Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Book Club - The Trouble with Goats and Sheep

Episode Date: November 22, 2024

Jane and Fi are back with their seventh book club - pour yourself a glass of wine (bonus points for cava) and find a comfy cosy corner. Plus, Joanna Cannon, the author of 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep', stops in for a chat. Thank you so much for your engagement and interaction. We hope you'll join us for the next one. Get your suggestions in at: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfi Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You know your big worry about going to musicals is that you just can't stand all the acting. I'm acting! Yes. Yes, that. I think you're a loss to the West End, I really do. This episode of Off Air with Jane and Fi is sponsored by John Lewis Money. Fi, is there anything you can't find at John Lewis? No.

As well as all the great bedding, kitchen kit, beauty from brands that we all know and love, you can pick up cosy cashmere, Christmas decorations and even essentials for your pet. How about a new collar for Nancy? Well, and some sparkly pieces to wear to all those festive get-togethers. Well, quite. They even do money too, Jane. They really do have it all. At John Lewis Money, in-house experts and trusted partners

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They also have fantastic entertainment, shows, facilities onboard. You wouldn't be short of things to do. Plan ahead to discover your dream Europe 2025 cruise. It's certainly one way to beat the winter blues. Experience more at sea with Norwegian Cruise Life. For more information call 0333 222 6513. Contact your travel agent or visit ncl.com Welcome to the Off Air Book Club. I hope you're nice and cosy, got somewhere lovely to sit, maybe a glass of wine. What would you drink at a book club? Well, it would depend on the time we're meeting.

Well, did you have a book club that you remember of? Yes. And? It was always an evening meeting and I would imagine that the bubbles flowed but it would have been Carver. Nice bit of Carver. A nice bit of Carver. I had some Carver on Saturday. It does go down a treat. It does doesn't it? I like it because sometimes it's a brassy drink isn't it? You know if you get one of those really really dry ones I feel quite invigorated by a carver. Anyway. We're here to talk about literature, not strong drink. So the book this week, this month, this time, is Joanna Cannon's The Trouble with Goats and Sheep, which came out how long ago?

It was published nearly 10 years ago, Jane. Right. And as when you hear from Joanna, you'll realize actually that even she doesn't remember everything about it. It's very interesting. I mean she created this world but obviously she's moved on and done all sorts of other things since so she talks about it with real affection but she doesn't recall every single minute detail does she? And it is a book of minute detail and that's what has really separated our podcast listeners isn't it? Because some people have really really really loved the detail and the fact that there's more detail than plot it's not a plot driven novel it is about

layering the detail of a long hot summer and a friendship and identities. I suppose there are fantastical elements aren't there? Yes. And that I think some people struggled a bit with that Jesus and the drain pipe and stuff and I get why some people struggled whilst also really enjoying the book and a few people have emailed to say I'm really sorry I didn't get it. Well I didn't really understand the ending and we do talk about that with Joanna as well. Shall we dive straight into some of the people who've't really understand the ending and we do talk about that with Joanna as well.

Shall we dive straight into some of the people who've really, really loved the book? So this one comes from Sue in Chalfont St. Peter and I love the sign-off. I mean it's factually correct obviously. You're Sue and you live in Chalfont St. Peter. Putting the two together I feel is rather joyous. Dear podcast charms another triumph of a book club choice. I absolutely loved it. It's so well observed every tiny 70s detail adds to the oppressive atmosphere of that extremely hot summer which I

remember very well. The neighbors in the avenue are fully formed and you can visualize each person as if watching a TV drama. I listened to it on audible Paula Wilcox's voice is just perfect and I found similarities with another excellent book, The List of Suspicious Things by Jenny Godfrey, adults behaviour told through the eyes of two children who are trying to solve a mystery and also in the unbelonging character of Walter Bishop there's a hint of Boo Radley, the persecuted and misunderstood man, in To Kill a a mockingbird. Sue, it's delightful that you've picked out those three things actually because we do talk

with Joanna about exactly that, wanting to write about a person who is judged and judged really harshly through the eyes of prejudice, who maybe turns out to not be the horrible monster that everybody imagines them to be and she will tell us actually who the character of Walter Bishop was inspired by. Did you listen or did you read this one? I read this although I totally understand the point there because I think Paula Wilcox would be, she's an actress, a most famous, she'll probably hate me for this, she was in Robin's Nest, do you remember? I remember little bits of Robin's Nest. I know we often read, but you are a little bit younger than

me and maybe you just don't remember, Paula Wilcox and Richard O'Sullivan and it was a, I mean it wouldn't, it wouldn't get past the census now, a slightly politically incorrect sitcom about Richard O'Sullivan living with two young women in a flat share. Right. I'm pretty sure. Oh gosh, I might go back and watch that to just remind myself how far we've moved on. I suspect quite sensibly ITV don't make it available. Right.

It was, what was it? And it was also, I think that might have been a spinoff to a pro, oh I know, Man About the House was the original sitcom. Anyway, look, people who are of my vintage and can recall the long hot summer of 1976 will also remember Richard O'Sullivan who was rather a good-looking chap very much in his day. And I think it is it's the detail of suburban life and I'm sure I've said this before but it did remind me of the street in Waterloo in Liverpool where I lived in the 1970s and in fact by 76 we'd moved to our other house but the house that we lived

in in Waterloo it was in a street that was full of characters that so came to life for me again reading this book and I would love to recreate that street and actually find out what was going on behind some of those net curtains because it was very much a street that had net curtains in it. And there were people, weren't there, in our childhood and adolescence that we we would like to see again now and just, you know, ask them what were they thinking? What were they up to? The two old ladies who shared a house two doors away from us, were they really sisters as we were led to believe or were they in fact life partners and were able to admit it back in the 1970s? I think about all this sort of stuff now. I think one of the joyful

things about this book as well is because it's placed in the 1970s and obviously it's way before all of our technology took over our lives, is the it takes you back to a time that you and I can remember but our kids won't have the advantage of having in their memory bank where you had to look out of your window in order to be intrigued by something so although I found the descriptions of the long hot summer and the boredom absolutely brilliant I think future generations won't quite understand what that meant it meant that you did have to look at curtains twitching that you were brilliant, I think future generations won't quite understand what that meant. It meant that you did have to look at curtains twitching, that you were fascinated by the cracks in

the pavement, that everything around you and all the people around you, they had to become your entertainment, which is exactly what happens for Grace and Tilly, isn't it? Every tiny little detail becomes the fabric of their day. And it's also just about that popping in thing of a neighborhood, which I think is so much rarer now. And I might be judging other communities too harshly, but certainly in my adult life, I have not had the same experience, and this is probably because more women are out at work and I've been out at work myself of the kind of community where people pop into each other's houses all of the time. There are close neighbors of mine and we are really good friends and we've all lived in the street for 15 years

but I've rarely been inside their houses. Who do you go and borrow a cup of sugar from then? Well you don't do you? You go to the shop? Because that's the whole point of having children. Send them out for the sugar themselves. But it's a rather wonderful time of domesticity that Joanna has captured isn't it? Because it's both those things, it's gossipy adults and mysterious children. The point you make about looking to the outside world for your entertainment because by god some of those days could drag in the 1970s, particularly at the weekend. You forget the shops

were not open, there was nowhere to go. But all of these lovely descriptions of what Grace and Tilly get up to and where they have to find their fun I think are so spot on. Let's do a couple more of the good ones because there are definitely criticisms as well. All valid here. This one comes in from Fiona who loved the book and she says, The point that I became totally committed was the description of Brian's hair that got to a certain point and then gave up growing. Mine too, Brian. It's lovely things like that. I could see the knitted green and pink tea cosy. I'm pretty sure everyone had one in the 1970s. I was eight in 1976 and I can

remember the heat wave, the bound on watering, the subsequent scorched gardens highlighting the naughty neighbors who made up fantastical stories about reusing the bath water and washing up water. The adult apathy and fractiousness was so well depicted in the book, along with the fashion and the K's catalogue. 42 easy payments of 25p a week for the mules. I completely agree with you about all of those things. Do you know what? We were a little bit too young for the K's catalogue,

but it was the next catalogue that really just... We could spend hours choosing outfits that we would never buy couldn't afford to. Did you remember that I mean the K's catalog was the same it was so big. Oh the K's catalog well I definitely remember that we got that K's catalog and I can't have been the only young woman who formed an opinion of the male of the species based on the Y front models in the K's catalog I thought, oh, it was about the only way you could see. Has life been disappointing to ever since?

It's one way to observe the male form in the 1970s. It was the only way to observe the male form. It was the only way. So thank you for all of these. Yeah, no, let me just find, I love the podcast, says Julia. I live in Sydney, but hail from England and I don't fall asleep listening to you. I stay all podcast says Julia. I live in Sydney but hail from England and I don't fall asleep listening to you. I stay all the way through. Good. I'm so glad you picked the trouble with goats and sheep. I was born in 1966 so I was 10, the same age as Grace

in that summer of 1976. That summer our family had just returned from living in Germany. My dad was in the RAF. I'd completed my first term at boarding school and returned to a new home where I had yet to make friends. I spent the hot, hot, hot days with our little Labrador puppy, emulating Nadia Comanec in the garden, mixed results but nailed the salute and avoiding mom's newfound enthusiasm for cottage cheese Danish sandwiches.

I loved that summer. My memories of it are really strong and Joanna Cannon captures what it felt like to be 10 in 1976. Thank God for Book Club as I don't think I'd have found this tremendous read otherwise. Well, that's brilliant Julia. That's the whole point of the club is to introduce people to a writer who actually has written lots of other stuff as well, all well worth exploring. So glad you enjoyed it and glad it propelled you back to your adolescence and childhood really. But the Danish sandwich, is that an open sandwich? So it's a cop-out really, it's only one slice of bread isn't it?

It's not a proper sandwich. No it's not actually a sandwich. Right, a quick run through then of some of the other comments from all of you lovely people. Rachel in Somerset says, I love the evocation of the 70s and that extraordinary summer. I was 12 and it brought it all back perfectly. Not only was the cultural detail spot on down to the exact brands of biscuit likely to be offered with a cup of tea but also what people were like including the excruciating and very funny trying not to be racist racism. Bravo Joanna Cannon. Oh yeah that excruciating meeting with the

Kapoor's, wasn't it? The new neighbours were oh yeah. A couple of other details that have caught the attention of Janine who's in Germany. She wanted to point out these wonderful descriptions, it's something that we talk about with Joanna too. Sweetness hung in the air and wrapped itself around us like a bandage. Tilly stared at me and I watched the idea find her face and the stillness was an opiate to him cushioning his mind and unthreading his thoughts. And I noticed this one too and it's just such a fantastic description Janine isn't it? Fraudulent parsley. It doesn't deliver at all. It's just itchy and scratchy. Nothing to give. And Sue in Leamington Spa, thank you for your congratulatory email as well.

So there are people who aren't as keen. Yeah, there are. This is from Chris. He says, I've listened to you for years. I want you to know you've got a... How about this V? We've got a considerable fan base among gay men of a certain age. Good, we'll take gay men of any age. I'm a first-time emailer and have read the last few book club choices. I love the idea of it and you've had some excellent ones so far. This book I thought had some lovely qualities but was also exasperating, which is why I think I feel compelled to write. It was a confounding read for me. The stultifying

atmosphere of 70s suburbia was rendered brilliantly and there was a real poetry to some of the descriptions, especially of the characters inner worlds. However, I didn't feel the plot matched the strength of the characters and essentially the whole story was pretty clear from the start. A claustrophobic community that had formed a mob against an innocent eccentric, Walter, with disastrous consequences. There was a final reveal of sorts but also more mystery as Tilly's surprise recovery was completely unexplained. Had she come back as a ghost I wondered, and other people have asked that as well, haven't they? The arrival of a British-Asian family did offer some entertaining moments but they fell out of the book about three

quarters of the way through and never reappeared and I thought that was a pity. They, Walter and another character called Eric represented the better side of human nature but it wasn't really developed. Instead the book seemed to conclude that suburbia is all secrets and darkness. I do think this book will stay with me but for a mixture of good and bad reasons. That's Chris's assessment and thank you Chris. Similarly from JB, this is the first of the Book Club books I haven't really enjoyed it has made me unnecessarily irritable. I have no idea what happened.

One minute Tilly is dying and then they're all fine or is Grace making it up? Why is Walter all chipper suddenly? What happened to Margaret Creasy and why is she back? And did she spill any beans and what beans were they and what was all the fuss about the house fire and the camera and lots of secrets? So this is exactly what we tackle with Joanna in our interview and I thought her answer was an interesting one actually. I did have to go back and read the ending twice to make sure that I hadn't missed something, as I quite often do. Yeah, I also miss things.

I mean, I often have to turn to you and other of my helpers to explain the plots of television series, for example, and also books. But sometimes, I guess, writers, they demand something of the reader, don't they? And sometimes they just want an ambivalent ending. They want the reader to do a bit more work and to think, well, I don't know. Was she a ghost? I don't know. I mean, I think I just want to mention Sue in Lemington Spa. Joanna Cannon's book was an interesting and complex weaving of the grown-up stories

with the innocence of childhood. And our listener in Chalfont St. Which mentioned that book by is it Jenny Godley? The list of suspicious things. That book did come to me after I read this because I'd read that book. And it's through the eyes of a child again. And it's about the hunt for the so-called Yorkshire Ripper and it's that's a fantastic read if you if you're someone who enjoys books about the 1980s in particular anyway Back to Sue who says we got married the Christmas before that

That summer and that summer we couldn't afford a holiday and so spent a holiday at home in the heat Trying to do house jobs that we couldn't afford either I feel as though I can remember the time so clearly constantly worrying about having no water and the threat of standpipes. I loved also the many references to the food at the time. It was really, really well researched. August bank holiday that year was when the rains finally came and we were so fed up because we'd gone to Devon for the weekend to at least see the sea. We'd only been there a day and the rain turned to flooding we had to come home. That's a very British experience. I'll never forget the summer of 1976 so thank you Joanna and to both of you for this book club choice. Young Eve is looking totally baffled at the

mention of standpipes. She has no, no, no knowledge at all of the long hot summer and the suffering of all of us here in Blighty during 1976. Do you think any of our subsequent summers recently have been as hot as 76? I think they've been hotter but not as long. Yeah, I think that's right. So I was 12 and I do remember it being stifling but in fairness to the the Mersey Riviera, you've always got a sea breeze very much blowing in from the Irish. Yes it was it was it must have been hotter down your way.

It was earth cracking in the Hampshire. Anne is in County Durham. I found the book frustrating at first trying to keep track of the characters and who was speaking or being spoken about despite the illustration at the front of the book but I did manage to settle into it about a quarter of the way through. Some of the editions do have a map in the front and we agree that that proved to be very useful. I'm not sure that I would have been able to follow it quite so well if I hadn't had the map. It was good to be able to refer to it. And Evelyn never apologised for disagreeing. Evelyn says, I'm sorry to be the voice of negativity, but I found the style of writing

contrived and irritating. Some sentences so mannered that I wrote them down to see what others thought. I.e. I found concern in Mrs Morton's eyes and photocopied it. Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because so many people have really loved the metaphors, analogies and descriptions in the book and the detail and I confess that I'm one of those. I really, it kept me going reading them because I couldn't wait to get to the next one but it's not for everybody. No it's not and it can seem affected as though you're, you know how, you know your big worry about going to musicals is that you just can't stand all the acting. not and it can seem affected as though you're, you know how, you know your big worry about going to musicals is that you just can't stand all the acting.

I'm acting! Yes, sometimes you see that on the page or some people do and other people just love, love the poetry of it. Oh god, totally. I mean, you know, the West End is full of musicals, Jane, I'm absolutely in a minority there. I do apologise. Sorry if you were drifting off because that was quite funny. I think you're a loss to the West End. I really do. called Feel Better About Money. It's a safe place to talk positively about money and personal finance. Each week we will tackle a specific financial topic from managing debt, saving for a pension, buying a house or deciding whether to insure your cat or dog or goldfish. Feel Better About Money is sponsored by Lloyds Readymade Investments.

The flu remains a serious disease. Last season over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported investments. cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. Is it time to bring in Joanna herself? It so is. So we began our conversation with Joanna by talking about this gap between when she wrote the book and now, when we're all reading it, and for those people who read it before they probably can't remember it, so if you wrote it before can you remember it either? Sometimes people will quote my book to me and I think, did I write that? I don't remember writing that. I think you've got so many different characters and you got through, I've just finished writing book four now. So there are lots and there are lots of characters in my books. So I don't always remember tiny little

details, but it's amazing how people pick up on different things. And they will quote stuff back to me that I'd forgotten I'd written. And I think, oh yeah, I remember actually writing that. So I don't remember everything. And I try very hard not to read it again, because I will read something and think I wish I'd done that or I wish I'd said that or I wish I'd taken that comma out. It's annoying. So I try not to reread my own books. There are lots of other wonderful books to read without rereading my own, I think. Did you grow up in a street or an environment like the one you describe in this novel? I did, I did, because people say to me what research did you have to do? I didn't do any

because I was there. I was a little bit younger than Grace and Tilly, but my grandma and grandma especially lived on an estate on a kind of a little avenue. And we live five minutes away. And I can remember it being incredibly hot. And I remember thinking, this is what summer is gonna always be like. This is summer, which clearly it's not. And I remember the people said, you can fry an egg on the pavement, excuse me,

or the tarmac was cracking and the lawns were cracking and everything was falling to pieces and everyone was getting more and more agitated and restless and wondering if it was ever going to end. So I drew on those memories because I think as a child as well you tend to, you remember sensory stuff perhaps more than an adult. So as a child I remember the smells and the sounds and the taste of that really hot summer. So it was good for me because I could just kind of delve back into the drawers in my head and have a little think about how it felt to live through the summer of 76. One of the real joys of the book Joanna is that friendship between Grace and Tilly and I wondered actually on reading it whether or not you'd had a friend who also like Tilly had been a bit unwell as a child.

I didn't. I didn't have a friend. Somebody asked me at an event when you were little, did you have a friend like Tilly? And I remember saying it moved me a little bit. I thought, no, I didn't. I was a very lonely child. I didn't really have many friends. Most of my friends lived in the pages of books, and I spent all of my time in the local library. And I was on those kids at the edge of the playground that kind of wanted to join in, but didn't quite know how. I was that kid. So I didn't have a Tilly in my life. And friendship, when I look at the books I've written, friendship features quite heavily in every novel I've written. And I don't think things are written by accident.

And I think because I grew up kind of as a bit of a loner, that gap in my life, that kind of little hole in my head of all the memories of not having a real good friend. That reflects in my writing because it's something that comes through again and again. Was there something about your childhood that led you to come up with the character of Walter? Walter Bishop who is the oddity, he's the loner, he's essentially scapegoated, isn't he, in this book? Yeah. And I remember from my own adolescence and certainly early childhood in a suburban environment

very similar to the one you describe here, there were people like that and there probably still are, aren't there actually, if we're honest? In fact, I know there are. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think there are more people like Walter Bishop now than there were then, because now all of those safety nets in the community and the communities themselves have kind of disintegrated. And all those spaces within a community like libraries and like places people can go just

to be with other people. They are slowly disappearing and isolation and loneliness I think is a disease that we are living through and of course it's a very high risk factor for mental illness which is obviously an increase in mental illness along with a lot of other reasons. So there were Walter Bishops in my childhood and I'm sure everybody listening there will be somebody in their town or their village or their street who reminds them a little of Walter Bishop because they're out there and I think you have to remember when you're writing you are writing someone's reality. It might be your fiction but it's someone's real life and the thing that really made me create Walter Bishop out of nowhere was the time I was writing it, there was a chap called Chris Jefferies, who was a landlord in Bristol. I don't know if you guys remember him. Oh, I do. Yeah. For anybody who doesn't, he was taken for questioning of the murder of Joe Yates, who lived in one of his flats, a young woman who was found dead.

And they were investigating, and they decided to arrest Chris Jefferies. And his face was on every paper in the country front page. And he was an unusual looking gentleman. He had long hair. He had purple streaks in his hair at some point, very thick glasses. I remember looking at his picture and thinking, oh yeah, he did it. He looks just the type. Of course, he didn't do it. The man who did do it was an

upstanding normal member of the community. Chris Jeffries was completely innocent. I was so annoyed with myself that I'd fallen into that trap of judging someone just because they're a loner, just because they're a tiny bit different. They keep themselves to themselves, as the newspapers like to say, which is a kiss of death. Yeah, or they live with their mom. Yeah, yeah.

Things that don't follow the norm, that aren't normal. Although I remember a patient in psychology once saying to me, yeah, things that don't follow the norm, that aren't normal. Although I remember a patient in psychiatry once saying to me, Joe, normal is just a cycle on a washing machine. And I've never forgotten that, and I thought, you're the patient and I'm the doctor and you're telling me something that's so true. And it's true. And I felt so bad for how I had judged Chris Jefferies and how the nation had judged Chris Jefferies. And I thought, how does it feel to be a goat in a world full of sheep? Like we all like to think that we're different. And when you ask an audience at an event,

are you a goat or a sheep? Everybody says, oh, I'm a goat, I'm different. But really being a goat in a world full of sheep is a really hard thing to do. It's a tough life. You are not noticed unless something goes wrong. You're not acknowledged unless they want to blame you for something. And that's how Walter Bishop came to be. It was the kind of seed of Chris Jeffries and all of that judgment that was

going on that that made me want to write about how it actually feels to be that goat. We're going to talk if it's okay with spoilers all the way through, because we're assuming that everybody has read the book as part of the book club, Joanna. So don't feel bad about giving away endings and all that kind of stuff. But let's just stick with what you said there about the title, The Trouble with Goats and Sheep, because as the reader,

you don't get to that line as a proper mention until page 116. And you know, that's quite a long way through the book. So I wonder just as the writer, did you have the title first or did that just kind of come to you as being the title of the book? And this is all to do with the girls' search for God as well, isn't it? They're looking for something in the world that is certain and that makes sense of everything. And the trouble with goats and sheep is mentioned in a sermon, isn't it? It is, it is. And I didn't have a title because bear in mind, I wrote this book while I was

working as a doctor. And if I had a lunch break, I would go to my car in my lunch break and sit and write because it was my way of coping with the stress of the job. So I'd have a 20-minute break with my League of Friends sandwich and just sit and write. So I didn't think anyone would ever read this book. So the last thing on my mind was the title. Obviously, now I'm writing books and people are waiting for them. Titles are a very big deal.

But sitting in my car, I wasn't really that kind of mindful of it. But I noticed as I was writing that I was bringing in more and more religious symbols and kind of nods to religion. And, you know, some of the names of the characters and the fact that Grace and Tilly, as you say, are going to try to find God, because they believe that if they prove God exists, then it means something to them, and it means something about Mrs. Crease's disappearance. And I just wrote that part of the sermon on page 116,

I think you said it was. And I wrote it, and I thought, oh, there it is. That's the title. And it just kind of came out to me, and it just felt right. And I think with titles, if anybody out there writes, you know when you get the title that's right, that's the right fit. It's not a compromise. It's like, yes, that's it. Yeah, it absolutely is. Your detail has been commented on in your prose and particularly your metaphors and analogies by so many people who've read your books.

I will just, if it's alright by you, embarrass you and fangirl you by reading some of the ones that I've absolutely loved. So this is right towards the end of the book and you're talking about the girl's attitude to the Lord and of course the religious ones, the ones that suggest you're suffering for a very good reason, the ones that tell you the Lord is supervising your misery and swirling gold letters because when God speaks he appears only to speak in decorated font. Such a fantastic, fantastic observation. There's another one that I absolutely loved which was about grief only ever appearing in beige because when I can't remember who it is in the book actually when somebody is grieving they're

wearing a beige cardigan and I think you're spot on with that too. There are so many others that go through them. Do they come to you as you're writing or do you write those down separately and then find the right place to insert them? No they come to me as I're writing or do you write those down separately and then find the right place to insert them? No, they come to me as I'm writing because I write, I do what everyone tells you not to do, which is like edit as I go along. Most authors write a quick first draft and then go back and edit and I just sit agonising for hours until I can move on to the next bit. And we both get to the same place eventually, but it's just the way that I do things.

And I think these little observations come to me as I'm writing, because I'm going through it so many times that eventually something will come to me. And I love to try and say as much as possible in as few words as possible. It's one of my challenges that I give myself. And I think that little challenges that I give myself. And I think that little kid that I talked about when I was a child and I kind of stood

at the edge of the playground, not joining in, I think that benefited me because it made me an observer and it made me notice tiny details because I wasn't talking, I wasn't playing, I was kind of watching. It sounds quite freaky actually. It sounds like I was a really weird child, but just kind of watching people and watching behaviours. And I think if you do that when you're a child,

it's a habit that kind of carries through into adulthood. And when I was a doctor, those tiny details were the things that used to break me when I saw things with patients and families and people suffering and I would remember these small details that I've observed and it burnt me out. But when it comes to writing, they're a strength because they're the thing that will kind of convey the point to the reader, that small observation that you hope the reader would notice as well. So I often think the thing that almost breaks you is the thing that saves you hope the reader would notice as well. So I often think the thing that that almost breaks you is the thing that saves you in the

end and it was my knack of observation I think and my childhood spent at the edge of a playground that helped me find the words to say these things. Well never ignore the child at the edge because they will become a doctor and a novelist. That's quite extraordinary. Lots of listeners are interested, Joanna, in the period detail and I loved it because I could completely remember the long hot summer of 1976. Lots of food references, which rang true for me. Mandarin segments, the food references were great, says this listener. I really love this book. I listened to the audiobook which is really well read by Paula Wilcox Yes, I can't can imagine that she'd be absolutely perfect for it. Um, it wasn't just the food references though that were good

Whimsies those little Ornamental animals, is that right? I'd completely forgotten about whimsies. I had loads of them Me too. I had a whole shelf full and the Bush baby, which is one that I mentioned in the book. That was my most precious Whimsys. They come in little cardboard boxes, didn't they? And you collected them. And I had a whole shelf behind my bed full of Whimsys. Can you still get them? Can we try and bring Whimsys back? Probably for ridiculous amounts of money on eBay. I would imagine you can still get them, but I don't think they manufacture them anymore. The food references, because I was writing

in my lunch break and I was hungry. So you can imagine that putting Angel Delight and kind of Mandarin segments and things like that in the book was because I was actually quite hungry. Yeah, you have shamed all those of us who think we haven't got time to write that you were able to knock this out in your lunch break as a doctor. I know, I know. I don't know how I... Come on everybody, Joanna could do it. I desperately needed something to take me away from the ward. So Grace and Tilly were my kind

of saviours really in the end. But one thing I have to say about food though, if anybody's writing a book, make sure if you put food in it, that you put food in it that you actually like to eat. Because when you do events or go anywhere, people will present you with the food that was in your book. So I spent two years eating butterscotch angel delight. And I don't even like angel delight. Oh, you didn't like it? Oh, don't be ridiculous. Butterscotch angel delight was absolutely glorious. As a kid I did. As an adult I'm thinking maybe this is not the best thing to be eating three nights a week.

Yeah, you've probably got a point there, Joanna. Did you fully know the ending when you set out at the beginning of the book? I did. I always know the ends of my book. I know the last line. And it's like, I know where it starts. I know what I'm trying to say. And I know how it finishes. But the rest of it is a mystery to me. So it's like kind of, I'm going to drive to Glasgow. I don't know how I'm going to get there, but I'm going to end up in Glasgow. And sometimes I'd wake up and I found I was in Torquay and I had to have a rethink but I tried very hard to kind of aim for Glasgow so I got my last line. I knew what was going to happen in the final scene and I just had to work towards that. Yeah it's such a clever conceit because actually you know

the compelling character is absent for most of the book, isn't she? Which is just brilliant because it does something to you as the reader where it actually just keeps you in a really enhanced form of suspense all of the way through. I wonder whether you almost happened on that accidentally or whether you really, really knew that that's what you were doing for the reader? I knew that Mrs Creasy wasn't going to appear throughout 99.9% of the book and I think that's Daphne's influence because Rebecca is my favourite book of all time and of course you never see the first Missing Dammers, you never see her at all. So I think that influenced me subconsciously. And I do think having a character kind of on the periphery that you can't see and you don't know

is a good technique to keep a reader interested in the story because they're desperate to know about this missing character. Just to bring in some more questions from readers, did you keep a detailed diary of the 1970s or did you brainstorm with your friends Joanna? I just sat and tried to think what I remember of the 70s, like what I would watch, what I would eat, how I would feel. I can remember circling things in the case catalogue and leaving it in strategic positions around the house because I wanted people to know that's what I wanted for Christmas. Little details like that. And then I had to go and research things because there will always be somebody reviewing a book usually on Amazon that says something like, oh, actually, I think you'll find all you're being served was on a Thursday night, not a Wednesday night. So I had to make sure that I got the accuracy in there. But really it was just sitting and I think sometimes music helps. I had a playlist of 1970s

music, which we played at my launch party, strangely enough. And I would listen to that and music, I think, is a very good way of remembering stuff because it kind of triggers memories in your brain. Anonymous asks how did you keep track of who lived where? Well there is there's a map isn't there at the beginning certainly of the paperback edition I had and you presumably had that taped to the wall or something did you? I had it on the back of an envelope I wrote down a little map of the Caldyssock on the back of an envelope because I started getting more confused about who could see whose house from where. But that was the only note that I made. You know, sometimes you'll see authors with the walls full of post-it notes and all

colour coordinated and I don't do that. I just write things on the back of an envelope. I think if you're writing kind of thrillers or police procedures, things like that, you need that kind of planning or else you might write yourself into a corner. But luckily I didn't have to do that. So I just had this little map, which eventually became a map, much better drawn in the paperback. A couple of our listeners have said that they needed to reread the ending quite a few times and almost draw a diagram of what had happened there. And it is, for a very, very delicious slow burn of a book, it is quite a quick ending actually isn't it, the reveal.

And I don't suppose for one minute that you want that to go on for kind of six chapters or whatever. But would you, did you want to leave it a little bit kind of hard to understand or even a little bit quick of hard to understand or even a little bit quick as a resolution? I did. I like I don't like skibidoo endings and it's all explained to you on the final page. I get really cross about that. I like books that make you think. I like books that include your interpretation of things. So I wanted to make it, I think one newspaper described it as quasi-religious ending to the book, but I wanted people to leave thinking about what has

happened rather than just knowing. And I know a lot of people don't like that and a lot of people say I would rather have a more solid ending to something. But I think if you've taken from the book what I intended, then you would appreciate what happened at the end. And I had my agent both ordered an email to me from some kind of ex-pats reading group in Dubai or somewhere and they'd read Goats and Sheep and this woman sent this huge long email about her interpretation of the book and she said in the final scene of course there are 12 people standing on the avenue which are clearly the 12 disciples but which one is Judas and I thought oh my god I didn't even think of that this is really good I'm going to claim that as my own. So people will see into things what they want. And I love that. I love that different people see different things, different people come

to different conclusions. You know, was Tilly alive at the end of it? Or was she gone? So I just took from it, and I don't know what Jane took from it. I took from it that Dorothy had played a bigger role in things than I'd imagined all the way through the book. Sheila didn't want her secrets to be exposed. Margaret had had quite a kind of conversion in her own life. Walter was wrong to be judged and I just, do you know what, I'm so, I just didn't want to think that Tilly was anything other than going to be okay. Well, if you want her to be okay, she's okay. Honestly, this was the thing because people said to me, did Tilly die? Because, you know, at the end, Grace is the one who says,

God is everywhere. Yeah. You know, and Tilly was ill and we never actually sort of get better. And nobody speaks to her other than Grace in the final couple of scenes. So there is that kind of ambiguity if you like. So is Grace imagining her there? Well, yeah, maybe. Or maybe not. Maybe she's alive and well and she's still absolutely fine and led a long and very happy life. It depends how you want to see it, because I think every book includes you as the reader and how you interpret things. There's no right or wrong. And once I let this story go and send it out into the world, then people can interpret it any way they want.

My interpretation isn't necessarily more important than yours or anyone listening. It's how you feel about the book and what you took from it. Yeah. That's the most important thing to me, whether that's the same as my intention or not. There is also something about that time, but actually it's true of now as well, where people lead small and apparently respectable lives, but with inner lives that are full of turmoil and that's a constant isn't it? I mean that is not going to change. It's brilliant for novelists obviously because... But what do you say to people who might be tempted to

point to this book of yours and say it's small, it's domestic, a man wouldn't write it? What do you say to that? Oh gosh, what would I say to that? I'd say well, I think the small and domestic are the most interesting stories of all. I'm not interested in Kings and Queens and Kim Kardashian as fascinating as she is. I'm interested in your next door's cousin's milkman or the woman who lives two doors down or the woman who's just moved here, or, you know, people, ordinary people. I think I grew up on a diet of Alan Bennett. And I remember when I was little,

I used to watch Talking Heads on the BBC. And I can remember being absolutely fascinated by these characters, these ordinary characters with ordinary voices that had extraordinary stories to tell. And I think if men want to write, and men do write very kind of about small and domesticated things, and they write them very well, but kind of your traditional view is that men are writing about kind of action packed, plot driven, fast cars and guns and shouting. If they want to write that, that's wonderful.

And there's an audience out there, but I think there's equally an audience out there for quieter stories because it's the ordinary people who have the most extraordinary stories. I've found the beige excerpt, yes, and I don't want to leave people hanging so I'm going to read it if that's okay. Sheila and May did make it to the doorstep three days after the accident, fue fueled by curiosity and half a bottle of sherry. But even they disappeared when they realized that widowhood wore a beige cardigan and said very little. It's just so beautiful. And the other one was just something about Grace and Tilly. And this is Grace in the first person. When I turned around, Tilly was smiling so much I was worried

that someone might hear. Which I think is just beautiful as well. Absolutely beautiful. You're making me feel so good about myself. Well you should. It's part of the service. It's an absolutely amazing book and who knew that the folding of tea towels would take on so much significance as well. That's a gorgeous detail. It's a gorgeous detail. It's a little detail to go into, small details that matter. Really, really wonderful details. Well, it's been a really, really successful choice for our book club, Joanna, so thank you very much indeed for talking to us. We're really delighted that so many other people have enjoyed

The Trouble with Goats and Sheep sheep for many people second time round too. Yeah. And what's the next one going to be about? Well, the next one is strange and coincidental that you read that quote out about widowhood wearing beige. The next one is all about loss and grief and what it means to lose someone in a society that expects you to move on. Oh, that sounds very good. Yes, but there's humour in there because there's always humour in my books. It's not all kind of death and misery, but it is something I noticed when I was working as a doctor.

We're not very good with dealing with death, even as medics, we're not very good. So that was a little seed that planted in my head and that is what I've written next. So you can expect that not next year, but earlier the year after. Lovely, we'll come in and talk to us about that when that's out. I will, and thank you so much for inviting me and everyone out there who read Goats and Sheep

either for the first time or the second time, thank you so much. It genuinely means the world and I will never get over the fact that people are reading a book that I sang and wrote in a car park. Joanna Cannon, The Trouble with Goats and Sheep has been our latest book club choice. Thank you very much indeed to all the people who recommended it. Thank you to everybody who read it. We welcome criticisms, we welcome praise, that's the whole point of the book club. And you know just for the people who haven't

been able to keep up with the plot, other books have really proved to be beyond us, haven't they? We just about managed with this one. Don't get me started on that French one. Fresh water for flowers. Oh God, you've triggered me. No, I really like that. Do you know what? That has illuminated me so much about the French attitude to men reading that book, because I'd never read a work of fiction by a French writer and I really understand better

some of the horrendous things that are now happening, or have happened, in France that we're now learning about. So I'm just always grateful to writers. You've made me really think, maybe reading that again in the light of the terrible case of Giselle Pelico would be instructive. That case is still not over, I think it's due to end some point before the end of the year. Anyway, gloomy stuff. Thank you to everybody who's emailed. We are really, really grateful. And honestly, no one needs to apologize. If they don't like it, if you don't like the book, you don't like the book. I know. And it's always good to hear from people who don't like it because it kind of jogs you as well, doesn't it? But Joanna, some of her other work, she wrote a memoir about her life as a doctor as well,

which I gather is well, well worth looking at. So and then there's also a book, A Tidy Ending, which a lot of people have enjoyed. So thank you to Joanna for being so enthusiastic about taking part as well. We are very, very grateful. And now it's over to you for being so enthusiastic about taking part as well. We are very very grateful and now it's over to you for our next pick. It certainly is so any suggestions the USP of the book club are books that you think deserve a bit of a reread or maybe they've gone slightly under the radar recently it's the book that you would press into the hand of a stranger and then you'd ask

for it back because you like it so much so something a little bit off the beaten track. I mean fair play to Joanna because that's actually not what this book was. It really propelled her into the bestseller charts but we definitely had so many readers who felt it was worth reading again. So bung us your fact or your fiction suggestions, fold your tea towels, otherwise trouble will come, and email Jane and Fee at times.radio. And we'll reconvene, well this has been at Fee's house, this edition of the book club, but the next one will be at mine, and who knows by then the seat cushions might have

been restuffed. So much to live for kids, so much to live for. Let the carver slip down a treat and we'll hear from you hopefully soon about your pick. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio, the jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

This episode of Off Air is brought to you by the new film Conclave, directed by Oscar-winning director Edward Berger and in cinemas on November 29th. I've been looking forward to this one for a while. It is based on the best-selling book by Robert Harris, which I absolutely loved, and it tells the story of one of the world's most secretive and ancient events selecting a new Pope. It follows Cardinal Lawrence played by Ray Fiennes who is tasked with running this covert process and he finds himself at the centre of a conspiracy and discovers a secret that could shake the very foundation of the church. And this is one you are going to want to see in the cinema. You're going to be on the edge of your seat with all its twists and turns

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