Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Bits of me are trying to escape!

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

Come through the macabre curtain and enjoy this episode that goes... everywhere. Jane and Fi cover football hooliganism, spanks, Charlie, still escalators, Elon Musk and keep your ears peeled for detailed fish poaching instructions. Enjoy! Plus, Jane speaks to Kate Weinberg about her experience with long Covid and her new book 'There's Nothing Wrong With Her'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Okay, is some of you going to pop out? There are bits of me trying to escape, even as I speak. Do you know what? I think in my life I've never been more angry than when trying to get Spanx off me. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings.

So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar calendar double tap to open breakfast with anna from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone I always just say I did the BBC trading scheme I did the BBC local reporter scheme known as the TRS the trainee reporter scheme because the news trainee scheme is just the most insane roll call of every single successful visible journalist working in broadcasting now jonathan friedland matt fry did they all do okay yeah but the trs was fantastic it was just i think it was way more fun i don't think that matt fry and jonathan friedland were ever asked to hide under a table in Grafton House and pretend that they were witnessing a royal hostage situation, Jane.

Oh, my God. I think it shows in their work. What was that, day three of the training? It's about week six of seven. Well, I did apply for that course and I didn't get on it and I richly deserved not to get on it because in the part of the form where it said relevant experience, I had quite literally nothing to add oh but i still thought they'd somehow be able to detect my natural

ability and grasp at the opportunity to employ me funny that but they didn't they didn't fee no do you know what it was it was um those eight weeks were some of the best fun in my life. It was just superb. Because you would just play acting at being a journalist and then you were let loose and you had to do it for real. But it still exists, actually, that course. Oh, does it? I highly recommend it. Lots of them have been cut, but that one's still there. Oh, well, I'm glad to hear it.

Right. It's just worth saying that we've had loads of emails about surnames and much else besides. And actually, at the moment, we're in a period where we just cannot read all of them out. But please be aware that we are reading them. So we get an idea of what you're thinking, even if we don't read out every single email. And we do try and keep them for the email specials. So if you're waiting on tenterhooks thinking, but my one's better than than that then it may well crop up in weeks to come

although with a slight caveat that both jane and i slightly fail on the filing procedure needed for a really comprehensive email special because everything goes in our drawers and not everything comes out your drawers are far messier than mine my drawers are a disgrace they are they're very crammed I struggle to walk Sue says and this is worth noting not everybody enjoys anything we do but some of them keep on listening and Sue may be in that category

she does say I love the show so we'll take that thank you Sue two till four times radio live every day all the news that you can use and some you can't that's right I love the show but sometimes you're very condescending.

I'm 73, so I realise I'm a different generation. Well, you're very close to me, Sue, actually. But when I married, I was thrilled to take my husband's name, and I've kept the first envelope that arrived addressed to us as Mr and Mrs. I still feel that way, and I think you're very harsh to so-called stupid women who'd want to change their names. I don't think either of us

have called women who'd change their names stupid, but perhaps that's what's who thought we were thinking them to be. But I don't. Anyway, interestingly,

my daughter-in-law took my son's name, but my son-in-law took my daughter's name. So now we've-law took my daughter's name so now we've all got the same name wow that's handy well that's obviously a family that everybody is really really keen to join so good on you sue yeah absolutely sue uh and um we'd completely appreciate that we're very very irritating at times but i'm afraid that's all part of the package isn't it is yeah so you can always treat us as one of those friends

that sometimes you just have to put on pause for a couple of months, get back in touch, and maybe just leave on the double blue tick. Is that how it works? I never get my WhatsApp references right. No, I don't really understand that. But, yeah, we have all got friends, and we probably are these friends to other people who you can enjoy somebody's company immensely for a couple of hours but also just think god when's the uber coming and i'm not in too much of a hurry to see

them again but then you do find yourself wanting to see them again that's the way life works i would like to send enormous thanks to emma because she has sent us the definitive from the matriarch herself recipe for dealing with a whole fish in a fish poacher. Oh, thank heavens. So here we go. What was that fantastic mid-morning programme where they did recipes and news? Angela Rippon hosted it for a while. Judith Chalmers did. And they used to come through one of those kind of macrame beaded curtains.

Bring them back, by the way. When they wanted to go into a different segment. So we're going through the macrame beaded curtain into a little bit of cookery. So here we go. In water, put lemon, celery, bay leaf, pepper and parsley. I think I put it across two hobs, but it must be a very slow simmer. Handy tip here, if you're buying a whole salmon, Morrisons always have instructions on the bag.

That's handy to know, isn't it? If it's over five pounds, slow boil eight minutes to a pound. Under five pounds, ten minutes to a pound. Mostly I seem to have cooked it seven minutes to a pound. Keep up at the back. I'm terrified lots of people may overcook because of me and emma's put i doubt that very much uh have you got my fish poacher is the last part of the email from the matriarch to emma and emma's put in brackets this is bad news for my inheritance desires yes i hope you get something as well as the fish poacher emma but boy what a fish poacher

it will be thank you very much indeed for that the next time i buy a whole salmon that is the recipe that i will use but i need to inherit a fish poacher too because i don't have one well you can just come and take mine okay i've got one but i don't think i've ever used it i've just lent it to people over the years well that's the sensible thing to do we've got a street ice cream maker now isn't that a wonderful thing yes for a while we had a street cat carrier but now i've just bought a very cheap one Yes, for a while we had a street cat carrier, but now I've just bought a very cheap one. And actually Dora hasn't needed to go anywhere.

Okay, that's good, yeah. A friend of mine the other day, well last night in fact, suggested that Dora might have fleas, which I was horrified by and I've got some stuff arriving today. Okay, well that's very simple to deal with. I think she's got cat dandruff. Oh.

Which is just speckles of dry skin. I'm hoping. Do you think anyone makes haunch and shoulders? They could do, yes. Or perhaps she'd just benefit from some of the human shampoo? No, I don't think so. No, no, no. Dora is a woman.

Literally people are poised over the keyboard now, Jane. No. A woman of a certain temperament, I don't think she'd take well to a shower. Cats don't like water.ament, I don't think she'd take well to a shower. Cats don't like water. No, they don't. She sometimes takes a shred of interest when I'm hose-piping the, not the easy grass,

but my wonderful borders. Dear Jane and Fee just needed to highlight that the EFL, that is the English Football League season, actually starts this Saturday, the 10th of August. OK, look, I just overheard two blokes in the canteen. They were very, very sad because they didn't have any live sport to report on for a month. They may not have been from the football area of talk sport.

They were very sad about it. They just didn't want the Olympics to end. Neither do we. No, that's true. Helena is in Ealing. She describes herself as a long-time Charlton Athletics season ticket holder. Well, may Charlton have a decent season, Helena. I imagine you're probably looking forward to it starting.

There's a certain amount of talk today about the kind of crossover between far-right knuckle-dragging rioters and football. And I feel a bit defensive on the part of people like Helena and many, many more people like her who do go to football and have nothing to do with that kind of mindset, nothing at all. Anyway, I know there probably is a link, unfortunately, but if you are a season ticket holder of any football club and probably like Helena, you're really looking forward

to everything starting again, let us know what you think about that. Because last night, riots were predicted across England and they just didn't, they failed to materialise. Thanks in part, not just to the police, who we do need to acknowledge have really been up against it, but to people who turned out to counter-protest against the notion of... And there were thousands. And there were thousands of them.

So it was one tear love, wasn't it, on the streets because the criticism has been from Elon Musk, who we do need to talk more about, unfortunately, who was joining in the it's two-tier policing. Just go away. Go to space yourself. Why don't you just go to space yourself? Oh, God, that's a good idea. Yeah. Stop sending other people up and just try life on Mars.

Dear Jane and Fee, my Oxford University supervisor was Anthony Cockshut. Yes. Is this gentleman still with us? Well, very handily, Pauline has included a reference, so we're not making this up. Anthony Oliver John Cockshut, published as A. O. J. Cockshut, was a British academic and writer. He wrote extensively about 19th century English literature and also published books about the history of religious thought. Born in 1927, he attended Winchester College where he played cricket. That's according to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not always right, but we're going to use that

as our reference. But the point of reading this out is that the porter at his college, which was Hertford College, did the very best they could for him by calling him Mr. Koshu. And I really like that. Yes. I mean, is it true that people with the surname Onions

would sometimes ask to be called Onions? I've heard that before. But Onions isn't as bad as anything with cock before it, is it? It just isn't. And I wonder how you end up with that surname. I don't want to be unpleasant, but we all know we were discussing this today on the podcast, surnames all come from somewhere.

Where on earth did that one come from? Well, presumably kept chickens and kept them well. You would like to think so you definitely would um a listener in peterborough says i just wanted to say thank you to all the police officers on the front line of these awful riots i cry when i think about how awful they are i think it's shameful as the partner of a police officer i also know they do brilliant tough work it's not an easy job I do know they don't always get things right. And to the families of police officers, thank you too. We don't often think of them.

And not to sound all woe is me, I know I'm not the victim here, but we worry a lot. And it's just us picking up family life when our loved ones are doing extra shifts, when rest days are cancelled, and when any semblance of meaning to the term end of shift is just gone a job in the police is hard and not just for the one in the actual role if anyone is in the same boat as me i found the free family resources from the national police well-being service helped to save my marriage um so that's from a listener in Peterborough. And thank you for that. And that's something I didn't know about. So there you go. Free family resources from the National Police Wellbeing Service. It's true. I imagine if your partner or your parent is a police officer or

your child, you must just lie awake at night waiting for them to come back. It must be terrifying. Definitely. And it was a tiny point to make, wasn't it? But I think worth making that because these riots have happened across the summer and hot summer and started in just at the end of the first week of the summer holidays, so many police officers would have been told to cancel their leave.

And if you're the partner or the child of somebody, you've been looking forward to your summer holiday, you're all packed and ready. It's been keeping you going, you know, all the way through the previous months. Ouch, just ouch. So we should recognise that. Right, this is a very helpful one from a register, a registrar, sorry, Andy about the name game. Oh, yeah. Would you like to sit up because this is educational? Thank you very much indeed.

Dear Jane and Fee. I am wearing lots of supporting garments. Are you? Control panel. You're looking trim. Are you wearing skins? I'm in agony. Get on with it.

Is some of you going to pop out? There are bits of me trying to escape, even as I speak. Do you know what? I think in my life I've never been more angry than when trying to get Spanx off me. You know when you've just... I don't wear Spanx very often. I don't really wear it at all anymore.

Oh, I think I went through a phase of wearing them. Yeah, no, definitely. Have they gone out again? I think they have a bit, haven't they? Well, they've been replaced by Skims, by this incredible multi-million selling... Not everybody looks as good as... No.

Who was it who modelled them? A Kardashian. A Kardashian and the England player. Jack Grealish? No, not Jack Grealish. Bellingham. Jude Bellingham. Oh, I didn't know that.

How could you not know that? He was everywhere just before the... I didn't realise it was could you not know that he was everywhere just before the I didn't realise it was Skims it's been a long summer of sport sometimes I'm so bewildered by the image I don't read the brand right and that's not what they're after

is it no sorry about you completely missed anyway look back to Andy who says forever holding my peace as his sign off

that's P-E-A-C-E Andy don't be so naughty I've been a registrar for the past three years so free of charge i'm offering you a little insight to feed your married couple surnames debate i must stress that these are most definitely not official statistics they're simply estimates based on my own experience in three years i've registered something in the region of 400 marriages and i reckon 80 of brides have chosen to take their husbands names.

Of the remaining 20% some mainly older brides have opted to retain their own names. A few have double barrelled their names while others have said they'll decide later. I recall one solitary case of a husband taking his wife's name. While I'm certainly sympathetic to the view that the traditional British system has unfairly reinforced the patriarchy, I can foresee one hell of a problem in store for future generations of genealogists if we all choose to do our own thing. Does that matter in the grand scheme of things? Perhaps not.

Perhaps QR codes containing details of our lineage are the way to go, and then we could really go by any name we chose. I do think... That was sort of, I'm grateful to Andy because that backs up what I think I said, which is that still overwhelmingly most British women change their names. So the idea that this is something that most brides are wrestling with just isn't true.

They're not wrestling with it, they're just doing it. And also I do know people who've taken their husband's name but then quite frequently do, you know, they still use their old maiden name, I hate that term, their name at work or in other situations. And actually, sometimes I still get it wrong and still address Christmas cards using the non-married name. And also, I still, and you have this thing too, don't you?

I still get some Christmas cards. Unbelievable. And I still get a couple of kind of circular type things that are addressed to former versions of myself that I've never actually used myself. And I do look at it and I think, ooh, who's she? A question regarding the Olympics comes in from Pippa. Why do the women wear knickers several sizes too small

and yet the men wear knee-length shorts? I think this is a question worth asking because it is, it's pretty conspicuous that difference, isn't it? Isn't it just? Now, I know that the men's shorts are incredibly tight. I mean, I'm not making... Beyond skims.

Yes, way beyond skims. And I'm not just, you know, I'm not going to make a really fatuous remark here, but they are incredibly... Go on. No, unusually I won't. They are incredibly, they are remorselessly unforgiving. But these are such fit men that it doesn't make any difference.

But they are long. They're so much longer than what the women are required to wear. Now, could a woman just say, oh, could I just wear longer shorts, please? I wouldn't have thought that there's any rule about it. I would have thought it's absolutely a choice, but I'd be interested to know why. Because that kind of protection in the longer short when you're running, I'm at the edge of my boundaries of sporting knowledge here, Jane. But presumed it does help with any kind of...

It must be aerodynamic. It must be helpful. And also it must help if you're in a long race with chafing. And I'm not trying to be nasty here. No, chafing must be horrible. But I would have thought, you know, anything in that new, highly, you know, developed, designed, scientifically approved, you know, sporting kit.

It's all good. The email's from Pippa, is it? It is. Why I think Pippa's point is well worth making is that if you're a woman, a young woman who, or not even a young woman, who exercises on the streets, you have to be very careful about what you wear, don't you? You've got to be careful about where you run.

You've got to be careful about when you run. you've got to be careful about when you run, and I presume, because I've obviously never done it, you have to be a little bit careful about what you wear. So I wouldn't have thought you would choose to wear really... Well, it's basically a swimming costume that the female athletes are wearing on the track. But then in the pool, it's the other way round, isn't it? The women will wear a much longer knee-length skin,

as it's called. Yeah. And quite a lot of the blokes aren't. So look, obviously... Tell us. We don't know. We don't know. Unsurprisingly. Once again, we've found something

we don't know anything about. Can I just lob in my query about why some countries have got... So every country, apart from a few, and I'll try and think of the exceptions I saw, have got the name of their country in English on their shirt, on their singlet, whatever it is, so Great Britain. But Germany has got Germany.

It doesn't have... Alemannia or whatever. Or Deutschland, which is what they call themselves. Why is that? I think the Greeks have got Hellas written across their singlets, but other countries have just gone for the version of their nation's name in English. Is that an Olympic rule as well? Yeah, and also, I mean, there must be countries who are using a kind of Cyrillic script

who aren't asking their athletes to run in that. Maybe English is the official language of singlets. I don't know. No. So inform us if you can. Here's a funny one from Diane who would like a tote bag if there are any left. There certainly are.

I think you're in luck. For a while the pile of tote bags was overshadowing Eve and she couldn't get to a seat. And also, you do say, love the show, much funnier than when you were at the other place. Well, we're having a nice time, aren't we? And Diane says, regarding your recent perfume discussions, I'm sure you must remember Charlie.

Well, we certainly do remember Charlie. Nice bottle. I think someone who squirted a bit of Charlie on themselves in 1982 can probably still smell it. One day, a colleague of my husband's had a young junior office girl who had been given some for her birthday. She came in the next day and walked up to the boss and said, can you smell my Charlie?

As you can imagine, there were a lot of giggles. I don't think she had a clue. You get a tote bag. I had to be spoken to at work once. Did you, Jane? Yes, I did. Just once? Well, OK, on one occasion it happened to be about this

because I'd written the word Charlie on my hand to remind me that I had to pick up my neighbour's child from school. That was his name. I had forgotten him in the past, which is why I'd written it on my hand. And, yeah, a senior operative called me to one side and said, Jane, I don't think you should have that written on your hand. And I was really quite innocent. I think that tells you way more about the senior operative

than it does about you. That was the BBC, you see, a very racy and dangerous place to work. Yes. Right, I'm keeping all of your school uniform ones. I would just like to say thank you to Sarah for her one as well. And we are going to try and do something about that

maybe ahead of when schools go back. And I just want to bring in an email that is serious and I think other people will be able to relate to it. Our guest, by the way, today is Kate Weinberg, who is a novelist. She wrote a book called The Truants, which I've certainly read. It was very, very good. A little bit like Secret History, the Donna Tartt book. That's what it was compared to. Nothing can be like. Well, it was a bit like it. Anyway, Kate has actually had long COVID and she's written a novel about an imagined

experience of long COVID. But I think there'll be a lot of people listening who can relate to just what it's like to be ill, whether with long COVID or another really debilitating condition. So Kate Weinberg coming up, but this is an email which we'll keep anonymous. In light of recent events in our country, says our correspondent, where people are being hurt because of the colour of their skin or made to feel vulnerable. I wanted to share the trauma I've experienced over the last 15 years of living here. I moved to the UK to finish my postgraduate degree. I met my now husband. He's English and I'm Indian.

In the early years of dating him, meeting his parents was challenging. I felt like an outsider. And their humour, which they used to dismiss my culture and background, was passive aggressive. Despite being well versed in English literature my all-time favourite author was P.G. Woodhouse and understanding the very subtle acts of passive aggression my in-laws assumed I wouldn't notice their veiled comments and continued their behaviour. My husband once told me they said she's good for an Indian. This was 2009, and such jokes were unfortunately more accepted then.

Over the past decade and a half, there have been numerous instances of casual racism from my in-laws. My father-in-law once called me an immigrant as an insult when I mentioned that the Tories were exaggerating the number of immigrants coming to the UK. His response was, oh, we're just worried about you, not the other immigrants. Another time at the airport, he held up my Indian passport and joked to security, we have a terrorist here. These hurtful remarks, delivered as jokes in speech marks, are just a few of many similar experiences.

I won't read any more, but I do think it's a really important issue, this. And I know that this lady's parents-in-law are, yes, of a particular generation, but that's still inexcusable. And she does obviously say as well that her husband is in what she describes as a difficult position. I would never want him to have to choose between me and his family. And unfortunately, he's not very good with these conversations well yeah maybe it's I mean I don't want to criticise I don't know the man but maybe it is time he steps up and doesn't intervene on your behalf

because this is painful stuff and it's been going on for a long time and yes your in-laws are elderly but in the end you know that you know, we're all human, and I think it's gone on quite long enough, quite honestly. Anyway, I'm white, so what do I know? But it's janeandfie at times.radio. You can tell us if you've been in this position or what you think about what our listener can do

about the position she finds herself in. Yeah, I think we have discussed on the podcast before and sometimes i can't remember whether it was here or back at the old place when we weren't very funny when we were a bit dull there to be honest unfunny thank you for bearing with us um i think we did discuss a situation exactly that type of situation and we did ask our listeners what the best way is to explain to the person delivering those kind of asides or what they think of as you know high comedy moments what it is that you can say that actually makes a difference without causing even more offence or difficulty or whatever and we definitely had

some really really insightful replies from people as you've just said uh who are far more able to pass on decent information than we would be able to so we'll definitely definitely uh take some of those uh again if you emailed the podcast before about that feel free and i mean it's one of the joys of getting older isn't it Jane that I can't remember the plot in books I can't remember how Avera ends it just means that everything becomes available to you all over again I mean all the classics

What's on telly at the moment? Oh I'm just watching the Olympics I don't even want to think about because it finishes on Sunday Don't think about it So the TV people just haven't put anything on up against the Olympics I don't even want to think about it because it finishes on Sunday. Don't think about it. No, I can't. Don't think about it. So the TV people just haven't put anything on up against the Olympics and they never put anything good.

Nothing ever good starts in August on the TV and hopefully come September we'll have some luscious dramas. But I would recommend High Country. I know it didn't really float your boat. But I think it's a really good drama. I think the acting's really, really good. I really like the lead. I mean, it's a little bit spooky at times, but not too spooky.

Don't go on to Bromley again. The police officer. We're steering clear. Oh, funny enough. Oh, God. I went to Orpington last week. I went to see my friend Maria, and I'd like to say a huge hello to Maria. She's been through a terrible time, and she's the most wonderful woman. And I went to see her because

she is recovering from a medical, horrible, horrible medical incident in Orpington. And I hadn't been down that neck of the woods for a very long time. Genuinely, I don't know where it is. It's in Kent, but it's on the borders of London. So it is as you're driving out of London towards Kent. And I did have a choice to take the route that went through Bromley or to take the longer route. Yes, and? I took the longer route because I just didn't want to be spooked out by myself. All over again, just me and the skoda.

Anything could have happened. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening.

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There's more to iPhone. Do you mind if I finish by reading quite a long one from Lucy? Because I think Jane and I really, really agree with an awful lot of this and I think it needs saying. We have tried to divert from some of the more horrendous news around this week because it's been a bit cataclysmic. It's felt that way at times. But Lucy says,

I've spent the past two weeks glued to watching the Olympics and feel proud of what all our medal winners and those that didn't quite make it have achieved. And then the news comes on and it's endless pictures and films of useless, mindless white men throwing things and behaving in such a stupid way that I can't bear to watch. What on earth are they hoping to achieve and who do they think keeps our NHS going? The care system just about going, not to mention all of the other

professions that all colours, religions and ethnic groups fill. How can they tell people who were born in this country, were educated in this country, work and pay tax in this country to go home? It's beyond my comprehension and I feel the same as one of your correspondents about the Union Jack. Its symbolism has been hijacked without most of our consent and I now feel uneasy when seeing it up somewhere other than at the Olympics, when I still feel teary watching it go up and hearing the national anthem. The trouble is it doesn't matter what we say to each other on your brilliant podcast or to our friends and families. The thugs and idiots orchestrating and carrying out this rioting

won't hear and wouldn't care if they did. I feel ashamed of being British, and that's the first time I've ever felt that, as I do believe that we are generally a more open-minded and equal society than a lot of countries. It is just a few stupid, ignorant, beer-bellied, ill-educated men who like to fight. Sorry, rant over, but I do feel better.

And, Lucy, I think so many people have felt that. It's interesting that you feel a little bit uneasy about the whole Union Jack, because actually I think you were making the point about the flag of St George, which is raised in the name of all kinds of things that most people in the UK don't believe in. And the PS, I thought you might like to know

that when I'm on a journey somewhere with my husband, he'll often ask if there's a Fee and Jane episode to listen to. So we'd like a little treat, a little husband treat. What's Hubby's name we we don't know it won't mean much to you but that's high praise it means a lot because he generally listens to rugby motor racing cricket and other manly podcasts nothing manly about this one thank you for bringing us together he particularly appreciated the episode with mark cavendish which was a special one that we plonked in there

for all of the mammals out there. He is one of those middle-aged men who doesn't ever ride a bike, who worships Mark. Well, I mean, he's definitely not alone, is he? And actually, one of Mark Cavendish's biggest fans, I know, can't even ride a bike, and that is a stranger thing. He can't ride a bike? No, never learnt to ride a bike. Who is in stranger thing he can't ride a bike never learned to ride

a bike who is in that position well i'm not going to all right but i i think i'd love to hear from people who never learned to ride a bike well it's not the easiest thing to do it's not and i think it is way way more common than people think yeah I mean, a lot of people can't swim. I mean, that's plain dangerous, by the way, try and learn to swim. But riding a bike, you're right. I mean, you actually are reliant on someone being around to teach you how to ride a bike.

Very much so. And not everybody has. Not everybody has. And I think it's one of those things that then becomes incredibly embarrassing to admit to. And it becomes difficult to solve. And, you know, who wants to be the adult doing all of that wobbling on and you know i mean you can't get a big bite with stabilizers can you you can't and actually we would laugh wouldn't we and we shouldn't if we do see an adult wrestling

with stabilizers i remember i remember the moment my stabilizers came off absolutely 2012 was a great year for everybody actually you just because you've got us onto cycling i just want to bring in victoria very quickly before we get onto kate weinberg because she's had an encounter with a cyclist and an olympian to boot oh um so let's take some of your olympian encounters if you've met an olympian past or present we'd love to hear about it um i mean kate she does sorry, Victoria, does sound like very much one of our listeners. She was in London having lunch at the now defunct Jamie Oliver's, just off Piccadilly.

We were going to the theatre afterwards and saw a very good version of The Glass Menagerie. Did you see that? No, darling. The set was extraordinary. A reflective black floor that seemed to float on the stage. Wonderful. Back to the lunch, though. We were just finishing our meal to float on the stage. Wonderful. Back to the lunch, though. We were just finishing our meal when I saw Bradley Wiggins. I've really

made a meal of this. I saw Bradley Wiggins come into the restaurant. He was taller than me. I'm five foot six and very skinny. He was still waiting to be seated as we left. However, the queue he was in was very close to the rather heavy glass door. As we went to go past him, the door swung back onto me and I had to catch it and heave it to get through. But in the process of this, I fell into Bradley's quite bony elbow and ricocheted off through the door. I then got a fit of the giggles. I was in my 50s, much to the embarrassment of my daughter. I risked a quick glance back to see what was happening in my wake just to see Bradley gazing bemusedly out of the door, never to be forgotten as my claim to fame. Out of interest, she goes on to talk about hillbilly elegy

and says the airport in Little Rock, Arkansas, is called the Bill and Hillary Clinton National Airport, but is known locally as the Hillbilly Airport. Thank you. And we've gone all over the place there, Victoria, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you. And we've gone all over the place there, Victoria, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you very much indeed. The Bill and Hillary Clinton National Airport.

That's a bit of a mouthful, isn't it? I mean, call it after. Just call it the Clintons. Yeah, well, of course, that's not her real name, is it? No, it's not. No. Which we've gone full circle, and that's why this is a very skilfully produced

podcast. Yes, it is. Let's bring in Kate Weinberg. I was a big fan of Kate Weinberg's first novel, The Truants. And now her second novel is out. And it isn't quite what I was expecting. And to be fair, it's not what she expected to be writing either, because she has been through long COVID. Now her new novel is called There's Nothing Wrong With Her and it takes us right to the heart of that pretty unpleasant experience. The central character Vita is struck down with long Covid and she's marooned in bed with her relatively new doctor boyfriend hovering and her goldfish Whitney Houston keeping her company. I asked Kate if she'd ever actually been diagnosed

by a doctor with long Covid. No it's such a good question and doctors will say if you've had certain symptoms for more than 12 weeks after Covid then you've most probably got long Covid but one of the big problems about it is there isn't actually something to measure it and diagnose it, which is why you then get into this whole world of perception and being nervous about what people think, including doctors and those around you. And you begin to doubt yourself yes so in the novel i had this metaphor which is the central idea of the book which is vita this young woman who's got a lot of other things going on and relationships and that are under question and um new neighbors moving in upstairs and a ghost who's appeared at the end of her bed and a goldfish and a gold goldfish called Whitney Houston, who I'm quite pleased about. But I had her slipping in and out of the pit

and the pit is basically long COVID and then all the despair and fear that comes with an illness that's invisible and you're not sure that people believe. And the image for me was like a, I had it as a sort of inverted volcano and at the top level, you had the pain and the physical symptoms and then in the middle as it's sort of getting hotter

and more narrow and constricting, you have all the voices around you of people you love and doctors and friends and the voices in your head and worrying what they're saying about you. And then the real bogeyman at the bottom of the pit is your own self-doubt because doubt, I think, is really contagious. That was something I really experienced and I wanted Vita to experience was right at the bottom is your own sense of trust

and the kind of gaslighting effect of the illness. If you don't mind, I mean, obviously the book is, I should say the book is really, and it's, there are fun elements in here as well. I didn't know this Italian chap, Luigi, who apparently wrote the original version of Romeo and Juliet. So there's something for everyone in here. There really is. But it's just worth saying that, I mean,

I don't suppose anyone's experience of COVID is I don't think you can generalize but you first became ill in the November of 2020 2020 so first year of the pandemic yeah a grim time for everyone yeah what happened to you so um the short version is I had quite a mild brush with COVID. Or so you thought. Or so I thought. And then a couple of weeks later, when I thought I was getting better, I'd lost my taste and smell, but I was not feeling terrible. I went for a run. And after that, I was knocked out.

And I then had four and a half months in bed where going to make a cup of tea was incredibly hard and um my doctor told me not to take more than 500 steps a day so it was a really um it was like an underwater period and i went in and out of consciousness in this place i think of as um a pit um but the problem is i can hear myself as i'm talking about it. I think, you know, we talked about people switching off when they hear the words long COVID. I think it's a bit like telling people about your dreams. I just think that it's one of those things. And I do that, Kate.

Do you? I actually quite want to hear about your dreams. I'm not sure. You or anyone else does. But so there, yes, I mean, I want to, so what's so intriguing is that you thought you'd had COVID and we all had COVID around that time or shortly afterwards. Most of us, you know, it was a grim couple of weeks, but you're back up and running. With you, there were these symptoms that you couldn't, the tingling, for example.

Yeah, the numbness and tingling, which then, which were fine and just annoying. which were fine and just annoying but what really put me in bed were these full body aches really really painful Or everywhere, arms, legs? Yeah they would start off in my legs and then they would basically wash through me I could feel them going up through me

and then this word fatigue that people throw around with Covid and I think if you've had a hefty dose of long COVID or any other of these invisible illnesses that are so awful, fatigue is such an irritating word because it feels like a full body poisoning. And you can't, sometimes lifting your hand is impossible. And I just think it's one of those minimising words that often doctors will use and

then it's got into the cultural mainstream, but I think it's really unhelpful. Did a doctor attempt to dismiss you? So the book is called There's Nothing Wrong With Her and no one actually said, no one that I know, Jane, said there's nothing wrong with her but it was very much and some doctors were really supportive but there were doctors that made me feel it was in my head and that you know that I was possibly had some lingering effects from Covid but that somehow I was neurotic about it and that those were making those symptoms worse. And actually, since the release of the book on social media, there'll be trolling that happens around this.

People will have a go at you. They'll have a go and just say, look, it's a laziness. I got one saying, you know, this is a middle-aged white woman's, a lazy middle-aged white woman's grab for pity. And people, there just is the sexism and stigma of the illness is quite prevalent. Is it true that it does appear to impact women more than men? It does, and particularly middle-aged women.

And there is a lot of research being done around how the menopause and hormones affect your immune system and therefore long COVID. There's another cohort, as it happens, teenagers that get really badly affected. So I've, you know, this is completely my guesswork, but I've always assumed that there's a hormonal link there. And people who are prone to any autoimmune illnesses. It's like a hyperactive immune response rather than a weakness and I found it really helpful to think of that as my immune system as this sort of overexcitable thing rather than this rather pathetic,

weak thing that keeps on being knocked to the ground. Is this the first illness you've had? Yeah, my God, I've been such a healthy and sort of sickeningly um sort of upbeat healthy person so you're not given to no and one of the really irritating things you get trolled around is yes but you just want you you basically want to rest from your life you can't you want to duck out of your responsibilities and get some pity. And actually, I really love my life and I've got amazing family and my career had really been starting to kick off. So there was so much that I wanted to be up and living for.

So, yeah, there's that idea that it's really just a way of sort of taking quite a few sick days in a row. And what was it like for your family? Do you mind mind me asking how old were your children when you first got ill um eight and ten a bit older now um it was locked down so we were all stuck in that sense together and it's really tough on people around you so you know the book is concentrating on this um this young woman but also the a relationship she has it's quite a new relationship isn't it it's a new relationship and her boyfriend is a doctor which is obviously no accident and i'm exploring the nuance of that dynamic there um and how uh max this doctor character, is definitely not a villain. And I think there's a lot of people in the medical world

who are really trying to get on the front foot about this now. I mean, very late, centuries too late for a lot of women in particular. But things are on the move. But I think there's still so much to do in terms of just really accepting the fact that some illnesses can't be measured and can't be seen and that just because somebody can't show you their wound yes can't exhibit their symptoms beyond being too tired to move doesn't mean you shouldn't give them some sympathy

but but i mean i've got to be honest with you i'm probably i'm not one of life's i try to you know i have had to care for people am I any good at it well I haven't really been tested is the honest truth um people get a bit sick of people who are sick don't they they get completely sick and then that comes back to the thing about you know people's listening to you bang on about your dreams or something I think it's helpful to not just think of a sick person as someone who's a bit boring and smelly and stuck in the bed somewhere and and life has just stopped for them and you have to somehow drag yourself to the sick room and and visit but that actually that person's uh inner world is incredibly heightened

at the time and there's so much going on that's why this book is so it takes you into that world well that that's what i i i realized in the illness is that, it takes you into that world. Well, that's what I realised in the illness is that it basically cracks you open and your relationships and your perspective on your job and your purpose. And so I explored all this through romantic possibilities and a goldfish at the end of her bed. I just wanted all of that world to feel quite vivid and alive rather than static and and sort of switched

off do you um go about life in a different way now are you forever changed by this because the truth is you're still not a hundred percent well are you no um my the spiel i have is that i'm 90 well and and how did you get well, by the way? It's such a complicated jigsaw puzzle. But no, it's, you know, I'd love to just briefly mention that for me, it was absolutely a physical illness and in no way in my head. But the recovery process was partly physical and partly about how I approached it as well. So my mindset, by which I don't mean that the illness was in my head, I just mean that how I approached my recovery

was a psychological thing as well as a physical thing. But there was no quick fix? You didn't meet a miracle doctor who could give you the right vitamins? No, I didn't meet a miracle doctor who could give you the right vitamins no I didn't meet a miracle doctor but I did meet some incredibly helpful people along the way um and I am on some anti-inflammatory medication and I do a lot of things I've I've tapered my diet and my lifestyle and I have mindset coaching around visualisations and how I can kind of deal with my symptoms when they come up. And all of those things are like this sort of giant 3D jigsaw puzzle

that you start to assemble for yourself. And because the illness is so bespoke and hits everyone so differently, you have to make your own jigsaw puzzle and try and put it together in a different way. And you'd be the first to admit, I imagine, that you have resources that some people wouldn't have. Yes, absolutely. And, you know, amongst them, a family.

I mean, I kept on thinking of single women, particularly with children, no partners. I had a job which the publishers were able to put my work on hold and I was under contract for my next book. If I hadn't had all that support system around me, I just don't know how I would have been able to put myself back together. And do you, and do people like you, do you care about where covid came from

i'm i'm always i'm always slightly boggled by for a while we seem to be interested in the origins of covid and then it all just got too murky and too complicated and we've all just stopped asking but it's still impacting on so many lives it is i's really interesting. I don't think of the origin story particularly as something that interests me. I think there's so much conspiracy around it and I think that when anything happens that's a world event, people try and find something

slightly more sensationalist to pin it on. But I am thinking constantly of the fact that it's not over for so many people and um it's mostly over for me but there are so many people who are in stuck in the pit and um they they may have tried all the things i've tried and they're still not finding their clambering out and their bodies just not letting go of it for whatever reason. So yeah, I think the kind of where it's heading towards and how people see it interests me more than where it came from. Kate Weinberg, I hope that gave comfort to some people who are still enduring long COVID because it's very much around and I think it

must be agony if you've been there or if you're still there and you're just not getting the amount of sympathy and support you might feel quite justifiably that you're entitled to. Kate Weinberg's book is called There's Nothing Wrong With Her and it's out now. If you would like to email the podcast it will always be janeandfee at times.radio. We have kept all of your applications for tote bags we will do those in parish notices at the beginning of next week we did one yesterday so it will be at the end of next week thank you very much eve we couldn't do this without eve and so do be in touch with us if you'd like to one final plea for me Does anybody else find it excruciating to walk down escalators that have stopped? I almost today couldn't do it because I think

some of them, Jane, the steps are the wrong height. There's a height that steps are at and it's bigger. It's bigger. I tripped up an escalator yesterday. Was it moving? It was moving. Oh, that's very dangerous. And at my age, you're getting to the stage where people are going to have to start,

they're going to talk about you having a fall. Yeah. So anyway, yes, I'm sure somebody will be able to, I'm less worried about what you're troubled by, but life generally is full of risks and jeopardy. Not so much in my life, if I'm honest with you. I try and avoid both.

Jane and Fia at times.radio. Goodbye. Congratulations. congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another off air with jane and fee thank you if you'd like to hear us do this live and we do do it live every day monday to thursday two till four on times radio the jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.