Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Boris' bag of bras (with Ken Follett)

Episode Date: September 26, 2023

Jane is reunited with Ken Follett and she's thrilled. In this particularly giddy episode, they also chat HRT dreams and getting better in your 50's. Ken joins them to discuss his new novel 'The Armour of Light'. The final book in the Kingsbridge series. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Kate Lee Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You alright? Yes, I'm fine, although we're already heading for lurgy season, aren't we? Oh no, don't. No, I mean, I'm fine, but... We've got some absence already in the office, haven't we? And do you know what? Yeah, I know a lot of people who have got the COVID at the moment. Yeah.

Spreading around the schools. Yeah, my youngest nephew's off with it. Yeah. And he's been back at school two weeks. I mean, yeah, I should say, actually, it's still, I know some people don't get it badly, but you don't want it. It does seem to knock you out for a couple of days, this version of it. Well, quite a few overheard conversations uh have been exactly that yeah people just saying no it's really bad it was

just as bad as the first time but look let's not do monger our way into the podcast because people have come to us for light relief chain light relief at the end of a long day come to us for uplifting intellectual stimulation yeah thank. Thank you to this listener. Can I start? Okay, that's it. Yeah. Rachel, don't worry. I'm coming to you in a sec.

Off you go. This is from somebody that we were talking about names, weren't we, yesterday? And this listener has the fantastic name Wanda. They describe themselves as they're our number one fan in Namibia. So I don't think we've ever had an email from Namibia before. So welcome, Wanda, if you're new to the podcast, really appreciate you listening. Thank you for that fun interview with Geoffrey Archer. I am wowed that he still has zest and energy to write even at his advanced age, 83. Wanda says, I'm 49 and it makes me feel like I haven't done much and I could do more. It was genuinely very inspiring.

There you go. And I think 49, by the way, absolutely nothing. Don't write yourself off. Get writing. That would be Geoffrey's advice. I don't want to take Geoffrey's advice. Geoffrey was a man who used his own name a lot. Did he?

Did he say I, Geoffrey? No, but when he relates an anecdote, the person in the anecdote has always used his name. You'll notice if you revisit the interview, as I'm sure you will, and I certainly will, that he says that every single person he meets says, well, Geoffrey. The thing is, Geoffrey,

and I'm not sure in real life people do that, but anyway. Anyway, Wanda, thank you for the email. And I'd be interested to hear whether Geoffrey has inspired you to do a bit of writing. Shall I just balance it out with one from Nicky? Do. Dear Jane and Jane, I had to turn off the Geoffrey Archer interview. Well, that person wasn't alone, I should say.

I wish Times Radio would stop giving you imperious patronising Tories, both old and new, to interview. Did Fee do a runner when she heard here beyond? I'm normally a loyal listener, even tuning into the book club without reading the book, and that is brave. Next time, next time, I will read it next time. So there you go. And I didn't do a deliberate swerve on Geoffrey Archer or Sir Nicholas Soames.

It just happened to work out. Funny, isn't it? I'm going to balance it again with Helen in Ilkley. Hello, Helen. That was one of the most enjoyable interviews I've ever heard on the radio, says Helen. It is interesting. Geoffrey Archer is a man who divides opinion.

And for me, that probably makes him worth booking absolutely no pun intended by the way tomorrow literary heavyweight rose tremaine well i don't think i think she's a very successful writer i don't think she would describe herself as literary heavyweight we can ask her yeah i think her books are way more on the readable scale than the term literary heavyweight implies. Literary heavyweight is one of those euphemisms I always think in the publishing industry, which just means I cannot finish that book. I know someone said it was brilliant, but I just can't finish it. I suppose, actually, we did have an interesting email and I've got some sympathy with this listener who said we've had too many men on lately. Yeah, we have had a lot of men on. And it sometimes does feel that way

and we've taken note. So thank you. And do you know what, I sometimes think as well, the problem with having lots of men of a similar, you know, incredibly successful either at writing or well, usually just writing, who've come from a political background sometimes

is that uh we should be treating them all in exactly the same way with all of the same questions that we ask and sometimes i feel that we don't do that and then i wonder why we don't do that and then i get myself into a pickle and then it's 2 45 yeah in the morning and i'm knackered what you think you're thinking about work at 2 45 sometimes i get sometimes sometimes I get a, sometimes I do, I get a, I get the end of a piece of spaghetti in my head when I go to sleep and I wake

up, I'm halfway through it and I have to you know, I have to keep going until I've worked it out and then I can fall asleep again. I'm a night time worrier. Are you? Do you know what, HRT has just knocked that out for me. Oh, that's good. I did used to wake up worrying. Now I just have these absurd dreams.

Notable one this week. Have you got a good one from this week? Well, I don't think I've repeated on the podcast the Boris Johnson on the ferry from Walthamstow one. On a ferry? Yeah. Well, mine also features a former Tory Prime Minister. I needed to upgrade my phone.

An annual, it's not quite annual, is it? It's like every couple of years you get an upgrade from your phone supplier. See, I don't understand the language. I cannot go unaccompanied and normally take a child with me. And the child, this is in real life, the child couldn't be available. So that night I dreamt that Theresa May came with me

and she was terrifically helpful. I bet. Yeah, no, she was. She was great. She was quite me and she was terrifically helpful. I bet. Yeah, no, she was. She was great. She was quite stern and she got the job done. Oh, I bet she got a good deal. She got a very good deal.

I've got any number of texts and minutes. Thanks, Theresa. Anyway, what happened? Didn't you order it on a ferry? Oh, no, this is the... So I'll just keep it really, really brief. I do. I was on a ferry

coming back from Walthamstow. Impossible. It's a landlocked borough. Okay. And on a ferry coming back from walthamstow impossible it's a land it's a landlocked borough okay and on the ferry was boris johnson and boris johnson had a marks and spencer's bag and i said what's inside your bag and he said well it's bras my mother's finally allowed me to buy her bras for her i said oh that's very nice boris went to sit down look round and David Cameron and George Osborne were on the ferry too and I ignored them, got back to my house, Andy Peters was outside, he had a loud hailer and he was advertising the Hope Festival or the Expectation and Hope Festival, something like that.

That's good. I told this whole dream to my late in life love treat. Therapist. No, partner. And the thing that he went to look up was whether or not there was a Hope and Expressions festival. Well. Out of all of that dream. No.

That's what he honed in on. I suppose he was clutching at a straw there. There isn't, by the way. There isn't? No. I think that maybe there should be. Well maybe and maybe Andy Peters should be advertising it. Because outside my house are the loud

hailer Jane. The hope and expressions. I think people would go. Do you think? Absolutely if that was in East London and there was sourdough and kombucha you'd have a queue five miles down the road to go to that. Well do you think we could do it together?

The Jane Garvey and Fee Glover Hope and Expressions Festival, we could become the equivalent of Fern Cotton's Happy Place. Okay, let's write all that down and contact our agent. She's so busy with Angela Rippon at the moment, but she hasn't got time for us. But look, I could do

with turning down my HRT because I don't want another tradition like that. OK, now I can understand that. There's just a lot going on there. There's too many. No, there really is. I'll just bring you a little calming anecdote from my real life. Yeah. This morning, I noticed I had just enough time to go to the local library to get a new supply of recycling sacks. I find that the council doesn't deliver them. You know, they just throw them up your path or on your step or whatever.

They never come regularly enough for me because I'm a fervent recycler of paper, newspaper, cardboard and such. You're a wonderful person. Really? I don't know why I haven't got at least an MBE. I mean, it's genuinely beginning to really

rile me. Anyway, I'd run out of recycling sacks. I'm reading Miriam Margulies' second book and she's livid as well that she hasn't got enough. She's not a dame yet. Isn't she a dame? So she can't go on Giles Brandreth's dame stage. Giles Brandreth. She can't go on his dame stage.

Oh no, because he only interviews dames. So little Miriam has to just sit quietly. She's livid. Anyway, so you're at the library with your recycling sacks. No, no, just enough time to go to the library to get some recycling sacks where they just hand them over at the admission desk.

Admission desk? Reception? Reception. Anyway, Fee, it didn't happen. So I came home. And nothing funny happened on the way home? Absolutely nothing. Oh, I did meet my decorator's wife. Okay. Oh, my God.

Is this content? I don't think it is. No, but I'm putting it out there. Challenge. This is a challenge. Have you got a duller story from your real life than that? It can't be made up. None of the Geoffrey Archers. I want you to tell us

email us now with a really dull recent experience that you've had. Or if you don't have time, don't worry. We'll be fine. Okay, do you want to go straight into Ken Follett?

I don't know why that's funny. Stop it. No, it really isn't, actually. So we've had an incredible line-up of guests. Shout-out to Eve for getting these astonishing people on. Our line-up is amazing. So today, Ken Follett. And I think Geoffrey Archer has been a successful writer, but I don't think he's been as successful as Ken Follett.

It is no secret that I'm a huge admirer. And I asked him today if he remembered... This is where the interview starts. It's always like this is produced. I asked him if he remembered how many books he'd sold. Not even vaguely, because I got a message from the computer a couple of days ago. It's now 191 million

is it really that's quite a lot and isn't it nice how it keeps going up well it is it's quite incredible you've sold more books than fee and i have sold and that's some that's saying something isn't it uh so the armour of light is your new book now this is one of your historical books this is set again in kingsbridge yes now there may well be lots of Ken Follett aficionados who know exactly what we're talking about here. But for anyone who never has been to Follett World, and I urge everyone to visit as soon as this interview is over, basically, Kingsbridge is the setting of a number of your books, just starting with The Pillars of the Earth. Started with The Pillars of the Earth. And, you know, if I'd known then that I was going to

write five books, I would have tried to think of a more original name. Kingsbridge, a bit pedestrian, isn't it? Anyway, so in Kingsbridge, Kingsbridge is the town where they build the cathedral in the pillars of the earth. That novel is about the dramas of building a medieval cathedral. And I never thought I would go back to it. In fact, the book had been so hard to write

that I probably would have dreaded the thought of going back to it. In fact, if the book had been so hard to write, then I probably would have dreaded the thought of going back to it immediately afterwards. But people loved that book so much and asked me for a sequel. And there were two problems with that. One is that Pillars of the Earth was a slow burn. It wasn't an immediate success, but it gradually built and built and built. It was almost a cult.

And people started to say to me when you're going to write another book like the pillars of they i would be in a bookshop or a library giving a talk and i always do questions and answers because it's the bit they like best and i like best and somebody would say when are you going to write another book like the pillars of the earth and you know i'm pleasing the readers is actually what i'm about. I don't write to please myself. I don't write to please the critics. I don't write to win prizes. I write to please people.

And so when they had said that a few times, I began to think, look, I've really got to do this. But what could be a sequel to The Pillars of the Earth? I couldn't write another book about the same people because by the end of Pillars, they're all either very old or dead and life expectancy wasn't terribly exactly they died off at 40 especially women yeah women died very young in the middle ages because of childbirth uh anyway um what would be a theme to match the construction of a cathedral. You know, I couldn't have an ordinary theme for... So World Without End is about the Black Death.

Yeah. And that's set in... How people in Kingsbridge cope with the Black Death. And then after that, every time I thought of an idea for a historical novel, I thought, well, maybe I could set it in Kingsbridge. Because I was beginning to like it, and I could tell the readers were beginning to like it.

Where is it? Oxford is hovering somewhere in the distance, isn't it? It's more or less where Marlborough is today. In Wiltshire. Yeah, vaguely. And I had to be a bit vague about it, because otherwise people would have gone to the spot, you know, and

written to me saying I've been, and said, it's written to me saying I've been there and there's no cathedral there again. Armour of Light, The Armour of Light, is set in the late 18th century. And just take us to what is happening in Kingsbridge as we arrive at the beginning of the novel. It's the Industrial Revolution, and so the new machines are turning people's lives upside down. So Sal is one of the main characters, and she, at the beginning of the story, she's spinning with a spinning wheel. And you feed the raw cotton onto the spindle

and you turn the wheel, and gradually all that that fluffy ball of cotton becomes a thread which can then be later woven so this is spinning and had been done by for hundreds of years the same method with that big wheel always done by women because they were so cheap mainly they could be hired they paid paid them very, very badly. And she's doing that, and she gets thrown out of her village. So she's lost her home, and she's lost her means of sustenance. Her husband is dead, she's got a little boy, and she goes to Kingsbridge, and she immediately gets a job in a mill.

And what happened in the Industrial Revolution is that people's lives were often turned upside down in that mill. And what happened in the Industrial Revolution is that people's lives were often turned upside down in that way. But there were also lots of other opportunities. And I use a history book by a historian called Emma Griffin, which is called Liberty's Dawn, which argued that with all the misery that the Industrial Revolution caused, it also gave working people great opportunities. Yes. I mean, you have an incredible cast in this new book, as you do in every book.

You've got your gentry, there's a bishop and his wife. The bishop's wife's an interesting character. There's all sorts of things going on at the bishop's palace. You've got your aristocracy, you've got your workers. But there's also a sense that surviving is a tough old business at this time. Yeah. And food, there are some food riots in the book, aren't there? Yes, that's right, because as well as the Industrial Revolution, on top of all that grief,

there was a war with France that lasted 23 years. And it was quite unpopular. We couldn't do business with France. Our business suffered, and we couldn't buy grain with France. Her business suffered and we couldn't buy grain from France. And so the price of bread went up. It pretty, it almost doubles it. A four pound loaf, which was the standard loaf in those days for working class people, was seven pence at the beginning, seven pence. And it went up to over a shilling, which is almost double. And, and it was an emergency. people on a budget didn't

know how to buy enough bread for their families and women broke into bakeries and stole the bread it was called the revolt of the housewives and that went on for when you can imagine that was just you know when i found that out i thought well that's a whole chapter in the book the revolt of the housewife can i just bring in a question do you mind from sarah in newcast castle actually it goes back to because i was talking yesterday on our podcast off air uh available on all good podcast platforms you must listen ken it's four days a week uh about a sex scene in the armor of light where there is a food riot and our heroine sal she's slightly concussed but then minutes later ken she's romping in a barn with some love interest. Yeah, it's a big turnaround. It certainly is.

And the reason is that she has been living in the same house as this chap for some time, and he's fancied her right from the start. And she doesn't, you know, her first husband died tragically, and she just doesn't want to get into that. No. And so she turns him down. She doesn't dislike him.

He's not as bright as she is, but that doesn't always matter, does it? No. Bea and I both agree with that. So then they're involved in this riot and she gets a bang on the head and he picks her up and carries her out of the crowd. And she realises he's a masterful, if slightly dim, man. I don't think it's even that. I think it's when you've been through something a bit traumatic like that,

you suddenly have a new view of what's important in life. And I think what happens to her, she gets this bang on the head. He's also very caring. You know, she comes round and he's put her on a table in the pub and he gets a glass of brandy for her. She's not seriously injured. No, no, no. And she kind of sees that inside this rather thuggish bloke

there's actually a really kind-hearted man who absolutely adores her. And so she lets him shack her. There we are. Well, there we are, yes. Ken followed there. But actually, to take up the question from Sarah in Newcastle, who says, I love Ken's books. Can you ask him why many of his novels do have one or two sections

with sexual content, as we've just discussed? I'm not a prude, but it makes listening to audiobooks in the car with my teenagers a bit of a risk. Now, you see, I listen to some of your whopping great long books as audiobooks can, because they're brilliant for a commute. But I feel for Sarah, it can be a little risky for her. I suppose it is a little bit embarrassing. These teenagers know about sex, Stella.

I mean, it's not going to come as a surprise to them. I'm thinking more of Sarah. Yes, yes, OK. Well, I'll tell you why. When there's terrific, strong emotion in a novel, it usually has a physical result. So if you think of Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier, that woman, the second Mrs. de Winter,

is stuck in that house with that horrible... Housekeeper. Housekeeper, yeah. And she feels haunted by the first Mrs. de Winter. And it's a terrible ordeal. And how does the book end that house burns down it's a physical ending to an emotional trauma think of Anna Karenina she leaves her boring husband for this glamorous soldier but she's also had to leave behind her son and she's terribly terribly

torn Tolstoy does that sort of stuff quite well if at rather great length she's terribly, terribly torn. Tolstoy does that sort of stuff quite well, if at rather great length. She's terrifically torn. And how does it end? She jumps in front of a train. It's a physical ending. So when you have two people who are romantically involved in a novel, now usually they can't be together.

Every love story is Romeo and Juliet, right? Something's in the way. They belong to rival families or they're on the wrong sides in a war or something like that. Something gets in the way, so for a few hundred pages, they're gazing at one another across crowded rooms, wishing they could be alone, wishing they could kiss, and everything's getting in their way and it's terrible. And then they get together at last,

probably towards the end of the book. And there's a physical expression of everything they've been through. And we want to be there when that happens. We don't want that to happen behind the closed bedroom door. No, we need it described. And how does that feel to you as the author of that? I mean, you know, do you say, seven Hail Marys and go and have a stiff gin and tonic

when that piece is written? No, it's just the same as writing all the other things. Oh, Ken, that's so disappointing. Yeah, that wasn't what I was hoping for. No, you have to get the emotion. And that's the big thing. And it's a big thrill for them because they've been waiting so long for this. And they've been thinking about it and they've been fantasising about it.

And now suddenly they get to do the little things that they've been thinking about. They get to touch each other and take each other's clothes off. And it's great, isn't it? I mean, isn't that one of the best things in life? Well, it is. But I'm thinking as the writer, surely that must give you quite a bit of a different sense of satisfaction at the end of the writing day

than when you're writing about food riots or poverty or death or whatever. No, it's pretty much the same. The requirements are the same. I've got an idea about what's going to happen i've got to bring it to life i've got to make you see the other thing about a love scene is that it should be like any other scene and it should have a beginning middle and an end so it's quite nice if for example one or both of these people, despite all the emotion that's gone before, might be shy. Now, one of them might be thinking,

oh, my God, will she like me when she sees me with my clothes off? And, you know, oh, my God, have I got bad breath? And all that sort of thing that people get nervous about when they're actually about to get naked with one another. So there's that drama. And then it's nice if something goes a bit wrong. Well, I just hope that Sarah's not in the car with her teenagers now as we chat to Ken Follett. I want to just briefly bring in sheep's entrails, if you don't mind,

just to bring the temperature down. Like you do. Well, I may actually be where I've gone wrong. But the level of detail, we were talking before you came into the studio, Ken, about the amount of research that must go into your books. I know you read a lot of historical tomes around your writing, but the idea that at one point Sal and her friend and their children feast on sheep's entrails, I think they were called tripes,

because everything else was too expensive. Red meat is just a fantasy thing thing they can't go near it how did you find out that people ate tripes in the late 18th century um you know to tell you the truth i don't remember where i got that detail but it's the level of that's just an illustration to listeners yeah amount of detail in your writing and i gather you say in the book that actually they take ages to cook. Yes, that's true. They have to stew them up before they can taste of anything. Well, of course, what people eat

is really quite important in making their ordinary lives realistic, isn't it? And it's a good thing to get. The thing about these details is that it makes the story real. Yeah. When you have that little bit of background detail, it's got to be carefully chosen

and you definitely don't want to swamp the reader with this stuff, but you just mention now and again something about their clothes or their food or the coins they're using perhaps. Yeah. Buy things that kind of or how they smoke tobacco you notice that cigars came in halfway through the novel yes i took great note of that that was they're very manly thing curiously cigars aren't they there's something about a man with a cigar that makes them instantly a little bit more attractive probably wrong but there you go

uh i i wouldn't know. I gave up smoking a long time ago. Tom in London says, am I the only person who audibly gussed when Ken mentioned that Tolstoy wrote at some length? What's the shortest book that you've ever published? Oh, my early books were much too short. You know, before I had any success, I wrote 10 books.

And one of the things that were wrote 10 books and one of the things that were wrong with them one of the reasons they were all flops is that they were too short and they were written they were too written too hastily you know with they moved from one thing to another uh too quickly and it was one of the things that was right about eye of the needle that was my first success was that that I managed to slow down. It's still a rather fast-moving book, actually, but I managed to slow down just enough. But that's a classic World War II thriller, isn't it? Now, I listened to that and it was fantastic entertainment.

Oh, good. But I wonder what your publisher made of it when they got a phone call, presumably from your agent, perhaps, saying, well, look, Ken's going to write this book now about the building of a medieval cathedral. Do you mind? I mean, what did they say? Well, they said, don't do it. Well, first of all, they said, so Ken.

It's about building a church. Yes. In the Middle Ages. Yes. Are you sure? And one of the publishers took Barbara aside and said... That's your wife. Sorry, yes, Barbara, my wife. Took Barbara, my took Barbara aside and said... That's your wife. Sorry, yes, Barbara, my wife.

Took Barbara, my wife, aside and said, you've got to stop him writing this book. It's going to ruin his career. But I sort of understand where they were coming from because they feared that I was going to change completely my style of writing and write something difficult and tedious. I was never going to do that.

I was never going to do that. Well, just to make sure that for anyone listening who's never read the Pillars of the Earth series, they are not hard to read. And I'm in no way undermining what you're able to do because you write very simply. The action never stops. And the beauty of it is I picked up The Armour of Light

at about 10 o'clock on Saturday morning. And five o'clock I made a sandwich um you know this was because I was completely involved this is a true I love I love to hear this this is such a compliment to me thank you it's exactly what I'm trying to achieve for most of 2019 she was just reading her books actually the world lost Jane Garvey yeah well then there was aollett but I had Ken so it didn't really matter Now Ken Follett is our guest this afternoon, a multi-million selling author, we often say that but in the case of Ken Follett it's actually true

he has sold 191 million books, which is a lot of books you and your wife Barbara you were very much new labour royalty are you you on board with sakia oh definitely yes yes i i had a problem with jeremy yes uh and i left the party briefly but i've rejoined uh yeah i'm very happy about kia and um we have a very good chance of winning, which obviously Barbara and I are very happy about. We'll be joining in the campaign in Stevenage, as you know. That was where Barbara was the MP for some years.

The thing I'm worried about is that the problems facing Keir Hardie are so... Starmer. Keir Starmer. Keir Hardie was the first Labour MP. Keir Starmer is currently... I was just waiting for Perdition Pedant to get in touch. Yes, thank you. You know, the problems, Ukraine war, climate change, inflation,

these are not easy problems. You know, he's not going to walk into Number 10 Downing Street and have an easy ride. So I'm really, I mean, that's what's sort of on my mind when I think about politics. There's many a slip between cup and lip, but it looks as if we're going to win. It looks as if he'll be prime minister.

Do you still donate to Labour? Yeah, yes, I do, yes. Since Keir became, I've been giving money again. And, you know, you should put your money where your mouth is. I do talk about politics a little bit. So. So do you think that those are just intractable, intractable problems that nobody would be able to solve? Or is there a vague sense of disappointment that so far, Sir Keir Starmer's policies might not be bold enough to offer a solution to the problems. No, that's

not what I feel. I think he said a lot about the way he's going to handle things and he's quite frank about a number of things. You know, a lot of Labour Party people want him to change taxation and he has said taxation is not the, fiddling with

taxes is not the solution to our economic problems which i think has got to be right hasn't it um and so i think he's focused on the right thing focused on the economy uh so the general his general approach seems to me absolutely on the money you were a guest at the state banquet last week at the elise palace was it the elise or was it versailles it was Palace. Was it the Elysee or was it Versailles? It was actually the Palace of Versailles. It was, but the Palace. How gorgeous. And this was the French-British occasion.

Yes. What was it like? It was wonderful. I had such a great time. First of all, the place is full of interesting people to talk to. At dinner, I sat next to Bernard Arnault. He is the richest man in the world, officially the richest man in the world. And the first thing I said to him was,

thank you very much for giving 200 million euros for the rebuilding of Notre Dame de Paris, the cathedral that burned down. Now, I know he's a businessman, but what does he own? He owns a company called LVMH, Louis Vuitton Moet Hennessy, I think. It's all luxury goods, champagne and luxury goods. Yeah, okay.

So was he good company? He was very good company, yes. I mean, we talked about the cathedral and we talked about the wine. And the red wine was just fabulous. It was Chateau Mouton Rothschild, 2004, in double magnums. And, you know, we magnums, and we were

discussing it, and Arno pointed the cross at the table at one of the Rothschilds, I don't know his first name, and he said, oh, he brought the wine. He probably did. That's a rich person's joke, isn't it? Yes, it certainly is,

Ed. And I talked to, well, I was where there were sort of four of us in a line and i was sitting with hugh grant and his wife his name's anna and madame macron and the four of us talked a lot during the course do you have to do that funny thing where you talk to one person during the first course and then you everybody turns and talks to the other person well not everybody did it but I think it's a very polite thing to do. And occasionally somebody has failed to do that for me and I've been sitting there with nobody

and it's really embarrassing. So I think good manners means you should do that. So I did turn to Bill and Anna and then I turned back to Hugh Grant and his wife and Mrs. Macron, who's a bundle of fun. Now, I think we need to know a little bit more about her. Well, she's just very warm. And she was very nice to me.

We'd never met. The following day, there was an announcement with Queen Camilla and Brigitte Macron announcing a new literary prize an Anglo-French literary prize and I got there late traffic was terrible Versailles is a long way from central Paris

this was at the Bibliothèque Nationale and I got there late and because the royals had arrived before me the streets were all closed so I was ages getting into the place I got there late and because the royals had arrived before me, the streets were all closed. So I was ages getting into the place and I went in with this soaking wet umbrella and clearly looking dishevelled and really embarrassed to show up at something like this late.

And right where I, at the door I went in, there was a table with some ancient manuscripts on it that are owned by the library and several people looking at them, including Madame Macron. And I tried to scalp by, you know, feeling so embarrassed. And she said, oh, Ken. And she came round the table and shook hands with me and talked. I thought that was lovely.

Yes. You know, suddenly, instead of being so embarrassed and all that, suddenly everybody was looking and saying, who's he? Who the heck's he? He knows Brigitte. I would like to have a conversation with her. She does sound like she'd be a really good laugh. Yeah, I really would.

There's some more love coming in for you, Ken, if you can bear it. Andrew says, I bought the Pillars of the Earth at Gatwick. I opened the book as we took off and finished as we landed at Lax. Before this, I had never heard of ken follett lax los angeles yes yeah you say lax don't you i don't know you say lax well i say lax okay all right all right and don't fall out because you two are such good mates don't fall out we haven't really got time for the story about my date at the ritz with ken very generously paid for uh to give money to charity by a wonderful woman called...

Agent V. And Agent V, I still want to thank you for that. I think I have thanked you, but I'm thanking you again. Because it was lovely, Ken, actually. It was great. I really enjoyed it. The only trouble is I couldn't get you drunk. No, so many men have said that over the years. Ken Follett.

Gosh, he had an anecdote for every occasion, didn't he? Well, I didn't want him to stop. No. I wanted his anecdotes to be as long as his books. Yes, yes. 735 pages, The Armour of Light is. And it's just wonderful that he just knocked, he's met us this week and last week he was knocking about

at the same function as Brigitte Macron. And the richest man in the world. Nick Jagger, the richest man in the world. Hugh Grant. I mean, what a life. I did love that anecdote about the wine joke. Because it just wasn't funny. Well, it wasn't funny to us. But obviously, if you were there amongst that crowd, it was a bellyache.

Yes, take me through that gag again. So the richest man in the world, they were enjoying this fantastic red wine at this state banquet. So they were drinking a Chateau Mouton de Rothschild or whatever it is. I pretended I knew

what that was. And the old bloke who made an absolute shed load out of handbags Bernard made a joke about the fact that

they were drinking the wine that just happened to be from the bloke opposite's family. Who was one of the Rothschilds. Yeah, that's the joke. I don't think it would get you very far at the London Palladium.

At the Comedy Store. The Wheel Tappers and Shunters Club, as was. But certainly you're right, in that setting at Versailles, it went down an absolute storm. Oh, anyway, I thought Ken Follett was a really lovely man and incredibly easy to talk to. And for a man who has just conquered his art, hasn't he? I mean, that's nearly 200 million copies of his book sold.

Absolutely no airs and graces or pomposity. No, actually, you're right. He's delightfully pomposity free. Yeah. And actually, it does count. It means something, it's a winner with me, that kind of thing. His approach to life is cheerful and sometimes people who are really successful and frankly loaded are not that chipper. Ken is living the dream and he gives every impression that he's enjoying it. Yep, I enjoyed meeting him hugely. It's rather nice to be around, isn't it?

So, look, that was our refreshing man. And then we do have ladies for the rest of the week, don't we? We've got Rose Tremaine coming up on the programme tomorrow. And then Kate Humble. Yes. She's our guest on Thursday. So that'll be lovely too. So thank you for all of your contributions to what we call work.

Jane and Fi at Times.Radio if you want to email us about anything. We'll take your dull anecdotes within reason, I think, if that's okay. But I think what I'm saying is I went out for something quite dull and they weren't even available. I mean, that is boring, isn't it? That is the living definition of why adult life often doesn't live up to your adolescent fantasies but parts of it do well you speak for yourself um i just want to mention this lovely email from someone who says i liked that you i know you weren't around on the radio program yesterday but um i talked quite briefly actually about carol midgley's brilliant review of The Woman in the Wall, the programme about mother and baby homes and Magdalene laundries in Ireland. And Carol pointed out, and I've had the same experience,

that plenty of people have started watching The Woman in the Wall and then gave up because they just found it too much. Now, there were times I found it a bit much, if I'm honest. I nearly also gave it up. But slightly spurred on by a close friend of mine who's not unconnected to this whole experience, I was determined to finish it because I thought the central performance by Ruth Wilson was just astonishing. And it's a wonderful series. If you are sort of maybe at episode three or four

and thinking, oh no, I'm just finding it all, see it through because it's worth it. It really is worth it. It's brilliant. This listener says, I'm an Irish adoptee born in Merseyside in 1977. My mother was 16 and was sent over to live with her brother while she had me and was then sent back to Donegal and forgot all about the matter.

That programme, The Woman in the Wall, made me cry so much and I am not a crier. It has made me think that I should look for my birth mother. Well, I couldn't give you advice on that because I think that's a very personal decision. If you do go ahead with it, I wish you the very, very best. I really do. But not an easy journey to make because you just don't know.

You don't know what lies at the end of that particular experience, do you? No. But I wish you all the very best, and thank you for emailing, and I'm glad that programme... Well, if it did make you cry, I guess in a way, well, I hope, it was cathartic, and I really hope it leads to something for you. I have not forgotten you, Rachel. We started the episode with not going to Rachel's email,

and we're going to finish it with doing Rachel's email. He wanted to say a huge thank you with much appreciation for my 50th birthday message. Jane and I were very happy to do that. Rachel goes on to say my 40s have been rather challenging with nearly all of life's most stressful events squeezing themselves into one decade. So I was approaching 50 feeling a bit bedraggled but for my birthday dinner my fabulous friend Inge and I'm sorry if I've pronounced that correctly incorrectly Inge probably you're right made a podcast for me hosted by my two children aged 10 and 12 with lots of lovely messages from friends my dad sister and culminating in your message and my jaw literally hit the ground along with happy tears.

It really was the best birthday present ever. I've just finished an MA with distinction and a couple of awards. So I'm hoping to start a brand new career to go with this new decade in my life. Well, Jane and I wish you enormous amounts of luck with that. And what a fabulous point in time to make a big old gear change. Leave the rest of it behind you i hear what you're saying sister march into your 50s uh knowing that you are armed not with that ridiculous relentless positivity and optimism of youth but with uh probably quite a

realistic assessment of the bits that you're going to enjoy and the bits that you aren't and we hope we can keep you company for a long time to come. We do. Rachel, I'm really glad that you enjoyed the message. And just to say, we're very much very happy to do those messages for huge sums of money, which you can send. So everyone else is on Cameo doing them for money. Jane and I

are just bobbing along. Yeah, we'll do that for you, mate. No, no, but we're obviously very happy to do it in situations like that. And I'm really glad it hit the spot. Actually, can I just say, I mean, I was getting back to the earlier email from Wanda in Namibia about concern that perhaps at 49 that they haven't achieved enough or as much as they might have.

I've just got to be really honest about this. It just occurred to me. I have been more successful in my 50s than at any time in my life. I know, and you were the one who started off the whole you won't be successful after the age of 45 malarkey. Did I? Yes. When did I say that? Oh because we talked to Lisa Jewell. No I think I was mis... what I meant there was that it's if you haven't found your sweet spot of finding something that you are good at and that you enjoy at 45 chances are you might not. I was already doing what I enjoyed.

To be just brutally honest about it, I'm doing better at it in my 50s than at any other time. You're doing very well. God. Right, we squeeze that one out, everybody. Enjoy every second of it. We'll talk to you tomorrow. Goodbye.

And I'm sorry Ken said shag. I tried to stop him. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house

or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on off air very soon they'll be so silly running a bank i know lady lady listener sorry