Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Destined to talk sh*t for a living (with Oliver Jeffers)

Episode Date: October 9, 2024

Jane G's been to the theatre and she's fiiiinally found someone cultured enough to talk to about it! Jane and Jane also discuss extortionate duvets, prop microphones and hot pants. Plus, Jane G speaks to children's illustrator and writer Oliver Jeffer's about his new book 'Where To Hide A Star'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Go for it. YOLO. We are completely YOLO plus on this podcast, as I think whatever that means. What does YOLO mean? You only live once. That's it. Yeah. And actually, I think once will be enough for me.

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Follow us now wherever you get your podcasts. Right, welcome to Malcarens and Garvey, day three. Day three. Day three and last day, for now. Only for now. For now. Only for now. I come with shocking news. What? I don't want to really, really set the tone, but Prue Leith has revealed she doesn't make her own pastry.

Oh, this, yes. Following on from what we were saying yesterday about her grandmother's pastry, I felt that this story spoke to me and to millions of others. She's revealed at Cheltenham, she doesn't make her own custard, doesn't make her own pastry. She's too old to care. I'm shook. I'm not going to believe in anything anymore. If Prulese doesn't make her own pastry, what is the world? What's the matter Eve? Didn't she say that last year? What did Mary Berry already say that? Look, it doesn't matter, this is news.

Eve's back with us. Isn't she? Just bringing down my points. Thanks Eve. Really helpful. Are you feeling better Eve? There is, I'm kind of with Eve in a way, I want to back her up here because there is a sort of, news is cyclical and so every now and again you are going to get somebody in

the public eye saying something a teeny bit controversial, Jane. And I guess this is another example. And sometimes they have indeed said it before, but then, you know, some of my... Shall I just get my coat? No, some of my best anecdotes are, I mean, let's be honest, endlessly recycled. But aren't we good at always showing surprise and laughing when you tell them, Jane? Up to a point. But about that night I sat next... no, no, no, we can't go there anymore. I've been there a few times. Look, there's nothing wrong.

If you've got a really well-worn opinion that always gets a reaction, why not give it a regular outing? Absolutely. So I don't blame Pruleth. But like you, I'm angry and a bit ashamed on behalf of Britain's culinary community. I mean, how many of us will resort to shop-bought pastry. I don't watch Bake Off, but I know that millions do, and I just think how has she got a right

now to talk about soggy bottoms? Oh, she has got every right. Okay, fine. I like a bit of Prue Leith, I like a bit of Mary Berry, but actually I'm a bit, perhaps a bit like you, I have watched Bake Off the past It's it's not really for me. I've sort of feel I've seen cakes now Being made in a tent. I don't I don't really want to see it anymore. I was at the theatre again last night What did you see Jane? Thank you, because you're taking you're more cultural because Fiyu is just very rude about theatre.

She's a swimmer. Yeah, she likes films and stuff and she loves music but she's not into theatre. And I do go relatively regularly because I just think I'm a middle-aged old bird. I should. Because if I'm not keeping theatre going, what's going to happen to it? Plus, you can see some amazing stuff. And last night was a play, a short play. They're my favourites.

They're my favourites. Called Brace Brace. Oh yeah. And it was about a couple on their honeymoon having, I won't spoil it because I think it would be good for people to go and see it, it's at the Royal Court in London's. I like the Royal Court. Swanky Sloane Square where they have a nice little caf bar area with plenty of space. They also do put on slightly more, I want to say cutting edge theatre. Yeah, well this

was a newer play. The small one. small little theatre space upstairs and it's almost impossible to believe but they do make you think that you could be in the claustrophobic atmosphere of a plane when an incident occurs to a young couple on honeymoon and I'll just say that they're both impacted in different ways and their lives are not going to be the same again after this. So if you don't like flying, I would have bought for you. Did you take your own sick bag and some small bag of peanuts? I'm not that keen on flying but I'm not.

Neck pillow? Oh my god. I do laugh at people who take a neck pillow on a two hour flight to somewhere in France. You don't need it then, do you? No, you really don't. No, I mean I've never really flown long haul but I imagine then you can justify a neck pillow. I used to have a neck pillow, a really good one, it was almost like a brace, like a very soft brace for your neck because I used to fly a lot of red eyes overnight. Exactly. Yeah. And I did get good at sleeping in a flying chair essentially but you do need a neck pillow and an eye mask and some earplugs.

Possibly some Valium. I was going to say, were you one of those people who, I've got friends who fly long haul regularly, it's very important business reasons, and they will take something, so they sleep for at least seven or eight hours. Yeah, I think it's fine if you've got a flight that is more than eight hours. I used to do a lot of five, six hours sort of from the west coast to the east coast or from New York to London and actually it's not really long enough and when you wake up you do feel a bit groggy. So I sort of stopped doing that, just had seven glasses of red wine instead, it's absolutely fine. The Mulcairons method, actually that reminds me

about Florida. So I don't know if we have listeners in Florida, we probably have some. So thoughts and prayers, hope you're all right. It does look, I mean they couldn't have been clearer in their messaging, could they? Basically, get out. Get out. Worse for a century. And Florida gets battered often, so that is a big old storm coming in. Yeah, no, it certainly sounds like it.

Yeah, absolutely. Jane and Fee at times.radio, if you have an experience you could share about... You know when you see the images of the cars just snaking back for miles of people trying to get out and you just think about people who are trying to help the elderly, people with small kids, women who are pregnant. It must just be so stressful. I know there are all kinds of terrible things happening all over the world right now, with people trying to get away and get out. But it's not an experience most of us have ever had.

No, I was in New York for Hurricane Sandy. That's sort of the only experience I've had of that. And that was severe. Fortunately, I was in quite a high part of the city. I lived in Brooklyn Heights, so it was quite high and we weren't threatened by the water. But the next day the cars were just upturned in strange places in the street and everything had been enormous flood damage. And the amount of sand that it threw up in places like the Rockaways was bonkers.

Sand from? From the ocean because the ocean came in and then receded. Yeah, I mean they had, it was strange. It was very odd, it was an odd experience, not one that we're used to here, having big weather like that. No, we're not, the British talk about almost nothing else but weather but we only really get a light drizzle touch, touch MDF. We get relatively small weather. Hey, that could change. Absolutely. And now we had that very thoughtful and moving email yesterday from Chloe whose dad had died far far too early and I want to say to you Chloe I hope you found what we said a little bit

helpful. I know that you did hear it at least so and thank you very much for contacting us to say that you had. This is from Amanda who says, my heart went out to Chloe as you spoke of everything that you'd gone through as it felt so similar to our own experience. We're now two and a half years down the line and trust me that initial devastation eases a little and you learn to grow around your grief. Your mum will take huge comfort from the fact that you carry your dad within you, quite literally, and you'll find with time that you and your siblings will channel different bits of him when needed. You will all gain comfort and humor at times from that. It sounds like the mad hoovering is incredibly positive. I wish one of mine had taken that path,

she says. You need to enjoy all the adventures you had planned and make new memories with your mum. Keep talking about your dad when others start to inevitably back off a little. Choose a special place that you enjoyed as a family where you can make some kind of memorial, formal or informal. Get loads of photos developed that have been on your phones and stick them up in bright spaces in your homes. Never say no to a home-cooked meal or a cake. We were overwhelmed with flowers, obviously kindly meant, but in the end I couldn't bear to have them in the house. I had a really wise friend who would rock up every day to my door for a week and she would quietly take

the flowers away to be appreciated by others. And I do think that's from Amanda. Amanda, thank you so much for that. And that's a good practical bit of advice. Because flowers are lovely, too many flowers, overwhelming and a bit of a nuisance. So that's a great tip. Yeah, I love that. And people do appreciate flowers because they're expensive.

Oh, they are expensive. Yeah, sharing the love and the flowers. Good morning,. Oh they are expensive, yeah. Sharing the love and the flowers. Yeah. Good morning says Barnes, good morning Barnes. A couple of points she'd like to make from recent episodes. Number one duvets. Barnes said I too checked out the 10k John Lewis product as I couldn't believe my ears when Standin Jane referenced it. Incredible Icelandic eiderdown. I assume each feather is hand plucked says Bonds. I thought the heading of one review by Surrey Boy of Virginia Water was priceless. Real quality for my little boy Athelstan. Athelstan. Athelstan. Athelstan.

Was one of the great Saxon monarchs. Is that right? I have absolutely no idea. It's not a common name. Apple Stan of Virginia Water. Anyway, Bon says, I love that. Even with my family and friends discount card, the cost would be £8,000 or £333 per month. As a really poor sleeper, I considered it for a whole three seconds whether this was the product that would revolutionise my nocturnal challenges, but decided to stick with my twice weekly sleeping tablets as a more financially prudent option. It's true, not sure how many 10k duvets John Lewis actually sells.

Her second point I just want to quickly mention too, non-listening men. When I first met my husband I very quickly deduced that he was probably the worst listener in the world. With me being in HR with a raft of soft skill qualifications to my name, I decided if this relationship was going anywhere he needed to be pointed in the right direction. I provided him with very explicit guidance as to how the new world needed to be. So on his second visit to my house, I produced the egg timer and explained that we would use it to recalibrate our conversations. This is how it works. You speak for two minutes, I speak for two minutes. He's a bright chap, picked up this new way of doing things very quickly.

Barnes says he had no idea he was such a poor listener as he's never been told. And he has over the years made huge progress and is now always keen to report back to me upon meeting new people that he listened to them and asked them questions about themselves and he provides me with a summary of all that he found out. I appreciate not all men, or indeed women, would have responded as well to the egg timer moment. Especially as this was the same evening, I presented him with a cod casserole,

and having dropped the glass dish when I took it out of the oven, I proceeded to scoop up the bit sans glass to count into another dish and advise him to pick out the glass I missed. All of this was 30 years ago, we're still together with his listening skills, having improved more than my culinary skills. Thank you, Barnes. I like the idea of an egg timer.

I've got some prop microphones in my flat which do come out sometimes if you feel like people need to take it in turns to speak. So if you've got a function and somebody is inclined to dominate? Or even not a function, just some time. Just a function, just a time. Just somebody in. The prop microphones have been used to differentiate when it's one's time to speak. I think that's really... To take the floor. Yeah. Shout out to my best friend Gemma who has made sure that wherever I live I always have prop microphones in my cupboards.

I'm gonna do that I just going to write that down. They're really good. They're also really fun if you have had a party and people are doing some fake karaoke, performing in your lounge, everyone can have a microphone. Yeah, I would just like to shout out for the prop microphones of the world, who make everything better. I love a microphone, I've loved them since I first had one as a child, because I used to make radio on my tape recorder, yeah, talking to a microphone.

It was always destiny that I was going to talk shit for a living. I might need to buy you some front microphones for your house. See if you can. Right, we have been talking about women and their role in amateur cricket, particularly making the tees. And this is from one of our, I'm going to say, upmarket listeners. Listening to your listeners experience with cricket tees and the role of women, it reminded me of my experience of shoots.

Oh, have you ever been on a shoot? Hell no. No. When one of my offspring went to university, they were very puzzled by somebody they met saying they were going off shooting for a weekend because they thought they were going to make a film. And they weren't. No. They were going to kill a stag. Or something.

Or something. Our correspondent writes, Even as the landowner alongside my then husband, the expectation was that as a woman I would not be a gun, merely a beater, or if really lucky lucky compete with the other wives to host the lunch. My response was to refuse to participate at all and to insist that my teenage daughter was allowed to work the gun dog and learn to shoot if she chose.

I would like to say that all those attitudes are now gone but sadly they're not. I also add that I neither approve of blood support at all nor remain married to the man who was irritated and embarrassed by my stance. Okay well look you don't have to listen we've all made we've all made choices in our lives anonymous and um not all of them bear the test of time but that's yes that's interesting I don't have any personal experience of a shoot. No, I mean, what as we discussed yesterday is, um, formerly awkward vegetarian. Yeah. Um, obviously I was opposed to blood sports, you know, I mean, as well as everything else. Um, but then when the Labour government banned fox hunting, it sort of made me want to go

fox hunting just again to be awkward. Just by banning it, it made me sort of want to have a try. I do know what you mean, actually, because I'm a member of a kind of awkward squad in my head that does make me quite deliberately take a contradictory view from time to time. It can be quite useful in my role, but sometimes I do it in my personal life as well a bit like and I get it from my dad, I'm really aware of this, because he will just deliberately sabotage... I don't know, just think...

I mean, for example, I always remember on the day of Princess Diana's funeral, he spent the whole day in the garage. He did not watch anything or listen to anything. I mean, I was actually there. I love your dad. But yes, no, he's got many strengths, but he will deliberately take an alternative view.

I'm going to say, just to be a little bit irritating. He won't be listening, so we're okay. Again, taking the alternative view. But I know, yes, exactly, but I know I've got that in me too. So it's just about self-awareness. Speaking of parents, oh yeah, go on. This is from Emma in Adelaide. Dear Jane and Jane and Fee,

your comments about elderly parents still watching their weight shouted out to me. I am not alone. My 91 year old father and 84 year old mother provide healthy brackets no butter crackers and a bit of cheese for lunch when invited. And yes, that horrid watery low fat milk. They talk about their weight and continually try and eat less. We grew up with them making comments like you don't look good in that and wear what shows off your figure. And my favourite, don't let yourself go. My mother gave my sister a set of scales one year for her birthday.

Good Lord. I've got the right young age of 60. I'm growing my hair long, keeping it grey and loving letting myself go. I wear floaty waistless dresses and swim in a bikini. As my gorgeous young daughters say, YOLO mom. I have to say, I do think it might be a generational thing. My parents, who also won't be listening, are increasingly sizist and make comments about their friends who've, oh, he's put on a lot of weight. Can men let themselves go as well as women?

Oh yeah. Oh they can, okay. I think it used to be just women let themselves go. Oh no, men can. I don't know if they let themselves go, but they just put on a bit of weight. I mean can men let themselves go? Oh yeah. Oh they can. Okay I think it used to be just women. Oh no men can. I don't know if they let themselves go but they just put on a bit of weight or got a bit of a tummy on him. Yeah. Things like that. Is it because and I was thinking about this yesterday because there was a news story I was at the day before about boomers living longer but living less well. Yes. Yeah. And is it because I'm a boomer just I think you have to be born in 64 and I was so I am still a boomer and I'm not... Boomer cusp. I'm not even boomer cusp, I've just got to own it. Okay. I'm a boomer. So that means

I'm prone to this long life but an unhealthy long life unless I watch myself. So I've just, yes, you watch yourself. I've just used a term that probably the next generation above me would understand. Is it because of rationing? So I think you've got a generation of people still around in their 80s and 90s. Food rationing didn't stop, I don't think until the late 1940s. Yeah. We check on this.

Do you mind having a check on that Eve? When did food rationing stop in the UK? But I think it was still going until the late 40s. So that will have meant, I mean my mum does always say you didn't, they went no, you just didn't have people who were overweight. Wow, 1954. 1954, right thank you Eve. Just shows you doesn't it? And so people ate what they were able to. I know there was all kinds of dodgy business going on and I know my grandad was in a black market pig club. But it is interesting, the sort of idea of body positivity is so lost on them. They just

think, nope, no, absolutely, you shouldn't be wearing those hot pants. It's just, it's amazing, it's just completely lost on them. I'm not wearing hot pants today. But I do, my parents also, they're not constantly trying to lose weight, but my brother and his partner were away with my parents not that long ago and they said, they never eat lunch! My brother's partner was outraged because my parents won't stop doing things and eat lunch. It's like, no sorry, we need to eat three meals. We eat three meals. If my parents have a late breakfast, they won't have any lunch.

Or they'll have a bit of cake in the afternoon. It's just not good enough. There was some stuff around this week saying the king, Charles III, has just started eating lunch. Oh yeah, he famously didn't eat lunch. Right, why not? Busy. If I had access to some of the best food in Britain,

damn well, I'd be eating lunch. Yeah. And afternoon tea and my dinner. He does take his own butler with him to make his own martinis wherever he goes though. So resources put in other directions. Okay, thank you. Thank you for balancing that out, Jane. Much appreciated. We won't mention the name of this emailer but she says, I have often wondered if there was a podcast that discussed the ups and downs of being a parent of a disabled child.

Well, after listening, and by the way, I don't think there is, but there must be or should be, if any of that makes sense. So I could be wrong, by the way, when I say that there isn't one. I'm sure there are charities who are doing something of this nature. But anyway, I don't have personal lived experience and our correspondent here does. So she says, after listening to the email you had from the parent telling you about her son's 18th birthday, I realised it's not a subject that could be talked about or rather listened to for very long. However, it was encouraging to hear somebody else dealing with similar issues to our own.

I really appreciate hearing about this subject occasionally. It does make me feel less alone and more comfortable thinking about planning for our boys' future. My favourite place to listen to you is sitting on the porch of our wee hut looking down on the Firth of Clyde. Sometimes I see the submarines coming and going. Gosh, I can't ... these are the Britain's nuclear submarines, we should say. We were invited to a drinks party on one of the nuclear bomber's submarines. Top tip, wear trousers as you have to go up

and down a lot of ladders. I was given a tour, which is certainly interesting, but I was really pleased to come back out. I don't know how they manage for six months. Thank you for that email and I do take your point that if you're in that situation you are glad that other people are with you and are living through it but possibly you don't want to hear about it exclusively for hours on end. Don't know because I'm not there but thank you for that I think that's a point of view definitely worth bearing in mind. A friend of mine is working on a podcast about caring. Right. Her mum has Alzheimer's and yeah she thinks there wasn't a podcast about caring. Well that's brilliant. Yeah.

So I will be plugging that when it's ready for good to listen to. Dear Jane and Jane, this is from Leo in LA. In today's podcast you said that as detectives you'd probably cause more problems than you solve. Yep. What a wonderful concept for a series of novels or TV programmes, says Leo, dealing with the aftermath of a detective trying to solve the crime. Please stride confidently into a commissioner's office and walk out with a very large check to make this happen. Leo, have you got connections in the entertainment world? You're in LA. Yeah, write it. Come on, yeah. Can you back channel, send us some contacts or possibly an offer to help us script this?

We have had a lot of emails from the States the last couple of days, including stuff about the election and how people are feeling about it. Absolutely. Have you seen the email about the coffee cups? Yeah, I did. I've got that here somewhere. Yeah, it's from Anna, normally from Bristol. Says, I'm currently in the US and I've attached some election-related photos from my time in New York, Long Island and Virginia, which might interest you. But what is worrying is that she says, I think it was a shop, wasn't it, they post the number of coffee

cups that have been bought during the course of a day. Yeah. And the bad news, if you're a little concerned, is that on one particular day the Trump cups were outselling Kamala Harris because a group, and this is the disturbing bit in Anna's view and frankly in mine, because a large group of young women had bought the Trump coffee cups. Terrifying, says Anna. Well, look, I mean, we know a lot of women support him or choose to support him. They did in 2016 when they could have voted for a woman. And that will never cease to amaze, but there you go.

That is what we call a lived reality. There is speculation that the women who voted for him in 2016 possibly won't vote for him in 2024 because of the rolling back of Roe v. Wade and because of everything that's happened in the last eight years. It's going to be much harder for him to capture that sort of centre, middle, female vote than he did before. Right. Which is very important for him in order of numbers. But as we know, don't believe the polls. I find it very difficult to believe the polls in America, just having been, you know, shown that they are very inaccurate several times over. I don't know whether to be reassured by that or not. I did see Kamala Harris, I tried to

watch CNN this morning, I'm trying to watch it because I think it might help inform me for the weeks ahead. I find it a bit dull, I've got to be honest. Do you ever watch CNN? No. Right. Do you listen to American radio sometimes? I do, of course, it's another option. I listen to NPR, their national public radio sometimes. Right, okay, maybe I should do that because they did have a quick glimpse of Kamala Harris

on Stephen Colbert drinking a lager. She had to have a beer. And I think she chose a beer that was appropriate to one of the swing states. I mean, look, she has to think. All about branding. She has to think. Think again. But it is interesting isn't it that so many women went for Trump when they could have gone for a female alternative but I just wondered people just didn't like Hillary Clinton. Well actually this is related to the email I've got here in my hand. There was such a level of antipathy towards Hillary Clinton which I never understood before I lived there during the 2016 election. And I think it's really hard for us to understand

because we don't have the same history with the Clintons that Americans do. He's quite, he's not great, is he, or Bill? Well, ironically, a lot of people who didn't vote for Hillary would have voted for Bill again. I really don't get it. Okay, so mainly it's, there's lots of reasons people dislike him. They accuse them of corruption and, you know, sort of employing all their friends and things in Bill's Clinton administration. But the reason that people found Hillary difficult to support

was because when Bill took over, she sort of said, oh, you get two for the price of one. So instead of doing the usual first lady kind of soft power moves of you know children's nutrition or addiction or all those things that first ladies are supposed to do occupying the East Wing. She turned the East Wing into another branch of the administration and she basically took over health and social care and tried to make enormous political reforms. So basically she was working as part of the Clinton administration instead of just doing her lady work over there. And people found

it an overreach because they hadn't voted for her. And that has led to a kind of really entrenched dislike of Hillary Clinton, as seen as grabby, you know, bossy, taking too much, massive overreach. Also a huge amount of that is obviously just pure misogyny. Which women can express as well. Which women can express as well, but I didn't know any of that because I'd never lived there during that administration and so it took quite a long time for me to understand where this dislike was coming from, but a lot of it is historical about that time. That reminds me that I talked to Fred Trump last night and we're putting that out next week.

I think it's going out on Tuesday, isn't it? On the radio and in off air next Tuesday. And Fred is the son of another Fred Trump, who was Donald Trump's older brother. So I think there were quite a few five kids in the family. The eldest child was a daughter who became a judge, Mary Anne, then there was Fred. Donald I think was the fourth of the five children, something like that, need to get that right. Anyway, Fred Trump, the nephew of Donald, is not a fan. We've got an interview with Mary Trump as well coming up in the paper soon, also not a fan. But can I just say one last thing about Hillary Clinton, the other thing as well is that in the modern

game of politics where it's very soundbitey, very touchy-feely, the Obamas were very good at that, Trump's very good at going into an emotion, it's all about feelings rather than sort of concepts and thoughts. Whereas Hillary Clinton, I mean she cannot boil anything down to a soundbite, she will not use five words when 355 will do. And that just didn't serve her well in the 2016 election. She wanted to really explain points, whereas people just wanted slogans, unfortunately. Well, that's just humane.

Sorry, depressing. Anyway, so Carol just writes, I'll just say quickly the email that I was referring to about 110 minutes ago, sorry. She says that she's lived in New York for almost 40 years, was born in the UK, raised here as well as in Canada, but moved to the US when she got married at the age of 30. Her husband now ex and she leaned right in the 1980s but became disenchanted with the Republican Party in the 1990s. Disliked the Clinton administration and in the early 2000s

cringed at the automatic knee-jerk response of friends and acquaintances on the left at the mention of George Bush's junior's name. But by 2016 I wholly supported Hillary Clinton and remember waking up on Wednesday November 9th 2016 and seeing the New York Times headline Trump triumphs. Since then we've seen the end of civil public discourse and a gradual disregard for tolerance, patience and acceptance. The idea of his winning this election in a month truly makes me nauseated. Carol says I fear for my safety, the safety of my daughter who is gay, the security of my career as a public school teacher, since Trump says he wants to do away with public school education. Yet months of fear have

gradually led to cynicism. I will be voting for Kamala Harris and I joined a campaign in which I wrote 60 postcards to residents in North Carolina urging them to go to early voting or at least make sure they are registered to vote. This was my part in working towards a fair election. If Trump does prevail, my attitude is so be it. This country will get the president it deserves. Let him win and let the country descend into hatred fascism and chaos which I truly believe it will I mean she says at the hands of a narcissistic misogynist mentally unstable demonic clown this is how many people currently feel in the United States it's very depressing but I mean your email is I think spot-on and

really does express the feelings of a lot of people on the left Carol absolutely well I just read one more from Elizabeth who says I'm in Tennessee email is I think spot on and really does express the feelings of a lot of people on the left Carol. Absolutely. Well I'll just read one more from Elizabeth who says, I'm in Tennessee at the moment studying with my husband, we're both studying and working at the University of Tennessee, it's a Republican state, we're staunch Democrats, there's a bleak future ahead if Trump is re-elected and no place for a young woman to live and work. She has a daughter, I should say, our correspondent Elizabeth. My husband and I are even debating spending much more time in the UK and Europe if Trump returns.

Thank goodness we're going to be seeing our daughter in Melbourne when the election takes place as we do fear violence and disruption. It's very scary. It might not be, like, Are we being too gloomy? I don't think so. I don't think so. Expect the worst? Maybe? Let's return to... And hope for the best? Yeah, exactly. Let's return briefly to recovered meat.

Dear Jane and P... Safe for ground. And alternate Jane, just listened to your recent podcast and had a giggle when you mentioned the Australian delicacy of a Devon sandwich. It's not only a school lunch memory for me as I still enjoy a Devon and sweet pickle sandwich on squishy white bread, but the original name for Devon was German sausage. However, this was not considered politically correct during the First World War, so the name was changed to Devon, which is of course English, and made everybody feel a lot

better about eating recovered meat. This is from Janice. Janice take care of yourself and thank you very much for that. I know we're running out of time but I will just say Anne Nock also emailed in about Devon and said it's very sad that the lovely place of Devon has been aligned with this atrocity. She does say this reconstituted lunch meat is buried around for decades. It's sad that the lovely place of Devon has been aligned with this atrocity. That's what Devon really does deserve. But she does say this for constituted lunch, she meets Barrymore around for decades. It was once called Fritz, but to anglicise it someone decided to counter the German origins with a definitively British rebound, hence Devon. Anne says I do humbly apologise to the good people of Devon UK.

I think in honour of a previous correspondent on this podcast it should be renamed again Virginia Water because that is the most. I went through Virginia Water in my teens on the way to a university interview which was unsuccessful. But coming from the North I honestly had never seen a place like it in my life. It was so posh. Yeah it is posh. Yeah really no wonder they've got ten Grand Duvets down there. Now to our big guest today, who's the fantastic children's author and illustrator, Oliver Jeffers. He, according to his website, makes art and tells stories. The Times has referred to him as the bono of children's literature.

He has sold millions of books. Billie Eilish chose to read one of his books for her appearance on CBB's Bedtime Story. Twenty years on from the publishing of his first bestseller, How to Catch a Star, he is reuniting the cast of characters for a new book called Where to Hide a Star, which is truly beautiful, genuinely touching, and out tomorrow. Oliver Jeffers, good afternoon to you and tell us about your new book. It is a sequel, is it, to How to Catch a Star? How would you describe it? Hello, well, thanks for having me on. It's a sort of a sequel. There's several books that are in that series. How to Catch

a Star is 20 years old and it was followed by Lost and Found that had the introduction of a penguin character that people love. I think most people love that penguin because it doesn't actually do anything. He just allows everybody to just kind of project onto him whatever they want. So there is a secret of storytelling. And then there's a few other characters that have shown up through the years. And so this book is, it's a bit of a reunion of all of those characters that I haven't really visited in about 15 years and the inclusion of a new one and again they're dealing with the location of a star. Yes and can I say it's got a very satisfactory ending. It does. Yeah, I'm not going to go any further than that but the ending is touching and lovely and I can imagine I don't have grandchildren, but maybe who knows one day I can imagine spending time with a small person

In a very cozy way just involving ourselves in this in this story Is that always at the back of your mind when when you write it? Not always no some of the books that make, I have just tried to entertain myself. Some of them are very much in that classic nature of storytelling like this one. But over the last couple of years, I think as I've been introducing my own children to the world and the state of the world,

the books tended to get a little more philosophical and humanitarian. And this is the first return really to just classic storytelling in that way. And you know, the relationship a reader has with a book is a very interesting one. It's this sort of private collaboration, but with a picture book like this, it's slightly different. Again, it's a triangle relationship between normally a parent, a child, and the object of the book. And it's a very important, it's a beautiful little relationship

that ends up becoming the emotional fabric of many families. Yeah. You're somebody who as a child, I don't think you were terribly good at school or you weren't regarded as being academic. Is that fair? No, that's very fair. Yes, but you know, there's different types of intelligence. My dad was a teacher and he always said,

don't forget remembering a lot of facts, just per who you've got a good memory, it doesn't prove you're smart. He always told us that the surest sign of intelligence and another human being was curiosity. So we were always taught to be curious. And, you know, testing on the day is never something that I did particularly well with. And art is, I have come to, is a much more important realm of education than is given credit in our current curriculum and a lot of people can speak in emotional ways and communicative ways and understand the world like that rather than by pure fact and logic. When you're writing for children, I've always wanted to ask a writer who specialises in children's books. Do you intend to write about the world as it is or the world as it should be? Do you want to be comforting in other words? Well I suppose with my books I have two very particular types of books. There's books like this, Where to Hide a Star, but then there's also books like Here We Are, Notes for Living

on Planet Earth. And some of those books very much write about the world as it is, like the book Begin Again I made last year, and Meanwhile Back on Earth, which is a car journey through space looking at the history of human conflict. But then books like Lost and Found and How to Catch a Star and The Incredible Booking Boy are definitely not books about the way the world is, but more sort of an imaginative approach. And I am lucky enough to remember just to be able to catch the tail end of what it felt like to be a child in a very large and confusing world. And, you know, just that my misinterpretation and misreadings of things and the way in which that led my own private narratives. I'm lucky enough to be able to remember that. And I think right towards that, and there's something, I think, simple and joyous in the process of that.

And growing up, you grew up in Northern Ireland, people may have obviously been able to detect the accident, but were you somebody who sought comfort in books at that time? Were you read to? I was, I sought comfort in art more than in books. I was read to as a young child. I wasn't a big reader. I would much prefer to be, you know, digging holes or playing football on the street or climbing trees.

And it wasn't really until I went to art college that I started becoming an avid reader. And I think the difference was that reading always felt like a chore, like homework. You know, somebody was telling me I had to. And I heard said once that education is what somebody else does to you, but learning is what you do to yourself. And it was only when I started to want to understand about the world and was curious enough myself and being presented with a list of classic books.

And I realized I'd read none of them that I started to read for my own pleasure. And I became an avid reader really at about the age of 19 or 20. Yeah, I've never heard that, that learning is what you do to yourself but that that's so true Oliver, I'll take that one away. Are you someone who is, and I'm sure you've been asked this before, made angry by the celebrity children's author because there are quite a sprinkling of these people who are very well known for something else and then decide to dip their toes into your world.

You know it's my my attitude to this has changed over the years and by 10-15 years ago it was like I suppose my my reaction was well anything that brings the spotlight to this industry is only going to be a good thing. Now unfortunately a lot of the people who have brought that spotlight, the books haven't been very good, and people have a short attention span and so haven't stuck around. And, and I do think it's the sort of thing that people think that would be cool if I did that, that looks easy. But the simpler something

is, usually the more difficult it is to make. And so it is with frustration that the industry itself rewards celebrity rather than actual ability. And I do wish that it wasn't the case that some people that had actual better books in their person that need to be sprung forth in the world got some of the support that these celebrities do for mediocre books. Yes, I mean, you certainly come off the fence there. I mean it's clearly something that irritates those of you who have always been in this world and value it and understand how it works. You know I think really what is happening is it's not celebrity adding their spotlight to

this industry, it's more they're taking this industry to add to their spotlight which I think is unfortunate. Oliver, really appreciate your time. I should say that we've had a WhatsApp message here from a listener called Michael. I picked up Mr. Jeffers book on crayons that sent letters to their young owner just this morning. It belongs to my 21 month old grandson who absolutely loves it. Every page of that book made me chuckle. It was wonderful. Michael is in Suffolk. What is the name of that book Oliver? The Day the Crayons Quit. The Day the Crayons Quit, right okay that's a hearty recommendation from our listener there. Thank you so much, really appreciate your time Oliver. Thank you.

Thank you. Oliver Jeffers who is clearly very, I mean he's multi-talented because his illustrations are absolutely exquisite. And his new book is called Where to Hide a Star. It's very, very touching. He does picture books. Do you remember? Because I know you like the twits, but that was a book with words in it. What about a picture book? I don't think I had a lot of picture books. Straight into War and Peace at five. Yeah, right. Well, there we are. I was trying to remember. Reading Anna Karenina in Russian.

Yeah, no you weren't. The only way. I know the days are long in Derbyshire, but they're not bloody long, surely. Oh, I see, yeah, I did have picture books. I can't remember any of those. What Went Damn Well in Our House With My Own Children was a book called Mucky Mabel,

which I don't think was wildly successful. And I think I bought in a jumbo sale, but it was a very funny book about just a greedy girl. They love that. Yeah, elderly parents wouldn't. No, I know they absolutely wouldn't. Anyway, shout out to Mocky Mabel, if she's listening. Right.

You wear your bikini, Mabel. You go for it. YOLO. We are completely YOLO plus on this podcast, as I think whatever that means. What does YOLO mean? You only live once. That's it yeah and actually I think once will be enough for me. We're at Cheltenham Literature Festival tomorrow. Jane thank you this week it's been great thank you very much. Thank you for having me it's

been a treat. And I'm gonna promote you to Detective Inspector and Fee is very much a sergeant and I am, what am I, Chief Constable. Thank you. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.