Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Book Club - Missing, Presumed

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

Jane and Fi are back with their sixth book club - get your celery sticks at the ready...'Missing, Presumed' was written by Susie Steiner. Her husband, Tom Happold, discusses Susie's work with Fi. Thank you so much for your engagement and interaction. We hope you'll join us for the next one.Get your suggestions in at: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfi Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Is this a book club? Yeah, sorry. It's other people's opinions. I'll go to the kitchen and fuddle around with the nibbles and bring them out shortly. If you could. You could chop some more celery sticks up because everyone really likes those. Actually, this is a white murder. Well, it's not, is it, as it turned out?

Although there was a murder, wasn't there? Because the father... Well, OK, so welcome to... Welcome to Book Club, book number... Book number six. Now, we have roamed across the world, haven't we, with our books? We've had books from Nigeria, from France, from Denmark, I think one was. From Australia.

From Australia. From Australia. From this country. Yeah. And again from this country. Yeah. So you have been reading Susie Steiner's first crime novel, which is called Missing Presumed. It's the first of three.

Not her first book, because she also wrote a novel called Homecoming. Which I've ordered only today. And I think, Jane, that this is our most overwhelmingly liked book so far. I think you're right. And I am glad it is, for a string of reasons, which we'll get onto during the course of our conversation. However, not, I mean, what's so wonderful about doing this whole thing is that not everybody did like it. And weirdly, some people didn't like the aspect of this book that I loved. And what I really liked about it, because I'm plunging in straight away,

is that... How unlike you. Yes, I know. It's like I'm entering the Olympic pool. By the way, I couldn't dive into the pool. I'd have to start on the side. But nobody seems to be doing that in the big races. Can't understand that.

Anyway, it's the fact that you do... First of all all that the central character is not perfect and that we also learn a great deal about her inconsistencies in her approach to life and also some of the foibles the good and the bad about her colleagues and i love that about this book but some people said that was the bit they didn't like and that i don't get so she's got a very strong internal voice, Susie Steiner, writing through Manon Bradshaw. Yeah. And I, when I first read this, the thing that I really loved about it was the really realistic stories in her head about her own self-doubt,

her lack of kind of self-worth, but also at the same time her absolute belief that she wanted to do right in the world through policing. And there's just something so beautifully written because you could write a totally flawed character, couldn't you? And actually in crime fiction, that kind of incredibly difficult home life, I've been a drunk, I've come back from it, yada, yada, yada, I'm a complete loner. Now I've read enough of that.

What, about the guy who's taken off the case but goes off and solves it anyway? Yes, all of that. There's loads of those. And he's had many broken relationships because nobody can understand his true genius. Except the truth is they all understand him, which is why they get rid of him. Well, you know, whatever that is. But Susie Steiner doesn't write her character like that. She is a fully rounded woman who does still believe in love and wanting a family, wanting to create goodness.

She doesn't feel it's kind of within her circumstances or against her. But she's just a really, really good police officer as well. And for all the times that she doubts that, she then comes back to the belief that she can do it and she really can do it. Yeah. So it just, for me, it has a velocity about it that is incredibly realistic. Can I just give a shout out to Hazel from Village Books in Dullet, who was the woman who originally recommended her to me, because we did a show, didn't we, down there?

We did. At a school. I was going to say prestigious, and I'll just say school in Dulwich. Yeah. And thank you if you came along to that. And it was a good couple of years ago. And we had been invited there, I think,

because the independent bookshop, which thrives down there, had been stocking our books. So we jollied along to talk about us. It's very unlikely, Jane. Honestly. It's very difficult. It was difficult because it was the last thing we wanted to do.

But, Hazel, yes, I want to echo what you said there because you have introduced me to a new favourite author. Yeah. And actually, there are few greater gifts. So I went home that night and ordered Susie Steiner and then, as many of our listeners have done, read the first one and just galloped through the other two and was so heartbroken to find that she had died. And we talk about this with Tom, her husband, just in a couple of moments time. So, you know, props to the independent bookshops of the world and to that lovely gift of recommending somebody a book.

And we're really grateful to all of you who've got stuck in and sent us your thoughts. So should we dive straight into those? Yeah, why not? Do you want to go first? Okay. No, actually... This one comes from Liz.

Yes. It's from Coventry. It's all pre-planned. But sometimes from Enfield. And that, Liz, needs a bit of explanation. Anyway, dear Jodofy, I borrowed this book from Coventry Library. For some reason, the library service had three copies, none of which were on the public shelves,

but were instead in some hard-to-reach archive, which could only be accessed on certain days of the week when a specific number of staff were on duty. So after a couple of visits, the librarian was finally able to give me a copy but not before he gave the book a long hard look as if mentally inquiring why the book was so keenly awaited having now finished and returned the book i'm hoping my borrowing of it will have set off an algorithm resulting in suzy steiner's books being given more public shelf

space in coventry and that does happen so we hope for that too. And Liz says this about the book, My enjoyment was because of the quality of the writing, and I don't mean that to sound pretentious. I genuinely enjoyed Susie's observations about life, relationships, emotions and inner thoughts. Almost with every paragraph, I would have a yes, that so true moment, which would make me smile. If I'm honest, I was less concerned about the circumstances

of the girl's disappearance though I was mildly intrigued to get to the end to find out and more absorbed by all of the relationships and side stories amongst the police characters. It made me realise that so often in books characters are two-dimensional whereas the police characters in particular in this book had other things going on in their lives which whilst not impacting on the storyline did provide context for who they were and why they reacted as they did in particular circumstances. When I thought about Manon, I was reminded a little bit of the character

that Nicola Walker plays in Unforgotten. You know, the woman who is doughty and determined but also does have, you know, she's got her dad living with her at home and there are all sorts of domestic complexities and complications that she has to deal with alongside the police work. And for some reason, it was that.

So I wonder if Manon were to get to television, and I don't really know why she hasn't. Wait and listen to the interview with Tom. Oh, OK. Oh, fantastic. OK, because that's coming up. Maybe somebody of Nicola Walker's ilk would be suitable for the lead role. Anyway, I love her. She's a great actress. This is from Sharon.

I've never emailed before and I really don't mind if this isn't read out well. Hard luck, Sharon. It's being read out. But I want to say thank you for the book club. I love reading books that I might not necessarily have chosen and to be part of a community to hear what others think, but without the excruciating self-conscious stuff of having to say what I think about it in a group and then fearing the judgment. Do I sound clever enough? Did I get it? Why does everybody else sound so literate?

Reading this back I realise of course that I just wasn't with the right people in a book club. I love this book club. Thank you. I hadn't thought about that. And I guess this is a safe place, isn't it? Because it doesn't matter, just as I've made a real cobblers of reading out your email, Sharon, it doesn't matter at all because there is no judgment here. And I often wonder whether I've got books. I sometimes do think, have I interpreted that right? So you're absolutely not alone, Sharon. I'm rather relieved to hear that other people think that too on to Manon she says uh this is one of my favorite books that I've read in a long time I should declare myself as an established fan of crime fiction however I haven't read any for a while and this was so refreshing a great page-turning read but with complex interesting interestingly written characters like Manon and Miriam and Davy.

As well as the plot and the characters, I thought the book gave an interesting insight into the politics and background pressures of the police force. I was really interested to read the research that the author had done, a clearly committed professional. I'm completely with you. I mean, I think, to go back to what I was saying earlier about the different aspects of some of the other colleagues in the book, I love the fact that Harriet, who is the, she's the detective inspector, isn't she? She's Manon's boss, because Manon is a detective sergeant, that Harriet has a friendship with an older woman who lives in a care home, who she visits.

who lives in a care home who she visits. And that's not necessarily the kind of detail that you hear in books. Plus Davy, her colleague, Manon's colleague, he works in a youth club and he has a difficult relationship with his really irritating partner, Chloe. And it's that, I absolutely gobbled that stuff up. They're all bringing these bits of themselves to work. And the development of the plot around Fly and... He's the young boy.

Yes. So we will discuss in full what happens in this book, but we're not going to spoil the other books. But just to say that if you are left wanting more of Fly, then that is a huge part of book number two and book number three. And that exploration of what maternal love is, I found beautiful, actually. And it's not so much in this book, the kind of trail starts in this book. But if you're enjoying that relationship or thinking, I wonder what happens next.

Plenty happens next. And actually in quite a realistic way, although we have had at least one correspondent say there's not quite enough of the reality of social services in this book. I guess that is a criticism you could make. It would be a lot longer, the book, if she had been able to go into the complexities of how you would adopt a young boy of this of this sort yeah and the rules and regulations and all of that but i suppose you know sometimes as a reader i'm happy to jump over those hurdles in my imagination

in order to not get kind of bogged down by it if you you know what I mean. Yeah, I am too. I just wanted to go with it. I wanted their friendship to flourish, actually, so perhaps I wasn't asking too many questions about the legalities. So was that the same Sharon that you've just read a bit from? Yes. Yes, OK. Well, you've been read by Jane, so I won't read out a following bit, Sharon,

but it was a lovely email. Can things get any better for you, Sharon? Quite possibly. This one comes from Helene, who is in Luton, who says, I've never been part of a book club, but I thought I would give your book a whirl. Absolutely loved Missing Presumed, as it wasn't just a crime novel. There was so much more going on.

The book had so many twists, and i didn't guess the ending at all i enjoyed it so much that my follow-on book is the sequel person's unknown this carries straight on and is equally as good so that's what we were just saying i guess too some people didn't like the ending and they didn't like uh the fact that um Edith pops up. Now, this one comes from Mary, who is a bit annoyed, actually, and she wanted to add her thoughts about grammar. I would love to hear from people who know what the right answer is here, so press on. So, I hope you will sympathise with this,

as only recently you talked about frustration with poor grammar. There were lots of examples which I could forgive if they were in dialogue, but pedantically, here we go, page 70, their home affairs correspondent is stood in the grey slush outside Edith's house. Yes. What's wrong with that, Jane? I was standing. OK.

Is that what you'd say? it's the is is that the present participle i is this a generational shift in the use of language because i i must admit i don't like it when people say i was sat by the by the prom i would yes and i think well no i don't think you were i think you were sitting on the prom. But people do seem to say it. Have they now started to write it as well? Well, I think that is Mary's point. Page 94, Davy is stood with his back to the wall.

I think, no, I see, oddly, I think that's okay. He's stood with his back to the wall. Come on, everybody will know. Some people, the grammar people will know out there. And other ones, Davy to the other side of Manon is sat bolt upright. People perching all stood still. And the final one. Will sat on the floor sipping wine.

She wonders, sat there in her airless lounge. So I'm just quite forgiving of all of those things. And I always just think, gosh, well, that's just how somebody else will say things quite possibly I'm not right but we do get picked up quite a lot about our grammar particularly our use of she and her on this podcast and I know that for some people it's nails down a blackboard so if that's you gosh I mean I kind of feel for you because it's going to happen more and more, not less and less, or fewer and fewer, which is the one that annoys me. Well done, Fiona.

I wonder, it's a bit of a sidebar, but I'm fascinated. I think the English language, like all languages, changes, is changing, is in constant flux. So I would love to know what other people think, whether they're in any way irritated by that. Shall we bring in your interview? What a good idea. So as many of you already know,

I think most of you know that Susie died and Tom is her husband. And he agreed to come in and do what obviously would usually be the author's interview for the book club. He's such a nice man. We've been in touch quite a bit, actually, over the last six months or so, because actually, I'd written to him to say how much I just really enjoyed Susie's work right from the get go. So he popped along to tell us everything that he could about the book, with the huge caveat that he didn't know that much about Susie's writing,

in the same way that your partner probably doesn't know huge amounts of what you do between, you know, nine and five on a job. So we were really grateful to him. And we did start by just discussing whether or not it was a bit uncomfortable for Tom to come on the podcast and do the interview. I don't think it is... Not huge amounts of people come and approach me and talk about... Well, they're going to.

...Susie's work. So I've not really had that experience. And it's quite strange in a world of Kindles in that I've never ever... I've met people who've read Susie's books in that I've never ever, I've met people who've read Susie's books, but I've never seen anybody. On holiday, I always look at sort of sun loungers on the tube. I've never seen anybody by chance reading her book.

So you are slightly cut off. And in some ways, after someone's died, it's upsetting but also nice to be reminded about them. So coming here, I think, you know, I slightly dug out the book to read it and thinking, you know, I got sent, oh, this is the sort of things we might ask about type email. And those, when you think about it, it is upsetting, but I think it's not a bad thing to be upset about these things and it's also nice at the same time yeah and it's perfectly natural to be

well we really appreciate you coming in our audience have really really loved the book and for many people it has been fantastic because they've discovered a new author and they can now read the subsequent books that she wrote but we have started at the beginning with Missing Presumed so I'd really like to ask you about the creation of Manon because she has such a strong internal voice and it is so lovely to many people that she worries about whether you know the waistband on her trousers is too tight and whether she's, you know, got food running down her T-shirt. But she also really worries about the massive social injustices in the world. So when did Susie first come up with Manon?

I don't know the answer to that question because if you live with a writer, what you find is they sort of disappear into their writing room and then reappear you know at the end of the day i knew that she so missing assumes her second novel her first novel is a sort of family saga um set in yorkshire that she'd spent years writing she eventually took time off work and finished it. And I think it's fair to say that nobody bought that novel at the time. And I think she then decided, I think she'd been interested in writing crime fiction, but I think she also decided that she wanted somebody to buy her books.

So to do a commercial genre. Yes. books so to do do a commercial genre yes and also i think um she'd always been um i felt her writing she was very good at characterization she was very good at description she was very good at dialogue but i think in her first novel she'd sort of struggled with plot and in some ways the sort of need for plot in a crime fiction and forces you to construct that right from the start. And also it's something that you can, you know, she was a journalist by trade, so you can draw on those skills. I'm sorry, I'm not really answering your question.

But I think I didn't know that she'd created the character Manon Bradshaw and who she'd created until I read a draft. OK, so I'm fascinated in the way that writers write. So was she a writer who did just disappear off into her room? It was her private world. You know, she didn't ask you to read through things or come out and go, oh, my God, I've just, you know, I've written this amazing plot twist here.

She did talk about it. Like, we had quite young children when she wrote it, so obviously you have no time to talk about anything apart from them but she did so she didn't come and say i've talked about this but often she talked to people about she talked to people about her research so um i can't remember why but you know in one of her books she kept on emailing her brother who's an nhs doctor about how you poison somebody and eventually he was, I've got to stop engaging with this on my NHS email. I can't have this conversation any longer. And, you know, so she was also in touch with a police officer

who helped her with her research. So she did talk about it. And she did also get people to read the drafts of her book. So I read the first draft of Missing and Presumed and her friend Sian did. And then you read subsequent drafts. And it's always slightly harder giving feedback the more drafts you get I would imagine it's quite hard giving feedback when you really love somebody as well I mean do you have to go into a kind of different mode or or not when I started going out with Susie

she mentioned that she'd been writing a novel for years at one point. And then at some point she gave me the manuscript. It kind of changed quite a bit before she published it, her first novel. And I remember just feeling a tremendous sense of relief that it wasn't terrible. So, you know, that you had to sort of maintain this rather promising relationship with somebody but not mention their novel was terrible. And because her novels were good, you could give honest feedback had to sort of maintain this rather promising relationship with somebody but not mention their novel was terrible. And because her novels were good,

you could give honest feedback. You know what I mean? So you... It was fine. It was fine because you... And also, I remember when I first read Missing Presumed, I'd been slightly worried when she said she was going to write a crime novel because I thought,

are you going to throw out your strengths to do something that you think will sell but also do something that has a strong plot? And when I read it, one, I think the novel has the first 100 pages. You know, it's a real page-turner at the start, but two, it has all those strengths in it. So, you know, in some in it so i would you know in some ways it was a you know i would so it wasn't stressful and it wasn't hard giving feedback because you

did obviously the majority was good but it's really interesting that you had those concerns about her moving into crime fiction because sometimes characterization cannot be the fleshiest part of a crime book and personally personally, I find that quite frustrating. The reason why I really love her work is because the characterisation is still so strong, isn't it? And of course, the plot, you know, takes you, keeps you turning the pages and whatever. But I think equally, you do want to know what's going to happen in Manon's life.

Did you recognise quite a lot of Susie in Manon? Was she that kind of person who just had quite a kind of natural self-doubt but was actually really brilliant? I think there are similarities between Susie and Manon. I can't remember. She once said somewhere that, you know... Would she have made a good cop?

No. Would you have made a good cop? No, I would say. Because, you know, when she was a reporter, she started off being a news reporter, and I met her when she'd moved into features, but I don't think she really liked the trains at 5am, get on the train, that sort of thing. So I don't think she really liked the trains at 5am, get on the train, that sort of thing. So I don't think she would have liked the first 100 pages of the book, they're working 24-hour days.

They're busy. I don't think she would have liked that. But I think the combination of a sort of steely sharpness and warmth that Manon has, I think she had. I think, I don't know if she was necessarily, if Raktor was sort of self-doubt, has. I think she had. I think, I don't know if she was necessarily, Ract was sort of self-doubt, but I think she had an awareness

of her self-doubt. An awareness of her own neurosis, if you know what I mean. Some people know their stuff and some people have no idea of their stuff. And she knew her stuff, so I think she had lots of similarities with Manon

um can I ask you when Susie realized quite how unwell she was and how she managed to carry on writing because she really was very unwell in the third book wasn't she no Well, she was, but she wasn't diagnosed. Right. And so she had delivered the Remain Silent before she was diagnosed, but only just before it. I think she sort of didn't know but didn't feel very well and felt sort of exhausted and sort of just sort of handed it on on time. Because I remember when she handed it in,

it's probably not the most loved things, but I remember thinking, are you sure it doesn't need another go at it? But I think she just couldn't do it anymore. And then after that that we came back from a holiday and she was because she hadn't been feeling right and various things and then she was diagnosed and then you sort of start on a sort of roller coaster she was diagnosed on a monday and had an operation on a friday um so and she didn't she did a bit more writing after she was diagnosed

but not that much so she tried to do some writing about Manon to promote the book because it came out after she was diagnosed and I don't think she could manage it because the treatment is so gruelling and also as your condition gets worse I think people find it harder and harder to

to sort of executive function is the term to sort of follow through on things and for sure for sure and you know uh detailed writing recollection of facts characters all of that kind of stuff, you can really understand how that would suffer. Would you ever want anybody to pick up the characters and carry on writing? Or do you want to, as a family, just leave Susie's body of work as it is? And equally, have you been approached for this to be made into TV, be made into a film? Well, it was optioned before by a television production company and I now know this.

You get optioned for a certain period of time and if they don't get a commission, it falls out, you know, it returns the rights to return to you. you know, it returns the rights to return to you. And actually, it's just recently been optioned by another company. Now, I asked Susie's agent, I said, can I talk about this? They said, yes, you can, but you can't say who the company is because it's not allowed. So that's just slightly unsatisfactory.

company is because it's not allowed but so that's a slightly unsatisfactory um in terms of i don't know how i'd how i'd feel about somebody taking on the books and continuing them but i slightly feel about um a television or film adaptation that you in some ways those things are good when people bring something extra to a novel or something, when they're utterly faithful. In some ways, they don't quite come alive. So, but I hope they would retain the character. I don't quite know why you would buy the rights to the book if you don't retain the character. Oh, absolutely, and the character.

You know, Man of Bradshaw is just absolutely superb. I mean, our listeners have just taken her to their hearts, really. And she says lots of things that I think as, you know, slightly older women, and she is a slightly older woman, you know, it's our internal voice as well. I think it's just absolutely beautiful writing within, you know, a really perfect genre, actually, for her to shine. So our huge thanks to Tom for coming in

and how wonderful if this was made into a TV series because I can see it all, Jane, can't you? There's something about the writing which is... Definitely. Well, because as we've already discussed, there's lots of dimensions to the characters. You can really, you would want to spend time with Davy and

Harriet. And they're relatively minor characters in this. And that's before we get to Manon and who could play her. Yes, I definitely think this is televisual. It's set in, this first book is set sort of around Cambridgeshire and London, isn't it?

Yeah, Cambridgeshire takes over a bit later. Yeah, but there's no reason why that, I mean, that's terribly, terribly televisual. Isn't it just? Yeah, so I would have thought, yeah, I just can't understand why it hasn't already happened. And there's, I mean, do you know what I was going to mention, actually, and I don't know if anyone else thought this,

I think the cover of the book, the book is missing, presumed, and the blurb says 72 hours to find her. I wonder whether that book, the cover, actually does the novel something of a disservice. I mean, I don't normally criticise covers, but I think it actually suggests that this is one of those murdered women books. And as it turns out that isn't the case is it no i quite like the cover do you okay maybe it's just me then um i just

wondered whether perhaps it might have put some people off because you know we have discussed in the past that there's just a limit to how much of murdered women a lot of women can take yeah um and yes and nice and nice man just met lots of men but anyway that was just my thought should we go to some comments from Insta yes please H Coleman

I'm looking forward to hearing a discussion on this one and because it's all about balance I'm going to come out and say overall I was actually

a bit disappointed seems like this would be an unpopular opinion but I thought the book didn't live up to the promise of the first couple of pages the characters annoyed me but I thought the book didn't live up to the promise of the first couple of pages. The characters annoyed me, and I thought the dialogue was poorly written.

But hey-ho, this is why book clubs are brilliant things. Fair enough. And Claire, I've recently finished this, really enjoyed it, which surprised me, as I usually stay clear of crime novels, because I've always thought crime to be a genre I didn't enjoy. But this book has proven me wrong. A couple of extra ones as well, because we really appreciate everybody writing in

and I'm sorry that we can't get through every single email that arrives. This is from Louise in Hampshire. Shout out to Hampshire, who didn't understand Manon at all and says her storyline seemed to leapfrog from gritty murder mystery to Bridget Jones and back again. That's what, again, that's what I loved. That's exactly what I loved because it is possible to be a brilliant detective

and also to fancy a love life. What's the problem? Well, Louise just did it. This is a book club. It's other people's opinions. I'll go to the kitchen and fuddle around with the nibbles and bring them out shortly It'd be good

You could chop some more celery sticks up because everyone really likes those But Louise goes on to say, on the plus side the book taught me many new words including peccadilloes, acolyte, lugubrious which I'm sure will come in handy in my day to day life and she says I'm intrigued to hear what other people think

maybe I'm missing something after all I had to look up what lugubrious means so what do I know well the point is Louise you know your own opinion and we are grateful to you for passing it on Charmaine says unusually for me I gave up on this book as I found it so frustrating the unnecessary use of long words and just rambling rather than getting on with the story, which I suppose accounts for the length of the book. I turned instead to Nobody Walks by Mick Herron, which I may have heard about from one of your shows.

I'm always writing down recommendations, but not where they come from. Anyway, I'm really enjoying this book. Well, you'll be very pleased to know that Mick Herron is on the podcast. By the time you hear this, he was on yesterday. Wow. Isn't that weird?

Isn't time incredible? It is very strange. And I would like to end with an excerpt which Jackie had noted, and it really made me laugh as well, this one, but do you want to do this as a final one, if that's okay? Do you want to squeeze some more in? I know the one you mean.

This is from Louise. I don't think it's odd at all to have chosen a book written by somebody who has died recently. I can only hope that the fact you've introduced her to listeners like me is a comfort to her family. I doubt I'd have picked this book up if it hadn't been your book club recommendation. It made me think of the singer Eva Cassidy. I think because she died young, also from cancer, just as her career was taking off. It didn't stop me wanting to listen to her music. Looking forward to hearing the discussion and also the interview with Tom, her husband. Well, Louise, I hope you've enjoyed what you've heard so far.

And I just want to mention Alex. This was a brilliant story, which wasn't easy to predict. And the cast of characters were so believable and relatable, especially Manon. The ending left me with a positive feeling and when i finished the book i felt satisfied i even did an audible hmm when i closed the book for the last time that's a nice noise isn't it oh i know exactly what she means actually the point i was also going to make was that i thought you know when manon found she found a blokeke and had a fling with him, I actually thought he was going to be a badden. And he kind of was, but he wasn't.

Yeah. That led me up a bit of a blind alley. I thought, my God, no, don't, because this guy, he's the bad one. But then he was an absolute prat, because do you remember how he dumped her? He said, he sent her a message saying he was looking for somebody exceptional. he sent her a message saying he was looking for somebody exceptional. I like the fact that they had really, really copious amounts of sex. Well, a couple of listeners thought that was unlikely.

Can I just say hello to Ellie as well, because you sent a lovely email. And Jane recommends things, I recommend things. We read different stuff, don't we? We have slightly different tastes. And I would say, actually, you're much more drawn to stories told by women about women's lives. And sometimes I want to get away from that, actually, in my reading. So never feel that you're making the other one feel uncomfortable by saying I like that one, I don't like that one because honestly we don't mind that at all.

I do like to go on holiday from women sometimes and read a book by a beefy bloke. So I do read a lot of pulsating holiday airport thrillers by men. There's a new Robert Harris coming soon. That's always good.

Do you know what? I couldn't finish. Is he coming on? He's coming on. Caledonian Road by Andrew O'Hagan. You couldn't finish? I couldn't finish it. I picked it up in a bookshop

and I could barely lift it, so I didn't go there. Yeah, but I thought it was going to be, I thought it was going to be so engrossing and also because it's set around North London and there's that thing, that weird thing that if it's a road you recognise, it's still exciting, isn't it? You know, when you see your street or somewhere near your street on the TV, it's just like, wow.

On the TV? Yeah, on the TV. What's the TV? TV. But I realised about halfway through that I was only reading it to recognise roads. Because you recognised it, OK. I thought, well, I might as well just look at Google Maps. Lots of other people have enjoyed it, though. So, hey-ho. Right, Jackie, in deepest, darkest Wales, nearest John Lewis, a four-hour, 150-mile round trip.

That is relevant because this is the passage in the book that really made Jackie laugh, and you and me both, Jackie. So here we go. In bed that evening as they're falling asleep, she says, and that's Manon I want you to get us some porn to watch liven things up a bit

righto Mark says but nothing weird conventional stuff for people like us nothing out there middle aged chubster porn says Mark

no I don't want to see chubby people doing it I can get that at home middle aged animal free porn got it says Mark is that a section

in a porn shop she asks. Probably, next to clergy. I wouldn't know where to get it, you see. Does John Lewis do porn? If it did, it'd be exactly the sort of porn we like, he says. Oh yes, John Lewis porn, that's exactly it. No surprising or unpleasant orifices.

Nice table lamps in the background, should the mind wander. Sex on a reasonably affordable sofa. That's what you want. But well-built sofa. Built to last. With no danger of collapse. I have built, and I built myself an IKEA chair. Where's this anecdote going?

I assembled an IKEA chair many years ago, and I never sit on it, because I think it might fall down. Can I just say hello to Madonna Perkins, just because that is just the best name ever. It's brilliant. Who listens to us in Brisbane. I think she's a friend of Julia. It's not a euphemism.

And we're very glad that you're on board with Off-Air 2. I mean, you've got a head start in life with a name like that. So we wish you and Julia the very, very best. Yep. So how lovely that so many people have enjoyed the book. Thank you so much for reading it. Thank you for listening to this. Thank you for the recommendations in the first place.

And the kind of USP of the book club is recommendations of books that not everybody will have known. They probably haven't sailed up the bestseller charts. They haven't done a recent press round, but they're ones that you would press into the hand of strangers, but also books that you would then want back after they've been read. Yeah, so my particular thanks to Hazel from that book club and the bookshop in Dulwich,

because without her, we wouldn't be here now and I wouldn't have found Susie Steiner and that's the beauty of all this so please do let us know what you'd like us to talk about next time round and we'll be doing I imagine a book club next in the autumn. I think so. The leaves will be coming down. Oh that's perfect time

isn't it? Yes and we can all start panicking about the festive season. Well I will. John Lewis Sofa which has now been ruined for everybody. Goodbye. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio.

The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.