Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Crimbo limbo

Episode Date: December 27, 2022

Another Christmas cracker of a best-of 'Off air... with Jane and Fi' for you today featuring the comedian Tom Allen who talks about how he channelled the loss of his father into his memoir "Too Much", and slipping on lubricant in aa gay sauna.Plus, the legendary chef Yotam Ottolenghi on his new cookbook "Extra Good Things" and which cultural recipes he has "bastardised" and which he would never dream of touching.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producers: Kate Lee, Emma Sherry, Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie CutlerPodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to the best of Jane and Fee with me Fee Glover and me Jane Garvey. We're going to feature our conversations with big names like the chef Jotam Otelenghi. when did you're gonna have to say it for me because it's just me getting it wrong yeah we're going then when did almonds no let me say it when did you say when did when did almonds become almonds we do not speak American. You'll be telling me it's an alternate pronunciation next. Peter in Bury St Edmunds, right. Okay, so, I mean, do I need to apologise for that one? Well, I'd like you to and so would Peter.

Okay, almond, almond. What did you say? Almonds. Almonds, almonds. Okay, I'll give that a go in future. Yotam Otolenghi has been credited with turning a nation on to the delights of middle east cooking his latest book with norma rad is called extra good things and comes from the otolenghi test kitchen the otk and if you're tempted by sambal tofu with cashews and ginger pickle or tatty scones with fennel and sausage gravy,

then it is for you, out now in time for Christmas, something a little bit more colourful and tasty to look at whilst crashed out on the sofa doing turkey and stuffing burps. Yotam is here now. Very good afternoon from us. Good afternoon. Now, it says in the introduction to your beautiful book, this book brings you an abundance of veg-forward meals from the OTK team. So let's start with what veg-forward is, and then we will do the OTK bit. Okay, and I won't say almonds or almonds. No, brilliant. What would you say if you hadn't heard that little section? Just do a natural pronunciation.

Okay, I'll say almonds. Almonds. No, almonds, he said. They do like a hybrid. Don't confuse the issue. Anyway, sorry, let's go back to being veg forward. What does that mean? So essentially, it's not a vegetarian cookbook, but it really has a focus on vegetables. And I've done this for many years. So even in my restaurants, the vegetables are at the very center of the menus. And that's still the case, even in the cookbook.

So I love vegetables. I think they are the best thing you can eat. But many people eat vegetables without being vegetarians. And this book, like all the other books that came before it, is really focused on vegetables and how you can really extract flavor out of them or inject them with flavor. on vegetables and how you can really extract flavor out of them or inject them with flavor. So all the extra good things which we can talk about are there to really get those vegetables tasting especially good. Okay. And the OTK then, this is the Ottolenghi Test Kitchen. And this is an actual place, isn't it? Yeah, it's the place. It's a place on the Holloway Road

isn't it? Yeah, it's the place on the Holloway Road in London. And essentially, it is where we create recipes. There's a team, there's a team of about five or six recipe testers. And this is where we test every single recipe that goes into books and into a newspaper column that we publish and also recipes that are tested for their London restaurants and delis, products, etc. So it's kind of the heart of the Ottolenghi hub in terms of recipe creation. And it's really fun. So, you know, as you can imagine, delicious things are happening, but also really wonderful conversations about like, wonderful conversations about what's going to go with what and what are we going to serve this Christmas as opposed to last Christmas. So it's always about food. It's very geeky, technical conversations, but also very, you know,

it's what we want to eat. It sounds amazing. Can I just ask you something about the universal palate, though? Because if you've got lots of people who are taste testing things, you know, everybody likes slightly different things, more heat, less heat, more salt, more sour, whatever, whatever. But sometimes when I watch those cookery programs, especially MasterChef, actually,

they always talk about someone having a good palate, as if there is one kind of benchmark, is there? I tend to think that there is all sorts of cultural variants and personal variants. But I do think there's something about a really good, delicious dish, when it kind of just hits the spot that is universal. With all the caveats of, you know, of all the things that are relative and how different we are from each other, etc. I do think that when you hit on something which tastes incredibly good, you know it. And so I would, I tend to agree with that, you know, with the meat, it's got an optimal cooking level, vegetables have their kind of also, I's got an optimal cooking level vegetables have their

kind of also i guess optimal to cooking level but also how much you can extract out of them so when you have when you taste something which is well done and is balanced you recognize it and you know it but when was the last time your your socks were absolutely blown off by a fantastic new combination of flavors or ingredients? So it's not necessarily something completely new every time you test something, because there is a limit to how much you can innovate in terms of putting one thing against something you've never had before. That doesn't happen very often. But the surprise or the innovation or the moment where you taste something,

you go, oh, wow, that's wonderful. That happens every single day when we try things. And, I mean, that's the beauty of these kind of creative environments. And by no means the auto-linguistic condition is not the only place where recipes are created. It happens everywhere where people create recipes for books or for any other reason. But, you know, sometimes it's the smallest, minor variation

that could make a huge difference. I'll just give you one little example today just because it's fresh. I just had it a few hours ago. I was at the test kitchen, and we have one of the recipe testers called Verena. She's a very talented baker and pastry chef. And she created the, I don't know if you know, but there's certain desserts that are called, it sounds terrible, but it's really good. It's like self-saucing. A self-saucing dessert is a dessert in which part of the pudding is not completely cooked.

So it's a bit of a sauce. So she created this thing which was an almond-based milk chocolate pudding. And before it goes into the oven, after you create the batter, you pour over a combination of cream and water. And that kind of accumulates in the bottom so the bottom doesn't cook completely so there's this kind of runny sauce going on on the bottom which makes everything so delicious and that does it was a kind of an eye-opening moment because I had that and oh gosh that is so good I have never had that I had all the flavors

together but not this particular thing. And it was utterly delicious. Can I just ask you a question on behalf of people who have sort of a few herbs knocking about, but can't usually access fresh herbs really quickly or just don't have the time to go out and buy them? So can we substitute, for example, fresh thyme with just a bit of dried thyme? Does it work the same way? And can we miss ingredients out if we just don't have them?

Totally. And I mean, people have always talked to me about, you know, look at your recipes. They've got such a long list of ingredients. I mean, is it really absolutely essential to have everything there? And I always say like, you know, it's not the case. You can substitute things.

So there's certain things you can omit, you can play around. And I mean, I kind of create a benchmark, which is the benchmark with which everything goes according to plan. But then when you take one or two things element out, you're also going to be pretty happy when you try things. I've just spoken to someone who said, oh, you know, I don't like chilies.

I don't like heat. So I cook all your recipes that are, even the ones that are all about the chilies i still make them and they're still perfectly fine and delicious for me so i i think it's really okay as as long as the ingredient is not included in the title of the recipe that's what you're okay can we play uh otolenghi roulette whereby uh you just pick a page number and we'll talk about the recipes. So you can go anywhere between page 27 and page 212. Pick a number. Do I do that? Yes, please.

Oh, 69. 69. Unusual number to pick, but here we are. Come on, Fi. Don't. Just came into it. head well it might be his date of birth you never know uh right 1969 oh i see yeah uh why did that come look let's just move on everybody rotti with golden rassam i don't even know what golden rassam is. Great pick. What is it? So rassam is a broth that comes from India. And it normally would have tamarind and lots of spices.

And in this particular case, we use yellow tomatoes. You can use red tomatoes, but it's just how wonderful it is with the turmeric and the other kind of yellowish spices. And it's got heat. It's got ginger. And it's really, it's kind of like in the hot weather, but obviously it's wonderful also in the winter. It's got that kind of heat that really penetrates and makes you sweat. And with lots of heat, lots ofrates and makes you sweat and and with lots and lots of heat lots of chili mustard seed etc and obviously the rotties that you know people would know rotti it's a wonderful flatbread um that you kind of dip it's got our rotti has got um ghee so it's cooked

with ghee which is clarified butter and you kind of dip that in your golden rasam or the rasam broth with the turmeric and all the rest. And it's just wonderfully delicious. It looks beautiful. We have some love for you, Yotam, from Eileen. I cook Yotam's courgette frittata with paprika rather than cumin. I hate cumin. And it's still a showstopper, says Eileen. So you're right, people are just mixing and matching and doing what they like with your recipes but loving loving the results anyway anonymous asks after years of using dried curry leaves not a patch on the fresh which i've just tried should i just chuck the dried ones in the bin and only use fresh from now on you shouldn't have bought them in the first place uh so dried curry leaves are just they just don't do anything that is as if they've

got no flavor whatsoever so either fresh curry leaves which freeze really well so you can buy a bunch and keep them in the freezer or just like so many other ingredients as we as we've established you can do without them uh i wouldn't i wouldn't get the the dried curry leaves it's one of those things that really don't work i don't say that about many ingredients. Many of them dry well, freeze well, go well in a can, but not curry leaves, unfortunately. Thank you. If you only had a fiver and you were cooking dinner for four,

which of your recipes would be a go-to one? Oh, you know, there's an opening, the opening recipe to the book is called beans on toast, but it's not any beans and it's not any toast. It's a kind of slightly spiced take on. So it's butter beans that come from a jar or it can come from a tin, but you can use other beans as well. And there's a kind of a mixture of cheese, cream and curry that you put on top and you toast it. And whilst the toasts are being made and all the butter melts, the cheese melts,

and things go nice and crunchy, you make a quick pickled onion, which is pickled onion, red onion sliced with a bit of cider vinegar. And that pickled onion really happens within minutes. So obviously you can make a jar and put it in your fridge, but that acidity really cuts into the richness of the beans and it's it's a quick meal and it's really fantastic it's beautiful because those um the onions go the most stunning almost

kind of neon pink don't they so that looks very nice uh you've got kids, Jotam. Do they eat as wide a diet as would be available to your customers in your restaurants? They don't like coming to my restaurants, unfortunately. So we have to, like, the only time I can get them into one of the restaurants is in the morning, like for breakfast. And then, you know, they'll have the scrambled eggs and, you know, but they find this food too intense. There's too much going on. And they would say that. I mean, it's not like they're too picky. I mean, they eat vegetables and they're okay.

But they can't stand the taste of preserved lemons. And if something is like full of green bits, lots of chopped herbs, that puts them off. So, yeah. I'm really reassured to hear that. It is reassuring. I do want to know, though, would you ever take them to such thing as a fast food emporium, your term?

They have, you know, we've had a couple of those. I live in Camden. So on the high street, really just around the corner from us, there's a bunch of fast food restaurants and they really gravitate. And it's a battle. I mean, we kind of like, I go, okay, once a month, a bunch of fast food restaurants, and they really gravitate. And it's a battle. I mean, we kind of like, I go, okay, once a month they can go to one of them. I won't mention any names, but they get their fix.

But, you know, actually, I mean, they are good with everything that I'm saying. I mean, if I love making rice, so rice or fried rice with fried onions and some nice vegetables, they'll eat that. I think what I learned with kids, the best way with kids is just to give them more of what they want. So I mean, obviously, they like starches, and they like pasta. So you just you just work with that, then you just add more thing, you load it with other nutrients. But rather than just make something that they would never touch, kids always win. nutrients, but rather than just make something that they would never touch, kids always win. Yes, well, they do. You've got restaurants. How are they doing? And are you concerned about how they'll fare over the coming months?

So far, touch wood, things have been okay for us in terms of the restaurants have been busy. I mean, we've been struggling on all kinds of fronts in the sense, I mean, like all other restaurants and so many other businesses in this country, we've been struggling to recruit and maintain staff. This is a well-known and documented problem. And many people in our industry are campaigning now to open the country to more immigrants, qualified immigrants, people that can work in kitchens and in restaurants in general. So that's a struggle. Obviously, everything is more expensive. So far, we're doing okay. But I am worried about next year, because I think people are going to feel this crisis even more, the cost of living crisis. and I am worried about how we will be able to sustain the businesses successfully with all these difficult conditions. On a completely different tip we were discussing hummus in the production office before coming on

air today I don't know whether you have strong opinions about it but do you like the pimping up of it you know you can get every type of hummus now, can't you, with the red pepper, the roasted garlic, the barbecue flavors, lime and mandarin on top. Is it right? You know, this is a thing. So it's a cultural thing. So I grew up with hummus.

Hummus is a staple of both Palestinian and Jewish residents of Jerusalem, the city where I grew up. So I love hummus and I love a really good hummus. And I really don't like all these mixes. But, and that's a huge but, I realize that this is of my culture and of my heritage. So this is why I'm quite protective. But I've done my share of bastardizing the cuisines of other places all over the world. So I can only speak for myself.

But if people want to play, they can play. But I would never touch such a thing, especially not a beetroot hummus or chocolate hummus. I think these are just abominations. Well, I totally agree with you there. Welcome to the best of Jane and Fee, where we're mulling over some of our favourite conversations from the last couple of months. Tom Allen has got a little book out, it's called Too Much. It's been provoked by the sudden death of his beloved dad in 2021.

It's a collection of anecdotes about his life so far. It's witty and smart and very sad in places. It covers everything from the challenge of mending white goods to why the American toilet has made the whole of the USA very stressed. It goes via some gay bathhouses and some fun times in Kyoto with a man called Jeff,

but not like that. Hello, Tom. Hello. Wow, what a great roundup. You did that better than I could have done myself. Well, look, would you start by telling us a bit about your dad? Because he does sound so fabulous. And you put ahead of every chapter a little thing that he said or did that has really meant something to you.

And he just comes across as such a wise, lovely bloke. Oh, well, that's very nice of you to say. Well, I am cursed with this posh voice, of course. just comes across as such a wise, lovely bloke. Oh, well, that's very nice of you to say. Well, I am cursed with this posh voice, of course, but it's not from anywhere. My parents are really kind of working-class Londoners, I suppose. My dad was from Penge, although he would say, I'm not from Penge, I'm from Annerley,

which he thought sounded better, but it didn't. And my mum grew up in Sydenham, and my dad was a coach driver. But sort of since losing him, I've realised that he did have moments of great wisdom. So my publisher suggested actually framing each chapter with something he'd said. And then I realised, well, my dad wasn't like Giles Brandreth, didn't have like witty epithets for everything. But he would have odd phrases like, it's cold enough for a handbag which doesn't actually mean anything I've since realised. It just meant it was very cold. I assumed it was something Cockney

but no one's ever said it before in Cockney, Fitchier or elsewhere. So he said some eccentric things. I won't repeat any of the obscene ones he said but he did also, he would have nice ones like you can never have too much love which I thought was a nice,

I realise it's a very profound thing to say, but it's not like gas and oil, it doesn't run out. And also always go into things with a good heart. So I think it's very easy to go into things kind of kicking and screaming. He said it to me about maths. I said, I don't like maths. He said, go into it with a good heart because you're going to have to do it. So you can go into it hating it or you can go into it trying it we can go into it like you know trying to like it and i did and i quite liked it in the end i like the bit in the book where you talk about a an attempt by you very good-hearted attempt to do the right thing for

your parents and take them somewhere you thought they'd like because you could because you've done very well for yourself and actually you go to a hotel it's in cornwall it's a hotel in cornwall and i thought they'll love this uh it was very chic and modern and, you know, very cool. And I thought, oh, I'll treat them to this because I'm on tour and I could afford it. And I wanted to treat them, but they absolutely hated it. And, well, my dad especially. They didn't have a reception area. So they just had a man with a clipboard and some eyebrows coming out when my dad arrived.

And my dad, he was like, can I help you at all, sir? And my dad went, yeah, I just want to check in dad and he was like can i help you at all sir and my dad went yeah i just want to check in and he was like well we don't really have a reception and we just you know how are you feeling would you like a juice and i was like no i wouldn't i just want to get my room keys and then later that i got an amazing room overlooking the ocean went into their room later in the day and they pulled the curtain and i said why have you done that well it's oh it's too bright and I and then my mum went oh it's too warm in here for your dad and I said why don't you open the window my dad went oh the sea is too loud it's like a motorway and I realized as well that I thought this would be a wonderful

treat and of course actually it was just me trying to impose my silly you know urban you know cool trendy ways well you had become horrifically sophisticated well put it that way that is very kind of you to say it means a lot do you find it quite difficult in in these interviews to be constantly asked about your tags actually that's a very recent loss well i suppose i didn't really consider it uh because i just thought like with stand-up which i do is my main stay, I try and talk about things that matter and that connect with people because they are

important to me and other people go, oh, I relate to that as well and so I just felt, well, with this I should maybe try and put it on paper and just be honest because I think it's very easy to sort of assume that it's all going to be like particularly with grief that it would be like a film or a book. A lot of times people have quite glib things they say to you and I particularly with grief, that it would be like a film or a book.

A lot of times people have quite glib things they say to you. And I just thought, well, if I write about it honestly, then maybe it'll help other people. So I suppose it is a little bit tricky, but to be honest, it's been nice to talk about Dad and, you know, have space to do that. Oh, good. Hopefully not in a Downer way. I'm not a Debbie Downer over here talking about dead relatives.

No, you're an ursula uplifter oh that's very good she prepared that no that's beautiful actually that's beautiful jane i feel like i've been very flattered jane said something uh very true actually uh about the book before you came on air that you you're very capable and confident as a writer to share but not to over share and that's quite a tricky thing, isn't it? Because I think there is some oversharing at the moment. Oh, what, in life generally? Oh, yeah, and in some memoirs.

And in some memoirs, really? Well, I thought, well, of course, one wants to make it accessible to the people reading it. And of course, I did want to make it humorous because that's always been my default setting. And even in grief, you do do laugh you do find funny things and like you know so I just tried to kind of stick to those rules but has anyone pulled you back sometimes in your writing and said actually you know maybe you don't want to nobody wants to hear this no actually nobody

said that to me I thought they might but nobody did and I did try and be just as honest and as vulnerable as I could be David Sedaris I think has the saying of just think about what you're really ashamed of. Think about what really makes you cringe with embarrassment and then write about that. And so I tried to learn from that, really, because I think that is true. Because with a book, people take you on holiday with them and they take you to bed with them. And so you owe it to them to be truthful. So I tried to do that as much as possible. Which is a lovely way to enter the part of the

conversation where I wanted to tackle American toilets and feel so oh yes they're not the same as ours they're not the same are they no um well the thing is I didn't realize until I read your book it's the door that why are they why there's barely a door there but I think the male stalls are very different to females well that must be it yes. So it was a whole new world that you took me into. Well, it was very, they're very high, they start very high off the ground and they finish quite low down. So there's barely a sort of strip across the middle and there's gaps around the

outside of the doors. These are in public toilets, of course. But then sometimes they have like louvre doors on them as well. You know, those sort of slatted doors on them. And I found that very alarming. And I can only understand why they're so polarised at the moment with that's their stress that's underpinning their society. You have shy bladder syndrome.

I do. Do you? No. That's a personal question. But I do. No, sorry, I thought we were going to go into a phone-in. It's like being back on Woman's Hour. Isn't it just like being back on Woman's Hour? By the way, it's not a laughing matter if you do have a shy bladder. Well, I do as well.

I've gone for whole journeys. Yes. I never used to be able to go on a train. Right. And how does that... And I used to go to Edinburgh on the train. I thought it was better for the environment. Oh, please.

You couldn't possibly have gone on the train all the way to Edinburgh and not gone to the loo. I went to Australia as a teenager without going to the loo. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's not difficult. You must have been in agony. Well, you know, pain is sometimes a source of great inspiration to me. That's a different phoneme. That's a different phoneme.

It really is. It's a different station. I think it's your next book as well, Tom. OK, Too Much is the name of Tom's latest memoir. It actually has genuinely made us both laugh and it's also very touching at times. Would you mind talking us through not the entire chapter where you visit a gay sauna for the first time, but some of the tension around that because you I think you were

22. Yes. And Fiona was saying earlier, this is a world that obviously no straight woman is ever going to navigate. And it just, seems such uh an intimidating place to enter well it was and i certainly found it so and um i well i was sort of led to believe that that was where every gay person went and so i was kind of curious about these places and i think as a as a queer young person you often do end up going on these journeys on your own because you might not have people around you who you can immediately identify with. So you sort of go out on your own. And I remember going to this place, which was next to a wine shop, as I remember,

a majestic wine shop in the East End. I had to sort of go across this car park because gays have to pay and display. And that could be the name. Anyway, I went in and was quite intimidated. But then there was, you know, there were bits of it where it's quite sociable, where there's like a tuck shop and there were people sat around watching Emmerdale Farm. It was the fact that it was Club Biscuits. And was there really Emmerdale Farm on the screen?

On the screens they had, yeah. Yeah. And then, and then, and yeah, Club Biscuits and Kit Kats as well. Okay. All manner of confectionery. And there was all these different areas which were quite intriguing. I mean, I was sort of more intrigued by the interior decor. One bit was sort of themed around ancient Greece.

Another bit was sort of themed around, well, it sort of had carpet on a stairwell with a plot, looked like a photocopy shop. But it had all these different zones, like the crystal maze. So it was very intriguing. And I was sort of more drawn to that actually and didn't really go in there for the purpose that it was set out for um I just actually had quite an intriguing time walking around well walking around until you fell over well I did slip over yes um you know sort of what was I suppose my first attempt at slapstick comedy and did make the person who was staring at me at the time laugh

and sort of broke down barriers. And that's a good thing, isn't it? And what was really touching was that your dad, I think, picked you up from the station. Yes, well, yes. So nothing happened there, really. And I got a bit tired, a bit tired of walking around in a towel. And I haven't really got the chest for walking around in a towel.

And I was trying to look more pronounced, but I just ended up sticking out my nipples and then um I went home and as I was on the train dad said are you all right do you want to lift and I said yes and that so it was the least kind of um extreme experience I could have had in that context and my dad always was very much on hand with a with a lift and he said did you have have a nice evening? And I just went, yes, and didn't tell him anymore. Right. Could you have told him anymore? No. No, okay.

Would anybody? No, I mean, I think I probably could have done. But no, I just, we sort of, what I found in writing the book is a lot of our connection, a lot of our relationship was actually about things we didn't say. Like my dad would show he cared by making me a bacon sandwich. And he would give a bacon sandwich to anybody who came to the house, vegans, anybody really. So it's sort of the complexities of affection, I think, are one of the things I've realised. Tom, have you ever been to Japan?

I have been to Japan. I don't like to mention it, but I have been to Japan. But people go to Japan solely for the purpose of telling other people they've been to Japan, I think. And let me tell you, it is a wonderful place, very polite. There were signs that said things like, I went to a temple, there was a sign across it saying, please don't come in. And I thought that was a lovely thing and I would like that perhaps on my house. And also, it's very polite, of course, in Japan. Everyone takes their shoes off all the time. People do a lot of bowing.

A friend of mine, a so-called friend, and I went to all the time. People do a lot of bowing. We, a friend of mine, a so-called friend, and I went to find a theatre in Kyoto, a very beautiful old city. Wandering around, could not find this theatre. Eventually found this very uplit building, very beautiful.

Thought this must be it. Walked in, went through the screens, walking through all the different rooms, couldn't find anybody to ask what was going on or what to do. All these empty rooms, just walking around.

And then this woman came out eventually in a very immaculate, traditional Japanese outfit and makeup and hair. and she looked at us up and down quite alarmed and then she went this is my house and we was awful because we were there with our shoes on and we had to do a lot of bowing to get out of that. What I love about that is that you went for no idea why you went in August, July and August of 2012, when everything was happening here. Well, everybody said,

do you remember that everybody was saying, oh, the Olympics is going to be awful. Oh, it's going to be, you can't go to London. Everyone was so down on it. Everyone was going, oh, it's going to be awful. You can't get the tube

and they're telling us to stay at home. I mean, can you imagine such a thing being told to stay at home? Oh, I never wanted the Olympics and it's costing so much money. And then as soon as it started, everybody went, oh, isn't the Olympics great? Aren't we great?

And I thought, well, hang on a second. For the last, whatever it was, years, seven years, you've all been moaning about it. So I thought, well, I'm going to get out of here if we're all going to be moaning all the time. Went to Japan when it was actually quite cheap to fly there, obviously because no one was flying that way round. Everybody's flying into London. No one's flying out way round everybody's flying into london

no one's flying out and it's absolutely boiling like 100 humidity which i thought was what does that mean sounds like a river yeah it was very very warm i think you're a deliciously uh contradictory person tom because on the one hand in your writing you've got a kind of vulnerability and uh you know you're capable of admitting that you were shy, you had difficulties in your life and all that kind of stuff. You kind of make out that you would be very happy just being at home a lot. But then you take off to Kyoto, you take off to Japan. Tonight he's going to East Grinston. Tonight I'm in East Grinston.

You stand up in New York. You know, you do push yourself as well. So how do those two things kind of add up? Well, I don't know. I think I just quite like the idea of challenging myself and i think you see you go through with it lots of people like the idea but they never get further than east grinstead i don't i almost yes i almost do it as a dare to myself i think it's so kind of doing stand-up was sort of so ridiculous that i should have ever attempted it but then i quite liked the audacity of it and then kind of kept

going but more and more as i've got older, I do quite like just sitting indoors quietly. And I think the world would be a better place if everyone just sat down and shut up. That was another one of the things my dad said, actually. If you can't improve on the silence, keep your mouth shut. Well, it's not a piece of advice for you and I want to hear. No, it's not. I wasn't saying it to you. I wasn't saying it to you or to anybody or anybody in the radio industry.

Having said that, you have always, according to the book anyway, had an affinity with middle-aged women. Arcalers, dinner ladies were a big favourite. You were the lad who would gather by the dinner lady who was watching over the playground. Yes, she was my main friend. And around about that time, when I was at primary school, I did develop a sort of identity,

or identified with High Synth Bouquet quite strongly. I did feel like very much I was a middle aged middle class suburban housewife, and not a housewife, I actually wouldn't describe myself as a natural figure. And even though I was sort of nine years old, which is quite a lot to explain to a dinner lady in Bromley. And yet, I still felt very strongly that I must be in some way connected to Hyacinth Bouquet. And latterly sort of became more identified with Patricia Routledge herself. I felt very frustrated. Like, why was I being made to do PE? Patricia Routledge wouldn't have to do PE. Why was I having to do, why was I having to do,

you know, a spelling test? Patricia Routledge wouldn't have to do a spelling test. Well, she probably did in her time yes probably probably I realise that now but I was unusual I didn't have many children I didn't have many friends

because I told the other children that I was an emperor so it's I was odd definitely but I sort of think I owe it to people to say well I'm odd sometimes

and then other people go well actually I'm a bit odd as well and then we all feel a bit less alone well your emperor-ness Noss what would we say how would you address an emperor imperial majesty

your imperial majesty it's been really lovely to have you in our studio today lovely to be here thank you very much indeed for coming in Now, you've been listening to Off Air. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. You can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or download every episode from wherever else you get your podcasts.

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