Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Distracted by a couple of hippos having sex (with Matt Chorley)

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

Jane and Fi are back from Cheltenham Literature Festival and they have a lot of emails to get through! They tackle online dating, books they'd never return to and good customer service at Luton Airport. Plus, they're joined by Times Radio's very own Matt Chorley to discuss his brand new book 'Planes, Trains and Toilet Doors: 50 Places That Changed British Politics'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Kate Lee Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So we've already made some content. We've barely been in the studio for two and a half minutes. Very cold in the studio. It's very cold in Mariella's studio as well. We use everything as content, including your absolutely disgusting old banana. We put that on Instagram instagram we have done that haven't we yes it went on the insta jane and fee if you follow us on instagram if you don't why not

um yeah i mean i thought that if something rotted in a drawer in an office then it would stink yeah but it didn't but this thing has just been allowed to meet its end unloloved, uncared for. It's worth looking at because it looks a little bit like something that shouldn't be in the British Museum anymore. But what I really like about it is the banana's completely and utterly shriveled away. And by the way, sorry, this is the emergency banana that I kept in my drawer in my desk. It may actually, when did we move offices to that nicer one? About two or three months ago. OK, so I think it's been there since then.

The sticker on it has obviously just remained completely intact and then the banana behind it, it's a horrible thing. Have a look if you'd like to. Can I just do this email to start us off? Because we have just reiterated on the Insta what our book club choice is for this month. Sorry, I'm just being distracted by a screen showing a couple of hippos having sex. Where?

It's just there. What's that? Oh, hello. Oh, that was a good one. Sorry, it just came out of nowhere. Right, it's gone now. It's gone now. Thank God.

It's amazing what. Thank God. It's amazing what Talk TV puts on. We're trying to have a sensible conversation about a rotting banana and there's a couple of hippos going at it in our line of sight. Well, they're not in my line of sight. Well, they were in mine. In my line of sight is currently

a Keir starmer exclusive okay right it's the angle you approach these things from right so this comes from marina who says she was at a sydney writers festival last night and enjoyed an exceptional evening in the company of trent dalton who's the bloke who's written the book what we is reading for book club number three at the end of the talk i managed to unveil my way to the front of the book signing queue and asked him if he was aware that Boy Swallows Universe has been selected as this month's book club on Off Air, the immensely successful and internationally acclaimed podcast. Well, he was completely gobsmacked. He hasn't of our fellow no in brackets he's from brisbane

in joke for australians but he was flabbergasted that his book had been chosen and he couldn't believe that he had been granted such an honor so marina's advice to us is that we have to get trent on the program for a chat marina says he embodies all of the very best things that an interviewee needs to have he's as as garrulous as Geoffrey Archer. Oh, no. But even more charming than Ken Follett. How can that be? I can't believe that at all.

Marina says, I came away from the night telling my companion that I would have married him there and then if he'd asked. He's an interesting, affable, lovable, optimistic man. And she goes on to say, maybe he could be a late-in-life love treat for both of you two, as he was for me. Well, how old is he? I don't know. I think he's much, much younger than us.

Might come as a bit of a surprise to Trent then. It might. But we will try and get him on and we'll explain to him what Off Air the podcast is about. And thank you for mentioning that, actually. That's very kind of you, Marina. You're an agent out in the field. Yes yes and we're very grateful to you for all your hard work just muscling to the front there and getting in with someone it

takes us right back to the Cheltenham literature festival doesn't it we're already gearing up for next year's visit it was fortunate enough to be invited she said suddenly realizing that our contract has run out by then so you just don't know in like in showbiz careful of what you're promising you just don't know uh wasn't it lovely to be back in our own beds last night though so he had one night away it felt like it felt like a much longer time i don't know why there's a uh i'll try and find a real there was a really lovely email actually about someone's dad who had the same problem about beds not facing the right direction but you want to do your one first well and then we've got to talk about the photograph There was a really lovely email actually about someone's dad who had the same problem about beds not facing the right direction.

But do you want to do your one first? And then we've got to talk about the photograph of you with the enormous pepper pot. I just don't understand that. I genuinely don't recall ever posing with a pepper pot. And God knows I've done some stupid things. We asked last week, actually, we had an interview towards the end of our programme on Thursday,

I think it was, with Susanna Stephens about a hysterectomy and about the impact that a hysterectomy can have on you. I mean, not always, but in some cases. And this emailer says, Susanna is sadly correct. The current NHS guidance gives absolutely no cautionary words for childless women about to undergo this severe what she describes as the severely life limiting surgery and I say what she describes because there may well be people listening who are about to have a hysterectomy and the last thing I want to do is to worry anybody and I do know I really appreciate that some women really find the operation helpful and restorative it actually improves their quality of life.

But this correspondent goes on to say, the mental impact of my hysterectomy was absolutely overwhelming from the days after surgery and for years to follow. Pre-surgery, all I'd focused on was removing the horrendous physical pain. Post-surgery, I just recall being in a state of utter shock as to the suddenness and the total finality of my and-now-you-can-never-have-children status. That feeling remained with me, the worst decade being in my 30s when my friends were having children. Now, at the age of 55, the last time I had to deal with the recurring and trying question,

do you have children, was just four days ago. It took me many years to teach myself had to deal with the recurring and trying question, do you have children, was just four days ago. It took me many years to teach myself how to deal with that dreaded inquiry. What I find shocking about the current NHS guidance is that it offers absolutely no guidance at all for childless women. It doesn't even mention us. It doesn't even mention us. It simply states, some women who've not yet experienced the menopause may feel a sense of loss because they're no longer able to have children. Others may feel less womanly than before. The guidance makes no distinction between women who already have children and those who don't.

God, do you know, I find that phrase, may feel less womanly than before. Terrifying. Yes, it's not at all good, that phrase. I suppose they probably have had endless meetings about what to say. They haven't done enough, Jane. But I think you're right. I think they have done enough. Thank you for all the very interesting and informed emails on this subject. Jack says, let me just get this straight. I have so much to explain, she says, but in short, in 2009, I had a hysterectomy. I'm still recovering and I have

to use a disposable catheter to empty my bladder. Why did I agree to it? Because I tried ablation and more besides and fibroids meant I flooded without warning i'm a teacher and anyway it's somewhat awkward yeah i mean flooding is is a horrible menopausal symptom that i just no woman should have to live with the possibility of flooding i mean it doesn't matter what you do for a living but if you're a teacher you just you can't have that no it's it's horrendous can i just just pop in my tuppany worth on that though? There is some really, really good medication available now for very, very heavy periods and the possibility of flooding, which you can take as a prophylactic if you think that's going to happen to you. And it

is such a disabling thing. I would recommend that you go and ask your GP about it. I don't think it's talked about enough. I don't think people know that you can help yourself with heavy bleeding by a perfectly, as far as I know, a medication that has very, very few side effects. I would look into it. I'm sure there'll be a doctor listening who can put us right there. But Jack goes on to say that she would do it again, maybe, she says, but I'd insist on informed consent, not Dr. Google. I'd want a second opinion. I have written a book about it, she says. It's available on Amazon. It's called Totally Bladdered. I am now a patient expert at the NHS National Bladder and Bowel Project.

So clearly still very much living through that experience. And Jack, thank you very much for emailing us. We do appreciate it. There are others. I have to say that on the whole, obviously the people who have written in have had an experience similar to Susanna. And they have not had a great time post-hysterectomy. But clearly there are many, many women who do find it helpful. Yeah.

So I've just got, totally fair, not everyone has a terrible time afterwards. I'm in trouble, Jane. I've got into trouble with Louise, because Louise says, I was jogging along listening to your dulcet tones when Fee said Lark Rise to Candleford was the most boring book ever. I screeched to a halt.

How fast were you running? I begged to differ. It was my O-level English lit textbook in 1981 and my favourite book of all time. And we called our daughter, who's now 25, Flora, after Flora Thompson. I plead with you to reread this book and immerse yourself in the beauty and tranquility of late 19th century rural north oxfordshire you may be surprised and even change your mind uh thanks from a sweaty runner in hampshire heading off again now

so louise i'm sorry about that do you know what and i know that this means that you and i may not ever be best friends and i'm sad because I might miss out on a gorgeous opportunity. But I just don't want to. I don't want to read it again. OK. I don't ever want to read The Mayor of Casterbridge again. But it's really difficult, isn't it, when you properly upset somebody by calling a book that they love. They dearly, they hold close to their bosom. So I'm sorry, but it's not going to happen. And I'm also in trouble with somebody for being rude about foxes, Jane,

because I describe foxes as vermin. And I do take your point. Would you describe vermin as those creatures who pillage, poison, pollute and profit from trash in the world? That's definitely us. Some of them I would actually call vermin. But I'm not a big fan of the loving of foxes either. No.

We interviewed somebody, didn't we? Who was it we interviewed? Well, it's Zeb Soames. Oh, yes, that's right. He's a lovely chap. Yeah, absolutely lovely chap. Lovely chap, Jane. Sorry.

Marvellous. Something like a retired colonel. Essentially, I am. I don't think you've retired yet, love. He's written a series of books about Gaspar the fox, based on a lovely fox who he befriended in his North London townhouse. Right. Oh, yes, that's right. I remember you were laughing today because I'd

said what good experiences I'd had at Luton Airport. I don't know what it is about me, I just feel honour bound to credit people when I've had good service at the moment. Obviously there's been this fire in the car park at Luton Airport. But no, it makes a lot of difference to know it once was good.

I've flown in and out of Luton a number of times. No, not again. Not again. Always found it to be rather inefficient. Right, but obviously we were both stunned, weren't we? Simon Calder was our guest on the radio show and he said that there were no sprinklers in the car park. I know.

At an airport. At an airport. Quite a recently built car park. I know. At an airport. At an airport. Quite a recently built car park at an airport. So I didn't think that you were allowed to make any kind of a public building anymore without sprinklers. I thought it was just illegal to build something without sprinklers. Just completely bonkers. This is an interesting email and I wonder whether it'll resonate with other people listening. They say they were listening to Emma Gannon, who was talking to us last week. And that conversation explained to me why at the age of 55,

I am struggling to understand some of my younger staff members. We all have a boss, don't we? Somebody has got to be accountable, don't they? My personal struggle at the moment is whether to retire early on the final salary pension that I'm fortunate my first boss pushed me into back in the 80s. I manage nearly 100 people and it is, as you might imagine, stressful, enormously stressful at times. I cannot sleep properly as my to-do list keeps going around in my head. I've got high blood pressure that the doctors are struggling to bring down and my eczema is going mad. I think my body is trying to tell me something. I don't have children. I do have a lovely husband who earns

less than I do and we have a mortgage that won't be paid off until I'm 67. I think I want to walk out of my job now, take that early pension and find a lower paid, lower stress job. I worry that I'd be better to keep working to take the higher pension I could buy or that I won't find a job and then we struggle or that I just get bored with a lower level job. My pension value now is enough to allow me to keep paying the mortgage thankfully. Do any of your listeners have any advice? I can't be the only one feeling like this. Well if you're having just a miserable time and I wonder whether that person if they do jack in the job that's making them feel so wretched and they might actually find that opportunities do open up better opportunities than they might expect totally so when I read that email

and I'm glad that that you've read it out I I would be amazed if anybody says stay in the job that's making you ill. And I don't want to over-personalise this, but the funeral that I went to the other day, Jane, was an old friend from university who died too young. And there wasn't a single person in that church, and there was a really wonderful, wonderful turnout for him because he was such a nice guy uh who would answer that email by saying stay doing something that's making you stressed

and don't go in search of new opportunities to make you happy um and it's not for me to you know to to talk any more uh about him that would be rude in case other friends are listening. But life is short. It is. Just find something else. And Jane's absolutely right. You know, if you're okay financially, then you might find all kinds of other things

that you like doing more or that you just are okay to do. Well, her pension's all right, so she's got 12 years to pay off the mortgage, which she can do on the pension. I think it's a no-brainer, this. I think it's a total no-brainer. I would go for it. And also, you will find something else. I bet you do.

You might just feel significantly weller and happier. That can't be bad either. And can I just say, I have never managed anybody. Have you ever managed anybody? No. And it's a difficult thing, which is why neither of us has ever done it. What we want to do, certainly what I want to do, is just sit here and carp. I don't want to take responsibility for anybody. And I've taken the easy way out in that respect um and i hugely admire genuinely those people who do take responsibility this this person has got well they're looking after a hundred a hundred people it's not easy have you managed jane garvey would

you like to get in there is a helpline action line number at the end of this podcast but yes i'd just say don't don't sit on that one for too long if it's making you unwell what's the point what what would be the point so i would embrace every single new opportunity and uh you know you're also actually lucky if you can pay your mortgage off with your pension and honestly um with the news the way it is at the moment, I just think anybody who's wrestling with that sort of decision... Seize the day. Seize the day. Thank you, lucky stars. And go off into the sunset.

Let us know what you do next. And please do let us know. We'd be intrigued to know. I found it. Mary Kennedy said, I had to email when I heard you say that you couldn't sleep properly if your bed is facing the wrong way. We mocked our dad, Podrick, for years as he said he was discombobulated

or experienced, and I'm so sorry if I get this wrong, Foydenmara? Can you tap into your Irish roots for that? Is it something to do with the sea? I don't know. As he referred to it in Gaelic, if his bed wasn't properly aligned. It had to be positioned north to south or he wouldn't sleep well. His mum, my grandmother, was the same.

Our childhood home vexed him for the 30 plus years we lived there as his bed was in the wrong position. He died in April aged 98 and your mention of bed placements reminded me of my lovely dad and his many foibles which in later years focused around recycling but that's an email for another day mary it's an email we want to receive i think we do want to we really want to receive that and thank you for getting in touch it's funny isn't it how uh just tiny things remind you of people who've gone and who would have known that

a conversation about beds facing the wrong way uh you know just brought back some so it had to be north south had to be north south right okay i'm gonna i'm gonna use the what do you call it on your phone compass that's it tonight to find out whether i'm so mine has to face where the sun rises so it's got to face east well that's no that's just because that's how i'm used to it. That's because I'm used to that at home. So that's what I find weird when I go somewhere else and it's not facing that way. I can just tell, Jane. I can tell.

Right. My internal compass tells me it's wrong. Right. Okay. Who'd want to go see with Fee? Very few people, I suspect. Yes, OK. Thank you very much for all of your comments about pegs.

We are so informed about pegs. And I don't want to start another thing too soon, but Hannah says, while we're on pegs, can I mention bag clips now? Not yet. Well, it's funny, because when we were in cheltenham i went to the lakeland store did you did you go in no you didn't tell me you were going to the lakeland store well i was i was actually and to be honest i thought i'd be i'd come out staggering

out with loads of purchases um but i i kind of kept a firm a firm grip on the Garby purse, which, as you know, doesn't come out very often. But there were a couple of, you know, those things you can have to cover jars, you know, or yoghurt pots. Yes, lids. That's what they're called, they're called lids, yes. But it's weird because sometimes you'll get yoghurt that only has that very flimsy lid. The foil thing.

Yeah. I'm with you on that. What you're meant to do is just kind of try and stick it back down afterwards. I don't know, which you never do, do you? So you bought some disposable, no, some reusable lids. No, this anecdote is so interesting. I just considered it.

I walked away. Oh. Where are the mounting hippos when you need them? It wasn't a very long congress, that actually. No, no. Hippo fun. Can I throw this out to our lovely listeners? I wondered, this comes from Sarah, I wondered if you could give me some advice on the dating front because I've

run out of ideas. Online dating is just dire. 50% of matches instantly unlatch. 25% of them want to share nasty pictures. And some of you actually get to meet. Of these, 50% will cancel shortly before or just not turn up. And the ones who do

turn out to mostly have some serious personality issues she goes on to say i've signed up to many courses dim sum bread pizza macaron making butchery whittling welding basic plumbing and tiling has has she really done all of them yes okay so she's such a catch yes she really is and while they've all been fun it's also mostly been women my work is mostly women and my friends single males are single for good reason and there's a facepalm emoji please help right so we're going to chuck it out because i think that is uh something our listeners will be able to help you about it would be nice to

hear stories of where people have met yeah and top tips on filtering out these serious personality issues i'm in in the spirit of transparency, everything Sarah has said there is why I just don't do it. It just sounds such a tough place. And a bit like Shirley Ballas talking about the world of professional dance. I just think that's exactly what I fear about the online dating world.

All of that. And the courses are a bit different. Because it's interesting, when online dating fails, as it that. And the courses are a bit different. Because it's interesting, when online dating fails, as it clearly has done for our correspondent, often you are told, oh, well, you need to go on a course. Go on a course.

She has. Yep. And it's awful of women who've gone on a course. Yeah. So, you know, absolute sympathy there. Yeah. But I think there are some little,

not tricks, because that sounds too kind of manipulative. I think there are some little not tricks because that sounds too kind of manipulative I think there are ways that you can use online dating that do that can help you filter out the absolute weirdos and stuff well let's see what we've got two things we're throwing out that's one of them and the other one is the advice for the person who's stuck in a job that's making them feel really rank but they could afford not to do it yeah probably isn't a long one that one because we all know what we think about that we will welcome hearing uh lots of people's experiences

and views and stuff like that and can i just say and there's no way of saying this without sounding really smug but i did meet somebody really nice online i was hoping you'd say that eventually yes carry on yeah no i did but did. But I had exactly that experience beforehand. And I had really got to that point where I just thought, just what is going on? But I also, I did meet a couple of really interesting men, no sparks or anything like that. I went on some terrible dates, Jenny. I have heard about some of them, to be fair. When you say no sparks, what's wrong with electricians? I would absolutely have loved to meet a spark. But anyway, I did meet somebody really lovely

who was as trepidatious as being online. I think that's the key, isn't it? As I was as well. So more tales from that corner, I think, will emerge. Can we have more encouraging tales, please? I think what we don't need is a load of people telling us about their really shit dates. Because that's not going to encourage me or our correspondent there. No, but also I think you learn the language of the online dating sites.

And that's well worth knowing. And I mean, seriously, Janeane anybody who enjoys a long walk and a country pub lunch swipe why oh it's just so boring that means that means someone who doesn't know what to do with a weekend and i bet i bet for every person who has literally just come in from a nice long walk and a long country lunch pub. There is 765,323 who've never done that but just think it sounds good. What about good sense of humour? Country pubs at Sunday lunchtimes are not full of single people.

No, they're full of families having a really crap time. Exactly. Matthew Chorley, have we moved on? We're ready to go with this. matthew chordy is our big guest we could just interview him about his astoundingly well awarded career when i was reading this out earlier jane laughed at this bit as a radio host which has seen him win nearly every award going in the industry and he really has jane i know he has he started out in local journalism in taunton moved moved into the big time with the Press Association, the Mail Online, Independent on Sunday,

and then the Times, and here he is now, launching himself onto the British public with his amusing Christmas offering. It's called Planes, Trains and Toilet Doors, 50 Places That Change British Politics. We talked to him earlier today, and he wasn't really a fan of being on the other side of the desk. I'm a bit trepidatious. Don't be trepidatious. Why would you be trepidatious? I fan of being on the other side of the desk i'm a bit trepidatious don't be trepidatious why would you be trepidatious i don't like being on

this side of the desk i'm not in control i bet you don't especially facing two acerbic older women don't laugh there's no need to do that why weren't you on your own program today because i was on a secret mission which will you?..which will become clear in the coming weeks. OK. It's a big launch thing out of my show, which I can't tell you about. OK. Well, that's got the interview off to a rip-roaring start.

It's going to be very exciting. It will be good. Yeah. It was fun. Yes, no, I'm sure it will be. I'm sure it will be. So, this is our chance to talk to you about being you and then talk to you about your book.

Mm-hm. Can we start, though? What's your first political memory? Everybody has one, the moment that politics enters your childhood world. I think probably the fall of Margaret Thatcher. I remember that being on the telly a lot. That's what I've been there about seven, seven, six, seven.

I think I remember the Berlin Wall, but the trouble is with a lot of these things, the newsreels are repeated so much you forget, you know, are you misremembering that you remember seeing it the first time or repeated later on? Yes, you're seeing it when it's referenced in something else. But I suppose there was definitely that thing

which I don't think, well, certainly not in our house, the children don't have these days, of there only being the news on. And so if you wanted to watch the telly rather than stare at a wall then you had to you know watch what was on the telly you watch the news and you sort of you know and particularly around that sort of time the early 90s and the state of the economy and what was going on in budgets there's definitely that sense of like having the telly on to see what was happening in the news and um when do you think you really got the political bug where it became a

source of of you know, real proper fascination? Yeah, it's weird because I didn't... I always wanted to be a journalist from seven or eight. We used to get the Mirror, the Daily Mirror in the house, and then we switched to the Western Daily Press, local regional newspaper. But I didn't know any journalists. My dad's a plumber, you know, most of my family are farmers.

I'd start newspapers at primary school and then at secondary school and then at college to the constant irritation of everyone else. But I don't really know where it came from. And although I was interested in politics, I don't think I thought someone from the Somerset levels would end up working in Parliament. So I thought, actually, you know,

there's a good job to be done working on regional papers. That's sort of what I set my sights on. So what fascinates you about it? About politics? Yes. Is it the kind of the backbiting and the intrigue? Is it the possibility for real change through a process? Which bit? I think the thing... This is going to sound pompous. Go for it. Which bitch?

I think the thing... This is going to sound pompous. Go for it. I just think it's really important. And I hope that what I do now on the radio and what I've done previously with Right Red Box and all that hooks more people into it and understand what's going on. Because they should understand what's going on. I really hate to say, oh, politics isn't for me.

And then proceed to talk about how there's potholes outside their house or, you know, their kidsotholes outside their house or you know their kids schools rubbish or you know like all of that is politics so i think the pompous i mean i also just love it and i think the characters are entertaining and i suppose it's a bit like if you're a football reporter you just get into the soap opera on and off the pitch so it's definitely an element of that but my high-minded explanation is i think it's really important and i think most politicians most of the time are trying to do the right thing their big problem is that the right thing over here will also clash with what would have been the right thing over there and they get to pick on that but yeah that's my

i want people i want people to feel like politics is for them where do you think we are now in our political world? So, Sir Keir Starmer said yesterday, it was just a tiny line in the speech, it's by no means the biggest headline, but that thing about how some people really do want and are entitled to have politics go to the back of their lives, you know, to remove itself from that foreground. But is it possible for that ever to happen? I mean, if, you know, if we would say that our political landscape is like a disco, if you put on a great big banging track, you get everybody up on the dance floor, you can't then play an album of panpike music

afterwards. And we've had this extraordinary time both here in America, in Russia, these strongmen, this enormous volume of politics, does it ever really go back down? I think it would be good if it did. I think it would be good for the public's mental health. It's not normal for people to have... Brexit is what did it, I think. First of all, it happened in Scotland

with the Scottish referendum there where every single person in Scotland was forced to take a position on something. Lots of them having consciously not taken a position, because you can, you know, that's the default setting of everyone. And then the same thing then happened in the rest of the UK with Brexit. And that entire period from 2016, basically to 2019, was completely ridiculous, where everyone was radicalised, and nothing happened. When you look back on that period, nothing happened. The Theresa may premiership was totally

pointless in that we were no better off by the end of it than we were at the beginning of it and yet although she was slightly worse off because she had fewer mps but we felt that every single day it was critical we had to get the gazebos on college green and fire up you know get laura kunzberg in a helicopter and oh you won't believe what's happening oh it's so crazy isn't it politics and now there's a now there's actually now a whole generation of political journalists completely addicted to that. They're convinced that everything must at all times be, you know, Brexit, late-night votes and Saturday sittings and promulgation

and general elections, and it just isn't. And we all just need to sort of calm down and zoom out for it. So I think he's completely right. And actually, and people will think this is ridiculous to say, if it was all a bit less radicalised, politicians might end up making slightly better decisions for, you know, now the new phrase is the long term, but actually, you know, beyond tomorrow,

because they might actually get on and do their jobs rather than constantly fretting about what somebody's going to say on College Green or say on Twitter or a whole news cycle which is just taken up with, sort of faux outrage. But hasn't that state of chaos meant that the provocateurs just will thrive, they will, you know, find that space and the people who have now got a kind of void and a vacuum in their life, I mean, we have seen

what they've started to do. It's deeply unpleasant. It's quite often way off to the far right and it's really nasty. But it's, you know, there is a space in our world for that now, massively. I mean, it's interesting because given all the hullabaloo of the last, you know, both Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn

were, you know, very different lots of ways, but of a particular type that generated really passionate reactions, pro and anti from their supporters the same as to a brexit we have now got a situation in kirsten and rishi sunak and they're both much straighter they would both i think call the other one essentially a decent person who you know is making decisions they might say you're wrong about that but they you know they want and they do question each other's integrity in the same way and so it will be very interesting having a general election where

force in that tone I mean it's interesting what happened over the party conferences where now Rishi Sinek having played the one the steady as you go candidate now wants to be the change candidate while the change candidate is trying to tell you in Keir Starmer's trying to tell you it's just steady as you go and I'm not going to start the horses

but I think your point about Keir Starmer saying that there should be just less politics in people's lives, they want to know that stuff is being run properly in their interest, but they don't need to hear about it the whole time and they don't need to hear everyone arguing about it the whole time and forcing you to take positions constantly on absolutely everything. So do you think some of those political journalists that you think actually just became a bit too high on life when things were crazy do you think they might now be too keen to conjure up a controversy

out of nothing yeah i think it would be i hope none of them are listening i think it'd be better if most of the lobby didn't tweet really i think it would be better if senior broadcast political editors tweeted less because they are market moving in their oh I'm just hearing this from one source not questioning the motivation of the person who's told them that and there's a whole hour goes on everyone else starts to do I'm hearing this too I'm hearing this too

but it's often the same person or often it's from someone else in government who's read it on Twitter who's then passing off as their own to make themselves terribly important yeah and then it makes news night look thoroughly exciting on a day that's actually been quite yeah there's nothing that's happened and it's the over word with you yeah over used word of unprecedented which uh so precedented it's just not true and actually it's one you know i thought when i was writing the book

the thing that i was going to learn from it was that politics has happened in lots of funny places isn't that funny and actually the thing i discovered was everything has happened before literally everything's happened before often better you know when we talk oh it's an extraordinary reshuffle nobody died during the middle of the reshuffle as as has happened you know um uh and so yeah i think i think it would be better if everyone just calmed down everyone calm down britain but I do love your focus groups on your show. And this is where you talk to swinging voters, potentially shifting. Yeah, it varies. But yeah, most of the time they're sort of,

well, they tend to be just normal members of the public. I was going to say, lest we forget, people who couldn't tell you who the Shadow Chancellor was, who got absolutely next to no interest. And Stig and Asma were talking about this this morning on Times Radio Breakfast, when they were asking people in Liverpool how many members of the Shadow Cabinet they knew.

And they did know about Sir Keir Starmer and one or two people knew that Angela Rayner had very distinctive hair. And that was about it. I know, but I think where I might disagree with others is I don't think that's a bad thing. If people knew what Lisa Nandy and Hilary Benn were doing, that would be a bad thing for all concerned. You know, that's an entirely normal thing,

people going about their daily lives not concerning themselves with the whereabouts of Bridget Philipson. I'm with you on that, actually, but we attach enormous kind of credence, don't we, to knowledge about politics, which isn't necessarily understanding. And actually, what's interesting is with the focus groups, in fact, we're doing one tonight, so actually, what's interesting is with the focus groups, in fact, we're doing one tonight,

so we're going to have one on the show tomorrow, asking what, if anything, have you noticed from the party conferences? And often they don't know who the individuals are. The analysis of ordinary people is really smart. They can cut right to the nub of what's the matter with that person, or why don't they just do this, or I'm just really feeling this about that policy. It's really smart.

And actually what's brilliant is every time we do it, some of our much cherished Times Radio listeners get in touch and say, where do you find these morons? How can they not know that Thangam Debenair's got a new job? And, you know, we love those people. That's why they listen to Times Radio, because we do a lot of politics

and they like to keep across current affairs. I think it's really important for us as presenters, but also for our uber-engaged listeners to remember that most people are not like that. Yeah. We will come back and talk more specifically about your Christmas offering. We are in conversation with Matt Chorley this afternoon.

You sound like a very large turkey. Well, some people have said that. Not at all. I'm afraid you walked into that one. Let's hope it's not. A little bit of inbreeding is going on here at Times Radio, but in a very worthy and entertaining cause because Matt's new book, first book in fact,

is called Planes, Trains and Toilet Doors, 50 Places That Changed British Politics. So it's a great title, but it also does really explain what's inside the book, doesn't it? So I don't need to ask you. No, it's very straightforward. It is a collection of places.

Yeah. But it goes back in a bit of history and lots of things. Yeah, so that getting to 50 were just places that I'd been to recently. It's tricky. It was hard, so I ended up going quite a long way back. Fair enough.

One of the places that you revisit is the helipad at the Don Valley Bowl in Sheffield, the precise date being Wednesday 1st April 1992. Now, why is that important? So this was the Sheffield rally ahead of the 1992 election about a week before the 1992 election and it was basically the Labour Party being led by Neil Kinnock were so confident of winning the 1992 election beating John Major they held a victory rally a mere week before their victory or as it, not. And he arrives in a red helicopter that lands on the field outside the Don Valley Bowl.

And all of this is projected onto big screens while inside, thousands of Labour people who've been bussed in from all around are watching, essentially, I think it's the closest we've ever got to a full-blown American style ticker tape parade the shadow cabinet are led in as the the the next government of Britain there are people playing musical instruments there is um what's his name from uh uh simply read Mick Hocknell

appears via video link filling in his postal vote singing something got me started while praising the prospect of a Labour government investing in skills. It's a terrifying image. It goes on and on and I've re-watched loads of footage from it and just when you think it can't get weirder, up pops Alan Rickman and there's Emma Thompson and there's someone from everyone

there's an opera singer, there's a brass band they've got the full spectrum covered and it's where famously Neil Kinnockett gets up finally gets up onto the the podium and declares we're all right although he insists there's a big argument what he actually said he thinks he says well all right which is from an old skiffle record uh apparently but it gave the impression that uh we're all right're going to win, we've got this one in the bag, it's all good. And actually he says, back

then people reported it as being all quite sensible. It was only afterwards people said it was a bad idea. That's not true. I've looked at lots of newspaper cuts at the time. Even the front page of the Guardian said it was a bit much. And subsequently, obviously lots of people said, well maybe that's why they lost the election. It was sort of hubris and they got

carried away. I actually think, in terms of how I think it changed politics, I don't think it probably made that much difference. I think it turned out that probably the polls were wrong all along. I think the thing it did was stopped our slide towards the Americanisation of political events. But also, don't you think it has changed subsequent Labour speeches? And Sir Keir Starmer's speech had to stay the right side

of what happened there, didn't it? Yeah, exactly right. It shaped that. Even though the polls are so massive. Exactly right. No-one wants to fall into that trap and no-one wants to have all the balloons and, you know... The worst we get these days is sort of five people with a T-shirt over their shirt and tie holding a placard they've just been given by central office.

And that's it. The Tory party conferences, you know, a couple of weeks ago, they were all given their signs because the last thing we want is anything spontaneous happening. So I think, yeah, the fact that we haven't gone full-blown sort of America, you know, the Republican and Democratic conventions are insane. So I think that's how it changed politics, rather than actually changing the outcome of the election. But you're completely right that every

Labour, Labour leaders in particular, I think all party leaders, don't want anyone saying it's like the Sheffield rally, because whether or not it lost in the election, that's the perception. You don't want to go down that road. Yeah. Have you been to some of those big American rallies? No. No. Would you like to go? Does American politics interest you?

A bit. Not as much as some other political journalists who think that knowing the ins and outs of Orange County North... Super Tuesday. Yeah, Super Tuesday and all of that is, you know, the way to carry on. You don't want to be stuck at the Christmas party with the Super Tuesday news. Do you know what? As soon as anyone mentions a caucus, I'm off. Absolutely off. Right, shall we pick another one?

I really, really love the first line into, it's number nine in your 50 places, and we're in Margaret Thatcher's bathroom in Brighton, and you say, a piece of paper saved Margaret Thatcher's life. Yeah, I was quite surprised, actually, how many things happened in bathrooms, which had an impact on politics.

So the piece of paper, so this was in the October 1984, the Tory party conference was happening in Brighton. Margaret Thatcher had been sort of going around glad-handing and all that, but actually really fretting about her speech, every spare moment she got. She was working on her speech and was stayed up in her room until sort of two o'clock in the morning,

was about to go to bed, she finally sent her sort of secretaries off, and then Robin Butler, who was her principal private secretary, said, oh, just before you go to bed, just before you head off into the bathroom, she's got one more bit of paper for you to look at, which I think was something to do with Sheffield Flower Festival or something. Something pretty innocuous.

But she sort of turned and walked back into the suite at the moment that the IRA bomb went off in the hotel. And it had she been in the bathroom, if you look at the photos of the bathroom, there was broken glass everywhere and the ceiling had come in. And it is incredible just how close the IRA got to killing the Prime Minister

and actually large numbers of the Cabinet. And it was all basically luck. Where the bomb had been planted higher up in a room higher up, the prime minister and actually large numbers of the cabinet and it was all basically luck the the where the bomb had been planted higher up in the in a room higher up if the chimney stack had just dropped the other way it would have that would have completely changed the course of of political history and i think sometimes we forget the counter because something didn't happen because they didn't you know clearly there was four or five people did die but not you know a senior member of the government in uh in margaret thatcher and had that happened everything that happened afterwards would have been completely different yeah so we were listening obviously to

sakir starmer's speech gosh he's getting a lot of mentions today isn't he we must mention something from rishi sunak's world in a second uh we were listening listening yesterday when the protester came on stage and because, actually because we couldn't see the pictures, we were, we both had the sudden thought, what has happened? I was exactly the same as you. Might it be the very worst thing that's happened? I was driving home and I was listening on the radio exactly the same as you and that

you know, there's bloke shouting and then sort of the thud and then the silence and you just don't know what's what's happened. No, and it did strike me that that's still the silence. You just don't know what's happened. No, and it did strike me that that is still the power of radio, isn't it? You are absolutely in a moment. And when I saw the pictures, it didn't mean as much at all because it's Blake there with Glitter and you think, oh, you know, he's a bit of a twit.

Can I do just one more? And then I'm sure Jane has got a couple that she wants to flag up. Nick Ryden's Toilet in Edinburgh. Yeah, so this is the answer to planes, trains and toilet doors. So when I first started thinking... Actually, the book basically was borne out by my listeners because there was an English Heritage Press release and said it had a 20% increase in visitors to Barnard Castle

after Dominic Cummings went there, which is a lot of people walking around making eye-tice jokes. There's nothing there, there's not a statue or anything. And so we started talking on the show about other places that political nerds might go on holiday. And then it sort of spawned into the idea of doing the book. And whenever I mentioned to anyone, they said, oh, you must be doing Granita.

You must be doing Granita. It's the restaurant in North London where Tony Blair and Gordon Brown went and struck their deal. Although anyone involved in it says that that's not where they struck the deal at all. It was basically a sort of Tony Blair showing off thing off thing taking gordon brown to a restaurant slightly trendy north london restaurant where uh he would feel like a fish out of water but at that point they'd already agreed what was happening and uh according to other people in the restaurant at the time there's much more fuss about the fact that um susan tully who played michelle from eastenders

was in the restaurant rather than gordon brown fair enough she's now a great tv director well yeah yeah well there she was she was. She was there, but unwittingly when history turned out wasn't being made because after John Smith died in 1994, all the conversations that Gordon Brown and Tony Blair had were in Scotland because there were, you know, there were ways for the funeral and all that sort of thing.

And you could tell which way the wind was blowing because all the meetings happened in the houses of friends of Tony Blair. So it was like, do you have another chat about who's going to run for leader in my friend Nick's house? So they go to his friend Nick's house. Nick is a property developer who's doing up his house. He leaves them with a bottle of whiskey and a takeaway menu

and says, I'll go to the pub and let me know when you're done. So they're having the chat and Gordon goes to the bathroom and Tony Blair is sitting there and he waits and he waits and he waits and he waits. And eventually the landline starts ringing because it's 1994. And the answering machine kicks in and Tony Blair thinks, well, not my house,

I'd just let the answering machine take it. So he says, all right, it's Nick, you know, leave your message. And then this voice comes booming out of the answering machine. Tony, it's Gordon. I'm locked in the toilet. And Gordon Brown was locked in the toilet. And he'd got a mobile phone, but Tony Blair didn't.

Tony Blair didn't have one until he left Downing Street in 2007. And so Gordon Brown had been locked in the toilet for 15 minutes phoning anyone he could think of to try and get the number... Of the landline. Of the landline. That's brilliant. And unlike Grenita, Tony Blair doesn't mention Grenita at all in his memoirs,

both Gordon Browns, one of the few things they agree on, both Gordon Brown and Tony Blair tell this story in their memoirs. gordon bryant's one of the few things they agree on both gordon bryant and tony blair tell this story in their memoirs and tony but in tony blair's version he says he goes upstairs to relieve him from the bathroom and says i'll only let you out if you pull out of the leadership race and that night was the night that they agreed that tony blair was going to go for the leadership gordon brown would step back but they would sort of go together he would be Chancellor. And that was how history was made. It's just superb. It's a wonderful, wonderful anecdote. I don't know where to turn,

because I want you to talk about William Hoskisson, but I think that's a bit nerdy and a little bit niche, although he was Britain's first ever rail victim. Yes, he was a former cabinet minister. On the first steam train going from Liverpool to Manchester, the train stopped to refuel. He got out to go and have a chinwag with the Duke of Wellington to hope to get back in the cabinet.

He accidentally got run over by Stevenson's rocket. There was an argument on the train about whether or not to continue this journey on to Manchester. The Prime Minister thought they should cancel it. The railwayman thought it would be terrible PR for the railways if they cancelled. So they carried on. And actually, he's credited with making a success

of the railways because far more people heard about this newfangled thing. Thanks to his death. Thanks to his death. There you go. Also, you bring horribly back to life just the dizzying and frankly rather triggering episode of Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng. He finds out he's being fired on the A4,

travelling up the Great West Road in the Chiswick area of West London. But also, it was that press conference that Liz Truss gave where she only answered four questions. Slightly spaced out. I mean, that was... They were troubling times, weren't they?

Yes. And there we have it. There's no getting away from it. I mean, I think, because everyone says all politics is mad and I think the system worked. The system worked with Boris Johnson. You know, he was found out

and he was removed. The system worked with Liz Truss. Do you ever... She out and he was removed. The system worked with Liz Truss. She went very quickly. Yeah. Do you ever miss Mr Johnson at all? No. Genuinely? Because he did provide day after day of content.

I'm amazed that you've asked that. Because it's usually a terribly triggering thing for you. You don't stand outside for ten minutes. Which is actually the weird thing. When I was doing the stand-up shows and the columns and people said I bet you love Bob Bolshdon.

No, it's really hard to write a joke about him because he was the living joke. Planes, trains and toilet doors. 50 places that change British politics

is out tomorrow. And can we be genuine just for a second? This is a great Christmas gift for somebody who likes politics. Not, you know,

not in a... They don't just... they don't stay up for news night. But, you know, they just, they like to dip their toe into, I don't know, just the quirks of our wonderful political history. There's some cracking stories in there. And they're very well told. And you can just do a couple of different chapters every evening or, you know, whenever it is that you're reading it. And it's a lovely book. It's beautifully illustrated. And, you know whenever it is that you're reading it and it's a lovely book it's beautifully illustrated and you know matt's funny you can write funny stuff as well as knowing all this all the facts it's quite funny i don't want to encourage you

okay you're right yeah you're right okay it's definitely quite funny right yes um we love hearing from you all jane and fee time stop radio i don't know why I paused so long there. And you can follow us on the Insta and we will put up more kind of reminders about the Book Club book on Insta. And if you want to see my dried banana, that's where you should go.

If you want to see a shriveled banana, that's where you need to go. Good evening. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Phi Graver. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house

or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know so silly. Money to bank. I know, ladies. A lady listener.

I know, sorry.