Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Bring back Eve! (with David Olusoga)

Episode Date: September 12, 2024

Jane and Fi have a supply teacher producer situation today and they're just not used to this kind of discipline - but they still manage to chat about why you don't see daytime ghosts, the multi 'talented' King Henry the 8th and whether plays within plays are any good.They also ask the big question: Do you throw your own? (Knickers)They're also joined by David Olusoga, who speaks about his new book 'Black History for Every Day of the Year' which he wrote with his siblings, Yinka and Kemi Olusoga.Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So this email from Marie who is a Geordie is entitled, and I'm going to say it in my very very best, very very best, Home Counties accent, Howay Pet. The only person who bangs on about being a Geordie is Sting, okay and maybe Ant and Dec, keeping it light. Love the show Marie. So there you go. I'm sure lots of people from the North East are very proud of their region and do inform you of that, but it's just one of those funny things that down in the South, I don't think, people very rarely open a conversation with their geographical identity. No, but if you meet someone who's from the same place as you, it doesn't matter where that place is, there's always a sharpening of interest, isn't there?

Yes, but you see, I think people who... And I don't want to just say the south of England because that's ridiculous. I think a lot of people don't put it into the conversation where they're from Whereas I mean the funny thing about the about the Liverpool thing is that? It does front foot itself as an identity amongst no no definitely Because I don't really want to have a row about this because it's not one of the things that I guess very deeply about There is a whole chapter on this in our book. There is actually. It's still available. Did I say that out loud? I tell you what, in time for Christmas. Oh yeah!

I mean it's not dated, it's not age, timeless, timeless classic. I would say it hadn't dated and the audiobook is genuinely quite good. So think of it as a gift for a friend or one to yourself. Here's one from Ariel who just says, speaking of listening to your podcast whilst falling asleep, usually I listen to you whilst having my morning run but last night I thought I would try you as a sleep aid. Whilst nodding off and in that half-asleep, half-awake stage, I was jolted awake by Linda De Plante's impression of a ghost and I will never ever listen to you at night again.

Right, Ariel, that has taught you a savage lesson. I think Linda was actually impersonating a radio version of Wuthering Heights that her late grandmother was listening to in her room last thing at night. But nevertheless, I agree with you, it was very frightening. So if that did jog other people into consciousness when they didn't want it, I can only apologize. I would love to hear more about daytime ghosts. Well, they don't. They just don't come out very often, do they? That's why they wear sheets.

Sorry? That's why they wear sheets. This is Rosie in the background today. Well, do they wear sheets? Do they take sheets off the bed to wear at night? I think the cartoon version of the ghost is a sheet, isn't it? It always has a sheet on. Well, they always did in Scooby-Doo. That's where I'm taking most of my factual knowledge from these days. They weren't only ever in fairgrounds.

I really did hate Scooby-Doo. Oh, I hate fairgrounds as well. Yeah, I'm not keen on fairgrounds, but a particular low did hate Scooby-Doo. Oh, I hate fairgrounds as well. Yeah, I'm not keen on fairgrounds but a particular low thing for Scooby-Doo with the bell-bottom trousers and the terrible, was it shaggy? Yeah. Oh, I liked Scooby-Doo. Now, we were both out and about last night at Glittering Events. You were at a book launch. I was at Louise Minchin's book launch and it was really lovely. I don't

often go out during the week because I just find myself a little bit too tired but I like Louise very much so I popped along and yes there was much reverie so she's got her first novel out at the moment and in fact she's probably going to appear on the podcast so we'll have plenty to talk to her about then. It's set in a reality TV show and obviously she's attended one herself But it was a real She was in I'm a celebrity get me out of here. Was she? Yes, she was. Okay, right. Oh, and she must have done strictly Has she done strictly? Yeah, she must have done strictly. I don't know. No, I don't think she has Anyway, we'll find out. Yeah, but it was a it was a proper

has. Anyway we'll find out. But it was a proper, you know, razzle-dazzle. The diarists were there and the snappy cameras and stuff, not aimed in my direction at all. Sorry, I said no. It was a given. It really was. But yes, it was very nice. It felt very, very glitzy glam. And you were attending a theatre production about an Australian penal colony. Yes it's the new one at the Lyric Theatre in East West Kensington, known and loved by all. Claire Balding was there, Alice was there, Alice Arnold, her wife. So the glitterati were out, very much so, in East West Kensington, otherwise known as Hammersmith, to some people. And it was Our Country's Good, which is, I think, a set text, which is why there are probably more than a couple of productions of this play that crop up quite regularly.

But you know what, I honestly knew nothing about this play. It was only written in 1988 by a woman. So her name is Timberlake Wurtenbaker. And I had assumed it was A Long Dead Man. It is in fact written by a woman who so her name is Timberlake Wurtenbaker, and I had assumed it was a long-dead man. It is in fact written by a woman who's very much alive and it is about the very first stage play ever put on in Australia in the 18th century by a group of Royal Marines and convicts. Stop anytime. But did you, did you just carry on? Did you know that that happened?

No, no, I didn't know either. It did make me, first of all, I think, what do you think of the concept of a play within a play? It's a little bit meta, but I quite like it when there's a book within a book, so I'll be hypocritical to say I don't like it. Oh, okay. I'm not keen about on plays within plays, and I went with a friend who's sort of in

the showbiz world and she pointed out that they're very hard to do well because the acting in the play has to be rather different from the acting in the play within the play. Yes. So, and you have to be an extremely good actor to carry off not being so good in the play you're putting on in the play. Yeah. So it was, yeah, it blew my mind. I'd had a double gin and tonic which helped. Rosie, could I have one now? All I'll say is, and I really do mean this, don't get sent to Australia for stealing a

biscuit if you can possibly help it. Those times have gone. Oh my god, those times were, in all seriousness, it has made me think, God, what were they thinking of? Breaking news. Yeah? Louise Minchin has not been on Strictly, but she has teased a comeback to television. She says she would love to do Race Across the World. OK, so Louise Minchin doing Race Across the World, Celebrity Race Across the World,

which I'm really hooked on this season. I think it's really good. I just didn't understand why people were wanging on about it before, but it's a really lovely combination of relationship drama and facts about people who you don't... I think they've chosen the celebrities very well. It's people who you don't know too much about already. And then just this astonishing scenery across South America. So they've gone from Brazil, they've touched on Uruguay, Paraguay, they went to Argentina, they're going all the way back up to Chile. It's just mind-boggling, the places that they go through.

I think it's so clever. But you couldn't have Louise Minchin doing that because she's such a triathlete champion. I mean, she's a proper, proper triathlete champion. So she wouldn't even need a bus. She would literally just head off with a great big rucksack and she would just jog on and she'd win it with no bother at all. So I don't think she'd be allowed to do that. I wonder who gets disregarded from celebrity race across the world because it is quite a challenging thing. Do you have to drive? No so you're not allowed to drive. Oh you're not allowed to drive? So you don't have a phone and you only have a certain amount of money you

don't have credit cards and so the most used form of transport. But you have got a film crew with you? You've got one producer with you, probably on a handheld. But you can tell that the producer isn't really intrusive because people are genuinely being themselves. I think it's really, really lovely TV, Jane. I really like it. And most of the travel is done on these huge overnight buses. You know, people are doing so Kelly Brooke and her husband they're great value

they're great great TV value those two and they seem to have ended up doing more bus journeys than anybody else and she said it's basically because they're kind of 14 18 hour bus journeys and she said imagine it's like going to Australia every couple of days committing to these huge bus journeys all the way through and the fact that they're all still sane, although I think Scott Mills is a bit frazzled round the edges, I think Scott Mills realised about two days into that programme that it was actually great just being a DJ.

Well, as we both know, it is. It is. And Scott, I'm with you on that feeling, darling. Right, this one comes in from Glyn. We just love Glyn. I'm going off on a bit of a tangent to your discussion of statues that don't look like the person they're supposed to be, but has anyone else noticed that Elon Musk is a double of Liza Minnelli's late comedy husband David Guest? I'm wondering if Musk is an AI generated clone

of Guest. Could your tech chappy Chris Stoker walk it investigate I'm sure he'd be delighted to and fascinating detail to add have I imagined that Martine McCutcheon was a bridesmaid at Manelli and guests wedding after having only met Liza Manelli for the first time the week before I've tried googling but to no avail blessed be the fruit. Oh she was. Well I didn't know that she didn't know them. You are just terrific. I'm surprised. I'm surprised that that fact is not available on the Google. I hope it's not been removed by people at any great cost. And you've included a picture of David Guest and Liza Minnelli. And actually, it is quite strikingly similar

to Elon Musk. I mean, it really is. Look, there's Elon. Yeah. And there's David Gu Musk. I mean it really is. Look, there's Elon, and there's David Guest. I mean, squint. Separated at birth. Yep, squint and they're the same person. Could they be related? Possibly. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch. I don't know. We could look into it. Have we got a spare moment this afternoon? Am I wrong in thinking that David Guest may not have been, I mean, married a lady, but he may not have been a committed heterosexual that he may have... am I up the bucket? I don't know, what am I saying? I'm not that committed a heterosexual myself, I need to make clear. What would you say to that?

Well, I would say it's never too late to get back in the game and I would say, would you say that live on air? I would say there are these things in showbiz, what did they used to call them? Lavender marriages. Right. Yeah, and I don't know whether Liza Minnelli perhaps, I mean she was genuinely, gosh, she was talented, but I mean troubled is the word, isn't it? It may very possibly be that David Guest was involved in an arrangement with her. He wasn't, he didn't have any money. Is he dead? He's long dead, and well relatively long dead, a couple of years ago, so we're fine.

She was world famous and who was he? A well comedy husband to Glyn. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. Let's move on very swiftly to Sarah who's in Chicago. We love our American listeners and we love them a lot at the moment. We just want to know how you're all doing, how you're all feeling about the coming, is it eight weeks now? It's November the 5th and we are on September the 12th. Okay so lots going on, keep us abreast. Six weeks away? Yeah what you're

hearing and feeling. Your interview with David Hepworth couldn't have come at a better time. Now David was on on Monday's program and on Monday's edition of Off Air talking about his book about, what was the title of that? Hope I Die? Hope I Die Before I Get Old. Yeah and it was about aging by rock stars never retire. Yeah and Sarah saw Tom Jones live on Saturday night, and Tom Jones is 84. Sarah says he was genuinely brilliant. His voice is as good as it was when I saw him 10 years ago,

and he performed for two hours straight. There was real warmth between him and the audience, a sort of acknowledgement that we're all getting older. And discussing his age, he said he didn't expect to be still performing at 84 but being healthy enough to still be out there on stage was significantly better than the alternative. I think Tom Jones has, I don't think his voice has actually deteriorated. He was very very good on what's that ITV show The Voice. Yeah I always thought he offered quite a lot of insight and what appeared to be a genuine warmth.

I'm always surprised that Will.i.am is on The Voice. Well, he's a very interesting bloke as well, actually. Yeah. He's got what they say is a lot going on. He's got fingers in lots of pies. He's very intelligent, isn't he? Yeah, and he does all kinds of branding and clothes and his tunes and all of that. But yes, I would agree. I think Tom Jones has kept in very good shape in lots of ways. I saw him in Vegas once, Jane, and he was definitely dialing it in. But his voice was good. Oh, I really felt for him. So he was doing his... How old would you have been then?

Residency. Gosh, well, that would have been... I mean mean it was pre-kids for me so 20 years ago. So he was a mere stripling in his 60s. You could do that dine and listen thing, that was what the package was and it was absolutely the highlight of our Vegas excursion for us. So you sat in these little booths that were trying to, I suppose, recreate that 1950s kind of glamorous... I rather like that. Dine and dance type thing, you know, bring me a steak frite followed by something flambéed. It was that kind of vibe. And Tom came out and he just did all the hits.

Bish, bash, bosh, whoa, whoa, Delilah. Someone threw some pants on stage and off he went. It was so disappointing. So do you think someone is, or back in those days, was routinely planted in the audience to lock the knickers on? Exactly. And when you could practically see somebody open a three for two pack from M&S and just chuck out Tuesday's high leg bikini briefs, thank you very much Tom.

By the way they're good. Good night. The full knicker is the one you want for real comfort pants. Which is the preferred knicker to throw at a rock star? You tell us. Have you thrown pants at a living legend? What was their response? As the living legend ages, the pants presumably get bigger and bigger and bigger. Well, like, yes, or do they? Do you go out? I mean, let's say, and actually we did, we saw a similar thing. People were practically fainting at Lindsay Buckingham, who is, I think, probably a totem pole for high-leg pants when he appears on stage.

How old would he be? Say he would have been 264. Until I'm ashamed to say not that long ago I thought it was one of the women. Yeah anyway. But do you buy a special pair of pants to throw at your icons or do you throw your own? We'd like to hear. I've never thrown a pair of pants at anyone. Have you? We've heard of grow your own. Now let's investigate grow your own.

Grow your own. Can I briefly mention someone who has, I think I quite appreciate his honesty, because he's just said, I'm emailing in in the hope that you'll say something catty about Woman's Hour. Oh, I saw that one. We're not going to, so forget it.

But it was a male listener who did say, can you offer some insight? Well, I'm only going to say that I do recall my 150 years on that programme. The meetings after the show were frequently a lot longer than the programme, and that's all I'm prepared to say. And we did have lovely cake, lovely cake, some of which I made. I got to the stage where I enjoyed making cakes. There was my cake tin that appeared on Channel 4 News once. This is all going in the book. It's all already been out in the podcast. But yes. But give it another airing. Why not? Why not?

But no, you can forget it. It's not going to happen. Well, no, and also we can't because I'd said to Cheryl that I don't want to bash the BBC anymore. But then we've had emails, quite a few of them, saying, Cheryl, let them do it. We want to hear about it. So, look, balance. Balance, yeah. But I think you can hold two thoughts at one time about the BBC, can't you? You can appreciate its worth whilst also laughing at its inadequacies. So maybe that's the path to go down. Dear Jane and Fee, call me Bean.

Love you both, listen daily. We have a history. I always slightly quake when I read that. You read out an email of mine on your previous podcast, episode 140. Like Fee, I'm a swimmer Jane and this is our history our shared history for capturing photos of buses can you film the bus using the video function and then pause the footage and screenshot the photo from that? Yes I can. That's your weekend sorted. That's the whole of the next year sorted. And then one for me I'm an

ex-mall ass at heart I'll check that minehead sea wall is still standing next time I visit home. Well, could you please because otherwise I'm going to have to pop back myself And bean goes on to say sadly my best friend died from cancer on the 4th of August It just turned 40. I'd sent him photos and links including episodes of off air to cheer him up during chemo Does that qualify me for a tote bag? It would provide you with extra advertising in the changing room at the pool. Well, I'm really sorry to hear that about your friend. Am I allowed an executive decision on a tote bag? Or can I hand it over to Jane and she can make an executive decision on a tote bag? Well, I think it's a big yes because it's Bean and Bean can have a bag because that

gives us Bean bag. Oh, that's brilliant. Yeah, so definitely. Bean, you've got a bag because that gives us bean bag. Oh that's brilliant. Yeah so definitely. You've got a bag. And actually I want to also give a bag to Sheila and Sheila's son Mark has emailed in to say, my mom adores listening to your podcast with her headphones and I want to find older listeners than my mom. Well Mark, you sound like a great bloke and a very, very good son, but you haven't told... Oh, she's 100! I'm so sorry.

Sheila, his mom, is 100. Because she's got a letter there from the King. She's got a letter from the King and Camilla. We are so pleased to know that you are celebrating your 100th birthday on the 20th of August 2024. So Sheila Bowden, very, very happy birthday to you and you can most certainly have a tote bag. Congratulations. They will be sent out when you get that. They'll be sent out. Okay, delegate, delegate Rosie, well done.

Eve is back very soon, Sheila and Mark, hang on in there, you'll get that bag. Do you think that the King and Queen are reviewing the age at which they have to write to everybody, now that people are living longer. Do you think we'll get an edict from the palace one day so they look enough? Times have changed. We're having to do the whole of every third Wednesday in the month just signing our names to the centenarians. Considering how genuinely quite time consuming it is for us to write our names on the cards we send out with the tote bags, I feel for the couple.

Do you? We've got a similarity with royalty there. So much in common. Will you be watching the new Amazon Prime Prince Andrew mini-series? Oh I don't know Jane, I feel like I've seen that. Well I think this is going to... I mean yeah let's... I'm going to reserve judgment. I'll watch one episode. I think I've got it. I never know whether I've seen that. Well, I think this is going to, I mean, yeah, let's, I'm going to reserve judgment. I'll watch one episode. I think I've got it. I never know whether I've got it.

It's three, is it? It's three, three parts. And this is not Scoop, because Scoop was just the one-off Netflix drama. Ruth Wilson plays Emily Macbeth, and I do like Ruth Wilson. I think she's a great actress, so we'll see. Yeah, anyway, that's coming our way.

So we have been talking about a couple of, actually an important recommendation. Have you seen this about the Everest film Mountain Queen? Oh, now this was actually recommended by Rosie yesterday to give Rosie her due. Yeah. It just sounds very good. And it is about a female Sherpa called a Lakpa Sherpa. And it's on Netflix now. So if you're a bit kind of, I'm not going to say worn down, although I just have, by the kind of machismo of male mountaineering experts, here's the alternative and I'm going to try and make a point of watching that myself. So thank you Sue. You've got a busy weekend, haven't you?

I've got a lot. I've got the buses to photograph, I've got Pilates tomorrow, I'm going to that place in the northwest as well, so a lot to squeeze in. Oh and the proms tonight. Sally is in Mosel Bay. I've nothing of interest to say about duvets but would just like to note that it was Scott who met the sticky end while Shackleton was the hero who survived being trapped in the ice. Therefore it is a great name for a duvet. Thank you Sally. I'm sorry that's my stomach. Really? I had such a busy morning the window cleaner was around, he came a little bit late. Did he? He did, yes.

Well Rosie's had plumbers. Have you? You have had plumbers haven't you? One of them's got gout? Yes, we've got gout! So not just any plumber but the one with gout. Gosh. Which actually I'm not laughing at because that's a very painful thing Gout. It is. I just always think about slightly kind of flatulent, opulent kings.

But you know what, I think Henry VIII gets off lightly in many ways actually because we think of him as a man with Gout but actually he was also a man with syphilis and gonorrhea, wasn't he? He was profoundly overweight. Yeah, and I don't think in a nuanced conversation about STDs, people are thinking about Henry VIII. Well I will next time I have a nuanced conversation about STDs. Also, he's so flattered by the actors who play him. Jude Law is currently playing Henry VIII. Do me a favour. Admittedly he had to pile loads of weight on to play

the part, but even so, I mean, honestly, if you were Henry you'd be chuffed with that wouldn't you? Yes. You really would. I just want to briefly mention this from Jane about trains and public transport and manners. I felt compelled to write in this evening because I was chatting to my 13 year old son about his day in school. He was with a friend and they were sitting in the front seats that are designated for disabled passengers or expectant mums. His friend saw an older man and asked him if he would like his seat, to which the man replied, Do I look disabled?

His friend replied no. The man proceeded to ask his friend if he was disabled. He answered no, but the man said, Will you look like you are? Oh. This experience had obviously been felt very keenly by the boys as they rarely give a detailed report of that nature about what's gone on during the day. Jane, thank you for that. I'm sorry that happened to your son and his mate. That's infuriating actually when you've got two young lads who are trying to do the right thing because it's not easy as an adolescent sometimes to confront older people conversationally or you know it really isn't or to offer everything. Really to just step out of your own world into the world that's being inhabited around you.

Don't you worry that now they'll just never ever do that again? That's the point Jane's making, it's just annoying. I'm sorry that happened. You know some people old and young are just rude and they're just nasty. So give our best wishes to Asani. He won't be interested or know who we are or care. And I also appreciate, but do pass them on anyway because he sounds... Bless you. Bless you. He does sound lovely. And also I do... I tell you what, Eva's quieter. I think she is a bit. I never thought I'd say that. It's that time of year again when

you do, oh, I'm not in this position anymore, but you try and extract a conversation about what's going on at school. When you just don't get any, once they get past a certain age, literally nothing comes back your way. And so I appreciate that when there is a nugget dispatched or regurgitated by your offspring, you're so desperately grateful to cling onto it.

Because otherwise you just have to ask what was for dinner. Oh, but I do love a conversation about school food. Oh, do you? Yeah. Well, yes, I mean, they were the easiest things to talk about on the whole. I'm always just incredibly impressed. What, by what's provided? Yeah. And I'm not sure if my mum and I have, you know,

if we had lots of conversations every, on a daily basis about what the school lunch is, well, I'm not sure that I would have been able to get beyond meat. Meat, meat and potatoes. Yeah, well. Meat and potatoes. Potatoes with some meat.

Did you ever have red cabbage though? No. We did. No. Anyway. Oh Oh Rosie has had enough. Okay, we'll wind it up, shall we? Let's wind it up, Rosie. Sorry, your phone's beeping, your nose needs blowing. Yeah, our stomach's going. We'll have an interview in a few minutes. Yes, okay. Who's our guest today? Our guest today is David Olusoga. Here he is. She's very demanding, isn't she? Lead producer.

Hope you're having a good time Eve. Come back. David Olusoga's latest book is a bit of genius. It gives you, the reader, a bit of black history for every day of the year. The kind of book you could keep by the bed and read every day and by the end of the year be far better for it. It takes you from learning about the Black soldiers who helped us in the first and second world wars to the contributions of Stormzy and Beyonce with obviously massive amounts in between. Our producer Hannah very thoughtfully looked up February the 27th which is my birthday, I was a bit touched by that David, and the entry tells you about Moonlight, which was the 2016 film with an all-black cast, which won the Oscar for best picture.

It was that dreadful ceremony, wasn't it, where they announced the wrong... Well, there have been so many, no one was slapped in that ceremony, so the bars got lower. Yes, no, you're absolutely right. We have to be more specific, but it almost wasn't... It was announced wrongly, wasn't it? It got confused with La La Land. But it was an excuse to slap someone that year. Yes, Moonlight was the film that won.

Well, he was probably thinking he had a long and glorious career ahead of him at that stage. It's a very good conceit, isn't it, doing a book this way, but I wonder when you were writing it, Good conceit, isn't it, doing a book this way, but I wonder when you were writing it, whether you were constantly surprised by just how many people and places and things and events you could have put in. I mean, I think you could probably have gone longer than 365 days. Well, it seemed like a massive task, but I wrote it with my two siblings, Jinka and Cammie, and we both wrote, well, all three of us, I should say, wrote lists, and from those three lists we had more than 365.

So what I thought seemed like a massive figure, we actually, we had more and so it was a case from then of reducing it, the opposite of what I'd imagined. Yeah, so I say that you had all of that choice but the reality is to many people reading this, they will read about these figures and events for the very first time. They won't have any knowledge about it and that really says something, doesn't it? It does and in some ways a lot of my work and the work I've done with my siblings, it's about trying to normalize black history. It was invisible when I was at school. I learned nothing about the Empire, nothing about slavery, nothing about the contributions or the presence of black people in Britain. And I think that's really changed

over the past 15, 20 years. First stage was recovery, is putting this stuff back in the story. The next thing I think is just normalizing it, that this is just part of history. Black history is just part of history, British history, world history. So I feel this is a sort of very kind of normal book.

It's just making this as a history that's just there. Some of it's wonderful, some of it's terrible, some of it's inspiring, some of it's shocking, like all history. Can you give us a flavor of some of the entries and perhaps not the very obvious ones? Yeah, well, I'll tell you some of the favorites. I mean, someone I really admire,

who I've never had a chance to write anything about, is Josephine Baker, the great star of Cabaret in the Paris in the 1920s in the Folies Bergé, one of the most exotic and erotic and astonishing figures of that jazz age Europe, who in the 1940s during the war helped and was part of the French resistance, and then in the 1960s was part of the civil rights movement. She spoke from the same stage as Martin Luther King in 1963 at the March of Washington. This astonishing 20th century figure, this woman with multiple relationships and marriages

who adopted, I think it was a dozen children from all over the world, had this kind of international family with her as this other great mother figure. It's just this astonishing figures like that. One of the great tragedies of black history is by forgetting it, because we didn't want to deal with the difficult stuff.

We lost all of these amazing people. How much of what's in the book might children now learn about in primary school? Where does the national curriculum sit on introducing more black history? Well, there's very little but it's getting better. The positive is the national curriculum doesn't control what children learn in the classroom. It controls what's in exams. And most schools are now academies and academies have far more liberty and freedom

to go off curriculum and off grid as it were. A lot of teachers, and I talked to lots of young teachers, I've got to the age when teachers seem young like policemen. They are using Black History Month to teach different aspects of black history. They are using new books, some of the ones that I've written and others, to expand the curriculum. Because to be a teacher, particularly in this city, London,

is to sit there and look at what Britain looks like in 20 years' time. If you want to see the future go to an infant school, it is hyper diverse. And these young teachers want to teach a history that reflects the family histories and the migration stories and the empire stories of how we all came to be together, 67 million of us on these islands. And so there is I think a huge amount more than is you would imagine if you just looked at the curriculum. Yeah isn't the huge problem, David, though,

that although there may be some very, very good and very diverse teaching in communities that need that reflection, it's the communities that aren't diverse which need to know this history the most. So, you know, perhaps if you're teaching in a school in an almost all-white community, you would need to be telling your children more

about what happens in the rest of the UK, but you might not feel the imperative to do so. Isn't that where actually there might need to be a little bit of intervention? Well, I hear lots of positivity. Again, I speak to lots of teachers, I go to educational conferences, and I meet teachers who are not in areas

that are hyper diverse, who really want to teach this history and go out of their way to do it. And it's partly because if you're young growing up in Britain, your world doesn't make any sense without stories of diversity. The England football team, the musicians that you love, the artists of all different sorts that you admire and aspire to be like. Unless you understand this kind of hyper-diversity, the world that you live in doesn't make any sense.

And remember, these, to be young in Britain now, I mean, they're sort of, we call them digital natives. They're also kind of globalism natives. You know, they're into South Korean pop music. They're into art that comes from Nigeria. Their friendship groups, the football teams that they support, it's just so hyper diverse. So a lot of teachers, even in areas where there isn't much diversity,

see this as a life skill for young children. Your own childhood was really marred by racism, wasn't it, to the point at which your family had to move because of the attacks on them. Can you tell us just a little bit more about that? Well, I think the experiences I had as a child are very common for people of my generation, of my age, because the Britain of the 70s and 80s is a very different place than go to the Britain of today. It's just common to people when I talk to people, black or Asian of my generation, that we have these stories. You may have seen the Channel 4 series this year, Defiance, which surely is going to win all the TV awards for documentary. That spoke to an experience that British Asians of my generation experienced every day.

We've somewhat forgotten it, but it's a kind of, it's almost a good thing, and I shouldn't say this as an historian, that we've forgotten some of that because we've got used to a better Britain. So doesn't your heart sink when we see the bit of Britain that isn't a better Britain and we saw it this summer? We absolutely did, and I remember writing at the time that for people of my generation who had presumed that we were the last generation

to have to deal with those sorts of traumas, the idea that there are young British Muslims and people from other backgrounds who experience things this summer that are like the things I experienced back in the 80s, that's absolutely heartbreaking. But I think we need to also look at all the other attitudinal surveys, all of the other statistics we have that shows that in lots of ways this is one of the most successful one of the most Comfortably diverse and integrated societies in the world and there was a wonderful reaction To the terrible actions of some wasn't there which there was happening to see but I wonder what you think about what a what a government Might need to do because the new Labour government has been very swift in its prosecutions

It's been absolutely firm in its language, absolutely has said this isn't Britain and we won't tolerate it. So what do you then say about the reasons behind the riots after the Southport murders? They are not so easy, it's not so easy to change people's attitudes actually. There is still a community in this country that feels that their needs aren't addressed and have been slightly kind of washed away by the courts. But there's a great number of people who feel ignored and with very good reason. I'm from Gateshead, which is the 47th, the poorest place in England. The communities who were attacked this summer equally feel, they're equally from those deprived

places, they're equally feel marginalized. There's nothing about feeling marginalized that justifies attacking people in their house, nothing about them. They're equally from those deprived places. They're equally feel marginalized. There's nothing about feeling marginalized that justifies attacking people in their house. Nothing about them, about those experiences that justify trying to set fire to a hotel and block the exits. I think there's a conflation of motivations and excuses.

The motivations for this were nativism and racism. There's a long and uncomfortable history of race riots, which is dealt with in this book, of attacks on minority communities. I think that's what we saw this summer. That doesn't mean that those economic realities are not there. And as someone, as I said, who comes from those towns, they're very, very real to me.

But they are not the reason for the violence, because the black people attacked, as I say, they also suffer that they can that those economic disadvantages. There are huge, we are one of the most unequal societies developed societies in the world. We are either the most or the second most unequal society in Europe, it depends on statistics that will come out later this year. All of those things are true, but none of that justifies violence none of that is motivated, is the motivation for this. Remember the community that was attacked had nothing to do, nothing, with the terrible events that took place and even when that was known that didn't stop the violence, it didn't stop the racism, it didn't stop the use of the P word, it didn't stop the the aggression, the lies online.

These are excuses being disguised as motivations. Can we talk about some of your other work whilst we have you here because the series that you did, A House Through Time, is that coming back? I did look it up and there was that seemed to suggest that there's another one on the way, is there another one on the way? There is, yeah. There is, oh thank goodness for that. Can you explain it to people who haven't seen it because I think it's just one of the best best shows on television. Well it's a series where I work with a brilliant team who make me look far clever than I am where we tell the history of cities. I doubt that actually David Jane wouldn't you say? I think he's probably okay without the team. We tell the history of cities through individual houses we tell all of the stories of people who lived in those houses from when they were built

and to the present, the current residents. And what you learn through that is this amazing social history of class and gender, of war and peace, of economics, booms and busts. The new series is slightly different. We are not telling the story of an individual house. We are telling the story of two apartment blocks, one in London and one in Berlin. And it's just, in terms of time, it's quite narrow, it's just from the end of the First World War to the end of the Second World War. And we show through the remarkable group of people that lived in these two apartment blocks how the war tore families apart, how it reimagined the world and the traumas that people suffered

and in some cases didn't survive. Can you tell us which apartment block it is in London? I can't, no. I'm not even sure whether I should be saying any of this. It does sound like a great programme. You seem so enthusiastic, I've just gone for it and I hope I don't get in trouble. Yeah, no, I don't think you can get into trouble. Don't worry about that. Don't worry, it pales into insignificance compared to our call sheet there. But I think what it enables people to do, it is that glorious combination Don't worry about that. No, don't worry. It pales into insignificance compared to our call sheet there.

But I think what it enables people to do, it is that glorious combination of social history but focusing on individuals. And we love nothing more than property kind of porn in this country. So it's just a wonderful way to combine all those things. I think it taps into a magic. If you've ever lived in an old house, you might have had that moment where you decorate a room and you find a corner and there's layers of wallpaper. I remember years ago that happened in a room that was obviously a nursery and each of those layers of wallpaper

was the birth of a child, the beginning of a life, and almost all of those lives will have entered by now. And when you find that it's like the layers of a tree and that really powerful idea that we're just passing through that we're part of a bigger story it's one of those kind of chills down the spine moments and that to me what history is about is remembering that people of the past are just as real as we are and sometimes we're lucky we can kind of not just learn about them we can feel something about them. Yep. Well, we're going to look forward to the next series of A House Through Time.

In fact, Lisa has texted in to say, it's utterly fascinating and so informative. Thank you, Lisa. So she is fangirling you too. Is there any sibling rivalry in your family, David? Because as you mentioned at the beginning of the interview, you have written this book with your two siblings. Where are they today? My, my, Yinka is on her way to London and, and Kemi, Kemi's up in the Northeast otherwise busy. There was, there's not, what's happened is in loads of my work I've involved my siblings. Kemi's designed the logos of the companies I've

set up. She's designed, I did a plaque scheme for a BBC series and she designed the beautiful plaques we put all over the world. When I wrote my first children's book, the person who taught me how to write for children is Jinka. So we'd already been working together and we thought, well, why don't we just do it properly

and acknowledge it rather than sort of me beg them for help. Could you write a book with your sister? No. Well, there you go. David Onisuka and his book is out now and time for help. Could you write a book with your sister? No. Well there you go. David Onisuga and his book is out now and time for Christmas. It is a busy, busy old run coming our way in the September publishing stakes. Yeah there's so many cracking books coming out aren't there and then there are some other books

coming out as well. Yeah. But I wonder if somebody in publishing could answer my little query. What's the point of jamming them all together in September? Wouldn't you do better with individual authors to just pace yourselves a bit? Because there's this glut at the moment on the publicity wheel. A bountiful glut. Yep. Where you almost can't squeeze in all of the people who you want to talk to, because they've all got books out.

So the bar becomes incredibly high. I just think, why don't you just advocate a slightly wet, dreary week in April to launch some of your best hitters? Why do it all in September? I think the terrible answer is that festival we have. The run-up to Christmas, yeah. Because aren't an astonishing number of books bought as gifts They are but that's because they're published in September and so you have to buy them But my argument would be I would still I would still buy them

At Christmas for my loved ones if they're being published in a dry week in August So I don't know. Somebody will be able to tell us. They always can. Your lovely listeners, Jane and Fee at Times.Radio.