Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Bottom medicine (with Sara Cox)

Episode Date: April 1, 2024

Happy Easter! Fi's back but Jane G is now off for a week (keep up!) so Fi and Jane M are here to keep you company this bank holiday Monday. They chat cling film, jet washing and ways France are getting it right. Plus, Jane Garvey spoke to Sara Cox last week about her new novel 'Way Back', which is out now. Our next book club pick has been announced - A Dutiful Boy by Mohsin Zaidi.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I went to meet a bunch of Mormon polygamists in Utah. Have you ever just done a council meeting? Yes. Difficulties with the planning application on the ring road. So let's get professional. Shuffle papers. Happy Easter, J. Moore Kerens. Happy Easter, Fiona.

So, this Fiona... Welcome back. Oh, God. Welcome back. It's always Fee. We'd have to start on kind of formal terms. It's your bank holiday names. It's it.

Okay. I still, to this day, get a slight tingle of fear when someone says Fiona. Because it's not, it's never been from a person who kind of knows me very well or it's about doing something wrong when it's Fiona. So would it be all right if it was Fi? I mean, unless you got a B for Wreck-It. It's only Monday. Happy Easter, Fi.

Is that better? Okay, good. That's much better alright so shall we explain what's happened yeah you go

you've done a week with Jane Garvey yep I imagine you feel a little bit like you're in a Scottish reel someone else has just come along

and right me now it's true stripping the willow yeah so you've got to do it with me now this week yeah I'm going to pretend to be Jane now

now she did ask which one of you I thought I was most like So, you've got to do it with me now this week. Yeah, I'm going to pretend to be Jane now. She did ask which one of you I thought I was most like and I chose to not answer that question. Gosh, that's a tricky question. There's no right answer. There is no right answer to that one. No, but I'm just going to do my best to be as Jane Garvey-esque as possible this week. What do you think Jane Garvey was hoping

the answer to that question was, Jane Little Karens? Again, I think there's just no right answer. I think she was just gently throwing me under the bus with that question. I think she was. I've suddenly got a visual image of a tomcat strolling around the garden, spraying the bushes. Mine.

Mine. Anyway, look, Jane's off on holiday and I hope she has a really, really lovely time. I don't think she's going, She's not going tropical, is she? No. No. I think she's gone to Liverpool for some of it. Okay.

Social media would have suggested. Unless she's trying to put us off her scent by just posting random pictures of Liverpool. Well, that would be quite canny, wouldn't it? It would be. Anyway, wherever she is, I hope she has a really, really lovely week. I did listen to two of your podcasts last week,

just to keep in the loop. And how does that feel? Oh, well, it's a bit uncomfortable because it does feel a little bit like work, which is just, you know, that sounds ruder than it should be. No, no. They're already entertaining and wonderful,

but I'm not quite a listener, if you know what I mean. Yeah, I do. So I do, but, you know, they make me laugh and I can understand why people do like listening to them. But it's quite odd as well. And then I just think, oh, I'd better remember that bit and I'd better remember that bit. Do you take notes ever?

No. No. No. Okay. But I do have two questions for you. And the first one, you referenced a lot of people at a sex party oh yes in was it in australia yeah who by the end of the evening were uh having a bit of an orgy in a corner of the room and using an awful lot of cling film yeah where were they putting the cling film um

or wrapping each other in it so they were wrapping themselves together yeah so people were wrapping each other in cling film and then apparently uh it heightens sensations so then they were performing various um moves on one another while covered in cling film yeah and then the next day after the orgy when sex camp was over actually drove two of the instructors from sex camp to the airport who were in an open relationship and managed to have a row in my car about how one of them hadn't invited the other one to engage in the wrapping of cling film around the other one. I just wish I'd had my tape recorder on

because it was probably one of the best interactions of my entire life this couple who were preaching open relationships had a scrap about the other one not knowing the other one might have wanted to be asked to be klim film wrapped while they were doing it with other people right i just think it just sounds incredibly unhygienic very very sweaty yeah sweaty. Yeah. And I was just... It was humid as well. Yeah. And I was just really wondering about, you know... Yes.

Well, anyway, let's not spend too much time... Has that answered that question? No, I think it has. Maybe raised more questions. No, I think it has. But subsequent question from that. Do you think that it is possible to have true open relationships? This is a really interesting topic because I think a lot of people are writing a lot about it at the moment um there's a woman called

molly winter who just released a book about it about her open relationship uh which has gone gangbusters and caused a lot of noise both here and america and i actually know her a little bit from new york and it's really interesting because I think she's written a really interesting book. But I don't believe that she is genuinely happy in her open relationship. I feel that there is a power disparity within it. And that there's a sort of sketch that I saw in the New Yorker about this kind of thing that said, Oh, congratulations on your open relationship now which one of you is it who decreed an open relationship and which one of it which one of you cries himself to sleep at night which I sort of think I haven't read anything yet

that's made me think there's another way but I did I actually wrote a book proposal about non-monogamy when I was in the US because I met so many people who were doing it. I never wrote the actual book. Covid came along and I had to do some work for money. But I do think people are trying to make it work. Whether people actually make it work or not, I think is another matter. Yeah, I think what we can definitely say for certain is that the old fashioned notion of together forever, one person for life monogamy is being rightly challenged and lots of people are finding other forms of genuine happiness, aren't they? But I think there's always something a bit problematic with anybody who then tells everybody else, what's that fantastic word? I can never say it,

proselytises. There you go. you go there you go um uh and the other question is about your university and well done because obviously you can pronounce it because you went to the good one but you know what i mean when when other people start preaching yeah to everybody else about you know their own choices that's the bit that i find difficult because i kind of think surely the thing that we've learned from monogamy not being the happiest way for an awful lot of people to survive is that we shouldn't be prescriptive. No, I think you do you, you know, I think, I do think that it is only a positive that other relationship models should be available and should be treated as

equally valid as monogamy because i do think there are people out there for whom committing to one person sexually just doesn't work but i just think we haven't quite got there yet where we've put everything else in play to support that. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes total sense. Yeah. So I think, you know, why should sexual monogamy be the thing that we basically put at the centre of the way we construct relationships? Because it's not the only thing. And I think lots of people I've met who are having non-monogamous relationships, they think about other things like raising children, running a household, you know, sort of forms of care as being more important than sexual fidelity

so I think but we haven't sort of psychologically or societally caught up with that yet we may never but going back to the point about the bloke who felt unhappy about not having the cling film his girlfriend didn't ask him if he wanted a wrap in cling film all of it also revolves around

changing the way that we deal with rejection yes very wise yeah yeah yeah because one of the things that inspired me to want to write about it more was that i went to meet a bunch of mormon polygamists in utah and obviously that's a patriarchal system so it's not totally equal because the men have multiple wives but the women don't have multiple partners. Have you ever just done a council meeting? Yes, at journalism school. Difficulties with the planning application on the ring road.

It doesn't get in the Times magazine. But I did go to Utah to meet these women. And they were fascinating. And actually, I came back thinking, well, I had lots of thoughts. The women looked amazing. These women who had had sort of 11 children looked amazing, and the men all looked knackered.

It was very funny. One of them kept his running kit in a little backpack as he moved between different households. But the women were amazing, even though, you know, they'd had 12 children or whatever. But one of the things I thought was, A, educate your girls, because a lot of what happened was these girls would get to 10 or 11, and they'd had 12 children or whatever. But one of the things I thought was, A, educate your girls, because a lot of what happened was these girls would get to 10 or 11 and they'd look after their younger siblings

and then they would themselves get married at 15 to other, you know, polygamous families, which I thought, you know, give them some options. But the other thing I thought was that a lot of what the polygamous sort of model was about was about overcoming feelings of rejection and possessiveness and fear of being replaced and jealousy and I sort of thought that's actually a very human and noble aim and of course they were doing it for reasons that they talk about in terms of religion and being closer to God but actually I sort of think that's a very noble aim for all of us to try and aim for,

whether or not that means open relationships or not, but just trying to overcome those quite basic human feelings, which are a bit ugly. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And I think there's something about an inability to deal with rejection that just really doesn't fit, I think, particularly with some of the stuff around masculinity. Absolutely. Absolutely. You need to be victorious in everything. You need to win.

You need to be out there coming first. You kind of need to be in control. You know, rejection is just the really dark underbelly of human life and those things aren't going to teach you anything about dealing with it. And certainly some of the worst cases that I've ever come across as a journalist of stalking come from rejection. And I'm not putting it all on men here because I think that female rejection can end up with some, you know, really, really unpleasant behaviour from women too. And some dreadful self-harm. So it's one thing we don't

talk about enough. Gosh, we've gone deep too soon. We really have. How was your week off before we go deep again oh do you know what it was so lovely joe i didn't go anywhere i just had lunch uh with a succession of uh people called lucy actually friends called lucy you haven't seen for a very long time lucy lunches yes lucy lunches so it was very nice to have a catch up i went swimming a lot because i do like to do my swimming and the sun has just started to shine on the pool so that becomes increasingly addictive and it was just nice to have a little bit of a potter and a poodle. I've changed some things around in the house.

Now you've recently moved, haven't you? So you've done a lot of furniture in different places. Yeah. Yeah. I also don't have a lot of furniture to move around. My parents were here this weekend saying, so what are you going to do with all those bags of things that are just there and those things in boxes?

And I said, yeah, I'll get some furniture. You should. Yeah. There's something very refreshing there, isn't there? Once you're sorted and settled and stuff and just moving furniture around. Oh, totally. Isn't it?

Changes your whole perspective. Yeah, it does, isn't it? I felt like I'd been somewhere. Just the living room. But the bookcase is on a different wall now and I've thinned out some bookshelves, which is immensely satisfying as well. And I just also

thought about throwing away a massive, massive pile of kind of novels and crime fiction that I'd read about 20 years ago. And I genuinely thought and I'm not making a joke about losing my memory at all, because I know that that's a serious thing 20 years ago and I genuinely thought um and I'm not making a joke about losing my memory at all because I know that that's a serious thing but I did look at them all and think no I could read those again and I really can't guarantee I know the endings hang on to those it's a slightly tight kind of view of my bookshelf thing uh should we do

some of the emails please yes before we do can I just ask yeah later this week can you please bring your David Niven book in because I've got a David Niven story I want to tell you. Have you? But I'm going to save it for bringing the book in. Okay. So we are going to do some readings. This is what Jane and I promised. We're going to do some readings. I think you did say you might not

do David Niven until she gets back but we won't tell her. No, we won't. Okay. I will definitely do that and would you like a copy of... You could have Michael Parkinson, Tony Blackburn, three of Chris Evans, or Simon Bates.

Can I have Parkey, please? Yes, you can have Parkey. You can do a little bit of reading. I think we should just bung the readings right at the end of the podcast. And maybe people have to guess who they are. We don't introduce it. We don't... We're not going to comment. We're not going to laugh. And maybe people have to guess who they are. Yeah. We don't introduce it. We just, we don't, you know, we're not going to comment.

We're not going to laugh. We're not going to poke fun. We'll just do a little reading at the end. Good night, everybody. Okay. Right, what you got? So I'd like to start with this lovely email from Charlotte, which actually sort of, sort of, not really,

it's a bit of a stretch, but sort of carries on from my talk about Utah. So Charlotte is, lives in Canada, the southern end of Vancouver Island. But this spring break has driven nearly 6,000 kilometres and camped in their truck every night. This is following on from my Land Rover Defender weekend in Southwold, which I was saying wasn't really wild camping

because we were on a nice campsite and we were in Southwold. You know, there were no lions or tigers. But Charlotte and her husband have a truck and yeah they basically have not spent a single night where they couldn't see or hear another human being the stars in the desert are just unbelievable she says and it brings me real joy to feel the first fingers of sunshine in the morning as i sit and make coffee just being forced to be outside all the time is really liberating you notice so much more birdsong you see the bats and hear the frogs and the crickets and the owls at night and you pay so much more attention to the air temperature and the angle of the sun she says i love the flexibility

of being able to follow the sunshine and go wherever we want to go without ever having to book anything our truck is a four-wheel drive and we just bounce off into the desert and find spots far away from everyone i love this she says we haven't had three we've had three showers in 14 days did you know you can shower at a truck stop i climb over the tailgate at 3 a.m to go and pee in a bucket she sounds quite quite adventurous we cook at the side of the road or wherever we happen to be camping we pack out everything including our poo and other people's rubbish we most often have to pick up bullet casings and old beer cans. She says, as a 56-year-old middle teacher originally from Wrexham, I find America a very weird and rather scary country,

but it is vast and beautiful and there is so much very empty space. I adore the freedom and the open spaces that wild camping affords. And I would just say, I agree with you entirely, Charlotte, and that is one of the things I miss a lot is the wild open spaces um yeah not so much the picking up bullet casings but definitely definitely the open spaces um I remember driving through Texas just you know in a massive open road

and seeing the most spectacular sunrises and sunsets I've ever seen in my life and just having to stop and pull over just to really admire these sunsets and sunrises and sunsets I've ever seen in my life. Just having to stop and pull over just to really admire these sunsets and sunrises in the high desert, which, yeah, just, it is a spectacular country for that. Enjoy it, Charlotte. Have you left a little bit of your heart in America? Oh, yeah, definitely. You can't live somewhere like that for nearly 11 years, I think,

and not feel, yeah, still very attached to it. God, I think some people can live somewhere for 11 years, come come back and never ever want to think about it or go there again do you think it'll lure you back not right now no and do you think it's politics have dirtied it too much for it to yeah kind of rectify itself I I have to say I would find living through another Trump election campaign very, very difficult to do. Really difficult to do. But you never say never. But I also think it's a big world. I do want

to live abroad again, but there are other places I'd like to live too. I had an adult pen pal called Anne who was a Republican supporter and Trump voter. It was actually for a series back at the other place, old mothership, don't really mention it, where there were six of us who had pen pals

who wrote to each other, all kinds of different people, Lem Cisse, Jim Al-Khalidi. It was really lovely, actually, and we had to write on proper pen and paper, so over the course of six months. And it was during trump's first term actually it may have been just as he was getting elected and you know what jane it was such a fantastic insight into uh what lies behind the superficial surface of our vision of america

because she was a lovely woman you know we were paired together because we had so much in common uh you know just talking about our kids and our work and transitions in and out of different phases of our lives. You know, it was a real pleasure to get to know her. And I remember her saying that what we don't understand in this country is the slightly kind of, the slightly prosaic and condescending nature of some of the Democrats. Yes, yeah. And we don't actually i think

that's something that is underreported a kind of under discussed in this country there's a kind of snobbery there isn't there in a country without a class system that intellectual elite takes the place of what we have as the establishment doesn't it yeah? Yeah. So she just said, you know, I live in a small town. I don't come from that kind of place. She couldn't stand Hillary Clinton. I know that you work with Hillary Clinton. But it was such an interesting insight. It was such an interesting insight.

She had so much warmth and love in her heart. I've got people I love who voted for Trump in 2016. Absolutely. Mostly in the South, I have to say. I'm not sure that they voted for him in 2020. But yeah, it's, yeah, I think the most important thing is to have open dialogue always, obviously.

I think some of the biggest problems in the last eight years that have come from people not being able to talk about it. Yeah, we'll talk about this during the week. And I also want to talk to you about guns as well in America. But let me do this one, which comes from Joanna, which is about your university education.

It was interesting to hear the other Jane. We must never, ever refer to you as the other Jane. It's fine. It's not. It's really fine. To hear Jane M talking about her time at Cambridge and Jane G's surprise that she hadn't mentioned it before. Now, Joanna says, I studied at Cambridge in the 1980s

and hardly any of my current friends know I went there. I've learned not to mention it, even when it would be relevant to do so because the response is rarely positive. In my experience, people either assume that I come from a wealthy, privileged background. Incorrect. I come from an ordinary family and I went to a local state school. B, that I'm really brainy.

Or C, that others just have a vague sense that all Oxbridge alumni are of a type, i.e. elitist snobs. To conclude, I've not found that my Cambridge education has hurt me any points in life. Socially, it's disadvantaged me. Work-wise, it's been irrelevant since, as the other Jane pointed out, what you've done in your career is always more important than what and where you studied having said that i learned a lot made some wonderful friends and enjoyed being in a very beautiful place for three years so no regrets well i'm happy to hear that and also that's interesting actually that you do just kind of stop mentioning where you go to university at a certain time of

your life i don't think i don't think most of my kind of mum friends would have any idea where I went to university. Or I don't think I've ever asked them. It just never comes up. No, it never comes up. For the record, I have to say, and I did say this last week, I'm very, very proud that I went there. And actually, interestingly, Joanna, I don't often get a negative response,

but I'm really interested in why you feel like it's socially disadvantaged you if you've got time can you ping us another email i'm really interested in that um i i just think it's not that important to me all my life it was a wonderful three years got lovely friends from there um yeah it's just not the most important thing in my life but you i think you knew about because you'd asked me before. I did ask you about it, yeah. And the thing, well, the thing that I can really remember

is that you were president of the drinking society. That is probably one of the most important things in my life. I was president of the drinking society at Newhall.

Good on you, girl. They don't have a drinking society anymore. Of course they don't. Which I'm very sad about. Yeah, that's a tragedy. That's been lost.

More importantly than my university education is the fact that I don't sad about. Yeah, that's a tragedy. That's been lost. More importantly than my university education is the fact that I don't have a colander, which has been picked up by several of our lovely listeners, including Nancy on Vashon Island in Western Australia. It makes her feel far less eccentric, she says, to hear that I don't have a colander either. I'm 64, says Nancy, and have been considering this purchase for ages,

but never quite get around to it. Maybe I'll treat myself to a connoisseur and a toaster that pops up by itself when I retire so I don't have a toaster either or a microwave. I don't have a telly either. All of which became very apparent this weekend when my parents came to stay. All of which were commented on.

I actually, I do have an inside toilet, everyone. I don't actually live in a barn. Okay, but you've just admitted you don't really have any furniture either Is this state of affairs for Karens? Back to basics in Brighton

No I actually do live in a really nice flat and I do have some nice furniture just not a lot OK Are we going to have to utensil crowd fund you? I don't want a colander

I'm going to find there's another great email about draining of vegetables and how you don't need a colander as well people in support and I don't want a colander. I'm going to find there's another great email about draining of vegetables and how you don't need a colander as well. People in support. And I don't need a toaster because I don't taste very many things and I don't need a microwave

because, well, there's a lot of emails about Jackie Potatoes. It's really got you all going, which I'm thrilled by. I could not be more thrilled by how potatoes have got people excited. Do you want to do that as a spin-off podcast? The potato podcast?

Yes, I think so. I'm not sure that I've got very much... Podgy-like. ...kind of ammunition on the potato. But you keep going, aren't you? Maybe it's Jane and I's Irish roots. I think it might be, yeah. This one comes from Sophie

and it's very long and detailed and absolutely fantastic, but I'm going to join you, if that's all right at paragraph five moving on to suppositories I can confirm that they do act to reduce pain and fever much faster than tablets or syrup I've never understood the English squeamishness about these magic bullets perhaps because my mother is French both my children are now in their 20s but when they were babies it was much easier to pop in a suppository whilst changing a nappy than to squirt Calpol into the moving target of their mouth. They never felt a thing and the results were instantaneous. It became harder once they were out of nappies,

but I could always gauge how ill they felt by their willingness to have bottom medicine. I just love that. If they agreed to have it, it meant they were properly sick. Suppositories were top of our shopping list whenever we went to France. Ever increasing in size as the babies grew, the French are far more specific about dosage than we are. If Eve doesn't call this episode Bottom Medicine, I'll be very surprised.

It's just fantastic. I've never, I never gave my kids suppositories. I didn't even know that you could do that. I wouldn't even buy them. I wouldn't know where to buy a suppository. And I'm quite worldly, according to Jane Garvey. Do you know what? I'm so drawn to France at the moment.

No, I really am. They really seem to have, they've really nailed the big things and now they're really nailing the small things. So the 35-hour working week. I hope they're small things. Well, they're obviously getting, they'd be a huge buy our age, wouldn't they?

They're trying to get a four-day week for divorced parents through Parliament at the moment, which is designed specifically to try and get dads more involved in their kids' lives. So they're thinking if they offer them a day off, they will get a little bit more hands-on with the childcare. It's a great idea. It is a good idea, actually.

And I think all of the stuff that they've done to try and curb the spread of technology as well is really world-leading stuff. And now they're putting little bits of medicine up the bottom. So, Sophie, thank you very much indeed for that. Good to know. I would like to read this from Katie Ward. Katie Ward in Hackney

who picks up on, she said she's been listening to you guys for 30 years. Onwards to the more serious channel. Thanks for all of it she says. Nothing has been so poignant as listening to the lady with the inherited cling film. This is Christine, 77 year old Christineold Christine, who started the cling film chat last week by talking about how she'd been left 400 metres of cling film by her mother.

Katie says, I too have 400 metres of inherited cling film from Costco, a shop I've never been to but my late mum very much enjoyed before becoming too unwell to look after herself. I also have inherited packs of new yellow dusters from costco which may not get used and a meal cat and dog hoover which is occasionally brought out i think you'd like one of those have you got one of those a meal cat and dog hoover m-i-e-l-e oh i see i thought you meant just to clean up after them no no not just have the wheels um katie says i'm 51 and i've written my will already but i may well amend it to give my younger sister these items as I suspect she never took them from my late parents

house as she's more together than me with respect to housekeeping and has her own cling film and dusters Katie also says I've inherited a jet washer from my dad which I love using and always think about him when I'm jet washing I'm not sure if that means I loved him more than her or just that jet washing is much more fun than wrapping leftovers and dusting. I did some jet washing this weekend with my dad. I've got a power washer. God, it's fun. Right, ladies and gentlemen, she's not got a toaster. She's not got any furniture. She's not got a colander. She's got a jet washer. A jet washer. Yeah. Well, it is very satisfying. It's so satisfying. So I moved to my new flat in Brighton in August, I think, last year.

And, you know, I had 10 minutes of summer and then it's been raining ever since. And there's a path out the back of my kitchen before you get to some sort of amazing outdoor bunkers. And I thought that the layer of dirt was just maybe one winter, maybe two winters. It's about 400 years of dirt out there, which when we got the jet washer on, it started kicking up.

I had to wear not just wellies, but like a full waterproof outfit with a hood up because there was so much dirt coming up. God, I hope you did before and after pictures. Do you know what I didn't? Missed opportunity to go viral. So we jet washed multiple times. Then we washed everything down

with an algae, algon, to get rid of algae. I left my parents still doing like another, another rinse of things. I should say, jet washers,

so much more satisfying. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Where have they come in from for this? Near York. Okay, so they've travelled all the way from York to jet wash your patio.

I also took them to NEP to look at stalks yesterday. And I took them out for a lovely Sunday lunch and a lovely dinner. But mainly I've made them scrub things, yeah. They enjoy it. And where are you going this week? I'm going to Brixton. I'm sending them on a little holiday to the Canberra Sands.

Oh, that's lovely. That will be very nice. It'll be a bit wet and rainy this week, but it's still beautiful. But they'll have a nice time and they won't have to jet wash anything. I think a jet washer is a lovely thing to leave somebody in your world. I agree.

And actually, I think it's a rich theme that our listeners will probably have lots of anecdotage about because I think those kind of small things or rather random things, they come to mean so much more than maybe a bigger legacy or you know the family painting or whatever it is and i have kept my dad's stapler and his hole punch so they're on my desk i use them nearly every day they just bring me so much joy and they

are you know they're just there's nothing special about them at all. But because I know that they were in exactly the same place on his desk and he used them every day. That's just so meaningful. It's so much more meaningful than, you know, whatever bigger thing it might have been. So more of those tales of jet washers. And to be honest, if anybody's inherited a colander

and they're not really using it, I think we know somebody who could do with it. Right. Do you think we ought to head off into Sarah Cox? Because I've got to go. What have I got to go and do? I've got to go and do an Ed Vasey trail and a quiz. Haven't I?

I'm a little bit nervous about this. Can I just very, very quickly, though, say thank you to Nicky because Nicky is loving A Dutiful Boy, spent the bank holiday weekend reading it, a lovely glimpse into someone else's life. I was willing him on, fluid style, fast paced, just a joy. And Nicky says, I'm very glad as this book, I'm very glad this was chosen, as I wouldn't have come across this book before I was taken to the memoir section of the bookshop to find it. I was taken to the memoir section of the bookshop to find it. So that is Book Club book number five, and we will be discussing that in a couple of weeks' time, so don't worry if you haven't read it yet. Right, Sarah Cox got her start hosting the girly show for Channel 4. She moved up to become one of Radio 1's leading ladylights

alongside Zoe Ball in the 1990s. These days, you can hear her on the Radio 2 Drive Time show, as well as presenting BBC Two's book show Between the 1990s. These days, you can hear her on the Radio 2 Drive Time show, as well as presenting BBC Two's book show Between the Covers. Now, she's already written a best-selling memoir and a novel that did feature me and Jane as some rather doolally police officers. And now she's published her third book. It's called Way Back, and it follows Josie, a middle-aged woman whose marriage comes to a natural end. so she decides to up and move back to her old family farm in Lancashire. Jane did this interview last week and she started off

by asking Sarah where she finds the time to write. Early morning, I guess, is good. Yeah, is it though? How early? So, I mean, the thing is with writing a book, if I'm honest, is that it's just whatever you're doing, you're not writing. And that's the problem. So every other aspect of your life, whether it's hanging out with the kids or walking the dogs or up at my horse, I'm aware that I'm not writing in that moment. And does that make you tense?

Yeah. And basically, I've got at least seven new wrinkles with each book. So hopefully in a few novels time, I'll just be sat here like a little walnut with some blonde fringing on. But yeah, so my lovely friend, Annie McManus, who is one of my best mates, and she was like, I won't do the accent, but she's like, babe, you've got to write in the morning.

And then everything else is a treat. And she was right. So to write early doors for a couple of hours and then go and ride my horse and then go to the radio is a dreamy sort of way to do it. That's a lovely, lovely lifestyle. It's very lovely. The only bit that ruins it is that my horse is 28 minutes away

on the M1, Junction 6. So that's the only bit that's not quite as good but it's good when i'm doing between the covers because i listen to lots of audiobooks on the drive so that's quite handy but yeah otherwise early morning is good and david nichols who said to me right you know author of um of one day obviously said uh get a thousand words down a day. Is that the target? That's what he does. At least a thousand a day. And even if you delete them all, even if they're rubbish,

just do a thousand a day and that gets you into the rhythm then. So I know I'm obsessed with this, but when you say write early, do you set the alarm for five? Is it half five? How early is this? Well, I'll have to do a deal with my husband

to get the teens up and out of the house. So it's easier than when they were little. They can kind of feed and wash themselves a bit now. So I will do a bit of a deal and maybe try and get pad down. I'm very lucky I've got an office in the garden that my husband works from and I'll go in there so I can buy post-it notes and coffee and maybe do from sort of like six till eight or something.

OK. I'm only asking this because there are loads of people who think they might have a novel in them yeah but don't understand the practicalities and how you actually go about it so i think that's really good advice thank you yeah i think i think first thing your brain is much fresher and also there's something about the atmosphere that early in the morning there's that sort of secret world feeling where you're up before other people and you're being active and creative at that time there's still a calmness about the day before everything grinds into action it might even be a bit earlier sometimes when i go in there but i've read i've heard of authors who were getting up at who were going writing at 4am

is it maggie o'fowl i think yeah I think it might be. Right, it gets up at half three. What's she ever done? I know! Apart from a few incredible award-winning novels. Well, thanks to you, actually. I heard you talking about Maggie O'Fowl, and I think you and Fi interviewed her, and that's when I started my exploration

into all her back catalogue, so it's her and John Boyne that I'm working my way through now. OK, well, that's always a good tip, because people love to hear what other writers love to read and that's that's really significant so Way Back is um it's a kind of can I put it like it's like a middle-aged woman's fantasy a bit yeah I'm living vicariously through Josie aren't I've created a character that can do things that I can't okay well that's what I was going to ask so um what is it about so I grew up in the northwest of, that's what I was going to ask. So what is it about... So I grew up in the north-west of England as well.

Now I feel I'm rooted in London. But reading this, I was actually thinking, am I, though? So tell me about your own feelings about what are you, where are you from, where might you go? So I'm from Bolton. If you were to cut me open like a stick of rock, the north would be written through my very centre

but I've lived in London for longer than I ever lived up North I've been down here for sort of 28 years now and my husband's from Hampstead I know, I did very well I married up basically I dragged myself up don't say that I'm joking of course, he married up, babe. But so I live in

northwest London. I love London. It's my it's really does feel like my home. All my children were born in London. But there is at my real core a need to have more space and to get out of London. And I would love I always thought of the five love, I always thought, out of the five kids, I always thought I'd be the one who would end up farming or would be either have my own farm or farm with my farmer husband. And, you know, I just thought I'd be making butters at hair making time and up in the lambing sheds and things. And it never happened because I fell into this crazy business.

We go, I'll show. And that's gone really well touch wood thrilled but really I would love to have some space and a bit of land and have my horse on there that's kind of the dream and even more dogs and cats and furry things running around but I don't know if it's going to happen it is I would I would love it to happen once the kids are bigger. So my youngest is 14. If she goes off to uni at 18, I'm kind of thinking in a few years, you know. I mean, if you were to thrust me in the middle of Cumbria on a proper working farm,

I'd probably crumble within hours. I think it's, you always, you know, grass is always greener. Yeah. Would you, do you think, be found out if you were to do the proper stuff? Yeah, I mean, I think if I was to go and start a herd of Herefords, I think I'd find it pretty tough. Although they're very gentle cattle. Yeah, no, you sold Hereford cattle to me in the book.

Have you got one now when you're back out? Yeah, you're thinking of a pig. I know, I do sell the pigs quite well in this. They come across as lovely, caring, snuggly creatures. Yes, of course. And I'm not that keen on bacon and I'm not keen on bacon now. Do you eat meat? I do, yeah.

Yeah, I do. And I've had, you know, I've been quite flexy over the years, but I do eat meat and I do, you know, I'm a big supporter of British farmers. And, you know, because I feel like I grew up watching my dad and the respect that he had for his animals and the love that he had for them and how well they were cared for. It is, I was listening to a woman who's been organising a farmer's protest

just very recently, today I heard her, and it's tough for farmers at the moment, isn't it? Yeah, they're really squeezed from all ends, really. And it's a vocation, you don't really, unless you're landed gentry, you can't really go into farming to make a mint. You do it because you love it and it's in your blood or it's a passion of yours. And, you know, they do work incredibly hard

and there's no, you know, I heard someone say the other day that, you know, you get up and you farm and you farm until the sun sets. And then it was like, and then some, do you know what I mean? Have you farm and you farm and until the sun sets and then it was that and then some do you know what i mean have you seen the headlights they've got on a combine now you know they keep going until is that the job's done yeah what was your dad's working day was it up at dawn's crack and then yeah so so uh the he was never he did he's never had dairy cattle in fact tell her like i think he had dairy cattle way before i was born maybe in the in the late 60s but he had herefords and he in the 70s he had pigs and then i think the

the bottom fell out of the pig market in the late 70s and he had it was the 70s so he had hens he had laying hens they were battery hens and i wrote quite a bit about that in fact that gets a mention in way back because her dad had hen sheds as well and so it was full-on there's always something needs feeding something needs fixing uh you know there's always something that's ill and it's uh it's a non-stop a non-stop uh merry-go-round of toil if you're a farmer. But there's lovely moments in there, but it's really hard work. We don't want to pretend that radio's easy. I mean, I'm putting in a three-hour shift now.

I know. It's tough. I mean, I get there. Somebody fetches me a coffee, and I just think... But it's not always right, the coffee, is it? The tea here is bloody awful, by the way. So, no, we mustn't underestimate the sheer pain of it. Actually, we've just got to honour the fact, and I know you'll agree with me,

it's one of the best and easiest jobs in the world. It's the best job in the world. If you can do it, you can just crack on with it. It's fantastic. It's the best job in the world. So we don't believe working in radio is hard. Let's just make that very clear. So nobody snips out that bit.

So nobody can use that. I mean, you get cancelled together, though. At least we can go out together in a blaze. Go down with Sarah. It'll be all right. Yeah, you can take her. I liked about this book. I liked a lot about it.

But I love the fact that the couple who were splitting up at the very start, Josie's marriage is ending. Yes. She's been with this fellow called James for quite some time. They've got a daughter. And there isn't an enormous amount of animosity. They have just, they've outgrown each other, haven't they? They've outgrown each other, yeah.

And they've just, they've sort of fallen out of love. But they still love each other, but they're just not in love anymore. And they've just changed and grown apart. So, you know, I feel like a lot of women find themselves in that situation. A lot of women find themselves in that situation. A lot of couples find themselves in that situation. And they've tried to fix it, but it's just, you know,

the marriage is slowly just slumped off a cliff edge, like a cottage into the sea, I think they say. Okay, it's environmental damage. So do you think that's actually perhaps more typical? Because I've read loads of books where there's real rage going on between the woman and the man and things are absolutely toxic beyond belief. But perhaps it's just more realistic to paint a portrait of a couple

who could probably do all right without each other. Yeah, I think that's... I wanted to write a breakup that was a bit more amicable and a bit less dramatic and just a bit more what happens. Also, I needed a way for... What happens with Josie in the book is that things are changing around her and she feels a little bit like she's treading water, so I needed a way of her being by herself.

So the marriage ends, her best friend gets a huge work opportunity, her daughter who was at uni is really flying the nest for good and is exploring the start of her career and I feel like Josie has sort of stood there like, OK, what about me? I'm a bit left behind. And we probably should say that she had given up her job, hadn't she? She was a high flyer. Yeah, and she's really brave, Josie, I think.

I think she had a really tough childhood with a very tricksy mum. Her dad died when she was 12 and her life completely changed in that moment and in the weeks after his death and forevermore. And she got herself through university with no support and got a great career in finance and worked in New York and then she found love with James and I think all of this is part of her running away from her past

where she's like, ding, I have the career. No, I've got the successful great husband, the nice house, the child, you know. But what about me? Yeah, she threw herself into motherhood and now she's like... So there's parallels with me and Josie, but, you know, obviously I've never given up work. I'm still schlepping around. No, but that... I mean, I haven't either, really, apart from a couple of...

I mean, I'd go crazy. I'd go crack as if I didn't work. I think I would, but you might, and I don't want you to know names, I know you won't, but you must know women around the Hampstead area who are in exactly Josie's position. Yeah, I do, and actually one of my best friends, and she wouldn't mind me saying this, she stopped, she got a great degree,

she was all set up for work in the finance industry, and she stopped for her three kids, and she brought her three kids up. Now, I met her when our youngest I mean our youngest are now uh sort of 14 15 and I met her when they when they were about you know four or tiny and she credits me a little bit with inspiring her to get to start her career again which she did she went into charity work and now she has got an amazing job um in investment banking now her kids are at uni and at college yeah because she's gone back to that and that did inspire a little bit with Josie

like how does that feel in fact I actually messaged her a couple of times going if you did go back what would you do you know to try and work it out but she you know i think a lot of women do that and that's great it's just i wasn't really i wasn't financially in a position where i had um a husband supporting me really and i also think you know when you're in a job that like we say is creative and enjoyable then there's a whole different kettle of fish yeah and i was listening to you on the day that the death of steve wright was announced yeah and i thought it was a really tough that was a tough one for you wasn't it and it must have been for everyone yeah it was awful i mean it was it was awful because we're on air and we i knew a little ahead of time by literally by an hour and we had to because obviously we

then had to change our show from when the news was going to be announced at five o'clock, I'm on air from four, so we had to change all the music. We got Anthony in, who's Steve's producer and known him for years, and he came in and told us all of Steve's favourite songs, the artists that he absolutely loved that he'd interviewed countless times, so we got all the music ready. And then I just wrote in my phone a few words and it was a

real in those moments it's it's hard to describe you don't want to say it's an honor because that that sounds silly but you do want to be there for your listeners and you wanted I wanted to do Steve Proud as well so I just wanted to do a good job and to hold it together but make no mistake we were all absolutely shook and i think we all i think we're all still processing it and we all keep remembering that he's gone because he was such a huge part but he wasn't he wasn't a close personal mate of mine i didn't have his mobile a lot of the d a lot of the djs did they've said that i didn't but i was the same as the listeners where we've been part of our lives for so long. Like from when we were in the car as kids.

And then driving our own kids around, like for generations. And I was on air and there's people hugging outside the studio and there's people crying. It was a really awful day. We were completely winded by it. We, nobody, we weren't expecting it at all. No, and there is that, I mean, funny enough, I had a feeling, I must have been on holiday or something quite recently on a Friday afternoon and I thought, oh, Friday afternoon, it's serious.

And then I went, oh, no, but it isn't. Yeah, I know. Oh. Which is ludicrous. Obviously, I knew he died. Yeah, but you keep... You're right, you kind of keep remembering. It's that thing where you keep going,

oh, it's not, you know, same Sunday love songs, you know, nine o'clock on a Sunday morning. And so, you know, it was just, it was just, it was just, it's just really sad. Because he was, he was young. He was young by today's standards. So where you are turning, you're not 50, are you? You're 14.

I'm 15 December. Oh, yeah. That's a reassuring noise, Jake. Thanks, babe. Listen, I'm 60 in June, so forget it. It's a privilege. It's a privilege to get older because I've lost people who are younger. And you're right.

I wish more people said that. Yes. And I've gone through a stage where I now refuse to answer questions in magazines. When people read interviews in magazines, I'm sure lots of people know the reason why we have to do it is because we have to promote things.

And often in your contract, you've got to talk to this magazine and that. And you do interviews, you bang on about yourself. And if I get asked about how I feel about turning 50 and about what bits of my body... I mean, back in the day, they'd ask me my weight, they'd ask me my measurements.

I mean, how triggering is that for people? I mean, it's ridiculous. It's like I'm a heifer being sold down the cattle sales. Are you joking? And now when... Especially with female journalists, journalists well with both actually I will say do you ask that of men and when I've when I've said it to men they've been quite defensive and when I've said it to female journalists this one woman went oh my gosh actually I don't think

I do ask men as much about it and then one woman once went it was my actually it was my male editor who put that question in at the last minute about turning 50 how i feel and the answer always is now you know well firstly i'm like do you ask anton deck that do you ask dermot that would you ask a middle-aged bloke do you use viagra yeah exactly that's the question it's basically that yeah so i've lost people in their 40s i've no people who have left behind small children. And so it's an absolute privilege to age. And I'm thrilled to be turning 50 in December. I had a not 50 party December,

which has gone me far. Did you? Which was incredible. So I don't know what I'll do for my 50th, yeah. I had a Dolly Parton impersonator. It was amazing. Oh, did you? Yeah, she was incredible.

What was the name? At least four people. She's called The Dolly Show. She's the best one. It was amazing. Oh, did you? Yeah, she was incredible. What was the name? At least four people. She's called The Dolly Show. She's the best one. She's brilliant. And quite a few people thought it was the actual Dolly part and thought I'd dropped a cool

like two million on my part in my local pub. I mean, that'd be mate rates as well, wouldn't it? Sarah Cox and her book is out now. It's called Way Back and it was Jane G

asking the questions. Jane Garvey is back next week, but I am thrilled to be able to present the podcast this week with Jane Mulkerran's never-to-be-referred-to as the other Jane. And we are taking your emails then about strange things left in wills. I'd like to hear some tales also from the wilderness.

I love those stories. Absolutely. More about camping wild and maybe weird places you've weed what you have to pick up as rubbish any of that that involves suppositories as well

yeah that'd be good that'd be a lovely combination lovely stuff Jane and Fi at Time Stop Radio okay the Vasey Beckons well you're not going to do a little reading a quick reading

was I going to do a quick reading are we going to leave that for tomorrow i'm going to leave that we haven't brought any reading with us brought the reading with us okay so that'll be tomorrow nothing gets past her Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio.

It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run. Or running a bank. Thank you for joining us, and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies.

A lady listener. I know, sorry.