Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Book Club - A Dutiful Boy

Episode Date: May 6, 2024

Jane and Fi are back with their fifth book club - and this one is proved to be a bit of a tear-jerker... A Dutiful Boy is written by Mohsin Zaidi, who joins Jane and Fi to discuss his emotions during the writing and publishing process. Thank you so much for your engagement and interaction. We hope you'll join us for the next one. Get your suggestions in at: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Jane. Jane is quite a hard task monster. Monster? Task monster. I think that still works. A task monster. Yeah, it does actually. Why don't we set up an app? Welcome to Off-Air Book Club podcast book number five. And we hope you're enjoying your bank holiday, should you be having one. Because this podcast is dropping four in England, the May bank holiday, the first of two.

Thank you. Any other diary, problems, commitments or intrigue? Jane is your girl. We're going to be discussing in this episode of the podcast A Dutiful Boy which is the memoir written by Mohsin Zaidi and we do assume for the purposes of the podcast that you have all read

the book so if you've come to this thinking oh I'll just give this a little listen it's the Off-Air podcast whatever whatever and then you hope to read the book it may be better to wait until you've read the book because we don't do spoiler alert and all of that kind of stuff we just talk about it with the expectation that you've got to the end and read it all and we also have an interview with the author

so you'll hear from moss in in a couple of minutes now um i think i said or it might have been you i mean i don't know the difference these days that we hadn't had any critical emails. And so now we have. And we didn't particularly want to encourage them, but it's just that not everybody enjoyed the book as much as I assumed people would. And of course, you shouldn't make assumptions because everybody comes at things from a very different perspective.

But we've also had, I have to say, many more emails from people saying, right, this properly, this really struck a nerve with me. And not just from people from Muslim communities, but also from people who grew up in Christian households, for whom being gay was not easy, and is still in some cases, not something they can talk about much at home. So what did you think of it? I knew, I was very keen to do this book when we had our we actually had a meeting we sat down around a table to discuss which book and i i thought this one would be

really accessible and it was easy to get hold of which isn't the reason to get a book or do a book but doesn't do any harm in these circumstances and i suppose my only criticism would be that by the very nature of it being published and you only have to read the blurb at the back of the book, you know it's going to turn out well for the narrator, that he has been through something really challenging and he's more than come out the other end. He has, in fact, triumphed by any measure

of a life of achievement in this country. Well, he's done it hasn't he he absolutely has nailed it but that's interesting because i didn't assume that there was such a happy ending to the book i thought it may well be a book about trying to be a dutiful boy and in that sense failing i.e by the end of the book perhaps he was no longer in the warm and loving embrace of his family. And what he'd had to sacrifice in order to be himself and to marry his partner and to be openly gay, and openly gay and successful, would be that his family had completely fallen away, and they hadn't managed to get back on track. So I think I read it maybe with a slightly different eye thinking that

the there might be some jeopardy to use that horrible overused term of the moment in it and and I found it so moving at the end I really thought that his mum's journey Jane I would like his mum to write a book as well because of all of the people who he talks about within his family, I felt that she moved mountains in her own mind and actually in other family members' minds in order to carry on loving her son. And I really, I did shed a tear at quite a few moments about his mum's love for him. and I know that lots of people have said you know they had teary moments too and I think a couple of people and we'll get to your

emails in just a sec have said the same thing about that maternal love yeah she she does spring off the page doesn't she um his mum uh because you're right she's not perfect but then nobody is and actually we were talking weren weren't we, last week about Asma Mir's memoir in which her mum writes bits of the book and that really works. It would be actually a really good thing to hear more about Moss's mum and about how she would have seen these events that he describes so brilliantly in the course of A Dutiful Boy.

Because we learn during the book, don't we, that she turns her life around too. So for a woman who had this expectation on her to stay at home, really, and raise the kids, and she qualified as a teacher, was clearly a brilliant teacher. Yeah, a very clever woman. And then she goes on towards the end of the book

to be part of and be the instigator of a group that helps other families who are trying to deal with homosexuality under the umbrella of faith. I think she sounds absolutely remarkable. She's really funny as well. Her favourite TV programme. I absolutely love that detail. It's Will and Grace. She really was keen on Will and Grace.

Yeah. I couldn't stand it. Could you not? Okay. Not sure I ever watched a whole one. So shall we hear from Mossen himself. Yeah. I couldn't stand it. Could you not? Okay. I've never watched a whole one. So shall we hear from Mohsin himself? Yeah. And then we will do as many of your thoughts and emails as is humanly possible. So on the cover of the book is a quote from the fabulous Satnam Sanghera saying

this book will save lives. So we asked Mohsin if his life would have been different if he'd been able to read a book like this when he was younger? Funnily enough, I think that goes to the heart of why I wrote the book. I was tired of being ashamed. I was tired of having to dumb myself down or make myself smaller for particular people or in particular situations. And I don't just mean sexuality here. I also mean class. And I think that actually at the heart of why I wrote the book was for that reason because I wanted something in the world that could have helped save me from the darkest moments that I had I remember watching uh Queer as Folk by

Russell T Davies in the 90s and I almost kind of I remember sneaking downstairs to watch it and I came alive I was 13 years old and it was almost like I discovered this entirely new part of me and it made my skin tingle but then almost instantaneously I was also completely flooded with a sense of dread because I knew that there was something inside of me that was entirely at odds with everything else. And so, yes, the purpose of this book was to try and help the 13 year olds of today. And when you started writing it, did it all flow out of you or were there times when you actually had to had to take a breath because it was all just a bit too a bit too troubling? I loved the writing process. I think that I feel so fortunate to have discovered this thing that I that helps. I don't know. It helps my soul sing. I know that sounds really cheesy, but that's how it makes me feel.

But there were certainly times that were harder than others. So I'll give you an illustration. But there were certainly times that were harder than others. So I'll give you an illustration. One of the things I write about is the petrol bombing of my home with my mum and my baby brother still inside in what was a racist attack. And we my family had collectively suppressed that memory. We had told ourselves that it was too scary to acknowledge or to face. And I remember my parents agreeing that we just wouldn't talk about it. And it was only when I sat down to write the book and to think about life experiences

that I was reminded that this thing had happened. And I actually had to text my mum and be like, I'm not making this up. This really did happen, didn't it? And when I sat down to write, it was almost as though all of the kind of trauma around it all of the reaction to what had happened because I actually um I came upon the house when it was on fire and I had to get my family out um it was almost like I hadn't I don't

remember crying at the time and so then I remember like 15 years later being sat in front of my computer, safe at home, filled with tears, just crying as I was writing. And I kind of kept writing because it was important to get it in real time. And it really did feel like real time. But yes, there were moments like that, that were hard,

but they were hard in a way that felt like I was lucky to be able to reflect on it with this newfound safety. It must also have been very difficult to write the bits of the book that are so honest about your parents' attitude towards homosexuality. And both your parents have been on such an enormous journey. But as a reader, you let us be privy to some of the, you know, the most painful times of your life. And I wonder whether you, did you have to show your parents what you were writing? Have they read the whole book themselves? How does that relationship work in real life? I think the first thing to say is that I believe that in life,

there are seldom, seldom are there heroes and villains. And I think that one of my main tasks when writing this story was to demonstrate the ways in which we are all capable of being heroes and villains. And that actually being able to overcome prejudice being able to overcome fear is at the very essence of what makes us human and I guess that is powered by love and so with my parents what I often say is that this okay yes it's a memoir that I wrote but really it's a story about my family it's a it's it's a story about the power of their love and how I used it against them to hold on to them, even when they wanted me to let go. When I began writing the book, when Penguin presented the opportunity, I went to my parents and I said, look, I'd like to do this, but I don't want to put you through any more than I already have. Because, you know, regardless of whether it's my fault or not,

I had put them through a lot. And their immediate response was absolutely not. We don't want you doing this. And then I said, okay, how about this? How about I go away and write this book, and once I've written it, you can read it. And if at any point before Penguin Random House clicks, you know, go on printing 500,000 copies of A

Dutiful Boy, at any point before then, if you'd like me to pull the plug, I will. So I went away and wrote the book with their agreement with this caveat. And then once it was written, I sent them the draft. And for a couple of weeks, I didn't hear anything at all and then finally I got a text from my mum and she said on page 15 you've missed a full stop and I was like oh mum like the grammar is not why I'm sending you this book somebody else can deal with that and then kind of as she read it I get got more and more messages from her about our collective memories and about the things that she was responding to. And at the end, she sent me a message and asked me to come and see her. So I went to see her and my dad and they they sat me down and I was quite worried because I thought this is very dramatic.

They're sitting me down. This probably means that the answer is no. And I'm going to have to tell Penguin Random House. I'm going to have to tell Penguin Random House. No, thank you. But they said that they were proud of me and that they hoped that our story would help save other families from going through what we'd had to go through. From having to try and get medical opinions and have a witch doctor to the house and have our family broken by something that we don't think should cause that rift. So ultimately, they did have some things they wanted removed, but they were very happy for me to publish the book. Can you explain, Mohsin, what it was your parents were so worried about? And this, by the way, would probably go for just about every family in the land. It certainly isn't specific to Muslim communities. Was it they were worried about the impact on, if you like, the family's reputation?

Or were they worried that your sexuality would mean that you had to have a particular sort of life, a life that might be in many people's eyes, just not, I don't know, not full enough? What was it that concerned them so much? Do you mean about my sexuality? Yes, yeah. About the publishing of the book? Specifically, yeah, yeah. I think it's important to remember that I, so my parents came to the country from Pakistan

in the 80s, when the AIDS crisis was raging, and it was being blamed in the LGBT community. You know, 80s Britain was not a hospitable place to the queer community. The Tory government introduced legislation to prevent schools from talking about it. In fact, it's the same legislation that Vladimir Putin used only recently to ban the talking to the back to ban talking to kids about sexuality. And it's now what's being done in Florida. So that's a broader context in which my parents sat. I think that they had never met anybody who was gay. They had also come into a racist Britain,

a classist Britain, where they were excluded from most opportunities, from most rooms in one of the wealthiest cities in the world. And I think that when you are subject to exclusion, both economic and racial, you have no choice but to hold on to the things that you were taught, the culture that you have. If you're not welcomed into the society that you now live, then what alternative is there? And I think that to them, holding on to their traditional view of what family meant was about survival.

And it wasn't just about their survival. It was about survival and it wasn't just about their survival it was about my survival and I think that having a gay son felt to them like a threat to the existence of the family it felt like they would lose me and I don't and I think that those emotions, those reactions, albeit violent reactions, are tied entirely to their experiences in 80s Britain, in a council house, in a country that still doesn't treat working class people the way that it should. people the way that it should. I felt throughout the book that you were very forgiving, more forgiving than I think many people would be of a religion or an interpretation of a religion that had led to so much pain for you and your family. Am I right to think that? I think forgiving is an interesting word in the sense that it grants me a power, it grants me a victimhood that I'm not sure that I'm worthy of. I think that, as I've mentioned, the homophobia was not limited to my family or

to my community. Yes, it's true that there are parts of Islam, sizable parts of Islam that struggle with sexual identity. But it was really important for me to not vilify a community, because there is so much more complexity, some of it, some of it I've already touched upon, as to why I found myself subjected to the homophobia that I was subjected to. To kind of bring it into present day, when I was publishing the book, it into present day, when I was publishing the book, I have my own, you know, innate Islamophobia that I have been subjected to over the last 20 years in this post 9-11 world, and a fear of Muslims, even though I am one. And seeing the book published, and the fear that for me came with putting it into the world around how the Muslim community, even if you can call, you know, two billion people a community, would react.

And when I look at the messages on Instagram or LinkedIn that I get or my agent gets, from Muslims and non-Muslims alike, the overwhelming majority are positive. I got a selfie from a group of Muslim women in Canada who have a book club and they said we were worried about reading this book because we thought it would be anti-Islamic in some ways and afterwards they said that they were grateful to have read it because they felt better equipped to address sexuality with their children who were young but will one day potentially have to deal with it so I think that going on this journey of publication has also been humbling for me and it's enlightened me

to the idea that I guess I was trying to kind of promulgate in the book all along, which is that Muslims are just ordinary people like everyone else, trying to live lives and trying to feed their children and protect their families and to love each other the way that we all do. And so the reason to talk in those terms is to say that I was guilty of the same Islamophobia I seek to destroy by writing this story. And could a teenager buy your book and take comfort from it all over the Muslim world? Or is it not on sale everywhere? I couldn't tell you exactly where it's on sale. I know that people in India have

written to me, people in Pakistan have written to me, people in China, New Zealand. I know you're asking about the Muslim world. So I think it's available in most places. There's the digital version as well in the audiobook, but I wouldn't want to say definitively that it's available everywhere. I guess the other thing I would point out is that this is not just a book about Islam. And I think that when people read it, they see that. It was billed as a gay Muslim story, and that was not really the themes. That's part of it. But this is a book about identity.

It's a book about growing up as a non-white person in a majority white country. It's a book about growing up as a working class person from a council house that ends up going to Oxford. It's a book about the fact that we, none of us, even if you're a heterosexual white straight man, none of us are just one thing. And I think that to reduce the book to the tension between the queer community and the Muslim community is to is to miss what's at the heart of it, which is the nuance of being alive. Yeah, I think it's just a wonderful story about how families move around the furniture in a family to get to the place that they want to be as well. And I really love your dialogue. Were you ever keeping a diary, a contemporaneous diary? Because some of the conversations, I mean, they're just so brilliant. There was never a moment when I was reading it where I thought, oh, that doesn't quite kind of sound right or ring true or somebody wouldn't say it like that.

So the detail, did it just come from what you could recollect? I didn't keep a diary. I have a kind of weird memory whereby if you asked me what I did yesterday, I genuinely couldn't tell you. But if you asked me what I did on a specific day where something meaningful in life happened, I could tell you beat by beat exactly what happened and how it went and how it made me feel. And so that that way in which my memory functions served me very well when I was writing the book. I think that I benefited from the fact that almost everyone I write about is still alive. And so I was able to call them and say, look, this is my recollection. Am I really getting this right? As I said earlier,

I think that although this is a memoir that I have written, for me, the beauty in the book is about the fact that so many loved ones, whether they are related to you or they are friends, help you to survive. And I think that we all need that. And so I feel so lucky to have been able to put the stories, not just of my experience of these people, but these people's experiences of me into this book. And I know you do give enormous credit to the therapist you had who really did. I mean, she she really did go above and beyond, didn't she? Absolutely. She saved my life.

You know, the way I put it in the book was that she kind of she looked at my mind and saw this really complicated Rubik's cube. And she was able to just adjust the pieces so that they aligned in the way that they should. And I feel that way. But I think that it is not an understatement to say that, you know, it's not just that she saved my life in some sort of dramatic way. It's that she helped me to find myself. And I'm not sure I would have found this voice, the voice that you hear in the book, the voice that you hear now. I'm not sure that I would have been able to reach that place, to inhabit every part of me fluidly, with strength, without her.

And I think that what she was able to do was to knock down all of these barriers that I had put in place internally and created a kind of a superpower that many of us possess and many of us are working toward which is just to be who you are. And our thanks to Mohsin for making himself available for our chat. This is from a listener who says, I enjoyed the book, but one thing did sit oddly with me, and that was what I considered to be the over-involvement of his therapist, Maureen, of whom he was speaking

so positively there at the end of our conversation. Didn't she even drive him to London at one point? I'm pretty sure this goes against all good practice in terms of boundaries, especially as she was working for the university. I'd be interested to hear if any therapists had thoughts on that. Well, we'll throw it out there, I guess. I don't know whether university therapists or counsellors

are allowed to go perhaps the extra mile. Perhaps they are, I don't know, is it more likely that they'd be able to offer practical help, like offering a lift to a student in distress? It's not that impossible. It's not impossible, but I don't know. But other people with qualifications will definitely be able to inform us. So let's get to more of your emails. And thank you to everybody who emailed in. We will get to as many as is humanly possible in the time that we've got. This one comes from Simon Gibbs.

I'd like to thank you for choosing Moss and Zaidi's Dutiful Boy. The book really resonates with me. I'm in my late 50s and, like Moss, realised that I was gay in my teenage years. Back in the late 70s, early 80s, being brought up in small town South Wales, I couldn't see a way of coming out as gay and suppressed this until my 40s when I finally came out and I now live happily with my partner. So to Mawson's book, the bravery in writing and publishing this book has to be applauded because it can't have been easy.

He gives a very personal perspective of growing up as a gay Muslim, but the book is about so much more. It also gives cultural insights into a Muslim breaking into the elite Oxford society and later into the legal profession. Muslim but the book is about so much more. It also gives cultural insights into a Muslim breaking into the elite Oxford society and later into the legal profession. I loved it and I couldn't put it down largely because I could relate to so much of the content and there are some really touching understated moments. My favourite is when Mohsen and his family are discussing telling his younger brother Raza then 17 that he's gay. Mohsen went against his parents wishes younger brother Raza, then 17, that he's gay.

Mohsen went against his parents' wishes and told Raza anyway. And Raza said, I know, and added, I wear rainbow laces because of you. What a beautiful way that he had been supporting his brother without words. And actually, there are loads of moments, aren't there, in the book, where he has this huge fear of having been found out and then it turns out that lots of people in the community have known they've guessed his brother he's worried isn't he that when his brother marries that his sister-in-law's family will take on this terrible feeling of shame and he'll hurt his brother in the process and she just goes no it's fantastic can't wait to have a gay brother-in-law. And these lovely moments as a reader

where you feel like you come up for air, actually, because it's a very claustrophobic story. Yeah, well, it is. And I mean, it's hard for those of us who didn't grow up. Well, actually, let's bring in a listener who has her own perspective. I listened to the Book Club podcast despite not having read the books,

but I did read A Dutiful Boy. It's the first book I've read in years, although I was an avid reader in the past. This struggle by many children of Muslim, Indian or Pakistani parents is very real and it can make life difficult. Having a foot in each camp is tiring. For me, there came a time when a choice had to be made. The fear of choosing my British culture to be the dominant one is frightening

as it can cause the loss of family, friends and community. I didn't have my sexuality to confront but I did have religion, culture, misogyny, dress, language and social circle. I'm the first child to be born to immigrant parents in England. My three siblings were born in India and the cultural divide is huge. My three siblings were born in India and the cultural divide is huge. A fractured family caused me untold grief due to cultural expectations. At the age of 50, I was diagnosed with two cancers in the space of 18 months. And it was then I realised that my chosen family, most of whom are people from the UK, was there for me.

They supported me and picked me up when I was at rock bottom. I mean, she goes on to say, I wore shorts for the first time two summers ago. I went to my son's very English wedding with a very Asian menu without any dread. I'm able to wear a beautiful sleeveless, a total no-no in my family, dress for the wedding, allowing guests to enjoy alcohol if they chose to. I mean, these are experiences that I'm not going to have and you're not going to have, and neither of us can fully understand the impact of that. And as this listener says, no, the sexuality wasn't something she had to wrestle with in her case,

but everything else has been, from the sound of things, pretty much a lifelong struggle. And I don't take it... I mean, I think it must have been tough for you to make decisions like wearing shorts. I mean, it's the fact that you now feel that you can. Why the hell not? That's what you fancy. And we've had so many emails that simply say,

you know, mine is not a life that's similar to Mossin's, but in learning more about how he's dealt with stuff you know I've either faced a similar experience and got through it and hardly commend him for telling us about his or actually quite a few people who just go his life is completely different to mine but now I have a better

understanding of a community that I haven't fully understood or taken the time to understand before can we just do the other religions bit as well? Because I think it's really important, isn't it? And I was quite struck by Mohsen in our interview when we were talking about Islam and how little he wanted to be a destructive force

against his religion in writing the book. And it's such a complex thing, isn't it, throughout the book, how he comes to feel about praying, how he comes to feel about individuality within a very shared experience of worship. So people will understand exactly what we're talking about. But of course, the idea that homosexuality is sinful is pervasive in nearly every major religion on the planet. But you still can't marry in a Church of England church.

No, and it's what's dividing the African churches and Western churches and Christianity, isn't it? In a massive, massive way. So just a couple of these. Emma says, like others i found this book very moving as a newly out gay woman i've had very similar experiences fairly recently within the evangelical christian church and wanted to highlight that discriminatory behavior of lgbtq people continues to happen and be legitimized in such settings which is incredibly painful and damaging i can only hope

that we will see change this one comes from keith who says i contacted you after you recommended all of us strangers and this wonderful book has had a similar effect on me it's beautifully written and i'm sure you'll have lots of emails of praise in my coming out i struggled with my christian faith but as a Methodist, I actually found support once I'd overcome my worries. And it was fascinating to read Mohsen's faith journey, and such a shame that this has meant that he's separated with the mosque, although I can fully understand. Although uplifting overall, and I found it emotional and cried a couple of times once whilst listening on the train. The audio book is beautiful,

a couple of times once whilst listening on the train. The audiobook is beautiful, but I wonder how he got through reading such emotional lines to record it. It's often amazing, actually, isn't it, when you do hear the authors reading their own books in those huge moments of emotional sensitivity. Did you listen to this one? No, I actually read this.

And funnily enough, I didn't want to listen to it. It's weird, isn't it? Before we end, I just want to recommend an audiobook I'm absolutely loving at the moment but it's got nothing to do with our current conversation so we're going to plough on. I'm going to stick to the script. I like being carefully produced by Eve when we do these things. This is just really nice from Sue who just says

A dutiful boy. I devoured this memoir in just a couple of gulps. A truly inspirational read, five stars. Well, there you go. One satisfied customer. This is from Liz, who darts about a bit. She's originally, obviously from Coventry, she says, obviously, but sometimes from Enfield.

I mean, for heaven's sake. What a dizzy showbiz world you inhabit. I loved this. It took a couple of chapters to get into, she says, but given that, it's been recommended by your listeners, so I persisted. I'm so glad I did. For me, the lasting memory is the journey that Mossen went on in his relationship with his mother.

She was clearly so fond and proud of him as a child that the rejection by her when he came out as gay was so harsh and difficult for him and yet he didn't give up on his parents and I was in floods of tears as he describes the work his mum eventually threw herself into encouraging Asian parents to talk about their reactions to their gay children. He's clearly so proud of the journey he's been through and I was proud of him for that. My husband was rejected by his parents at birth because he was profoundly poorly, resulting in him spending 16 years in care.

And yet now at the age of 56, he's navigated a path where he accepts his family, creating opportunities for positive contact with them without judgment. And I'm so proud of him for that. Well, I'm not surprised um that sounds like a hell of an experience and our very best wishes to you Liz and to your husband um he sounds an incredible man actually this one comes from Laura who says I've really

enjoyed a dutiful boy though Muzzin's struggle was because of his specific circumstances I found myself thinking that there was something universal about it. We all disappoint our parents in some way. As a woman approaching 30 with no plans to have children, I can feel my mother's disappointment looming. I don't wish to compare myself to Motsen, but I thought he wrote about being torn between yourself and pleasing your family so well,

and the message was not simplified. It is important to be true to yourself, but it's in no way easy or simple or harmless to others thank you for a great choice well laura that's something that we will definitely talk about more on the podcast and thank you for writing in and i think it's exactly that about the book isn't it that you can find something really compelling in it, whichever perspective you come at it from. Yeah. And actually that, for me,

is the bit that will stay with me from the book, Jane. It's understanding a bit more about that real struggle between your authentic, true individual self and the family and the community that you belong to. Because I think as a very agnostic and, you know, kind of, what's the right word? I mean, independence, a bit of a loose word for it. I've not been tethered to that in my lifetime

and I don't understand that about other cultures and religions and communities because I've never had to live feeling that every action that I take has a direct influence and reaction in another person. And I think it's such a valuable book for a better understanding about that. We did get a couple of emails from people who just thought that actually he was somewhat privileged because he'd been to Oxford and he was able to become I think he became president of his was it his college yeah and he was able to make speeches at dinners and things like that and at least one correspondent said

well if you can do that what's your problem but actually I don't agree with that because I think we're all capable of particularly I mean someone like Mosse, highly intelligent, I mean, clearly intellectually very gifted, but we're all capable of putting our game face on, aren't we? And doing one thing in our parts of our life that we wouldn't be capable of in other parts. So I totally buy it that he was able to navigate the world of Oxford because he was certainly intellectually capable. I completely believe that he can make a speech at a dinner and then go back to his room and fall apart because that's that's the human existence isn't it yeah but also he's he's powered by a sense of duty by a sense of having come from a place that just didn't expect him to be able to rise to where he got to so he

feels a kind of impetus doesn't need to, to put something back in? I mean, he does loads of work now for that Oxford College to make sure that more kids who come from the same background as him can end up at Oxford if they want to be there. Yeah. This is from Sarah who says that she's going to burst our bubble of not having had any negative reviews. Go for it, Sarah. Well, I did enjoy it.

There was nothing new in it. Ooh, that's tough, isn't it? I've read a lot of similar stories over the past couple of years involving men and women of various faiths and their struggles with their sexuality. It was an easy listen and the narrator was good, but that was Mossum, wasn't it? Yes.

Yeah, but I felt the author was a bit self-absorbed. Well, listen, I mean, if you're going to write a book about yourself, by your very nature... Gosh, I mean, we know people who've written books that aren't about themselves have been a bit self-absorbed. We know people from the world of show who've written about 10 or 11 autobiographies. And, I mean, they are certainly self-absorbed.

They're highly absorbent people, Jane. They really, really are. It was very slow so sarah one of your correspondents has mentioned that it was fast-paced i nearly crashed the car when i heard that that correspondent must live in a very slow world oh bring it on i'd love to live in a slow well i do uh but it was anything but fast-paced, according to Sarah. There was a lot of flowery description. And I don't think I ever experienced anyone taking so long to describe eating a piece of gammon. OK, Sarah, I mean, I think in the circumstances, obviously eating a piece of gammon for someone who's a Muslim

is a very different experience than it would be if I... And by the way, I can't stand gammon. If I ever came across a piece of gammon, I could probably write three or four chapters about it. Never mind, never mind, Motsen. So I do think, Sarah, you're being a bit harsh there. But look, not every book is for everybody. I mean, that's the beauty of the whole business, isn't it?

And Sarah, I would say thank you for sending us an email because I'm sure... Oh, no, I want to hear the other side. You can't just have one long love-in. Yes. It's very tedious. Yeah, no, I want to hear the other side. You can't just have one long love in. Yes. It's very tedious. Yeah, no, very tedious. And the whole point of book club

is that we won't always, always like things. Look at all the trouble over that first one. Jane is quite a hard task monster. Monster? Task monster. I think that still works. A task monster. Yeah, it does, actually.

Why don't we set up an app? Katie sends this. Thank you for your wonderful podcast, Elia. Thank you. I just finished A Dutiful Boy, and I have to say, it's my favourite book club book, yet the story itself is compelling, but it also offered me insight into how to be more inclusive. In particular, Mossen's descriptions of his university experience

highlighted a kind of unconscious racism from his college, not accommodating his beliefs to students replacing his name with Martin. A local secondary school in my area serves only halal meat and some of the parents complained at this, despite the choice having no impact on their children and providing a more inclusive environment. The book made me reflect on how on how far we've come already and is a reminder at how much more we have to do do you

know that's such a good point to make about halal meat because you know you and i could go into the canteen and eat halal meat and it wouldn't affect us at all that if we were muslim and the meat wasn't halal we wouldn't go into the canteen no uh now lorraine finds herself in lowestoft thanks for picking this book i loved it can i just say thank you to lorraine because she also recommended a fantastic book that didn't quite make it through our rigorous oh choosing mechanism right so So keep all your suggestions coming around because they're good. She just says, I wonder if everyone knows

that if their public library doesn't have a particular book, they can request it. And if you are a member of a public library, you can access thousands of e-books and audio books for free. Most libraries use the Libby app, I think. Have you heard of that?

Libby app. Have you heard of it? No. app. Have you heard of it? No. Thank you. I just wanted a response. Sorry, I was just trying to sight read some of the Insta DMs so I didn't fall over them. Suffolk libraries didn't have A Dutiful Boy as an e-book, so I clicked the button on Libby to request it. And within a couple of days, they got it and notified me. I read it really quickly in case a fellow off-air listener was waiting for it and i'm glad to see she says there is now a waiting list for it that's good isn't it so that's a credit i'm sure to us but also to mossin um so thank you for

that and i'd not heard of the libby app um but i'm glad you've just reminded us that if you are if you have a local library and they are so important and much loved, I know, you can ask for a book and they will do their very best to get it for you. It's brilliant that, isn't it? It is, very much so. Thank you, Lorraine. Liz has sent us in an Instagram DM.

I couldn't put this down for three days. I walked around with it all Easter weekend. It's beautifully written and provides such a valuable insight into how so many must feel. Quite a few people on the Insta have said it's their favourite book club choice by far. And Velocity Girl says he's an incredible writer

with a fascinating story. Really enjoyed this and thank you for introducing me to this gem of a book. I felt he really shone a light on the different attitude to family belonging in Pakistani versus British culture. me to this gem of a book. I felt he really shone a light on the different attitude to family belonging in Pakistani versus British culture. And actually, your name's Nora. It's always very difficult to tell, isn't it? Because the one above is from Lacto Veg Diaries. It's just I don't know what that means. But anyway, Lacto Veg Diaries just wanted to say, Mossin's

family resembles mine where all the actions are fear-based due to all of the post-colonial complex PTSD. It is just in our DNA. And to see them overcome shame and fear to accept their son unconditionally, there is no greater love. And this is from Debs. She found it a moving yet eventually uplifting book to read. She started it on a train trip to Edinburgh.

I think it's time to just have a burst of your Scottish. What would you like to hear? A little bit of shortbread to go with your tea. That's it. Great. I mean, that's just wonderful. She says... Have we left the Fir of the fourth yet?

No. The second time it wasn't so good. I found it very addictive. She says, what a life journey and you admire his will to keep going. How he managed the racism and bullying as a child was so brave, but also from those within his own community because he didn't act like those around him. A personal note, she goes on to say, but no names.

My daughter has been dating a Muslim chap for 18 months. They're both in their early 30s, went to uni, and in good careers in London. This weekend is the start of them living together. His family, though, have never met her and do not know he is about to live with a British white girl. Whilst he came here as a two-year-old, both his younger brothers in their 20s were born here

and are more engaged with their faith than he is, and so he's not confiding in them. Our daughter has met his best school friends and they are like him in similar relationships, but are also not open with their families. He has met us, though, and has been very open. We see him to be a really lovely guy and we can see he's making our daughter so happy. Having read this book it helps me as a mum to understand the challenges he's dealing with even though those challenges don't

include his sexuality. I think that's a really interesting perspective as well. So thank you. Honestly we've had some terrific emails about this. It's really got people thinking. So we appreciate them very much. They're great. Yeah, very much so. I think this has been one of our best book club choices, actually, myself. So it is Mohsin Zaidi, A Dutiful Boy. And we're very grateful to people who read it with us. And we're very grateful if you bothered to get in touch. And we're glad that you enjoyed it. And even if you didn't, you't, I hope you're glad that you've read it. So, you know what happens next. Yes, it's over to you for our next choice.

And this is going to be our summer bonk buster. Because it's traditional, isn't it, in the summer to bust your bonks out and read a book like that. No? Am I not carrying the crowd with me? No, you are carrying the crowd, but it's a bit illogical isn't it because i think actually the winter months is when you really really need to just snuggle down just have a sense of under a mattress topper the bonking to come i did say i just wanted to say i don't know whether other people have read this i'm listening at the moment to kristin hannah's book the women Women. Have you heard of Kristin Hanna?

No. She's a very successful American author. And I guess some people, I think, are a bit snooty about her. She writes what you might call sagas. I don't think that's unfair. And I certainly don't mean to demean it because I am loving this book. It's about the experience of an American nurse who volunteers for Vietnam, something about which I knew absolutely nothing. And it's absolutely fascinating. It's so interesting.

And I know it's been a massive big hit in the States, but I don't know whether people have in any way questioned the authenticity of what the book contains. I don't know because I don't know enough about the Vietnam War. But it's properly, I think it's properly involving. So if you're looking for something to just carry you along, I'd really recommend that. And the other book I'm reading at the moment, I'm reading it, is Charles Spencer's memoir about his private school.

And that, I have to say, though, it's tough, that, but he's such a good writer. He really is a good writer. And I think anyone who thinks, I don't want, you know, I'm not reading. I mean, it's because he's a toff with nothing to add. I couldn't agree less. It's actually really, really good.

Which is rare for you. No, that's it. I really do think this is worth reading. It's one to get from your library because it's only out in Harlebach at the moment. But it's called A Very Private School. It's just, I just thought I wanted to mention it just because it's really, you know,

every time I go back to it, I read something that some of the teachers at his school were really, really cruel. But you know what? It's the teachers that could have done something to stop it and didn't for whatever reason. And we've all been that person who's the bystander who does bugger all. And I think, yeah, I found that really quite hard at times to read about it because it does make you ponder on some of the choices

that we've all made in our lives about things we could have done something about but chose to look the other way. So those are two book recommendations. What we're hugely interested in hearing about are recommendations for book club number six as well. Yes, neither of those two choices would really make it. Not because they're not good, because they both are.

But we're going to try and stick with our meme, aren't we? Which is books that may not have already been on bestseller lists or maybe are from some time ago. Forgotten classic. Yeah, and books that have been pressed into your hands by friends going, you've got to read this, and yet they haven't kind of made it into the great big ether. So that's what we're looking for, really good personal recommendations.

And hopefully you kind of get the gist of it by now, just something that we're all going to be interested to read and have something to say about and have a bit of a kind of hive chat. That's what we're looking for. It can be fiction, non-fiction. I'm thinking fiction would be nice for the summer. What are you reading at the moment? Well, I've had quite a heft on for work.

Work? Yes. What, here? Yes, just because I've ended up doing the authors over the last couple of weeks and I've really enjoyed the book so much. Not that I don't always read every single word of the other books, but John O'Farrell's Family Politics is just superb.

And that's funny, isn't it? So if someone's looking for a light read, and I don't mean to be dismissive. No, I don't think John O'Farrell would mind you saying that. It's just a lovely, funny read about family, about modern politics in this country. He writes as wittily and cleverly about what's wrong with Labour campaigners

as what's wrong with Tory campaigners. It's all set around a by-election. So to read it at the moment is really, really brilliant. So I didn't want to just super-read that for work purposes. And then, of course, it was David Nicholls with You Are Here, which will be one of the bestsellers of the summer. And again, it's just a perfect book to read at the moment, I think, because it's about a slightly later in life love affair.

It's about people who've come through the pandemic. That is quite a theme in the book, too. It's about walking when you hate walking. Hands up in the room. That's just me then, OK? Well, you don't walk, you power walk. Yeah, but I don't do the rambling thing. You don't ramble? No, I up in the room. That's just me then, okay. Well, you don't walk, you power walk. Yeah, but I don't do the rambling thing. Do you ramble?

No, I don't ramble. Do you ramble? Well, I've been accused of it, yeah. Right, okay. So those have been my two books, which I've savoured every moment of, and I just couldn't recommend those highly enough. For summer, those two are gorgeous. Okay, well, that's given you something to work with.

So get thinking about our next choice and we look forward to hearing from you. What is the address, Morag? It is... Shall I do it in the accent? Janeandfiettimes.radio. I'll tell you what would be really helpful. It would save Eve's bacon

if you could just put book club in the title of the email because then we'll pop it into our rigorous choosing mechanism. Which means a couple of Herberts gather around a table and argue and jane brings something nice from m&s and i win not this time You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast

Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on

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