Off Air... with Jane and Fi - But Princess Anne never did sidesaddle! (with Ashley John-Baptiste)

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

Jane is reflecting on her upcoming birthday and Fi has some hard truths about the milestone... They also chat riding sidesaddle, cruises and retirement plans. Plus, Fi speaks to BBC reporter Ashley John-Baptiste about his memoir 'Looked After: A Childhood in Care'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'Missing, Presumed' is by Susie Steiner. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I don't have any super glue, nor do I have a penis. So I am out of this particular conversation. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day.

Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Are we ready? Okay. Fee's just having one of those health bars. I'm having a crunchy. Not a crunchy. No, you're not having a health bar. Because that isn't health. That's where you've gone wrong over the years.

That's not a health bar. I was just having a little bit of a sugar pick-me-up after our arduous show. Oh, it was quite arduous today. In an entertaining kind of way. Oh, I thought it was great. A little bit of a ding-dong with Edwina Curry. Well, it's not a huge ding-dong, actually.

We just had a nice... You can have a really good, punchy conversation with Edwina Curry. You can. And like every politician, particularly like every female politician, she has her critics. But she is somebody who, as you say, will come right back at you and doesn't take offence. She's all for the uh rufty tufty nature of the game and always i mean

let's be honest as well fee she's a classic good booking because she gets the audience going yeah and she's a good scouser who went to oxford done very well for herself i know there are other things we could say about edwina curry but we're not going to say them now Diana says she's 69 and a bit thanks for your show she says I love it and you actually make me giggle well that's good because I think giggling at every age is absolutely

God it's an underrated skill virtue, delight, whatever it is I just want to tell Jane she says the 60s can be great fun, in my 60s I've welcomed grandchildren into my life. I've fully retired from my long-haul cabin crew life. I've had horse-riding lessons. A bit too

scary. I've taken up lawn bowls. I've been a part-time TV model on This Morning, and I've used my Freedom Pass to bomb up to London. I've also discovered cruising, Greek islands, joined a gym, and I'm learning online to speak Spanish. So there's a brilliant load of activity there.

What have you got planned? Well, let me just go through this. I won't be doing riding lessons. Ah, lawn bowls. Not even side saddle. I have ridden once or twice. I went on a trekking session many many years ago and actually i remember exactly when it was because absurdly it was the day before my very first ever uh radio award ceremony

and i the show that i presented had been nominated for something but we were a little local radio station so no possibility that we'd win anyway fee i'll never guess we did but i because i've been riding the day before i could barely walk it's like i was literally john wainer up on stage i was seriously concerned that i wouldn't be able to walk up the steps oh dear it was absolutely appalling so maybe you should have tried side saddle. Yeah. For some reason I was thinking about riding side saddle in the evening. It's very difficult. So difficult. Because it was because at Trooping of the Colour the king

didn't go on a horse and fair enough he's had treatment for cancer in the nether regions so that would obviously be very uncomfortable. We don't know that. Well we kind of do because he went in for a prostate. Oh that's true. Anyway let's not, I don't want to dwell on that. No, no.

But I did think, you know, for women in the royal family, it's still absurd that they have to travel side-saddle. The late queen was still... I tell you what, that must take tremendous skill. I don't know how you do it. Princess Anne didn't do side-saddle, did she? No, but she... She's got special permission.

She's different. Okay. did she no but she uh she's different i think you've definitely made it better. Right. Oh, God. Anyway, let's just... Let's just acknowledge that the skill set required to ride side saddle off the scale... Oh, I'm sorry.

So if you are... You were right about the giggling Diana that is extremely important what else is on the list I mean this is again this is going to be beyond me I'm not going to be asked to model anything on this morning really am I

oh no come on no I'm not no I have to accept it no I'm not I'm not no you could I'm not going to be asked to be a model on this morning you once said that you're being complimented

by a pedicurist on having very nice feet. Oh, yeah, that's true. So you could do summer sandals. Thank you. You're being very nice. That's good. Yes, okay, summer sandals. Cruising.

Oh, no. I don't think that's for me. No. I'll never join a gym. And I can't speak languages either. I'm absolutely in awe. I've got a few friends who've done a bit of Duolingo. I don't know if that's what Diana's doing.

I've never got on with that either. So I'm still slightly weeping. You've been a little bit silly. That's what Fi's been today. It's because she's young, you see. And when you're in your 50s, you can get away with this sort of thing. I know, but you like it. Cruising.

What is it about cruising that I don't think I'd like? I'm always imagining that it would be, I mean, I saw quite a few episodes of The Love Boat, which was shown in our region on a Sunday afternoon. Desperate times. I used to love The Love Boat. Oh, I loved it. Yeah, I didn't like it.

And I wonder whether that put me off um anyway people like diana who've been cruising and clearly love it she said the greek islands trip was just incredible um let us know why it's so good and friends you've made on cruising um you know whether you had qualms about it before your first one you absolutely fell in love with the concept but obviously what would be much more fun would be to hear from people who've had a terrible time on a cruise so please do get in touch I find it incredibly claustrophobic well I imagine I would

when I was very early doors pregnant and actually we just had to get off I just couldn't stand it well there was a smell of diesel all the time which doesn't help when you've got morning sickness and the cabins just of course they are claustrophobic unless you've got some kind of a state banquet cabin.

Yeah, but doesn't every cabin get a little... We didn't have a balcony. Oh, dear. No, we just had a porthole. Oh, dear. Yeah, and I just found the whole thing just slightly terrified me, actually. It just kept on wanting to get off. So we did.

We got off. And the really weird thing about it was we got off three stops before our final destination i know that's not the right nautical terminology at all and nobody contacted us so to all intents and purposes we should still have been on the boat and you kind of think well i'm not sure that's particularly safe is it actually missing at sea yeah so we just went and nobody phoned us to say are you coming back did we miss you are we going to name the company would you like to be picked up in barcelona if you may maybe make it to another balearic island we could come and get you on tuesday no we just went it was weird wasn't it john ronson wrote a fantastic very kind of long

form piece i think actually you might have written a small book about the weird world of cruise ships. What do you mean the weird world? Oh my goodness, there are a lot of people who go missing on cruise ships. There's quite a lot. I tell you what, it's a good job we're not sponsored by a cruise company. I really hope we're not at the moment. There is some discrepancy about whose law you fall under. You know, if you're in international waters, therefore if a crime is committed, who should prosecute it? It's quite a weird world. It's not the love boat.

No. That's for sure. There was always trouble on the love boat, wasn't there? Yeah, not that kind of trouble. Oh, no, no. Anyway, I'm sorry, I've completely ruined it. But look, we had some giggles about Princess Anne. No, we've totally moved on from Princess Anne now.

It's not on my mind anymore. It is not on my mind anymore. Susie joins us from singapore enjoyed your reminiscing of designated dinner hours at work today i live and work in singapore where food and particularly lunch is taken very seriously it's an absolute given that everyone will disappear from the office between 12 and 2 for an hour eating your lunch at your desk is frowned upon as lunchtime is seen as a time to connect with colleagues in the canteen or in one of our amazing and super cheap hawker centres. The first question anyone asks you if you have a meeting immediately after 2pm is, have you had your lunch?

And if you haven't, they give you a pitying look. Now, that sounds good, doesn't it? So, in fact, it's a lunch two hours, isn't it? You can disappear between 12 and 2 and go and have a really decent lunch somewhere. I think we're wrong to have forgotten the lunch hour here. I don't think it's a good advance in our working day at all. Well, it's horrible, isn't it, when you look down at your... What's it called, the thing we work with?

The computer. Oh, I was going to say Eve. No, I wouldn't ever refer to it as that. No, the keyboard. And there's bits on the keyboard. Oh, I know. It's like the bits in your cutlery drawer that we used to talk about so fondly. But yeah, no, eating

at your desk fundamentally is disgusting and so many of us in our hectic lives have to do that, don't we? Heidi says, when I was at a girls' grammar school in the 70s one of our house names was Faraday. We were talking the other day about Faraday. The others were Drake, Scott and Raleigh.

Well, I was pleased to see from a Google search that the houses are now named after influential females. So we have Malala, Elizabeth, Pankhurst and Curie, which is nearly Curie, but not quite Curie. It's Curie. Is Raleigh, Raleigh, Sir Walter... Raleigh. Raleigh.

Yeah. Sir Walter Raleigh. I don't know. Sir Walter... Yes, it will be, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just correcting you mildly, though. Well, no, because we used to say Sir Walter Raleigh.

Oh, OK. We used to say Sir Walter Raleigh. Well, he was down south. Up north, he was Raleigh. OK. And I'm going to stick to that. No, no, no, please do. Please do. valley okay and i'm gonna stick to that no no please do please do um rachel uh notes that the totes are now a free-for-all no they're not would love to ask for one please well that's my fault

isn't it because i said yesterday that anyone could have a tote and uh eve has lived to regret me saying that so i will personally take responsibility, Eve, for sending out the totes to the people who've just asked for a tote. I don't mind doing that at all. But please don't just write in asking for a tote anymore. That was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that's now passed. Well, unless you're Princess Anne. We will think of another reason that people can have a tote,

which means, Rachel, you're absolutely in with a chance. And do you know what? There's just a really lovely address. I won't give out the whole of it because that would be a bit weird, but she lives in a coach house. Oh, that must be nice. In the East Riding of Yorkshire, although she's spelt it wrong and she's put the East Roading of Yorkshire.

Oh, shoot. That's terrible. That's almost as funny as the reform candidate who has been outed today as doubting the king's loyalty, which I'm definitely going to put as my special reform moment. I mean, look, all parties are... How can I get out of this hole I've dug myself? I don't know.

Democracy is wonderful, and reform are allowed to produce candidates just like all the others, but they do seem to have got some very peculiar ones. Yeah, I mean, the weird thing about doubting the king is just, I mean, what else could he do to signify his loyalty to this country? I mean, the poor bloke's had treatment for cancer. He still turns up to troop the colour. He's got back to work as soon as he can.

He's become king. He's become king. He's not taken on a side hustle. No. You know, he's not CEOing, you know, a company for his own personal benefit, you know, somewhere down the line. Don't think he is anyway.

I know he's got lots of money, so he doesn't need to do that. But I mean, I think the one thing you can't doubt is his loyalty to the institution that he is. Because he is literally the king. He sings songs about saving himself. Or God saving him, yes. There were a couple of footballers, you know,

when they scanned across the National Anthem. There were definitely a couple of queens still in there. I beg your pardon? Instead of God Save the King. Oh, I see. God, you're getting yourself into so many bits of trouble today. No, not deliberately at all. There were just, you could see,

I think there were a couple of God Save the Queens. Well, it still doesn't quite come naturally, does it? And I'm sorry, I still think we've got the worst national anthem. Do you? I do. It's a dirge. It's just a dirge. I mean, having said that, most of the anthems I've been hearing at the Euros have all been dirges, really.

But one or two are a bit stirring. A French one stirs your stumps a bit, doesn't it? It does. The Marseillaise. Yeah. He's broken his nose, hasn't he? Mbappe, which is good news for any team likely to play France, because I don't think he can play in the rest of the tournament. Right. But do you know what? He's said some very interesting things though, hasn't he? At the press conference that people were grateful to him for saying. Because he's not a man of many words usually, is he? Well, I think he

was playing for a team that were sponsored by a country that perhaps might have stopped him from saying anything. So I think it's the timing of his statement is not coincidental. Yeah. So I think it's the timing of his, you know, his statement is not coincidental.

Yeah. And I know there's a French election, which is why he's speaking. Yeah, and sorry, so to people who are thinking, what on earth are they talking about? He basically said at a press conference, it's an incredibly important time to get out and vote. And especially if you're young,

don't be convinced by the National Rally Party because it is trying to divide France and we don't want that to happen. And, you know, if you think about all of the press conferences that we have after international football events, it is very rare for somebody to actually put their foot right into the political ring and say something, isn't it? Unheard of. Yeah. Which, to be fair, they're not asked. They're not asked, but why shouldn't they be asked? They're such important representatives of, you know,

of communities, of generations, of, you know, the towns they're from. I mean, you know, they've just got such huge respect. It's a good point. Of course they should have questions. Yeah, why don't we use sports people just to encourage young people to register to vote? Yeah. If nothing else, I'm not expecting to encourage young people to register to vote? Yeah. Nothing else.

I'm not expecting them to endorse a party, but just encourage voting. It seems a bit, you're right, it seems a missed opportunity. Jean wants to say that she's lived in New Zealand for about 40 years and she's been told by a friend that I and every other expat can now vote in UK general elections. It seems bizarre. My links to the country are tenuous now. My parents have died. I wonder how many long-term expats are now signing up to vote in an election which really isn't going to impact our lives at all, and whether you think this change of voting

possibilities is a good thing for the UK. Last time I voted, it was for Paddy Ashdown, says Jean. Oh yes, that does date you slightly as a voter, Jean. But yes, it's true. That is true. We looked it up today. And I think it's a bit odd too, because I think if you don't live in the country and haven't for decades, is it really fair that you should have a vote?

You haven't paid tax in this country either. Why on earth should you be allowed to vote? I don't think you should be. No, but they are. Liz has this to say. I had to smile to myself when Fi was talking about blushing as a child and teenager. I was always blushing.

I couldn't do anything to stop it. Someone unfamiliar only had to say hello and I could feel my cheeks burning. I studied nursing at university. By week two of training training my blushing was cured in my first week i'd encountered numerous chats about people's bowels and an elderly gentleman telling me about the time his hand got stuck to his penis with super glue 20 years later and i'm still nursing as a practice nurse specializing in sexual and reproductive health safe to say i

haven't blushed for years now i, I didn't quite understand this. Is it because people told Liz so many just unutterably extraordinary things that her system was shocked into not blushing anymore? Well, we need the science on this, don't we? Can you be shocked out of blushing? Or, I mean, I imagine that after some decades in that line of work,

Liz has heard and seen just about everything well i mean it sounds like she saw quite a lot just by week two of training yeah i mean that elderly chap is it um is it ever wise to combine your penis with super glue i don't i don't think it is i don't have any super glue norglue, nor do I have a penis. So I am out of this particular conversation, but I would be interested. I just don't think, superglue is,

I mean, I don't think we've got any in the house at all because I'm very wary of it. Well, I keep mine in the man drawer for emergencies and I'm very, oh, I'm super careful about it

because I have stuck my fingers to all kinds of things and not parts of my body. Just inanimate objects trying to hold the sticky bits together. You were stuck outside broadcasting house for decades, weren't you? Just used to send the microphone out and you'd do it from there. You couldn't be moved. But Liz, I'd love to know more. And also, why is it, and a doctor can help us with this,

why is blushing such a teenage thing and such a childhood thing? Why do you grow out of it? Is that just habit? Do you somehow learn to subconsciously control it? I don't understand the mechanism of it at all. But do you know what? I used to go to quite harsh lengths, actually, to stop myself from blushing.

And I do remember once I bought a green-coloured face cream, which was meant to tone down the blush when it arrived. But, of course, I mean, it's just green face cream. You look even worse putting it on. But you'd try anything, wouldn't you, as a teenager? Do you remember what that was called? Well, it came from a well-known brand sold in the

Boots pharmacy. So it wasn't a kind of, you know, ding-dong Instagram thing. There's quite a lot of shite being sold to me at the moment because I bought one neck cream. Oh my word. Oh really? They're coming at you. Oh my gosh. For some reason I'm being pummeled by sheets

on Instagram. Sheets? Well, you must have bought a sheet. I don't think I have. I do occasionally look at fitted... Well, there you go. Fitted sheets. There you go. It's all over. That's how I like to roll. They will chase you around the internet for years now.

Will they? OK. Fitted sheets. Right. Fair enough. Stephen says, I too am approaching the big 6-0 and can therefore relate to the noises that you're making, Jane, as you get up from the sofa. In our household, we call them involuntary noises. Yes, I mean, I am trying really, really hard, consciously now, not to make that noise because I'm aware that I have been doing it. And as I'm very fortunate enough to still have my parents with us, with me,

not literally now, but with us, I'm aware that I to still have my parents with us, with me. Not literally now, but with us. I'm aware that I don't want to quite... They have the sofas that are designed for the older folk. And in fairness, they do a great job because they're straight-backed and it's quite easy to hop out. I've got the low-lying, soft sofa. And I'm just aware that maybe I won't be owning it for that much longer fee. Oh, goodness.

No, I might have to get a firmer sofa. Okay, just for people who are new to the podcast, Jane is about to turn 60. Not 80, not 70, not 90, but so far, just in the space of the last 20 minutes, you're not a pensioner yet. It's okay if you make the occasional noise. You don't need a specialist sofa. Oh, I'm just

saying. Just saying. The sofa that I've got now is very comfortable and I'm not keen to get rid of it, but it's just something I'm bearing in mind. That's all. Okay, I really don't want to let you go down this slippery slope into imagining

that a really old age is upon you at the end of next week. I think that is unwise. No, I'm not really thinking that. You've still got all of your own teeth. You've got all of your own hair. Yes, that's true. Also, should Sir Keir Starmer become Prime Minister

and Hayfee, it's still only a possibility. The only poll that matters, Jane. Is on July the 4th. Yeah. Should he, he will be older than me, which actually gives me a bit of reassurance. That's comforting. It's a comfort to know that for a long time

the Prime Minister has been younger than me. Well, Theresa May was a bit older, but Cameron is younger than me. Johnson. Johnson, I don't think he is younger than me. I think he's almost exactly the same age. Is it his birthday this week too? I think it is. Is that why he's away on holiday? Oh, it will be,. I think he's almost exactly the same age. Is it his birthday this week too? I think it is.

Is that why he's away on holiday? Oh, it will be, yes. Although he's made a reappearance in the election campaign. Let's move on. How old's Rishi Sunak? Rishi Sunak, I think he's... He's tiny, isn't he? Well, he is tiny, but I think he's only...

I don't think he's 50. No, he's in his 40s. Is he? Gosh, I mean... So that would be quite something to be a former prime minister, should it come to pass, before his 50th birthday. His achievement is considerable in achieving high office at that age. I agree. I don't think Keir Starmer looks older than you, actually. I think he looks quite young. Well, that's great.

Thank you very much. Do you want to start this whole podcast again? I'm sorry, listeners. That came out wrong. Do you want to start this whole podcast again? I'm sorry, listeners. For yous having... That came out wrong. You really are. I'm off. Right, I think we should...

Because we have got a good guest today, which is just as well. But it's also worth saying that tomorrow's guest is Jill Halfpenny, who's an actress who's appeared actress who's appeared in lots of shows that I've enjoyed over the years. She won Strictly, of course, many of you will know. But she's written a book that actually, I must admit, I picked it up and I thought it was going to be about her showbiz career. It's actually about grief and how to

tackle grief. She's had some shocking, bad fortune in her life, actually. And I think she writes in a very interesting way about grief when it occurs when you're a very young child. She was only four when her dad died. And then a partner died very suddenly some years ago. Anyway, she's interesting. And I think it'll be good to hear about her experience of getting through all that as best she can. And then later in the week, we've got Tom Bower on Thursday.

He's written this book about the beckhams it's called the house of beckham and i've read about half the book and i'm here to tell you that i suspect most of us kind of knew that possibly you know they they'd had the odd bit of tension in their marriage should we leave it there fee let's leave it there but let's definitely look forward to some probing questions on Thursday. Ashley John-Baptiste is a journalist and BBC reporter. You might know him from The One Show or For Love or Money, which he presented with Kim Marsh, or reporting on Grenfell or the 2018 World Cup.

He was also part of a boy band put together for The X Factor, an opportunity he chose to walk away from pretty quickly. His passion is journalism and the amplification of often unheard voices, notably about the care system, shining a light on the world that he knew only too well as a cared-for child himself. Now, he lived with five different families as well as spending time in a children's home and he tells his story in a book called Looked After, A Childhood in Care.

A really good, honest and authentic autobiography is quite a thing to write. Telling everyone your story is not always the easiest thing to do. So I asked Ashley whether he ever had to consider that his career would become framed by his childhood experience. Yeah, I suppose so. You know, I'm a broadcaster like yourself and you want to be known as someone with breadth and range. And so I'm talking from a work perspective here to answer your question. And, you know, you don't want to be the care kid. You want to have range, you want to be multifaceted. And also just on a more personal level, how you're seen.

But this book felt really important. It's very rare for a care experienced person to get a mainstream publishing deal. And when I was offered it, I had just done a BBC Three documentary about sibling groups in the care system and I should say I do a lot outside the care system I'm probably more known for the stuff I do outside of care I hope um so off the back of that documentary I got offered this deal um to write about growing up in care and I felt like I had the energy to do it

because it was a deep emotional undertaking. I had to revisit my trauma. I had to revisit the boy inside and I had to remember things. And so it felt worthwhile. It felt important. It felt timely to do. But yeah, of course, I do sometimes have this thing of,

I don't, you know, will people just see me as the care kid? Will that label be, you know, a pervasive thing forever? But actually, the work felt worthwhile and important. Sure. And you're absolutely right, it is. And hopefully, we can make a bit of time in this interview as well to talk about other stuff that interests you too. But on the front the book which is called looked after a childhood in care is just such an adorable picture of you as a young boy so how old were you there and where were you there well I remember who I was living with I was living with a foster mum called Joyce just off the Woolworth Road in South London um I would have been about

five or six and I I I was channeling my inner fresh Prince of Bel-Air with the with the swag as you can see um but that was that that was um a really nostalgic time actually because Joyce was a foster mum who I thought would be my forever home. I can't remember the first home that I lived in because I went into care when I was about the age of two, but Joyce was this Caribbean matriarchal figure who was full of love and energy and she was the centre of the community's orbit and I thought I would live with her forever.

Her children, she was elderly, her children were like my aunties and uncles and her um her grandkids were like my siblings so I very much have really fond memories of that time Caribbean cuisine big family moments and I thought that that would be my forever home and why wasn't it why were you moved on from Joyce's care I don't fully know and that's that speaks to a quite big problem that often um care experienced people don't have access agency over their own story and journey so a year or so after that photo actually um I was told by a social worker in Joyce's living room that she didn't want me anymore. Yeah.

And whilst I knew that she didn't want me, I didn't know when the move would come. I wasn't given information or detail about where I would be moving to. And when I left, it was a spring morning. I remember that vividly I was in front of the telly eating my Cheerios and a cart of professionals arrived at the house I knew one of them, my social worker I didn't know the other workers adults obviously imposing

and in that moment of normalcy, eating my breakfast, watching children's telly, they told me I had to leave. And I remember just being inconsolable. The fear that kicked in, crying, begging Joyce to keep me. I was put in the back of their car and I was taken away. And I was sent to a children's home. It seems astonishing that you were taken away without being told where you were going,

without being shown where you were going and without it being explained to you why you had to go. I mean, it is a recurrent theme in your story, though, isn't it? That actually the person who social services are employed to look after, the foster parents who are there to look after you, they seem to be not putting you first in so many instances. So what does that do to a very young child to not be at the centre of actually anybody's world?

So when I left Joyce's, there was visceral emotion and reaction and I was desperate and I was uncontrollable understandably but I moved time and again and so increasingly I became more detached from the people I lived with I anticipated that they would one day let me go I prepared for rejection and so I suppose to answer your question I I grew more stone-hearted I grew more cold and detached and closed and so now I am and and that was an instinct of survival it was probably quite imperative that I had that because if I if I hoped in every home that they kept me for the long haul then I would have been let down time and again and that trauma could have manifested in

quite um disruptive and and chaotic ways um but I had to unlearn that behavior as an adult because I have two beautiful girls now four and and two, I have a beautiful partner. And so whilst that mechanism almost helped, you know, it's something that certainly isn't going to serve me well now that I have to be this, you know, rock of emotional support to my kids. Yeah, for sure. What is a children's home like? Well, it's promising for me it's promising that some of them are actually quite good now

they are more therapeutic they try and cultivate an environment of home and family and community the one I was sent to so it was clinical there were no consistent uh guardians there was no joyce um we had shift workers there were around six to eight boys my age shift workers would come and go so some would do the day shift they would leave another batch of workers would come and this would rotate like clockwork day after day um there was one incredible worker who i talk about in my book a man called miles who went

above and beyond to support me an unsung hero best of humanity i call him um but the the framework the furniture if you like of of the home um metaphorically speaking was um it was cold and it was clinical miles very much wanted to try and get you back into school didn't he and i mean i think there are so many notable phrases and the way that you can describe your emotions is really amazing but you you do note that you had good intentions as a kid actually but but you couldn't get over the circumstances that you've been placed in to let people see your good intentions so school had become really problematic and you've been excluded hadn't you yeah in fact I got excluded at Joyce's the the home where I had

to leave and I just articulated how sort of traumatic it was um yeah I didn't have the soft skills to function I didn't trust adults because they let me go because the transience of social workers and foster carers meant that you know I had no base to trust an adult or see them as as good or as loving and of course after leaving Joyce that just spiraled even more so to be in a mainstream mainstream educational setting and sort of respect the authority of the teachers that that was it wasn't going to happen and I didn't have the soft skills of discipline engagement um and and and that stuff's really important and a lot of that stuff is you learn it in the home don't you you learn you learn those basic skills of of how you communicate and how you

respect authority and all of that you learn at home I'm very much seeing that with my kids now and and I didn't have a chance to develop that and so yeah school was a rocky start for a long time and I certainly had academic potential but it wasn't spotted for a very long time. Yeah, we should interject with the current facts now, though, shouldn't we? Because you went to Cambridge. Yeah, mad, isn't it? No, which is, you know, congratulations to you for that. You are a very successful journalist now yourself. You have the ability to, you know, look back with this very clear hindsight and identify the people who've made a difference in your life. And one of them is Miles. But surely it's got to be the couple who then looked after you

and greeted you with such a warm embrace. Evelyn and Clinton. Tell us about Evelyn and Clinton. They were just incredible. British Caribbean couple. They had created this. they created just a culture of inclusion they knew they knew the the nuances that they had to sort of care about they knew the details so you know over dinner they would include me in conversations they had a daughter

who was a similar age to me and um she was very studious and Evelyn was adamant that I had to buckle down and work and revise and do all of that stuff. And that was really foreign to me. And for listeners or viewers, that might confound them. Like, how are those basic things not sort of common to you? But I didn't, you know, I never did homework. I never lived in a home where homework where homework was made a priority and so to like revise and to you know focus and to take school

seriously to do my laundry like all that basic stuff that so many people take for granted. The home just it just it just there was this transfer, I think, of culture that meant that I was now able to flourish in other parts of life where I hadn't before. Yeah, I mean, it's so true, isn't it? And I'm sure that you find this now with your kids, that an enormous part of parenting is just staying still in the background so that the kids can do all the movement. And you just didn't have that, did you?

Everything moved behind you all the time. Yeah just didn't have that did you everything moved behind you all the time yeah like the the literal home that i lived in yes everything yeah and is it possible to now say what it what the care system needs in order to be better for kids going through it it's a massive question and i wish that we had three and a half hours to discuss it but what would you say we're in a time of flux at the moment and governments are changing and all of that kind of stuff but uh you know if you had a just a magic wand from your own personal experience well you know you touched on the fact that i went to cambridge university and i'm a bbc broadcaster now mean, if I left care in the aftermath of COVID

and the cost of living crisis, I don't know if I would have the outcome that I currently have, to be blunt. Josh McAllister was commissioned, a man called Josh was commissioned to do an independent review of the care system. And he, back in 22, 2022, called for more foster carers because, and it's a no-brainer,

a consistent loving adult is imperative for a child to even have a hope of flourishing. There is a massive shortage of foster carers. More children than ever are in the care system. In England alone, it's over 80,000. I mean, unprecedented figures. So more foster carers is what Josh McAllister has called for. Do you know what it is that prevents people from wanting to foster?

I mean, is it something that could be solved with more money, more backup, better social services involvement? Well, in his review, Josh McAllister, and this was sort of a really robust study over time, with care experience people consulting him, he gave a figure, we're talking billions, you know, billions needed for the care system. We know that some local authorities are going bankrupt.

We know that some children's services are being cut across the country. So that money's not materialised. In terms of your point to why we don't have enough foster carers, there used to be a rule that you needed to have a spare bedroom. I'm not sure if that's still a thing, but from work that I've done with the Fostering Network, which is a leading UK charity, a lot of people are interested, they just don't feel they have what it takes. And actually, I found with the foster parents, who've made a really positive difference, they're just normal

people who are prepared to go above and beyond. It's not about having a lot of resources. It's not about being from a certain walk of life. I do think that genuine, inherent passion to want to help a child is the most important thing. And I think more people find that they've probably got it in them if they gave it a shot. So there's certainly a need for more foster carers. I don't think that's controversial to say. No, I'm sure it's not.

Can I ask you about your siblings as well yes yes because you thought you were an only child didn't you for a very long time and in fact that's what you had been told by social services so tell us about when you discovered that you weren't so in my mid-20s, I mean, I'm 34 now. In my mid-20s, a brother, a so-called brother, got in touch on social media to say that he was my brother and he was able to tell me my mum's name and who she was and he was 100% my brother. I knew what he looked like because of social media. We cultivated a relationship online.

We spoke on the phone a couple of times. It wasn't an intense or close relationship. I'd never met him in person until COVID. So my first daughter, my four-year-old daughter, was born in 2020, in the spring of 2020. And when I took her to the hospital for a checkup, my brother was leaving the hospital. It's extraordinary.

It is, even now. It's almost unbelievable, Fi. It is the most serendipitous and powerful moment. So you immediately recognised him. And also the irony of it's during COVID when we're all meant to be apart. Yes. There's just so much symbolism to it for me

that I still grapple with with but he was leaving the hospital and it was like we knew each other and we'd lived down the road from each other our whole lives it was so organic it was like hey bro hey bro it was it was weirdly familiar and normal and um we had a great chat and even the way because my my partner my wife had come with me to the hospital but at the point that I met him she was waiting in the car so I had my daughter and it was just me and it was like this weird moment where I was able to meet him properly and I took a photo with him and and my, so she now has that. She has that, that just, that point of identity or,

I don't know if you want to, if it's evidence, but she has, she has a photo of her uncle. And then we, we parted ways and I haven't seen him since. It is so crazy. And we occasionally message each other on, on,

on Facebook. Can I ask you why you haven't seen him since? Well, primarily COVID. You know, it was the lockdowns. It was staying at home. I think the energy that I might have had back then to have a proper reunion, it went away. And then I became a dad.

And that became the sort of center of my my energy and focus and yeah it's so surreal when I think back to that moment outside the hospital bumping into him um and I've just not stopped moving since but your life definitely your childhood would have been different if you'd been able to stay with your brother. And you have other siblings. You've discovered that you have other siblings. There are a string of siblings. But so many kids are broken up in care, aren't they? Yeah, so because of that experience that I just mentioned, I then felt compelled to make a documentary about it.

I wanted to meet other people. And sibling groups in the care system are often fractured. You have sibling groups living cities, regions apart. Some sibling groups are estranged, so they don't have the opportunity to meet for years, decades at a time. We did an FOI, without getting too journalistic, we did an FOI at the time, this was a couple of years ago, and back then, around half of all sibling groups

in the care system are split up. Now, when you're being moved between homes and families and you don't have a consistent relationship with someone, a sibling can make the world of difference and even if a home can't facilitate a group a sibling group arrangements can be made for that sibling group to have regular contact that's that's not hard to do and actually since my documentary um a number of local authorities have been in touch to say that they're now facilitating reunions and the children's charity quorum have set up a sibling reunification service and they messaged me to say thank you because of the

documentary so that sort of impact of your work is you know priceless isn't it it's absolutely amazing but also it's one of those things isn't it, that you can completely understand how staying with your siblings and remaining part of some kind of a family would bring about better outcomes for young people. So if in the moment for a local authority, it's going to cost less to send kids to different places, in the end it costs them most of all, but also society more. I mean, that's just a simple and logical fact, isn't it? Ashley John-Baptiste, I really enjoyed our conversation. I think it's a really interesting insight into a childhood spent in care. And he's got some very thoughtful contributions. You know, if anybody's listening who's in a position

to actually change some things in the care system. And just that very simple point, Jane, about needing something behind you that just stays still, you know, we take it for granted. If we've got family backing, I think it's, you know, not everybody's family stays together. You know, I fully understand that. But it's the notion that somebody is on your side. Somebody somewhere is on your side. And I think you just can't underestimate how difficult life must be if you don't feel that.

Just astonishing. He's done such an amazing thing with his life, actually. Yeah, he's had a tremendous journey is overused, but actually in his case, I think it's a good description of how he's, well, he went to university in the end, didn't he? He did brilliantly well there. He's now got a really interesting career at the BBC, which I hope

becomes more interesting. I think they'll possibly find better and bigger roles for him. Yes, oh gosh, I hope so too. I think he's definitely, he's already one to watch, isn't he? So the book is out now. It's called Looked After, A Childhood in Care. So thank you for all of your contributions to the podcast. I will send those tote bags out. I'll add it on the list. And the list always gets done right away, as you can imagine.

So those will wing their way to you at some point during my holiday. We're off on holiday, aren't we? Not together, but separately next week. You're going to go and celebrate more of the festival that is the 60th birthday. I'm going on my family holidays. So what happens next week? Are we playing out Sheffield?

Okay. So we're playing out is that separated into two? You can hear the inner workings here. Welcome to our world. So there'll be part one and part two of our evening in Sheffield spent in the company Is that separated into two? Right, you can hear the inner workings here. Oh, my God. Welcome to our world. Right, OK. So there'll be part one and part two of our evening in Sheffield spent in the company of the Reverend Richard Coles. And then that's it. Right.

OK. Well, thanks, Eve. I'm now going off to ponder just why I look so much older than Keir Starmer. I'm sorry. No, it couldn't matter less. Good evening. It came out the wrong way. I look so much older than Keir Starmer. I'm sorry. No, it couldn't matter less. Good evening. It came out the wrong way.

Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that. A lady listener.

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