Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Book Club - Boy Swallows Universe, Trent Dalton

Episode Date: December 8, 2023

Jane and Fi are back with their third book club instalment - they've been reading 'Boy Swallows Universe' by Trent Dalton.Join them as they respond to your emails, Instagram messages, comments and voice notes.Thank you so much for your engagement and interaction. We hope you'll join us for the next one. Get your suggestions in at: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Welcome to episode three of Off-Air Does a Book. And this time around, we are talking about Boy Swallows Universe by the Australian writer and journalist Trent Dalton. And we are thrilled that so many of you have been in touch

with all of your thoughts and opinions and also just thrilled that you're joining in with Book Club. Yeah, because this was a book that a lot of people, including me, perhaps didn't find the easiest thing to read. So many of you stuck with it. And I think actually many of you were glad that you had stuck with it. That's quite a, that's an overwhelming message, isn't it, from the emails we've had? It certainly is.

And we're going to try and pack in as many of your thoughts and opinions as we possibly can into this edition. We've also got an interview with Trent Dalton himself. But we will start with the thoughts of Jane Garvey. Jane Garvey. Bachelor of Arts. It was a low 2.2. I have had it remarked and it was an even lower 2.2. I'm so sorry.

Yeah, but there you go. I did do English at university, therefore I get first dibs here. Now, this book was published in the June of 2018. At the time, I knew nothing about it, but I now understand it was a major sensation across Australia, wasn't it? Much talked about much discussed loved by very very many people and if you go on the internet you'll discover it was also loathed by a surprising number of people as well um I think Trent is it possible we don't know

how famous Trent Dalton was as a journalist do we in Australia is there a British comparison well I'm not sure that there is but I don't think it's I don't really care about things like that famous Trent Dalton was as a journalist, do we, in Australia? Is there a British comparison? Well, I'm not sure that there is, but I don't think it's, I don't really care about things like that when I'm reading a book, do you? I do, yeah. No, if I were to read a book by someone I knew to be an opinionated columnist, then I would absolutely, I would probably not be that objective about it. So I suppose that's why I'm interested in quite how he was viewed in Australia before he wrote this book. I find that type of stuff really distracting. I just want to get into a story and not have anything

on the kind of further horizon than what's on the page. So that's interesting. Yeah, no, I just definitely would like to know a bit more. Well, I suppose what's caused a lot of comment, well, caused comment back in Australia when it first came out was that people were really shocked by the biographical elements of this book because they thought of Trent Dalton,

who was by then in his 40s, as an accomplished middle-class type. And in fact, of course, this book reveals that he had the toughest start imaginable we need to just detail what the book is about i think before we start chuntering away because we kind of make the assumption that you're with this edition of the podcast because you have read the book but perhaps you haven't so boys wallace universe is basically the story of two young brothers growing up in i don't know how the correct terminology in Australia, but in America

you call it a housing project. We would call it council housing or social housing in the UK. They are not from a wealthy part of Brisbane. And we meet Eli and Gus as they are dealing with their stepfather, Lyle, who they love enormously, their their mum who they absolutely adore but they're really dealing with their mum and their stepfather's decision to start doing a bit of drug dealing as a way to fund their own drug habit and to fund their addictions and then their father is not in the picture initially because because Because they've become estranged from him and there's definitely a story you realise at the beginning about why their mother left their father

and it becomes clearer and clearer that it was a serious incident that involved putting the boys in danger. So the book starts, I think, with this, as often, a really, really good children's book starts with this sense that the kids have been rather abandoned. You are living in their world and you are seeing everything through their eyes. And Gus is a elective or selective mute.

We're not quite sure at the beginning. He's decided not to speak. So he writes everything as a form of communication kind of in the air around him just with his finger. And parts of this book are complete fantasy and other parts of this book are absolutely true and events that really did happen. And unbelievably, there is a character in the book called Slim Halliday, who is a former convicted murderer, although I think in real life he always claimed his innocence, who acts as the boy's babysitter.

And he really existed, and he was a part of Trent Dalton's childhood, which is just incredible. And he's a lovely example, I think, of what is really, really good characterisation in the book, because you do believe that he's a good man who's done bad things, which is sometimes a cliché when it's written,

but he's really thoughtful towards the kids. They look to him for friendship and everything that's missing from their parents' ability to look after them properly. I've got to say, this isn't a book for the lazy reader. And I realise when I read books like this that I am quite a lazy reader. There's a part of me that rather enjoys being spoon-fed and I don't want to have to make too many decisions myself. I don't really, if I'm honest, I do struggle with books

that verge from absolute fact into the realms of fantasy within a couple of sentences. I'm never going to pretend that I seek those books out. And if I'm honest, there were elements of this book that I did struggle with. So there's a room underneath Eli and Gus's house that the young boys decide that they're going to break into that is just a completely a kind of dugout room with nothing else in it apart from a red telephone. And as you read through the book, the phone rings sometimes and there's a voice at the end of it and you are left thinking is this magic realism is this just massive metaphor is it some kind of a dream we'll hear

a little bit more from trent dalton about it in our interview but you see i i don't mind being challenged in a book at all and what i really liked about this jane because i don't enjoy magical realism whatsoever whatsoever but what i stand it. Whatsoever. But what I liked about this book is I think it took you right up to the... It's like you're on the beach. You can dip your toes into a little bit of fantasy, but then you retreat back to the beach. You do not have to go into the water at all.

It is not one of those books where the plot is distended by magic at all. It's just this little element that when you reach the end of the book does get explained to you, so I didn't mind that. But I just enjoyed the book more than you did. No, I mean, I think it is simple. I mean, I know it's coming to Netflix, as so many things do. It's coming to Netflix in the new year,

and I am intrigued to, I will watch it, just to see how they deal with those elements i wonder in a way whether it might work better on screen than it does for me on the page but i mean it's these things are really personal and you you are either going to be able to go with it or like me you just sort of sigh a bit and turn a page and wait till it gets back to the real life stuff again. Did you not enjoy the description of teenage life in the suburbs of a major city somewhere in the 1980s? Yeah, no, that, you see, that's,

but that for me is where, that's what I like about books. I mean, I didn't like The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe once they went into the wardrobe. I preferred it when they were just describing their real life at home. I just, I didn't really, and their real life at home I just I didn't really I and you you're either you've either got that mindset or you haven't but I think it's a

failing in me I would say not not in authors it's me I can't go there I thought he was so humorous sometimes about what it's like as a as a teenage boy and just all of those scenes when they're riding around on their bikes and they're just obsessed with cold drinks and you are you know before you can talks about the cold drinks in the interview but before you have enough uh money you know or or you know any kind of resources to to go and buy serious things your world you are obsessed with chewing gum sweets and cold drinks and i think all of that kind of detail in it even though i didn't know exactly what sodas they were drinking. I really loved that. And also the thing that really kept me going, Jane,

is it doesn't matter how often these boys are let down by the adults around them. And, you know, huge harm comes to Lyle, their stepfather, because he gets too involved in drugs and tries to do a kind of backhand deal. Don't, by the way, don't get involved in drug dealing and tries to do a kind of backhand deal. Yeah, don't, by the way, don't get involved in drug dealing. Don't do it.

It doesn't seem to end well for anyone. But Lyle goes and their mum ends up back in prison and they have to go and live with their dad and he's an alcoholic and his indifference towards them is just so bloody painful. Nothing really works out in their world, but it doesn't matter how much they are disappointed by the adults around them, both and gus particularly eli just keep going with the sense of hope that somehow when they get to the adult world they'll be okay and as an adult you know

that that's not always true and they believe that somehow they can play a part in their own fate, which, again, as an adult, you know children really can't. So I loved that theme of just endlessly believing. And it didn't matter how much the adults let them down, they just kept going. But that's the tragedy, isn't it? That children, however poorly treated, do have a heartbreaking tendency to be really loyal to their caregivers. And that's what made the book, I thought, really fantastic.

I mean, I should say as well, if you only know Australia, and I've never been to it. Have you been to Australia? Yes. I haven't been, and I don't really want to go, only because of the length of flight, which would be totally irrelevant. The only Australia I know is The Thorn Birds, Neighbours, and what was that really terrifying film about the girls' school and the disappearing girls that go off in the middle of the night?

Oh, Picnic at Hanging Rock. Picnic at Hanging Rock. And there's a lot of, we assume that the sun is always shining, that on the whole everyone's got a swimming pool. And this is a very, very different side of Australia, isn't it? It certainly is. It's the estates of Brisbane back in the 80s and we'll hear it described in a moment or two.

There is a, just on that point, I think it's Bish Dang, who is the... The local drug lord. Yeah, drug lady. Yeah. Oh, yes, that's right. Yes, lady. She says this thing about how she thinks that Australians will never ever be able to get out of their misery because their childhood is just so idyllic for exactly those reasons that they have sunshine they uh you know they have beautiful places that are easily accessible they believe themselves to be in charge and so when you get to adult life and all of the

reality of the world hits you you're absolutely stuffed but something else that i learned from this was that i did i mean i should have known have known this. I did not know that Australia played a part in the Vietnam War, that it sent a lot of troops there, that hundreds died. Many, I gather now, were noted for their bravery in that conflict. And I just didn't know about the impact of all that on Australia. I didn't even know it had a Vietnamese community. I should have known that. And I think it is a measure of how little we know sometimes

about the rest of the world well look you see you're learning i'm learning as i go along right let's do uh some of your fantastic emails this one comes in from nick and this is about the length of the book which quite a few of you have picked up on uh she says or he says i do not know i would likely not have picked up Boy Swallows Universe without your book club so thank you for picking it and for the cheerleaders who said stick with it to start with the blurb and the length were a little off-putting along with the reviews which suggest it's Marmite I started with the audiobook but that wasn't for me as I was struggling to get to grips with the characters and the storyline so I bought the book instead and I'm so glad that I did. Having had some trepidation at the start,

not least because I'm not keen on the abstract, such as Gus writing in the air, your end is a dead blue wren, over and over. That is a key part of the book. Well, I agree. I agree with our correspondent. I was, however, quickly bowled over by the characters and the story and I couldn't put it down. I loved the warmth of the main protagonist.

I was cheerleading a potential murder and escape artist who was an excellent babysitter. And that's the lovely character of Slim. And Nick ends by saying, it didn't all work for me. The meaning of the big red telephone belongs in the English A-level literature class I left behind many moons ago. And some of the characters, such as Titus and

Iwan, Iwan, Iwan, felt a little bit clichéd. Overall, it's a 4.5 from me. And this is from Anne, who describes the book as a long old slog, but she's finished it. Would I have chosen this book if I'd seen it in a shop or a library? No. Am I glad I've read it? I'm not

really sure right now, she says. I found the subject matter harrowing and even more so when I read the author's notes at the end and discovered it seems to be loosely autobiographical. The level of trauma was relentless and the only thing that kept me going was the realisation that the children being raised in an environment like that have no other yardstick

and so can still find joy and love in their lives as they know nothing different. It was well written though and the descriptions were so vivid I really felt I was immersed in the world of Eli and August which wasn't an easy place to be. I'd be interested to know what your Australian listeners thought of the descriptions of suburban life. Yes well we'll throw that one out there and it is worth saying of course that although the trauma is considerable in the book um at the end the central character eli is already working at a newspaper he's got out he's become the man he wanted to be and he's continued in that vein so it's not altogether desperate stuff it's not bleak

and the ending i think we're going to get on to talk about this, I think is slightly different to the rest of the style of the book, actually. And it starts turning into a really kind of, a very pacey, almost too done it, doesn't it? Yes, you do need to keep going because there is a pacey and satisfying conclusion.

This answers some of your questions about how Australians might feel about it. This comes in from Sophie Cockcroft who says, I would have given up on this book in the first third. I'm not usually into dark, macabre stories, but after Halfway, it gripped me. And the reason is I lived in Brisbane for 20 years. I know clearly the places described, such as Boggo Road and Sumner Park, even Jindalee High high school where one of eli's crushes goes i lived about 10 kilometers away from the drug addled suburbs where the action is set i

had absolutely no idea why all my work colleagues seemed to be so snobby about those suburbs south of the river i can't say i loved the book but it was very evocative of brisbane some colleagues had grown up in this kind of environment and worked themselves out of it as presumably Trent Dalton did. And she goes on to say in 2020 I had a job that required me to take a train down from Indoor Rapili to Ipswich. The whole feel of the suburbs just changed as the train left the city. Each five minute stop brought the house prices down by about $50,000 and by the time it got toragh, Fibro, that's weatherboard and asbestos houses, lined the railway tracks and cars could be seen abandoned in driveways. It was still rough. And she goes on to say, I'll definitely watch the series when it comes out,

if only for a taste of my adopted home. Well, that's a really great email, that one. Thank you very much for that. What was the name of that correspondent? Our correspondent is Sophie Cockcroft. Thank you, Sophie Cockcroft. Adopting the book club, Book Voice. Thank you. Okay, let's hear from the author, Trent Dalton, because here he is.

He was, by the way, lovely and charming and so grateful to all of you for taking the time to read it and to take part in the book club. But here he is taking us to his Brisbane back in his adolescence in the 1980s. Incredibly multicultural Australia, first off, but we're at the beginnings of what we are now in the 1980s, particularly in my home city, Brisbane, highly corrupt.

So that story that you might have read, boy, is a family caught up in crime. This is all true. Like, you know, my mum fell in love with this guy and he was on the fringes of a very dark kind of connected criminal sort of um connections around the city of Brisbane which was run by a government that was highly corrupt so by the 19 in the 1970s it was just well from about the 50s to the 60s to the 70s so Slim Halliday who was a real guy in my life like I call him the babysitter in in my book it's not quite that he was just around our house like all the time

and uh the guy lyle um who's the you know the first man i ever loved he he he paid slim money to do odd jobs just to keep him in employment after he got out of prison those two guys met in bogger road men's prison and um and uh but they were both on the fringes of this corrupt queensland where you had cops on the payroll of dodgy politicians and dodgy gangsters and incredibly corrupt um scary place and in the mid-1980s was starting to see the change of that so this um yeah some great police officers great great uh premiers came in and just sort of swept all that away and sort of it brought it came a, a lot of great journos brought that to light here in Brisbane. And, you know, places like the Courier Mail that I went to work for, that Eli Bell goes to work for, you know, really exploded some of that stuff.

And, yeah, so this is, Boy Swallows University is a story of a family caught up in the wider picture of a corrupt state that's still finding its feet you know and this is so mind you okay cut to like 2023 we're about to host the olympics like that's how far this city of mine has come like we were just considered such a like a backwater in many ways and people thought we talked slow and uh like queensland has talked too slow and all that like down in sydney you know and we were considered as the slow upper cut you know cousins are up in the north you know and it's sort of by the 1990s started become some really great novelists and then by the 2000s we found our real you know and by the by the 2020s you know i i think some of our leading writers are coming out of my city and we're all writing about we're all products of that world that i'm describing to you

you know and um and i'd never read you know working class stories of this of the brisbane that i knew which was housing commission sort of social housing brisbane which is something i was very familiar with them there's a lot of parts of brisbane um really sweet you know jacaranda trees these purple jacaranda trees that we have here in Brisbane. A lot of people wrote about that and I was always going, how come no one's ever writing about the housing commission sort of homes that I knew, you know, like your version of estates or, you know, those things I'd read about so much in your part of the world.

I sort of thought, oh, you know, can I read some of those sort of stories? I'm really proud that like so many people here in my city read Boy Swallows Universe and go, oh, wow, thanks for finally writing about my 1980s. Can I ask you a bit more about Gus? He is a really intriguing character and has elective mutism and the ability to see the future, which actually casts him in the run of a lot of characters in great literature

who have that kind of soothsayer ability but did you as a writer ever worry about leaning into that too much because you you can take that too far can't you where you don't really need a plot because you can just say this person has magical powers they've seen the future I mean it's quite hard to do I think you pull it off but it is hard to do yeah it is definitely i consider you know a lot of people say oh there's a love the touch of magical realism in it and i just don't even think it's the case i don't i i consider magical thinking from my own childhood i'm honest like it would you know there's blood on the walls and there's holes in the fibro and you're looking at a golden orb weaver spider out your window. That's just a choice, and it's a magical choice for a kid to do

whose life is just swirling, right? There's drugs and alcohol and all that, and you're choosing to find the magical thing. That's just realism. That's just real to me, that type of stuff. And I leaned into that because I you know, I had this brother, one of those three beautiful brothers of mine. There are three different versions of Gus.

My brother Jesse had all the wonder. He's like Oscar Wilde if he had to grow up in a social housing area in Brisbane, Bracken Ridge, Brisbane. There's Obi-Wan Kenobi, my brother Ben, who was just all the wisdom. And then my older brother Joel, who's King Arthur, he was the guy who shouldered it all and and got us through in a in a strength way and uh and he's absolutely amalgam of that but this guy jesse in particular like he would do all that drawing in the air stuff you know if if we remember gus he does that that was my beautiful boy jesse who just and we dream and and it was to him that like you know that if i ever fantasized

about busting into boggo road women's prison to like see my mom in real life like on on christmas day when i'm like eight years old it was to jesse you know and we would dream that sort of stuff and so this book was all of those magical thoughts that i never got to fulfill you know what i mean but the thinking of them is very real to me you know what I mean so it's sort of yeah but you're so right fee that you don't want if you I really tried to tread lightly about that but a lot of his selective mutism is is me that was me when I was a boy as all this stuff was going on I just watched everything and I barely said a word before I was eight and plus because I had three very boisterous older brothers but also just I think I was just constantly on edge just watching stuff go down and kind of always um

silently watching and observing and then you know of course I'd become a journo like it's the perfect training you know for um you know an observer to go into the field of just taking notes and watching people and did you Trent have a teacher who looked out for you? Ah, countless, Jane. I went to a place called Nashville High. It's now called Brackenridge State High. And Shirley, well, here's the coolest thing about writing books. You don't know, you know, I was a bit of a, I wasn't the best student.

And I'll tell you something that happened. So Shirley Adams was my teacher, English teacher. She's 90 now. And I wrote a you something that happened. So Shirley Adams was my teacher, English teacher. She's 90 now. And I wrote a book called Love Stories, my second book after Boy Swallows Universe. And I sat on the busiest corner in my street with a sign saying, sentimental writer collecting love stories. I sat there for two months on a typewriter, an Olivetti typewriter that was bequeathed to me by my best friend's mom. And I sat there for two months and I wrote this big sweeping book called Love Stories and it was all just collected stories of random 150 people

stopped in my city and just told me love stories. Anyway, I got to send that book to my English teacher, Shirley Adams, who was essentially, you know, really that amazing teacher who comes around and kind of helps the boys in that moment. She has to kind of, she's kind of urging their dad to kind of, come on, come on, you've got to dig in now and look at like that's all true jane like don't even get me started i'll get emotional talking about that that is my old man sort of battling his demons to

kind of in real life that's so true like he's the reader and like all that stuff about piles of books and stuff that's my old man just getting these like saint vincent de paul's sort of you know op shop um books and just piling them up in our house. And we could, you know, take your pick. Merry Christmas. Here's a $2 paperback type thing. But that, all that, that's these teachers at Bracken and Chyre coming around our place and going, hey, like,

we think these boys are destined for something. We don't know what it is, but if they can stop being smart asses and stop being so miserable and try and stop staring out the window all the time, they might actually sort of do something worthy, worthy of even the stuff that you're passing down to them. This guy, my beautiful dad, Noel, always passed down, you know, always read a book and all that sort of wonderful stuff. And it all comes from that.

And that's the, that's the great tragedy actually died of like cigarettes and like smoking too much. And, and he never got to see, actually. He died of, like, cigarettes and, like, smoking too much and he never got to see, you know, like, that's so true, that Robert Bell character, like, his love of books, but he never got to see his son's book in a bookshop and that's like... But, you know, let alone him talking to you guys, you know, like him hearing me talk to you guys would just be one

of the greatest things for him ever, you know. Stop it. Yeah. Oh, I don't know. I could hear more of this. It's fine. No, no, no. It's true it's true it's interesting um the divide that you see between us as brit readers and uh your own readers in australia because actually i think the detail uh is kind of universal in the book but there are those glorious currencies of uh particularly cold

drinks amongst the young boys out there. And I didn't recognize a single one of those, but I kind of know what they are. But also you've got it. Yeah. Yes. I don't know. Definitely. Definitely. And I don't and I think actually for me, that was one of the joys of reading the book was that it isn't set in a world that I automatically know. So, you know, it keeps you intrigued. Katie, though, I have to ask you this question. She wondered, Trent, why there were so many mentions of the word bitumen. What's, like, what's bitumen for you guys over there?

Well, I think it's just tarmac, is it? Is it tarmac? Tarmac. Tarmac. It's a smell that most people would recognise. Yeah, but you do reference it. She she's right you do reference it a lot oh i'm sorry katie that is so brilliant love to you katie that is so funny um but yeah yeah bitumen bitumen roads bitumen streets like like grazes from bitumen on my kneecaps like just bitumen as part of my dna like it's like yeah tom that must be like go out and

you know yeah play cricket on the you know kick a kick a footy around around on the bitumen yeah and it's like oh but see what i'm getting at with that stuff is just like that is my that is my sacred places you know like hot tar in summer bris you know, baking heat so hot, it looks like an oasis in a desert and you're having a can of Posito and inside is a drug deal or something happening. And you know that it's happening, but you're just focusing on your passion fruit soft drink and your billabong chocolate ice cream and it's summer and it's melting over your

fingers and you're you're just that's all you need and and it's like what i'm getting at is those you know when you're going through that stuff those simple things those simple things as a like a one dollar soft drink becomes you know yeah truly sacred and but that's its place and i i have this thing wherever i write i do these you know i call this thing i have a piece of paper on my um on my near my computer and i say five cents it it's so ridiculous it's like three words like five cents that like if i'm struggling to evoke a scene it's five cents it like what does the passion fruit soft drink smell like what does it taste like how sticky is it um what does it mean to you and then and then if you have all those things then you get to what i call the sixth sense which has nothing to do with

like spooky stuff i'm talking about love and the soul and and like just all those important things that remind us why we're here so if you get all those five right you might nudge towards that sixth one which is sort of what i'm trying to get at by the very last page of that book do you worry that those things will get lost when it turns into TV? I mean, it has turned into TV, hasn't it? Netflix are doing it. So as a writer, do you worry a bit that that glorious detail goes? Yeah.

Yeah, you do, Fi. Yeah, it's a really, it's a trust exercise. And I did just make one request and I tried not to really put my stamp on that show at all. And they have made this eight part epic and it's kind of coming your way. Like it's going to like 150 countries across the world, which is just surreal to me. And a power of, as you say, like universal storytelling. I was really worried, like, you know, how does this place called Dara, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, translate to anywhere overseas? But you're right.

You go through that granular kind of universal touchstones that we all know, you know, that's how you connect. But I just said to them, please make sure you capture a certain light that we have here in Brisbane at 5 p.m. on a summer's day and capture a certain light that we have here in Brisbane at 5pm on a summer's day and catch a certain sap on a tree. And if you keep capturing those little things like I tried to do in the book, it'll feel like that, you know, and because it's very important that you get back to the main thing I wanted to say to them, though, please just remember that this isn't some sort of Australian gangster epic. It's an epic Australian family story.

And, you know, talk about universal stuff. Like I told all the filmmakers this. I said I have this message that I got on. I received in my DMs on Instagram, and it was from a South Korean reader, right? This boy, he's like 15 15 and he read the South Korean, the Korean translation of Boy Swallows Universe. And he sent me this message and he goes, Treno, I have no idea where Dara, Brisbane,

Queensland, Australia is, but I just want you to know I read the Korean translation of Boy Swallows Universe and because I read that book, I've decided to live to adulthood. And I was like, yeah, yeah and yeah right right I know that's it gives me chills when I say and I just go that is so powerful and it's like that's a South Korean kid reading about Eli and Gus and Slim and all these just Brisbane people who are troubled and kind of working hard to sort of find their way and And, you know, I just found that anyway, I just kept on really reiterating that type of thing to the filmmakers

and just going, please remember that. And that's what you're doing here. And now there's a chance that like even so many more 15-year-olds across the world might see that and kind of take that message. And that's very powerful. Voice Over describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. that message and that's very powerful. from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. That was Trent Dalton, who is a delight to talk to on the old Zoom.

And genuinely, he seems just delighted that people are taking an interest in the book all over the world, which is brilliant. And obviously, I wonder, we didn't get on to asking whether he'd played any part in the old Netflix adaptation, whether he's in charge of it, whether he's had a say on who plays who. It'd be interesting to know, wouldn't it? But we didn't ask him, so it's too late now.

But sometimes writers get really fed up with that question, don't they? Because they've written this beautiful thing that's come out of their imagination and all anybody wants to know is, is Nicole Kidman in it? I don't think she is. No. My apologies for the accent there.

My apologies, everybody. There's a hint of smethic about that. Anyway, I thought the way the conversation ended there with Trent just talking about that young reader in South Korea, somebody who read this book and felt I felt seen and felt heard and has now decided I think maybe adulthood is something I want to have a taste of yeah that's brilliant so I just I think that's what's really really lovely about the writing wherever you are on the spectrum of a discontented or abusive childhood or just a disappointing childhood,

anyone who's ever been a kid and been disappointed by an adult, and I think that's probably 98% of the population, I think you so root for Eli and Gus. I just think they're beautifully well-drawn, naive characters, if that makes sense. But I think if you were reading it as a much, much younger person, and actually I think teenagers would enjoy the book just as much as us extremely elderly by comparison people. Because there are no barriers to entry. It's not written in a terribly kind of affected style of prose

or anything like that. Well, you see, I think I looked up the Times original review, actually, which described it as having an idiosyncratic prose style. And interestingly, in the book, when Trent's character, Eli, becomes a journalist, he disappears slightly up his own fundament

and his own editor at the newspaper tells him off for being a little too flowery in his language, which might be his way of acknowledging that some people might find the start of this whole book a bit too much for them yeah possibly i love the detail you know me give me an adjective and i'll turn it into four uh shall we talk about the characters and the content this one comes in from liz who wishes us a very Merry Christmas. You too, Liz. After finally tracking down the title, I dived into this book and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Congratulations to Trent. I'm exactly like another one of your listeners who wrote to say that they love reading, but can never think of anything intelligent to say about a book afterwards. We are here for you, Liz. Just listen to us. We haven't got a clue. We just like books. My thoughts and feelings about the book

was that it was full of really likeable characters. Eli, August, the mum, Slim, Lyle, and even the dad to an extent. And I found myself really rooting for Eli and August and being unable to put the book down until I knew that they'd survived their horrendous upbringing and were able to function as independent adults.

An interesting point here though, Jane, my only critique was that I found it a little unbelievable that they made it to school at all, considering they live with their alcoholic father who couldn't even feed them, let alone register them in a school and make sure they attended every day. But I did love the unravelling of the Moonpool backstory

and how we were left to decide for ourselves whether August had special powers or it was just a result of their childhood trauma and PTSD. See I think it was the latter. I think it's your brain just telling you that you have superpowers to cover up for the fact that quite a few times in your life you really haven't. I also I think it's worth saying and Trent does say in the interview the help he got from teachers. So sometimes it is a miracle that some kids get to school. And I know it's not unknown in this country, and I'm sure it happens all over the world, that there's a member of staff that certainly was at my children's primary school

whose job was to get the children to come to school. You know, he'd head out to houses and make sure that they came, as simple as that. And there were teachers in Trent Dalton's life who really looked out for him. You know, sometimes, I'm sure I've said it before, but we just don't appreciate teachers enough. They play such a big part in making sure that every child does have a chance at education.

This is a lovely email from Anna, who is a professor, although she says, I'm a scientist and I'm not very good at writing eloquently, like many of your talented listeners. Can I just say, Anna, that no male professor would say that. Own it, girl. You're a professor. You don't have to apologise to us for describing yourself as not very good at writing because, by the way, you're also really good at writing. Anna says, I love this book. It surprised me, though, after your tentative warnings to just try to get through the first couple of pages and stick with it.

It was much more fascinating and emotional than the previous two books suggested for your book club. It described the gritty reality of two boys growing up in the very tough suburbs of Brisbane. Naively, I hadn't really thought of any city in Australia having areas of deprivation. I was fascinated by the original and realistic images of Eli and his mute brother living amidst extreme poverty, crime and violence, while still finding pockets of love and humour and happiness.

That is reality for a lot of people, and I think it's important we try to understand that some people are born into this type of lifestyle. important we try to understand that some people are born into this type of lifestyle. I also love the intriguing links in the chapter titles and the potential surreal component with the red phone in the room. It isn't the type of book I would read, very similar to Demon Copperhead, in fact. So I'm now ready for some nice Elizabeth Strout novels about middle class life in Maine. Okay, well, we'll see if we can sort of head in that general direction next time we choose a book. But Anna, thank you very much for your involvement. We appreciate it. And I completely understand that desire to dive into books

that kind of affirm your own mind and, you know, the way that you live. But I guess what the book club exists to do is to slightly push that, push that around a bit, Jane. There are two here that mention the book by Barbara Kingsolver, Demon Copperhead, as being better examples of young boys really up against it in the world. This one comes from Wendy, who says,

I've just struggled to finish Boy Swallows Universe. When I got to page 152, I wondered if this violent and gory book was really your choice. Too much for me. I've just read Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingsolver, also the tale of a boy growing up amidst drug and alcohol abuse and domestic violence set in the Appalachian Mountains, isn't it? In the opioid crisis. This one is clever in that it references David Copperfield.

And it's a similar point from Clare, who very much enjoyed Demon Copperhead, to much more than this book. And to coin a phrase, Clare says, there was too much dick waving. Even the old man gardening had to have his wrinkly old dick out. That's apparently page 320.

By way of further explanation i only finished this book because i was on holiday otherwise i would not have given my precious time to it and claire says i can hear fee in her measured tolerant way extolling the importance of hearing what men are saying but for me it wasn't just that the only male view was represented but there were no strong female characters either i have to to confess, I didn't even really notice that as I was reading through but I'm sure you're right, Claire. There was the teacher. The teacher was

good and Caitlin's spy is obviously there and his mum. Well, she kind of tries to be there. She tries to be there. I'd forgotten about the gardener so thanks for that reminder. It's been a while since I read it. yes but the gardener does anyway uh yes i i take your point and all views are welcome uh so the book is boys swallows universe and it's by trent dalton and

that's been our book club pick and so far it has been the one that has attracted the biggest response so uh for that um well we need to acknowledge that don't we um however weighty it was people wanted to get involved which is brilliant absolutely uh can i just say thank you to tamzin who says she's still in thailand is she yes she is is she ever gonna come back i don't know more detail needed terms and uh if trent comes into chat on show, could you ask him what gets good? And this is because she's had a book signed by Trent Dalton and it says, It gets good.

Always love Trent Dalton. And Tamsin says, Must I persevere if I don't like the beginning of it? Or does he mean that life gets good? Thanks again. I think it's life. I think it's both. Definitely life. Because that's the kind of message of the book isn't it yeah because he ends up working for the

same employer as us i mean so life gets very good what's not to like there so would you go on to read another book by trent dalton jane garvey well he talked, I don't know whether it's made the final edit of the interview, but he's written a book called Love Stories, hasn't he? Yeah, he sat on the corner of a street in Brisbane and set up a little table and a typewriter and asked people wandering by to tell him their love stories and wrote them all up. Which sounds like a really good concept.

Yeah, I'm definitely going to. It's a world full of books, Fi. To try more of his writing so i think what i like about his writing more than anything is you know probably some of the stuff that puts people off which is the sometimes rather overblown prose the really detailed descriptions when he talked in the interview about covering all of the five senses to get to the sixth sense as a writer that really made sense to me as a reader so i love a writer who absolutely takes you into the room and describes how it smells and what they're feeling and everything that's the kind of writing i like i don't really like very sparse stuff where you have to kind of put your own intellect onto it.

I think I read to get away from the void. Sometimes I keep reading a book because I like the typeface. I mean, you know, I'm really weird. And sometimes I've enjoyed books more than I expected to because I love the print. Well, that is a bit strange. That's a terrible confession. So, Trent Dalton has been wildly

successful on the strength of this book and obviously has many more books in him. And genuinely, I'm interested to see what he comes up with next. He's done love stories. Has there been anything else? I forgot to Google this. Oh, yeah, no, he's written quite a lot. It'll say in the beginning of your book here. But I think

he still writes just as a journalist as well, doesn't he? So can we say a huge thank you to whoever it was who suggested the book in the first place? And we will now be taking thoughts as to what we're going to read next. And I know that my colleague over here is very much hoping that somebody just recommends, what did you say? A slim thriller. Slim thriller set in East West Kensington. No, don't, because the whole point is we're trying to read outside of our comfort zones. Well, I mean, the book I

wanted to talk about because it's had such a lot of attention is Claire Kilroy's book, but it's still not in paperback. So I don't want to go to a book that's not in paperback. No, and we can't recommend things because the whole point of the book club is that our listeners recommend stuff to us. Although I will just say, as this is for book lovers this podcast, let's face it, I'm reading a book at the moment called A New Life, which was recommended in the Times newspaper and

all I'll say about it is quite extraordinary. Set in 1894, it's about two men who get together to write, well, they haven't actually got together yet to write this book, but it's about essentially a married man who knows he's actually gay, but really hasn't had the option to be gay. And two women also fall in love. And it's astonishingly weird in the best possible way. And also, very erotic.

I've said it. And it's out now. So if anyone wants to pursue that, do so. Okay. It's by an author called Tom Crew. Is that one to read on your own? Can I take it on a romantic weekend or might it be misinterpreted? Well, I think it might be just the job, actually.

Right. So we'll take all of your suggestions. I would say as well that we won't bother to even start reading anything until after Christmas because everybody has got a list as long as their arm and we don't intend to add to it. So bung us your suggestions and we will decide the next book in the new year. Does that make sense? No, it does. And we'd welcome suggestions from outside the UK because as long as the book is easily available,

whether through a library or in paperback, that's what we're after. And if you think about the ones that we've done so far, so I know that you didn't enjoy Fresh Water for Flowers, but it took you to France. It took you to places in France. To a cemetery. That most books don't take you to.

Cemeteries. We have learnt loads about Nigeria through my sister, the serial killer. And now we've learnt lots and lots about Australia. So this is fantastic. I'm enjoying all of the recommendations. So yes, if we could go abroad again, that would be nice. Travel without a passport. Wonderful.

No, don't do that. It's illegal. Okay, that does explain why I've never got very far. We're bringing the shutters down on another episode of the internationally acclaimed podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. But don't forget that you can get another two hours of us every Monday to Thursday afternoon here on Times Radio.

We start at 3pm and you can listen for free on your smart speaker. Just shout Play Times Radio at it. You can also get us on DAB Radio in the car or on the Times Radio app whilst you're out and about being extremely busy. And you can follow all our tosh behind the mic and elsewhere on our Instagram account. Just go onto Insta and search for Jane and Fee and give us a follow. So in other words, we're everywhere, aren't we, Jane?

Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. I'm Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.