Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Boosting bosoms from the comfort of your armchair

Episode Date: September 2, 2025

The sheltered housing for the more commercially viable is under construction, and we expect it to open its doors to Jane and Fi soon… While they wait, they discuss Gremlins, more funeral songs, brine ideas, and blancmange. Plus, novelist and historian Mary Chamberlain discusses her book 'Fenwomen', a fascinating insight into 20th-century rural life, 50 years on from its first publication. You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_ukiIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I mean, it can't just be that some families have a kind of mating season. That's revolting. What? Oh, don't go round to the Dawson's. They're mating. She's on heat. It's a... A non-alcoholic beer of an evening.

Whoop, whoop. Sound the fun claxies. then I will be up in the night. It's just a fact, isn't it? Sometimes I find myself sitting on my sofa with my non-alcoholic beer and my nicotine replacement therapy lozange thinking, gosh, I haven't quite got over my 20s.

I'm just still doing it, but I've just taken out all of the elements of harm. But that's, yeah, yeah, that's one way of doing it, isn't it? No alcohol beer, I had one last night, actually. It has improved. Oh, it's wonderful. They used to be a very funny, after-taste, not so much these days. And they just need to be able to do the same thing with wine, don't they?

Because they've definitely not managed to master that yet. I think maybe when we are in the Rupert Murdoch sponsored... What are we calling it? The sheltered housing for the more commercially viable, then I will... The surprisingly commercially viable in later life. I'll put the alcohol back in the beer, and I couldn't have another fag. Could you have another fag? No.

Well, I've had that one. Honestly, I didn't enjoy it. So, no. Never been back. No. I do think the young people are foolish, though, because they definitely, they've got all the messaging.

They've got all of the information. And they're not choosing to avoid the nicotine. And I always wish I had. It's a very, very powerful thing. So, quite a lot of people have got thoughts about Thursday Murder Club. and shall we just run through it?

Have you seen it yet? No, I still haven't seen it and I'm not well, anyway, so I don't, and I think I've read it but it didn't really I can't remember. I think you'd remember if you had read it? Over to you. I've definitely,

I will have picked it up but I wonder whether it might have been one of those ones I abandoned halfway through. Oh dear, okay, that's terrible, isn't it? Can I just say the man's ragingly successful so he doesn't eat me? Richard Osmond, he'll be fine. He's not going to care.

So I'm not being just carpy and miserable. It's just not quite my thing. I wonder if he enjoyed the adaptation. I mean, he can't say anything, can he? There we go. Hello, ladies. This one comes in from somebody. Amy, I'm so glad you mentioned the Thursday Murder Club

because since watching it two days ago, I've been brimming with annoyance, brimming. And unfortunately for you, I know, have an outlet. I will say this. If there have been fewer shots of frolicing deer, saccharing close-ups and jokes about statins, there may have been more room for the actual story but apart from the fact they changed the storyline

and put future major character in jail that'll make the next ones at least more interesting No, you'll be alright Oh okay, you'll be totally alright All the wonderful wit surprise and genuine intrigue of the novels has been mushed out of it You just know you're in trouble when all of the plot points get turned into dialogue

Now that's a very good point isn't it? Yeah, yeah So you don't have to show anything, you're just telling us all the time. It was like screenwriting for dummies gone wrong, the filmic version of the Blamonge they used to serve my nana at her very, very different sheltered housing. Empty, just flubbery, sugary, strangely set. I don't think Blamondge is still with us, is it as a thing? I think you can still buy the dried form in packets at the supermarket shelved. Is Angel Delight, strictly speaking, Blamge? I think it's more of an aerated pudding, actually, Eve. But I'm pretty sure I've seen it

next door to the Blemagne. Oh, okay, gosh, I didn't even know you could still get it. Yeah. The downtonification, the downtonification, the downtonification. Yeah, we know what you mean. The downtonification. Thank you. The fact that they're all incredibly stylish. God, there's another one of those films coming out, isn't there?

Squillionaires and the bizarrely pantomimey 2D performances make it feel like an infomercial and really such a far cry from the clever charm of the books. Just why, Netflix, why? Anyway, says Amy, I've got to run. roast chicken to get in the oven. P.S., I thought this might tickle you. I saw an interview with the Thursday Murder Club director, Chris Columbus, and Richard

Osmond. Chris Columbus was deriding the new Harry Potter remake for being unoriginal. He said, he did the first two, didn't he? He said two things, I don't like franchises and why bother doing things twice? This from the man that brought us Gremlin's and Gremlin's three. Thank you very much indeed for that, Amy. I made the mistake of, we won a raffle thing. to have any film of our choosing shown in a cinema in the centre of town

years ago when the kiddies were only about five and seven and we, you know, took up the offer and invited loads of friends from the neighbourhood and kids from school. What did you choose? I chose gremlins because I'd never seen it and I thought it was just quite a nice kid's film. Is it a nice kid's film?

No, it's not. Everybody ended up outside. Were they in tears? It was startling and wrong. Oh dear. Sorry. I just don't know that. I thought it was just about a cuddly monster. I thought it was too, but they all go terribly, terribly nasty and sinister. And it's the kind of thing that genuinely, I think, if you watch it too young, it might stay with you for life. And you'll certainly never be able to embrace your Furby.

Okay. So are you still paying therapist bills for some of the kiddies negatively impacted? Some of the parents we didn't know all that well, you know, because that school playground thing of, you know, connected. Your children might be very well connected, but you're not connected to those parents, particularly yourself. So yeah, I mean, it didn't. It didn't work, Jane, just didn't work. If you do want to get free to pay for the therapy your child had to have, she is, of course, easily contactable at Jane and Feet Times Store Radio. No, three years ago, my brother, who's a now retired Anglican priest, had the honour of conducting the funeral service for the much-loved actor and entertainer Bernard Cribbins.

This reminds me of... Your chatter about Gremlin's reminded me of Bernard Cribbins because he was in the Railway Children, which was absolutely my favourite film as a child. And he played the lovable chap at the station. He was the station master. Have I got this right?

I'm not very familiar with the Railway Children. It wasn't a favourite in our house at all. Well, it was just... It was the second film I ever saw at the cinema and I have loved it ever since. Anyway, as per Bernard's instructions at the end of the service, his friends and family left the church to the strains of his 1962 comedy hit, Hole in the Ground.

Andy, thank you very much. If you remember that, it's a comedy song a little bit like, back to my cheery cockney theme about a man whose job is to dig holes in the ground. And that's what the late great Bernard Crippins chose at his final departure. We had another one about funeral songs, which comes in from Judith, in brackets, from the lakes. I was just having a bit of a pod binge in order to catch up as it's taken me a while to recover from the excitement of seeing you and your marvellous guest, Judy, at Fringe by the Sea. Well done, Judith from the lakes.

Judith obviously made a huge effort to get across the country in order to see us at North Berwick. Judith goes on to say, I know if he likes a bullet point, so here goes. my husband is a relatively recently retired rural funeral director. God, don't say that sentence when you're drunk. He's the last in the line running the family business, which was established in 1865. I can't vouch for the type of planning which was carried out in the distant past, but I can say that 95% of customers in the last 50 years

had made no plans or arrangements for their funeral prior to their demise. 95%, Jane. That is remarkable, isn't it? And a bit, when you think about it, are people still so reluctant to acknowledge that this awaits us all? I can't believe this. Or is it just that people think,

well, I won't make plans because I won't be there? I kind of don't blame them if that's their approach. But you do have to bear in mind that people left behind who will have to organise it anyway. Yeah, I just would have thought on the strength of the advertising alone, which is quite persistent, sometimes verging on the aggressive. I would have thought that most people,

now convinced that they would be wise to take out some kind of a funeral plan and therefore allow their family to know something about it. Anyway, Judith goes on to say, consequently, the type of service, songs and hymns and even the buddies that the bun fight after have been down to the family and friends left behind.

The music in particular has become quite interesting in the more recent years. Yes, when beneath my wings has featured. And Judith says that she agrees with you on this one, Jane. Let's not start that one again. Let's not. Let's not. Other notable inclusions have ranged from the old rugged cross.

Everyone is Jim Reeves. I don't remember that. Jim Reeves was wildly popular in my local radio days. There was a Sunday request show and there would always be at least one request for a song from Jim Reeves. Was he tie a yellow ribbon around the old oak tree? No, no, no, he wasn't. No, that was...

Was that Valdun again? No, he may have done a version of it. God, that was... Was it Tony... Tyre yellow? Can he just look... Does it Tony Christie? So am I right in thinking, though, that Jim Rees did a kind of Sunday evening show where he sat in a rocking chair and sung, or is that just a terrible...

That is Valdunican. Feverdream from my childhood. And Jim Rees is American. Okay, all right, this is all completely useless. Other notable inclusions. Tell you what, that's sheltered housing. It's coming a bit closer. It is.

I've ranged from the old Rugged Cross through going underground. I mean, the balls. of someone's play going underground at a funeral is fantastic perfect day which is about drugs isn't it? Lou Reed and Highway to Hell he could honestly have written a book about

it but I merely being an observer and not involved in the business have learned that it's absolutely essential to make your choices clear to those who will probably be in charge don't just put it in your will because it's very likely that that won't be looked at until you're underground or furnished if you don't choose some false

who didn't know you well will go and choose all things bright and beautiful no one ever sings all those bloody verses and refrains. It's true actually I give up the will to live halfway through all things bright and beautiful. But that's such a good point because I hadn't really thought about that

will reading thing because it often does take place way after the funeral. So then you'd find in the will that actually Uncle Bob didn't want to be furnished and what would you do then? Well, tricky times. I think Bob would find that he no longer had any

further options. I know, but you do keep saying this about how it doesn't matter, you know, because people are dead, but it does matter actually. And it really matters because if you feel that you've got it wrong, especially, I think, with your parents, it is a great big thing to add to your loss. So I think it's... Try and get it right for them. Yes, it is really important. It is my dad's 92nd birthday today on that note. Well, happy birthday. He won't be listening. Oh, well. I have spoken to him today, yes. Tony Orlando. That's right, not Tony

Christi. That's the Amarillo, isn't it? Don't you? Yes, yeah. Let's not start that ear one. Can I just do the second bullet point from Judith? My late father, a Cumbrian farmer, once spent a very large sum of money, on an extremely well-trained and intelligent border collie sheepdog. He

collected it from North Wales and tried to set it to work. Things didn't go well, and it was then that we discovered it only understood Welsh. The dog, Meg, was returned to Wales for retraining in the English language. Subsequently, they were very happy together for many years in a long and mutually adoring partnership.

All's well and all that. I think that's fascinating. So, you know, you can train a dog in a language, but then they won't understand just through intonation what it is that you're asking them to do. How could they? Well, but wasn't that our original correspondence suggested that actually you could?

Because you're using the same kind of... You know, when you say to a dog, you know, come here, it is the same intonation in every single language. And there's a certain voice that an awful lot of dog owners, especially I'm going to say this, hate me if you want to, who've got little kind of, you know, very, very well-pleaned small pedigree dogs. There's an intonation they use, which I would have thought is annoying the world over.

I think I'd be annoyed in a park in Japan. I'll be annoyed in the parking as a non-dog owner Can you just do an impression of that? Oh, come here, peachy-beachy, come. No, don't go in that bush, no, peachy-beachy, don't go in that bush. There's nothing for you in that bush.

Come back here. It is, naughty bee-chee. All right, stop now. That. Okay. This is from a listener who's found us for, it's Rebecca, she's back. Rebecca, for God's sake.

I've finally found you. Have you? did you move to another planet? Are you on the International Space Station? I mean, it's been, is it three years or nearly four? It's coming up to four. No, isn't it, we're into, we're almost into our fourth, aren't we? Is that right? Yeah. Golly, okay. I mean, you and I have been together for, I think, longer than both our marriages, and all of mine put together, but we've only been here, doing it daily for, I think, three and a bit years. I can't believe you were here all along, hiding in plain sight, she says, the mystery of algorithms. Wouldn't your

algorithm be my algorithm? I don't know. This whole world is just such a baffler. I mean, I'm just never more amazed than when I see the things that are recommended to me. And then, of course, you realise that you, there is all sorts of reasons why you're being shown the things you're shown. And that reminds me of your interview this week with Nick Clegg. Yeah, maybe we'll talk about that in a mo. Okay. And Rebecca says, I've also just discovered your book club. And I've got a suggestion for an

autobiography, Just Kids by Patty Smith. Whoa. Now, I really don't know anything about Patty Smith other than she's really important. Should I know, what do you know about Patty Smith? Would that be something we could investigate? I think that sounds amazing. And what's the title? Just kids.

Just kids. Yeah. So already that's quite evocative, isn't it? It's suggesting that they did an awful lot of things, but actually maybe they weren't grown up enough to do them. Yes. Do you know what? We've had amazing suggestions for a,

autobiographies, memoirs and biographies, so we'll do a great big run-through of them and then do our... Are we going to do the same as we did before? Put them in piles. It'd be announced on Thursday, will it? God, we've got a busy day tomorrow, though, haven't we? Announced.

Stand well back. So Nick Legger's written a book. It's about being at the crossroads of AI. Oh, it'd be funny if he'd written one about being in crossroads. God, I'd read that. I think it'd sell more. It's really interesting though, Jane. It's really, really interesting

because he's been in the room at Meta and of course I'm going to ask him how much he's actually allowed to talk about what happened at Meta. He's quite candid in some parts of the book but it would have been gone over with a fine tooth comb. They stopped Sarah Wynne Williams for publicising her book.

She's very good by the way, careless people. Mehta's lawyers. But there's an awful lot of stuff in there. there and and he's right we are absolutely at a crossroads and if we don't get it right now then I think all of us realise that rowing back will be an impossibility so there's lots to talk about with him and we will talk about him leaving this aisle these aisles in order to go and enjoy the sunshine and the huge amount of money being offered over in Silicon Valley but I'm going to try and ask him lots of questions that aren't just about that because I think

I mean, that just happened, didn't it? I mean, he's never going to say, oh, no, fee, you're absolutely right. I should never have taken all of that money. I should have stayed here. And, I mean, he could have, you know, written another book about his time in politics. But I don't think that that would have really taken anybody on a journey any further than one we'd already been with the coalition government. But if you are, if you're nodding off and you wake up tomorrow

and you think, oh, I must read that book about being in Crossroads, well, the nickleg's written. You'll be disappointed. I'm quite interested in what he does next. He's a man who's failed upwards, spectacularly. Oh, God, blimey. Are you going to say that to him? Yes.

Okay. Right. I'm okay. Yes. I mean, I do, I think I remember interviewing him. I could be wrong. Ages ago, over a decade ago, about parental leave and how, because it was a Lib Dem initiative, I think, wasn't it to get men to take paternity leave,

but no one took it? I don't think he'd take it. So he was a little bit exposed because he was bigging it up but then couldn't really explain why so few men had taken advantage of it. So I think there are some things that he did in the coalition government like that

which I think are fantastic. Well, except it didn't work. No, but it didn't work because people didn't take it up. It didn't work because, you know, there was something of Nick Clegg about it. It didn't work because men didn't find enough support within the workplace to do it.

And also, I suspect a lot of men saw that the hit the hit that women take and thought, well, I don't want that. Yeah. So I'm not going there. And also there was, and still is, an imbalance in most heterosexual couples pay packets so it makes more sense for a woman to take maternity leave than it does for a man.

But I wouldn't deride him at all for wanting to put that into play. And also he did the school run. When he was in government, Deputy Prime Minister, he changed the time of the morning meeting because he was the one who had to drop off the kids. So there's lots about him that I don't want to just kind of bash him into the ground at all But I think his trajectory is just really fascinating I don't think if you and I had tanked a political party

We would be given the opportunity to take those skills somewhere else And you know display them in a kind of peacock feathered tail manner And be paid millions and millions of pounds I suppose my sympathy, God, this is getting quite political But what else could he have done? done, but go into government with David Cameron. It presented his party with their first opportunity ever actually to form part of the government. No, I completely agree with you. And you're going to want power. There isn't anything that you can do from the sidelines.

It had been a very long time since the Liberal Party had had power. So no, I completely agree. I think he was right to do it. And it was a lose-lose situation for the Liberal Democrats to find themselves in. They weren't ever going to be able to push through absolutely everything. their supporters wanted because it was a coalition government but I think uh what he underestimated was people's ability to understand that because we just get frustrated don't we in the world of increasing and then the tuition fees it was hopeless the tuition fees wasn't great no it really wasn't anyway look more nickleg later on in the week well i i cannot wait um okay um i wanted to mention this from one of our regular correspondence. Brenda, thank you for this. Brenda's in County Antrim.

Thank you for mentioning the fact that women and girls are at far more risk of sexual assault and violence from our so-called indigenous males than any migrant foreign men we are ever likely to encounter. Here in Northern Ireland, we had a very similar situation. You'll remember this to Epping at the start of the summer. Do you remember that? There were days of rioting and intimidation of newcomer families, mostly legal and working people, which spread to several towns. It was all supposedly about quotes protecting our women. In fact, Northern Ireland is statistically the most dangerous place in the UK to be a woman. Whilst all the mayhem was raging around here about the migrants,

at least three women were reported killed in domestic abuse incidents. I mean, and this, Brenda, thank you, and this is the truth. And by the way, we've also had emails saying we're far too pinky liberal on this. And if we had teenage daughters and we live close to that hotel in Epping, we wouldn't perhaps have the same attitudes. I mean, I do, I absolutely take that point and I don't think I would be entirely happy if a migrant hostel was in my street.

I've got to be totally honest, I think I probably would and if it was entirely populated by young men but I would wait until something happened before I made a judgment. I wouldn't be parading up and down the street swathed in the flag of St George before anything occurred. I don't know, we've actually got a probation hostel

very close to where I live. And I've lived there over 25 years and there's never been a single incident around it. So look, what do I know? Yeah. That's just my, as we say, lived experience. Yeah, I mean, I think I'd agree with you. I think I would, in fact, I know that I would say to both my children, you know, these are the people who've arrived in our local community, you know, also watch out for your safety when you're with them. Not only watch out for your safety. when you're walking past a group of people who have come relatively recently to the country. That's the thing, isn't it?

Because it's not that they're going to suddenly take over and be the only ones who are problematic for women and girls. There is a community already doing that. Oh, yes. They're, quote, indigenous. Oh, gosh, indigenous. I mean, the thing about Britain, the thing about almost every country on earth is,

we probably would have we will have listeners to know so much more about this is anyone indigenous 100% to the place where they live I just don't think that can be can anyone have their DNA

absolutely nailed down as being 100% rooted in the place where they are currently living well we know for a fact that your sister card so we've got our doubts about you exactly we were looking through a pamphlet

actually at the weekend about the line of succession going back in our royal family which is fascinating you're hoping for some good news just went all the way back to you know the kind of the seventh or eighth century and you're absolutely right you know we are formed from danes and from celts angles and yep jutes and then obviously quite a lot of german there's what is english What is the pure English thing? And what does it mean you are? Because I would also argue that the way that we travelled around the world

is no great advertisement for tolerance. Jeremy's incoming with his hot tuna. Hang on, because yesterday we were both a little bit troubled by the idea of he chew tuna. I don't mind hot tuna if it's come from a fishmongers, but the tuna that's in a can, I don't know. I love the way. You said fishmonger then.

Fishmonger. The local fishmonger. Good morning. I'd like a slice of halibut. Yes. Well, I mean, if that's how they say it in Crosby, then that's fine. Incoming from Jeremy in my student days, I heated a can of tuna and a tin of Campbell's condensed mushroom soup. Oh, dear. Okay. If you're heading off to university, don't do this. I hope nobody's listening to this on a cross-channel ferry. and then served it gets worse

and then served it with some ready salted crisp sprinkled on top and Jeremy does have the humility to say it tastes better than it sounds I used to call it tuna slot but my now wife you got yourself a wife well well done

she's a lucky lady suggested I call it tuna surprise apologies to Jamal for the exclamation marks Jeremy thank you for that and tuna I'd be tempted to give I let a go just out of... I'm not. Culinary curiosity, a can of tuna and mushroom.

But listen, I mean, my student days, my cooking was so... I mean, cooking, it doesn't even... I was a vegetarian, so I just used to eat dairyly sandwiches. And then for pudding, I'd have one of those boil syrup puddings. I'd eat the whole thing. Oh, my God. I don't think we ever had puddings in a student house. Well, this was...

I used to cook this. because I lived in university accommodation for two years and in the second year, yeah, we had a little kitchen so I would just put the, you know, you could boil it. A Heinz syrup, syrup puddings and a tin. No, I'm sure you could, but I'm just saying I don't think we ever bothered with pudding. I think we just did massive amounts of, I mean, there was a lot of... I only ate the main course to get to the pudding.

Pasta surprise going down. We didn't have pasta. I honestly don't remember us cooking with pasta at student university. Student university. I don't think I could be completely wrong because in my childhood we just used pasta to make collages

Well that's quite wasteful and a bit weird Why would you also be eating it? Because you just think Your primary school would have You know Would just have a jar of pasta shapes That you could If you were doing a harvest festival collage

Then that's what you'd use the pasta for We never dreamt of using it for anything else Good Interesting Okay Do you think that these days they're doing something creative in year four with some gluten-free baster

They'd have to be very careful, wouldn't they? They certainly would. Now, I'm sorry, it was my phone that beeped and it was because I'd texted my mum about the Blenheim orange apples. Oh, yes. But unfortunately, she's managed to delete the message. So she saw Blenheim for a second,

but then her finger blasted the message. So she says, sorry, if you're asking if it's good, Yes, very good. It's an eater. It lasts till January in store and cooks down to a creamy puff. So we've got some knowledge about it. It cooks down to a creamy puff. Stewed apple? Yes. I'm going to go back in and ask her whether. So clearly she does have access to the blend of orange in order to know this.

So I think we might be able to help out our lovely listener and get some sent to her dad. Okay. That would be good, actually. And this is from Claire. We have been talking about the Thursday Murder Club and sheltered housing. but Claire's got a positive experience here. She says her parents were married for nearly 70 years and her father died during COVID, so her mom was left alone on a housing estate. The neighbours were nice, but they were busy

and she just didn't see many people, only my sister and myself once a week. So we got her to move to sheltered housing in South Sea, near both of us. That's at 91 though, so at the age of 91 she left the family home and moved to sheltered housing. But it's worked in this case.

It doesn't always work, has worked in this case. Three years later, she is a different woman. And she's 94, obviously now. She's made many friends, age between 60 and 100. She's in the book club, the poetry club, two different friendship groups. She plays bingo and scores for the carpet bowls. It was a huge gamble, says Claire,

particularly the packing up and the downsizing, to a one-bedroom flat from a three-bedroom house, but it's paid off. Well, look, I mean, we obviously, you can't generalise about this, but how wonderful that your mum is having. such a lovely time. And can I also just mention, because we're talking about mothers,

this other email from an anonymous listener, and I think you're very brave to say this, because I'm sure you're not alone, but basically her mum has just completed a five-night stay with her. And our correspondent says, I just felt so sad, frustrated, and a terrible daughter. Now, I'm just going to have to paraphrase here, but you do tell us that your mum lives alone.

She does have a dog, but she's very lonely. mom doesn't really make much of an effort to join in with her local community she puts the barriers up and takes the opinion that the person already has an established friendship group and she doesn't want to crash into anything that anybody's already got going on and to be fair your mum also has terrible pain caused by osteoarthritis and she won't push this issue at GP appointments and she's resistant to help actually which I don't think is uncommon

in older people sometimes I also struggles, says our listener, to find areas of common interest to chat about with mum, as her life revolves around live telly and mine doesn't. We do have some shared interests like gardening, but mum has this thing where a positive statement is followed by a negative, e.g., I saw a deer, but it was limping. I saw a beautiful fox, but it was dead on the side of the road. So it really feeds into her low mood, says our listener.

for difficult phone calls and difficult visits with a limiting conversation. I just find it hard when she comes to stay. It feels like she craves company, but then when she has company, she struggles to be in company. Now, interestingly, she does say our correspondent, that since her mom has gone home, her sister has reported to her that her mom seemed to have had a lovely time, and she spoke very highly of her visit.

so that's a slightly confusing a message I know but I wonder whether in some elderly people thinking back to something they've done brings them more pleasure than it may seem to have done at the time they were doing it oh I'm sure that's a case but I'm not sure that that's confined to old people I think there's a certain breed of person

who doesn't ever seem to be particularly happy in the moment but it finds themselves contented by having spent time with people yeah so and the next thing, I think that is so hard. It's going to be almost impossible, isn't it, to turn somebody's character traits around by the time that age. I think it's tough. And, you know, if what they see in the world is something a bit pessimistic and a bit sour, that's just how it's going to be, but really hard work to be around. It is, but also, I've, I mean, I've never

lived with pain, chronic or otherwise. And I think if you are in pain pretty much permanently, then life's going to be a lot harder, isn't it? So you're not really going to turn up at your daughters and spread nothing but unconfined joy for five days. Also, correspondent, can I just say five days? That's a long time. That's a very long time. The three-day rule for relatives and fish.

What's the saying? Well, you know, by day three, even fish go off. And I do think if you can make visits short and snappy, all to the good. Yeah, but not always possible. older people can't know can they the idea of just you know dashing in for a couple of nights would make it seem too onerous to even embark on so maybe you could just have day three where you just agree that you won't say anything to each other at all you just go about your

daily business and regroup at the end you don't actually have to kind of hang out for the whole five days that's interesting perhaps if your mom came to stay for a month you could just find a way of living that didn't make it like an event gosh a month maybe that's too ambitious but it doesn't you're right not every night of a stay has to be party does it you'd have silent Wednesdays

should we do silent Wednesdays I think in a podcast it would be challenging but we could if you like do you know what you just don't have you just don't have any curiosity Jane okay let's try it tomorrow shall we Susie's back in from Sydney

I'm pleased that you two find the expression a gulp of swallows appealing and Jane your pronunciation of the snail pack was unexpectedly excellent. Well, I think people, you know, it wasn't my accent that was the problem when I was doing French. It was just I couldn't do anything else. I couldn't speak. Well, I could speak.

I could do the accent. I just didn't know the words. Okay. Yeah, I was all right with the accent. We were talking about the French government's about to collapse, which is, yeah, which is something that, let's be honest, the British always quite enjoy. I mean, it used to be that the Italian government fell about twice a month.

Well, it did, but... been relatively static. Maloney has managed to keep it going for a very long time. She's shown more stamina than all of those men who tumbled. And they really did tumble, didn't they? Well, some of them did more than tumbling. Yes, you're right. Susie just says, see above Finch and Wren, who refer to themselves collectively as the birdies. So these are her grandchildren.

In another splash of fun family facts, they each have an older sister who share a birthday, as do their identical twin mothers. It's a lot to get one's head around and there's a delightful apostrophe in the right place there. Keep on keeping on. That's just an extraordinary... That's beyond coincidence.

That's so weird. So you've had twins, you've had two girls born on the same day and then they go on to have their kids at the same time. I can completely understand that but they have other siblings who are born on exactly the same day.

That's just a lot of same day. action. I mean that is statistically extremely unlikely. Isn't it? But so often in families a generation's birthdays will only be separated by 24 hours or on the same day. Way more than statistically should be probable. So do you have anybody in your family across the generations who has a very close birthday? Because my mum and grandmother was separated by a day. But myself, one of my sister's children and my dad are separated by only four days and I bet out there there are lots of people who've had kids on exactly the same day as one of the parents or grandparents it's spooky Jane that is well I mean we've set you some tasks why does that happen surely it's not that I mean

because obviously the date of your birth is I mean it can't just be that some families have a kind of mating season that's revolting but that's fun that's essentially what we're talking about What? Oh, don't go round to the Dawson's. They're mating. She's on heat. Exactly. Oh, God.

And he keeps jumping up. Get down, Gerald. Gerald, get. Do you like me to do my doggie voices? I don't know. I'm slightly haunted by that. I really don't want to hear that again. Because people don't talk to cats that way, do they?

Oh, sorry, but yes, they do. But it's just there's nobody there to witness them because usually it's a woman living alone. So the cat can't report back. I'm choking about that. As a cat, love it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Yes. Very briefly, I want to bring in Amory in Ireland. We're back to fetter, but I mean, this is the gift that keeps on giving. Who knew? Well, I mean, in fairness, Amory is a cheesemonger. I thought I'd share a way to extend the life of your fetter. So this is important. Go to pen and paper.

I'm literally writing it down there. No. Okay. Has everybody got one in the group? When you open the pack, this is quite an effort, but this does come from a cheesemonger. When you open the pack, mix approximately one pint of cold water

to one heaped teaspoon of salt. Stir until dissolved and store the fetter in it. Put it into the fridge in a lunchbox or jar, anything where you can seal it. You need to change the water and the salt solution if it's there more than two to three days. hope you find this of interest and thank you for all the hours of chat

thank you for putting up with it and Marie okay salt water I was applying that to my younger daughter's big toe the other day which you thought she might have an infection so I've kept the water and I can now stick my fetter in it won't do any harm well it? No it won't do any harm at all it'll just be a nice towy brine

we did read out another suggestion on exactly the same wavelength yesterday I know but that's an alarm oh okay we're just I thought it might have been a feticum plea I'm sorry everybody you know that brief period where I came off HRT

God I went back on it No no as penance I will be silent Wednesday tomorrow Jane will just do the talking I'll just going to sit quite in the corner I'm just looking up at the screen where the new leader of the Green Party is talking

And I didn't know anything about his backstory, did you? Well, I think he's got hypnotic powers, hasn't he? I mean... Sorry, I genuinely knew nothing of this. I mean, all I'll say is British politics has just got a little bit more... Well, interesting is a good catch-all adjective that you can apply at this stage. This is from Julia. Oh, this is about cheese scones.

Now, I didn't mention this yesterday, but I have this, I don't, we used to have them at primary school of cheese scones and I didn't like them then and I've never had one since. But clearly I just haven't gone to the right places. Julia says, I can tell you on good authority that the Avon Mill Garden Centre near Kingsbridge in South Devon makes the best cheese scones in the world. They are huge, irregularly shaped, actually full of sharp tasting cheese. Sounds a little bit like me.

Peppery with black pepper and served extremely hot. can have one just with butter or you can combine it as part of a savory cream tea with butter plus chili jam also made locally at the south devon chili farm add a cup of tea and the whole experience is to die for and you probably would if you ate them too often right uh julia thank you very much i do think i need to i need to try again with the whole uh cheese scone thing because clearly i'm missing a real treat i was just trying to find you are I think a cheese scone is just a wonderful, wonderful thing. Have you found the hypnotherapy thing?

Well, I have, but I think I'm just going to save this until tomorrow and condense it into something that I'm pretty sure isn't in any way too contentious or libelous. But if you were to read the story and insert the words, Kea Stama, where Zach Polanski once was, would the story surprise people? What do you mean? Well, if the story about the hypnotherapy and the breasts

also featured or any other leading party official in the UK party leader would it be a bit of a shocker oh I see what you're saying so if when Kier Stama had been elected

to leader of the Labour Party we discovered that we discovered that once he had been able to advertise his services as a hypnotherapist to enlarge women's breasts simply through the art of hypnotherapy would we be surprised by that yes Jane

do you know what there will never come a of my life when I'm not going to be surprised by that. Also quite surprised that people have paid for that service, if I'm honest. Does it make you wonder why you continue to come in here four days a week to talk to me? Well, it does. Very much so. Enhancing women's bosoms from the comfort of your armchair. Well, yes, with my many cats who I'll talk to in whatever voice I like, tipping my toe in brine and then putting it in a little cheese toasting. Yeah. Okay. That's enough then with the brine ideas, just for the time being. Shall we bring in a guest?

I'm delighted to say you're going to hear now from Mary Chamberlain, who is the author. And this really fascinates me, the author of the very first book to be published by Virago Press. How about that? Many people have heard of the classic non-fiction book, Aikenfield, Ronald Blythe's portrait of an English village.

It was first published in 1969. You may not be quite so familiar with another book called Fenwomen, Now this is Mary Chamberlain's, a feminist retort really to Aikenfield, putting the experiences of women and girls in the village of Ireland, front and centre. That came out in 1975, and in fact it was the first ever book published by Varago. Mary was only in her early 20s when she wrote it, and it's now been republished to mark its 50th anniversary. Mary's now Emeritus Professor of Caribbean History at Oxford Brooks University, and she told me why Blythe's book had been so significant. Well, it came out, I think, in the late 60s, and it was a portrait of a Suffolk village. And he went out and he interviewed the various residents of the village and recorded what they said and edited what they told him.

So it was a portrait of a rural village interviewing, I mean, mainly kind of elderly, elderly or elderly. old of residence and it was really the first time I think that you had a kind of first-hand account of what it was like to live in the English countryside in a fairly remote area of England and it was a huge hit I think people reacted and responded very well to the voices of the people that were there. But the main drawback, as far as I could see, was that most of the people he interviewed were men.

Hence, fenwomen. This was a kind of antidote. And much needed. And much needed, yes, because you know, there was a kind of stereotype of the countryside that it was old characters sitting in the pub telling tales of yore

and they were always men and they were, you know, tales of poaching or kind of resistance or whatever it was. But the women were completely invisible. So you were very young when you compiled this book. Tell us about the Mary of the 1970s who put Fen women together.

Well, it was the height of the women's movement. And I think that really is the important context. So we need to remember that at the time, there was no equal pay, there were certainly no equal opportunities, there was no right to choose, you know, if you wanted to get a mortgage or a higher purchase, you couldn't do it if you were a women. So it was a very, very different context. And in the women's movement, I think we wanted

not only to change that landscape, but also to change the history of women to get a very different perspective on the kind of lives that women had lived and continued to live. So that was that was the context in which I did it. So how did it work? I mean, first of all, how did you pick the village, which I know is actually a place called Islam, Islam, yes. That was completely random. We were, my and my then husband kept goats at the time, and for various reasons we were moving

into the Cambridge orbit, and we needed somewhere that would accommodate the goats. So the house that we found in Islam was met that bill. So that was completely random. And it was just while I was living there that a friend of mine said, well, why don't you do a feminist Aikenfield? And what's more, I can introduce you to someone who is setting up a feminist publishing house. And the friend was somebody called Anna Koot, and the friend of hers who was setting up the publishing.

house was Carmen Kalil. So I was introduced Carmen who sent me out to do a sample chapter, which I did and came back with it and she then commissioned me. I mean, she took, I think, a huge risk because I was a completely unknown author. I wasn't really an author then at all, but I had ambition. She obviously liked the sample chapter and the sample interviews I gave her. And that was how it started. So I went ahead and bought the cheapest possible tape recorder and the cheapest possible tapes. I mean, I had no idea in that sense what I was doing.

Now, of course, I wouldn't dream of doing using such inferior equipment. But I went out and interviewed as many of the women as I could. And what was interesting is that you say that some of them were really quite reluctant to speak to you and thought you'd be much better of talking to their husband. Yes, yes. They were the older women. They were the older women. Well, some of the younger ones as well, actually, who said, well, you know, I don't have anything to say, but my husband's got the stories to tell. And trying to persuade them that actually what I wanted to do was record precisely the kind of, you know, their lives.

And also, if you like, the kind of mundane, the humdrum nature. and I think that links back to one of the ambitions that as a feminist historian we wanted to do which was to actually bring to the forefront the importance of those mundane lives because they were absolutely critical in keeping families and community together and had been not really acknowledged.

So these are the fens in Cambridgeshire. Yes. Just about as remote as England gets actually in fairness. Well, it was then. And, I mean, in fairness now, I think it's more accessible. But certainly then, it was pretty remote. And, you know, we have to remember that it was only 30 years after the Second World War. And many of the roads had not even been built.

You know, they were built during the war to give access to the various airport, you know, airbases that were close by. But it was very remote. and the people who lived in it worked locally it existed before if you like there was a commuter mentality and now it's become very much a kind of

dormitory town for Cambridge but you could drive there and it's only 18 miles but not back then but not back then and the people you spoke to there were so many divisions within what was a very small community

I mean stuff I just hadn't appreciated at all uptown and the east end and then people who went to the church and people who went to the chapel so divisions between a Protestant community in a tiny village incredible yes no yes absolutely

and certainly the chapel church rift went back a very long time and there were I mean even within the chapel community there was a rift as well so you know but I mean I mean very often

You know, the politics are more ferocious, the smaller the community. The misogyny was also there for all to see. And lots of it, frankly, is what I now know myself is internalised misogyny. The grandmothers, who, for example, took exception to the idea of a play group. Yes. They didn't want the mothers getting together and having fun with small children. Or, I mean, the other side of it was that they felt that the mother's role was to bring up the children. and that actually what we were doing

was abrogating that responsibility to somebody else. I mean, you know, it existed before there was a kind of broad understanding about how important play was for children and how, you know, early socialisation was critical for that educational development. So, you know, setting up the play group was really setting it up against quite a lot of resistance.

And just for people's benefit, We're talking about the 1970s here, the early 1970s. I was already at school. Indeed, in 1975, when I think this book came out, I was at secondary school. And it really struck me listening to the thoughts of the young girls that you spoke to. Their ambitions were, well, what were they? They were very limited. You know, they wanted, and they were all within the kind of caring professions,

if indeed it was a professional interest. So you talk to them and they would say, I want to be a nurse or I want to be a hairdresser or I want to be a housewife. I mean, it was, you know, it kind of pivoted around really those three options. But, you know, where were the role models? You know, their mothers were, you know, on the whole stay at home mothers or and or worked from home. So many of the mothers, of course, had small holdings or grew flowers. hours, but it was a home-based industry. So there wasn't the, they didn't see kind of horizons

beyond that for women. And, you know, I think to be fair, probably the boys didn't see them either, you know, because generally the employment opportunities were really very limited. But there were women you spoke to, and I think a lot of people will really, particularly women of my generation, we should appreciate our good fortune more than we do, I think sometimes. Oh, yes, I agree. But Marjorie, who was a woman you met, she was only in her late 50s. She'd had depression and her GP had been incredibly unsympathetic. But here was a woman who had missed the boat in education terms.

And she's quoted as saying, I always feel frustrated as if there's something I haven't done in life with my head. Yes. Because she was a clever woman. Yes. And, I mean, you know, she wasn't the only one. I think there were a number of women who either weren't given the opportunity or if they did, did win a scholarship, their parents couldn't afford for them to go because, of course, you know, you might have got free tuition, but the cost of the uniform, the books and everything else was on top of that. So I think there were a lot of women who, you know, who did miss out and who felt as if they'd always had a kind of lack in their lives.

and it's heartbreaking. I mean, you know, the, and I can't now remember whether it was Marjorie or whether it was another woman who managed to get a job in service at Homerton College. I think it was Marjorie, yes. Who, you know, looked at the students there and thought, I could have been one of you.

And, I mean, even now, and I can recount the story, I mean, I feel a catch in my throat because it is so devastating, really, that, you know, that potential really was never properly realised. And we are nostalgic, I think, at our peril about how things used to be. Oh, I quite agree. Well, I mean, the poverty that is exposed in this book. Tell me about that.

Well, I mean, you know, many of the older women spent time in the workhouse or their family spent time in the workhouse. you know for many particularly those whose breadwinner was on casual employment you know the winter was a devastating month and there are women there who will tell you stories of you know having huge families of course with no food absolutely no food in the house at all and i can't imagine what that must be like but i've come from a very privileged background i mean it should be pointed out as well that you know although that those devastating levels of poverty on one level, you know, we like to think aren't with us, but of course, you know, there are, there is poverty for the, you know, for the older women's, but also, you know, for some of the younger ones where money was very tight.

You know, the welfare state, thank God, I mean, actually cushioned a lot of that. But for many of those women who were bringing up families or children before the welfare state, you know the way the mothers had to scrimp and scrape and just be ingenious about making the few farthings they had go to feed a family and the women you talk to about their expectations of married life I mean almost nobody nobody knew anything about sex and there were some women who genuinely didn't know they were pregnant

there was one young woman you talk about who was pregnant did not know how she was going to give birth. No, absolutely. Honestly asked if it was going to come out of the naval. Yes, yes, absolutely. I mean, that should be said, that's for the older generation. Yes, yes, but they were still alive and well. But they were still alive and well.

No, it was absolutely horrifying. You know, that that level of ignorance, and she was actually in labour before her mother finally said, well, it comes out the same way it went in. And then the penny dropped it. about the facts of life. But, you know, there is a kind of myth that if you live in the country

and you see, you know, the cattle at it and the dogs at it, that you know how babies come. But, you know, that isn't true. How did your interviewees regard you, do you think? I think they probably didn't think I was serious. I mean, I'm not sure that they thought a book would really come out of it because I was very young

and I, you know, was then and still am pretty technologically inefficient. So I would fumble with the tape recorder and keep testing that it was working and so on. So I think they thought it was a thoroughly amateur process. And did they read the book when it did come out? Well, this is the sad story because the news of the world did an expose before the book had even come out. and they took you know they sensationalised elements

totally sensationalised and took them out of contact and it caused rightly a huge upset in the village and it was very difficult to persuade people in the village I had a village meeting to say look you know

please read the book and they were saying no we're not reading filth like that and trying to persuade them that actually there was no filth in it at all that this was, you know, a very genuine attempt to record the lives of women and bring them into the historical record. So at the time, I don't know how many women had read the book.

One or two of the men had, interestingly, and at the meeting they came forward and said, you know, we should be thanking Mary for this. Oh, well, that's rather heartening. Very heartening, yes. but you know I've no idea how many read it to this day I don't know you've been back to the village since I have been back I mean to see you know I have friends in the village so I've been back to to visit them and and in fact I mean to

re-record one of the people who I originally recorded back in 75 and to get her perspective now on her life how has things been for her well she is one of the few people who stayed working on the land. But for many of the women who made an income from flower growing or from swamholding, that has now diminished. She is, I think,

she's, you know, I think the last of the flower growers in the village, but she also has other farming interests. So, you know, for her, I mean, it's been a very hard life, I think. You know, working on the land is not easy on the body. And we, you know, we need to remember that.

Yes, I mean if there is one thing you would like a woman who is now in her early 20s and by good fortune is growing up in the UK because there's not easy for women all over the world, we know that but here you have every opportunity actually if you're in good health and you have something in your family locker possibly to send you on your way what do you want them, what would you like them to take them away from fen women? Just seize every opportunity I think but from fenwomen

well the same the same actually work you know work at those opportunities it's you know it can be difficult you can be constrained by budget

by circumstance by education but I think you have to be hopeful and you just have to try and see beyond the horizon Mary Chamberlain and the book is called Fen Women and any time you think your life's a little bit tough.

I think I would advise you to have a little look at this book. It's a beautiful paperback edition that they're just publishing now to mark the anniversary of Varago Press. And it makes you... You know, we were talking the other day to James Fox about craft and about working with your hands

and just how tough it was. Nostalgia is just quite a dangerous thing because the past was bloody difficult for so many people. Brutal, cold, hard. And your life was short. And for women and... girls, often unbelievably shit. So let's just stop with all the whimsy about how things used to be.

And Fee, embrace the present. Let's embrace the present. Yeah, yeah. It's a very good idea. So, the book is called Fen Women by Mary Chamberlain. Do you know why it was the first book published by Varago? No. Well, that's it.

But I do now know. Something for a later edition. had to keep with better going okay and we wish the new leader of the green party very well maybe he could enlarge the membership we'll be back at the same time tomorrow no he didn't do that he just did brusums with nick Clegg goodbye Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio. audio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.