Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Did Jesus come back for THIS? (with Eric Schlosser)

Episode Date: March 11, 2026

Happy Hump Day! Jane and Fi have some parental advice to impart that they personally have never - and will never - take. Ears pricked, please! They also cover the Golden Hinde, elongated family stays, solace in the laundry room, and the state of women's healthcare.Plus, journalist Eric Schlosser discusses the 25th anniversary of his exposé ‘Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All-American Meal’.Check out our YouTube channel here: www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiOur next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute.Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Wednesday's podcast. Hello. Hello. You're here. Hello. I tell you what, it's school trip Wednesday, I think, in London today. I nearly got caught up in one. There were some quite large primary school children, and I was in real danger of being mixed up in it all, being swept up by the teacher.

Well, the year sixes are definitely bigger than us. Some of them really are. But I think it must be the Great Fire of London's never far from the school syllabus, is it? Well, I suppose it's what, kind of two, three weeks before end of term. So it is school trip territory, I'm sure. Well, they were all trooping off to see monument. Were they? Okay. There's loads around here for an effective school trip, isn't there?

There is a lot. Which is the fantastic ship? Is it the golden hind? Cotty Sark. The Cotty Sark? Yes, it is. Near here. Yes. HMS Belfast?

Probably. Right. Oh, I think the golden hind is also near here. Cotty Sarks at Greenwich. Okay. I think... Let's just check on that. There's one just literally a hop, skip and a jump, down an oldie-worldy, cobbled street. I think you're right.

Which sometimes, if I've marched on my way to the South Bank after work to do socialising with friendly people, you walk past it. And it's just incredible, A, that it's survived, so long and be that it's so tiny let's just bring in our expert yep eve come in I'm just trying to find it but I know the one you're talking about

because it's by the nice pub the old tin it's exactly there's also a Starbucks there yeah oh it is the golden hind it is the golden hind yeah it is which was the ship that belonged to Francis Drake God you're asking me now oh it was Sir Francis Drake yeah Sir Francis Drake's galleon right and you're right

it's tiny yeah and I know that you can go and spend the night on it can't you Can you? Yes, yeah, with your kids, which would be, I think those kind of experiences are fantastic. You know, the nights at the museum and stuff like that. I never did them, Jane. Nor did I.

But they sound fantastic. And I highly highly commend them to other more dedicated parents. Exactly. We can hint that we absolutely would have done it with our children if we've been asked. Just be enthusiastic about all elements of parenting and just failed to identify which ones you actually bother to do. do, yeah. No, I wouldn't have done that. I mean, the golden hind, I didn't know you could spend the night there. How fabulous. Hello, sailor. Absolutely wonderful. But I wonder what conditions were like

for the people back in the day. So cramped. Sometimes, when you look at the dates of the people who travelled across to the Americas, I mean, that sea, you and I won't even take a birth on the Queen Mary, which is very kindly offered to us by the Times and the Sunday Times every year because they have a, literary ship, don't they, that sets sail. I mean, it's a November or something. She said, oh, my God. She did say ship. I mean, the literary shit is somebody completely different.

Well known to many in the book world. It's a literary ship. But we won't even go on that, will we? So the idea that you could, you know, that Vasco da Gama set off from Portugal and whatever it was, I mean, it was the mid-18th century, wasn't it, with a ship. I mean, he didn't know how he was going to manage to keep his crew alive.

he didn't know exactly how long anything was going to take. You didn't really know where he was going, Jane. And he set off, I mean, I've just find that mind-boggling. Just mind-boggling. No ways. Nothing. No, nothing. And you just think, God, I mean, the night before, he must have thought, I can't be asked.

I can't be asked. I've told all these, I can't be asked. Because everyone has that feeling, don't they? Especially we've got a long-haul flight leaving from Heathrow at 5.30. Just think, I won't bother. Well, I think that about astronauts. What do they do? on that last night on earth.

You can't sleep, surely. You must be absolutely petrified out of your wits. Let's just hail the intrepid of the world because they've been amongst us for quite some time. They're not novelties. I mean, as you say, they were back 400, 500 years ago, these people. I mean, they just had guts that, frankly, we haven't. Yeah, they really did.

Yeah. Yes, it's really quite, it's given us pause for thought, hasn't it? It has, but let's not pause too long, because this is a podcast and pausing doesn't work. Here's Naomi, who lives in London. Lewis, who's a long-time listener and chuckler, I had a traditional but mini hot cross bun with Waitrose's Herb de Provence. I can't try that again.

With Waitroseauzez en sec. It was incredible. The salty sweet combination, I was so delighted, I wasn't sure, but wow, you have to try this. No. I mean, just absolutely, no. So the Herb de Provence sausage en sec. What is that? Well, is that just a slice?

It's a dry sliced sausage. It's a charcutory, surely. For God's sake, you're putting dry sausage of a hot cross bun. Did Jesus die for this? Well, he did, but he came back. So did Jesus come back for this? That's a more optimistic note. More in keeping with the time of year.

Yes, absolutely. I just can't see that that would work at all now. I admire you, and I know that Lewis has practically off-grid in terms of its style, its uvra and its rebellious spirit. So maybe that's the kind of thing that you're doing down there. All hail to you, if it is.

But that just made me, I had a proper little sickie burt when I read that, Naomi. Naomi goes on to say, you were talking about Harry Stiles and other artists the other day. I thought of mentioning to you and the hive about Lofi.

Have you heard of Laufi? Lofi? No, a crooner. I believe so. She's playing in London at the moment. My 13-year-old daughter adores her. She has quite a different tone, almost sounds 1950s. Perhaps one of her tracks could go on the off-air collections, such as Love a Girl.

So let's go in search of that. How is the podcast playlist Coiled Spring doing? Is it full, Eve? Come in, Eve. I believe the playlist will be created and full by Friday. Okay. So it actually couldn't have a worse title. It's not a coiled spring.

It's more of a dead slinky. That's correct. A soon-to-be revived one, like Jesus. Very good. Yes. Let's hear it for her. Now, yesterday we read out an email from an anonymous listener who's facing a major life change.

But in many ways, a joyous one. A joyous one. The arrival in her are quite ordered, you know, gentle existence of pre-retirement. I think she said, didn't she? Yeah, so she lives in a radio four-centred house. Yes, where there's probably a beautiful speaker, perhaps an old Roberts radio, something like that.

Maybe a robot vacuum doing its business and not disturbing the peace and tranquility. I'm going to say there's a diffuser. I imagine so, yeah. And possibly a bird, a bird table outside. I think they might actually have a proper ticking clock. And one of those. Anyway, into all this comes,

I think it's, was it son and daughter-in-law? And two young boys. Two young boys who've got to stay because they're between houses, as can happen. Now, our anonymous listener thought it would be for up to a period of five months. Well, Fia and I have already worried that it could be for a lot longer than that.

So what advice do you have? Sandra says, I'm writing in response to the lady who's just settled in her retired, relatively quiet life. And now offspring and their family are staying for up to five months. think real hard about it says Sandra it sounds like someone who may have been through this

I'm sure everyone will talk about routines disruptions noise etc here's something to think about depending on the age and health of the couple know that children a virus transports they'll bring this into the house from school and or the playground be prepared to catch cold or something else

probably more often than you care to right Sandra thank you very much Do you want more? Well, I think we do need more. I think it's an unpleasant point that's been made by Sandra, but it is true. Yeah, it is true. I mean, it's like when you have a child

and initially they're actually, if you're fortunate, they're in good health, and then they start interacting with other babies and toddlers and they just get everything, don't they? Well, yeah, there is the terrible first couple of months of nursery or school that I think just does it for every child and therefore parents, because it's kids meeting new germs for the first time, isn't it? Which is very good for them. We know that, don't we?

Because when they didn't have that exposure during lockdown, all kinds of things, unpleasant came around the corner. But it is, it's wearisome, isn't it? You just seem to go from, you know, one heap of norovirus to one heap of, is it hand, foot and mouth? Hand foot and mouth, yeah, that's the one. Slap cheek. And then knits, obviously. I mean, it's all.

Worms. Oh, and worms. Worms, you have to give the medication in the jam sandwich. Oh, we just had the rather lovely tasting banana gloop. It's very much like a protein drink. And in a way it is. Anyone's wondering what worms look like. They look like worms.

And lots of people get them. Oh, yes. No goodness me. Have you got them? Not. I'm not going to mention it. I am just moving a little uneasily on myself. seat. I haven't got them.

Do another one. Our daughter and her partner live with us says another anonymous correspondent, we don't charge rent, and I always load the dishwasher. But they do pay for a cleaner. Hashtag top tip. That could be something to think about. They do their own laundry. We check in with each other

about this to coordinate who's using the washing machine error and tumble dryer every day. I think that's sensible. They do their own grocery shopping and cooking. This works because we usually eat it about six, whereas they eat at about eight. Sometimes I'll cook a roast for all of us or they'll do a steak. They have space in the main fridge, a drawer in the freezer and their own small fridge. This arrangement works well,

possibly because we also have separate televisions, possibly because we're away every other weekend. Well, I think that probably helps. I do think it would be different if there were children involved, says Anonymous. They would need a lot more storage space and living space. But even then, it's basically a house share arrangement made by adults who understand what's involved in running a household, so it should be a lot less stressful than house sharing with students or teenagers, make expectations clear, discuss issues as they arise, and plan for time apart. And I, says Anonymous, I'm sure it will be fine. That's in contrast to Sandra. It basically said you'll just be ill all the time. I think going in hard at the beginning with your rules and regulations

is a very top tip, because you can always ease back on them, can't you? But if you try and, you know, chisle out more time or different curfews or whatever, you're going to run into a bit of bother about that, aren't you? I think so, I think so. So I just hope also that the house is big enough for you to still keep a little bit of your own space because if every single room is going to be taken up with new visitors, I think, and your bedrooms,

your only available go-to sanctuary, I think that's going to feel a bit tough as well, isn't it? Yes, there's nothing worse than, well, just falling over things all the time. and kiddies do enjoy a bit of cluttered. I've always had the laundry room. I mean, I have to say, you know, I'm not casting huge aspersions on my ex, but it wasn't very interesting laundry, Jane.

He didn't mind. I hope you cited that. He didn't mind the fact that the laundry room was just mine. I mean, it was a place where the kids... Well, that was good of him. Wasn't it just. But the kids weren't really allowed. And, I mean, by room, I mean, it's a big cupboard. It's got a washing machine,

room for me and a small ironing board and that's it. But it's on the first floor of our house, it's off the bedroom, which is very handy. I never really understand why people build in laundry at the bottom of a house. Because if you're in a townhouse in London, or you've just got a couple of stories on your house, you are always walking up and down the stairs with great big bundles of laundry. So anyway, it's on the first floor. It looks out over the street.

So I could just be incredibly known. It was just the most brilliant, brilliant place of sanctuary during COVID. I'd just go and iron a lot of things and just watch people, you know, going about their muted business in the street. It was fabulous. Muted business, a good way of putting it. It was all a bit like that. Oh, it was very muted.

Yeah. Yes, it'd raise a really good point. My washing machine is in the cellar. Jane, and you've got, I mean, you have got a palace. How many floors are on top of that? Buckingham. Palace. Three floors. So you are walking up and downstairs with great big baskets of laundry. Well, not so much these days because the household isn't really full. And I do expect my

offspring to sort her own laundry out, to be really honest with you. Yeah. But back in the day... Although I do the majority. I think that's a design floor. I really do. I can't explain why that happened, but I've sort of unquestioned. I haven't questioned it enough. It's stupid, isn't it? Yeah. I wonder whether anybody else has got a first-floor laundry room. Do tell us. Can I just read one more on the subject? My ears pricked up when I heard your correspondent slightly worried about having family to stay for up to five months.

We were lucky enough last summer to have our family over from Sydney through a three-month stay and honestly it was a magical time. Well this is nice, isn't it? The weather was fab which did help. Well, it would. Our grandsons were just two and four. They were energetic, challenging, but enchanting.

Our daughter was here for most of the time and worked for two days a week, so we were in sole charge quite often. my husband and I tag-teamed care so that really helped we did manage to carry on things that we both like to do my advice would be to buy a trampoline a variety of balls a cricket set and a paddling pool

the game changer was a plastic flat it's difficult game changer was a plastic floor mat under the small table and chairs under the small table and chairs which was given a thorough shaking every night we did have a few rules most importantly and I'm with you here no eating on the sofa.

Very good. Very good, yeah. Can I do some quick parish notices, which have actually been in my bottom drawer for a long time now, so my apologies, because Ellen wanted us to wish Freya, her friend and housemate, happy birthday on her 26th birthday, which is actually nearly two weeks ago now,

and Freya was introduced to offer by Ellen after they began living together a couple of years ago. it's since become a regular topic of conversation on our little walks to the shops or over a glass of wine. We do have plenty of other things to talk about too, don't worry. I'm sure you do. You wouldn't be able to sustain this nonsense all the time. So my apologies that we didn't get around to doing that in time,

but belated happy birthday to the wonderful frayer. And Jane, do you remember this? It comes in from Billy, who says, I recently found out from my mum that Jane actually interviewed her back on Woman's Hour about an art piece which she had made in which she filled me for one minute a month from the ages of 11 to 8

exploring the passage of time from childhood into adulthood I do remember that it sounded like a great idea yeah yeah that is fantastic idea is the audio still available I don't know what an interesting thing to have done yes it is and Billy said that it was an incredibly traumatic experience

for her mum and you were dreadful no she just doesn't say that at all you were trying to I do remember it I do remember it and I think all you know I wish

I wish I had more recordings of my children when they were first speaking and things like that I wish I had more recordings with myself there were loads of those don't worry about it I listen every night it's a really really good point

Jane and now because we're endlessly photographing on our cameras and all that kind of stuff I think just recording quite specific things when you're really having a think about it, I think that's gone by the by.

My personal bug bear or hobby horse, whatever it is, I think we've lost the ability to celebrate just voice recordings. And obviously that's what the listening project is all about. But people say different things when the camera's off. They just do. It's the absolute glory of the medium of audio. And, you know, sometimes when you hear

long-form conversation from way back when, it's so magical. Without pictures, it's so, so magical. And we don't do that at all anywhere anymore. No. Do you know, I was on a plane, I've seen last summer, and there was a baby who was just learning to crawl on the plane. And I think it was a flight back from Greece. And he was with his mum and dad. It was a little boy, I think. And I don't want to be careful, haven't you, but I think it was. Anyway, he would crawl down the plane. I mean, supervised by the parents and, you know, the attentive cabin crew were very nice about it. and then he'd crawl back to his mum and dad, and then he'd sit on his dad's lap

and watch the video of him crawling, and then he'd do it again. Wow. I don't know. I'm thinking, I mean, he seemed to love watching the videos. God, but is that instilling very early on in a child, a kind of narcissism? Oh, my God, that you might find it a difficult stain to remove later?

Yes, possibly. It kept him amused. But it is so true, isn't it? We all want to see ourselves back. Yeah, yeah. I don't think I did. I was so fat as a toddler and I was so late to walk. I'm happy not to have those images.

I'm fine. But I think there's a natural human curiosity, isn't there, to see our own image. But no, I'm with you on that. I mean, there are a whole years in my mum's photo album that I just can't look at. Those teenagers are absolutely terrible. I'm sure they're not.

Oh, no. are. They're my inflatable years. And I just find it quite painful to look at them now, actually. The experimentation with various different looks. Just didn't work. Back to Billy, who continues. I very excitedly went back to find this interview on the BBC archives, and it felt like a very full circle moment for me, hearing Jane speaking to my mum about me. Having grown up in Hackney and loving the London Fields Lido, I also get a lot of comfort hearing Fee speak about it and often wonder if her and my mum, who goes nearly every morning, have ever unknowingly crossed paths. Well, Billy, we must have done. And it would be nice to say hello to her.

I don't know how she'd identify me, really. I'm always in the slow lane these days. Well, don't do yourself to. Are you always? Oh, I'm always in the slow night. It's just much, much nicer, Jane. There's, you know, over in the fast lanes, everybody's very worked up. And if you're going in the morning, you tend to be with quite a lot of triathlete, competitive training people. and you know for all of the exercise they're taking they're still very stressed and so you know it's usually a bit of shouting and you're going too fast and you overtook me and all that kind of stuff yeah it's interesting isn't it how it's meant to make you it's meant to de-stress you and make you mindful some people are just very aggressive regardless yeah now um so do tell your mum billy to

say hello if she recognises me in the lido because it's always it's always nice well billy thank you for that email because it's a lot it's really your mum's idea was a brilliant one and I'm really rather jealous of the whole concept and um and thank you for that reminder uh anne says uh i like the new branding but i fear that jane may have finally lost it as she seems to be about to take aim at some poor bugger with a fake pistol hand pose i think that's cagney and lacy isn't it in their later years is the certainly i think i'm i think i'm definitely going for that look and i've probably failed uh but anne thank you she just says thanks a million for being there and doing what you do well you don't need to thank us well people have said very nice things about

visualization and quite a few of you also said that you can't be bothered with it and either which way is completely fine completely fine I want to just return to endometriosis if that's okay because there are another couple of emails that I think are very worthy of an airing and this is from Christian who's in Wivenho in Essex I always think that's rather glorious that just sounds what it sounds a little bit Robin Hood like doesn't it? Yeah is that or is it Wivenho? It's an Anglo-Saxon word isn't it

I believe so. I'm sorry if I've mispronounced it. Dear Jane and Fee, thank you for your interview with Georgie. If there are any Saxons who've been offended. Or Angloes. Well done. It was one of the clearest and most honest explanations of the reality of endometriosis and adenomyosis. I've heard in mainstream media, too often these conditions are still reduced to painful periods

when in reality they are complex diseases that can affect every aspect of a person's life. Endometriosis has shaped my family across generations. My mum and I had it and my sister had both endometriosis and adenomyosis. Neither my sister nor I were able to have children and we both ultimately underwent hysterectomies because of the impact on our health. What many people may not realise

is what those statistics mean in real life. Imagine an 18-year-old today missing college, all of college because she's in so much pain she can't get off the bathroom floor. On average she may not receive a diagnosis until around July 2035 when she would be 27 years old. If she then needs surgery based on current waiting times, she could still be waiting another 65 weeks, meaning that treatment may not come around until October 2036 when she would be nearly 29 years old.

You go on to say that you now work as a menstrual health coach, supporting women living with these conditions. In an ideal world, my role would not need to exist. women would be listened to, believed and referred promptly for proper care and treatment, instead of spending years waiting in pain. I just think, I think that email says it all really, doesn't it? And it's, what a terrible thing, I'm just so sorry. And to have those years of not feeling that you're not being listened to, and then eventually when you are, and the waiting times today sound terrible.

And then when the treatment, Jane, is a hysterectomy. That's all they can offer. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's, it's, mind-boggling how much is being put up with. This came in from Jeanette, though, who says, I've been listening to the discussion about endometriosis and its impact on women in the workplace. And while the issue is clearly important and deserves attention, I can't help but be concerned about how the conversation might be interpreted by some people. In particular, it risks reinforcing the views of those who already hold misogynistic attitudes or who question the idea that women

should have equal opportunities. They may use this as justification for discriminatory thinking or a reason to hesitate when hiring or promoting women. That possibility worries me because conversations meant to highlight genuine health challenges should not be twisted into arguments against equality in the workplace. I wonder what you think. Well, I mean, I think you're absolutely right on what can happen, but I don't think that we should not talk about these things because there's a chance that that will happen.

And then I completely agree with your quandary. I hear her point, and I think sometimes the menopause is in that category as well, that it's wonderful that we're talking much more frankly about it. But there's also the chance that it might mean that some people think that women in their 50s are unemployable because they're likely to... Yeah, they're always moaning and they're a bit daffy. So I see the point, I absolutely see the point Jeanette's making, but I'm all for honesty, transparency, and hopefully those two things leading to better care and treatment for women.

I really do. I just think women have suffered. I mean, it's such an obvious point. I just suffered in silence for too bloody long. And I know it's so hackneyed to say this, but if men did go through this, more would have been done. Yeah, I completely agree. I completely agree.

And, you know, I've been one of those women who has pretended that my period problems are something else because I haven't wanted to announce it in the workplace through a feeling of, oh, I don't know. No, it's not shame. It was definitely when I was in my 20s embarrassment

of feeling that I wouldn't really be understood, especially because they were pretty much all male bosses at the time, and a fear of exactly what Jeanette is referring to that I would be regarded as weaker than my male colleagues. So I'd say I had a chest infection or I had food poisoning. And actually, I'd just be on the bathroom floor. And it took until I was in my 50s. and was being treated for something else

for a consultant to tell me exactly how bad my adenoma ices had been through the scarring that's been left there. So that's just a whole lifetime. I'm not comparing myself at all to people like Christian who've ended up having to have a treatment that has completely and utterly derailed a part of their lives. I'm not claiming that for myself at all,

but I have massive sympathy with women who have covered up their period pain because Jeanette's right. That's all over. the workplace, but you're right too, that if we don't now flush it out, it just won't change. And you want the treatment times to come down to the point at which a young woman, as Christian says, you know, at the age of 18 who's experiencing this, gets treatment within six months. To help her. To help her. Yeah. So she can just get on with the rest of her life.

And it doesn't get to the point at which you have to have a hysterectomy. So that's what we need. So we just have to be incredibly accommodating, don't we, as older people in the workplace to make sure that our younger colleagues feel that they can talk about this, and we talk about this here. And then hopefully we're part of a change. I do think Wes Streeting, I know that you can find fault with any politician, and there may be areas where not everybody adores Wes. But I think he's taking... I think Wes adores West.

Wes makes up for it. Yes, it does. Don't you worry. I think he genuinely seems to be saying things about women's health. Oh, no, he's definitely doing that, yeah. That have not been said enough before. So all hail you, Wes. You take it on board, mate.

Try and do something about it. Yeah, well, here, here to all that. It's such a shame we can't really go into detail about this email, but thank you so much. Oh, no, come on. I think we can get very, very, very close. Well, a couple of weeks ago, we did mention a, I'm going to say

a former television personality. Would that be, that would be okay. She's not, it's, oh, I've given it away, it is a lady, someone who's sort of re-emerged into the headlines because of an incident that it occurred. Anyway, am I, is that enough?

Too much? Possibly too much. Anyway, thanks to our correspondent who just brings us some musings. I mean, all I'll say is, if you see anybody off the telly behaving irrationally and you want to know where can I send

this information? The answer is to us. We may or may not be able to use it but we'd certainly like to read it. It's Jane and Fee at Times Stop Radio. This particular individual was allegedly notorious in her local supermarket. All the staff dreaded

her arrival, nothing but complaints and she'd insist on having a weekly battle with the self-scanner which she quite simply couldn't work. Life would have been so much easier. had she chosen to go to a cashier, but she just wouldn't. This was much too easy. And I think it would deprive her of theatrical moments.

Right. Okay, well, we can't really say much more about that, can we? We can't, no. But our correspondence got a bit of a bird's eye view courtesy of one of her children. Who is working in a supermarket at the time. And apparently this celebrity just had completely had enough. so her ultimatum was that she was taking her business to M&S.

Right. And the shop was fell to cross the markets. But guess what? I mean, that puts all the troubles with that. That's just brilliant. When you've had enough of weight, you're going to... M&S! See how you like it.

Only to come back. Oh, dear. Excellent. Oh, yes, thank you for the email. It makes us laugh. I just love the fact as well that you've acknowledged the fact that we just can't read it out, but you just wanted and needed,

very much needed to share it with somebody. Can I also say a huge thank you to Alice, who has sent in a recommendation to listen to a track on Spotify. What is it? Now, I love all these things, because I open the links when I'm still, you know, bleary-eyed in the morning.

And this one is a song by Jacks, and it's about Victoria's secrets because you are amusing as to whether or not there was a Victor's secret anyway and it turns out there was yeah so there's another email coming about that but the jacks and I hope

that we would be able to squeeze it onto our playlist actually because it's just so brilliant some of the lyrics God I wish someone had told me when I was younger that all bodies aren't the same Photoshop, itty-bitty models on magazine covers told me I was overweight I stopped eating

what a bummer If I could go back and tell myself when I was younger I'd say, pst, I know Victoria's secret and you wouldn't believe it. She's an old man who lives in Ohio. That's true as well, isn't it? And it is true. It is true.

But it's a great song, and I haven't done it justice there with the lyrics. But I love those. I couldn't listen to a whole album of that kind of, you know, clever piss-taking. But just, you know, the odd track dropped into a playlist, I think is phenomenal. And she's bang on the money is Jack's about all of that. that nonsense. That other great song is, is it messy by Lola Young? That's such a clever song.

I mean, it's both catchy and super, super clever. It's about her mum, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. I think she's a phenomenal talent that one. Yeah, she is. So Victor's Secret, turns out Victor's Secret did exist, but Victoria's Secret sued, and it went all the way to the US Supreme Court. Who knew? This is from the Wikipedia link, so I'll keep it brief. In 1998, a weekly publication distributed to residents at Fort Knox, Kentucky, contained an ad for the grand opening of a shop called Victor's Secret. It sold lingerie and adult novelties. An army colonel who saw the ad was offended by what he perceived as an attempt to use a reputable company's trademark to sell unwholesome tawdry merchandise and contacted

Victoria's Secret, which then requested the couple involved to immediately discontinue the use of the name Victor's Secret and any variations thereof. Well, I mean, I'll tell you what, isn't this educational, this podcast in its own way? Isn't it just? Yes. But all of those things, just, I always think that the big company comes off so badly. I mean, how petty. And I mean, as if anybody's seriously going to look as it and go, oh, yeah, that is Victoria's.

Yeah, I will pop in there. You know, they'll know that they're just taking the Mickey and stuff. We've got kind of greasy spoon in my neck of the wood. that's called the Ritz. And it's, I think it just lumbes on. I think people, you know, it's not in Piccadilly or wherever the Ritz is. It's quite clearly not the Ritz,

but it's the Ritz. And if you want egg and chips, go in. Yeah. I wanted to mention Priscilla, who's 84, she says. Now that wouldn't be, I don't think that would be, well, it would be perhaps going towards

one of our more senior listeners, do you think? Very much so, Jane. Yes, because we wished Freya a happy 26th birthday earlier on in this very same podcast. Yeah, so come in, Priscilla, is what I wanted to say. This is from a devoted fan. I'm in a small town, Swellendam,

near the very southern tip of Africa. But the troubles in the Middle East, but the troubles in the Middle East have an effect even here. My daughter is about to visit her grandson, that's my great-grandson in Germany, and my son, who's a ceramicist, is about to go on a two-month visit to Versailles in Paris.

And as a result, I'm full of trepidation about events in Europe and the Middle East. Your show brings joy into my rather solitary life. Thank you. Priscilla, please try not to worry too much about your wider family, although I understand why you might be somewhat concerned right now. But they sound fascinating and I'm just very grateful to hear that you find this podcast a bit of a comfort and we're delighted to have you, aren't we? We certainly are. And 84 is a great age and Priscilla is a lovely name. It is. This is a missing trigger warning

We're in trouble again This time, it's not me, it's you Jane I love and trust your book recommendation Says Maz from Isleworth I've listened to and really enjoyed Lots of the Louise Penny Amund Gamash series Thank you to Fee no sexual violence

No dead children Jane, your interview with Ellie Griffiths was so lovely I immediately downloaded the crossing places It's beautifully written and read aloud Then imagine my distress To find that there are little girls being kidnapped and trapped underground

I'm not sure I can carry on on with this one. I thought you stood clear of this kind of subject matter. I know you can't put a trigger warning on all your recommendations but a general heads up would have been helpful. Now Mas, I think you make a very good point actually that

and I wouldn't mind at all if we did start doing that even with our very very favourite authors. If we just identify books that do have harm to children or harm to women in them. Yes, I have to say I

didn't think I had forgotten about that element of that very first novel about Dr Ruth Galloway but I think the children survive okay spoiler spoiler yes they yes one well

anyway that's not the reason why I read those books they're actually they are and it might sound weird in the context of this email and I absolutely take it but they're rather a comfort read actually yeah but I think it's a good point to make because you know when all the things come up on Netflix or Amazon Prime or whatever you're watching on

and it'll say kind of quite specific things now about the level of violence or the level of language and it will say themes of suicide I would like there to be something that says harm comes to children because so many plots around a missing child or a stolen child I imagine if they had to alert us to a dead woman. Yeah, well... There'd be no thrillers left, would they?

Yeah. It's just worth saying that you found Netflix's Vladimir too much, and you were not alone because I pointed it out to you yesterday, the reviewer in the sun said they didn't like the cut of its job either. Yep, so, I mean, if it's making a sun reviewer feel awkward. That's my point. I don't feel so bad about the orcs. We're going to talk about it with Scott Bryan today, aren't we,

who's our resident TV, review and an all-time TV great. Now he crops up in something, doesn't he? I saw him. He was in how to get to Heaven from Belfast. That's right. He was being a showbiz reporter. Yeah. Good for him. Right, shall we move on to the guest Eve has lent in. And when Eve leans in, we know it's time for us to stop this jiggery-pokery

and get to another person. A coquettish Marilyn Monroe looks out at you from the front cover of Eric Schlosser's seminal book Fast Food Nation. She's about to tuck into a burger, served to her in her car at a drive-thru. It was the American dream on a tray. Tasty food for the masses served at a time and a price that suited the customer. But it had a dark side. And when Eric Strasser first published his book 25 years ago,

he shone a light behind the serving hatch, one that revealed whole industries of yuck. From the child labour in food packing factories to the horrendous safety standards of some abattoirs and meat production houses to the lack of animal welfare on huge dairy farms. All the way through, he detailed what lay behind the arches, the secret recipes, the wholesome Wendy-star image of American fast food. To celebrate 25 years since then, it has been republished with a new chapter at the end,

and you would hope that we've made progress. Eric joined us from the States, I asked him where he was in his own life, when he first started writing Fast Food Nation 25 years ago. like so many other people in the sense that I ate this food without ever thinking about it. I travel a lot from my work, and it was just incredibly convenient to go to McDonald's, grab something quickly, and I had small children, and I took them to McDonald's, and I never really thought about it. And the editor of Rolling Stone asked me to write a piece on the fast food industry and go behind the counter and show where this food comes from, and

how it's made and I really I didn't jump at the assignment because I didn't want to write something that was condescending and put down this food because I ate it and I said I'd think about it and I started researching the industry and I was amazed at how quickly our food system and this when I say are not just the American but throughout the West how quickly the food system had been changed without any of us really seeing it or understanding. And the reason is the food looks the same, but it was being produced in a whole new way. This gigantic fast food industrial system had arisen behind the scenes. And so that's what made me right it.

It wasn't to attack hamburgers and French fries. It was to show, you know, where we're eating, where it comes from, and the impact that is sort of invisible. And tell us a little bit more about all of those things that you found. because it's so fascinating, isn't it? The food that comes through the hatch to us as the customer, it actually tells you so little about what's happening in meat production, packaging factories, in abattoirs, in dairy farms.

I mean, this is a completely hidden world to most of us, isn't it? It is. And, you know, I have gotten this reputation as a food writer, but people who know me well just, you know, I am the worst cook that you could possibly imagine. And I'm not a foodie in the classical sense of, you know, really comparing different olive oils for their aroma and their flavor sense. I got involved in food issues by spending a year following the harvest in California with strawberry workers. And it was a way of showing before Fast Food Nation where our food comes from because there had been a huge increase in strawberry

production in the United States. And I'm in California right now, and California grows most of the strawberries that Americans eat. But every one of those strawberries needs to be picked carefully by hand, because strawberries brews so easily. So if you're going to have tons and tons of strawberries, you need lots of hands of poor migrant workers to harvest them. And the same is true in the United Kingdom, you know, for your strawberries. So with that, that article in the strawberry industry, I was trying to show what goes into bringing you this, this very simple food. And with Fast Food Nation, I did the same. And what was so shocking to me. And one of the reasons that I took this Rolling Stone article and I turned it into a book

was when I went into the slaughterhouses. I met people in some cases who had been migrant farm workers in California. And the same people were doing this terrible, terrible work in American slaughterhouses, this brutal, dangerous work. There's a very famous American novel called The Jungle by Epton-Sinclair. It was published in 1906, and it was about the brutality of the meatpacking industry as a way of looking at the brutality of the American capitalism of his age. You know, there was child labor, there was a six-day work week. People worked 10 hours a day.

If you got injured, you got fired. And that book really resonated with me because after the jungle was published, in 1906, the meatpacking industry eventually was reformed. And being a meatpacking worker became a really high paid middle class job. It was a union job. It was like being an auto worker. But by the time I came to write Fast Food Nation, the unions had been wrecked, driven out of the plants. And it had become an incredibly dangerous, low-wage job, much like the farm workers that I'd written about years earlier. So again, I'm not trying to scold people. I'm not trying to tell people what to eat. I have no moral superiority whatsoever on that level. But what I'm trying to do with

these things that I've written about food is show where your food comes from and what the consequences are of buying certain foods, not just for yourself and your health, but also for the rest of society. So the book told us so much about the huge power of these big food corporations. It told us about animal welfare, as you've mentioned. It told us about working conditions within the food chain. Remind us of what the reaction of all of those vested interests was to you when the book came out. You know, they really didn't like the book. And I was personally, you know, by the big food companies. And, you know, it just shows, despite being so powerful,

how thin-skinned they really are to this day. I mean, as a writer and someone who writes books, you know, you get bad reviews. But I don't attack and, you know, go after and wait outside the house of book critics because they don't like my book. And yet here you have companies, McDonald's, for example, that spends a billion dollars a year on advertising and marketing. And I can tell you that the marketing budget for Fast Food Nation was significantly less than that. And it was really stressful because when I would appear in public, there were often demonstrators who would try to disrupt my talks.

There were threats made against me. And it was clear that this was being organized because in different cities, the pamphlets attacking me would be exactly the same, except at the top, the name of the group in the city would be different. And, you know, I'm not one of these people who's looking for this kind of, you know, like tabloid shouting at one another on TV. I'm pretty chill. The book sort of speaks for itself. And yet there was real pushback against it.

Having said that, I'm extraordinarily fortunate that it was published the way that I wrote it. I didn't have to change anything for legal reasons. And my God, it's in print 25 years later. So I ultimately, as a writer, have nothing to complain about. But it was interesting to see how savage these companies could be just for the slightest criticism. And really wouldn't engage in any dialogue with me, but just came up with all kinds of ways to attack me.

One of the ways that they attacked you was they kind of wanted to portray you as being a po-faced socialist, didn't they, in a world of the happy capitalist. And I mean, there is an argument, Eric, that we as consumers are driving that industry because we like our fast food, we want our chicken crunchy, we want to eat lots of meat, we're happy, it's all fried. And so who are you to come along and say, there's a bit of an aftertaste going on there? Yeah.

Well, the kind of economic system that we have right now would be very difficult for Adam Smith, the great proponent of capitalism to recognize. I mean, Adam Smith and the founders of the United States were very much anti-monopoly. When you have incredible power over a market, that's really the opposite of capitalism. And one of the things that Fast Food Nation did and the afterward that I recently wrote for it is show how one sector of our economy, and especially in the food industry, has been taken over by just a handful of companies that don't really, really compete. And it's, It's true that consumers have an enormous amount of power over the industry, but when you look at, and I love Penguin UK, which has just been extraordinary as a publisher for me, but they're

advertising for my book isn't quite a billion dollars a year. So when you're in the realm of public opinion, it isn't really a fair fight. But I think of all the purchases that we make, food is one of the most important, not only for your own health, but for the health of your family and the health of your society. And I think it bears a little more thought than we've given it to, given to it previously. One of the encouraging things happened in the last 25 years is that a whole new food system has arisen in opposition to the fast food system. You know, there are farmers markets, there's organic food, there's much more interest in sustainable regenerative agriculture.

But what you see is that food is really available to the wealthy and people who are well educated. A lot of it is about do you have access to good healthy food and do you have access to the knowledge that will encourage you to choose it? And too often you see the people who are eating the most unhealthy food are the people who can least afford it and are going to suffer the worst consequences from it. And so, Eric, when you wrote the book 25 years,

ago, you know, if you could have cast your mind forward to us having this conversation now, you can't possibly have wanted the world of food to still be, exactly as you've just described it, good for the minority at the top of the pile and still pretty poor for most people further down. Yeah, the egomaniac in me would have just been delighted that the book is still in print 25 years later, but I would have wanted it to be more of a historical work that people read to look at how people were eating at the end of the 20th beginning of the 21st century and kind of remarking it, wow, that's, you know,

like reading Roman history and all the strange things they ate in their great banquets, I would have liked it to have been a work of history. And who's to blame for that? Because if in 2026, the people that you've talked to, about already, you know, working in the meat packing factory, in the slaughterhouse, on the massive dairy farm, I mean, if they're no better off now

than they were back then, is it government, is it legislation, is it the consumer? Why hasn't there been change? Well, to give a local context, you know, the Labor Party, looking at the history of the Labor Party, it was founded to help the

workers of the United Kingdom. And yet, when I was writing fast Nation, the Labor Party, was being sponsored by the McDonald's Corporation, and simply because McDonald's was donating so much money to labor. So one of the sad truths is that the political systems of both of our countries have been so corrupted by money. It's just beyond belief. And I'm not even getting into the scandals with the Republican Party and the Tories. So firstly, is the corruption of government by money. And these big corporations have much more money than migrant farm workers and meatpacking workers. And the second is, you know, what I was

alluded to earlier, the disproportionate ability of these companies to get their point of view across versus their critics. So, you know, we're talking billions of dollars in advertising and marketing. It's not entirely a fair fight. One of the things that's really sad right now is all these weight loss drugs that people are taking. It's a sign of how. how hard it is to change your eating habits that you need to take a drug that's going to help you lose weight and a drug that you'll probably have to be on for the rest of your life in order for that weight loss to stick. So what we really need to do is to prevent people from becoming unhealthy in the first place.

And I think this industry bears enormous responsibility for the poor health of adults, but especially for the poor health of the children in the United States and the United Kingdom, because once you become obese and by the age of 12 or 13, it's very, very difficult to lose that weight. It doesn't mean that you're doomed to it. It just means it's really hard

once you emerge from childhood as severely overweight or obese. Let's talk about the now, and I think probably I would know the answer to a question that asks for your opinion about President Trump and his diet, so we might park that in obvious corner. But I do want to ask you about the Secretary of Health and Human Services

to give him his full title, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And I'll quote a bit from the book for our listeners. RFK Jr. has made a series of misleading claims about AIDS, measles, vaccines, COVID-19, autism, Tylenol, antidepressants, fluorinated water, the role of germs in causing disease, chemtrails 9-11, and how a dead bear cub once wound up

in New York City's Central Park. But Kennedy's political instincts about food have been astute. His endorsement most likely won Trump the presidency in 2024 and his influence has turned right-wing pundics like Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck, who ridiculed Michelle Obama's efforts to promote exercise and healthy eating,

into cheerleaders for those same policies. help us understand what's going on there. Well, I'll give you the hopeful aspect of it. The hopeful part of it is that in the United States, and I believe in the United Kingdom as well, there is enormous popular support for healthy food, especially for children. And Bobby Kennedy, to his credit,

had the political instinct and the nerve to say that out loud. and I've been involved in the United States working with senators and congressmen for years on these issues, and it's been remarkable how cowardly both political parties have been in taking on these big food companies. So Bobby Kennedy said out loud this truth, and Donald Trump has kept along because Bobby Kennedy brought maybe 4%, 5% of the vote with him, mainly white, suburban mothers. So that's the good part about Bobby Kennedy. The bad part is he's like a broken clock. He's right twice a day and he's wrong for the other 23 hours and 59 minutes. I mean, I personally think he's a terrible human being and that thousands of Americans,

maybe many of them children, are going to die because of his anti-science absurd beliefs. But what's almost like a hallucination for me is he gets out on the campaign train. and he starts using language that could have been in fast food nation or in Michael Pollan's book, Omnivore's Dilemma. And he uses these slogans that the food movement, that is the movement, bring healthy, sustainable food to the world, he uses the slogans and behind it is the Trump administration, which is cutting spending on food safety, which is cutting regulations on pesticides, which is, you know, destroying the public health system of the United States.

So the good news is there is a well of popular support for changing this system. The bad news is right now that movement in the United States is being led by a total conman. Let's try and end on a positive note, Eric, but I'm not sure whether or not it is possible to do so. It is. It is. And I hate, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to end on it because I would not have written this book, and I wouldn't have returned to it 25 years later and written a new chapter, if I thought all is lost and doom and gloom and woe is me. What's striking to me is that things don't have to be this way. And I've seen people change their diets. I've seen really good changes.

And it gets back to what we were talking about before. You know, if you are in London and you are wealthy, you are going to eat extremely well and have a Pilates class and be fit as can be. And there's a certain segment of the population that has changed to seizing habits that is fit and healthy and is going to have a long life. And we need to bring that opportunity to everybody. And it's totally possible. Just on the meat stuff, we've been eating meat as a society for thousands and thousands of years, but we've never eaten meat that's produced with such systematic cruelty to the animals

and cruelty to the workers and destruction of the environment. So we can change things, and it's totally possible, but the first step to changing them is being aware of what the problem is. That's what I'd rather do with my work. Might there be a possibility, Eric,

that the GLP-1 drugs, which do seem to change people's appetites, not just as an appetite suppressant, but actually what they want to eat. And anecdotally, an awful lot of people say they just don't want the junk food anymore. They do want to reach for something a bit more nutrient dense and better for them. Is there a terrible irony galloping across the horizon that actually it might be big farmer that sorts out the problems of big food in the end? Well, I want to be clear about these drugs.

There are some people from whom these drugs are literally a lifesaver. They are severely obese. They are at high risk of diabetes. They're finding a long list of health benefits from taking these drugs. So I'm not opposed to these drugs. At the same time, I happen to believe it's possible to live a healthy life without having to take these drugs for the rest of your life. The social cost of these drugs is tens of billions of dollars a year. And sadly, you know, we don't know necessarily what the long, all the long term effects of taking these drugs.

So for certain people, these drugs are absolutely amazing. For Hollywood actors who want to lose maybe an extra four pounds so that their, you know, their cheekbones are more prominent on screen, I don't know that these drugs are worth taking by people who really don't need them. One of the main themes of the book, we introduced these technology. that create problems, and then we find a new technology to solve them that creates different problems. And maybe there's a way as society, not just in the United States, but in the United Kingdom, that we can produce food that's healthy in a sustainable way and make sure that people have enough money to buy it and enough free time so that they can exercise.

and maybe we wouldn't need the pharma industry to solve problems that, you know, we did not have an obesity epidemic in the United States until the 1980s or in the United Kingdom. So these are recent problems that I think can be solved without having to rely on a new technology or on a powerful drug that maybe people don't need. Eric Schlosser and the republication via Penguin Books of Fast Food Nation has got an addendum at the end an after, I want to call it an afterthought

but it's not, it's an after ward the opposite of a forward, about Eric's thoughts on what's happened over the last 25 years. And it is quite shocking, Jane, that we're probably in a worse position now than we were back then because everything that Eric exposed was really bad. I mean, it wasn't a case of, oh, you know, are things,

are certain practices justified within slaughterhouses, mass abattoirs, mass dairy farms, mass meatpacking factories, they were just wrong. There was often child labour and a horrendous level of illness and loss of limb and all of that kind of stuff going on. So you couldn't ever argue that it was worth it. And it's kind of still there, 25 years on. It's not progress, really.

and our health hasn't made progress, completely the opposite. Our obesity levels are worse. Well, that was Eric Schlosser, and Fast Food Nation is out again now. That's correct. Jane and Fiatimes.com Radio is our email address. We love hearing from you. Yes, and you can be any age you like, and you can be wherever you like in the world. No restrictions.

Absolutely none. And also, we like to call in any interplanetary craft. Well. Yeah, no, you did. Come on, wouldn't it be great to hear from Patricia on Mars? I'll tell you what, I'll tell you where I will be going. See Ryan Gosling in space. Have you seen the posters?

Okay, darling, look forward to that review. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale.

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