Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Can you hear the snails raving in the streets? (with Kate Atkinson)

Episode Date: August 27, 2026

It’s the last episode of the podcast before Jane and Fi are reunited on Tuesday! Once Jane has dried off, she and Eve get down to business. They discuss enormous snails, the distant calls of damehood, unexpected weevils, and the confident man pose. Plus, best-selling author Kate Atkinson discusses her latest novel 'Our Noble Selves', set during the build-up to the Festival of Britain. The book series Jane mentioned was 'The Cazalet Chronicles' by Elizabeth Jane Howard. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Offair with Jane and Fee, with Jane and Eve. And Fee is back next Tuesday. Well, you're both back Tuesday. Yeah, exactly. Because you'll be off on the Monday. Yeah, because it's a bank holiday here. It's the August bank holiday. What with it being in August?

How did you come into work this morning? Well, I came in on public transport. My chariot that normally takes me to Times Towers didn't turn up, so I had to use. Well, other people were using it as well. extraordinary. Anyway, it was raining, wasn't it? So what state did I arrive in? We had to take Jane down to the makeup department to get a hairdry

for her blouse. Yes. And that's because I was then immediately, this is why I'm so tired that I was immediately called into service making a, what a short promotional film. I'd call it a public service announcement. A public service announcement. Are we allowed to talk about it now?

I think we are. Okay. About the New Times Radio studios. I mean, talk about Anorax If anyone... You did come in in one. I needed an anirac. If you are interested in radio studios, then you'll be riveted to hear that Times Radio does have a new studio, which has so far had what is known as a soft launch.

So it's being used, but we're not talking about it. I mean, I find this quite weird. But from next Tuesday, it'll be hard launched. It will be hard launched. And Jason... Jason. Jane has been the... the face of the hard launch.

Well, I think that's probably exaggerating it, but I have done some lines for a promotional video about the new studio, which, I mean, by the way, you can, how do people see it? They can see it on YouTube, can see it on YouTube. Exactly. So you can watch Times Radio on YouTube all day, every single show. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? And it is quite flashy studio. Yeah, this is a bit like telly.

It is a bit, it is a bit teller, isn't it? We need to sneak some more of our podcast props onto the shelves of the studio. We're going to have to just say to people, just give it a watch next week. Yeah, we'll leave some Easter eggs for the podcast listeners. Yeah, there'll be some little things on the shelving. It's an interesting studio set up. I actually quite like it in there. It's quite cozy.

It is weirdly cozy. It's likely to my surprise. I quite like it. But people will have a view, and we'd love to hear from you, Jane and Fee at Times.com Radio. And if you've never given the Times Radio station a listen or our show a listen, start on Tuesday. 2 o'clock till 4, Fee and I will be here.

who's our big guest on Tuesday? It's Ian Dale. He'll be live in the studio. He'll be live in our New Look studio, talking about his book about Margaret Thatcher, a divisive figure, but always, I think one always worth talking about. It's actually the paperback. It's the paperback.

So it's a new paperback of an existing hardback. Okay, I think that's probably too much detail. But thank you for that, Eve. Other guests next week, as advertised, Miriam Margulies and Scott Bryan. So lots to look forward to next week. Okay, now what was I going to talk about? Oh, I know, my guest today is the novelist...

We're not going to get anywhere if you're not sure what you're going to talk about. Regular listeners will know that I rarely know what I'm talking about, but I do have a vague idea when I come in, hard to believe. It was actually odd today because were you woken up by the rain? I was. I'm not sure. I must have been because I woke up about an hour before my alarm. Yeah, well, that was it then.

Which is quite right, for that is true, but I wasn't aware it was the rain, but then I saw it was raining and I thought, oh, lovely. so I opened my curtains, put some lights on and just sat in my bed and did a little bit of work and a little bit of admin. Work. Enjoying the cozy vibes. Yes, it did.

It felt autumnal, but it's not really, I think it's my least favourite weather, so it's wet but hot. Yeah, I arrive very clammy and sort of slimy to work. I saw an enormous snail. Actually going a pace up the wall outside. He's probably having a great time. I know, it was quite odd.

For a snail, it was a fun. Fast mover. It's probably been a very long summer for snails and slugs. Yeah, I haven't seen any up until this morning. Where do they go? Really good question. Do they dry out? Are we losing our snail population? I don't know. Why did they all, presumably, I can't have been the only person who saw an enormous snail this morning. Why did they all come out as soon as the rain came out? It was very weird. It's probably like a party for them. Yeah, well, is there an informal or formal gathering of Britain snail population over the next couple of days? Because I understand the way. is going to be a little challenging and I shouldn't laugh but my youngest has just gone off to a festival and um oh yeah I mean I did see a few people as well at the tube station with rucksacks and all the rest of it they're bold your generation aren't they you do love I mean credit to you you may not have been in the girl guides but by god you do festivals come rain or shine yeah I am I'm impressed I really am thank you for my generation your entire generation what has been your most memorable festival experience. Weather-wise, I went to Bestival. It was absolutely horrifically freezing and torrential.

Yeah, whereabouts in the country is that? It used to be in the Isle of Wight, but then it got moved to the mainland and then it stopped. And I know why. We, on the Sunday evening, we were so cold. We all, all the girls just piled into one tent for each other's body heat. And I could hear the festival happening in the next field over and we just couldn't even leave. Okay. The 10. It got closed for part of the days because bits of the stages were falling on people from the wind.

It was a great time. You paid for that? Yes. God. I did want to go home that night. That was crying for our mums. There is no shame. I've said that too.

I said, if you want to come home early, there's no shame in it. Look, thoughts and prayers with everybody under canvas as we speak, sheltering. Correction Corner, this is Rebecca. Sorry, Rebecca. I listened as always with huge pleasure to yesterday's podcast

and thought you'd be interested to know that BBC sounds. Who? It's currently serialising Patrick Bringley's All the Beauty in the World. It is completely immersive and very touching. Dane Jane, Jane, Jane, Jane, did you... Dame Jane, oh God, it's such a distant dream. Jane, did you mispronounce Bringley? Yes, I did. Possibly my hearing, but I'm sure you said boringly. And I took note of this because I thought it was quite reductive point to make at the time,

but I thought what an unfortunate saying? Her name. I should have questioned that. I don't know. Yes, you're absolutely right, Rebecca, I was a brat. It is, in fact, Patrick Bringley's All the Beauty in the World. But she goes on to say, like so many others in the hive, I take so much wisdom, knowledge, joy, humour and comfort from your podcast.

In this unsettling world, you are a unique constant to so many of us. You're my radio family. Oh, Rebecca, thank you. Dame Jane. Yeah, well, you know, shouldn't all together rule it out. I think I have. Tracy, I'm sorry to ask this again, she says, never apologise. I was listening to Laura Hackett and was interested in her recommendations for books,

especially one that she recommended to Jane at the end. And this is, again, a fault on my part. So the books we were raving about, and I cannot recommend them highly enough, are the Casillet Chronicles. So that's Casolet, C-A-Z-E-L-E-T, Chronicles by Elizabeth Jane Howard Tracy. They were written and they were written in the 90s actually. They're not as old as I thought they were, which is my own ignorance. They're about a family during the course of the 1930s, World War II and Beyond.

And a member of Elizabeth Jane Howard's family has written another book designed to be read after you finish the fifth of Elizabeth Jane Howard's books. So I think she's called Louisa Young. So that book has just been published, but it's not really worth reading that one unless you've read the Catholic Chronicles and I just can't recommend them highly enough. So get stuck in.

This brings me on to Amanda. I've lived in France for many years, addicted to your podcast, which remind me, oh, this is good, of great female humour. I was interested to hear a reference to the Casillet Chronicles of books. having my ear tuned to the French, I heard Casillet. Casolet. Casolet.

Casolet? Oh, God, I'm really making a meal of this. Casolet is an amazing dish from around the Castel Nordre area of southern France, which includes slow-cooked sausage, pork and beans. That should be interesting, I thought. So I googled Casolet Chronicles, expecting to come across stories of durring do. and cooking tales in the time of the Black Prince. But I just found pages of rival recipes from the area,

each claiming to be the original. I finally got there, found Elizabeth Jane Howard, and I now look forward to reading the books. Amanda, enjoy yourself in La Belle France. Thank you very much for being a devoted listener. Well, I've decided that you are a devoted listener of the podcast. Yes, Casillet, I should have asked our guest yesterday, Jay Rayner about Castellet.

I've had it. It's actually, that dish, I know you won't eat it because you're a vegetarian, that dish just confounds me. I can't take on all that pork and beans because I worry that somewhere embedded in it there'll be some gristle. And I'm very gristle and fat resistant. Where do you stand on a fry-up? Well, I'm all right if I can see inside the sausage. So I cut it in the middle and have a good look to make sure there's no little balls of fat or anything like that. Is someone going to end up sending in a photo of you happily talking into a castle? Because I'm the woman who's constantly contradicting himself.

I just plain lie. Let's face it. We've had a number of very artistic emails this week, and I'm extremely grateful. Sarah joins us from Ledbury, which, if you've never been to Ledbury, have you been there? I have not. Oh, well, can I really recommend it. It's a lovely bustling market town in Herefordshire, close to the Morven Hills. I've never lived there

but it must be a lovely place to live Do we have quite a few listeners from there? I feel like it gets a couple of shoutouts on the podcast. I really hope so. Yeah, I really hope so because I spent a bit of time in LeBerry when I was working in local radio there and it's just, I think it's just a gorgeous place and I particularly like the independent shops

they've got in the town centre. It's just a really nice place to visit and Herefordshire generally is apart from the Hay Festival which is in Wales anyway I think Herrifo can get a bit forgotten and it shouldn't be forgotten it's beautiful. I caught your piece about Anish Kapoor, says Sarah in Lebray, and just wanted to say,

I found him to be a very lovely person to discuss art and making with back in my art college days. So Sarah actually met him. He was my tutor, in fact, in the sculpture department at Portsmouth Polytechnic. He was just a few years older than us, experimental fine art students. And I recall having really long chats with him, as he rather loosely used to sit back, arms behind. his head explaining how to make this and that. Now that's a look, isn't it? You can picture that, can you? It's an artist's work.

That very much is a sort of, I don't know, just a man who just wants to share his experience and is quite relaxed in doing so. What comes first, the look or the art? Gosh, good question. I was once interviewed by a man who was so, this is for a job, which I didn't get. This man was so overconfident

that he put his hands up like this. above his head and it was a hot day and he had massive sweat patches but he was so pleased with himself but I don't think he cared no I'm sure he didn't didn't get on terrifically well with him

which might explain why that particular conversation stroke interview did not in did not actually result in employment that surprises me right I had long chats with him as he rather loosely used to sit back yes here we are we can all picture it now he talked about how his powder cake

pure pigment sculptures were influenced by the extraordinary landscapes of his youth. We had some really terrific chats, and particularly about his early works, which I really loved, transient pyramids of powder, which would collapse if touched.

It's very interesting, isn't it? I know that his recent works look rather overwhelming, Jane, and I'd struggle to describe them or truly explain. The scale is off the scale, I guess. So is that what makes it extremely abstract? I don't know. I'm very late to all this, she says,

but I wanted to chip into the chat before my 66-year-old brain forgot. Good to have Eve back. She's very funny. Well. Thank you. Ashley, should we talk... No, we're not going to talk about

the mistake you made. No, no, we can't. Sarah, thank you. Because that is, but it is funny. Sarah, thank you very much for that. And how interesting that you've met Anish Kapoor, and honestly, that description of him, just sitting back and just talking to his students

who weren't that much younger than him about how he did what he did, is, yeah, it's brilliant. Thank you. Really appreciate it. We won't. I mean, if only we could talk about Eve's mistake. We can't. I don't make mistakes. Everything happens for a reason. It's a stake with Anish Kapoor several years ago. And actually, this is an email not just about Anish Kapoor, but about a travel experience, because we were talking about this at the end of the podcast yesterday. This is from Emily in Edinburgh. Several years ago, I was traveling to Chicago with my now ex-husband and we went through immigration control separately, as we thought it might

be faster. Turns out that was a mistake as it made us look suspicious. My ex is British with Indian heritage and was stopped for a prolonged period where US immigration control were absolutely adamant that he was illegally importing curry leaves to the US. After an extended search and the failure to locate any curry leaves, we were free to leave. It was funny afterwards, ish, I imagine, but not so much at the time. He also experienced quite a lot of racism in Eastern Europe, notably somebody putting gun fingers to his head, and that was scary. Jesus.

Yeah, these things are, they really do happen to people, and I think so many of us, because they don't happen to us, we need to know that it does happen to other people. Chicago, says Emily, it was where I first came across Anish Kapoor. I really loved his Cloudgate, aka Beas. sculpture, but most of all enjoyed reading about how he forbid any other artists using Vanta Black, leading to another artist creating the pinkest pink and forbidding Anish Kapoor from using that one.

Okay, I did not know that he'd made Vantra Black something only he could use. Have you heard about Vantra Black? Is it the Black is Black? The Blackest of All Blacks, yeah, which looks like, and it is incredibly clever because it really does make you think you could tumble into it. Yeah. And it's quite disturbing, but also quite impressive. I like the fact that the opposite to that was the pink as pink.

Yes. Which, interestingly, I don't think you'd think you could jump into because it's not that kind of colour, is it? No. I mean, what is the pink as pink? Is it a hot pink? Is it a soft pink? Or is it a soft pink?

Then you'd feel like you've been swallowed by a human being. Right. Let's bring in Anonymous, whose email is headlined. Am I the only person having a weev all summer? I don't know about this, but I'm going to read it out. She's in a right two and eight, this correspondent. I will say she's female. I've got guests coming this weekend, so I'd better remain anonymous.

Is there anything worse than guests coming for the weekend? Truly, let's just be honest about it. Who really wants them? I mean, what is it, they say? You should only be a house guest for, is it three days? maximum of three days or less I don't know there will be rules

and some of you will know what they are there's that expression about fish isn't it but it seems the guests never know the rules well that's the problem you know just little and often actually just little not often necessarily if you're a visitor

anyway there have been many things triggered says anonymous by the long hot summer in the south of England as well as a hose pipe ban I've had to throw out most of my dry goods stored in the kitchen Have you had anything like this? I haven't had anything like this, but I've had a similar sort of experience.

Anonymous, don't worry too much because I've had a lot of ants in my kitchen. I've been very aware of that. Well, you read the email and then I'll tell you what happened to me. All right. These have included six types of flour, gluten-free and normal, rice, pancake mix and oats. I haven't checked my custard powder and corn flour, but I probably should. Even unopened packets of flour have had small, black, wriggly things in them? Are they weevils? This seems shameful and off-putting for guests,

so I have kept quiet about it. Am I the only person suffering this infestation? Some of my dry goods have even been in-date. My gosh, this woman is so posh. She's got in-date dry goods. Will anybody else own up to this, or is it really just me, Anonymous? I know your name, but I will never reveal it. Thank you. So does an anonymous think that the heat has brought this about? Well, I think she's probably right. What would cause that? I don't know, because I'm not a weevil expert. No.

But there is no doubt that after a very hot summer, particularly if you're having visitors, I mean, we are heading towards Christmas, lest we forget, it might be not a bad idea just to, I mean, I'm really not, I haven't done it myself, I should say, open those packets of things like cornflower that you...

Just check. You don't use very often, but you've got in the back of the cupboard, they may or may not be in date. I mean, who knows what's going on in there? Anyway, what happened to you? So I had an experience where I ordered a parcel of clothes from a very well-known clothing store.

Yeah. And upon arrival, I was sat with my housemate and I opened the parcel of clothes whilst we were watching TV onto the sofa and out fell a load of maggots. What? Yeah. How?

What? And I literally jumped up and I shook them all off and I screamed and ran out into the garden. I put the parcel out there, and what they think happened was that a flyer laid eggs in the warehouse. Right. And now I am so careful. Never open your parcels over your bed, over your furniture. I always do it outside or on the floor.

They literally poured out. Okay, thank, thank you. Sorry. I felt like I was on I'm a celebrity. Where are they now? Well, I took the whole parcel out into the garden. And I just shook it all out. And I left them to kind of, I left the clothes to.

to quarantine. Have you, have they been on a hot wash? I hardly dare ask this question. Well, so I did get my money back, but also the parcel, the clothes were all then individually wrapped. Right. So the maggots were just in the... It's quite a high quality place you're buying this gear from. Well, is it? The maggots were in the wider casing. Right. So I did keep some of the clothes. My God, is there anything we can rely on this? Isn't that horrific? Yeah, it was a really disgusting experience. Really ruined my evening. Let's cheer ourselves up by talking about the charms of Cornwall. Angela has recently returned.

I've just got back from a week-long trip to Cornwall. We used New Key as a base. We went to Port Isaac, Padstow, the Lizard, Lanz End, Mullen Cove, Lou Penzance, Pulpero, the Eden, that's a lot of, I'm in Cornwall, Red Ruth's and Ives. And we still didn't touch the sides of everything there is to see and do there. The scenery across the county and the wild, frothy, turquoise, Celtic, and English Channel, crashing onto the beautiful white sandy beaches

and against the black, rocky coastline is stunning and unforgettable. Wow. Angela does work for the Cornish tourist board. No, she does. But she could do, blammy. Adding in the delicious pasties, fish and chips, cream teas, plowments and ice creams, and even the thieving seagulls, it was such a memorable trip, and we enjoyed every single minute of it.

Well, that's really good. That's good, Angela, thank you. you're such a great time. Back to Liverpool, I located Doc Martin on ITVX. This is helping to wean me off the excitement of Cornwall and back to the day to day here on Merseyside. I use the frequent ad breaks to put a wash in, make a cupper or nip to the loo. It's just like being back in the 70s. There is a version of ITVX you can get without so many ad breaks, isn't there? But I haven't got it and there are a lot of ad breaks. You can pay a subscription. You can pay a bit more. Yeah. So far, I have resisted the table.

temptation to order a pizza, book or cruise, or take out an emergency cash flow loan, but I am considering switching dog food brands. So she's been quite heavily influenced. I'm now up to series three of 10, and there have been so many laugh out loud moments already, I'd recommend it as a daily tonic. It is all the more enjoyable because I've been to Port Isaac and I've enjoyed a cold drink in the crab and lobster, real name Golden Lion. I've had lunch at the slipway and an ice cream from the pharmacy and I've posed for picks outside the surgery, the school and Louisa's house with the tiny door. Poldark is next up for the Cornish binge watch. Get down to Cornwall, you will not regret it, says Angela. Do you know, I don't think I've ever seen an episode of Doc Martin. Have you

watched it? Really? I haven't ever seen it. I've quite tempted now. My mum's watched it, so I've kind of seen it on in the background. Right. So I feel like I've absorbed the vibes. Okay. Well, I mean, there couldn't be a more full-bodied endorsement that Angela's Our guest today is the novelist Kate Atkinson. I mean, I raved about her anyway because I love all her books. Her new one, honestly, Eve, it's so good. And I'm a big fan of social history. It's very much up your street, I think.

Yeah, it is up my street. But anyway, we'll hear from Kate Atkinson in a minute or two. But there's a couple of emails here that are well, well, worth reading out. First of all, this is from, well, I will keep her anonymous. I'm not sure she's asked to be, but anyway. She's attached a video of a shelf I saw in Tesco, this afternoon. At first, I found it amusing, but the more I thought about it, actually, the more enraged I became. I saw it whilst shopping for household bits for my children going to

uni in September, one starting the first year, one going back for the second year. Well, Tesco was awash with products and displays clearly aimed at this very event, and it had a lot of great supplies, for which I was genuinely very grateful. However, I was dismayed to see this shelf in all its misogynistic glory. I'm sure you can describe it to your listeners, but can you do it without swearing? Well, I'm just going to carry on reading your email, Caroline, because I think you do it brilliantly.

It is clearly marketed towards women with the bright pink and duck egg blue branding. And there's just something weird for me about the combination of hand and nail care alongside cleaning products and the horrifyingly casual inclusion of pregnancy tests. What really winds me up is the repeated use of the phrase, keep it handy.

Nail clippers, keep them handy just in case you break a precious nail whilst doing all the housework. Pregnancy tests, keep some handy, just in case you have another, oopsie, you silly poppet. What are we ladies like, eh girls? Scrubbing the sink one minute, being knocked up the next. I shuddered that this was all mingled in the household goods and cheap university kit aisle, especially as the go-to was pregnancy tests and not condoms. My husband thinks there must be some kind of consumer research that indicates that these products are often brought together by a specific demographic,

leading to this combination of products appearing on shelves in this manner. He doesn't condone it, he wouldn't dare, but I thought it was an interesting take. Should this be renamed the Trad Wife section? Yes, says our listener. I am currently reading, yesterday year. Anonymous, thank you very much. To me, I think it's just horribly reductive, she says, and quite lazy on the part of Tesco, but I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on it. Do you know, I've had the book yesteryear, buy my bed now for months, and I still haven't read it.

Have you read it? I haven't, no. It is the Trad wife book, isn't it? Yeah, I should definitely make the effort to read that. Thank you for that. I must confess, I have, that is one of my local supermarkets. I go very regularly. I haven't seen that aisle. Thank you for the video. you've sent, so I absolutely appreciate that what you're saying is right. It is frustrating that pregnancy tests are there and apparently not condoms. That does seem odd. I think there's nothing wrong with making pregnancy tests accessible in a shop floor and that maybe it's away from the kind of like stigmatised area where you don't want to hang around

and there's leaves and all these sort of things where you're sort of seen hovering near an area. I think there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't think that that's what this is. I think the pinkness and the household cleaning, I completely agree with the correspondent that. Yeah, it's not the same. Yes, if you've seen that and you've got a view on it, do let us know at Jane and Fee at times.com radio.

This is from another anonymous correspondent, and it's a passionate email, and I hear you. She says, as a mum of three youngish people, one at uni going into the third year, one just got A-level results a week ago, soon off to uni, one just had GCSEs. I'm one of the unfortunate parents who've had this summer anticipating two different sets of results and navigating the decisions prior and after them, the turmoil, the emotional exhaustion and the extraordinary effort required to be that person who the teens need to say what they need to hear.

I have felt seen and reassured when this time in life generally and results day itself was described by Jane last week as traumatic. I totally agree. I experienced so much anxiety about what is ahead for my children, in terms of housing, job market, AI, climate crisis, online world, mental health, unemployment, student debt. In my head, I struggle to escape it, despite being at a point where I should feel able and desperately want

to celebrate their fabulous achievements and exciting next steps. What I'm noticing is that this has happened in part because I just can't escape the doom and gloom narratives that exist everywhere regarding the world our young people are in. Every podcast, and I mean, I have to say that we have certainly been a part of that, or I certainly have, I appreciate that. Online news platform, social media feed over the last couple of weeks has been telling me persistently that they'll leave college or uni

and face an impossible job market which will mentally break them, that the choices of careers they've made or are considering are now considered pointless because of AI, that we're all going to suffer with catastrophic climate change, they'll be crippled by debt, university isn't worth it, universities themselves are crumbling, the streets aren't safe, I could go on. The negative messaging is constant, invasive and deeply upsetting.

I really want some optimism for my grown-up kids. I try and bring this to them myself with blue-sky thinking and a sense of lightness, trying to motivate and reassure them. But not only do they see through it and often feel pretty fed up with the reality they're being battered with left right and centre, I also feel I can't continue waving this flag of hope for them

without the world around us, cutting them some slack and starting to deliver something, anything, positive and inspiring for them. Is it just me? Am I in a silo of negativity or are other parents feeling this too? Well, if you are, please do tell us

at Jane Fee at times dot radio, but I do hear that, And I think it's a passionate plea for a bit more positivity. And I think we should be a bit more positive and we should try to, should we try next week. Yes. Not today. Not today.

Well, no. It's too much for today. Well, it is a bit too much. Although I am going to end with the funny, you know. Do you find yourself feeling that way as a mother? Well, sometimes I do. I mean, it's one, I do, do know, I do in the wee small hours of the morning, I suppose we do worry about, yes, what life might be like.

I wonder almost if it's, just like the sentence of a mother. Yes, as a parent, are you simply condemned to worry? And I'm still a daughter. My dad is, you know, quite frail, and I've got that. But I'm far from alone. I mean, this is such a common experience. And you do worry about, funny enough, one of the things I worry about,

I wonder if anyone else does think about this. I wonder what life will be like when your generation are old. I've been thinking about that lately. What, how will care work for you? because so many of you are going to live such a long time what will that be like? And then you realise, and this is idiotic, you realise at 20 past 3 in the morning

that you won't be around to help your children because you'll have died and rightly because nobody can live forever. But what will life be like when, yeah, I think about that a lot. Because it's funny to think how much the landscape has changed since you were children to now so much has evolved, I assume, I wasn't exactly there, but from what I know. You weren't there at all.

You weren't not know what you were not exactly there. weren't there. And so are we going to have that same level of progression and evolution over the next kind of 50 years? So it is really hard to imagine what it could look like. Well, we're not helping our listening. So to that woman, I absolutely, you're not alone. Trust me, I think so many people, not just parents, so many people look at the stage of the world and think, oh. But actually, this isn't a bad time. We'll do the funny email right at the end. But this isn't a bad time to bring in our guest, the novelist Kate Hackinson, because her book, her new novel, Our Noble Sells, is about Britain in 1951,

and it's about the festival of Britain, and it's about the people who made it happen, but the stories that those people were carrying, because so many of them had had wartime experiences that they either shuddered to remember or weren't allowed to talk about because they'd done all sorts of slightly, should we say, off the books kind of things,

for Britain, and then there were other people, people who had been, shall we say, far too sympathetic towards fascism before the war and then had to deny it afterwards. So there's such a lot, as always with Kate Atkinson's books, there's a lot going on. But the great thing about our noble selves is it's also incredibly funny. Here she is. Kate Atkinson is here. She's one of my favourite novelist. Kate is lovely to see you. How are you? I'm very well. Thank you. Lovely to be back here. Well, it's great to have you. And your new novel is not out quite yet. So I know your fans have asking, well, can I see it? Can I get it now? You can't. 10th September. Okay, you can

always pre-order it. It's called Our Nobleselves. Now, you are, amongst many other things, the creator of the hugely popular Detective Jackson Brody. People love those books. And then you have other novels that greatly enjoyed life after life, transcription, shrines of gaiety and behind the scenes at the museum. That was your breakthrough. That would won the Whitbread Book of the Year. It did. Either 95 or 96, I can't remember. that was, I'd spend a long time thinking about that book before anyone asked me if I had, I think I won a short story competition and there was a do. Right.

And a woman came up to me, an agent, and said, do you have a novel in the drawer? Because that's what people say to you for some reason. And I said, I've got three chapters and then she took them. And so after having thought about it for a long time and wanted to write a novel for a long time, suddenly it was bought, it was auctioned and it was bought and I was just horrified because I thought, no, I have to write it now. And it's all very well thinking about it, but actually writing it is properly tough, isn't it? Well, actually, I think I thought about it for so long that I wrote it really, really, really fast. And I think, for me, that's a rule of thumb that if I think

about it long enough or unconsciously think about it in the back of my head, then I can write it faster. It's when I start without having really thought too much about it that I get stuck. Can we just go briefly go back to the short story competition? you won. That was a woman's own magazine. Well, first of all, I won the Ian St. James short story, or I came second. I can't remember. But I won the woman's own short story competition. Yes. That was the most exciting moment of my life, I think.

How old were you at the time? Good question. Mid-80s, mid-30s, maybe. Because I had been not writing commercially at all until that point. And I'd written a lot of, oh, well, with me, kind of semi-autobi And the story that I submitted to a woman's own was the very, very first one that was not about me in any way she had performed me. It was entirely fictional. And I think that was a great lesson to me. It's just right fiction. Don't bother with the self. And whoever it was, the literature at the time, phoned me. And I was just like, this is it then. That's it. You know, finally I've, because I'd had an accountant for a year when I wasn't earning any money whatsoever. And he said, what do you do? And I said, I'm a writer. And I had no proof of it. at all. And I thought it was very important to somehow lay down this fact. Yeah. And, you know, believe it and it will be so. So have you stuck with the accountant? No. But sorry about that. Sorry, Steve. He was very good for what he did.

Steve, if you're listening. So you're so brilliant always on social history and I'm always so absorbed by the detail you have in your novels. Now, our noble selves is set at that it was a tricky time for Britain. 1951. It's about a group of people working behind the scenes at the Festival of Britain. Now, for some listeners,

they're not going to know much about the Festival of Britain. I was very surprised how virtually nobody knows anything about the Festival of Britain. And I think that's interesting because it was created and performed, as it were,

as an ephemeral event. And that's just exactly what it's been. It's just gone. I mean, it took place in 51 and I was born in 1951 and I've had a couple of other books that I've set in 51 so I'm obviously slightly obsessed with that year, I think. But I've always known about it but not known much about it.

It's always just been one of those things that I think at my age you probably do have at the back of your head whereas I think anyone younger than, or anyone younger than me, to be honest. Well, it's interesting. One of my guests next week is Miriam Margulies. And I mentioned to her that I was interviewing you this week and she said, well, I went to the Festival of Britain, and she's 85.

So people older than you absolutely have very significant memories of it. Yes, and so many school children, because there were lots and lots of school trips, but so many children who went vividly remember it. So what was it designed to do? At the very beginning of our noble selves, you've got a Noel coward verse. I'm just going to read it, don't make fun of the festival, don't make fun of the fair. We downtrodden British must learn to be skittish and give an impression of devil may care, which is very Noel coward.

Sounds very noble-gown. Not surprisingly because it was not a cup. It was designed to what? Just get us all going a bit? In a way, yes, I think so. It was a project of the Labour government, which was actually in its dying... At least government.

Yes, it was about to be kicked out. And I think they saw it as something that would gee people up. I mean, they say, a tonic for the nation. That's the quote. But I think it was also, you know, from 45, to 51. It didn't really feel like the war was over or let the war was over, but what had we won? The rationing was still on the go. Rationing was still on. I was born on the ration. I didn't see a suite until I was about three. That was the end, obviously. But I think it was to,

not just to cheer people up, as it were, but to show them that, yes, we are coming out of this. You know, all of these dark days. I mean, when I really think of my childhood, it's dark. it's dismal. You know, we had sort of 30-watt light bulbs or less. That's sickly light. It's sickly light. Exactly. I have a distinct memory of my mother plugging the iron into the ceiling light.

I just think how dangerous is that? Very. Very. She lived. She lived. And I think it was, because it was, you know, there was lots of science in it, lots of pavilions that were showing the kind of experiments and inventions that were coming. It's a bit like Tomorrow's World in a way.

I think it must have been walking around some of those exhibits in the Dome of Discovery. It must have been exactly like Tomorrow's World. It's all a bit Millennium Dome. And some of the mood of the characters in your book was, it reminded me of the London Olympics. The general view being the 2012 Games, I'm talking about here, the general view being that, oh, they'd be rubbish. But of course they weren't rubbish. They were amazing and everybody fell in love with the whole concept.

When the Festival of Britain happened, it was hugely popular. It was. Eight million people, I think, visited it. And those, you know, who's still alive have very vivid memories. And I think it was just one of the things it had, which nobody had had, as bright lights. They were really, you know, looking across to the South Bank must have been amazing because nobody had seen lights. Nobody had seen people trying to show them, you know, like cold milk. There was a cold milk bar. It was a dairy bar. And there were people many, many, many. people who never had a cold drink unless it was, you know, the milk on the doorstep freezing.

Yes, which isn't quite the same. And soft toilet rolls are. I was at a very strange, eccentric primary school. But we had, you know, ISIL toilet paper. We didn't have soft toilet paper. So these things that now we never, I mean, my grandchildren would just be, like, they would not, they would not understand 1951. No, we're getting some lovely messages. Ben says, my 91-year-old grandmother has got fond memories of the Festival of Britain. and she often tells me about the day she went to the festival with the firm where she worked at the time.

She does have dementia now, but I'm going to buy this book and I'm going to read it out loud to her. That's rather nice, isn't it? And Kate says, I love Kate Atkinson's books. I've just finished an English degree. I found myself unable to read for pleasure for a while, but I picked up behind the scenes at the museum, and it absolutely rekindled my love of literature. Thank you, Kate. Oh, excellent.

Paul says the Festival of Britain was also in, 1951 because it was 100 years on from the great exhibition. Right. And we're planning to make much more of that. And in the end, I think they got to sort of a sort of, at the scene of photographs, an odd little archway that was the nod to it. But originally that, where the idea came from. So, you know, 100 years on, we'll show where we've come.

And particularly where we're going, because it was about, you know, marching on cheerfully into this future of modern wallpaper and new kinds of chairs. And soft blue rocks. Maybe. Yes. But as ever in your books, your characters are a rackety cross-section of humanity. And in this case, because of the year in question, the people were all carrying, the characters are carrying burdens of one sort or another. Terrible memories in the cases of some people.

Experiences that they are not supposed to share with anybody else. And we're probably never supposed to tell anybody about. And I'm sure there are still people maybe not around quite today. but people who've died within the last decade who never told us, told anyone what they did. I mean, on more than one occasion I have heard, or maybe probably read in a newspaper, of adult children whose elderly parent, father, has died.

And when they've gone in the attic to clear out, they've found a whole memoir that they've written of, you know, because they could never tell anyone, but they had to somehow make it more objective by writing down their experiences. So I think I do say at the end of the book, you know, that most people who come back from war, those men who come back from war don't talk about it.

So when we read all the memories and the memoirs and the biographies and the biographies, we somehow think that's a much greater section of people than it is. But in fact, most are not going, you know, men coming back from the trenches are not going to come back to their wives and sweethearts and children and start telling them what it was like because, you know, why would you? Well, your central character here is a man called Harry Flynn. Now women find him irresistible, which I like. That's strange, isn't it?

Well, I couldn't quite work out why, but listen, I'm sure. He was lovely. Initially we meet him. I think he's wearing a demob coat. A greasy. A greasy d-mock coat. Yeah. But interestingly, and I think this is so important, he hasn't been in combat. So tell us a little bit about Harry Flynn. I think, I can't remember, because it seems a long time since I started the book. So I can't remember if originally I wanted him to have been in combat. But he was a journalist. He was a journalist in London. And he covered the beginning of the Blitz and got ill. And it was suggested to him that he'd go out as a foreign correspondent. to Singapore. And at the time, there was this myth about Singapore, Fortress Singapore, those were the words that were always bad, and about, that it was impregnable, you know, that they would, you know, its guns faced out to sea, so it would stop all, you know, the Japanese could not, could not take Singapore.

And they took it in like two days. So it was, he was there for the fall. I was going to have this whole thing, the fall of Singapore, and how it's experience of the fall of, how his experience on the Burmys Railway, all of these things. And in the end, I just thought, this doesn't fit,

this doesn't sit right with the rest of the book. Because it's quite a larky sort of book. It's very, I need to emphasise this. It's extremely funny. And if you love Britain, and most of us, we do, even though it drives us mad in its various idiosyncrasies, but there's still so much charm and decency about the country, actually.

And it's celebrated in this book, a lot of that, I think. I think so. And I think in a way that is a good thing that all those men came, well, the ones who are my characters who are working in the office, come back to that. That's the sort of a normality that they're able to take up again, I think, even though, you know. I think in the acknowledgments at the end of the book, you do say you wanted to write a different book, as you say, emphasising the Harry Flynn's experience that you just couldn't. I just thought, because the experiences are so awful. Obviously all experiences of war awful, but on the right, but on the right. away. There was something particularly grotesque about the level of violence, I think, and the experiences of those men. And I just thought, how do I fit this in with the festival of Britain and these, you know, comic, semi-comic characters and this whole plot that's going on? It just doesn't fit. And I thought, I can't do it. It was a bit like I never could write about

the First World War and instead I wrote about, you know, the aftermath of the First World War and the clubs and someone in Shrines of Gayety. I thought, it's really, I could make. it more powerful by only giving you glimpses of Harry's war. Yeah. Because then you just, you sort of flinch at it because it suddenly comes from nowhere. Well, I literally did because I think at some point he's in conversation. I don't want to give too much away about the book, but he's in conversation with somebody. And he thinks about eating a live mouth, yes. Which I read a lot of memoirs and autobiographies of men who'd been on the railway and that was something that struck me particularly, when I read that, that's just extraordinary how far you can be driven from what you would think

as your life before the war, you know. And I think it's that need to return to a life where you don't eat live mice, I think, is very important. And I think, you know, I can understand why you don't want to talk about it and why you just put the lid on it. And I thought, well, that's, for me, it's a more realistic way of approaching it, is to keep that lid on occasionally, lift that lid and go, oh, that sounds horrible. And it's only at the very, very end that he gets a whole page of memories of the fall. And I've tried to make that as strong as possible, because I thought this is all you're going to get of what he experienced.

And it has to be part of his, it has to be part of his character as well, I think. So I'm not suddenly going to go, and this happened, and this happened, this happened. Because although I do do that. I'm saying a slightly better way than that. You're much better than you're making yourself sound. We should say that Harry has moved on and he's actually, we find him, well, he's living on his own because he had a non-successful marriage to a lady called Ivy. Oh, I love Ivy Shears, yes. Ivy Shears from Wealdstone, which I think you're quite hard on Wealdston.

And he's left Ivy, but he actually is rather close or becomes much closer to her daughter. And a really touching friendship is established between those two. I think because Harry has never had the ability to love, although so you think so. and he suddenly lost any ability he has to love. To find that awakened by his stepdaughter, I thought, was, it was very important that I couldn't really find another way of him to be redeemed by love, really. There was not going to be a woman who was going to do it. And the Sunday wasn't a woman in this book who's going to do it.

But then I always knew I was going to bring Veronica back at a kind of a particular pivotal moment in the book and that she would be completely oblivious to all of this emotional stuff. Yes. She has no idea what's going on in his life. mind. She's a great character. You're right. I liked Ivy. There's another standout character I want to mention in a minute. But I do want to talk about the Festival of Britain and the other characters, the people who worked there, many of whom either, well, they claim to have done one thing in the war. We're not sure whether they did that thing or whether they were actually working for somebody else.

And then there must have been a whole host of people who hinted that they were actually doing all sorts of secret operations in World War II, but weren't doing anything of the kind. I mean, you could basically invented all, couldn't you? Yes. I think there's a kind of catfishing element. Yes, yeah. Absolutely. Yes, and particularly because there is spying going on in this book, so you know, you can never trust a spy, obviously. So I think I needed to make everything seem ambiguous and ambivalent without really annoying the reader, because sometimes you could be so mystifying that readers are like, well, I don't even know what happened at the end there. So I think you have to, for me, it says a lot of balancing has to happen, I think.

We don't talk much, and I understand why, about the extent of support for fascism in this country before the Second World War. But you do in this book. I mean, did you think that was important? I think having written transcription, which is all about the fifth column and how they were sort of neutralised at the early years of the war. And I thought, well, it's an irritant. It has to still be there because people didn't live. lose their beliefs because they lost the war. So I think, you know, obviously it's a kind of worldview that gets revived occasioning it evolves.

But I think at the time, it really was a very minor thing because I think people are just not going to bother with it for a few years. But there were people left who are in this book who are still, you know, fellow travellers that still believers, they still need to be, still need to be neutralised. in fact. I also needed a really evil character so that seemed a kind of a good path for him to be on. Yeah, you absolutely, you've managed that triumphantly. And the character that are people, I mean, first of all, she has the best name in any book I've read forever,

Mitzi Blinkhorn. Mitzi Blinkhorn, yes. Celebrity chef, I suppose. Well, she's clearly based on a real person. But again, as with the Festival of Britain, it has always amazed me how many people have never ever heard of Fanny Craddick. I can't believe it.

People really, they must have heard of Fanny Craddock. I send them immediately to YouTube in the Christmas special because there's no better introduction. But I didn't, I was a bit, I mean, she is inspired by Fanny, this character, but I didn't want to make it. I thought, well, you know, Fanny Crannock's going to have living relatives. I don't want to make it seem. What was her husband called? Johnny. Johnny, he was the wine, the wine buff.

He provided the wine. He had a monocle, I seem to remember. Right. Yeah. And, you know, they gave exhibition. They were on stages and full evening dress, showing people how to cook. Just quite bizarre. Mitzie Blinkhorn is a bad lot.

She really is. But there's no suggestion Fanny was... No, no, no. No, we need to make that clear. Nor Johnny, indeed. No, nor John. Well, we have made that clear. Here is Pat, who says, my remembrance of the Festival of Britain was going up to London

on the train from Southampton. And I was handed the little individual home. loaves at the festival. Oh, I had forgotten about it. Yes, I was almost six. My brother was three and a half and was in a push chair. And my father stood on it to take photographs, much to my mother's horror.

Yeah, I can imagine that. Yes, the little loaves. Was that a detail that you didn't include? There's so much great detail in here. There were so many things that I didn't have room for. And then things I found out afterwards, I was in the museum in Whitbury, which is a wonderful little beji museum.

And they had an exhibition, I think it was a, a copy of an exhibit that was in the festival, which I had not known about. It's quite big, and it's a lot of glass involved in it, and it's got leeches in these glass tubes. So if the leeches go up in the tubes, then it's high pressure, and if they go down, it's low pressure. Brilliant.

And this is a way, it was this huge, ridiculous barometer, which apparently was in the festival of Britain, which I only found out about afterwards. But companies could donate things, couldn't they? It weren't necessarily accepted them. Ah, okay. Because didn't the hospital try to do a load of gallstones? 481 or 681 all from the same patient in the shaped into the emblem of a festival of Britain.

I mean, so somebody fashioned a load of gallstones into the Festival of Britain elba and then submitted them to the eccentric's corner. Right. Okay, but it wasn't, that wasn't accepted. That was not accepted. Right. Okay. I just need to say that at the very end of the book, in the acknowledgements, you make reference and say thank you to a hand surgeon. Oh, Ramon, yes. Right, and you say he helped me to pick up a pen again.

So what's happened there, Kate? He operated on my thumb last year because I couldn't hold a pen. I still have a bit of problem pinching, but I can't hold a pen and I can sign my name. So write very wobbly Christmas cards. But, yes, so he gave me your hand back. But if anybody wants you to sign a copy of Arnoe, Sals, you will be able to do it. Oh, yes. Okay. Don't hesitate if you see Kate at a literary festival.

I signed a coffee for you there, so I'm extremely grateful. Proof of Vermont's handy way. Yes, excellent. Well, well done him because it's quite significant that you are now able to write again. Our noble, what is it? It's an army toast. An army toast. The peninsula toast is one for every day of the week. And I'm not sure there's women, our men, our swords.

There's the old sweethearts and wives, may they never meet one, and our noble selves. I think it's Wednesdays, toast. Right, okay. I mean, it's a terrific book, and it really fizzes with life and just makes you really ponder about the horrendous mental burdens that some men and, of course, some women carried for so many years after the war. And as you say, often had absolutely no one to tell.

I mean, when you hear people today, and I'm not going to use the term, sometimes is applied to the younger generation. But when when people talk about anxiety and I'm worried about, do you sometimes think, well, I think it's really hard because your instinct is to go, oh, pull up your socks because I'm about generation. But obviously that is not not the answer nor the problem. I think they are living in such a different context now, especially, you know, younger people, that it's it's not something that you can equate. It's not, you know, kind of apples and apples, it's apples and pears. It's a very, very different society, very different life. So I don't think that our kind of old-fashioned, rather martinet ways of viewing it is ever going to be

the right solution, I don't think. You're a very sympathetic person. We should say, I was at the South Bank myself by Pure Fluke on Saturday night. And one of those things that, I just made me feel real warmth for Britain. I was in the Skylon restaurant, which is, I think, named after the Skylon exhibit. And there was a concrete concourse there and there's a lady teaching a crowd of people to dance and it was a fantastic cross-section of humanity. Slightly nervously dancing is the sunset on the South Bank.

And when people knock Britain and they sometimes do, I think I'll think about that because that was a really lovely thing that stuck in my head. I think my greatest joy was finding that there's replicas of the plaster doves in weather spoons on Waterloo Station. From the Festival of Britain. from the Festival of Britain. There we are.

You will never have a shandy in weather spoons there again without thinking of the Festival of Britain. Kate, it's a lovely book. It's poignant and it's also extremely funny. Thank you. Kate Atkinson and our noble selves. And if you are in London or you're visiting or whatever, do make a point of going down to the South Bank Centre

and you'll just be able to absorb everything that goes on there. It's a very, it's sort of odd place in lots of ways. But clearly it has a fascinating history. a lot of good things have gone on there and that book by Kate is just a joy but it's very poignant at the same time let's end on a slightly fatuous note but it's never stopped us before

this is from Lucy thank you Lucy catching up on the pod while doing the housework Fee did say to keep the names of dolls coming so here's mine honestly we've had a this has been a wonderful a wonderful deep mine to mine

is that the expression no My daughter, age five, was told by her class teacher that they could all bring in one soft toy to school with them to introduce to the rest of the class. Well, she had 143 soft toys at the time. That's a lot of varying sizes and type or species, but every one of them was carefully named and recalled. We were also quizzed by her to see if we too could remember their names.

Of the 143 cuddly toys she could have chosen to take to school, she decided to take a little dog. Not the one she called Benji or the one she called Toffee, but the one she called Boner. She simply couldn't be persuaded to leave Bona at home. Lucy finds herself in North Devon. Thank you very much, Lucy. I haven't mentioned your daughter's name

just to keep her dignity or what's left of it. Aunt children, aren't little kiddies a joy? Yes. Yeah, we really are. Right. Have a good couple of days. days, what should we have for Fee when she returns a brass band? I mean, look, I have to say, do you know, I was really, I found the whole death of Dolly Parton really

emotional, but I absolutely loved the cold stream guards at Buckingham Palace playing 95. Yes. Shall we book them for Fee? Let's see if we can put the cold stream guards on Tuesday. Right, we'll see you then. That's Jane and Fee at times.com. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the. end of another Offair with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get

the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.