Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Bonnet work on OnlyFans? (with Jo Hamilton)

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

Hello sailor! Welcome to Wednesday's episode. The heat is getting to Jane and Fi... they chat Dubai chocolate, hanxiety, and fridge magnets. Plus, former sub-postmaster Jo Hamilton speaks about her book 'Why Are You Here, Mrs Hamilton?: The Post Office Scandal and My Extraordinary Fight for Justice'. If you want to come and see us at Fringe by the Sea, you can buy tickets here: www.fringebythesea.com/fi-jane-and-judy-murray/ And if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is: Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] next book club pick has been announced! We’ll be reading Leonard and Hungry Paul by Rónán Hession.Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

She might have been on this morning. She might have been on the guest list for Jeff and Laura's wedding. You mean you never know? Jane Austen, yes. Okay, you think she'd have been on this morning? I don't. And she's got a new book out. Here she is, in her bonnet. From frontline investigations to the corridors of power, the Times and Sunday Times are on the ground, taking you to the heart of the story for 240 years. So you can keep up on the issues that matter at a time when trusted journalism

has never mattered more. And for a limited time only, you can subscribe for just £1 for four months. Times change. The Times remains. 18 Plus New Customers Only. Offer ends 5pm June 30th. £1 for four months. £26 a month thereafter. T's and C's apply. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Thomas Fudge's Biscuits. We've got a bit of a reputation, haven't we Jane? Our desk here at Times Towers is pretty famous for having the most delicious sweet treats in the office. Yep, guilty as charged. But we're not into any old treats, no sir, only the most elevated biscuit makes the grade. Because we're so

classy. May we introduce you to Thomas Fudges, born from the expert British craftsmanship of inventive Dorset bakers in 1916. Thomas Fudges' Florentines are an indulgent blend of Moorish caramel, exquisite almonds and luscious fruits draped in silky smooth Belgian chocolate. Oh you've said a few key words there Fee. Exquisite, Moorish, exactly the way my colleagues would describe me I'm sure. Did you say sophisticated? I didn't but I can. Just like the biscuits you're very sophisticated darling. And like you Thomas Fudges believes that indulgence is an art form and it should be

done properly or not at all, Jane. I concur. Thomas Fudges. Hats off to remarkable biscuits. Greetings everybody. Welcome to an extremely hot podcast. So it was 28 degrees in my bedroom this morning, Jane, when I woke up. Was it really?

Yes, I can't be the central. How had the night been? The night had been a little bit, it had been a bit stuffy. So I'm sure that lots of other people share this dilemma, live on quite a noisy street with a pub dispensing happy people late into the evening. Let's just leave it there. Oh actually yeah, I'd forgotten about that. So do you do that or do you shut your windows and gently broil all night? Well the rule is you've got to shut the windows during the day, is that right?

Keep the curtains shut or the blinds down, don't open the windows during the day and then you are allowed to open them in the early evening aren't you? Well yes but that's the problem isn't it? What about earplugs? So I have done the earplugs, I'm on silicone earplugs at the moment but I might go for those specially crafted designed to fit your personal ear. Moulded. Moulded, thank you, that's the word I was struggling to find.

Because I think we've got a long summer ahead of us, haven't we? It's beginning to look like we might have in more ways than one. So, yes, we've got to be prepared for all of that. And there's a story doing the rounds today, isn't there, about how we might be facing summers that are regularly about 40 degrees in this country within 10 years and we just can't say that often enough. We've stopped talking about climate change quite a lot recently. I've never, I don't understand why we have because I was saying actually to my dad last night that it is in the time I've lived in London so I've lived in London now for 30 years, the summers have just got hotter and hotter and hotter and you feel it more in

big city obviously, of course you do. Back home on the Mersey River area, it's just, I've looked at the forecast, it's a very pleasant sort of 23, 24 Celsius and sunny for the next couple of weeks. Well, that's lovely and that's ideal and you've got the the Irish sea breeze blowing in. So that's fine but to be in a hot, hot, stuffy city of what 11 million people? It's no joke is it? It's no joke and you and I've got houses that we have some kind of temperature control over as well. If you're in a flat, which has been built with those super glass windows, that you really can't do anything. You can't air, you can't get a breeze going through if you're the south-facing one with a great big plate glass window all

day because you can't go out and leave your door open, can you? We did do an interview, didn't we, relatively recently about the other design of contemporary new builds. Yeah, it's just rubbish. It's pretty rubbish for extreme weather. Yeah, it's daft. Yeah, really daft. If you look at what is going to happen. So we just need to carry on mentioning that, don't we?

Because we're still stuck in quite a weird British age when we discuss the weather in this country. Yeah, we are a bit, aren't we? And I think we just need to get a little bit cannier about it. But do you know what? Correspondents previously have also noted that we can be a little bit Luddite when we talk about things like electric cars when we discuss our range anxiety. Luddite, are we? Yes, I know, it's very hard to believe.

We've got a very firm grasp of technology. Actually, that gives me a wonderful window to say that our guest today is Joe Hamilton, who is somebody at the very heart of the post office scandal here in the UK. I'm just thinking, do we need to explain to listeners outside the UK what this is? It's just, it's one of the biggest scandals in contemporary British history, and it involved the serial gaslighting effectively of a doubty group of individuals, I think nearly a thousand of them, who had run post offices in this country. I mean the post office, it sounds benign and going in, popping into the post office is something that we've all done throughout

our lives and will do no doubt in the future. But these people were victims of effectively a computer accounting system that just went completely belly up. And so many of these people ended up being accused of being thieves, frankly, stealing from their own employer, stealing from their customers as well, stealing from us, the taxpayer. And they hadn't done anything of the kind. They were just victims of an appalling computer glitch effectively. So Jo Hamilton is, she was, her character featured in the award-winning ITV drama Mr Bates vs the Post Office. That's it, Mr Bates vs the Post Office. And Jo was played by the great Monica Dolan in that drama. And anyway, I really want people to just hear what it's like to be from her,

what it's like to be at the very center of something when you believe, or you're made to believe that you are the only one. And there were so many others. I mean, the stories are really heartbreaking. And people took their own lives because of the damage done to their reputation. You're one moment at the heart of a local community and the next moment people are thinking

that you have taken them for a ride within the local community. And actually you've been fiddling the books, you're not who you said you were, you know, incredibly difficult stuff. And the company responsible, which is ultimately Fujitsu, isn't it, was very, very slow to take responsibility, to offer, to help, and to admit that there was something going wrong with the technology. You know, computer says no, computer says no. It's very easy to say, actually, it's just the way you're doing it, just the way you're doing it.

Oh, it'll be you. You don't understand it. And of course, you can say that to people people because for an awful lot of us our knowledge about computers doesn't enable us to say actually I know that I'm doing it right. We have so much self-doubt. But do you know what I did think whilst reading Jo's book, how difficult it must be to imagine the other life that you could have had over the last 10 years or so. The life that didn't have all of this in it. The life that you just had the energy to do other things. Yeah, because so much headspace would be consumed. I mean it's just, it's really hard to imagine that isn't it? What's been taken away.

She had real life trundling on as well. So she had children, she had parents who were hugely supportive but getting older, they had heart health issues that she had to, so basically the stuff of middle age life and then all this going on as well. Yeah and she's got the OBE now and so officially she's, it's all over except it'll never be over. So anyway we haven't actually done the interview yet so it'll be really interesting to hear what she says about it. Yeah but it is, you're right, it's important to listen to. Shall we leap in some of our wonderful emails? A belated postcard from a special road trip comes in from Sharon Shaughnessy. That's nice isn't it that name? It really works. It does. I hope I'm not too late. You're never too late. Speed is not what this podcast

is about Sharon. I've put a postcard in the mail today from hot, sunny New Mexico. Mexico! Can you do any better accent? That's not an accent but it's a thing and I think people will have appreciated your effort. Thank you. Not sure how long it'll take to arrive. Did you receive any other postcards from New Mexico? Not yet, no. I'm wondering if there are many listeners here. I went on a special road trip to a tourist spot, i.e. Tacky Roadside Attraction, to get the postcard. Well, you're all love, aren't you Sharon? I also got to try my first Dubai chocolate bar at this Tacky Roadside Attraction and I wasn't overly impressed. Right TBD, maybe

just the fact that I was melting in the 100 degree desert heat made it unappealing. I should have gone with my original instinct and had the homemade pistachio ice cream. That's enough pistachio hints about where I went. Well Sharon we're with you on that. I mean Dubai chocolate is just really really really leaving me cold. You've tried it? I haven't tried it. Oh, OK. So go on, tell me. Well it is, it's milk chocolate that's got a pistachio filling inside and it's been done

very cleverly. So it's always green, isn't it? The packaging is always this kind of lime green so you can really spot it on the chocolate shelves and it became a thing on the TikTok, I believe, and suddenly everybody had to have it and then they did that very, very clever thing where supermarkets said it was in such short supply. Can we have that noise again? Excellent noise. It was in such short supply, customers were only allowed to buy one bar because it was so very very very popular.

What impact did that have? Well it sent sales shorting through the roof. I can't believe it did it. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. Isn't it just? People still fall for it. Isn't it just? Guinness is running out. Is it then? Oh yeah we had that debate. Guinness shortage. What will there be a shortage of next do you think?

This podcast. Oh yes. Yeah, so you'd better go back and listen to absolutely every single one of them. Just leave us on repeat overnight, just in case we're going to run out. Because it could run out. I sometimes think that about books. That's why I've always got a big stockpile of books. What, you think people will have used all the words? Maybe, all the words will be gone and there won't be any books. So I better just make sure I've got loads in case they all sell out.

Do you really think that's about books? I think there is a part of me that does think that. Of all of the shops on the high street I go into, I never go into a bookshop and think this is sparse. I know, there's just books everywhere. There's nothing logical about these feelings. Now, a lot of people have emailed to say how sympathetic they are towards Michelle and

her truly dreadful mother of the bride dress shopping experience. This is from Anonymous. Our daughter also getting married later this year and I made the mistake of entering one of those shops in the town, our town, without an appointment. What is this appointment thing? It's ridiculous. It is absolutely ridiculous. How very dare I commit such an offence apparently.

After being chastised by the snooty sales assistant, I glanced across at a customer who was being subjected to similar treatment as mentioned by Michelle. The poor woman looked miserable and I politely declined the invitation to make an appointment of my own. In fact, I couldn't get out of there fast enough. I really don't understand why when our offspring get married we have to obey some unwritten rule about dressing in the type of clothing we'd normally avoid at all costs in order to participate in such a happy event. Of course, I know that some people love this look and if so, that's great. After my near miss in this

formal wedding attire shop, I decided to go to our daughter's wedding dressed as myself. I went to one of my favourite shops where they couldn't have been more helpful. I got a lovely outfit after looking at all the clothes in the shop with no charge, trying on as many clothes as I wanted, no restrictions, and with absolutely no pressure to buy anything. The outfit I chose makes me feel comfortable and happy and my very stylish daughter has given it a resounding thumbs up. Well that's brilliant. It is. Really fantastic. And that's exactly what we were saying. It's just this weird event where suddenly you're expected to wear a really kind of tight fitted jacket and a pencil skirt and you've suddenly got a hat that you know the size of Gibraltar stuck on top of your head and some pinchy pointy shoes. I mean that's just a lot to take on board if usually you've got a nice elasticated waist and some

trainers and a loose fitting top. I mean it's just so bloody uncomfortable. It's bonkers. I mean why not dress as our correspondent says, as yourself, rather than as, you know, I don't know, Mrs. Slocombe from Are You Being Served going to Ascot. You know, just completely, just be you. Very much. And surely if it is your daughter getting married then she'd just want you to be comfortable and happy. I mean most of the time my daughters seem to want me to be comfortable and happy. I mean, most of the time, my daughters seem to want me to be comfortable and happy. Yeah. Perhaps that's an exaggeration. Yeah, I just, I'm not an enormous fan

of the very, very formal wedding. I find lots of elements of it just a little bit weird. Don't get me started on the patriarchy this early in the day in the seat. No, I tell you what, I'll get married a couple more times and then I'll let you know. Give it a while.

See how you feel. That's what I say for a wedding. I've got to be know. Give it a while. See how you feel. That's my favourite option. I've got to be honest. I think maybe on a rollercoaster in Vegas next time. I tell you what. Have you been married by Elvis? No, I've not been married by Elvis. Well, you there you go.

Exactly. I've got an awful lot of options coming up. Or maybe we'll go to Venice and we'll book out the whole of Venice and we'll expect every Venetian to be really pleased that we're there. And the protests that are coming for the Jeff Bezos, Lauren Sanchez wedding. They are brilliant actually, aren't they? When is this bloody wedding? I think it's on the 24th? Is it sometime next week? So the gondoliers, quite a lot of them have ganged up and they are going to barricade some of the canals.

There have been great big banners unfurled saying, no thanks Jeff Bezos, we don't want you here. A lot of the shops are simply going to shut and an awful lot of people are simply going to stand in the way. So it's just crazy. All bodes well, doesn't it? It does, doesn't it? But what, I'm sorry, but what a knob end to think that you can basically just book a city for your wedding that you've got no real connection to. No, that is odd, isn't it?

At all. Invade it for the weekend. Is there the possibility that Mr Bezos has lost touch with the reality? Well, quite possibly, yeah. There are lots of very, very catty articles being written about this and I highly recommend reading every single one of them. That reminds me, it's Sarah Vine on the podcast tomorrow. Carry on. His luxurious super yacht, you know the one that's got a very voluptuous woman on the front. What do you call that, you know, when there's a figure of a lady on the front of the bow's sprit? Oh God. Is it a ship's mascot? I don't know.

I think it's got a proper... They're an official term. He's going to tell us. But he's got a great big super yacht and it's got one of those on the front. A busty lady. Yes. And in an interview, the interviewer said to him once, oh, you know, is this a depiction of your fiance on the front? And he said, no, it's not because basically if it were, she'd have bigger and he made the melon signs with his hands.

And I just thought what a classy man. He sounds lovely doesn't he? It's such a shame he's going to be off the market in a couple of weeks. But this great big superyacht is too big to go into the lagoon so it's basically being parked by the equivalent of a great big Aldi supermarket somewhere an awful lot further down the line. Do you think with the sheer size of his super yacht he's trying to make up for the relatively puny proportions of something else? A little bit like his rocket? I think that would be a dreadful, dreadful stereotype change. No, no, no, I'm sorry.

And I'm really ashamed of you for saying that because you've lowered the tone of what is often a very high-brow intellectual discussion. So yeah, best of luck to them, I hope it goes extremely well. She doesn't mean either of those two things. No I don't, I just think it's atrocious, I think it makes a mockery of love. They're just called figureheads. Thank you Eve. Yeah thank you. Hello sailor. Okay, but does every ship have one of these? No, I mean I don't think, no I don't think the ferry going from Southampton to Shanklin is fun. Is that your favourite crossing? No, I don't think it does go to Shanklin anyway.

Okay, this is a crevice in a niche. We're not going to go any further with this. No, I love our crevices and niches, they're very good. Shall we turn our attention to Fridge Magnus? Yes, why not? So, I think I've got your stack of emails, because you've put I agree wholeheartedly at the bottom of this one. No, that isn't my writer. Is it not?

No. Is that you? Is it? Eve, it's lovely to see you on the page. We've worked together for 150 years and she still doesn't recognise my handwriting. Anyway, press on. Well, that might be the lack of cards and invitations. Oh God! Dear Fian Jane, Anna, you're very welcome.

Longtime listener, first time caller, in brackets, Reedy Oboe Whale, please. Can you do one? Mmmmm. I was wondering about the impact of the rise of fitted kitchens and its impact on fridge magnet industry. I personally love a magnet and I buy one at every place I visit, that's what Jane does too, but everyone I get for as a gift seems to have a fitted kitchen which have woodenish fronts thus rendering the magnets devoid of purpose and only good for demotion to that drawer in the kitchen. Have you also found this to be a problem?

I'm sad to see the great loss of the art of the magnet. See my personal masterpiece below." And you've got a cracking fridge freezer going on there, Anna. And it's got a delightful amount of magnets on it. I think Anna might have the same fridge freezer as me? Yes, I only say that because it's relatively hard to get a fridge freezer that tall and that thin and I've only got a very specific space and it looks like Anna has the same issue. And it's a big fridge to freezer ratio, isn't it? Yeah. I don't like that. Oh, right. Well, Anna, can I just say, like I say, I think I'm with you, we've got the same, the same appliance.

I don't buy fridge magnets for other people, I buy them for myself, Anna, you sound like a very kindly person who's distributing them as gifts, I mean, they're purely for my own fridge. Perhaps we should do a little, I might do an image for the Insta of the current fridge magnets on my fridge. Some can be somewhat distasteful. Tracy has sent us one which is, well I thought it said Donald and that conjured up all kinds of hideous thoughts, but I think it actually says David, that one, that fridge magnet of male genitalia which we certainly wouldn't want to see on fridges. Oh good god, now I would find that a little bit difficult on a daily basis to be greeted by that, especially at eye level. Well, little bit difficult on a daily basis to be greeted by that especially at eye level. Well it wouldn't be at eye level for you love would it? Right, no.

Spell yourself. On the subject of Jane's fridge magnets says Tracy, when the kids were small we started a tradition of buying the tackiest magnet we could find on every holiday. It caused much amusement and debate over the years and the results always make me smile when I go to the fridge. To be honest, when I go to the fridge I'm pretty much always smiling because I'm about to enjoy the taste of a slice of cheese. That's me talking, not Tracy. Now two of our children are in their twenties. They still add to our collection even when we're away with friends, even when they're away with friends, sending teaser photos during

their holidays. Elders has decided to lower the tone. I'm not sure Michelangelo would approve of David's nether regions on a kitchen appliance. You know what, we'll never know what was going through Michelangelo's mind when he created that work of genius, but it's fair to say that he won't have thought that one day that he won't have thought that one day he would find his creation on the side of an appliance to keep food cool and fresh. No, but I think he'd be delighted. Do you think? I think so, yep. My favourite says Tracy has to be the cheese fondue magnet that we bought earlier this

year. Please see attached. Yes, I mean that's nice. And if you look closely, you'll even see an I love livable magnet. Oh, wonderful. Yeah, you know, that that whole business, I do think it's a bit of a it's a mind spin for me that some of these fantastic creators will have no idea hundreds of years down the line how their work is being used or enjoyed. I mean, I always think of poor old Jane Austen, you know, working away in some freezing old vicarage and having no idea that hundreds of years later millions of people would still enjoy what she was writing.

And it's often been written about in biographies, isn't it, that actually she probably would have struggled with the notion because she wasn't writing to be you know a best-selling top of the charts. She'd never heard of Emma Thompson or Keira Knightley or Hugh Grant or Colin. She wanted to tell the stories of her world didn't she so she might not have I think she would have been a bit of an Anne Cleves, you know, enjoying her success in different ways, not visible ways, just being good and decent and whatever. But she might have been on the guest list for Geoff and Laura's wedding. Jane Austen, yes. You'd think she'd have been on this morning.

I don't. And she's got a new book out. Here she is. In her bonnet. She might have confounded us. We might have put her in that box of being shy, modest and retiring and actually she might have been straight to OnlyFans. We don't know, do we?

I think the concept of bonnet work on OnlyFans. It'll be there somewhere Jane. Probably, I'm afraid you're right. It probably will be there. Oh my god. I know. But the truth as well is that the world of culture is now full of people who do truly believe that they are creating stuff that will last for hundreds of years. And they're wrong, yes. And they're kind of telling us that in their every Instagram post and utterance, aren't they? Actually, that's such an interesting point.

It's nauseating. Yeah, it is nauseating. And how will that naval-gazing tosh, we're an exception, be viewed hundreds of years from now. Well I don't suppose it will be viewed. Well will it though? It might be. Will people go back and look at old Instagram posts? Yeah they will, they'll write PhDs about it in 2390. Okay, there's a very interesting museum isn't there of the internet over in the America where they've actually managed to screen grab and keep links to lots of websites that have been shut down and censored. I think that's very interesting you want to look

at the stuff that now you're not allowed to look at that history has denied you access to but all the guff I mean really all the love islanders are people going to be going back through that? And maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm just being too highbrow. I think the idea of people hundreds of years from now studying two herbits on a sunland, telling each other they've got vibes. Yes. Surely that won't be happening.

Hello to Maggie who says, I was interested to hear about the guidelines on alcohol. This is this new notion from the World Health Organization, no less, that alcohol for women should be limited to six units a year, wasn't it? Yeah. Now, Maggie says, I don't have a drink problem, fortunately for me. I was just a social drinker, but I've now been alcohol free for three years. I had had a couple of episodes of seriously dark depression the day after good fun evenings when I'd been drinking alcohol and so I just did a cost benefit analysis.

So in a nutshell, says Maggie, I now sleep really well, no wakeful anxiety. I have reduced my risk of cancer, 100,000 deaths a year are linked to alcohol consumption. I love sober dancing. Mindful drinking of alternatives on a night out can make it fun. There are great online communities for support. I look younger and it's harder to gaslight me now." She says, oh that's interesting. You only have to look in a card shop to know that alcohol is an entirely acceptable drug. Prosecco, Princess and all that, but look into the health risk factors. Cancer, dementia, heart disease etc. Oh and on Jane's longing to work at Smash Hits, well Maggie of course I did have an interview for a job at Smash Hits, sadly and ironically I got drunk the night before

and wasn't able to attend it. Anyway, Maggie says I was picture editor at the MAG back in the early 90s. Take that, New Kids on the Block, East 17, it was the best job ever. And now I sing to babies and toddlers while JG inspires, entertains and brings pleasure alongside Fee to so many of us. Oh, Maggie, thank you very much. Who's got the best job now, she says. I don't know, Maggie, you've got a good, interesting job singing to babies and toddlers. That's useful and important. Yeah, it is.

Would you say that that was a better job than doing a podcast? Well, I mean, it's... We would be rubbish at that, so it's a better job if you like it. You could play your oboe to soothe the babies and toddlers. They'd just be crying. And I could just tell anecdotes. They'd just be weeping. They would be weeping. Absolutely weeping.

Oh dear. Smash Hits though. I mean, that was... Who is that? Oh, Sylvia Patterson wrote that. I thought, very really interesting book about working at Smash Hits. We weren't allowed Smash Hits. It was just reviewed in our houses a little bit, just a bit too, I think bright and shiny.

Oh really? Well you mean it wasn't allowed in the house or at school? No, in the house. Yeah, because my best friend Susie, she had a subscription to Smash Hits and Jackie, so I just used to thumb through her copies. But yeah, we were the National Geographic. Okay, well look, it's paid off for a long time. Whenever I think of the National Geographic, I always think of Dan Snow. And I saw him the day before yesterday looking very lost

in Brick Lane in London, trying to navigate his way to his destination using only his phone. And I thought, oh look there's down snow. And so I smiled at him in that kind of you must know me way. And of course he doesn't know me at all. And he didn't smile back and he walked on. That's my anecdote. Down snow in Brick Lane. Showbiz anecdote of the week. Yeah, he's very tall. Oh he is, I mean, but they are these people with the big brains. They need to be bigger just to contain it. Yeah, I mean, he couldn't find his way though. No, but if he's following the instructions on the phone, I do have sympathy for him because I rarely succeed with that method.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I just burst into tears and pop into a newsagent and ask them if they know where it is. Usually works. Can we say a very big hello to Siobhan? You sent such a lovely email and I'm very glad that we are keeping you company. Oh, can I just say with reference to Maggie's email about alcohol and stuff, I would be very interested to hear from the group about the changing nature of hangovers because I do not know a middle-aged woman who isn't struggling with hangovers even after just one glass of wine.

And it's the terrible anxiety, it is the reliving of every conversation you've had the night before. I can obsess until about two o'clock in the afternoon as to whether or not I said hello nicely enough to somebody or goodbye nicely enough and all of the stuff in between, you know, that can haunt me for days. It is so weird. It seems to turn into such a potent thing, the lingering of alcohol in the system. I admire you greatly for just realising it actually, because I think quite a lot of us are still doing that thing where we're going to go down the same road, you know, imagining that the destination might be different and it's not. But just one glass of rose can properly haunt me for about 48 hours now.

I don't think you're alone and anxiety is absolutely a hundred percent real. I can also relate to what you said. So yes, but yeah, you're right. I'm also still drinking, but you know, we're not, I mean, I don't drink during the week. And I look forward to the couple of drinks I have at the weekend. But if you're at a celebration, as I have been for the last two weekends, you just can't avoid it. And I'll be also completely honest with you, I find those big party occasions, I think you've got to be on form, people have been generous enough to invite you, they don't want some dullard standing in the corner, not offering a great deal and drinking water. It's sometimes how I feel, I guess. Interesting, because I think actually I'm a much better guest if I don't have anything to drink. If I have a couple of glasses of wine I'm so tired I just have to go home. So I tend not to drink at a social occasion now

and I think I'm a little bit better at staying in the game. Okay, that's just an alternative. I need that, I mean, Dutch courage, I don't know where that expression comes from. Because they're very brave. Well they are, but so are many other nationalities. I mean they'd have to be brave, didn't they invent Advocat? God. That takes guts. There was never a need for Advocat.

I don't understand how that's still in business. Who's still saying, oh it's Christmas, bring on the eggnog. Somebody will be and you've mentioned Christmas. And now I have and we must move on. Is it time to bring in our guest? It must be. Eve's certainly looking world weary, that would be one way to describe her. Here is Jo Hamilton. If you need to place her in what was quite a long-running saga, let's be honest, and a complicated one, it's just worth pointing out that she was the

character played by Monica Dolan in the ITV drama Mr Bates versus the Post Office. She is now officially Josephine Hamilton OBE. It's lovely to meet you Josephine OBE. How does that feel? Josephine, that's what my mum used to call me when she was cross. Yeah, yeah. I mean, can you believe that? I go and get it next week. So Do you? Yeah, it's very exciting. I'm going to Buckingham Palace. Well, very many congratulations to you and I hope you have a lovely lovely day Joe was one of more than 900 sub postmasters prosecuted based on information from the post

offices faulty horizon accounting system her book is out now it's called why you hear mrs. Hamilton Joe you look well today and you look rested but I imagine that there's been so much turmoil in your life. Do you still wake up occasionally in a cold sweat? Not so much in a cold sweat, but I'm just still angry. I still want them to pay everybody. And my book will be an example of it's me times thousands literally that what they did to me it wasn't just me and they they've demolished lives and I want everyone to feel the comfort that I feel now of having enough money to

actually pay my bills you know some people are literally still hanging by a thread waiting for money. And I just find that wicked that what now everything is out there in the open. So I hope my book goes some way to, to keeping, keeping it out there that they've still not been paid. Now I know you had at one point got 80% of the compensation that you'd asked for, but what's happened relatively recently. Yes. I, I gave up fighting and I thought I'll accept 80% because my husband was poorly, and we just wanted to finish it. But right out of the blue at the end of last year, they topped it up.

And I now have had all of my claim 100%. So my cynicallyically I thought there must be a catch, and I said am I gagged and they said no, but they topped it up because the heads of loss are now settling higher than they were. My case was put forward as one of the sort of pioneers to try and get a framework to make a payment plan for everybody. So yeah, they revisited it and said you should have had more so they topped me up to 100%. But some people haven't had a penny. No, no, because they make it very difficult. They've offered people, I think people may have had interims, I don't know about all the schemes, but that it's not a lot and Alan has been offered,

his first offer was I think 18% and he's now been offered 50%, just under 50%. Just in case people forget, this is a man who has been knighted. Yeah. This is Sir Alan Bates we're talking about. This is Sir Alan Bates. Yeah, quite incredible.

Right, let's go back in time slightly because I think people need to know what kind of a human you are. And having read the book, I know from what you've put in the book, just what a grafter you have been all your life. You are someone who has worked and worked and worked in a whole variety of different jobs, haven't you? Yes, slightly. Well, you have, but... Yeah, I had to chase my husband around because in those days, you know, especially

in the army, you have to go with them and, you know, and no one will take you on because to do a serious job because you're not going to stay, which is true, fair play. That's what it is. So I've turned my hand to anything just to earn money really, because Mum and Dad always brought me up to work hard if I wanted something had to work for it. Yeah well you've cleaned and you've driven, was it driven lorries? Yes I've driven trucks, tipper truck and I've done general haulage so yeah yeah. And when did you decide that you wanted to run the village store in your village in Hampshire? We were living in the village David was on the PTA at the school so our boys

grew up there and the transport business, someone went bust on us and it was really hard to recover so we took the decision, we traded our way out of the mess we were in thanks to this person going bust but we traded our way out and someone said, well, why don't you sell the truck and come and run the village shop? So it seems actually quite a nice idea because, you know, it's quite a lonely life going up, up the road, staying overnight. You know, it's not, it's, I know ladies do do it, but it's not really a place for ladies. I don't think, you know. I loved every minute of driving, but actually being out overnight is quite a lonely job. I can imagine, and I can only imagine,

but you've never chosen necessarily the easy path, have you? But you probably imagined, and I wouldn't blame you, that running the village shop, which happened to have a post office attached to it, would be quite a calm and peaceful way to earn a living. Yeah, it was honestly, it was a dillic. And we knew there was a bit of work to put in because it had been run by volunteers who stoically kept it going. But it didn't have like a common thread, if you know what it needed someone to pull it all together. And

then we had people come in and wanted somewhere to sit and have a cuppa and it gradually evolved into this really beautiful village shop. Well, you were opening up at seven in the morning and preparing bacon baguettes for shift workers. I mean, you really were a community hub. Yeah, yeah, we were. And, you know, so much so that in the days when the chip and pin came into the post office, the old ladies that we used to serve couldn't deal with chip and pin. So they let me have all their cards.

I had all their cards in envelopes with their pin numbers on, and I used to cash in the top drawer and I used to cash all their pensions and put the money back in the envelopes. And they'd come in on Saturday morning, do their shopping shopping and they'd get the change back out of the envelope. Which is an illustration if people needed it that you are Britain's least likely criminal because people honestly trusted you with that. Yeah, all of their pensions, I had everything in my top drawer which probably the post office might have sacked me. Well they might have done done. It's ahead of the prosecution. Right. So what happened then when this new computer system came in and when was it? It was in 2003 and I took over as a postmaster in 2003. And exactly what you saw on the screen

with Monica there, that happened. A couple of months there was a few pennies here and there and then in December 2003 and that very shortfall happened and I, do you know, I never took it seriously in the beginning because I always thought it would just sort itself out, you know, and then when it got really serious the area manager came out and couldn't find the money, the money that was never there, but I never thought of it as money that wasn't there. He came out, couldn't find it and said, oh, don't worry, an error notice will come. Well, it didn't come. And they took my money. They kept my wages because I didn't have £4,000

to give them. Yeah. So it just went out of your wages, right? I'm really keen for everyone listening just to understand what it was you had to do. So at the end of every working day, your job was to what? Get the numbers to match. Yeah, so, but basically that was on balance day that that happened. a week you could cash up every day and it it it would tell you what you should have in the till and if though if you couldn't open up the next morning until you agreed that figure right and and so you'd sort of make it good with the little bits from the safe it never became a

big amount until that night in December 2003, where it was minus £2,000. So I rang up the help desk and they told me to do various things and it doubled it and it literally it doubled in front of my eyes. And they said, well, you've got to make it good. And it's like, well, I didn't know £2,000, let alone £4,000. And they said, well, I said, well, you've got to make it good. And it's like, well, I didn't know 2000, let alone 4000. And they said, well, you know, I said, well, the area manager's got to come out and I've had since I was in the court of appeal, I've had the paperwork that shows my call logs. And they said the air, she wants the area manager, sorry, but someone's going to have to go and see her. And it's, you know, as if it was my fault. But of course, but you had eventually you've begun to believe it was your

fault. Yeah. What was that like? Oh, it was she said, you know, you're the only one that's having these problems. And then I thought, Oh, cramps, you know, I knew I wasn't stupid, but I wasn't, I was not tech savvy. And we are talking 2003. And so it was almost a bit bit magic, chip and pin, how, you know, I had no idea about computers. So I always presumed it was something I was doing wrong. And for a long time, and this is what really disturbed me actually about what you're experiencing in the book, is you didn't tell anybody. You have a very close-knit family. Your mum and dad were around, your husband, everyone was supporting you. And you'd supported each other as a unit, but you didn't tell anybody

about that, did you? No, because we'd struggled because of the lorry business, but we managed to get our way out of it financially, but life had always been a bit tough. And I didn't want them to worry and I felt responsible for the mess so I didn't say anything. All the while I could put it right myself I was putting it right. So they kept my wages and I didn't say anything. And then we had another one and they kept my wages for that. Then I had another one and they said if you do this one more time we're gonna sack you. So I then didn't, that's when I started not to say anything and then the amount got bigger

and then and I constantly, well I was always looking for ways to pay it. I borrowed some money from a friend and then in the end it got to nine thousand pounds and I had to then confess that I was in a mess. And the book actually opens with your appearance at the Crown Court in 2008 and by this point – there's a lot of detail in the book of course which we don't have time to get into now – but by this point you had pleaded guilty to charges of false accounting. How did that come about? Well in the beginning they only ever charged me with theft and we got pretty close to trial date and they said well if she pleads

guilty to 14 counts of false accounting we'll drop the theft, provided she doesn't mention horizon in mitigation, which I actually didn't know that bit. But I knew, I always felt guilty that I had actually agreed figures in order to open. And I'd also signed the end of week cash accounts knowing that they weren't correct. And I thought, well, well they're gonna get me and the the lawyer opened up there I can remember her opening up the red folder and saying to me right okay because I said false accounting and she said yeah this is what it is Joe opened it up and she said did you know on that day when you said there was whatever in the till that there wasn't and I said yeah and

she said well they're gonna get you for false accounting. So if you plead guilty you're less likely to go to prison for it than theft so if we take the plea bargain but part of the bargain is that I had to repay the 36,000 pounds shortage. And okay you turned up in court on that day expecting to go to prison? Yeah yeah I had my bag packed ready ready to go to prison? Yeah. Yeah, I had my bag packed ready to go to prison. It was the most terrifying day ever. I'd been there for changing my plea from not guilty to theft, to guilty to false accounting. So I knew the court was, it was a big court, quite imposing. But I, yeah, that day was just horrible.

The night before was horrible. I almost wish I hadn't known. I was expecting to come home because the buildup to it was hideous. You're a great fan of horses, aren't you? And I know you'd packed in your bag for prison some very particular books. What were they? Yeah, I always tried to do an HNC in equine science because science was my thing back in the day.

And I thought, well, from going in, I'm going to use up my time. I'm going to do my course that I've never got to because I used to think I'd take it with me in the lorry and do it overnight. Well, it never worked out like that. So I thought, right, I'll get a chance. I'll do it. I'll get my head down and do whatever time I've got because I did have a really close friend who was dying of cancer. She was just a little bit younger than me and it kind of put everything into perspective and it made me realize whatever in life is not as bad as actually, I didn't have a death sentence, you know, I was going to, I thought to myself, I'm only going to go to prison.

So I'll get my head down and get on with it. And I kind of got in the zone and convinced myself I was going to prison. Now on the day that court was full of your supporters and it caused quite a rumpus in some of the local press wasn't there? Because well the headline was a woman pleads guilty to something and the court is filled with people who say she's fabulous. Which I mean the judge pointed out was not normal. No, I mean he just shook his head and looked at me and he goes, why are you here Mrs Hamilton? Why are you in my court? And I could hear people, because you can hear

an amount of people when they all came in, you could hear a bit of laughing and a bit of shuffling of feet and people talking and whispering. And I thought, oh my God, how many are up there? Honestly, there was 74 people. It was staggering. So the village always kept faith with you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They just knew. Yeah.

They knew that I, you know, I mean, they didn't have to do that. I mean, I'll probably there are a couple of doubters, but they, they just all rocked up, you know, from the very elderly to quite young. And then the vicar stood up in the witness box and I, do you know what, if I could go back now, I think I'd quite enjoy the day knowing how it's gonna end up. Yeah, unfortunately you didn't have the time. No, I mean I could only begin to imagine the absolute terror you were feeling but how brilliant that because of your friend you've been able to put it into some sort of perspective. So tell me when did you then discover

that you were not, you were far from alone? Well, it was the local press took pictures and it ended up in the national press because they were part of the mail group and it ended up in the mail and the express. And yeah, and then people rang the shop. They rang the shop and said, I know someone else has happened to then I had a lady say, I know someone else this happened to. Then I had a lady say, I know, blimmin well what's going on here.

I proved that the computer was wrong. And then obviously I get a call from Alan, then Computer Weekly. Yeah, who've been very doubty on this, haven't they? Yeah, yeah. Oh, they've been incredible. They just kept going. They've written article after article.

And we were like, they did the articles on all of this. And then we thought, you know, there's enough people here to have a meeting. And that's how the whole Fanny Compton thing started. We just hoovered in. Well, you picked a location that was more or less central. That was Allen. Yeah, that was it.

Okay. I wondered who was going to turn up and how many people came to that meeting? I think it was about 50 or 60 people in total and probably 20, 25 of us were postmasters and it was their other halves or friends came. And, and yeah, well, I mean, I, Izzy took me because I didn't even have enough, my lawyer. Yeah. And I didn't have enough money for petrol. I mean, that's how poor we were.

I remember the first time Alan went to London, we passed a hat around to put money into to get enough money for the train fare. We were so poor, all of us, and we'd all been demolished. all of us and we'd all been demolished and I when I looked around the room I just went right and I've been Mrs. Angry ever since because... Would you have thought yourself capable of this? No, definitely not. No, honestly I would never have I would never say boot or a goose. I was always kind, always loved people, but I was never one for sticking my head over the parapet. But it was so wrong. And what they were doing to all of us was so wrong. And it was obvious by the state of us, what had happened to so

many people. You watch people fall by the wayside, they went to prison. You know, I went to see Miss Trial, she went to prison. Then I phoned my friend Jackie. I think she was pregnant at the time. She was pregnant, yeah. And then I went and phoned my friend Jackie, who couldn't get legal aid, so couldn't defend herself. And I said, she's gone, she's gone down for it. And she went straight to Preston Crown Court and pleaded guilty, changed her plea to guilty and went to prison. And that was a moment where I'm like, wow, it kind of lit a bonfire inside me. And it's like, we've got to sort this out. Well, you have sorted it out, although as we've already discussed, not everybody has

been properly compensated so far. The toll on, well the human toll, the suffering, it's just quite remarkable. And I mean I don't know about you but I'd always thought of the post office as quite benign. I mean some of the people who investigated you, who came around to… They were dreadful. Well, hopefully we'll find out where it's going to end up. The Inquirer will report and the Metropolitan Police will get involved. But yeah, it's, you know, they were just dreadful. And I still don't really understand why. It wasn't like it was your own pocket it was going into.

It was it's the post office. But now we're up against the government. So and that's a whole other ballgame because they've taken over all of it now. What do you mean? The Department for Business and Trade. It's them now that are in charge of everything. But they seem to love spending money on lawyers trying not to pay the victims. And it's the same with all the schemes.

It doesn't matter. It's not just us, is it? It's the same with all the schemes. It doesn't matter. It's not just us, is it? It's the blood scandal. And I don't, what I don't get is if something's so wrong, don't spend money trying to defend it. Just put your hands up and say, you know, let's just sort this out and be and take the moral high ground and just say, let's, we're really sorry for what's happened and we're going to make it better because people are dying without money and that's so wicked. I think people will be absolutely horrified to hear, Jo, that even now there's a belief amongst the victims of this scandal that the current government, and I appreciate they've only been

in power since last July, is absolutely dragging its feet here and isn't doing as much as it could. Yeah. I mean, I don't know why they can't end it. They've paid all this money to have medical reports, forensic reports and everything. So they've now had everything in front of them that they've actually paid for. And then they've come back and gone, well, you can have 18% of it. The lowest person got offered 0.5 of a percent. I mean, they can't be that wide of the mark. Surely they're professional people that have worked it out. I'm just looking at the messages coming in

from listeners, Jo, and obviously you're so much admired, and I hope you know that, but Jonathan just says, surely the buck stops with the bosses of the post office, then the bosses never carry the can. I mean, that does seem to be the case, but you haven't given up hope, and there will be, you hope, presumably. Yeah, the inquiry will report,

and I know the Metropolitan Police are dealing with it, because I've been interviewed by them about some of my paperwork, so we have to let them, we see when we were prosecuted, we never went near the police or the CPS, we just got frog marched into court. Whereas at least they'll go down the proper process, whereas we didn't.

So Alan Bates says in the forward to your book that you had the kind of human empathy skills that he lacked. So you were a fantastic duo, the two of you worked together. Yeah, we were a really good duo. We had Julian at the time as well. Julian always helped me out and sadly he didn't make it. He passed away in 2016. Well you see this is what's at the heart of all this, that people have died whilst all this has been going on.

Yeah, he died convicted as well. He never got his conviction questioned. Karen came to court with his ashes in a, some of his ashes in a little pot and wore his tie and carried his photograph so that he'd have his day. You know, it's so wicked. It is. I think wicked is the right adjective. It's been such a pleasure to meet you and to hear your story from you. But the book, I really recommend it. Of anyone who doesn't feel they quite understand all this and they need to know more. It's called Why You Hear Mrs Hamilton by Jo Hamilton and it's out now. Take care of yourself and really enjoy your OBE day

next week. Thank you. It is really well worth reading about because you just feel such sympathy for her and indeed for all the other people caught up in this. Why You Hear, Mrs Hamilton is her book. We will regroup together on Monday but tomorrow is it a Jane Jane? It's a Jane Jane. It's yes, Markerens and Garvey, the best provincial estate agents in the Republic of Ireland. Excellent. I am off doing parental things, so I hope you have a very good podcast. I might listen to you on the train on the way back. So please, I'll only tell you that in case,

you know, you were going to talk about me behind my back. Something which a lifetime at all girls day boarding school has taught me is a possibility when women get together. Okay, well I can't believe it. So you have got quite a long train journey, haven't you? So we'll make it an extra long one. Oh, hi! Yes, we do. She's going up north. Look out!

Well, I'll be waving and strutting. Oh yes. So, wave back if you're in Fife, wave back if you're crossing the Forth Road Bridge and wave back if you're in Angus and Kincardine show. See you on Monday. Yeah, okay. That's it for me. Good, I've melted. It's the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and do do it live every day Monday to Thursday 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app.

Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.