Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Chicken shoes and a compound brown sauce - with Steven Moffat

Episode Date: February 7, 2023

Jane and Fi are joined by the writer behind Dr Who and Sherlock, Steven Moffat, to hear about his new play 'The Unfriend'. They also discuss the answer to the question of £1 daffodils, chicken hunter vs chicken shoes, and how many nipples the average person has. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Kate Lee Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Podcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Are we on? Good. Now, I think first of all, we need to clear up yesterday's cliffhanger because we did leave people who were listening, yes? Because you and Kate were both feeling nauseous. Oh, yes. And I went home, and because I tend to be sort of, you know, basically my life is the crucible by Arthur Miller. So I thought, my goodness, I'm going to catch whatever it was that was ailing them, that nauseous hysteria. I'm going to get it too.

And I spent all evening just sitting, waiting to start feeling ill. Nothing happened. And I went to bed filled with resentment. Oh. Not for the first time. Anyway, how are you? Well, Kate, why don't you and I pretend

that we're feeling really, really difficult again tonight and see if we can ruin another one of Jane Garvey's evenings? I'm feeling absolutely shocked. So nothing happened, then? No, I had a slightly queasy night. Oh, did you? Yeah, but a bit hot and sweaty. But, you know, there are those nights.

Those can happen. Yeah, there absolutely are. But I don't think either of us got worse. And you got better, didn't you, Kate, after a breath of fresh air? So, yeah, I don't think it was the chicken chasseur. Oh, yes. Which, just translate that into English for anyone who doesn't know. What does it mean? What does it mean?

What does it mean? I don't know what a chasseur is. A hunter, is it? I thought you were going to tell me. No, is it hunter? I don't know. I genuinely don't know. But why would you put chicken in front of it?

You'd say poulet. What does it mean? Shoes. Chicken shoes? Chicken shoes. That's ridiculous. It doesn't mean chicken shoes. Hang on, I'm going to look it up on the interweb.

While you're getting on with that, I'll say that our big guest this afternoon was hugely successful TV showrunner Stephen Moffat, and you can hear from him a little bit later in this podcast. Thank you for your emails, janeandfeeattimes.radio. I managed to get my conversation about cheap bunches of daffodils onto the radio today, and what was very interesting, really, is that it has... I always knew there must be a downside

to the £1 bunch of daffodils. And we had a great guest called Anna from Anna's Flower Farm. That was right, wasn't it? Yeah. Who basically just pointed out the obvious, which is kind of what I already knew but didn't really want to, I guess, come to terms with, which is that if you're selling a bunch of daffodils for a pound,

somebody somewhere is having a really hard working life and not getting paid properly. So I will have to revisit my relationship with the one pound bunch of daffodils. Right, how are you getting on? Hunter, yeah. Here we are. I knew it. Kate claims to have researched it herself

and she's come up with an image of shoes no that isn't right no that's that's shows so say it again yes but shas her not suze oh my goodness me this must be french speakers listening to this must have just about given up. I think so. A soldier equipped and trained for rapid movement, especially in the French army, is the exact definition. Sauce chasseur, sometimes called hunter's sauce, is a simple compound brown sauce. A compound brown sauce? Let's have a compound brown sauce with our chicken tonight.

Can we have two chicken compound brown sauce, please? I don't know why I've put on that accent. Sorry, you were just, I heard you in the background. What were you doing? What was I doing? I was mainly talking about the one pound bunch of daffodils. Oh, OK, good. I'm so glad we've cleared that up.

I think we should worry about anything that costs a pound in a supermarket. That's the truth of it, Jane. Yes, no, I think that's absolutely right. Can we deal with... We had a really interesting email, which we wanted to keep for today because the ex-police officer, David Carrick, was sentenced today and received a sentence of 30 years.

He will spend no less than 30 years in prison. This is absolutely hideous. I mean, there are no adjectives, but he was a serial rapist and all of his crimes were carried out while he was a police officer. It's all absolutely hideous. And we've had an email from somebody who said, your item on who would apply to be a nurse today, which was last week, wasn't it,

made me reflect on my own profession and ask who would apply to be a police officer today. I can only speak for myself and my personal views, but each report of despicable and criminal behaviour from somebody wearing the same uniform hurts us all. The damage they cause reflects on each of us every time we go to incidents, speak to victims and generally go about our work. Worst of all is that we all know vulnerable victims, particularly of domestic and sexual abuse,

will not come forward to get the help and protection they need and deserve from the police. Things are changing and work is being done to improve the culture, increase gender representation at rank and put in place supportive structures so officers and the public have got more confidence to report things and then see action taken against others who display worrying inappropriate or criminal behavior

but it does take time and just as confidence increases so too the number of cases that will continue to hit the media and further impact public trust and confidence. It is a long email list and I'll just just do one more paragraph. I was married to somebody who also worked for the police and was convicted of sexual offences against teenage girls, largely online, but he also committed a statutory rape due to the age of the girl who was 15. In addition, he was discovered to have had numerous affairs with older legal age teenagers, getting one pregnant and taking her for an abortion while we were undergoing IVF. I can honestly say that neither I nor anyone at work, even with the benefits of hindsight, had any clue.

No amount of vetting would have identified this behaviour or offending earlier. He was only found out when one girl disclosed something to a counsellor. Well, thank you very much for telling us about that. I mean, I wish I could offer you any words of support or solace, but I simply can't think of anything. I'm grateful to you for your honesty. And I really hope that you and the thousands of others, decent police officers, can just sort of move on and get on with your really important work because at the moment there is no doubt um the reputation of the metropolitan police

has just never been worse than it is now um and it's very frightening and really really worrying i'd just like to say i really hope you don't carry with you any sense of responsibility for your ex-husband's actions because I think that must be such a difficult thing to have revealed about a person who obviously you loved and imagined a family future with so yes I hope you're doing okay actually and I think it's really really important as well to hear exactly those stories of people who you would never have suspected of anything, because it it's it makes us all vulnerable, doesn't it? If we put into, you know, if we make one group recognisable as being the difficult group in society. one group recognisable as being the difficult group in society. So if we started to say, you know,

let's be fearful of a certain type of man in the police, it makes you vulnerable because a certain type of man can be lurking absolutely anywhere. It's just we're finding out about these dreadful men in the police force at the moment, but it doesn't mean they're only there. But what a brave email to send, because it just must be incredibly difficult to write that down, actually. I'm sure.

And actually, our anonymous correspondent does, and it's very important this, does say, please keep as part of any conversation the fact that if people are concerned or too frightened to go to the police, then they can contact victim support, their GP, women's aid, to name a few. And the most important thing is to get help and be safe. Any police investigation must be secondary to that. Thank you very, very much.

And it was interesting, actually, the judge today did mention, she referred to the, she said that Carrick thought he could get away with it because his victims would feel shame. And I think it is true that victims do feel shame, but you really, really wish we lived in a world where the shame was felt not by the victims but by the perpetrators and Carrick apparently made an attempt on his life while he was um in on remand and um he was airlifted to hospital and um his life was saved which um Imagine being the doctors and nurses involved in that.

Well, quite. I don't know. Anyway, there are no words. So, yes, imagine being those doctors. But we are a humane society and he got the same treatment as anybody else would in those circumstances. Thank you for such a thoughtful and honest email. It's janeandfee at times.radio.

Anything that you'd like to send to us, we read it carefully and we really do think about all of these things. I'm going to lighten the load now and read one from John, the printer, which is in a completely different vein. And it says, I'm a 57-year-old printer who listens to podcasts

while I operate my printing machine at the small workshop in South Manchester that I've occupied since 1987. I'll keep it short and snappy. You two are, and you said a very nice word there. I'm just going to say you two are okay. Downsworth, funny, warm, engaging, obviously very intelligent, and multi-pet owning, which is very good.

Not sure if Jane has pets? Well, sometimes I'm not entirely sure either, but I do have one, John. She has been mentioned, and she will be furious at the thought that it hasn't registered with you. John goes on to say my partner, Rosie, and I are just about to adopt a cat 10 years old from a local rescue as our wonderful Hazel passed away, aged 14 in August last year. And there's a cat shaped hole in our life. in August last year and there's a cat-shaped hole in our life and you've given us a 10 out of 10 there John and we'll accept that very graciously. I really really wish you well with your new cat I'm sorry that you lost Hazel 14 is a good age in a cat and also how lovely that you are taking a 10 year old from a local rescue because I think it's always just so much easier

to go for the little kittens, isn't it? Yeah. Brian and Barbara are doing very well, Jane. Thank you for asking. How are Brian and Barbara doing? They're doing very well. You told me the other day that Barbara was a bit of a nuisance. Barbara is a total pain.

So she's just difficult. I nearly put her in... Well, she was in the dishwasher the other day. I put the tab in. I don't bother with a rinse aid. And I'd shut the door and I looked around and I thought, I'd better just check that. And she's the same colour as the inside of a dishwasher.

Actually, a friend of mine, very cruelly the other day, said that she's the same colour as the stuff that's inside your Hoover bag when you empty it. Tell you what, Farrow and Ball will be on to you. So what would you call it? Well, you're absolutely right, it's Barbara Gray. So she's a minx, but we're enjoying her very much. I tell you what, Sue Gray's not a name we hear often enough, is it?

I'd like to hear more from Sue Gray again. All we heard for months on end at one point was Sue Gray. But do you remember when the report was about to be published and then it got delayed, she was actually meant to be going on holiday and she had to delay her holiday because the report... And I just remember thinking, a poor woman. You know, you've gone through all of that. You've got this incredible scrutiny bearing down on you.

You've got a lovely two weeks booked on the north coast of Devon and you can't go. So I hope she's still on holiday. I really hope she is. She deserves a rest. This is from Vanessa. You mentioned you liked hearing from people overseas. Right, and I'm in Australia. Whilst Australia experiences lots of sunshine,

here in the state of Victoria, we get a much greater variety of weather from one hour to the next. But when the sun does shine, it's fierce. And after 13 years of living here, having moved from the UK, I was finally persuaded to have a skin cancer check. Now, this involves a doctor very closely examining your skin from head to toe with a special magnifying glass. As I dutifully lay on the bed, I commented to the doctor

that I had a large mole just under my bra line. She had a good laugh when she examined it and told me it wasn't a mole but a third nipple. Apparently 10% of people have got third nipples or breast tissue that can appear anywhere from the armpit down to the bottom of the ribs. Some women even have to endure enlarged breast tissue in the armpit when they get pregnant. That's from Vanessa. I did not know that. get pregnant that's from vanessa i did not know that i knew that it was possible to have more than one nipple oh sorry more than two how long were you on woman's hour what very very much too long but i did not know i'm gonna i'm gonna make myself sound more sensible i knew it was possible

to have three nipples but i did not know that breast tissue could appear anywhere or could even enlarge during a pregnancy now i didn't know that either well i mean that's your take out from today isn't it now you've sorted out your one pound daffodils we're gonna take that take that away from you vanessa thank you um that was very very interesting now famously, I think Amberlynn had three nipples. And five fingers. Well, they dispute that, don't they? Do they?

Yeah. Is that a feature you've done? Almost certainly. Listen, I had 13 years of woman's life. There's plenty of time to explore every single inch of Amberlynn. Yeah. So I think it's always so sad, isn't it, that that's the kind of stuff that we remember

about Anne Boleyn. Because, you know, what a terrible life she had and actually she must have endured so much in it. But it will be the thing that future generations remember about Prince Harry. The only thing that the younger participants in my family life really know is about

Prince Harry from all of the revelations of the last month is that he had a frostbitten penis and he put Elizabeth Arden cream on it. Yes. And that's going to go throughout history. And I wonder whether or not he foresaw that as being his unique memory legacy. I'm not sure that was his intention, but you're right. I wonder, quite honestly, what it's done to sales of that cream

and whether or not it's gone down. That's what I mean. It's not the greatest association ever, is it? No, it's not. Product placement and all. But wouldn't it be funny if they did use it know, if they did use it in an advertising campaign? Because if I was in charge of their marketing, that's what I would do.

I'd own it, sister. Yeah, you're not actually currently in charge of their marketing. I might fly. If that's your big idea, I wouldn't jump ship from the happy world of broadcasting all that soon. I might try and think of some straplines. Oh, my goodness. Right, I think it's high time you introduced our guest today.

Our guest today was Stephen Moffat who's the writer behind lots of things that you have probably watched, many of them from behind a sofa. Doctor Who, Sherlock, Dracula. Before that he made Coupling, Joking Apart and our all-time favourite Press Gang. You do have to be of a certain

age to remember Press Gang. His latest venture, though, is into the world of theatre with a new play called The Unfriend, now on in London after an initial run in Chichester. Good afternoon. So this tells the story of Peter and Debbie and their two teenage children. Tell us more about them and who moves into their world.

Well, Peter and Debbie are two people I actually know in real life. And the first 20 minutes of this play actually happened. They were on a cruise and they met a flamboyant American lady whom they sort of liked, but found a bit much. And she seemed to know everyone on the ball. But they did that thing, that way of getting rid of somebody, which is we must keep in touch and exchanged emails. And when this woman announced that she was coming to stay to their great horror, they thought it was maybe worth Googling her. Because she had a rather unusual name,

I won't give the real name, I'll give the name she has in the play, which is Elsa Jean Krakowski, they discovered she was a killer. I mean, an actual multiple killer, a serial killer. Someone who was on the loose only because of a legal technicality. Someone who committed really, really horrible, awful murders. Not nice murders, like killing an abusive husband or something.

Really horrid ones. And she was coming to stay. And they had to spend an agonising night trying to compose an email that wasn't too offensive. You know, to say, you know, basically, I mean, we are making no judgements, but honestly, our kids are against murdering, something like that. They eventually managed to send that email and forestall her, but in the play version, Elsa turns up and they spend their time in an agony of embarrassment

wondering how to raise the issue of the fact that she's a multiple killer. So when your friends first told you that story, how long did it then take for you to think, that is winning and I can do something? Well, instantly. We were away in France with Peter, whose real name is Peter, and we were sitting on a patio with my brother-in-law and Peter and we were just exchanging stories and he started telling me this one.

And I had this terrible cold idea that maybe there was another writer in earshot and I'd have to kill them because I thought, no, that's perfect. And I said to him, can I have that? And he said, what do you mean? I said, can I have it? Can I write a play based on that

and just change it so that she turns up? And he laughed and said, yes, so long as I didn't change his name. I didn't, Sorry, Peter. And so he could come to the first night. He never thought it was going to happen, but a year and a half later I told him I'd written it. It absolutely has.

So when he was telling you that story, was that little nugget about manners the thing also that attracted you? Because this is a comedy of manners, isn't it? It's about the difficulty that people have being honest when they're kind of they've got this terrible portcullis of manners in front of them yes i mean it's absolutely about that it's about i find it very very difficult ever to be offensive uh to someone if they're actually in the room i'm brilliant if they're not there and no one can hear me i'm amazingly incisive and interrogative. But the moment I'm actually face-to-face with a human being,

I can't say anything. I just couldn't imagine how I would explain to someone that they couldn't cook for my children because they might poison them. I'd probably just take the poisoning risk, you know? Yeah, that is weird, though, isn't it? Because I think of all of the cases I've heard of people who shouldn't come to stay with you, that is by far the worst. You'd be entitled to say you're absolutely terrifying

and please never darken our door again. Yes, you would. I would. But, you know, worse yet is if, because what I kept saying to Peter is, what if you'd Googled her later? She'd been in your house. And I was just trying to imagine that. What do you say?

Um, do you like the spare room? What do you want for breakfast? Please leave. You're a killer. Okay. So your friends know that this is based on a true story, their truth. Does the nasty piece of work know that the play's on? I'm praying not, because she has a pastime that I find quite alarming.

And she's a real person, and obviously I haven't used her real name, and I'm hoping not to see her on any night in the criteria. So just to be clear, she's a real person and obviously I haven't used her real name and I'm hoping not to see her on any night in the criteria. So just to be clear, she's not in prison? She's not in prison, no. She spent, I think, six months, something like that and because there was some sort of legal technicality that had got wrong

and she was released and she's out there. Do you know, I've always been a little bit worried about cruises and now I'm really, really... I don't think it's typical of cruises, I have to say that. I think there are many people you can meet on a cruise who are not murdered. Why write it for the stage and not for the place where you've made such a name for yourself on TV?

It just felt like a play is one reason. It felt like that and I think it is that because the nice thing about a play is one reason. It felt like that. And I think it is that. Because the nice thing about a play is you sort of confine it to one place quite easily without having to explain. I mean, you can't even do the television version. You have to go and see her, what she does, what she does when she's not in the house. Somehow just that contained feeling felt right.

Also, I'd been sort of desperate to do a play because I had spent 33 years or something doing exactly the same thing all the time. And can you sneak into the theatre and watch performances and, you know, feel confident about it? Do you get affected by maybe you're sitting, you know, next to the one person who doesn't laugh? Oh, I've been in it quite a lot. I've been and yeah, that is that is a hazard. I sat next to someone the other day who simply and continuously cleared his throat. That's all he did.

He went... every 20 seconds. And I thought he just sounded like he was cross or that he was going to interrupt. He probably had a cold, let's be honest. Yeah, that's possible. I still punched him, but it was fine. Can we just... Let's go into the conversation.

So man with stellar TV career approaches the world of theatre and says, I've written a play. What's the reaction? Dare they be snooty to you? Well, let me tell you what the reaction was, because this isn't the first play. When I left Doctor Who and Sherlock, and I thought, well, I'd really fancy writing a play,

I wrote a play, which was not this one. And I thought, being as, you know, I'm me, surely, the whole world will flock to my door and weep with gratitude when I hand over... No, they didn't. I sent it off and most of them didn't reply. Did they not know the name? Yeah, I'm sure they did, but, you know,

once you take the TARDIS away, who cares? It was... It's brutal. I mean, are they that snooty? It's not snooty. I think they just didn't like the play. And that's fair enough. Yeah, no, I suppose that is.

Well, is it, though? I mean, because TV is... I'm just amazed that there's the possibility, even, that people in theatre might look down on wildly successful TV. I don't think they look down on me. I think they didn't want to put that play on. I mean, that's... I think there's a sort of illusion that you get to a sort of level in the industry

where people just say, well, he's famous, so we better spend millions on him. That doesn't happen. That never happens. I've got loads of stuff that's been turned down. Oh, okay. I'm quite right too, by the way. Quite right too.

You've got two teens in the story. Yeah. Are they harder to write than ever before because teens are in a very knowing world these days Well I've got or recently had two teenagers they've grown a little

now they're in their early twenties but no I don't think so I think teenagers are very much the same obviously I remember teenagers differently when I was a teenager because I was right about everything. But surprisingly enough, modern teenagers are wrong about everything and I'm still the one who's right.

So it's changed. It's changed over the years. And do you think a modern teen would be able to sit down and watch Press Gang and enjoy it? Because it was set in a time when they were creating a paper, like a proper newspaper, every day. They didn't have the social media, they didn't have the phones, they didn't have all of that. Do you think it would still take something from them?

I've no idea is the real answer to that, because every time I've suggested to my sons that they might want to watch my old television show, they've said no. So I don't know how it would play with modern teens, but I think it's quite good, so I think it might be all right. They're perfectly capable of watching things set in the past. And curiously, all the things you talk about there

don't impact tremendously on television. I was thinking about that. You know when, on TV shows, quite regular when you watch them, even really modern, really, really good ones, people turn up at the door, ring the doorbell, and come in for a coffee. I don't even, I would be astonished if any of my friends turned up at the door, ring the doorbell and come in for a coffee. I don't even...

I would be astonished if any of my friends turned up at my door without warning me four times in advance, emailing me, shed... I get surprised if someone phones me without texting first. But we don't do it on television. On television, people still do the old-fashioned way. But there is... I've never seen a home that looks genuine, a home that looks genuine on television.

We still have these curious, clutter-free environments. One of the reasons for that is to make a room look cluttered on television, you have to make it insanely cluttered. The camera cleans up everything. So you go on the set and you think it looks really cluttered and normal and real and then you put it on telly and suddenly it's sparkling and lovely and you could sell bread from it. I'm not sure you're right on that, Garth.

I don't want to start a fight here. I write about television for the Radio Times. So I'm thinking of The House in Outnumbered. It was one of the reasons why I loved that series because it was so messy and they had exactly the same... Maybe I'm thinking of Channel 5 dramas at 9 o'clock really okay and possibly someone at the ITV okay can can you watch something like Happy Valley without uh you know seeing the kind of furniture of your trade in it oh no I've got no problem with forgetting that I work in television

none at all none none whatsoever are we going to struggle during this interview to make you pin down your talent Stephen I feel that we you pin down your talent, Stephen? I feel that we are. Oh, wow, but pin down my talent? Yes. I think people have struggled with that for 30-odd years. Do you struggle with it? With pinning down my talent? Well, no, with celebrating your talent. Celebrating? Well, that would be a very strange thing to do.

What we've got here for you is a taciturn Scott. A taciturn? I thought I was talking quite a lot. I'm being argumentative. Did you watch the recent Happy Valley series? I knew you were going to ask that. I'm just up to date with the second season. That's how late I am. So I'm doing this thing

which I had to do a few years ago with Broadchurch of walking into a room saying, I don't know, so don't tell me. And Chris Chibnall's a good friend of mine, so it was really embarrassing that I hadn't seen Broadchurch until later so I'm just out of step Well don't worry, I'll scrap the next ten questions

and we'll just move on to something else Well we did want to ask you actually about that kind of balance between box sets and the way that we used to watch television and Happy Valley seems to have proved something that actually we are still interested in series that we can't consume all at once.

Well, surely that's partly a function of how it's provided for you. Yes, we didn't have a choice. You didn't have a choice, so I mean, that's not us voting with our feet. But why do people get bothered about that at all? Does anyone really get bothered? Is it just television people? I think you'll find there are articles

in the newspapers about it. Yeah, yeah, but I mean real people, not people who write articles in newspapers. But no, I think it is... I enjoyed this season of Happy Valley because I was made to wait for it and it became a part of my weekend. I think it's a perfectly valid way to do it and most of the shows I've ever done have been that way.

But at the same time, I can also see the logic in just saying, you know, your bookcase doesn't tell you when you can read the next chapter why should your television tell you when you watch the next episode I've enjoyed both I also with the recent show which I very much enjoyed The Traitors you know you had

to wait and I like that fine but I think there are I imagine there will always be room for both that you know the show that just suddenly is available through it and the other show that makes you wait sometimes in some shows if you really want to uh have people agonize about a cliffhanger then it's good to to make so you wouldn't as a creator you wouldn't insist on the way that the method by which your show is delivered i could try insisting that would be

interesting um you get told how your show is delivered. I mean, recently we did a three-part Dracula, which went out in consecutive nights, and I was a bit uneasy about it. I didn't think that was right for it at all. I thought I would have liked it to have been over three different weeks, but you don't get a say in that. And in total fairness, what do I know about scheduling? So what's included in the term showrunner,

which is what you've been described as? Well, what the real job title is, and kind of, you know, contractually and in the credits, you'll notice there is no role showrunner. But what it generally speaking means is executive producer and lead writer, or sometimes executive producer and solo writer of the show. So the one of the executive producers who also writes it, it's probably sort of total editorial control.

It's control of the fiction of it. If it didn't really happen, I gave the order. So it is king of the heap. King of the heap in a way. Tell that to my wife. Tell that to all the people I work with. Stephen Moffat is our guest this afternoon. We were talking about his new play, The Unfriend,

which is on in London. It premiered down in Chichester. We will talk about lots of other things that you've done. We've got a lot to pack in, in that case, into the last seven minutes of the programme. Stephen, you've lent into your own life a lot for your work. So press gang as a student, chalk, your time as a teacher, joking apart about the break-up of your first marriage,

coupling about falling in love again. Yeah. What would the drama of a super successful man of your age now be about and look like? Or just a man on a sofa eating, I think, wouldn't it? I mean, it'd probably be something like that. I don't think there's been a show about a showrunner, probably because it'd just be boring.

But serious question, what would be the stories that you would want to tell about a man of your age? A man of my age? I never, I don't know, I haven't a clue. I haven't a clue because I don't even know that I'm typical of men of my age? I never... I don't know. I haven't a clue. I haven't a clue, because I don't even know that I'm typical of men of my age. Do you know, I'm not sure what I would say about that. Just probably being generally grumpy and cross with everybody else.

Can we take you to the world of Doctor Who? Oh, I wondered when you would. Well, yes, I had a feeling you might be wondering about that. If I'm honest, and, hey, we may as well be honest... No, don't be honest. No, no, lie. Lie constructively. If I were to lie... Flatter. Flatter is the only way. I would have to say that I was a massive fan of Doctor Who. But in truth, it was a world whilst I utterly get

that to some people it mattered more than almost anything else. I never got it. Did you get Doctor Who? I mean, in any incarnation. I go back to John Pertwee and I didn't get it then well i think we probably share the same doctor who it's a bit of a kind of uh it's a dating mechanism i liked it very much when i was younger uh but i did find it absolutely terrifying too yeah but yeah i have kids who absolutely lived by your doctor who's sorry i interrupted the flow of your question no it was really just about how you felt about entering what is a world that the fans the a aficionados, they hold it so dear, it's so

significant to them and you come in and you start doing things with it. What was that like? Enormously good fun. I mean first of all I always was a Doctor Who fan. I absolutely adore Doctor Who although I did find it terrifying as well. I noticed you explained how indifferent you were to Doctor Who for quite a long while before admitting you were terrified. Not the same thing. Not the same thing. You were not indifferent. You were too frightened to watch it. Which is magical and wonderful. Not of the Daleks

I wasn't. Well done. Because they're not very frightening. But the Cybermen are really awesome. And the Weeping Angels. I mean, come on. What was it like coming in? You are aware that when you're dealing, how shall I put it, with the hyper-invested, that nothing will ever be right, and certainly nothing will ever be right for everyone.

That's fair enough. That's absolutely fair enough. But as Russell once put it, if a Doctor Who fan hates an episode, that means they watch it 30 times instead of 40. It's all right. You're not actually playing to that audience really at all. And the first people to agree with that would be Doctor Who fans who would like the show to be a mainstream hit

so they know that they're not always going to be catered for in the front line. So it's fine. It was just brilliant. It was just brilliant fun to do that show. I loved it. Absolutely loved it. Was it a big budget? No, it's not as big a budget at any point as it ever should have been.

I think Russell's got some more now, which is good. That's Russell T Davies. Yeah, Russell T Davies is back in charge of it again. But generally speaking, I think it obviously should have the biggest budget in the world, is what I always think, because it's the most demanding show to make. You've got one set that you use every week, Inside the TARDIS, and two main characters, sometimes three, they run out the doors of that set in the first minute,

and everything else you're buying, everything else costs you. So it should have the biggest budget in the whole world, but it's never quite big enough. But, you know, the modern show has been a rather handsome show, I think. Yeah, that's a nice way of putting it. Very handsome show. Can I ask you about diversity in your business? Looking back over your career,

how much do you think you benefited from simply being a clever white man? I have absolutely no idea because I've only ever been there. But do you recognise that you might have had an easier path or would you see that as denigrating your success? I think if you're unaware of how lucky you've been throughout your life, then luck will show you what else it can do. So I'm always feeling fortunate about everything. And certainly I imagine that it's better to be the white man

than otherwise but was I aware of it not of that of other things other things you can be aware of I was aware of the fantastic advantage of coming from a loving home okay I mean that's an amazing advantage and having a decent education and all that but uh i wasn't uh i wasn't aware of uh of the the diversity thing no do you that doesn't mean it's not there obviously it is i just mean if you're asking do you feel because obviously you know your industry much better than we do do you think that people have woke woken up to it enough now in the commissioning process that enough arms are being extended it feels as though every effort is being made. Yes, but, you know, that doesn't mean I'm right to say that.

You know, I've been around television for 30-odd years. I've never met anyone. And I've met people from, you know, contrary to what people say about television, there's a fair width of political viewpoint in it from left to right. I've never met anyone who didn't think diversity was a good idea. I've never met one single, I mean, not one single human being who didn't think that equal opportunity, that diversity,

all these things were good, were something to work for. I never met anyone who was against it. So if it's not happening or if it's not happening, or if it's not happening fast enough, or it doesn't work as well as you would wish it to, then maybe it's more complicated than we think it is. But I am no expert. We're all experts in our own little human way. And you're right to say all of that. Just very briefly before you go, we've only got about 10 seconds left. If you have an evening on the sofa tonight, what do you watch? The On Friend. In the Criterion Theatre.

At 7.30. Please come along. I'll be there with my wife. It's our 25th wedding anniversary. Come and say hello. That was Stephen Moffat, who's the writer behind Doctor Who, Sherlock, Dracula, so many things. And I suspect somewhat of a professional in the world of the interview with that payoff that made sure that we ended with the plug for his show,

for his show, which is on at the Criterion Theatre. I don't think he liked the cut of my jib when I said I just didn't like Doctor Who, but I didn't and I don't. And it doesn't mean I don't respect the huge amount of effort that goes into making it. But I would simply never watch it. How would you answer the question, do you look back over your career and think it has been oiled by your privilege? Oh, of course, of course it has. So actually, Stephen himself said that he had a decent home life and a good childhood. And that's the that's the gift that can keep on giving throughout the rest of your life, which you are all too frequently not that grateful for.

So I absolutely would own that. Plus white, middle class, good at private education. May as well be honest about it um and um yes and would i be here now without those things quite possibly not that's an interesting one to ponder well i think to be fair i think we are i think both of us actually do acknowledge that we are we have been hugely privileged um our only um lack of privilege comes from our biological sex and that has made i think our broadcasting careers would not have been the same arguably might even have been worse if we were male i don't know because there would have been more of us and maybe we would have struggled to be heard well there is that uh i think and you know i i i very much enjoyed that kind of uh ambition of my early

20s but i do look back and think god actually you know there was just a lot more energy being poured into that than perhaps male contemporaries needed to but you're right that's all you know that's all part of our journey who knows what would have happened if what would have happened if we'd done it differently or you know or being of a different gender anyway we very much enjoyed meeting Stephen and we're very grateful uh to him for coming in to see us jada fee at times.radio now last night um as well as the nausea hanging over the studio uh I was in a hurry because I had to go home to watch Vera and what actually happened was when I got home, I was just too tired to watch Vera, which is a real new low for me, even for me.

Really? I managed to watch it. The one that was on on Sunday? Yes, yeah. Yeah, I haven't given myself to it. It's not bad at all. Really, isn't it? Yeah, the thing that I'm really frustrated by in Vera, actually for about the last four series,

is they've stopped telling the backstory of Vera. Oh, and her father. Yes. So it crept along really nicely in earlier series and it was fascinating. Well, these are not Anne Cleave stories, are they? No. So, you know, it's a little bit more templated,

you know, just around one case. Yes. And I don't find that as intriguing at all. And correct me if I'm wrong, because you are the world expert on Vera and that will be your specialist subject if you ever appear on Celebrity Mastermind. Oh, I forgot to tell you. I don't find that as intriguing at all. And correct me if I'm wrong, because you are the world expert on Vera, and that will be your specialist subject if you ever appear on Celebrity Mastermind. Oh, I forgot to tell you.

Have you been invited onto Celebrity University Challenge this year? What? For your university. There's a new series coming up. What? And you know who's hosting it. Amol. Have you not been asked?

No. Let's get on to the University of Birmingham and make sure that happens. Anyway. Hang on a second. Have you been invited? Yes. But you've already done it. I know. Do you want to go instead of me? What, pretend I went to the University of Canterbury? I'm not doing that. I'm not that bloody desperate. I knew you'd say that.

You're so mean. She, Vera, at one stage there was a plot line about her having had a sister. Do you remember that? Oh, yes, I do remember that, yeah. And I really wanted that to continue. Well, I was up for the part of Vera's sister. Were you?

Yeah, that would be very successful. Right, I'm going to write to the University of Birmingham and make sure that their celebrity alumni department is going to get in touch with you because it would be so funny, Jane. If you and I ended up competing on competing teams that would be brilliant absolutely brilliant i'm not so sure it would be brilliant for me to be honest who are the other alumni from birmingham that you could i've never used the word alumni so often as i have in the last couple of minutes there are lots of people who went to birmingham and if you go on the google, you can find them all. In fact, let's just do it. Oh, yes. OK. Excellent. Are we ready? Yes. Well, I'm glad you asked who the famous

alumni of Birmingham University are. Tamsin Gregg. Brilliant. Ben Shepard. Brilliant. Chris Tarrant. OK. And the Right Honourable Anne Whittacombe. What a line-up. What a line-up. Nothing not to like there. So you could team captain that. Well, yes, I'd give myself a fair chance. Yes, strangely, it doesn't mention me.

Anyway, I'm over it. I'm so over it. They've given me an honorary doctorate. They can't do more. Right. We're back tomorrow. It's all glorious. Absolutely lovely. Marvellous. Great. Bye. Yes. Well, tomorrow it's grime, wellness and tech.

Have a good evening. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this but live, then you can Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy.

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