Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Can you be passionate in Brentford Nylons?

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

The search is on for the person who suffers fools gladly - let us know if you find them. There's also chat about enduring bedding, John Prescott and romps through vegetable aisles. Plus, Jack Thorne and Rachel Mason, co-creators of the upcoming Netflix film ‘Joy’, discuss the scientific breakthrough of the first ever successful IVF baby. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

She's got a fringe that I envy as well. Have you ever been able to grow a fringe? Oh I've had fringes. Have you? I've been on the fringe for years. This episode of Off Air with Jane and Fee is sponsored by John Lewis Money. Fee, is there anything you can't find at John Lewis? No. As well as all the great bedding, kitchen kits, beauty from brands that we all know and love, you can pick up cosy cashmere Christmas decorations and even essentials for your pet. How about a new collar for Nancy? Well, and some sparkly pieces to wear to all those festive get-togethers.

Well, quite. They even do money too, Jane. They really do have it all. At John Lewis Money, in-house experts and trusted partners work together to offer money products for real life. From the John Lewis Partnership credit card to insurance and travel money they can help you think outside the bank. To find out more search John Lewis Partnership credit cards. That's the spirit. Credit subject to status, 18 plus years UK residents TNCs apply. John Lewis PLC is a credit broker, New Day Limited is the lender. This episode of Off Air with Jane and Fi is sponsored by Norwegian Cruise Line. Have you ever thought of taking a cruise?

Well it's crossed my mind, tell me a bit more about it. Well with Norwegian Cruise Line you can travel to iconic locations across Northern Europe, the Mediterranean and the Greek Isles, unpacking only once and exploring multiple European destinations in one holiday. They offer exclusive go local shore excursions as well as an immersive program of on-board experiences. I can't lie I'm intrigued by up to 21 dining options on a single ship. Well Jane their fleet has so many unique bars lounges and restaurants they also have fantastic entertainment shows facilities on board you wouldn't be short of things to do. Plan ahead to discover your dream Europe 2025 cruise. It's certainly one way to beat the winter blues. Experience

more at sea with Norwegian Cruise Life. For more information call 0333 222 6513 contact your travel agent or visit ncl.com. Can I say an enormous hello, congratulations and welcome in particular to Jane spelling it with a Y, following on from the chat this week and this is how we might be able to move on from vegetables. Did we agree we'd just do vegetables up until the official opening of the Christmas season? Out of respect. So yeah, we just got a week left and then we will have seen all of the carrots available in the form of genitalia on the planet. When December chips in, they become seasonal carrots. They do, they become Christmas carrots. It wouldn't be respectful. No, not to the point. We don't want any up-fric parsnips sent our way. Thank

you very much. No. And do you think that anything could happen with a Brussels sprout? If something could happen with a Brussels sprout, I don't want to hear about it. Well, I do. So actually, that might be our finale. If anybody can find something rude in a Brussels sprout we'll take that and that will end it. That will end what has been a remarkable romp through the vegetable aisle. Following on from the chat this week says Jane with a Y, here is a sculpture in the Ekeberg sculpture park in Oslo of a woman weeing outdoors. Brilliant. Here it is. I much prefer the outdoor squat to a

she-wee. Well that is just brilliant isn't it? I mean sometimes these Nordic countries, they just they get there first don't they? And I think that then celebrating what must be quite a chilly needs must if you're out and about in the wilds of Norway. I think we ought to put that up on the Insta as well if that's okay. Yeah, I mean, thank you for that. I didn't know that existed, you'll be amazed to hear, and I'm impressed. Yeah, very impressed.

I am very, very impressed. Now, it's a sad day in Britain. We have lost one of our better known politicians, a man called John Prescott was made a Lord, so became Lord Prescott, died at the age of 86 and he was the Deputy Prime Minister for over, I think about over a decade. He was, yeah, he was there for 10 years. Now, I did come up against him once and he was known to be something of a belligerent type, I think he was a he was an MP for Hull, but he was actually born in Wales, which I didn't know. So I thought he was a Northern, but he wasn't really. He was a Northern MP, but he was actually Welsh. Anyway, when I met him, it was actually in the, I'm pretty sure John Pena was also there, our Times radio colleague, and it was

a by-election on the Wirral just before the 1997 general election. And John Prescott, he didn't, I mean, basically, he didn't. Let's put it this way, I'm sure he did have charm. He didn't use a lot of it on journalists. It was very early in the morning as well. So there we are. But I've got a much nicer anecdote about him now courtesy of a listener. Well, it has been quite interesting as well listening to all of the tributes this morning because everybody's go-to phrase is he didn't suffer fools gladly. And he didn't suffer fools gladly, or clever people trying to get questions out of him.

He didn't suffer them gladly either at all. But do you know what, Jane, I always thought that there was quite a... He had a genuine smile when he did smile, and I don't think that there was an artifice about him, whereas there definitely was with some other politicians of that era. And he was the stabilizers on the New Labour Project, wasn't he? Well they needed him because he was everything that Tony Blair could never be. Exactly. So, you know, he was there for a reason, he did it really well and I think all of the, you know, the kind of the bauble's on the John Prescott tree, which are the punches and the two jags and driving a hundred yards so Pauline's hair didn't get wet and stuff like that, were just a joyful edition for journalists, weren't they?

But actually he really knew his stuff and he did his stuff. By some margin the greatest deputy prime minister this country has ever had and by the way the search continues for the person who does suffer fools gladly. If you know that person please tell us who they are. Well I think there's quite a lot of chumpage on the commercial TV network that suffers fools very gladly indeed, mainly on the commercial TV network that suffers fools very gladly indeed, mainly on the morning programmes. I don't know what you mean. Jane and Fee at Times. Radio, here's the good story, the nice story about John Prescott.

Sad news, says Samantha, I thought I'd tell you about how lovely he was to my parents. Now unfortunately for Fee, a klaxon is going off, this story does take place in the Liverpool area. In the run-up to the 1997 general election, it had become a standing joke in our family that my mum's guilty pleasure was John Prescott. My dad would often gently wind her up about it. Well, my parents lived on the Melling Road, which as many will know, cuts right through Aintree Racecourse.

Now that year, on the day of the Grand National, my mum was in the kitchen cooking when the news reports came through of an IRA bomb threat threat and that meant the course had to be evacuated. No one was allowed to get into their car, retrieve their cars and had to leave on foot, including any dignitaries who were at the race. Well, my dad had been looking out of the living room window, watching everybody filtering onto the street when he called to my mum in the kitchen, Beryl, your fella John Prescott's at the door. Well my dad was a bit of a joker so she didn't believe him at first but when she

heard a number of voices in the hallway she went to look and there indeed was John Prescott and several others who'd been ushered into local houses by the police as a means of protecting them while their cars were able to be organised. It was a bit surreal for my parents who found themselves hosting the soon-to-be Deputy Prime Minister and others, including the wife of the then owner of Marks and Spencer, which is my mum's other big passion in life – the shop, not the owner. John said he was starving. Fortunately, my mum had been cooking a large baked ham, so it was ham sandwiches and cups of tea all round. Their neighbours had Robin cook in the house and were less prepared,

having to send out for fish and chips. A field phone was set up so John could talk directly to Tony Blair. At one point he put my mum on to Mr Blair, who thanked her and my dad for looking after John, and said, John tells me you think he should be the next Prime Minister rather than me. My mum agreed that was correct. Eventually everyone was allowed to leave, he should be the next Prime Minister rather than me. My mum agreed that was correct. Eventually everyone was allowed to leave but John Prescott never forgot the kindness shown by my mum and dad and sent them Christmas cards for years after. They even got a tour of number 10 as well at one

point. They were delighted. He gave them a real day to remember, even a ride in one of his Jags. He told them he still told everybody how nice my mum's ham-butties were. I bet they were as well. Yeah and she just baked the ham. I mean how fortunate is that? By the way when my mum died suddenly in 2004 my dad received a lovely letter from John saying... Oh that is nice. You see that's telling isn't it? Saying how much he'd liked her.

Yep. Well that is a really lovely story. Really. Thank you Samantha. When people's normal lives pull up against famous life or whatever in that kind of way, it's always delightful to hear, isn't it? I did think that Peter Mandelson's anecdote this morning about John Brescott, just randomly, quite recently, having not spoken to him for years, Peter Mandelson, Lord Mandelson, was out and about, his phone went and he answered it, it was on FaceTime and it was John Prescott. And he had called him just to say that he had finally read a book that I think Peter Mandelson must have written in which he had written about John Prescott and he just wanted to say that actually he hadn't found him as kind of difficult as maybe they had all made him out to be at the time or 10 years ago or 20 years ago.

But it was just a lovely thing and then Peter Mandelson said, you know, kind of sorry about that mate, you know, nothing personal, you know, I do quite rate you and I kind of sorry about that mate, you know, nothing personal, you know, I do quite rate you and I kind of did but nobody could, you know, could bring ourselves to say so at the time. Thank you very much. And then he just went, didn't even bother to say goodbye. Just zoomed off. Maybe he was doing the, you know, the call round in moments of clarity, just kind of

tidying up affairs. But it would be quite strange if your phone rang. And it was somebody, quite a blast from the past. Yeah, on FaceTime. Because John Prince, he did have Alzheimer's, didn't he? He did. So perhaps you're right that at moments suddenly everything would come back to him. That's actually very poignant, isn't it?

Isn't it? And I think we would all, towards the end of our life, want to tidy things up. But nice to bother to call. Really nice. And thank you so much, Samantha. I love it when people just contact us on the day with a story like that, which I just had never heard. I remember that day and how fantastic that he just bothered to send a card to your dad when your mum passed away.

So Samantha, thank you. And you're right. It's nice to give those kind of stories a much wider audience. I hope Pauline's all right, I've always had a lot of time for that woman, I think she's had an extraordinary life. Yeah, she has, yep. So, Shirley Ballas's remarks, I'm not watching Strictly, are you watching Strictly? Didn't see it last week though. Okay, because... There was an incident, I gather.

Well Sue Ers has said, a week and a bit on from Blackpool Strictly? Didn't see it last week though. Okay, because... There was an incident I gather. Well Sue Erss has said, a week and a bit on from Blackpool Strictly, it's still irking me that Shirley can get away with drooling over peep wicks in his tight fitting pink plastic trousers. If this was a man drooling over the dancers tight fitting dresses we'd be appalled as head judge she's lowered the tone. This was public embarrassment for peeps and Shirley should be fired for this low life abuse that Strictly failed yet again to clean up. Sounds terrible, doesn't it? Well, it isn't on, is it really? We just have to accept it. I know we've had the odd – there's been the occasional reference to Paul Mescal in the Gladiator 2 trailer. Oh Jane, I'm looking at you.

Yeah, no. In fact, I'm hoping to see the film this week, if I can squeeze it in over the weekend. It does appear to be quite long though, so maybe I'll just watch the trailer again. Anyway, Lisi, this is the problem. So we all do it and Pete Wicks is a heavily tattooed gentleman, that much I do know. I didn't realise he'd worn tight pink trousers last week and I wonder whether, I don't know, to be honest with you strictly it was there was a bizarre episode was a couple of weeks ago and I did see it when the two male judges

were dressed as little girls it was Halloween I think and they were characters from a horror show and can I just say right I just did not like it. Well don't get me started on that. No I know I well. It's a pet hate. No I didn't like it at all I think that was a misstep by the way I don't get me started on that. No, I didn't like it at all. I think that was a misstep, by the way. I don't know what they were thinking, in all honesty. Now, Mea Culpa, because a couple of people have written in to say that they didn't really appreciate what they heard as a flippant tone when we were talking about AI. So this one comes in from Victoria who says, long time listener, first time emailer, like seriously long time. Well, thank you very much indeed. In fact, Victoria goes all the

way back to the last century when Jane was on BBC Hereford and Worcester. She goes on to say, I've just listened to your last interview chat about the AI written story about Nancy and Skoda. Whilst I share your amazement at its speed and its ability to mimic human writing, I must admit as a professional novelist, this fills me with dread. AI is being trained on writing produced by professionals and yes, you're right, no doubt we'll be able to produce a passable, readable book from a prompt soon. But whether it should is more the point. Authors are struggling as it is. Celebrity authors are already crowding out the children's market and there's a whole debate to be had about the use of ghostwriters

who may not be paid much and may also not be credited. AI feels like just one more thing that will eat away at any ability writers have to make money from our craft. It's already almost impossible to live off writing unless you're very lucky indeed. I've got two jobs because it's the only way to make it work. It takes me about eight months to write a hundred thousand word novel and then several further months of editing and proofreading. It is enormously time consuming if done well but it's something that has always brought me joy and I know it brings readers joy too. That's what keeps me going. The idea that writing might eventually be produced

without a real human processing real dilemmas and real emotions Strikes me as tremendously sad and Victoria's latest book is called the storyteller's daughter. It looks gorgeous Victoria So absolutely point taken and I think actually what I was trying to convey And I'm sorry if it came across as flippant, was just how mind-boggled I was at the reality of it. I think we were both horrified. Yeah, so I'm not a fan, I don't want it to take over. I think what was extraordinary though was the very human feel to the prose because having

not deliberately gone in search of AI-generated stuff before, I had this assumption that there would still be a distance between it and what I can tell to be stuff written by a human being. And there just didn't seem to be that. That's what absolutely amazed me. But I completely agree, Victoria, and the terrible thing, as you well know, is that AI has been this basking shark that has been hidden in the waters of creativity for quite a long time already. So the stuff that it is now churning out is because it's ingested your work, it's ingested our work, it's ingested everything

that is out there already. So that's how it can be so clever and sound so much like us, because it actually is us. And I think that's what people can be so clever and sound so much like us, because it actually is us. And I think that's what people like Jeffrey Hinton have been aiming their fire at. He's the guy who was right at the top in Google, wasn't he? And he left because he was so worried that AI had got out of control somewhere along the way. So it's a good thing to flag up Victoria, and we've had a couple actually about art being generated as well and therefore taking

away the work of illustrators and graphic designers. And I think it's terrible because it's been created by you, it's your work in there somewhere and you'd never know or get the recognition for the fact that it's eaten it already. Yeah, I honestly do mean it when I say apart from my nearest and dearest, I don't think anything in life has given me as much pleasure as reading and I love reading. Yeah, same. I'm in absolute awe of authors. And Victoria's point about, you know, a writer's ability is to process what they've seen

and what they've felt and sometimes the wisdom that comes with that is what changes your own life, isn't it? Completely right. We have an email, we had one yesterday as well, didn't we, from people asking if they've missed book club. No, because tomorrow, it's tomorrow. This is from Fiona, who's in out there in Adelaide, formerly the Cotswolds. Okay, well, that's a bit confusing. Is it over there or out there in Adelaide? Well, it's definitely out there. Is Adelaide quite remote in Australia? I don't think it's as remote as some other parts of Australia, but let's not go down

the geography road. No, well, we're heading off now to the foothills of southern Alberta in Canada. And this is Jean, hope, that's how I pronounce your name Jean. This is about retirement, this is brilliant. After decades driving through blizzards in the Banff, Alberta mountains to arrive at work on time, waiting for buses in 20 below zero weather or schlepping to early Monday morning uni classes, I am well retired. I absolutely refuse to make Monday morning appointments. My firm rule

is to take my tea back to bed and have a few moments, self-congratulatory memories of getting children off to school and showing up on time cheerful and in perfect nick wherever I was scheduled to be. I may go back to sleep, catch up on Jane and Fee, or have chocolate for breakfast, watch the birds outside my window, or read a really good book. It's Monday morning and I allow myself any, and I allow any self-improving to lapse.

I think you're well entitled, Jean, I really do. She says she's 84, retired for 20 years, and she credits her sacred Monday mornings for keeping her brain nimble and at relative ease. She says, I don't allow a second of guilt. There's so much in life we can't control, but seizing a bloody Monday morning all to myself is the least I can do to reward

that over-conscientious, sweet woman I used to be. My motto now is don't be nice be kind. I love being an old woman so many never have the privilege of growing old. I think that's so true. Jean you're absolutely right and we acknowledge that and how wonderful thank you. You know I'm gonna think about that over the weekend. It's interesting that she describes herself as being sweet when she had to be, when she needed to be, when society obliged her to be, I guess. And now she slightly thinks sod it. And in that expression, the young use, what is it? You be you.

Oh my God, that's so weird, Jane. I've been thinking about that expression over the last couple of days and I wonder whether I've heard it somewhere very recently but yeah, you be you and I'll be me and there's something just so fantastically giving about that isn't there? You be you because it's very passive aggressive. I don't like you, you just carry on doing that. You isn't very good. If you want to. If that's the passive aggressive. Yes. Because I don't like you, but you just carry on doing that. You isn't very good. If you want to. If that's the best you can do, you be you.

Now, Sarah, there are still dribs and drabs of people who are catching up with Errol Musk. You don't have to, you really don't have to. And Sarah is one of those and she was left with a visceral deep disturbance and do you know what a couple of weeks on from that encounter that's exactly how I still feel about it too. But Sarah's email goes on to say on the subject of another far distant ship two teachers at my school were called Miss Drinkwater and Miss Pole Mounta. And I bet that they had no piss taken out of them whatsoever Sarah. Oh I shouldn't have think so for a minute.

This pole-mounter. My dear wise friend Francis subscribes to the Nation that life is sometimes a comedy and sometimes a tragedy but always a miracle. So here's to having fun with the comedy supporting each other through the tragedy and recognising the miracle. I really loved that sentence Sarah so thank you very much for that. Yes, it's funny, you know, I got into the house last night and there was a familiar voice on the wireless and it took me a while to tune into it. I thought, oh, I know this voice. Who is it? And I'm afraid to say Dora, during the day, she likes to listen to another radio station. Well, it must have been her who re-tuned to a different radio station. And it was Errol Mosk being interviewed.

No. This time by a man. And how did that go? Well, it did. It's interesting actually. He was, he cut a very, I listened to the end. I probably missed two thirds of the conversation. Who was he in conversation with? Andrew Maher. Okay. Yeah. And I mean, he ... Did you tell Andrew Ma to write everything down? No, he didn't. Nor did he reference the size of his man bag. So interesting, isn't it? I'm just, it's just an observation. That is very interesting. Yeah. Did he get onto his theory about which parts of society work harder?

I've chosen my words carefully. If he did, I didn't hear it in that part of the conversation. As I said, I had missed the body of the work. But he apparently gets on terribly well with Elon. He doesn't. He was a pretty terrible father, I think it's fair to say. And one of the results of that is the personality that Elon presents before us today. I don't think that's unfair, do you?

No. I know that for years they didn't talk. Yeah, well, to be fair to Andrew Mar, he did say that. But Mr Musk slightly danced that away. Yeah. I just feel, I will always feel spooked that so much interest is being taken by two men, so him and his son, in our country. It's just like you've got other, you've got problems in both places where you live. Too right. You've got some problems that you need to be dealing with there. So maybe just leave

us alone. We'll be alright. Yes, yes, quite. Absolutely fine without you. We're very grateful to the farming community who have contacted us this week. And obviously all we can do is read out the emails that we get. I appreciate there are many, many sides to this argument. But this is from Helen. My three siblings and I grew up on a farm in Sussex,

which my grandfather started renting in the 30s. My father farmed it all his life, never made a profit. Like most farmers, he saw himself first and foremost as a custodian of the land. He only avoided bankruptcy in the 90s because my brother agreed to take on the farm on a far less favourable farm business tenancy, also working incredibly long hours, seven days a week, working on other farms as well as his own to pay off the farm's debts and to keep afloat. Now although my brother does a lot of work behind the scenes on trying to get fairer deals for farmers, he didn't march in London on Tuesday. The inheritance tax issue is very hard on genuine family farms, but it's almost as if this is a smokescreen

for all the other ways in which the government's failing to support and protect farmers, so much that many are now having to sell their produce at a loss. There is a real problem with wealthy people and companies buying up farmland as a way of avoiding tax. We need to find a way of taxing these people, not the genuine farmers, and one way to do this would be to have active farmer tests. That way it wouldn't be hard to find out who is actually farming their land, as all farms are regularly inspected and HMRC could check farm accounts. So that's exactly what we suggested. Yeah and thank you very much. I wish I could read all of everything you've said Helen,

but that's the sort of main thrust. If you want to add another email to Ben, please do. You can always chip in over the weekend should you have a moment. But I think in France they actually you have to get a licence if you're a farmer. And that's interesting. That's another thing that perhaps, I suppose, HMRC could bring that in here. And that way, we would know exactly who was properly farming and who was land banking. But this is a subject that so many of us don't know a great deal about, because it's not our kind of background. But we've all got a lot to learn I think on both sides of this argument. It's interesting though isn't it that if the government is going to use the argument that not very many farmers will be affected by this which is exactly what they are

doing so by their estimate it's only about 500 farmers a year then you could equally argue using that statistic that it wouldn't take very long to check that those farmers exactly were and it's not like it's thousands and thousands and thousands so I might come back to back them on the bomb. Sheets says Jill McKechnie or McKechnie. I'm gonna go with McKechnie Jill. Come on, with your Scottish heritage you wouldn't be able to have a bash up there. Well, yeah, do you know what, that's quite difficult though, because in different parts of Scotland, the same word is pronounced completely differently. Did you see Shetland last night?

I did. I think it's getting better and better. Oh, I thought we were put in a bit of a holding position last night. Did you? With that episode, yeah. Oh. I feel it took me much further on. Oh no, I liked it. Oh did you? OK. It took me much further on. Oh no, I liked it. I liked the plot thickening.

The guy who's the spy handler, I'm fascinated by his hair. Well, Ian Hart's a great actor. Do you remember he was in that, oh god it was really traumatic, with Jodie Comer as working in a care home? Oh yes, Help. Help, that's right, yes, Help was quite fantastic. Blimey, it was a tough watch. Do you remember he was in that, playing the boss of the care home.

You're right. But completely bald. Oh! In that show. You've revealed something there. Look, he may have shaved his hair off for the part. Yes, he may well have done. I do think that there were so many people who said that Shetland wouldn't really survive without the talents of the previous lead actor playing Jimmy Perrott. You see, I didn't see that, so I'm...

But I think it's still good. I love Tosh and she's got a fringe that I envy as well. Have you ever been able to grow a fringe? Oh, I've had fringes. Have you? I've been on the fringe for years. OK. I've just never been able to. And then really weirdly, mum's got a photo of me when I was only about five or six years old with a really solid fringe. I just think, what happened?

Why can I do it then and I can't do it now? Well, that is bizarre. Yeah. Someone should do a PhD on that. I'm sure somebody has. Back to Jill. Good morning. Sometimes I think my life is mirrored by your podcast. It's because we are living the same life

you're living, Jill. Last week I dug out old sheets to take to my daughter after an operation preparations. The sheet was originally bought in 1974 from Brentford Nylons. My mum got very excited at these new non-iron sheets and bought various colours. Yellow for my brother and his girlfriend, blue for myself and my boyfriend. The sheets would be on the bed for our arrival, then on our departure we would fold them up and put them in the second drawer down in the bedroom chest of drawers. Yes, my mum gambled on us not being passionate under her roof and it worked. Can you be passionate in Brentford Nylon? I would.

Not with a risk of friction and the start of a fire. A mild electric shock. So 50 years on, the sheets are still going strong. Well done to Brentford Nylon poly cotton sheets. As I put them on my daughter's bed last week, I really felt the hand of history on me. As my late mum's voice came into my head. It was obviously worth carrying the sheets through my life and many house moves. So fingers to my ex who doubted me. That's a great sign of chill. So there is something so, so wonderfully comforting about

getting into a bed that does have the same sheets that you slept in in your childhood. There's something, no there is, my mum's still got the same IDA down. Oh has she? Yeah that we used to have and you know I think we're just a bit, I think we're a bit too cavalier in these modern times with our chuck it out and get something new. We're encouraged to all the time aren't we? So Jill I think that's fantastic and I love the fact that you know you just knew what to do. You took the sheet off the bed yourself. Yes, absolutely. That would be a lesson worth learning. My former mother-in-law, I mean she went mindless over, she would never throw anything out and she had a, I think she had a pretty good supply of ex-Yugoslav

army towels and they were excellent. You'd certainly give yourself a brisk rock towel. They sounded stiff. They were stiff. Very briefly Helen says I've got two sons and when I said I was stopping buying advent calendars my youngest reminded me that I still owed him four because of the age difference between them. You see I think that's completely right. Fast forward two years and he was moving out, so I bought him a socket set advent calendar to cover the remaining two years

and to start his own collection of tools. It actually went down a treat and he still uses it. And yes, it did include a box to keep it all in. There we go. That was the, is that the advent calendar by Screwfix? Halfords, Halfords, the Halfords advent calendar. Yeah it's very sensible, very practical. Yeah. I don't know if you do find that, I find that with my children, my youngest demands everything so that she has everything that the child three years older than her got. So if I were to stop buying advent calendars then she would want three more because that would be, she would believe her due.

Okay, final one from me comes in from Steve aka Steve-o as I'm called by the Aussies. Would you like an accent on that? Yes, let's, we've mentioned Adelaide, let's go back there. Steve-o! Hello ladies, I've been an avid listener since the fortunately days and can often be heard chuckling and loud whilst toiling around the house and garden. So it was uncanny when you mentioned changing the bottom sheet when I was actually doing just that. And yes, I am a man. T-t-t-t-t-t- within himself, Jo. Well, you know what? He probably is. You're a very,

very welcome listener. I lied actually. Here's another Stephen. We were talking about the use of names and bad names and funny names on the show yesterday and the best one Stephen has seen is a fridge shop in Hackney called... Oh, come on everybody! Sell fridges. Brilliant! Well worth squeezing in! Now it's hard to imagine the landscape of fertility now without the concept of IVF, a lifeline for couples struggling to conceive. It is the British medical advance that has meant millions of parents have got to be just that, parents. Without it quite simply they wouldn't.

And a new film called Joy tells the story of the development of the procedure. All of it was down to the perseverance of physiologist Bob Edwards, surgeon Patrick Steptoe, and embryologist and researcher Jean Purdy. And in the film, that heady trio are played by James Norton, Bill Nye, and Thomas Makenzie. It's a really lovely movie, by the way, and it makes you think how much times have changed, The Keddie Trio are played by James Norton, Bill Nye and Thomas Mckenzie.

It's a really lovely movie by the way and it makes you think how much times have changed our attitudes to that often difficult interface of science and belief in particular. And with us now are the co-creators of the film Jack Thorne and Rachel Mason. They are a husband and wife team in real life. Jack is the screenwriter behind National Treasure and Kiri and the Harry Potter stage play and Rachel is a comedy agent and they've got their very own personal experience of IVF2. Welcome to the programme this afternoon. How are you both? Good.

Very good. Excellent. I'm my little sister's a maths teacher. So yes, I completely agree about the creativity. Excellent. Oh, we love it when a plan comes together. Right do you want to start off actually just by telling us about that remarkable trio in real life because it was their determination and the fact that they brought their very different skills to the party that made the alchemy that made this happen is that right? It's absolutely right and they were extraordinary and

what they did over 10 years between 1968 and 1978 was remarkable and they did it with very little support. They did it with societal anger against them and they did it with the medical establishment sort of pushing against them, not giving the support they needed. And they worked in an outbuilding called Kershaws of Oldham General Hospital and with the help of a vast array of nurses led by the indefatigable Muriel and the volunteering of these women who came forward again and again and again despite knowing that they were likely to fail, they made the impossible happen. They birthed IVF and in 1978 Louise Joy Brown was born and that's where our title is taken from, her middle name. You're absolutely right to mention Muriel, the indefatigable matron, because if you were going to build a matron you'd build Muriel, wouldn't you?

Our favourite fact about her, we weren't able to get it, you know, there's end credits to the film that you go through so much discussion as to what you're going to put in those final cards. We wanted to celebrate Muriel because she then went with them to Bourne Hall where they continued their IVF work. And then when she retired, she decided her life wasn't exciting enough. And so she got a pilot's license and started flying. She was amazing.

Absolutely amazing. Rachel, just tell us a bit more about how infertility was viewed at that time. I've found myself close to tears at many points during the film. I think it is a really, really beautiful film. Some of the most poignant moments really are when women are talking about how society sees them when they can't have children. Yeah, which I think still holds today, but at the time certainly it was not talked about. There was so much stigma around it. I mean, I think there still is, but back then even in the women on the programme, they weren't able to say what they were doing. It was top secret, but the press were trying to get hold of information. So they were incredibly, the open crowd were very brave for stepping forward and really almost essentially being guinea pigs, knowing they were unlikely to get a pregnancy. But yes, it's the stigma, it can cause such isolation. So for us, it's about starting conversations out there about this

subject because people are probably scared of it, but people don't understand it. Inevitably, it'll be touching somebody they know. If it's not them, it will be a family member or a friend. But it's not much discussed. And certainly back then, definitely not. And I think the thing that I was very struck by, and I don't know how true the film is to this, but I suspect very, is a meeting where these three amazing people go along to see the medical council. And they're kind of told that actually infertility isn't a problem. It's not something that's wrong with the body. it's kind of God's will or nature's will. I mean that is quite something, isn't it?

Terrific and that was based, that's true, based on fact. Yeah, the MRC, and you know we had to be very careful there because we had to step legally very carefully, but yeah no, it was absolutely true that they went to meet the MRC and the MRC said this is not a medical problem, this is not something we see as significant and we are not going to support your work. So they didn't get the funding, which is why they're rattling around in the bowels of a hospital without heating for quite some time.

A hospital that Rachel was born in. Yes. Really? Gosh, the plan really does come together doesn't it? Can you share with us your own personal experience of IVF because it's actually all completely behind the film isn't it? Yeah well Jack's involvement he was approached and then asked me to get involved because of our experience. So we had seven rounds of IVF, which was a very tough time for both of us. So that is really informed us for the film.

I think there are many people involved. The director has two IVF boys, Amanda has an IVF child. So yes, but for me, I wanted to get involved because it challenged us as a couple in terms of going through that very quickly over a period of two years, back to back rounds and you know it nearly split us up which is not unusual and not uncommon. It caused eruptions with my sister who is also my business partner, you know the trauma and the impact of infertility issues cannot be underestimated. and the impact of infertility issues cannot be underestimated.

And Jack, I've read something which I thought was such a beautiful line where you said that writing is an empathy leap that relies on biography. Can you expand on that? Yeah, I mean there's lots of writers who've expressed this in different ways. You know, some say that writing has, you have to be cold inside in order to be able to abuse your family and steal their stories and make them your own. I like to think of writing as this sort of empathy box. I'm not very empathetic in real life.

I'm actually terrible. And during that IBM journey, I was rubbish for Rachel when she needed me most. That's not true. But when I'm sat with a computer, I think that's what I try and do. I try and get inside people and I love it. It makes the world make sense to me. And then if we get it right as writers,

and particularly with television or with streaming, where we're taking something into people's living rooms and we take them inside a story, then the good we can do with that, I think, can be remarkable. The bad we can do with it is also a problem. But hopefully if TV is used for for good I think it can change the world. Yeah well I'd definitely put this in the good category. Can you tell us a little bit more about Jean because actually her story is so striking and it's very sad actually as well isn't it? Yeah I mean she's the silent voice in this And Bob and Patrick always wanted her to be acknowledged, but she has been forgotten. She was essential to this process.

You know, she's the first embryologist. Without the three of these people pioneering and keeping going, persevering with this, we wouldn't have IVF, the situation we have now, we wouldn't have our son. But, you know, she was such a private person, she didn't want it, which is not unsurprising for a woman, especially at that point, that time. She didn't want to be in the limelight. She'd hide away from being photographed.

So we felt it was important that she is finally recognized. And actually, Bob campaigned to have her name on the plaque in Oldham and for her to be recognised. Yeah, but she died sad. I mean, we wish we could have talked to her about this. And she, as the youngest of the trio, there is a possibility we could have, but unfortunately she died at 39.

And she died in Bourn Hall. She died in the place that they, the clinic they set up for IVF once they'd left Oldham. And they made a room for her there, and that's where she died. She was truly remarkable and celebrating her is absolutely the heart of this film. And we see her in the film being ostracised by her mother, I mean cut off by her mother

who was deeply religious and saw her work as a sin and is that the truth of her life? and saw her work as a sin. And is that the truth of her life? There's some stuff we know about Jean and there's some stuff we don't know. She was incredibly religious, as was her mother. And she had the problem with endometriosis, but there were lots of threads that we had to pull on as writers

and try and work out the truth of it. that we had no one to talk to directly about her other than Gracie McDonald, who was one of the Owen Club. A lot of people that knew her a bit, but not a lot of people that knew her very well, and so we took what we could and we built it out. Rachel found in the Churchill archives, which Bob's papers were all put in archives at Churchill College, Cambridge, and she found some remarkable letters from Jean to Bob and lots of things like that that were very useful for trying to build her story out. Yeah, of course we know that in the end these three were successful, four obviously including Muriel, because we know about the birth of the first ever test tube baby, Louise Brown.

And I wonder how hard it is to create a film where you know that the audience know the ending. When we're working, I sort of thought of it as almost Characters of Fire, you know, that the ending will be known to a lot of people. The story the ending will be known to a lot of people, the story of it will be known to a lot of people, but the journey will be absolutely unknown and it was unknown and so charting that and taking people through that so that the end, it's a delivery you take them to at the end rather than a surprise, but the journey itself should

feel like a surprise, a joyful surprise. It is perhaps more important than ever at the moment as women's rights over their bodies are being rolled back and squashed, the individual pain of women in pregnancy, wanted or unwanted, is still so important to recognise, isn't it? And I know that you've said how we feel and talk about IVF in this country needs thinking about too, and I wondered in what way? Well there's two things to say about that. One is the fertility journey is a choice, right, is about women's choice, right, and when we talked to Andrew Steptoe, Patrick Son, again, something that had never been written about. There were three consultants at Oldham General and only one of them would perform abortions and it was Patrick. He always made it about women's right to choose.

And so that's huge. And what's happening in America in terms of IVF and abortion is really, really troubling. In our country, when they did this, they did this for all women. They did this for all parents, actually. This is for men and women. And they did it because they believed that fertility was a disease and that denying people the right to have that,

the ability to have their children, if it can be solved by medicine, should be solved by medicine. Now in this country, IVF is seen as a luxury good in the most part. If you get a round or two on the NHS, you're very, very lucky. And most IVF journeys do not end with a round or two.

It takes a lot longer than that. Louise Brown is a working-class woman that was born of working-class parents. And having a working-class baby in this country is a rarity, is an extreme rarity, because most IVF journeys are paid for and I think Bob, Patrick and Jean would all be appalled by that and would be campaigning to get the NHS to take fertility more seriously than it is. Yeah, well I think it's a really, really lovely movie. I enjoyed watching every minute of it so congratulations to the both of you and also I know that my colleague Jane Garvey would agree with me about this.

Quite often we talk to couples on Zoom and it's really difficult and everyone talks over each other and you two, you've done it very well, so congratulations. That was quite quiet. Yeah, you can go and have a round now if you'd like to. Rachel Mason and Jack Thorne. So I would highly recommend Joy. I think it is a really lovely, when it's a bit gloomy and dark outside, it's two hours of a movie where you will be a little bit

enlightened. I think you will definitely shed a tear and it just takes you back to a time that And it just takes you back to a time that I think we are wise to recognise for its importance. So there's a couple of screens that come up at the end of the film that tell you all of the facts about IVF. And I won't spoil it by talking about the numbers and things like that. But you do go, we watched it last night and we just went wow, that's so extraordinary that all of those lives have been enabled by this one medical advancement. So it's a lovely watch, really really lovely watch. It does sound perfect for the weekend. Which approaches, and you can see that film on Netflix, right, so it's there. If you have the flicks you'll be able to see it. And if you've actually

been through IVF, which I mean neither of us have, and it's not easy, it still isn't easy, is it? No, not at all. And we would obviously welcome your thoughts on the film if you've seen it, or just some of your thoughts on the procedure and process generally. Yeah. And I think just one final thing that I would say as well is you do well to spend a bit of time thinking about that mindset, which was that it's nature or it's God's will that a woman couldn't conceive. And that's creeping back into the language of politics in America and it's never gone away in some parts of the world. And it is just wonderful to see a movie about medicine.

And there are a couple of scenes in there where that is just challenged so brilliantly because you don't say that about other things that are wrong with humans. You don't say, well, it's just God's will. You don't call cancer God's will. You know, you assume that it's a disease that medicine may be able to help you with. But the connotations of infertility, which are so very, very different. So thank you. I know it's it's I'm looking forward to it. I haven't seen it, but I'm going to watch it at the weekend if I can squeeze it into my crowded domestic schedule.

Thank you very much for listening and continuing to be a part of this. Evie's really losing her will to live. It's Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by the new film Conclave, directed by Oscar winning director Edward Berger and in cinemas on November 29th.

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