Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Deja Vu in Bromley (with Clare Balding)

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

Fi's back for this particularly spooky episode. They discuss long bosoms, late night thrashing thoughts and priest holes... Beware! Plus they're joined by Clare Balding (and her partner Alice) to discuss Clare's new book 'Isle of Dogs: A Canine History of Britain'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Welcome back. Thank you. It says here. No, we just start, first of all, with a complaint. But don't worry, it's for me. It's from Patricia. She's just about. She's had a belly full, has Patricia all, with a complaint. But don't worry, it's for me. It's from Patricia. She's just about. She's had a belly full, has Patricia Fee. Oh, no.

Just listen to Fee and I. What? You and Jane M were only discussing this atrocious grammatical error the other day. The kind professor has pointed it out. It drives me crazy. Please learn how to use I and me correctly, or I might have to stop listening. From Patricia. Well, Pat, if I can call you Pat, I'm going to make a concerted effort

to never get that wrong again because I know you're not alone. I do get it wrong. Yeah, it infuriates people. Do you think it might just be that we're saying something that sounds more natural to us? It may not be correct, sorry, in speech, right, but it may just feel more natural. And so in the end, it will become correct. What are you suggesting? Oh, my word. Like a kind of democratic revolution of punctuation and grammar.

It does happen, doesn't it? It evolves. Well, I think the... Are you all right there, Eve? Drop the mouse. I think the semicolon has been lost to a whole generation through lack of use, and I don't think it's ever coming back. And sometimes I've tried to explain to the offspring

what a semicolon and a colon is for. And I find that I don't really know anymore. I'm not sure I ever knew what a semicolon was for, although I enjoy occasionally employing them without ever really understanding their true worth. Yeah. A colon is when you're about to kind of list things, isn't it? Yeah. And what would you say a semicolon's for?

A natural break in a thought yeah okay natural break in a or a thought yeah the natural well maybe pat can send us a another email and use some semicolons and then we'll understand that better but yeah yeah, I do the thing and I thing all the time. So I apologise for that too. It's not just you. Did you have a nice week? Yes. Okay. No, I had, Jane Malkerians was here.

And we had, actually, we had a really interesting, it started off on Monday when Jane read out an email from a listener who, and I'm not trying to, well, I will try to paraphrase, but I don't want to get this correspondent's thoughts wrong. But the gist of it was at 42, she'd started dating women and had never looked back. And that led to some really interesting thoughts from other people about their own sort of just wondering whether their sexuality was set in stone, whether they might want to try something different. And then we had some really interesting responses from lesbians in particular saying, don't enter our world as tourists, knowing that you can go back.

Yes, it's not a day trip. No, exactly. So it was really, really interesting. We're still getting emails on that subject. And, you know, I think it's such a fascinating area. I really do, because everybody has a view. And and also there's this idea as well that you have that moral, not moral imperative, the reproductive imperative. So if you are female, you might just want to get pregnant.

And there's really obviously there are other ways to do it now but on the whole it's easier just to have sex with a male of the species and fanny's your aunt bob's your uncle if you're lucky so you can do it that way but it may not actually be once your reproductive days are over that that is where your your true intentions lie that's a theory yes i don't know so uh so strike this from the, if you've had exactly this conversation and this question was asked of you by the lovely Moll Kerens. But I suppose that it doesn't only really matter if you look back on your life and think, if times had been different, then I would have been able to act on something that I felt.

Isn't that...? Yeah, well, the idea now is that everybody... Of course, then it's not true, because it might be true in Britain, it might be true in middle-class Britain, parts of it, but not everyone in Britain is completely free to explore their sexuality. And there are plenty, millions of people all over the world who couldn't hope to do it. So it's a very, very, it's a big area this.

Massive. It's a huge area. I'm sorry to have missed that. No, no. You could always listen. You can get the podcast off air on all good podcast platforms. No, it was a really, it was some really thoughtful, thoughtful emails last week and I'm sure there will be this week. We are doing, because it's

Halloween on, when is it? Wednesday night. Tomorrow, is it tomorrow? Yes, tomorrow, Tuesday. So I was saying to Fee earlier that my student daughter, who's at uni in a city in the northeast of the country, there are bouncers on the door of the Halloween shop because Halloween is now substantially bigger than Christmas. It is.

It's just weird, isn't it? Have you seen the image that's being widely shared of a pumpkin that had been put above a doorway and then overnight? And it is a brilliant image. The pumpkin has slightly collapsed. And so it looks like its chin is just kind of lying across. It's a brilliant image. I'll search it out. It's got a face and it just looks like it's, oh, I'm tired already. And it's not even Halloween yet. It's very good.

Well, there's a thing on the Toptic about smashing pumpkins this year. So you either carve a beautiful pumpkin and you're putting that up or you're smashing a beautifully carved pumpkin. And obviously the younger generation don't make the connection to the smashing pumpkins. The band. To be honest, I'm too old to make the connection to the Smashing Pumpkins. I do remember, I couldn't name a song by them.

So I think that's where it all started. But of course, when I said to my offspring, well, that's about the Smashing Pumpkins, they had the same look that you've just had. So not everything is really conveyed very well by TikTok. And I may be the first person on the planet to say that. What an observation. I know.

Catherine says, and this is the terrible thing about coming back from holiday when you haven't listened to your own product for a week, but have you been talking about long bosoms? Yes. Do you want another one about long bosoms? I like this one. Catherine says, long-time listener, first-time emailer,

my daughter, who was five at the time, decided to come into the bathroom and watch me have a shower. While she was sat on the toilet lid down, she commented, Oh, mummy, look at your boo-boos. Aren't they long? Very depressing, but probably quite true. I don't know where to go from there. A bit more on sexual fluidity from Catherine, who says, I had to get in touch with your recent conversations.

On Mother's Day earlier this year, I was talking to some of my mum friends who, having all organised our own Mother's Day celebrations and presents, having pragmatically realised that if we didn't do it ourselves, our husbands probably wouldn't, and then we'd be annoyed and the day would be ruined. So actually, it would be better if we just got on and did it. We discussed how lovely it would be to live in a women's commune with loads of other caring women who'd all be invested

in making stuff like that happen for each other, but knowing deep down that we prefer men. And that's absolutely fine, Catherine. That's an option. And I think quite often heterosexuality is about appreciating the difference. That's why some people go for it. Not everybody, but some people go for it precisely because men are not the same as women.

For all their faults, sometimes you can't help loving them. Is that a country and western song? I don't know. Anyway, Catherine's from New Zealand. Perhaps things are different there. She says, I first heard about you two from Pandora and

Dolly's podcast, and that's at the Hilo, which Pandora Sykes did with Dolly Alderton and this is my cat-handed and very convoluted way of saying that Dolly Alderton's going to be with us next week, isn't she? Yes. So we're interviewing her this week but we're going to put the interview out next week because she's got a new

book out. She's got a new novel called Good Material. And interestingly, harking back to exactly your last thought. It's all produced this. She has written her latest novel from a male perspective. Well, she has. It's about a comedian who splits up with his girlfriend after four years together. And the first, I think, three quarters of the book,

I've just finished it, is from his perspective. And then we get her view of their relationship right at the end. So it's going to be maybe a slightly frustrating conversation where three women try and imagine whether or not she's really nailed the male perspective. But I would argue that there have been many, many discussion programmes between three men where they've talked about exactly the female equivalent. Well, do you know what I was thinking about the other day?

I remember when old Kevin Keegan came out with this, I don't like ladies commentating on football. Yes. And I've got a I remember when old Kevin Keegan came out with this, I don't like ladies commentating on football. Yes. And I've got a lot of time for Kevin Keegan. He had a hit song, played for Liverpool, you know, all good things. He's got hair like yours. Very. Well, when it was permed.

Exactly. Thank you very much. That's a compliment. And I think it is. That's a compliment. And I'm going to take it. But then, you know, I was thinking only in the middle of the night, the other night, I don't know why I was thrashing about.

If men can be bloody obstetricians, I don't know why I was thrashing about, if men can be bloody obstetricians, why can't women commentate on football? Is that really what you thrash about thinking about in the middle of the night? Let's have a slightly sinister story for Halloween from Nicky. In 1990, my friend and I were driving an old Datsun around New Zealand. That's terrifying in itself, isn't it? We're back in New Zealand. He's terrifying in itself, isn't it? We're back in New Zealand. He's looking not all that frightened so far.

We stopped off at the island's oldest church and went our separate ways to explore it and its churchyard. We met at the door and I asked her if she'd heard the singing. If she'd heard the singing. Because I couldn't see anybody. She'd heard the singing separately too. We didn't really discuss it. We didn't know what to say. Right, we got back in the Datsun

and drove away a bit faster than we'd arrived. Oh, that was ghost singing? Nothing to worry about. Have you seen a ghost? No. Okay. Another one here from Anne. My mum has.

Has your mum seen a ghost? Yes, she has. I mentioned your experience in Bromley but that wasn't a ghost exactly was it that was just you let me get this right you when you went to Bromley realising you'd been to Bromley before yes

which is terrifying on all sorts of levels I know there's quite a lot of you know the years between 1990 and 1996 when you don't entirely remember. I couldn't immediately place myself anywhere. When you were in that catsuit. So when did your mum, when did she see a ghost? Come on, try it once more with interest.

Did your mum ever see a ghost? So mum wouldn't describe herself as a kind of believer in those type of things at all. She's a very practical woman. But we lived in this quite old house in Hampshire don't start and our dog um at the time used to go absolutely wild sometimes in the middle of the night and he'd sit at the bottom of the staircase and howl like probably howl with fear and my mum who loves her history did quite a lot of kind of digging around about the people who'd lived in the house before and how all the house went back to and stuff and there had been a priest hole to the left-hand side of the fireplace.

Yes. And you know what happened to an awful lot of priests in priest holes. They didn't make it out in time. Did they starve? No, I mean, they just couldn't come out because, you know, the police forces of the church, whichever church it was at the time, either Catholic or Protestant, was rampaging around.

And it's quite possible that a priest had died in that priest hole. And the way that the house was configured, the staircase had been built later, and the dog was howling at the back of where the priest hole was. And my mum used to stay up at night, and I always admired her for this, Jane, because we were living on our own, so she was the only adult in the house.

It was a little bit rural. And she used to stay up because she really wanted to meet the spirit or the ghost or whatever who was there. And she did feel quite a presence one night. Isn't that spooky? And she's just not. No, no. She's not woo-woo.

I don't think she's got any purple clothes. Being deliberately offensive here. Please email in. But I always thought that that was quite telling, actually. I would say i could never i i would not mock anyone who said they'd felt a presence i genuinely mean that i i just wouldn't do it because uh who knows what lies between here and there yeah and also because you just want you if if that is to happen then don't you want someone to be able to recognise your presence? You'd be very upset if you come back and haunt the News UK radio studios

and everybody's like, no, I don't feel a thing. You'd be really upset. I suppose I would. Gosh, you've got me dead and I'm already a ghost. Anne says, I live in an old cottage dating from Tudor times. I've never seen a whole ghost. But since living here, I regularly catch a glimpse of the back of somebody coming past the front windows, heading towards the front door.

It's so real. I've often gone to the door and there isn't anybody there. I'm not sure why, but as I get older, I'm now 78 and a half. This seems to be happening more often. However, I've never felt scared. I'm just curious. No, I think that's the right way to be, Anne. Don't be scared because whatever that is, it cannot do you any harm, nor would it seek to. It's just going about its business.

Can we just return to bosoms for a second? Well, we can if you like it. Well, one of my half-term chores was to sort out the underwear drawer and it was very pleasing, actually. It was a very satisfying activity. Do you recycle your old underwear? I do. I've sent them all off to the local Oxfam shop,

all very nicely washed and wrapped up. Why is there a double A and a double D bra, but there aren't double Bs and double Cs? Why do some letters have doubles and others don't? I can reveal there are also double Gs. Are there? Okay, but I think there's just... I think there might be double Hs.

I think there's just an F, there's just an E. That's okay. But that's a question I can't answer. I thought you'd know. Well, you know that... Because you've been on The Hour of Woman for 740 years. Yes, and I went for a bra fitting. Oh, there you go.

You're practically an expert. I made a feature about it. And actually, do you know what? It was really sad because I had a brilliant woman who fitted me for a bra at Selfridges and she said it was obviously her job. That's what she did. She wasn't just a keen amateur who volunteered

to measure my bottoms for the radio. That's a job that I really hope men never do. No, they won't. No, they definitely won't. Anyway, she said that the first thing that every woman says when they enter that bra-fitting environment is... Sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah.

And isn't that really telling and a bit tragic? Yeah. What do you think we should... Well, just turn it to... Just don't feel the need to apologise for just standing there. Because just in case anyone listening has never been for one of these things or they may not have bosoms, when you go for a bra fitting, and I appreciate most women don't go for a bra fitting, you just sort of stand there topless, don't you, while they assess you.

On the whole, well, that's what they used to do. don't you, while they assess you? On the whole? Well, that's what they used to do. I think maybe is it post-Covid? Has it changed? I don't know. It's been a very long time since I've been assessed. But I think some shops just do proper fittings where you don't actually stand there naked. You just get measured. And there's that difference between the measurement

around your ribcage and your actual bust as you're cup-sized. I didn't know that until I was about 32. No. It's a secret world. It is. And as you say, let's keep the fellas out of that world. Yes.

For the time being. But we do need an answer to your very interesting question about letters. Thank you, darling. This is from Liv and Polly by Proxy. Okay. Just writing with a potentially otherworldly experience. My triplet sister and I, just the two of us, number three wasn't available, were staying in a... Oh, I already feel quite scared. We were staying in a very old coaching inn in County Wicklow.

We hadn't been talking about anything even remotely related to ghosts. We'd been for a long hike in the Wicklow Hills. We were very tired. We were sharing a room with twin beds. I woke up in the middle of the night and immediately I knew there was a ghost behind me. I don't believe in them, but nevertheless I was very sure. There was the ghost of a malevolent old man standing behind me. My skin was crawling with fear.

I was facing my sister's bed and I did think about waking her up, but then I thought that would be mean, as then we'd both be scared, so I just huddled down with my eyes very tightly shut and said lots of prayers. I don't believe in God, but all Catholic habits die hard. Then I felt the ghost pass over me. It was like a cold breeze, but one that was full of millions of minuscule shards of ice that I could feel pricking my skin. I was petrified.

I said prayers under the covers until I fell asleep. Gosh. Has anyone seen a ghost from about 1982? What, you mean dressed as somebody from Spandau Ballet? Yes. Has anyone seen a ghost who just looks a bit like Pat Sharp? Right. Somebody somewhere will have done.

Because it is just true, isn't it? They're always from the 17th, 18th century. Well, that's because they're restless. They've been restless for a very, very, very long time. We're talking to the historian, Philippa Gregory later in the week, aren't we? Well, let's ask her.

We've got some cracking guests lined up, actually. I'm very excited. Right, do you think it's time to go into our main guest? Is this in any way connected to the spirit world? I don't think so. So alive and kicking, it's Claire Balding. So Claire was in today to talk about her latest book, which is called Isle of Dogs,

and it does what it says on the tin, really. It's an exploration and a bit of a journey around the UK meeting all kinds of dog owners and people who do different things with dogs so I found it a really fascinating book I kind of thought oh yes I'm a dog owner I've had a dog for years I know lots of things about dogs but there's some really cracking chapters just about the people who are using dogs for medicine. So dogs, you know, who can sniff out diseases and dogs who are helpful. So working with kids who are on the autistic spectrum or older people with dementia. It's a really interesting book.

And obviously one of the reasons why you and I are very happy to have Claire on the programme is because we're both mentioned in the book. Well, that was one of the reasons. Can I just say something about St Bernard dogs? Yes. It's only really quite recently that I realised that they didn't actually, you know, put bandages on people. Sorry, I knew you'd say rude words.

For heaven's sake, Jane. What did you think? Did you think they poured out the brandy? Didn't they got their little paws and unscrewed the barrel from the neck? We used to see an amazing image of and unscrewed the barrel from the neck. Amazing image of them with the little thing around their neck. And I suppose there was a part of me that thought they also dealt with minor sprains. Well, how would they? Well, they wouldn't. But there you go. I mean, it's just one of those things. Sometimes, you know, life lets you down. Reality intervenes, doesn't it? Yeah. Did you know that one third of British households now has at least one dog?

That is a lot, isn't it? There are around 13 million dogs across our islands. So when Claire came in, for a start she brought us both a glass of wine. No one's ever done that on the programme before. She hadn't paid for it, we need to make clear.

She'd been on the Times Wine Times podcast with Annika. She had, yep. And she pointed out that in the introduction, I'd missed out one very important dog. You've missed out the most important dog that is in this book. What? Which? Nancy. Nancy the greyhound.

And Dora gets her mention, Jane. I know, and she's taken the news really calmly. Has she? Yeah, well, she hasn't actually attacked a visitor to the house now. We know. And she's taken the news really calmly. Has she? Yeah. Well, she hasn't actually attacked a visitor to the house now. We're getting on for three weeks. There we go. She's mellowing.

Like you, she's mellowing. Oh, well, I wouldn't get that far. Dora is my tabby. I should say, get on with the interview. No, no. Fee's trying to interview you, Claire. No, but where did Dora come from? She came from, well, the Rescue Centre rescue centre animal sanctuary in Basingstoke.

Yes. During lockdown. Why? Because you posed for a photograph with her for the cover of Hampshire Life. And I sent you a photo and said, you have to have this kitten. She's really sweet. And then you've changed her. And now she's vicious.

Dora is so not sweet. So there was one terrible incident. I haven't been round to Jane's house very much. Six years. I'm only about, they Jane's house very much. Six years. I'm only allowed there kind of on day release once a decade. But I bent down to stroke Dora. That was a mistake. Yes.

And she just, she clasped all of her claws around my hand to the point at which I kind of had to throw her off, you know, as if it was an Olympic sport. So both of you have a copy of this book fee because of because of nancy being in it jane actually bought one actually paid her own money and bought it at the book launch cheap no um no because that was being sold at full price in an independent bookshop oh yes sorry yes indeed anyway um to i guess i would think just look at the index see if she gets a mention see that she does read that bit.

And in the bit about you both, I do make the point, which I stand, oh, unless they edited this out for fear of legal action, I basically make the point that Fee is a dog and Jane is a cat. No, that's still in there. Is it? Good. And you'll be hearing from my people. so yes you very uh you came to interview nancy because she's a rescue greyhound and you've got a chapter about the uh the joy of the rescue dog and i have to say that um for my children because nancy is very much a family pet uh even though i think she's just mine uh it has it has made their life that that they and a dog that they love included in a book.

It's just it's proved to be quite a kind of magical thing for them. Oh, wow. So I just say an enormous thank you to that. I mean, obviously, it doesn't matter. I'm on the radio every day, Claire, and doing numerous other things. The fact that the pet dog and a meal that we cooked for you and Alice is in a book, that seems to outshine absolutely everything. I think Brian and Barbara got a mention as well.

They did. They're my kittens. Yeah. Yeah. Look, let's talk about lots of other things that are in the book that seems to outshine absolutely everything i think brian and barbara got a mention as well they did they're my kittens yep yeah look let's talk about lots of other things that are in the book but thank you for mentioning our part in it i also want to point out that um i have come bearing gifts today uh a little a little chardonnay from um argentina because earlier today i was doing the wine podcast how much much earlier, Claire? A couple of hours ago. I've sobered up a lot. I was doing the wine podcast. Was it called the Wine Times? Yes, with Will Lyons.

Yes, and Annika Rice. So I've come from there and they said, would I like to take the rest of any of the bottles? And I said yes, because I knew you would enjoy it. I knew Jane wouldn't because she needs fizz. Makes that very clear when she's at a party that doesn't have any. So enough about your book launch. Right, carry on with the interview.

Sorry. So look, let's talk about Isle of Dogs. So the opening to the book is quite something actually, Claire. Would you like me to just read you? Just to remind you of it. Yes, do. But also there's a section that I can't read. And I went when I went when we were doing the audio book, I I had to go back and, you know, because it's really sad. And I was struggling with

it a bit. Don't read that. Okay, okay. Well, I think I know what you're referring to. And we might come on to that a little bit later. But the book opens like this. I was so lucky to grow up surrounded by dogs. The very first being I truly connected with as a kindred spirit was not my mother but her dog Candy the boxer Candy was the one I looked to for reassurance and support and she was the one who helped me transition from crawling to walking by allowing me to grab her rolls of excess skin and haul myself to my feet she was the one who comforted me if i was crying she was my playmate and until my little brother was born my one and only companion gosh i mean that's quite

something isn't it the dog was the thing is it yes to me that's that's completely normal yeah i think i probably thought she was my mother because that's the face I connected with. But mum had a, you know, she was, I think she agrees with that completely. And it's amazing how many people come up to me and say, gosh, your childhood, I tell my children, you know, read the first book I wrote, which is called My Animals and Other Family,

which kind of charts this rather feral childhood. And lots of parents use it as a you know way of showing their children that that it's perfectly fine to be ignored but for a time you're 21 and then ignored a bit more how long have we got today claire but you actually thought that you were a dog for a while in your childhood i did yeah i thought it was a good thing to be i think it's fine to be a dog don't you yes i've always well i thought i was a cat you see that's the weird thing what kind of cat very much a cat person uh i don't think i was really very breed specific about it no but i mean personality wise what kind of cat oh uh you know warm cuddly fluffy not like an exploring

cat or an investigative cat or a cat that could leap from roof to roof, you know? Oh, I see what you mean. No, I think they kind of curl up and, you know, be heavily petted by a kind human kind of cat. And I think I just absolutely adored the symmetry of a cat's face. And actually, my mum said that I wouldn't go to sleep without a little postcard of a cat that my granny had sent me. And it was posted on my cot and I couldn't go to sleep

unless I was looking at a cat. Isn't that weird? No, I think that's just lovely. Yeah. Anyway, look, this interview is going off in quite strange directions. I'm quite enjoying Jane's face. That's more than you ever knew about her, exactly. Learning a great deal about you both.

So do you want to talk about Archie or is that a bit too painful? No, no, no. I just don't want to talk about the end of Archie's life but no the the sort of purpose behind the book was give me giving myself an excuse to hang out with other people's dogs so off we go around the country I drag Alice with me for some of it and um and actually she writes the last chapter to give her point of view, because I've, you know, sort of I've mocked her throughout for her excessive negativity. So she has to put her point of view. But, yeah, I just wanted to sort of see where we are with dogs in the country right now, the sort of things they do for us. And it is extraordinary. I mean, you come across dogs that do all sorts and you were talking about it earlier on the program but you know dogs are an extraordinary bonus to our lives but also if we train them properly there are all sorts of things they can do that are

really massively positive. So what was the thing that you came across that most surprised you? Well the theory from some historians is that the domestication of dogs of them actually living in our homes becoming part of the family didn't really happen until Victorian times but yesterday at Stratford Literary Festival I spent my train journey back with a medieval historian who was terrific and he said oh no there's loads of evidence that in the middle ages dogs were part of the family and not only sort of buried with knights and you know you quite often see those marble tombs and a dog will be um you know part of it part of it exactly um but also that they were really regarded as another another

child so i think it is it goes back way further i went to um there was a neolithic tomb on mainland Orkney that I went and explored and called Queen Hill and that had a central chamber for the humans and then chambers around for the dogs now that's 5,000 years old so it's not a modern thing that they've been part of the home but I think that sort of the popularization and the fashion of having dogs in your house definitely was rubber stamped by Queen Victoria who had an amazing array of dogs I mean all sorts of weird and wonderful breeds she had Canadian Eskimo dogs Bedouin dogs Truffle dogs she had the first Pekingese in this country because off her subjects were going and conquering the world and and coming back with trophies I mean you're not conquering it but you know making the and coming back with trophies i mean you're not conquering it

but you know making the empire coming back with trophies and they would bring dogs because they knew she liked her dogs so luti the pekinese was taken from the summer palace in peking looted from there from the imperial family and given that dogs have been part of our lives for such a long time it is extraordinary isn't it that we seem to only be just discovering their true potential in terms of medicine so I was really struck by the chapter in your book about the dogs who can detect cancer the way that we're using dogs to sniff out possibly Alzheimer's as well and there are also those connections that dogs can make with dementia sufferers and people who are on the autistic spectrum yeah so combination of things really um first of all the medical

detection dogs and those are the ones claire guest is amazing she'd be cracking interview for you um but she set up this organization understanding what dogs could smell i mean they've got you know million times more olfactory receptors than we have, and they can sense all sorts of things in us, and they can sort of smell a change in our makeup. And they can be trained to smell specific cancers, or the latest thing that they're investigating at the moment is early signs of Parkinson's and that's a really hard thing to for medicine to detect but separately from that Dogs for Good is a charity I went to visit and spend time with and watch puppies being trained and they are looking at how they can train dogs to help children with

autism and and really help parents because if the parents um sort of give instructions as it were through the dog they can actually create a really effective team as it were between child and dog and make things um more manageable you know can't it's not going to cure anything but it's going to make things more manageable and the other thing is with with people suffering from dementia they're looking into what dogs can do in terms of if an alarm goes off, taking medication to somebody. And I, you know, and I know from my, from my dad, he wouldn't, he'd never shout at the dogs waking him up, let's say, but he'd get pretty cross with any human who tried. So my parents used to, when we were kids, they'd always send the dogs to wake

us up. Simple things, because you have a different response to the dogs, you know, providing something for you or telling you to do something than you would to a person. Why are some breeds better at learning those kind of things than others? Well, to be perfectly frank, some breeds are fabulously intelligent. The poodle in particular, brilliant at and and trainable and instructable the labrador is very food driven and therefore can be very easily taught things and wants to please most dogs actually do want to do a job they're quite keen to learn something learn a skill and the thing i've really learned through this is the difference between exercise and stimulation and how much dogs actually want and

need stimulation as well as exercise so dogs that are scent dogs they want to be sniffing things out and you can play games with them to to do this i went to a brilliant ex-police officer runs a thing called sandy scent school and off i went to worcester cricket ground to see these dogs being trained to detect you know to find things that were hidden in the stands and they're just pets but but they really enjoy doing it and it's made a big difference and enhanced their their lives what's the thickest breed of dog well is it a greyhound no no do you know the greyhound is the oldest domesticated dog well i learned that from your book and the only one mentioned in the King James Bible.

Yeah. And Shakespeare and Chaucer. And actually, I think they are. They're not, you know, they are good at what they're good at. And I don't, you know, Nancy, for example, she knows when she's had enough after about seven and a half minutes. I've had enough now, can I go home? Can I just ask a quick question about, you implied,

perhaps you didn't mean this, but dogs, can they get bored of a particular walk? So if you take your dog day in, day out to your local park or down to the river, whatever it might be, are they actually saying, do you know what, I've done this? No, I think because they sniff different things and different things happen. No, I don't think they get bored of a route and actually they learn a route pretty quickly. Archie definitely knew the route he wanted to go. And they know when they've turned for home as well.

But no, I think it's just different things. Exercise obviously is running about and socialising with other dogs, that's all important. Stimulation is go and fetch and retrieve or find something. Hide things, find them, it's that. So when your dog begs for the ball to be thrown and you feel you've done it 27 times already, are you being really cruel if you just say no more and hide the ball?

Well, at some point you'd probably want to say that's enough. OK. But, you know... This is all hypothetical. You could read a book to them instead. Different kind of intellectual stimulation. Are you thinking about getting a dog, Jenny? I've always been thinking but i mean i've i just got to be completely honest it won't fit it's not fair on any dog at the moment and that's kind of where you are isn't it well exactly and i do think that is a

really responsible decision i think a lot of people think gosh a dog would really make our lives but hang on what are you doing for that dog's life and that's why charities rescue charities like battersea or the dogs trust actually make it incredibly difficult for you to adopt exactly and one of the points i make and one of the things i feel really strongly is anybody who thinks they can click a button today and get a dog delivered tomorrow frankly shouldn't be having one because that is not how it works and if you do that you are fueling an illegal and really responsible market. And you might think you're doing a good thing, but you're not. That is not a great way. Any good breeder or any good rescue centre is going to ask you a hundred questions about where you live, how you live, you know, who's looking after the dog,

how often are you, you know, is it ever being left on its own if so what what are you going to do about that and and often make you wait i mean you can wait a year for for a puppy for example from a good breeder voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Claire Balding is our guest this afternoon. Her latest book is called Isle of Dogs, My Canine Adventure Through Britain. There has been an enormous surge in the number of dog owners, hasn't there, Claire?

Oh, massive. I think from 23% to 34% in the last, what, two, three years. So is that a pandemic thing? thing uh yes to some extent and i think people working from home and realizing they could have a dog but obviously then you know a year and a half later um no longer working from home or two years later so the challenges that come with that are fairly obvious and as a not surprising knock on there are more dogs in dog rescue centers than ever before and they are overrun all of them yeah so that's really sad, isn't it? And I think also there's a, you know, certain breeds bring with them certain challenges. You know, you'll suddenly get a spike in popularity.

The Siberian Husky became very popular because of Game of Thrones. Now, a Siberian Husky needs a hell of a lot of exercise. People can't be that daft to get a huge, really? There are loads of them especially in london parks and they're a pack animal aren't they apart from anything else yeah yeah they don't want to be on their own no they don't want to be on their own they need to be running running running and preferably pulling so you you just need to under daxons which i they're cracking dogs they're

really great but they are a hound they will go off after things they will disappear and there are various veterinary issues that come as a sort of a bit of a red flag with some breeds and responsible breeders will always be trying to breed the best example to the best example and therefore improve the breed. Greeders as I refer to in the book aren't bothered with that because they just are after the money yeah what i found to be uh extraordinary when we were hunting around for a dog was just the way that dogs are advertised on social media platforms and in these strange kind of whatsapp groups and strange websites and there were a couple of dogs that we saw on ebay you know there's all kinds of irresponsible

offering going on and this does culminate in what might be an urban myth but my daughter found this story being retold on a social media platform about a woman who had bought a small pomeranian via i think one of the larger social media places in a group. And she had paid quite a lot of money for the Pomeranian puppy. And it was becoming increasingly aggressive and very, very difficult to train. So she took it to the vet. And the vet said, well, the problem is it's not a Pomeranian puppy. It's a fox.

No way. And it was a small fox that was being sold as a Pomeranian puppy on a dog-selling group. No! Yes, on the Book of Face, yes. Wow! I know, and I know. Gosh, I mean, it takes a lot to tell Claire a story about a dog.

You've silenced her! I'd heard, and I think this is true, I'd heard that foxes were gradually domesticating themselves, so taking food out of people's hands and becoming more and more... Well, I think someone had literally just seen an opportunity to make shedloads of money out of really uninformed people because a fox cub does look like a Pomeranian. You know, they're tiny little creatures and it sold it to somebody.

And it was a fox, I know, daft. So Alice Arnold is in the studio with us now. She's two for the price of one. It's Bog Off Monday, isn't it? How are you? Very well, daft. So Alice Arnold is in the studio with us now. She's two for the price of one. It's bog-off Monday, isn't it? How are you? Very well, thank you. We really wanted you to come in for the last, well, it's six minutes of the interview.

We thought maybe the last three minutes of the interview because actually you've written the last bit of the book. Yes, it's awfully good. Do we need to say who Alice is? So Alice is Claire's wife, partner, wife. Yes. Whichever. Mrs. Claire. Mrs. Claire. Oh, you're more than that, Alice.

Did I say that quickly enough? Yes. And actually, it is quite a moving chapter in the book, as Claire has already alluded to. She does portray you as being the slightly kind of recalcitrant one out of the two of you, in terms of getting a dog and, you know, providing a terms of getting a dog and you know providing a

new home for a dog and when that's going to happen and all of that so tell us where you are now in your uh embracing of dog ownership oh no i've always embraced the dog ownership thing it's just that since we've had the kittens and the cats which i write about um and we don't let them out because we live on quite a busy road we then then thought, in order to have another dog, we need to move house. That's not a small thing. But we have... We're in the process of.

So we have found a property, but it won't be right for us for quite a while. And when it is right for us and we've built it, then we'll get the dog. So I'm not reluctant about getting the dog, but we're basically building a house in order to get a dog. And I'll be in charge of that because Claire hasn't got time. No, I will have time.

Right. And can I ask you about losing Archie? Yes, I'm sorry. I am going to. Do you know what? I think pet grief is... People don't give it the right kind of place in the world, actually, I think. I mean, it's really, really hard when a very loved dog, cat, family pet dies.

I've just been reading Kate Botley's book, actually, and she talks about that because she talks about grief a lot. And then the place that she was about to lose her dog. grief a lot but and then the place of that she was about to lose her dog and actually the hardest thing I found about it was that the um the planning of it that you know when it's going to happen if it's an old animal you know you're going to have it put to sleep I found that unbearable because I want things to die naturally and I know it's the kindest thing to do. I know it is. But we couldn't get the vet that Archie loved. He adored going to the vet. I know not many dogs do, but Archie did, and he loved the vet, Bessie.

And so it had to be her, and she couldn't do it till the Monday, and Claire, I made Claire make the phone call, so she did that on the Thursday. So we had three full days of going right he's got six more meals he's got five more meals and that was unbearable and we kept crying and he didn't know why we were crying

that was truly awful that was sort of three of the worst days of my life because you knew it was happening and I couldn't bear that but it was the right time I knew we were doing the right thing. It was just those days were terrible. So do both of you now have in your mind's eye

the kind of image of what a new dog might look like? Well, it's sort of not. The breed specifics are that it mustn't shed hair. And that's for Alice's, you know, needs because she has asthma and allergic reaction to dog hair. So that limits it in terms of breed type. But but I, you know, I'm massively in touch with the Dogs Trust now. So I get constant communication from them on what may or may not be. And we are a couple of years off this happening

because it can't happen until we're settled and ready. But you quite liked Toast, didn't you? I did like Toast. And he's a Norfolk terrier. I think that just the character of the dog is so much more important than what it looks like, really, as long as it doesn't shed. But it just needs to be.

I quite like a miniature Schnauzer, though, because character-wise they're wonderfully wise and yet grumpy and how small is a miniature schnauzer about the same size as tibetan terrier actually they're pretty sturdy might not narrow it down for some people okay uh sort of cocker spaniel size medium size you can pick them up but but equally they can go on a decent walk do you think there's a big difference between people who like big dogs and people who like small dogs i don't know i'm not sure i've considered that um i think having space is an important thing i think as people that probably are going to have the dog sleeping on our bed yeah a really big dog is probably not the thing although i did speak to somebody just the

other day who's um newfoundland sleeps on the bed that's a big dog that's a big bed I wouldn't get any sleep at all if they had a thing like that on the bed I do love the point that you make at the beginning of the book and at the end of the book just about the difference between going for a walk with a dog and without a dog

and I don't think you can go for a walk without a dog well as the presenter for a long running walking programme on Radio 4 obviously I do think you can go for a walk without a dog. Well, as the presenter of a long-running walking programme on Radio 4, obviously I do think you can go for a walk without a dog, but just generally out of the front door, I do, you know, I have to really make myself go now. I don't. Unless I'm going with a friend who's got dogs.

Then I'll do it. But I don't go on my own for a walk. Why would you? Yeah, I agree. I don't, I know. I don't see the point. Isle of Dogs is out now and it is a stonking Christmas present, isn't it?

Just works. Yes, it's lovely. It's a lovely book about, well, it's also, I think perhaps more revealing about her than she realises, do you think? I don't know, in what way? Well, just when she talks at the very, very beginning about how close she was to her family pet.

I don't know. I think perhaps we all, I had a dog growing up, but I don't remember thinking I was a dog. No, but I think Claire's family life was dominated by the animals. That was her first book, wasn't it? Which was a very, very clever turnaround of Gerald Durrell's My Family and Other Animals. So it was My Animals and Other Family. Yeah, very clever. And I remember one of her great stories is about,

I think they had a tiny pony that was gifted to them by the Queen Mother, who kind of lived in the kitchen. I mean, it's true. I just did a burp there. I think that's mainly because the Queen Mother never gave us anything and I was always just a little bit upset. So I've done a special commemorative burp for the Queen Mother. God rest her soul.

So look, do you know what we sound like? We've drunk that wine. We do. It's got a little bit odd. The Queen Mother on a good day would be several gin and Quantros down by now. What was her bevy that she used to have? It was a Dubonnet. A Dubonnet and? Was it a Dubonnet and gin? Gin and Dubon down by now. What was her bevy that she used to have? It was a Dubonnet. A Dubonnet and?

And was it a Dubonnet and gin? Gin and Dubonnet, I think it was. Which is just as like... And that was before lunch. That was like a stiffener before lunch. That's rocket fuel. Do you know what? That's the kind of drink that when you first, you know,

gain access to some kind of a drinks cabinet or trolley anywhere in somebody else's house or your parents' house. You make yourself a Dubonnet gin and about half an hour later you're sick. A cat-handed cocktail, yeah. It's not caught on, has it, as a drink? No, it hasn't, but it didn't do her any harm. She was 190 when she died. Oh, she was 101, wasn't she? I think she was 101, 102.

You're our royal correspondent. I do my best i really do which is really why i do deserve a small pony and if they're listening please send one i'll provide my address right dear jane this is from nicole listening to the other day talking about bagels i've just never understood the allure of them they're too doughy and dense also when you compare them to a croissant or a roll you don't get as much for your money because of the hole in the middle. What is the appeal? OK, I just, I can't begin to describe the pleasure I get from bagels.

I take your point about the hole. I would say they're quite moderately priced. They're 45 pence each at my local Sainsbury's. I don't think that's a lot of money for the amount of pleasure they provide. And actually, they take ages to eat. What has gone on over the last week? Bizarrely, they wouldn't be as good if they didn't have a hole in the middle.

Right, I feel... Some physicist will be able to explain that. I feel underprepared to try and either join in this conversation or cut it short, listener, but don't worry. I'll get my oomph back by tomorrow and all will be well in the world. It's just worth saying the clocks have gone back. I hate that expression.

I still don't know why we do it. It does mean it's very dark and gloomy here. I hope it's better where you are right now. We're heading into what may be a challenging winter. Yes, I'm sure it will be, but I really like the clocks changing. I like Roman and the Glowman very much. Because apart from anything else, it means I can have a very

misty morning swim. Oh God, I can't believe you're still doing that. How cold is it at the moment? But it's not because it's a heated pool. It's a heated Lido. I'm not in the reservoir anymore. Somebody, actually, can I just say a huge thank you to Lynn on Twitter, who sent me just the most fantastic piss take of cold water swimmers.

I'll dig it out, actually, and I'll read it to you because you'll laugh. It's a cartoon of a journalist writing a piece about going cold water swimming. And I want to do it justice, actually. So, Lynn, I'll save that for tomorrow because it was spot on. And yet still I do it. Well, yes, but you know yourself and that's one of the most darling things about you. But also I should say it's been three or four weeks now

since The Times last did a feature on cold water swimming. So it must be time to do another one along with that. How to beat the midlife, whatever it might be. How to stay fit in middle age. Welcome Peter B. I love her pieces. I always read them. Oh, I see.

Do I? That's a secret. Right. Have a mildly good evening. I'm off to eat some nuts and some oily fish, Jane, and do some squats and have a kip. Just an egg white omelette for me. Bye. You did it.

Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man, it's Henry Tribe.

Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at three o'clock Monday until Thursday every week. And you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day, Monday until Thursday every week and you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects.

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