Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Cotswolds Onion: A Knives Out Mystery

Episode Date: April 22, 2026

Welcome back to the podcast, where the motto of the day is: “It’s not bitching, it’s high comedy.” Jane and Fi cover the rise of fidgeting, unbelievably engaging gut biomes, suspicious youths, competence porn, jigsaw frustration, and the Škoda fraternity. Plus, journalist and author Natalie Livingstone discusses her latest book 'The Nuremberg Women'. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFi Our new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofza Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Right, well, we're on quite a tight time table now. We've got to finish by 10 past 12. It's now 1134. We should do it. We should do it, yeah. Right, we're here now. And my journey home last night, because I know you're dying to ask, there's a tube strike in London.

How was your journey home last night? Oh, great, because I took advice and got a jubilee line to Green Park, which is the station. It's very near Piccadilly. No. It looks out over St James's Park And you can see the corner of Buckingham Palace That's right, you can And it's near the Ritz, so I'm very familiar with it

I mean it's very much my neck of the woods Anyway, then I got a bus. Lovely, that would be a lovely bus journey You might have to explain that to people Who aren't familiar with the city layout But that would presumably take you all the way down Knights Bridge and then onwards From Knightsbridge into the wilderness

Through Kensington. Of West London. You're so wrong with it. It's right. Through the wilderness of Kensington, the Albert Memorial, the Albert Hall, and all that. But do you know what? I'll be honest, it was hot. I was on the top deck right at the front, so it was great, so I could pretend to be the driver for a bit, and that's good, and it still passes the time brilliantly. Plus, I got some sweets to occupy myself. I was on that bus 90 minutes. That is quite long. Would it not have been quicker to get off and walk?

Yes, it probably would. Yeah. Once you've got a decent seat on the bus, though, I never get off and walk. You're not going to shift from the front at the top, are you? Well, my favourite seat is the one. These are Rootmaster buses. It's probably about six down on the left when you come up the stairs because it's got the air conditioning box under the seat in front, which if you've got short legs, it's like having a footrest.

So you can put your little seats around. So I head for that one every time. And also you're underneath a slideback window. But actually, we're going to talk about lady car specifications. Yes, I like this. There's a lot more that could be done with buses, not just in London but any buses around the UK whoever thought that the air conditioning

that they claim that they put in on new buses would carry on working forever. Well, they were wrong because every single bus that I've ever travelled on in London in the heat, the driver will just say the air conditioning is bust. And also, you know, costs more, doesn't it? Because you've got to use more fuel to do it.

But the ventilation is just rubbish, Jane. I thought you were going to swear there. I almost did. A lot of swears. in public life at the moment, isn't there? They've taken away the ability to open the windows at the front, so you can't get a through breeze. It's just so maddening.

It's things like that. You just think that's really, really illogical. Why have you done that? We were very close to, would it be Marble Arch or Admiralty Arch yesterday on the route? Anyway, one of the arches, and a household cavalry horse and soldier. Clop, Clip. Clip.

Clip it got involved as well as we went around a traffic island. There was a heck of a lot going on. Honestly, though, you can't beat the view from the top of a London bus. Yeah. And on that sunny day, that's an amazing, you know, you are seeing a lot of the famous landmarks. I almost forgot about the strike. Almost. Yeah.

I think there's an awful lot of London making that sound today. Can I just say, though, can we speak up for bus drivers? Because I've always thought, and look, I've never driven a bus or a tube, and I honour both professions. Do you know, I'm just so, and so is everyone, everyone's so glad that you put that in. Because there would have been so many people. going, I wonder whether or not Jane has actually driven a bus or a tube. But now you've let us know that that's not relevant to your life. I haven't.

I haven't. I would say, if I had to pick the harder of the two roles, I would assume it would be driving a bus. But I don't know. Are you saying that driving a tube's easy? I'm not saying. I was very careful not to say that, because I don't want tube drivers in their trillions writing in.

I just imagine, particularly yesterday, because the traffic was terrible because of the tube strike. I think driving a bus is a proper hardcore job. I would completely agree with you. And presumably some of the magic of driving a bus back in the day was that you would actually talk to passengers. It would be quite a kind of friendly job. But now you're super sealed behind the glass

and people just come on and tap and on with they go. You know, that's a whole shift probably not speaking to a single person. You've got to break up fights. There's a lot of sitting in traffic. I didn't get into any fight yesterday. The London traffic system with its bus lanes must be very frustrating. There's always something in a bus lane. So you can't get down a bus lane.

So I'm with you. And also, I just admire their ability to stick to the route because sometimes it must be really tempting to just think, I'll just go left here. That's a greatly blockage up there like you and I would do. Just go left, just get around it. They're not allowed, are they? They're not allowed to, but wouldn't it be lovely to be on a runaway bus?

Oh my God, the beautiful chaos that would result from a bus. Just go out, do you know what? And the bus driver just telling everyone, just saying, look, you're fed up, I'm fed up. Let's go down crossway. Let's do it. Anyway, let's hear it for London's bus drivers. Although some of them are on strike on Friday. Okay, but London is a little bit challenging at the moment.

And we were saying this morning actually, I wonder how visitors to London feel when they arrive in one of our striking situations. because, you know, people are very understandably, and I was one of them this morning, frustrated and a little bit close to rage. Everybody's a little bit close to rage because our normal routines have been disturbed. Can we talk about the specifications of a lady car? And we'll take specifications for buses as well, what would make your bus journeys better. This comes in from Kate, who says, my lady car would become thinner as I hold my tummy in when I drive through a taxi.

tight space. We're all doing that. She's on to something. She's on to something that. Very, very much. You go through, you think, wing mirrors and you're doing that, aren't you? Everything sucked in and clenched.

Yeah, it's clenched and you sit up a little bit straighter and you don't breathe. You hope it'll... You don't breathe until you're through the space. You hope it'll work. So I think that's absolutely brilliant. We've got the horn of rage in our lady calm if we were going to design it ourselves.

Yes. I think you need lower seatbelts. Don't you find that the seatbelt is for someone who's about six foot tall? It starts about half a foot above my shoulder. You have to get a step ladder. Well, it cuts uncomfortably through my boobage. Does it?

I'm sure it must do the same to mine. If it was fitted a bit lower, then it wouldn't. So I'd like lower seatbelts. I don't want seats in the back, so I've just had my fill of passengers. So I don't want a two-seater car. No. Just want lots of space in the back, just for the dogs and shopping, Jane. I'd like steps up for the dog

and I would like a makeup glove box that has a magnifying mirror in the lid so I can put my makeup on in there. Just contact the manufacturers of your favourite brand, SCADA, and get involved. I don't think they, the number of times I've mentioned my SCOTA Monte Carlo on this podcast and they've never been in touch.

They've never been in touch. I don't know what's wrong with the SCODA for eternity. I mean, I'm here for you. I've been here for you for a very, long time. And no, they don't seem to want me as much as I want them. They haven't taken the bait yet, but they haven't. We need to say a quick thank you to M&S.

They finally have. They have finally gone to say thank you. And let's see what happens now. Yes. I mean, it's almost like they don't need to bother much because they are having, what fashionistas keep calling a bit of a moment and everyone's flocking to buy their produce. But I don't know.

about that store in the hold it has over so many of us. I love it. I always have. I really wanted to mention this is from Pilly and it's about these, you know how sad I was feeling when I saw all the old photographs at the antiques market. And this listener has said, oh well, I've had a real sadness myself coming across these very personal family photo albums, just given away and lying discarded in huge piles in shops or on market stores. I usually have to adopt one. I pick a face or writing which speaks to me. I feel sad that these people are no longer remembered by anyone, so I deem it my job to remember them. I keep them present. I don't know why I do this. I suspect it's because I'm a sentimental old fool and because I'm a keeper of stories. I even wrote a post about this

on social media about three years ago. And Pilly has just included what she wrote. And I'm just going to read a little bit of it because I do find this really touching. She wrote, I've always had a thing for Mementos. One of the most disturbing things. about antique shops for a sentimental fool like me is finding the baskets of discarded postcards, photos and albums. Disguarded. It gives me an actual pain in my heart. Does anybody else get this?

I realise how ridiculous this sounds, and yet. A child doing a handstand on some nameless grey beach in 1957 with her fully clothed grandparents feigning interest. A wedding photo of an exuberant bride to be and her father, unsmiling and unreadable. Would that marriage last the course? Did he actually despise the groom? Stiff, unsmiling portraits.

Who were these people? What did they do? Did they hire that suit for the photograph? Did the babies make it through childhood? So many questions. It makes my head explode. Pilly, thank you. I mean, it's not cheered anybody up that, has it?

But nevertheless, I do think she's on to something. I ask myself those questions too. and I feel as sad as Pilly does sometimes when I think about it. Did we read out the email explaining why people don't smile? I've got it here. Here we go. Hi Sarah, thank you for this. The reason people in black and white photos didn't smile was the exposure times.

The very first photos took over 10 minutes to take. 10 minutes. And people would have to sit absolutely still. Sometimes with a stick up their clothes if they moved a lot. Isn't it? that was the children, or just fidgety people. Fidgeting is a word that you only ever hear at school, and you never really, it's never really mentioned again, is it?

There's so much fidgeting around now, though, don't you think? There's always somebody on the tube who's bobbing their leg up and down all the time, and weird kind of, you know, people who pick their nails. Agitate generally. Yes, I don't. Stop it. I don't like that. Sarah, thank you. It's very, it's such a simple and obvious explanation that neither of us managed to get to when we were discussing it,

But I'm amazed that more of those photographs aren't a bit blurred because sitting very, very still for 10 minutes next to your loved one. Well, or not, as the case maybe. Yeah, would be hard, wouldn't it? I don't think we'd be able to do that. I don't think, no, I think we would. I do love the idea of maybe you should write, when you have old photos, and after my mum died, I looked at a lot of old photos.

People, if you can, and we should do this too. but of course we've got phones with photos on haven't we? You need to write on the back of the photo who everybody is. Very much so. And also where it is. Where it is, the year. And a little something. Just something because then there's just loads of questions

that will be forever unanswered. Dad burnt the sausages. Yeah. You know, Auntie Vera didn't turn up. Just a little something. Because they mean so much as that photograph passes down through the generations, the little amplified details.

But then inevitably, as you do house clearance or whatever it might be, you do throw out photos, don't you? It's very painful to do that. It's pretty excruciating, actually. I feel like I'm hurting the people in them. Yes. When I chucked stuff out.

And also it's one of those, and we've touched on this before, which bin are you putting them in? You know, when you go to the dump, there's something almost merciless about putting your family photographs in the non-recyclable household waste, you know, which tends to be full of dead,

Henry Hoover's and bits and pieces, which won't fit in small electricals. And that just seems really harsh, doesn't it? Really, really harsh. I think we were discussing. Is it on the podcast or on the radio? The fact that now, even going to the tip these days is more complicated than it used to be. You've got to book a slot, haven't you? Well, I mean, it's just a lot.

It's so involved. Not on the Hornsy Road. You still just pitch up. Do you? Yeah. But I couldn't bring my rubbish over there. Yeah, they don't check. Don't they?

No, absolutely nothing. I'll tell you what, writing that down. Come on in. Thank you. most inviting you ever sounded to me because normally you like me to keep out of your manner don't be ridiculous it's great I'm inviting you to all my weddings you've just never been able to make it

I'm not not on that front darling not on that front at all here comes Catherine from Wellington in New Zealand telling us about competence porn in space I'd never ever heard this term but it's brilliant and we need to be using it more just a quick note regarding your chats about the recent St Artemis 2 spaceflight, I thought you might be interested to hear that the technical

expertise and general humanity displayed by the crew has been described as competence porn. It is partly humorous, flying to space obviously requires more than just competence, but is mostly a reflection of a world where those with not much skill or humanity can be in charge, such that it's very exciting to watch good people do a difficult job well, with a kind wish. And Catherine explains, that's how the senior partner I work with. when I was a new lawyer signed off emails, of course, typed by his secretary. It's a lovely sign-off.

It means more to us because you've actually done it yourself there, Catherine. And I'm completely with you. That was the joy of watching the crew of Artemis II. They were doing some pretty boring, repetitive stuff in space, but they were all doing it with an awful lot of gusto, and they were doing it really well. And they genuinely seemed to like and respect each other. Yeah.

And I thought that was lovely. Yeah, and it's such a confined space. You've got to like and respect, haven't you? It wouldn't be for everyone, would it? We should say, who have we got on? We're going to put her out as an extra podcast. So I'm going to get her title wrong. Have you got her exact title?

She is Dr. Nicola Fox, Head of Science at NASA. Head of Science at NASA. I mean, that's a whopper, isn't it? And she's from Hitchin. And she's from Hitchin. Why is that funny? Well, I don't think it's funny. I think it's just a lovely, lovely detail,

and it's just quite a, I don't know, It's just quite British, kind of from a small market town, which is lovely. Very respectable. Very respectable. They've got a very nice market square. I signed up to the dogs trust in the market square at kitchen. It's a small anecdote from my life. What a wonderful boast.

It's not a boast. I arrived this morning to listen to three of your anecdotes connecting you to Rishi Sunak. All I said about Rishi Sunak was that he was a very good tipper at a tea room. I'd heard. No, there was more than that. And that there was a root... No. No, that's not connected to him

because people all think I'd know things about him that I shouldn't. I know nothing about the man, beyond the fact that I did have an enjoyable stay at a hotel in his constituency. Here we go. With an excellent breakfast. Yes.

Shall we post away? Shall we go to the Cotswolds? Yes, although could I just sneak this in from Mary Keenan, who's listening to us in Slovenia, because it's completely the opposite opinion about space and I enjoyed reading it. It's not the argument we normally hear, but let's hear it.

Outer space is vast but dead. I'm here to suggest that the last frontier is inner space, the world of microbiology, which still remains largely unknown and ripe for study. Let's encourage our budding scientist to delve into the field of microbiology for solutions which can save us and the earth. Mary then goes on to detail

just how unbelievably engaging gut microbes can be and the things that they can do and she ends by saying by contrast, outer space is infinitely samey and dead with zero atmosphere. Space curiosity is an outrageous waste of time and money and the fact is you have every right to cast dispersions on the US space programme, Jane. Back in the day my lefty parents were anti-space programme

because its funding was perceived to compete with anti-hunger campaigns. another legitimate point. And Mary is very kind in the rest of her email, so thank you for that. And we take all opinions. And it's a valid point. The amount of money that is spent on exploring space, and although it might lift the souls and spirits

of all of us when we watch it, it's not doing anything more than that for us yet. No. Well, we keep hearing that there are scientific discoveries associated with research that has been done in space. so I'm just trying to rather limply put the positives but I mean we could put that point to Dr Nicola Fox What do you think we should

Yeah I mean it's also the ocean Your job's rubbish What you're doing? I mean we can't though can we Because we're hugely impressed let's face it She's an immensely talented and capable of women But we don't know that much about what lies beneath us Either do we know the depth of the oceans and all that stuff It's very true

Yeah but I'm with you Mary on exploring the gut bio I think there's increasingly there's so much evidence about what we can learn from it and the harm that we do by not taking care of it so I appreciate the email I haven't been to Slovenia have you no no well let's end that section

of the podcast but Mary thank you very much indeed for your email on that subject it's good to have I'm going to say it's like the unfashionable opinions just get them out there we're here to hear them anyway trouble in the Cotswolds brought to us from a listener who I think we will name only as Lottie, Agent Lottie. I saw a post on my village Facebook group this evening,

which made me laugh at its sheer ridiculousness. I thought there could be a rich seam of absurdity in what other listeners have witnessed in their local neighbourhood Facebook and WhatsApp groups. Well, mine is always about youths. That's usually suspicious youths. Sometimes foxes appear. That's the general tone. What do you get in your... groups. I can't. You can't. It's mainly about complaints about fee. No, it's not. The house is on the market. Okay, so... No, it's not. But just, the only thing I would say is that there are some breakout groups from the main... Oh, are there? And you talk about the other, I can imagine. Okay. Right. So what's happened in the Cotswolds? And Lottie has asked

us to be quite discreet. So we're not going to mention the name of the village where this incident has occurred, or indeed the local hostelry involved. But, and we're certainly not going to mention any names of contributors, but one, a local resident, has advised other members of the group this week. By the way, BTW, somebody left a huge white onion by the bus stop opposite the, insert name of pub. I think it's been dropped by someone trying to get their shopping home. I'm allergic, or I would have kept it safe.

Right. Okay, bit niche. Another resident Does anyone care about an onion Ain't you got anything better to do I can't believe that resident lives in the Cotswolds Another one Normal people exist in the godswell

So not just Ed Faisi Another resident If it's not yours and you're not able to help Then I suggest you don't comment Right The man who said who cares about the onion Has supplied two laughing emojis And then another contributor

The original poster is back Some poor old lady could be really upset that she's missing an onion. I don't find that attitude helpful or in line with Facebook's community rules of engagement either. I mean, it's just worth saying as war rages across the world

and all kinds of turmoil is unfolding. Let's hear it for the Cotswolds. Very much, though. And let's hear it for the small Facebook groups. And I'm amazed that nobody put... That's Charlotte. I'm very good.

And I'm done with it. Can I be in your breakup? Oh, they are places of absolute wonder. Well, no. And I'm not prepared to discuss it anymore. But we're a wide-ranging community. And ours is a WhatsApp group. Our WhatsApp group was set up during the pandemic.

It was so helpful. Oh, that is helpful. Yeah, really, really, really helpful. So I'm not dissing it at all. and it binds us in ways that we didn't know we could be bound. Yeah. And also it's good to bitch about people as well, isn't it? No, there's no bitching. There's high comedy. High high comedy. Not that kind of intimate, says Andy. I too am a marriage registrar and celebrant,

though being of the male persuasion, I have no interest in wearing a sparkly brooch. Well, you could, Andy. Go for it. It's 2026. You're where what you want. as for my female colleagues, any adornment other than the county council issue emblem is taboo. Gosh, that's incredibly strict. It's quite state-controlled. As for tales from the register office.

You can't do anything in the office. It can't say anything. Personal freedom has been completely taken away. Disgusting. Last year, I married a middle-aged couple in the smaller of our ceremony rooms. Oh, no, he conducted the ceremony. He's a registrar.

I wasn't, yeah. Concentrate. In the smaller of our ceremony rooms, which seats just 12 guests, as the ceremony began, the bride's eyes moistened and she was clearly in need of a tissue. I reached behind me

to where there was usually a box of them, only to find it wasn't there. My colleague rummaged in the drawer of the desk and brought out what she assumed was a new box. Instead of tissues, though, we soon discovered it was filled with rubber gloves, left over from COVID days.

Quick as the flash, the bride turned to the guests with a cheeky smile and said, well, really, that's not what I meant when I said I wanted an intimate ceremony. There are plenty more where that came from, says Andy. Well, open the draw further, Andy. We are in. We very much want to know more. And regular correspondent Melanie joins us again from Chichester.

She is a registrar as well. We've got such a high class of listeners. Melanie's back from the chateau. Yes, she is. Right, some highlights of mine. Adult bridesmaids, no bras, in dresses they can't see. it down in. Now why would you not wear a bra if you're a bridesmaid and you're a grown woman at a wedding?

Well, don't you think sometimes the bride might choose dresses for the bridesmaids that don't suit every bridesmaid? What are you saying? Does that really happen? I think that happens, Jane. So, you know, maybe it suits one of the flattered chestered bridesmaids and not fuller-chested bridesmaids. And it's probably one of those backless things, isn't it? God, yes.

I don't like the backless dress chain. I mean, who can wear it? Really? Well, no, because when I was of an age to even consider it, I always had a sprinkling of back acne that you wouldn't really wouldn't have exposed to anybody anyway. Well, I don't think there's a long enough gap between back acne and then needing to wear a bra at the front.

Not that you'd wear a bra at the back. You know what I mean? The tube strikes having effects everywhere, isn't it? What else, says Melanie witnessed? Unbelievable body art, brides chewing gum. Oh God, I'm sorry, that's terrible. And chocolate cherub wedding cakes

just collapsing in the midday sun. You pay a fortune for a decent wedding cake these days. That would really, really get you goat, wouldn't it? Yes, I was pretty good about spotting those who wouldn't survive the course, she says. The lovely lady who trained me said she'd married the same man three times, twice to the same woman.

And that on the third occasion to somebody knew, he recognized her instantly. as he walked into the registry office. I wonder if you can just say, oh, no, I don't want you. No, because you've got it wrong before with me. No. Gosh, that's quite bold, isn't it?

Yeah. That's always quite bold. Travel with an optimistic spirit. What do you think of hen parties? Gosh, I've been on a few as you can, well, you know, you don't get to my age without going on a few, I've never, if I'm honest, they've never been as good as I'd hoped. What's the strangest one that you've been on?

because they're very complicated now, aren't they? Well, you see, it's funny because I've been on some, I will, I've got a couple, I can't mention anything, but I have been on some hen nights which didn't necessarily result in terrific marriages, but the knights were good. And then equally I've been on hen weekends that resulted or led to wonderful, long, long marriages,

but the celebrations, the female only celebrations before the nuptials weren't gold star occasions. So you're saying there's a correlation? I'm not, I'm saying there's no, correlation. It's really weird. No. There doesn't appear to be any link at all. I think you've got to get the mix of people right and they've all got to be in the right mood.

And I gather these days the cost, it's just incredible. And there's so much travelling abroad being done. Oh, I just, we didn't do that. I never did that in my day. No. No. And some quite strange kind of activities going on, aren't there? I did go to one back in the day that involved all of us having a pole dancing lesson. I know Why?

Well, I mean In that spirit And this is weird And I'd love to hear other people's thoughts about it In that It's slightly in the box of These are vaguely Titulating things

That we think we should all let rip about Before we get married Because there'll be no titillation afterwards Yeah, that's the box, isn't it? Which is the same? box for stag dues, I think probably in a far more concentrated and often rather alarming way. I think from what I've heard, that stag weekends can be so awful for everybody involved. And a sudden celebration of something that often the groom has never displayed, you know,

that kind of machismo or that kind of salacious appetite, whatever it is. It's quite bizarre. So tales from the hen night would be great. I'd like a few of those. Yeah, and I think the pressure to conspicuously enjoy yourself, actually, I find that exhausting. It doesn't really matter. It's why I hate New Year's Eve, because it's just that performative, Good time!

Oh, God, you just feel like death, don't you? Happy New Year. Right. Should we lift ourselves with something else? Oh, look, the Jigsaws. Oh, God. This has turned out to be a very rich scene. I've just been so naive,

which is the title of Jenny. email. I'm catching up on Monday's podcast. I'm compelled to let you know that you're not being naive and thinking that someone checks the charity shop jigsawls by actually doing them because they do. My colleague's mum does just that. She doesn't work in her local charity shop but volunteers

by doing all of their donated jigsaws to make sure that they're complete. That doesn't mean of course that this is what happens nationwide but at least somewhere in the southeast it does. I just can't believe it's just going to take so much time if you've got a 1,000 piece Ken Follett.

No, we've had quite a few of these. You've just read, which email have you just read? Because I'm just looking at mine now. I've just read the one from Jenny. Right, okay. And then we've got Georgie, a quick one today, listening to Mondays podcast and the chat about charity shop jigsaws. I don't know what the current guidance is,

but what I can say is that the neighbour who used to babysit me back in the early 90s was a volunteer at the charity shop. She always took the jigsaws home to complete before they sold them. Of course, you could count the pieces, but what happens if there's rogue peace infiltration? I mean, that would be of concern to that Cotswold Facebook group, wouldn't it? Very much. They wouldn't want any of that.

I was listening to your... Thank you so much for that, Georgie. This is from Debbie, listening to Mondays' pod, while on a regular stroll, up sale fell in the depths of Cumbria. When I heard you talking about charity shops and jigsaws, I can reveal that certainly in the local charity shops here, albeit a number of years ago, my husband's Nana was the local...

jigsaw tester and she spent many a happy evening making sure the jigsaws had all their pieces for the charity shop to then resell. It was his mother's mum, grandma, who ran the shop and then his father's mum, Nana, who tested the jigsaws. Have you ever heard of a nicer setup, said Debbie. There's a bit of a stitch-up at that charity shop, wasn't it? Basically, it was like the mafia. Yeah, it's quite a family affair. A family. It was all in the family.

No one loves you like your mother. How frustrating it must be to be a jigsaw doer and to get 999 pieces into the 1,000-piece jigsaw and realise that there is one missing? I can't imagine the frustration. No, you'd be tempted to fake it, wouldn't you? Well, I think you probably would. Yeah.

But that's just incredible. I mean, all hailed to people who are doing that in order to avoid disappointment at the charity shop. Can we just thank a listener who, she's in Dublin. It's Kate, and she sent us this wonderful image, which is of a non-phalic cactus. Or is it? Well, okay, yes.

I tell you what, the sun is absolutely, I mean, I don't know what kind of weather you're having in Dublin, but everything looks absolutely glorious in this image you sent. I've no idea. This is a flowering cactus. Didn't know they existed. Do all cacti flour? Well, certainly I've never known one to.

Do they do those spooky things where they flower every 25 years? I mean, it's either not phallic at all, or it's the most phallic picture I've ever, ever seen in my life. life. I'm done. I'm spent. Are you resigning? Gosh, you could have built up to it. I was really brutal. We've done ten years together, I think now's a good time. I don't like a fuss. I. Listen, nobody panic. It's all just pretend.

Well, I hope it is. Otherwise, I'm absolutely stopped. It's five minutes past midday. We've got to prepare. And we have a really interesting guest today. It is the author Natalie Livingston. talking about her new book, The Nuremberg Women. It's the stories of eight women who all played significant roles in the trial of the 20th century. The leaders of the defeated Nazi regime were in the dock in Nuremberg in 1945 and in part of 1946 as well, and the whole world was watching. Now, if you saw the recent film Nuremberg, well, women barely featured in that,

but Natalie's book is an attempt to redress the balance. Natalie, good afternoon to you. How are you? For having me. It's a great pleasure. Can we just start with a really basic question, actually, about the location of these trials? Why was it held in Nuremberg? Well, that's a very good question. I think there are two reasons it was held in Nuremberg.

Number one was practically, originally the Americans wanted to hold the trials in Berlin, but actually there wasn't enough space. So it was decided on Nuremberg. But also, there was something that was a beautiful, poetic historical, symmetry about having the trials conducted in the cradle of Nazism because the Nuremberg laws were promulgated in Nuremberg in 1935. Nuremberg was very famous for the Nazi rallies, where Hitler would address hundreds of thousands of people. So it was very fitting that the Nazis would be held to account for their barbarous actions in the very cradle of Nazism.

You really do take us to Nuremberg in this book. And actually, don't spare us any details about what a state the place was in. I mean, it was basically, it was a sea of rubble, wasn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Anyone whose diaries or letters I read, the first thing that they commented on was just how heartbreaking it was to see this decimated city. It had been completely, completely destroyed. It was, as you say, a city of rubble. one journalist described it as looking like a crushed brain.

Fortunately, the only two buildings that were intact was the Palace of Justice where the trial took place and the Grand Hotel where a lot of the VIPs stayed during the Nuremberg trial. So it was really a very, very bleak, sad place. A lot of homeless, displaced Germans. there were reports of, you know, people would come into the city and see rustling and wonder what that was. And it was a whole German family living under the rubble,

no heating, no food, starvation. It was a real place of desolation and despair. Yeah, I mean, your account is incredibly vivid. The women you write about include an American lawyer, a German anti-Nazi activist, a German journalist, and we'll talk about her in a moment because she's somewhat more ambivalent. a French Auschwitz survivor, and the only name I actually knew was the British writer Rebecca West. Tell me, how did you pick these eight women? Because I imagine you had a few others that you had to leave out.

Well, it's interesting because one of the first things that I discovered about the women of Nuremberg was originally I had, like, you know, everyone else, I had seen Nuremberg as a traditionally male narrative. You mentioned the Nuremberg film starring Russell Cron, Rameh, Malick. it is all men. It's a story about men. There was not a single woman apart from three anonymous women in the film. So when I discover that there was a huge ecosystem of women, lawyers, journalists, translators, witnesses, artists, the list goes on. It was really, really difficult to pin them down. The eight I chose were superstars in the sense that they contributed in the most extraordinary way. and yet their incredible contribution has been excised from the record or pushed to the margin. For example, Harriet Zetterberg, who is the lawyer you just mentioned, was a brilliant Yale-educated

American lawyer who was brought to Nuremberg. She compiled the dossier which convicted Hans Frank, who was the butcher of Poland, who was responsible for the deaths of four million people. Harriet slaved night and day in freezing cold conditions, sometimes under barely any light. She put together the most airtight case which led to his conviction. Unfortunately, when it came to presenting the case, when it came to advocating in court, Harriet had to hand over her work to a man because at this time a woman was not allowed to speak in court. in order to do so she would have had to obtain a waiver of disability and that disability was that she was a woman.

So I originally found Harriet literally as a footnote in the memoirs of an assistant judge Telfa Taylor and there's just something truly wonderful about rescuing her from the shadows from the footnotes of history. So for me it was essential that she was in there to claim her rightful place. And you do make it very clear in the book, that although all these women featured in and around the Nuremberg trial and trials,

I should say really, they obviously lived for some decades afterwards. And in Harriet's case, I think she was, wasn't she still suffering from nightmares well into her old age? Absolutely. I mean, Harriet was very, very badly affected by the Nuremberg trials. But Harriet was a very good example of the opportunity that the Nuremberg trials afforded women. she was able to play a significant role in the trials, in that she was highly instrumental in convicting Hans Frank, even though she wasn't allowed to speak. However, at the end of the trial, she arrived at the trial newly married to another lawyer, Daniel. She got pregnant at the end of the trial. She was basically shipped back to America. And there, you know, this incredibly brilliant, incisive,

legal mind was just left to languish in suburban Washington because there was no opportunity for an ambitious working mother to actually have a career. And Harriet's life ends, you know, it's a very bitter sweet ending. She has her two children, she has her beloved husband, Dan, yet she's unable to get the kind of job that reflected her talent. And actually, she ended up working for a secretary's wage of $2.50 an hour, which was incredibly frustrating. And her life really became one of thwarted ambition. And very quickly, she stopped talking about her role in the Nuremberg trials. And it was only later on in life that her daughter, Mary, who was an incredible source of information for this book, actually started to read her mother's

letters and understand just how crucial and pivotal her mother was to this very important trial. There are so many significant women featured in your book, and I really want to pay tribute to the French woman you write about, Marie-Claude Valen-Coutureure, who was an Auschwitz survivor. She gave really powerful testimony, but actually, really tragically, lived long enough to see Holocaust denial. I mean, that is just truly terrible. Well, Mary Claude Valian Coutureet for me is absolutely the heart and soul of this book. If there's one thing that I will always remember from this book is her name because she's absolutely extraordinary. She was a fearless French resistance fighter.

She was captured in 1942. She was sent to Auschwitz. She survived. She was then sent to Ravensbrook. She stayed for two months after liberation. in order to look after those who are too weak and infirm to travel. She then came to Nuremberg to testify on the 28th of January, 1946, and for two hours she held the courtroom in shocked silence,

as she revealed to the world the horrors that had been inflicted on everyone who was imprisoned in those camps, particularly the Jewish prisoners, And in unflinching detail, she managed to give the dignity back to the dead and managed to provide names to those who had been reduced to numbers and reduced to ash. So her contribution was absolutely extraordinary. And she dedicated the rest of her life to Holocaust denial because she made it her mission that she was going to be the living. witnessed not only for the day she spent in Nuremberg, not only for her two hours on the stand, but for the rest of her life she fought anyone who dared deny the facts that she had seen and the barbarity that she had witnessed. Yeah, and I hope this isn't a trivial observation about her,

but I'm just looking at a photograph of her now and she has the most beautiful, hopeful expression on her face. It was taken, I think, some years after the trial, but she was clearly somebody with the most beautiful spirit. It's such a lovely image. No, she was an absolutely incredibly hopeful woman. And if there's one message that I'd like to take away from the book, it is this wonderful spirit of Mary Claude, which is, despite seeing the very, very worst of humanity, she was able to retain hope. She was able to be positive. She did have a joie de vivre. She had a love for life. And it's quite exceptional. So, I'm just, I really, really hope that her name is going to become more widely known now

because she certainly deserves a recognition. What I hadn't realised, Natalie, was that, I think it's stupid really, but witnesses like Mary Claude were cross-examined. There were defence lawyers there working on behalf of the Nazis. What kind of points did they put to her? Well, actually, when Mary Claude was on the stand, the defence lawyer for the Nazis got her. And he said, Madam, we don't really understand your testimony because you look so very well. How can you possibly have been starved and beaten like you claimed you were in Auschwitz and Ravensbrook? And Mary Claude looked at him straight in the eye.

And she said, well, I've had a year to recover from this barbarity. And actually one more amazing detail about Mary Claude, which I think is just that sums up her, unique fighting spirit was at the end of her two-hour testimony when any other human being would just be completely drained. She took the time to look at each of the Nazi defendants in the eye. She did this incredible walk of shame on them where she really, really was able to look at them and face off this evil. Yes. I mean, it's, I think one of the women you feature, and forgive me, I can't remember which one now, really wanted it recorded just how average those men appeared to be. It's the whole banality of evil thing, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. And I very much believe, you know, the banality of evil, which was a term that was coined by Hannah Arant for the 1961 Eichmann trial, I really believe that Hannah Arant was inspired by a lot of the journalists who wrote about Nuremberg, because Martha Gellhorn, Rebecca West, Laura Knight, the painter in her diary, they all commented on just how ordinary and mundane and weary and bureaucratic these figures look. There was nothing glamorous about how evil they were.

There was nothing upstanding about them. They were broken, weary old men. I'm really interested in the German journalist you write about Ursula von Kardorf because she continued working in Germany during the war. I think she slightly exaggerated her anti-Nazi credentials. Presumably, she had to be something of a Nazi to be allowed to work during World War II. How did all that unfold? Yes, absolutely.

I mean, Ursula is possibly the most complicated woman of the eight that I wrote about. She was born into an aristocratic Prussian family. She was very ambitious. She wanted to be a journalist. In 1937, she did an internship for de Angref, which was a Nazi newspaper. She decided to continue to work under the Nazi press organization. So that meant she had to sign up to all of the laws, which were incredibly anti-Semitic. And she carried on writing for Nazi newspapers throughout the war.

At the end of the war, she was sent to cover Nuremberg by her editor from the perspective of a woman. And she arrives in Nuremberg and she says, nowhere is it more painful to be German than in Nuremberg. And what's so fascinating about reading her diaries is it's really looking at history from the perspective of the defeated. And Ursula had a very different experience in Nuremberg from other journalists. She was not allowed to live in a villa where the other female journalists were, were accommodated. She had to have very basic accommodation. She had very basic rations. And she viewed the trials in a very, she was very conflicted about how she viewed them

because she still had a lingering admiration for the Nazi regime. And there's a very powerful scene that she writes about in her diary towards the end of the trials, where she's in the cafeteria of the Palace of Justice with a lot of the wives of the Nazi high command. And she expresses her admiration for them. She writes about how glamorous they are. She writes about how they opened her hearts. And that's an extremely difficult thing to reconcile. And then Ursula did keep a diary.

And then in the 1960s, she reproduced it as a book called Diary of a Nightmare. She claimed that this was a faithful reproduction of her diaries. In fact, it was anything but there were significant redactions, so many edits, additions. She overstated her role in the resistance. And what was really extraordinary in the afterward to Diary of a Nightmare, she really showed absolutely no contrition. And she wrote the most extraordinary thing right at the end of it. She said she never personally saw any real changes brought about life under the Nazi regime.

She said she had some Jewish friends. They went, but others came. And I just thought that was so illuminating about her character and how little self-reflection she'd actually had in the years. since Nuremberg. Yes, I mean, it's really interesting. And she was notably a contrast to Erica Mann, who's the daughter of the German novelist Thomas Mann. And I think Thomas Mann, you couldn't read Thomas Mann, could you, during the Nazi era. So Erica Mann was genuinely anti-Nazi. And she thought the nation should bear a collective guilt, but that wasn't the view of Ursula.

Absolutely. In many ways, Ursula is the dark mirror image of Erica. Erica was a was a German. She was, as you say, she was a daughter of the Nobel Prize winning writer, Thomas Mann. Erica began her life in this gilded, in gilded luxury. Her family were part of this German literati. Literati as she grew up, she became the it girl of her day, the daring darling of German high society. She loved partying.

She loved driving fast cars. She loved drinking. I mean, she was a real good time girl. When the Nazis came to power, she really couldn't anymore ignore just how sinister and pernicious their influence was on the German nation that she loved so much.

So she rapidly underwent this incredible metamorphosis from being this it girl, good time girl, to a political polemicist and a virulent anti-Nazi campaigner. She wrote, cabaret called the pepper mill, which was a satire of Hitler and his cronies, that got her exiled from Germany. For about five minutes, she was stateless. She knew what she needed to do. She needed to get married. She asked her good friend Christopher Isherwood if he would marry her. He said no,

but one of his good friends, W.H. Orden would. So Erica went off to England, married W.H. Orden, so was able to obtain her British citizenship and was very happy to renounce her German nationality. And she dedicated the rest of her life to becoming a passionate and fearless advocate for the eradication of Nazism from any future of German history. And she believed passionately that all Germans bore a collective guilt for what happened. So whereas Ursula was constantly apologising for the Germans, Erica saw blame everywhere.

Yeah. I wish we could talk about everybody involved in the book. We can't, but we must talk about the British artist Laura Knight because you start with her a painting of Nuremberg, of the trial. And there are, it should be said, there are no women in that image, are there? Who was Laura Knight? Well, the interesting thing about that painting is that you're 100% right, there are no women.

And Laura Knight was a very famous British painter. In fact, she was the first elected member of the Royal Academy. She produced this enduring iconic image of Courtroom 600 where the trial took place. And she captures in that painting very, very much the paradox of what it was to be a woman in Nuremberg. Because in this painting, there is a scene. of men, male lawyers, male defendants. It is a world of men, as Rebecca West said, a man's world, a man's world. But you have to lean in very closely in order to see that a woman painted it. And it's fascinating that Laura Knight effectively painted herself out of history.

That painting, is it in the Imperial War Museum? Is that? Yes, it's on permanent display in the Imperial War Museum. It's an incredibly powerful painting. And I recommend anyone just, you know, to go and have a look at it because it really captures the essence and the horror of war. Laura Knight was a realist painter when she arrived in Nuremberg. But she knew that realism was not sufficient to capture what was actually the crimes that were being tried in Nuremberg. So what she decided to do in this painting is collapse the fourth wall of the courtroom and show the horror of war, the twisted metal, the smoke, the dead body. So it's an extraordinarily powerful image that captures the horror of war and men sitting in judgment of the crimes inflicted by the war. Yes, you've described it brilliantly. I'm just looking at it now. It is an incredible image which everybody should see, and they can do if they go to the Imperial War Museum.

Just worth saying that Laura herself was, she's an interesting character, isn't she? She kept a diary. And it was interesting reading about her encounter with a, as you said, there was so much poverty in. Germany at this time. I mean, I don't expect lots of people to have much sympathy about that, but there was desperate poverty there. And she meets a chambermate, and she writes in the diary that she felt very sorry for her, but quotes, not moved enough to do anything about it. Yes, absolutely. And one of the really interesting things about reading these women's diaries and then going on to read the memoirs, autobiographies, they wrote afterwards, was how much they decided to take away. In her diary, she does.

admit that she didn't want to give the chambermaid her jumper, but she manages to leave that out in her memoirs. So, yeah, Laura Knight was a complicated person. When she arrived in Nuremberg, she was horrified by the ruination that the city had come to, but she was accommodated in the Grand Hotel, which was in relatively good condition. And she stayed in what she believed to be Hitler's room,

and she wrote in her diary that she slept really soundly in Hitler's bed, which is something I've never been able to understand. So she had a very peculiar, strange and unique way of looking at the world. Thank you so much for talking to us, Natalie. Really appreciate it, and it's such an interesting book. Thank you. Natalie Livingston, her book, The Nuremberg Women at the trial that brought the Nazis to justice is out now. well worth your time. So many

fascinating stories of some remarkable women we should all know much much more about. Jane and Fee at times dot radio is our email address. We take emails about absolutely anything and everything. We look forward to hearing from you. Let's design the best ever lady car available. What else are we asking for?

Oh, I'll tell you what we will announce our book club, next book club book, sometime next week. Thank you for all of your suggestions about short stories. And honestly, if you have a have driven a bus or a coach or a mini bus actually. I'm really as I've never driven anything bigger than a car and I'm, you know,

and very small cars on the whole. I really want to know what it's like. Double-decker, single-decker, energy plus bus. I'll take it. National Express. I'll take them all. I'll take them all. Yeah. Not the Oxford tube. Not that. Why not? Well, because neither of us went to Oxford or Cambridge

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