Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Can you hear the sounds of Elephant and Castle?

Episode Date: June 12, 2023

The heat has got Jane and Fi in a bit of a tizzy! They discuss 'self appointed characters', hating Coldplay and Fi provides another uncomfortable beep... Plus they’re joined by Dr. Olivia Chapple. You can check out her charity at www.horatiosgarden.org.uk. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail]. Follow our instagram! @JaneandFi Assistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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No. Welcome. Hello. It's Monday. Jane's already got too hot. She's overheated, everybody, and you know what happens then. Well, all I'll say is it's wonderful weather for drying, isn't it? It is lovely weather, actually.

It's a very good point. I managed to do four loads of washing yesterday. This is what I mean. For sheets, it's just brilliant. It's just brilliant. I just don't think any, I'm going to say it, woman, ever gets over the simple thrill of sticking a sheet on a line and then going back just like an hour later and it's dry.

Well, I don't want to. I'm not being contentious just for the sake of it, but I find I have more of a satisfaction with a very thick sports sock. Because sometimes in winter, those can take three days to dry. They just ferment athlete's foot. Exactly. And then you give them a sniff as you're putting them together in the basket and you think, that needs to go through again.

Yeah, so no, it was very, very, very nice to see the sunshine. But how will you be by Thursday? I don't know. It's a very real and pertinent question. Yes. It's just, there's no break in the weather. I mean, I appreciate lots of our listeners are not in the

UK and lots are not in London. But also lots of people listening to this are enduring really properly hot weather. I know! That goes on for months. You were boasting earlier of your own domestic aircon unit. Oh, yeah, no, no. And I have to confess to that.

I don't mind confessing to that. Just because my daughter's room right at the very very uh top of the house is uh just unbearable so you know in the in the heat bumps like when it topped 40 in London uh it was really it was dreadful yeah oh gosh it was awful so I couldn't do the whole moving house thing Jane so I had to find a way of solving it so yeah you've called me out on that it's rather nasty Eve isn't it it's rather unpleasant I've got a fan that I got from the local

hardware, much loved hardware store so whether or not I can put up with the white noise though overnight I just don't know I just want to say it's a long shot this but if anybody was on the same train as me on Saturday evening

I had been to Liverpool for the day, which I'm very fortunate to be able to do every couple of weeks was schlepping back from Lime Street to London's Euston station and my train was cancelled and that meant that not for the first time

those of us who were kind of grimly determined to reach our capital city had to do so via Birmingham, New Street and Northampton and then got a really slow train that went through Tring. Now, I've got nothing against Tring. It's a lovely, lovely place. I just didn't want to see it on Saturday night. And by then, I think it was approaching 10.30. It had been a very, very long journey.

Anyway, during part of that journey, a man called Brian, wearing a baseball cap, got on the train and was, by some margin, one of the most obnoxious people I'd come across recently. Well, he's bound to be listening to this. What would you like to say to him? I would venture that he was probably in his late 60s, early 70s, he had been drinking and he got on with a bunch of equally boorish mates and they took over what was a suffocatingly hot train carriage somewhere

between Birmingham and Northampton in fact and were just loud, leery and a right royal pain in the arse. I actually thought other passengers were incredibly tolerant of them. I wasn't feeling it. Me and a couple of other passengers put our headphones in, were on, and just glowered in their general direction. But he was just being... He was one of those people who was a self... A self-grand... What's the expression?

Self-aggrandising. Yeah, self-appointed character. And they're always the worst. And actually, I was thinking about him, this sounds absurd, when I heard the news about Silvio Berlusconi dying. Because we were laughing at that phrase, larger than life, that's so often applied to grotesque figures in public life. And Berlusconi was one of them, wasn't he? He wasn't comic or amusing.

He sounds horrible. And we can say it all now because he's dead. Well, the funny thing was, we were talking to one of his biographers this afternoon who openly said that Berlusconi's attitude to women was wrong. He had a problem with women, and he really did. He was taken to court for having slept with a minor. He was acquitted of that charge in the end

because the court accepted his version of events, which was that he simply didn't know how young she was, which in other cases is an absolute calling card of the paedophile. which in other cases is an absolute calling card of the paedophile. So I think his biographer was also right to try and put into context his behaviour in that it would be called out more now. There is something dreadful about near history, which I think we are realising with horror,

what wasn't called out but was there in plain sight. And you're right this larger than life character bunga bunga party it's all hilarious since the Me Too movement a massive massive shift has occurred in how we see things like that and how women might want

to tell their stories and yet you know what the really terrible thing is I couldn't name another Italian Prime Minister I just No I'm really I'm really struggling to so no neither can I

because we celebrate that but then doesn't that have really really direct parallels to this country and to America that we are we're getting the politicians that we deserve if we carry on clicking on things about their darker sides and kind of celebrating the shit that goes down.

Am I allowed to say shit that goes down on a podcast? No, you cannot. On a podcast you can see all things like shit. So every time there's a story about how dreadful it is that there's a story about boris johnson uh you are playing into that at the moment aren't you i'm not comparing him to the crimes of burlesconi but he is also described as a larger than i think yes yes yes i just i just want to go a couple of days without seeing an image of him jogging um or either from the front or the back i. I just don't want to see it.

Yeah, but I think you've developed that illness, if I may say so. It is an illness. Of becoming really, really antagonised by these people, but then wanting to be antagonised by these people. And that's why we're in the pile of state we're in, as you were saying. Yes, so it's all on you. It's probably all my fault, but I think I'm going to carry on just blaming that guy

on the train on Saturday night, if that's all right. No, I did. I was all transfer it, blame it all on you. I was also semi-interested during that journey on the Manchester City game, but I couldn't even get the internet. I couldn't, so that was infuriating. Oh, but we don't need Wi-Fi on trains, do you?

That's been decided. Oh, yes, of course we don't need Wi-Fi on trains, do we? That's been decided. Oh, yes, of course we don't. It's not a priority, is it? No, we can all sit and look out the window just with our own thoughts. As we all know in Britain, actually getting anywhere on a train is also not a priority for most British rail users. No, you don't need to do that. Please don't get me antagonised about that. Because what you can do is just stay home and use your Wi-Fi.

And produce more British taxpayers. Now, this is about noisy Britain. And maybe, Jane, you should leave for Germany. Because this comes from... Who says, last night was more restless than usual. Having to pack after a very few stimulating days in Germany, a country which I absolutely love. I was very struck by your discussion about how noisy Brits abroad are. I was in the British Army as we

were preparing to leave Germany and there was a great deal of concern about how children would cope with the return to the UK, let alone the parents as many of them had never lived there. It was heartbreaking to hear of how many of them really didn't want to go back to England and this was mostly for reasons of noise and tranquility. I'm something of a similar age to you both and we can remember quiet Sundays when there was nothing much to do

except visit family, talk with each other, watch TV, usually terrible, or go out and do something less boring instead, which was the straplineine wasn't it of why don't you a tv program that we'll remember but lots of our listeners in canada probably won't that was called why don't you turn off the television set and go and do something more interesting instead that's exactly it it seems to me that for the last 30 years we in the uk have

become used to a seven-day working week and shopping with no time to rest apart from a pandemic-enforced hiatus. This leaves people exhausted, overstimulated and inconsiderate, Brian, especially when visiting other nations who have had a rest day on Sundays or early closing day on Wednesdays and Saturdays. The notion of quiet time, which Germans enforce rigidly and which means there are no lawn mowers on Saturday afternoons or Sunday. What? Or any other loud mechanical noises. Yeah, it's law in Germany.

You have to have a quiet Sunday. It's a thing. Wow, I didn't know that. So you can't go and, you know, tile cut for your bathroom or get your strimmer out or anything like that on a Sunday. So anything of that nature has to be done if you're working during the week on a Saturday morning. It's an anathema, to Brit says, especially when abroad. It does make me wonder if we haven't sold something of our national soul

for almost incessant economic activity and to what benefit. Just as Mary Woodhouse saw the dangers of unregulated television, Whitehouse, that is, isn't it? Perhaps the Keep Sunday special campaign had a value beyond the religious. I'll be grateful if you didn't use my name. I'll give you a beep, Eve. Beep! Oh, that was a very long one, wasn't it? Totally over the top.

Yeah. Do a nicer one. I'll do a short one. Beep. Yeah, really lovely. Genuinely enjoyable. Low military beep for you. Did you see the footage of the poor soldier

falling over in his bearskin and carrying on? I'm still trying to play the trombone. Genuinely, one of the most heartbreaking images I have ever seen. Ever? Yeah, there was something very poignant about just seeing a prone guardsman still desperately trying to play his trombone.

Oh, no, that element of it was. OK, not... No, I mean... There was... Yeah, it was the kind of terrible loss of dignity associated with it, and the... Yeah, I thought it was really sweet. It was really sweet. I thought his mates were very, when they consoled him,

when he managed to stagger back to his feet. But why, Jane, are we still making those men and women dress up in bearskin hats on a hot day? I don't think we're making women put a bearskin on. But yeah, it was a boiling hot day in central London on Saturday.

Some sort of rehearsal for the Trooping the Colour, which I think is next weekend, which is a big, highly choreographed annual military parade. Are there no women allowed in the guards? Good question. I don't think they march with the bearskins on. So, I mean, that's one for the audience. Somebody will know.

They will know. I'll tell you who would know. That's Rory stewart who happens to be referenced in this email from daisy excellent but not counting blue peter she says this is the first time i've ever written into a show then she says actually it's not true i wrote to the rest is politic politics to say that i thought they had a woman problem after rory proclaimed that it is now much safer, actually, to walk across Afghanistan than it was when I did it. For who, Rory, I asked. But I'm sure they didn't even register it,

let alone read it, so I don't think it counts. I think it's a brilliant email and they should have answered it. They should. I'm sorry they didn't, actually. For what it's worth, Daisy, I quite enjoy their podcast, if I'm honest, but they do have a gap. They have a gap when it comes to women and women's experiences, which is extraordinary in lots of ways. And I think that's, forgive me, is a remark completely typical of them for Rory Stewart, without realising what it is he's saying to say that things have really improved and now it's really

perfectly easy to walk across Afghanistan. But I can't imagine when he said that because it wouldn't be easy to walk across Afghanistan even if you're a bloke at the moment would it? Well oddly I think there was a really interesting report the other day on the Taliban and what they've done to cut heroin production. It was one of those slightly niche BBC reports that told you something that was genuinely interesting. So I think you will get some people, and I really hope I'm not getting this wrong, who would make the case for the Taliban

at least bringing a degree of security and relative calm and peace to some parts of Afghanistan. Obviously at a terrible price paid by women and girls. So it's not great as far as I'm concerned, but equally, if you're trying to do something about the heroin supply, then it might be. Right, we should investigate that further, because that does sound intriguing.

Anyway, Daisy, thank you. Yes, can I just read out a little bit more of Daisy's email at the bottom, because it just taps into something. I'd had a sudden thought about this a couple of weeks ago uh she says i originally started listening to the other podcast in season one on the recommendation of a university friend and subsequently got all my mum friends here in exeter listening including my pal rosie who once wrote to you about the oddity of being ch Martin's sister. I should tell you that round this way, we consider having had a shout-out on the podcast much more significant than a claim to fame,

which is just ridiculous, actually. And I'll tell you what, I was thinking about Chris Martin's sister because I went to see Coldplay the other weekend. And even if you're not a Coldplay fan, you should go and see the Coldplay show because it's really, really magnificent and just uplifting and joyful. And I really hate people who hate Coldplay.

So if you hate Coldplay, don't bother me with that. I don't hate them. No, I think it's just a wonderful show. But it did remind me, because I'd forgotten that Chris Martin's sister had sent us, do you remember when she sent us a fantastic postcard which detailed the fact that their mum had taken up the oboe and that we'd said something about a previous sister-in-law

and just the fact we hadn't bought into some of the stuff going down on the website. And we enjoyed hearing from you very much and I just have always slightly wondered whether you were OK with us reading out that postcard because actually it was just quite it was just

fantastically what's the right word? Revealing. Revealing, I think that is the right word. It was lovely to hear from you so I hope you're okay Rosie and obviously I'm slightly in love with your brother but that won't come as a great shock to you. Well you don't want to mention his upper arms.

I don't suppose any... No woman thinks of her brother in that light, with great upper arms anyway, does she? So she's not going to be offended by that. No, nobody would think that about Chris. No, dear Chris. No, dear, dear. But if you're really irritated by a sibling

who's gone on to tremendous success, you know what you can do. Email janeandfee at times.radio. Not if you're related to either of us. Make that very clear. Actually, my sister doesn't listen, so that's fine. Oh, that is mine. Great.

I played my mum the film of us promoting our book club that we put on Instagram. Jane and Fee, by the way, if you'd like a follow. All she said was, are you both standing up? I said yes. That's it. But how could she tell that we were a bit short against the background of the whole of the City of London?

That's literally all she said. She had to measure us by comparison to how big we look against St Paul's Cathedral Dome. Does anybody else look bigger? Mo? Hey? Hey? Indeed. She's not that big herself. She remains slightly taller than me, which is incredibly irritating. Have you read Kate's email about Japan? Because we were talking on the programme today

about Japan's demographic problem. It just has too many old people and not enough young people. 28% of the Japanese population is over 65, which is a lot. But this is an email from Kate actually referring to, I think it was a comment I made about Japan and its lack of immigration. It's probably fair to say, says Kate, that immigration is low in Japan compared to the wider population. But actually, Japan has got many immigrants living there,

one of whom is my sister. She moved there for work and then got married. The channel NHK World is the international arm of the Japanese broadcaster and has the most lovely show called Where We Call Home. It's all about people who've moved to Japan from other countries and the lives they have built for themselves. Well worth a watch.

I also had to laugh at the lady who'd come back from Japan saying how quiet it was the cities are really loud just like ours traffic noise loads of people and every station on the tokyo metro i love this has its own jingle now we need to do that on the london underground i suppose that's a way would that be a way for people to identify where they were if they didn't have time to read or couldn't read Japanese script? That is so fabulous, isn't it? Because also you might be, you know, deep into a book or a paper or whatever. And I've missed my station several times, especially on the Jubilee line. It doesn't seem to go at the same

speed. It's very quick. Well, sometimes it's super quick. It's like the 21st century, isn't it? Yeah, and I'm at Stratford before I know it. I don't want to be at Stratford. So if you had a jingle, that would be great. What would the jingle for the elephant and castle be? Roar! And then the sound of a castle.

Can't do a castle. It's a bit difficult, isn't it, you see? You're not as clever as you think you are. Well, I didn't say I was clever, but you asked me to come up with a jingle, presumably because you couldn't do a castle. It's a bit difficult, isn't it, you see? You're not as clever as you think you are. Well, I didn't say I was clever, but you asked me to come up with a jingle, presumably, because you couldn't get one yourself. Oh, my word. But, see, would you sing the name?

I think you'd just have... Well, I don't know. Could somebody... Let's hear more about that, if you are in Japan. Could you record a jingle and send it to us? Yeah, because we can't imagine. That would be the best thing. Could you explain, I'll go to the Foot of the Stairs? Sandra has sent this in.

She says thanks from a very sticky guerre in the south of France. She says she's from Cheshire, but she's never heard that expression before and you used it in the conversation that we had with Satnam Sanghera, who was in to talk about his fantastic book, Stone and History. Well, I'll Go to the Foot of our Stairs is just an exclamation of astonishment. Well, I'm just amazed. I'll Go to the Foot of Our Stairs. What does it actually mean? What's it referencing? I don't, I think perhaps I don't, it might be because upstairs are a relatively new invention.

Interesting. I don't know actually really, but it's definitely, maybe it's like a relatively new invention. Interesting. I don't know actually really. But it's definitely, maybe it's like a North Western expression. Yes, meaning astonishment and surprise. I'd be amazed if.

Okay. Yeah. Right. I'll go to the foot of our stairs. So is it the equivalent of in Hampshire would say, I'll start the Gymkhana? Very much so. Does anybody say that? No, I just made that up. Oh, okay, right.

To play into the stereotype that you like to have of everybody from Hymnsha. This one comes in about Erling Haaland's pants. It's from E, who says... We all know what it is. No, I've done it again. It's from O who needs to be anonymous, please, as my job is a bit serious. Here we go. 64 minutes

into the Man City versus Into Something match. No goals so far. Very hot and my mind has started to wander. Naturally, it meandered back to an off-air episode which involved mention of an astronomical rise in the sale of Y-fronts due to the Erling Haaland Noel Gallagher photo.

I admit I'd found the item shocking, as I'd always associated such nether garments with my dad in the 1970s. Anyway, while my husband and child remained glued to the screen, I thought I'd take a moment to have a little look at the picture. Of course you did.

Oh, serious job. For reasons that I won't go into, I then found it necessary to zoom in on certain parts at the picture. Of course you did. Oh, serious job. For reasons that I won't go into, I then found it necessary to zoom in on certain parts of the image. I repeat the earlier phrase. I can now report that he's not wearing Y-fronts. Well, it's astonished me, I have to tell you. I thought I'd studied the image closely enough. OK.

These are normal clingy boxes, but somehow the little leg bits have just got a bit rolled up. How long did you spend on this, though? I can't tell you how relieved I was, and I thought I'd share in the hope of bringing similar comfort to others. You're all slightly ashamed that this is the only contribution

I'm ever likely to make to anything. No, we're grateful for that because it'll give other people the opportunity to go back to that picture. I found that picture a bit disturbing actually because I think it's because Erland is I say that as if I know him, the young

man is near naked and being photographed with these other completely and utterly dressed guys around him. Well it's Noel Gallagher and some other fella isn't it? I didn't like it. It gave me the giggles. I kind of know where you are but like I say I can't pretend I haven't seen it we'll keep this one anonymous

hi I've got two children we were talking last week about the Conservatives Miriam Cates was it who was basically calling for a bit like our item about Japan today calling on British women to come to the wicket and produce more citizens.

I have two children, says our correspondent. After my first child, the enormity of the responsibility overwhelmed me. I knew instantly that this was a lifelong commitment. This beautiful little human had me as his guardian, protector and provider. I did have a deep maternal attachment. I made a decision to have only one child. have a deep maternal attachment. I made a decision to have only one child. However, my family and husband took a different view and after much persuasion, I had an amazing daughter.

I've got no regrets. Both are great people who contribute to society by making the world a better place. My daughter, though, has said she doesn't want children. She says that she isn't prepared to put her body through being pregnant, giving birth and everything that comes post-birth physically. I respect and admire that decision. She does say if she feels she wants a child, then she'll look at adoption as there are thousands of children all over the world who need a mother figure and safe homes and a nurturing environment and I truly admire her. She says, P.S., both my offspring are in the higher tax bracket,

which is very much the ambition we have for all our children. It really is. And this one, I'm always quite glad to hear that. Nobody really, that's a nice way of putting it, isn't it? Because if you just ended with a P.S. saying both my kids are stonkingly rich, it just wouldn't have quite the same ring about it. This one comes in from Jackie, who says, I'm a long-time listener.

My brothers and I used to play Cindy in Action Man weddings when we were young. The most popular bridegroom was the action figure Tom Stone, who, apart from being very handsome, had moulded blue underpants. I don't remember Tom Stone at all. I'd like to have met Tom, but it was never my good fortune to do so. No. Yours in Sisterhood, says Jackie, who then adds,

I wear aprons and I went reluctantly to my school reunion and enjoyed it. My pretentious moment was reading a copy of The Stage on a train journey to London when I was 15. I'm 54 and yet to launch a career in showbiz. Still time. I love that. Love that, love that, love that. I'll just pick up a copy of The Stage.

I get it every time I go on the train. And let's get to this one from Julie in York. This is something that you should play, not play necessarily, but just mention to any friend of yours who's wrestling with the demands of breastfeeding. That was something else that was in the news last week. Julie says, I endured three painful weeks of breastfeeding my son, both emotionally and physically, and then I just packed it in.

The guilt was enormous, and I distinctly remember saying that when he failed all his GCSEs, it would be all my fault. Get this. He came home last week for the summer, clutching his book that had kept him entertained on the flight. It was a Ken Follett.

See? Kept him entertained on the flight. It was a Ken Follett. See? He is studying for a PhD at Harvard. Brilliant. Julie wins. Well done, Julie.

Those three weeks, by the way, they'll be the three weeks that tipped him over the intellectual edge and sent him stratospherically straight to Harvard. I'm sure they would be. I'm so sorry, Jane, I've been temporarily distracted. What have I done there? I've put a clean dress on. You've got a huge stain. And I've just rubbed against something very white that won't come off.

We've got new desks in the office and I wonder whether there was a little bit of painting over the weekend and they haven't put up a don't sit down, there's wet paint here sign. It looks a little bit like white powder now. What on earth could that be? Well, we're adjacent to showbiz. We're not right in showbiz anymore, darling. So I think it's more likely to be, I don't know what it is, paint or chalk.

That's very annoying. Right, let's talk about our guest today. It was really lovely to meet her. One of the most dignified and thoughtful women that we have had on the programme so far. And you'll understand why when you listen to the whole of the interview. It's Dr Olivia Chappell and her son Horatio died when he was just 17 years old. He had gone on a camp with the British Exploring Society to the remote Svalbard Islands.

And that camp was attacked by a polar bear and Horatio was killed. But just the year before, when he was only 16, he had gone to do some work experience at a spinal injury clinic in Salisbury, where he lived, and he had been very interested in becoming a doctor. And whilst he was there, he hit on the idea of creating a garden for the spinal injury patients. Obviously, lots of them are confined to bed or they're in wheelchairs. And as Olivia explains, he very much felt that only being able to look out of a window

or go and sit in a car park really wasn't aiding their recovery. So he was a very compassionate and obviously very ambitious teenager. And he wanted to really devote some part of his teenage and young adult years to doing something about what he saw as this problem. After his death, his parents also wanted to fulfil his wishes to build the gardens and his mother, Olivia, has devoted her life to that. She's set up a charity and you can now find six gardens at centres across the country with plans for more.

And do take a look at them. You can just search under Horatio's Gardens and they really are spaces of calm and beauty. So Olivia came into Times Radio early this morning to talk more about the project and I started by asking her if she could describe Horatio so that we could hold a picture of the young man in our heads whilst we talked about what then happened to him? Oh, that's a lovely question. So he's a tall, loving boy who gives a good hug

but also loves a bit of banter and teasing and thinks quite deeply about things, understands nature and the outside and has an absolutely strong conviction that he wants to become a doctor. So let's hold that in our minds as we talk about him and what happened. He was very young when he went to do basically a bit of work experience, a bit of charity work at a spinal injury unit. What was that part of? So Horatio knew that he wanted to become a doctor and as part of that it's really good to get all sorts of different experiences

which might be relevant. And he'd done several different things but then decided he'd like to do some volunteering and the Spinal Injury Centre was the place he chose. My husband is a spinal surgeon in Salisbury in the same hospital. But this actually was completely, he didn't want it to be anything to do with David. So he applied himself, he went on the bus. It was totally his world and the thing he wanted to do. And what did he notice whilst he was there? So he had lots of his his main role was you know 16 year old boy so

people taught him to make tea the patients mainly I think and he did a lot of chatting and the thing that he rarely noticed was that everybody was stuck inside there was only a car park to go outside to and people were completely sort of dislocated from things that he found helpful in his life. So, you know, trees and the outside and the sounds of nature. So what did he do with all of that knowledge? Because it is quite remarkable that a 16-year-old boy on work experience comes back and goes, do you know what, I'm just going to change that thing. And I suppose to some people you might think, oh, that's a little bit cocky.

But actually it just came from a really beautiful place in his heart, didn't it? It did. And I think to start with, David and I were a bit cynical and dismissive probably, you know, having had careers in the NHS, we know that these things are not straightforward and building anything in the NHS is difficult, let alone a garden so did you basically do that yes well that's that's marvelous darling yeah great absolutely you've got no idea it's far more difficult than you think um so then he decided and we also said you know you you can't just have a whim on something like this you you've

got to um back it up with some evidence so So he said, right, I'm going to do a questionnaire, which he duly did, and he asked patients and staff, and then came back saying, yes, people do want something that's not only a beautiful garden, but somewhere that is subtly accessible so it doesn't remind them of their disability. And then we started to sort of listen and prick up ears. And he'd also sort of chewed the ear of the chairman of the trust who happened to come on to the Spinal Injury Centre

and, you know, explained to him that he thought this was a good idea. And from there, things started to progress and they came on board and agreed that the land that had been identified would be fantastic to send to the garden. So how far down the line were all of those plans when Horatio went off on the expedition? So we had the land secured and we were doing a little bit of fundraising. So we had a small amount of money and we had a sort of modest garden plan, which had been done by one of the members of staff who was interested in gardens so it was it was very much back of an envelope um staff but um we Horatio had all sorts of plans of doing different sponsored this and that and

ways to raise money so it had been something which we were talking about at home a lot and within um this final centre too. Tell us a bit more about what happened on the expedition i mean it is every parent's worst nightmare isn't it it absolutely is i mean we all want to support our children and particularly in that terribly difficult time when you've got to let them start to become really independent and do the things that they want to do and he really really wanted to do this and um he went on a um an expedition with a group um from British Exploring and it was a group of young people and the idea was a science exhibition um expedition and they were going to be because you know in long summers they were looking at a diurnal variation

and the effect of daylight on things. But at that time there was unfortunately a lot more sea ice than there would be normally and there were more polar bears around than they had expected. And because of a number of things which went wrong um a polar bear did get into their camp um and Horatio was attacked and in that time that he was attacked he put up a huge sort of defense and I think he he bided time for his friends to escape, but he lost his life. How many friends were with him and how many people in charge were there? So it was a small group.

They had 10 young people in the group and two sort of leaders who were young people themselves, really, in their early 20s, but they were trained leaders for the group. And it was a wider group of about 100 of them I think. Right anything like that happened before? No not to this group or this organisation. So it wasn't a known danger that you had in any sense as parents had to assess before he embarked on the trip? Oh no we absolutely it was a known danger and but we thought it was a mitigated risk and as much as any risk can be mitigated and we had discussed it extensively at home and were aware of all the things that had been put in place to

make it you know safe or safer and we thought that those were going to work, but they didn't. I'm so, so sorry, obviously, that this happened to you and to Horatio and to your family. But, you know, one thing that struck me when I was reading your story is just the absolute horror of this happening to a child who's abroad because that feeling of distance from them must be so hard when you're traveling when you're going out to see what actually happened how did you cope with that yeah that was probably one of you're absolutely right it was incredibly hard

because I think through your child's life you're there in all their difficult times you know when they're when they're born when they're ill all of those key moments and then to be not there when they die is is terribly difficult um as you know most um anybody who's lost a child in a traumatic way you know would know and I think you know our immediate urge was we just wanted to be there. I know that the inquest revealed quite a lot of incredibly difficult things. I don't know whether you want to talk too much about those now. No, I mean, I think everything has been kind of said about that

and I'm not sure that there's much more than I can add other than what I've said already yeah and that you know there were failings and um things shouldn't have gone wrong in the way that they did but how does a family process that does it help at all or really I think I felt very much that there was no point in having anger because anger is such a destructive emotion and I needed to have something that was positive and that celebrated Horatio because I couldn't change what had happened and no amount of feeling like that was going to change anything and so

for me the most important thing to be able to sort of navigate this in order to stay intact for the rest of the family was to find something that brought some purpose and some control and some celebration of of Horatio's life. And so the the gardens continued how difficult are some days though when you find yourself talking about gardens talking about bringing peace and comfort and help to other people knowing all the time that it comes really from a place of immense sadness and loss to you and your family as well yeah of course there are always um difficult times but you know anybody who's um experienced a spinal cord injury um is facing something very very akin to bereavement because it's um loss of all of their hopes and hopes and dreams, their future plans.

There's such an impact on their family, their friends, their community. And they're going through a huge process of adjustment to find something that gives them purpose, something that gives them a little bit of control in their lives so that they can start to find find a future way of of being and so sharing you know that that sort of emotion of loss that that as so many people tragically have to go through is is um very kind of nourishing and nurturing really um i suppose in in um if you look at it from a selfish

point of view um but it's it's doing something with horatio's ideas and that has now this huge momentum to it because it makes such a massive difference voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone Our guest today is Olivia Chappell. She set up the charity Horatio's Gardens in her son's memory. I asked her to tell us all a little bit more about what the gardens actually look like. So the first one was in Salisbury where Horatio was a volunteer.

And that's the regional spinal injury centre for the whole of the South West. And throughout the UK, there's 11 of these big spinal injury centres, fantastic centres of excellence, where people go for rehabilitation when they've had a traumatic event that's meant that they've become paralysed. And so now as a charity, Horatio's Garden, we are endeavouring to bring gardens to all those spinal injury centres. And then we run them as really thriving, vibrant spaces to hopefully support patients to find that purpose,

find the future, to adjust with their families. Because as humans, we're all biophilic beings we need nature around us. You've used a word I don't understand there Olivia. Biophilic. Biophilic. So we're hardwired really to be comforted by nature whether that's trees whether it's being under the sky whether it's feeling sunlight on our faces all of these things have a huge physiological effect on us. And in our society now, at times, people are most stressed. So whether they're severely ill, perhaps they're in an elderly care home, in prison,

we're removing people from all of that that naturally comforts us. And as a result, what happens is your cortisol levels go up your blood pressure goes up um you're generally feeling much more stress your sleep patterns are all over the place um and none of these things help people who need to recover so it's about trying to get this to be seen in the evidence is there. Without a doubt, the science is there to back up that we shouldn't be removing people who are in chronic ill health or facing acutely unwell situations from nature.

And it would be fair to say, wouldn't it, that there isn't enough room really in the NHS at the moment in terms of budget or you know possibly energy I'm sure there is goodwill for it but to be able to do this kind of thing within a normal hospital budget and setting. Yeah I mean those are challenges particularly when your hospitals are often built piecemeal and so we've been fortunate in that all the spinal injury centres in the UK have some space, so it's adjacent to the garden, to the spinal centre, which is absolutely crucial, obviously.

But you're right that even if the garden was put in, it tends to be put in as a low-maintenance garden. Maintenance is often the big issue and so for us these gardens are high maintenance on purpose so we sort of flip the whole thing on its head because then we know that a high maintenance garden means there's all year round seasonality and interest so whatever time of year you come in there even it's on a grim old November day you're going to find something that's growing. That's a very good point, yeah,

because you don't really want to look at just spindly tree branches in that kind of harshness of a wintry setting, would you? And they also need to be maintained, you know, and so you need people in them and then that becomes the social part of the project, which having people around you when you're going through a trauma is absolutely crucial and whether those are your relatives and friends who can then come be in the garden with you and alongside you or whether it's you know our volunteer gardeners

chat about anything other than what's going on in your medical situation it all helps. You mentioned relatives and friends there I did listen and everybody can do this to to some of the tributes that were paid to horatio at a service in salisbury cathedral by some of his friends excuse me i'm tearing up just thinking about it because the young people just spoke so amazingly about losing this friend do you keep in touch with them do they keep in touch with you absolutely and I was they've been such um a joy such a support um they I think you know particularly for his his friends who he was at school with. You know, they were very, very close. They'd been together for four years.

And they were 17-year-old boys too who don't on the whole have a language for bereavement. And they needed to find a way to be able to sort of express it. Yeah, I mean, they did it beautifully. They said such moving things. I think it must be so hard as a parent, though, Olivia, to watch the contemporaries of your child go on to do all of the things that your child can't.

But does it also bring some kind of comfort to you as well? Well, it does. I mean, to start with was it was really hard but we knew that they were all grieving so much as well we needed to do it all together and they've been such wonderful friends to Horatio to Horatio's brothers and to us and you know they're now two or one involved with the charity um the sort of succession of the charity um and the vibrancy and energy that comes from them and then the many other young people who've sort of joined them because they've been touched by perhaps friends who've had spinal cord injuries or or the charity in some other way so there is a big cohort of call them young people but they're

you know they're now getting on they're in their late 20s now um but and a growing cohort of those people who want this they understand that you know nobody should have to be in the situation of having a devastating life-changing injury without having somewhere that's not for Micah to recover in. I did love some of the little details as well that were mentioned. Were you aware that his early teenage parties were based around his desire to have a lot of low-alcohol beer and pavlova? Probably not.

I just love the addition of low alcohol because I can imagine someone right out thinking of his parents will be there so we'll say it was low alcohol probably wasn't you're obviously incredibly proud of Horatio and what he achieved in his life and the impetus that he has given to something that lives long after him do you ever stop to think that actually he's probably immensely proud of you I hope so I really I really do I think he'd be amazed I think he'd be absolutely kind of thrilled and proud that that there is change and that you know it's not only changed within our charity work and what we're doing but you know over the 10 years we've been doing it the importance of gardens and health is has been more recognized and so if we can be starting that bigger dialogue and there's going to be many more people who are impacted for the for the better by this um then i think he'd think yeah this is you know he'd be pleased it's based on science he'd

be pleased it's based on evidence and he'd be really happy that that changes afoot that was olivia chapel and you can find out more about the gardens at horatiosgarden.org.uk and maybe you know you'll think oh i'll do that later and i'll put it on a list or whatever but do take the time to have a look at them because it's such a sensible and beautiful thing to have done. And, I mean, nobody expects to have a spinal injury. You're not thinking, oh, that won't affect me. You can't guarantee that at all. And, you know, maybe tomorrow it will, maybe next week it'll affect someone you love,

maybe, you know, a couple of years down the line. So it's a really great thing she's done. And, I mean, I know that you feel the same way and so many parents do. It's mind boggling to imagine how you can even stand up after losing a child. So all hail to Olivia for doing so much more than that. Much, much more than that.

And to talk in such an articulate way, not just about her son, but about the importance of that garden and just the hard work and the thought that's gone into that as a really fitting tribute to a young man who was clearly very special. And I thought it was really lovely. So it was great to meet Olivia. And I just hope that I hope that talking I don't know how you I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? How would she feel sort of on the way back? Do you know what I mean?

Having had another conversation about her son and been so public about him and about what he was going to be. And then you sort of, I don't know, it must be an incredible, a really tough mental exercise to keep talking. Although a good thing, a good thing to be able to do. Yeah, no, I agree. And I think it must, it breaks the meniscus really doesn't it because you know when our children are alive we choose when we talk about them if we say something wrong about them you know there's another day to

correct that you know it's a very it's a very very different thing so i. I'm sure it's mentally quite a tough ask. So, any thoughts on that? Do email us here, janeandfeeattimes.radio. Other guests this week will include Whispering Bob, as we've already mentioned. He's on the programme tomorrow. When do you think he was given the adjective

whispering? Do you think he was ever shouty, Bob? Well, do you know what? I have made a short list of questions and that was there. Was it? Yes. It's on the list. I might start with it. Okay. But don't you think it was your idea? Because I've already

had it. Oh, gosh, Eve. She's been being a bit difficult today. Rather tiring. Right. And we've also got the winner of the Women's Prize for Fiction. now jane and i don't know we're not privy to this uh so that'll be announced at the sparkling ceremony uh we will talk to whoever it is who's won it's included in her prize and how thrilled she must be oh Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us, and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly.

Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener. I'm sorry. Voice over describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. Voice over on settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.