Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Don't hide your light under a bushel...

Episode Date: November 1, 2023

Jane's imagining a poodle in glasses reading the paper, and Fi's wondering what counts as an outdoor Christmas decoration.They're joined by researcher and writer William Viney, to talk about his book 'Twinkind: The Singular Significance of Twins'.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Well, tonight, we need to move a little quicker than we did last night.

Last night's very spooky edition, the Halloween edition of Off Air, was very long. Very frightening, but very, very long. Do you know what? It saw me into my, the restaurant that I booked for dinner absolutely perfectly, though. Oh, did it? Okay. Well, then, that's all that matters.

That is all that matters, Jane. Did you have a starter? No, no. We kind of shared one of the, you know sometimes when the menu is really complicated, and it was an Italian restaurant, obviously not complicated if you are Italian, but complicated for me.

The preemie, antipasti, secondi, secondo, or whatever it is. I just don't really know what size anything's going to come in. So it's best to say, well, just share one of those. And then it comes, it's just like one tiny mouthful each. They think, what's wrong with these weirdos? Anyway, it was nice, but I can't do that again, Jo. I can't go out on a Tuesday night.

It's absolute madness, exhausted today, absolutely dreadful. Well, you've done terribly well. But you've got a charitable function to go to this evening. Darling, the work that you put into society is marvellous. I commend you for it, and we must be hot to trot. Yes. So that you can get to, is it a posh club? we're not talking any more about it

what I do in posh clubs on Wednesday nights is up to me don't hide your light under a bushel it's a very well established routine that's been earning me quite a little bit of additional cash over the years I'm available for Christmas bookings, if you don't know. I love this, or rather I hate it.

It's the John Lewis announcement. It's a prediction for the festive season from John Lewis. Two trees in homes, this chic-mas, John Lewis predicts. I can't stand that kind of thing. Well, it's quite... Let's plant a seed in people's minds that they need both a turkey and a goose. It's that kind of thing, isn't it?

It's like the press release every year from the National Butter Council, headlined, Butter is good for you. So we need two trees, or we're all going to have two trees. The massively... Well, actually, is it successful? John Lewis?

No, it's very hard to tell. John Lewis is predicting that this Christmas could see the rise of what he calls two tree households. The retailer says that despite the cost of living crisis, more homes than normal will be buying and erecting two Christmas trees. And that there's been a 96% increase in the sale of outdoor decorations. What? Well, that's because only one person was buying them last year.

Yeah, and now somebody else is joining in. That's incredible. 96% increase in the sale of outdoor decorations. So they're the people that have the flashing Santas illuminated from, well, basically today, 1st of November. It's all very old, isn't it? No. One tree's enough.

I don't think it is, actually, Jane. I think what John Lewis means is the Christmas wreath, and that's quite a new thing, and maybe some Christmas lanterns outside and stuff like that. I don't think John Lewis is selling the massive Santa rides off into the sunset. No, I don't think it is. Okay, right. Well, I'm glad to hear it

because they are quite a sophisticated store, aren't they? Much appreciated by me over the years. Will you have two trees? No. Okay. Every single year I say, can't we just get an artificial one this year? And the answer is always no.

And so, you know, know give in get the real thing love it to bits for about three or four days i really do uh and then it starts to look a bit tatty the needles start to drop the smell goes it's all a bit crap isn't it oh i love yeah absolutely um very happy christmas to you yes indeed. Now, what was I going to say? Oh, yes, twins is our subject today because our big guest is the author, William Viney, who is himself an identical twin, and he's written a book called Twin Kind. And this email came in actually from Elizabeth, who says, I had two delightful girls. I then found myself pregnant again. And I knew that there were two babies this time. I also knew they were identical.

Therefore, the end result could have been four girls. I was overjoyed to give birth very easily and quickly to two gorgeous boys. My dreams had come true. Bearing in mind this was before the days of gender reveal or the trend to find out the baby sex in advance of the birth. However, this meant, listen to this, I had four children under three and a half. There were just 17 months between my second child and the boys. In other words, three of them were in nappies. It was the best time of my life and I loved every moment until I needed to return to work. A couple of interesting facts. I never ever refer to my boys as twins.

They've always had their own identity. At playgroup, the boys attended on separate days, but on the annual coach trip, both rocked up to the amazement of bemused three-year-olds who had played with them individually, saying, why are there two of them? Oh, that's really... that's adorable. That is so much toddler action though isn't it in a household

medals galore sent over to you this one comes from Kat who's living near Twyford in Hampshire lovely lovely lovely part of the world obviously Kat and she wanted to talk about dogs because she really enjoyed the interview with Claire Balding and actually there are still quite a few emails coming in about

that and I completely felt the part about losing Archie and archie was claire and alice's much much loved dog pet grief for me was so raw and deep we had to make that decision too for our very unwell much loved family king charles spaniel hattie two years ago and it was beyond heartbreaking i still feel it today claire and alice were also talking about getting a dog one day again and toy schnauzers possibly and this is Mabel our just one year old schnoodle

that's a toy poodle and a miniature schnauzer mix. She's intelligent, crazy and a complete pain in my arse but everybody absolutely loves her. She has got a lovely face. If you hadn't said that she is a complete pain in the arse, I would have been able to tell that from the picture.

She just looks like trouble in miniature form. But I do love all this portmanteauism of the dogs that have bred together. It's so funny, isn't it, just trying to work out from the name. Some of them are obvious, like the, you you know the schnoodle and the labradoodle but sometimes in the park when someone says oh yes that's a mix between a husky and a jack russell and they've called it a hustle or something like that so i don't i don't think that's really a word is it are these pairings are they um legit well no no well No, well, they're not, are they? So how are they put together in the hope that they will mate? I don't really understand that.

Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes if you are trying to breed a certain type of dog, like a schnoodle or elaborate doodle, then you're going to do that. But your random park love, which sometimes takes place between ridiculously inappropriate dogs so you will see just a tiny tiny little dash and just having a go an absolute love affair with an you know enormous i was going to say german shepherd but that's really hard to imagine that wouldn't happen but it's just so weird i mean how does how does that happen? But it does happen. Claire did say at one point that some dogs are more intelligent, some types of dog are more intelligent than others,

and poodles are really intelligent. And literally at that point, I suddenly had an image of a poodle wearing glasses and reading a newspaper. And, of course, you never see that. So how do we know that poodles are really intelligent? Because you can train them, and they respond to more than your average dog. Nancy just responds to food, her own name, and that's about it actually. I mean, she's beautiful, absolutely beautiful, but greyhounds aren't known for their immense intelligence. No, but do your cats know their name?

Names? No, I don't think so. Oh, really? Okay. No. That's a good question. I'll try that out tonight. Fun times, kids. I tell you what.

Another gala evening, Shaglover. Pam is now in Litchfield, but formerly came from Physakaly, which is a part of Liverpool. Bless you. Physakaly? It does sound like that. Fazakali Hospital is now renamed Aintree Hospital.

But it was initially, and actually it's a place where you sort of long for something to happen because then newsreaders will get it wrong and call it Fazakali, as I heard a number of times over the years. But it's Fazakali, as all Scousers know. Anyway, Pam said, my mum also went to the group your mum went to young wives i remember the old wives too my grandmother that was she went to the women's bright hour that sounds good doesn't it well it does but does that imply that there's a woman's not so bright hour where are the other women going i'd have gone to this seems so much

more fascinating and forward thinking. The men, young and old, went to something called the men's class. That sounds really boring. Obviously not as frivolous, no, and far more educational. Thank you for keeping me sane-ish, says Pam, who's settling into

life in Litchfield, but obviously it'll never be the same. Well, we're doing our best. That's the Mersey Riviera. We had quite a few about workplace childcare, and thank you very much indeed for all of those. This one came in from Yvette, who's listening to us in Melbourne. Returning to the paid workforce is one of the

biggest barriers to meeting breastfeeding goals. The relatively simple solution of workplace childcare would facilitate breastfeeding without the added burden of pumping. Mothers could go to their infant to breastfeed in the same amount of time they would sit in a room attached to a breast pump. The UK has one of the lowest rates of breastfeeding in the world. I didn't know that.

And this relatively simple change could be part of the solution. And I really agree with you there, Yvette. And I really agree with you there, Yvette. Actually, I think for me, the memory of having to, you know, use a lunch hour or a break at work to go and sit in a cubicle and pump milk just made me feel, it made me feel so unhappy, actually, Jane, because it was just a reminder of how far away I was from my baby. Yes, it's not. It's not a pleasant environment to be in.

You can hear lots of people coming in and having a pleasant environment to be in you can hear lots of people coming in and having a wee next to you it's just not no but it's not it's just not nice sometimes you know who i worked with um but but all of those things should be thought through and there is just a massive disconnect between uh the time that you're encouraged to breastfeed for and the time of most people's maternity leave. It doesn't work. So you are left pumping work. So a workplace crash would be a good idea for that.

But quite a few people have said it just wouldn't work for me. No, I was interested in those emails. I couldn't quite understand their logic. What is the logic of people who say it just won't work? emails um i couldn't quite understand their logic what is the logic of people who say it just won't work uh so uh so this one comes in from jen uh who says that she has been lucky enough to use the workplace nursery for both children but the i think the one problem for her uh is that um when the lockdowns came and when she wasn't allowed to work in the office she still had to travel to the nursery to take the kids there and so for quite a lot of people who've gone back to work in a hybrid way

if it's a workplace child care facility you're not in the right place at all at the right time but I would argue that that's what's happening all of the time yeah when your nursery is miles away from work a bit closer to home so it's a bit six of one half a dozen of the other um and there was one which i can't find here but if i do i will certainly attribute it to the right person but somebody just saying actually it's nice to go to work drop the kids off and go to work and not have the knowledge that your kids downstairs might need you at any time and therefore you might be called at any time drop the kids off and go to work and not have the knowledge that your kids are downstairs and might need you at any time and therefore you might be called at any time and perhaps if they if you weren't so conveniently situated you may not be called yeah yeah it's difficult i mean it's all

about women being involved in the decision making which um is a rather sort of well tenuous link to the evidence given at the covert inquiry today here in the UK by this senior female civil servant who was just consistently making the point that she thinks that women suffered during the pandemic because there weren't enough decisions made by women with the interests of women in mind. Yeah, there certainly weren't enough women in the room. It's just, it is, it's really terrible. And anyone who thinks, oh, going on about quotas, what does it matter whether there are women there? Well, here's your example. It does matter. Yeah, but I would argue, as I think I said yesterday, that I think the workplace thing is just so important for parenting.

So it stops always being about mums having to work out childcare. You know, it just stands to reason that more men would be able to participate in early years childcare if they were encouraged through their place of work to bring their kids to a workplace creche. It's got to make a positive difference there, hasn't it? Well, you would think so. Yes. Yeah. Some interesting emails too.

After our correspondent who'd had an eating disorder was worried about the messages she was perhaps inadvertently sending or might send to her own offspring. And this is from a listener who says, I too had issues in my early 20s and I used food, I think, to quash my feelings of depression and anxiety. I was also bulimic for a while.

I think I was quite scared of food and especially when going back to my parents' house, even as an adult with children of my own, I always overate on all the cakes and biscuits my mum would have in the pantry I've always been into healthy eating and I tried to bring my kids up this was the 80s on a whole food diet without colors and additives or too much sugar I was concerned that my children especially my daughter would also have a problematic relationship with food. And I'd like your correspondent to know the good news. She hasn't.

They don't have a bad relationship with food. My daughter is unconcerned if she puts weight on, has recently had a gorgeous baby. She's still teaching me, as they do, about healthy attitude to body size and reminded me when I was visiting a couple of weeks ago that she was happy for me to compliment her but please don't mention her size. It brought me up sharp as I think I'm still

concerned about keeping slim. I'm 65 now and my scales are often in use. I just hadn't realised that I was commenting on her size rather than her beauty. My son is also a healthy weight, but I'm not so aware of his attitude to food as he's a boy. There's quite a lot in there, isn't there? And I just think, yeah, I mean, I think it's, can I say I think it might be a generational thing? I mean, I'm very close to your age, to this correspondent, I would say that, yeah, I'm 59, she's 65. So is it, are we, what is it about us that's programmed for us

to be programmed to care about our daughter's weight? I don't know. I really don't know. But there's definitely something, there's something in that. I think our emailer has been very honest, actually. And I appreciate her honesty. But it is quite telling that she acknowledges herself that she just isn't as concerned about with her about her son. And I would say. Please do be.

I think that there are there's so much body stress going down for teenage boys and young adult men at the moment, which I don't think gets discussed in quite the same empathetic way as we have learnt to discuss girls' attitude to food, weight and body image. I think, you know, OK, so her son's going to be in his 30s or 40s if her daughter's just had a baby. So he's well out of his adolescence. It's just that she doesn't feel she's programmed to see him in terms of his weight. Yeah.

Whereas she does see her. I mean, and I think to be honest, I think she's onto something. I don't think that's unusual. I really don't. This emailer says, I don't talk about good or bad food with my child. I talk about energy. I call my child the pocket rocket and tell them they need energy to keep the rocket going. Some food gives even more energy and rocket fuel. So they need energy to keep the rocket going. Some food gives

even more energy and rocket fuel so it's great to try it all. I try not to put pressure on them to eat meals but if there's a refusal to eat then I'll keep the meal. When they complain they're hungry it's there ready for them. My child could eat ice cream all year round and if that's an incentive to get them to flipping well keep walking or get off the playground it's chuffing freezing then that's okay i don't want to perpetuate my anxiety about certain food groups onto them your listener said her husband's preoccupation with food came from a place of trauma and i reckon most people with an eating disorder develop it as a coping mechanism perhaps if your listener is open with their children, allowing them food experiences

and explaining their feelings in simple terms, it will help. After all, kids are canny. Mine can spot a sneaky piece of broccoli in a meal faster than he can load Ben and Holly onto the iPad. This is what I felt old at that point because I don't know who Ben and Holly are. No, it might be something really terrible, Jane.

No, I don't think it is. I think it's a popular programme with the very young. OK. Can we talk about bras? Imogen says, long-time listener after my dad recommended your podcast a few years ago. What a guy. After listening to you talk about bra fittings on your Claire Balding episode,

I thought I'd email about when my mum used to be a bra fitter at Selfridges in the 80s. She says she would frequently get men coming in with pictures of their wives whilst buying Christmas presents, asking my mum to guess from the photo what size they would need. That is not great, is it? Come on, fellas, do better. She once had a man present a photo of his wife in a full burka and asked for this service and she doesn't know what to say she also once spoke to paul mccartney's people and sorted some gifts for stella i don't know if this is of any interest it is imogen but i found

it all interesting when she told me so imogen could you go back to your mum i really hope your mum's still around uh could you go back and ask her the initial question why you've got a double A bra cup size, a double D. You say there's a double G but I don't think there's a double B. I don't think there's a double C. Have I seen a double B?

I don't think there's a double B. Before I started going to the shop to get measured properly, the bra size I thought I was was always the bra size they didn't have. Have you had that experience where they've got every other size except the one you think you need? And as we know, 99.99%

of women are wearing the wrong size bra. That's on a press release from the National Bra Council. Yes, so you keep telling us, darling. Hello, Jane and Fee. I took my daughter for her first bra fitting at M&s recently the woman who was doing the fitting was absolutely brilliant and everything you would imagine a bra fitter to be in a richard curtis type film my daughter took her t-shirt off but kept her crop

top on the fitter measured around her chest for the numbers but said she could generally get the cup size right just from looking so didn't measure over the breasts which i suspect my daughter was really pleased about my daughter had been really hesitant to go, but came out feeling pleased to be in her first proper bra with tips on how to put a bra on by lifting each boob and letting it fall into the cup. I had no idea. Did you know that? Well, that is something they do for you at the special shop. Okay. We were advised to have her remeasured every six months, so perhaps this is the start of a new generation having regular bra fittings and not feeling the need to start with an apology.

Incidentally, the fitter herself was very quick to apologise for cold hands. Right. I think. Thank you very much for that. A couple of. Can I just say a couple of lovely, life enhancing bra fitting emails there? Can I just say a couple of lovely, life-enhancing, bra-fitting emails there? No, absolutely lovely. Just a quick word on Halloween. This is the last word, I think, to Mary. Mary, thank you very much for the lovely pictures of your grandsons out and about, trick-or-treating,

dressed up as a pair of extremely scary Skellingtons. They look genuinely quite terrifying. Look at those two. Oh, my word! Exactly. They went out and about and poked some sticks around and generally had a lovely time and apparently Mary set the scene by playing some scary

music. Scary music, of course, this podcast doesn't have the budget for. But anyway, at least Mary had some at home. Okay. Shall we do this email asking for our advice, Jane, or would you rather not? No, I think we should do it. I just don't think we can give advice.

But anyway, let's hear the email. So this is from Please Do Not Read Out My Name. I listen to your show and podcast every day and I value your advice and wisdom on all things, so I thought I'd take the plunge. I'm a 48-year-old woman with two children, 12 and 17, and I'm seriously considering divorcing my husband, but I'm really not sure what to do.

He had an affair about five years ago, and I'm past that, although I do still not trust him. But then again, I doubt I will ever trust anyone again after having my heart and trust broken. When I confronted him back then, he lied to my face for the year it went on until he crumpled. It's not just the affair, but he is rather difficult to live with, argumentative and bombastic. And I just don't think I love him anymore.

We're living in the same house, but more like flatmates. There's no love, tenderness and even kindness and respect is lacking and indifference the worst of all. I question myself when writing this to why I'm staying in this marriage. I haven't talked to him about this previously. I talked about everything, but now I just can't be asked. My question to you both, as I know you are both divorced, is how do you know when it's time to get out of a marriage? I appreciate you can't get personal.

I've never told any of my friends about the affair, but my parents know. And their advice back then was if you love him, then try and make it work. But now I'm not sure I do. but my parents know and their advice back then was if you love him then try and make it work but now I'm not sure I do this correspondent goes on to say I'm from divorced parents twice over and I'm a stable adult and it's never really affected me only now as they're getting older and it would be much more convenient if they were in the same house I'm scared to make I totally get that by the way yeah it is tricky that one I'm scared to make the split. I totally get that, by the way. Yeah, it is tricky, that one. I'm scared to make the split, scared it will destroy the kids, but I don't want them to grow up thinking that this is a loving marriage

because it isn't and I want more. So I would be with you, Jane. I wouldn't feel qualified to make any kind of recommendation. And I think as with everything in life, you can only take the advice of someone whose shoes you genuinely want to walk 10,000 miles in and that should be someone you really know very well. But as I listened to you reading it out,

and obviously we'd both already read it, I think she's made her mind up, hasn't she? She knows what she really wants to do. And how old is she, 48? Yes. You could have another 50 years you don't want to spend i don't think you want to spend 50 years with that man um i think you know that you don't the last paragraph i would say is just so telling that

you know what divorce does because your parents divorced twice over. So you know how difficult it can be, but you also obviously have come through that incredibly well yourself. And you're quite an informed person to make that decision, I would say. But I wouldn't give you any personal, oh God, you must absolutely run for the hills. I think our listeners might be able to do that better, Jane. Yes, I think so. But when she mentions the indifference being the worst thing, I she's right oh indifference is terrible it's it's callous

it's really deathly yeah uh and once you've got to that stage and your children by the way yeah i'm sure that they may well be upset if you make the decision to end the marriage but as they they are they are relatively old themselves they're not babies, they may well actually understand, or they may come to understand in the years ahead. So I think there's a real danger here of overthinking if you are that person. And as I say, actually, I do believe she's already decided what she wants to do, what she knows is the right thing to do for her and for the children and for the husband, because another 40 years,

I mean, you know, as you age, I'm here to tell you that people who are still married are often obliged to spend much more time with each other than they've ever done before. And sometimes that comes with its own tensions. I think there is going to be a time when our attitude to divorce and marital breakdown just really, really, really flips. Nearly one in two marriages end in separation. Now, it's astonishingly high. It's a club that people join. And, you know, you think that you're going to enjoy every single visit to the club.

And you think it's going to be magical and all of that. And for, you know, one out of two club members, is but for the other one they leave the club and so you know there's another club out there that you that you then join and not everybody's happy in that one but some people really are yeah but the idea that divorce is a failure i'm i'm not so sure actually that i suppose that would be what i'd say i think sometimes it's actually quite a successful thing to do it can actually be a monumental positive which isn't to say it's easy because i don't i don't think either of us would say that nope uh but good luck to you and i'm sure that there will be more advice coming your way jane and fee at times dot radio our guest is uh william viney author of a book called twin kind the singular significance Singular Significance of Twins.

Now, it's a lovely book. This is very unusual. It's full of photographs, but there's lots of fascinating detail, too, about all sorts of aspects of being a twin and of other details of the way twins have been treated all over the world and throughout history. Some were revered, worshipped. Others, other societies actually abandoned twins and found them terrifying. And of course, we also know that some terrible things were done to twins in relatively recent

history. And then there are twins who were put into freak shows. And also, so there's a lot to tackle here in the company of William Viney, who is himself an identical twin. And he is the elder of two twin boys. Here is William explaining that he is very much the older brother, though not by very much. Twelve minutes. Twelve minutes, but they're 12 very important minutes. So you are the big brother. I guess I am. I mean, you know, like those 12 minutes meant more or less over time and as we grew older and I think they mean almost nothing now and I guess you know how do we get on well we're quite close but that hasn't always been the case and one of the things I've had time to reflect on is how our relationship has changed. It's changed as we have grown older,

as we've moved out of our family home, as we have taken up different professions, got married, had children, life changes, our relationship changes. Have either of you had a set of twins? Not yet. twins? Not yet. Oh, okay. So that may, do you know why you are twins? Was it in your family, your mother's family? What? Well, look, that's a really good question. And one that I kind of wanted to kind of answer for myself, like George and I are identical or sometimes called monozygotic twins. Now, the reason why humans have monozygotic twins, so that's when a fertilized egg breaks into two and ordinarily make kind of genetic identicals of two people,

is a kind of phenomena in biology that is still not really very well understood. There's only one other species that does twinning like humans and that's the nine-banded armadillo. It's very rare in the world, in other ecologies. And so I don't think I can kind of answer why does that happen. So I don't think I can kind of answer why does that happen? I haven't given myself an answer. Twins also are born when two eggs are fertilised and they are commonly called non-identical or dizygotic twins. Right. I mean, there have been any number of really quite dotty and frankly insulting theories about twins over the years. What was

it that Aristotle thought about twins? He thought there was, I think, it's a terrible expression, too much seed. Yes. So ancient Greek philosophers like Aristotle had a theory of seed for human reproduction. Men and women produce seed. If they produce too much seed, then twins might occur. But also what he thought of as other kinds of monstrosity. So they could be people born with an extra limb or no limb where there should be one. So for Aristotle, twins were a kind of monstrosity. And that was very important in the history of biology and the philosophy of biology and to the reception of twins, because it kind of suggested that twins were not just unusual, but not very appealing or, in fact, dangerous.

Well, some cultures were happy to worship twins. They thought twins were really properly fascinating, more than fascinating. But in other societies, twins would quite routinely be abandoned. I mean, there are some dreadful examples of cruelty in your book. would quite routinely be abandoned. I mean, there are some dreadful examples of cruelty in your book. I think that whenever a human group or an example of a group is made an example of scapegoated or is ostracised or made unusual, then they become vulnerable.

or made unusual, then they become vulnerable. And twins have been subject to all kinds of violence for different reasons in Europe, in the Americas, in Africa, all over the world. And I suppose one of the more fascinating things for me to learn more about was why does that happen? What stops it happening? And how does it continue to happen maybe in less violent ways, but no less harmful ways? Can we talk about the number of twins born? Because of IVF, there are now more twins born because because of IVF there are now more twins born so but I guess that would only apply in the developed world I mean tell me what is the current situation? That's correct so you

know about 1.6 million twin pairs are born every year in worldwide and and there have never been more twins born each year. And in Northern Europe and North America, since around the early 1980s, over the last 40 years or so, it's been possible to induce twins in a way that was never possible before. So IVF is one method. Hormone treatments is another. And this has increased twin births.

And does that make them less of a curiosity? I think it's important to note that for the most part twins who are born via IVF and other reproductive technologies tend to be dizygotic or non-identical twins and so IVF comes at a point where culturally there's also this I, preference or desire for more identical kinds of twins. So I think it's a kind of complicated picture. We have more twins than we've ever had on the earth before. And yet our stereotypes of what makes a real kind of twin persists with this highly visual visually

identical form of twinning sure and what i thought was really interesting was you you talk about people who there's quite a high percentage of of people who are born and their twin has died in the womb or it is discovered afterwards that there was another embryo to start with, or indeed a woman miscarries and has miscarried one of the embryos, but the other goes on and is born and is absolutely fine. Do you think that does have an impact on people? I think that applied to Elvis, didn't it? He was one of two. Yeah, Elvis's mother believed that one of the reasons why Elvis was such a spectacular star was because he in some way received all the energy of his brother, Jesse.

There are many different calculations of what gets called vanishing twin syndrome. twin syndrome, that sensation or that feeling, both psychological but maybe also physical, because you may carry the marks on your body of where you once were a twin, that's possible. There are many different calculations of how prevalent that is and the different understandings of how it affects people. I know of people who were born twins but lived most of their life a single twin. And starting life as a twin means an enormous amount to them. But I also know very identical twins who conform to every social stereotype, at least in Northern Europe, who can't stand each other. Really? OK. And do everything they can to stay away from one another.

And so it's highly various. Can I ask you, William, just about your own path with your brother of development? Because just within a family, you know there will be different times that uh kids hit different markers and if you've got an older or younger sibling you might be constantly compared to you know when it was that your 13 year old first grew a chest hair or whatever it is but as twins uh you know you are presumably physically developing at the same at the same rate but But what about emotionally? Was there a difference between you and your brother in that regard?

I don't know to what extent that's explained by a kind of development. I mean, for sure there are differences in our characters that seem to have always been there and manifest differently as we grew older so I think I've I've had an appetite for risk in a way that George hasn't and now um I look back on that and I think of my career as a as a series of kind of wild kind of leaps into the dark and George has always seemed to follow a very close path towards progress. We found it's certainly the case that when we were younger, it was difficult. But then I think also it was difficult being a twin because we lived in a very small rural community where on the one hand,

everybody knew who we were. And then on the other hand, no one could quite tell us apart. So even our anonymity wasn't quite, you know, perfect. But did you learn to read at the same time and learn to ride a bike at the same time? And that kind of, did you have that kind of symmetry? We did. And we also, I guess our developmental kind of progress, if you like, was also informed by being twins. You know, we developed language later, I think,

than some of our peers, because like a lot of twins, that's common. We didn't need language quite so much than some singletons need language. We had each other for company. We communicated to one another in a language that we understood and no one else did. Likewise, we were quite

competitive and quite athletic and we were always trying to outdo each other. Now that created a kind of internal dynamic which was one of its own, one that was really, you know, owed a lot to being twins. For anyone who is currently pregnant with twins, they could have found out today that they're having twins. What is your biggest bit of advice, William? And would you ever refer to them as the twins or is that a complete no-no?

As the twins, or is that a complete no-no? I mean, one of the reasons why I wrote this book, because it was because I found that there were loads of books telling people how to value their twins and how to think about twins. It usually in quite kind of didactic ways, you know, psychologists, for example, have very strong views about how you should, you know, guide and develop your twins in particular ways. I'm less interested in that. I'm less interested in telling people what the best is for them and their twins.

And I'm much more interested in asking people to be curious and to have conversations with people that are open-ended about twins rather than kind of rely on... Like, you know, you had your your call uh mike earlier asking you know should you separate or should you have your twins together at school and i'm like well why not both why don't why don't you just chop and change according to how things progress why do you have to make a decision based you know in one point of time and just, you know, that's it. It's that sort of thing that I'm interested in.

I don't think I have any great payload advice for expectant twin parents. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Um, this is a nice text. My niece, when she was very little, saw herself in a mirror outside her bedroom, mistook the mirror image for a twin and began a conversation with a non-existent sister that was unfortunately overheard by her brother.

She is still hearing about it decades later. And this from Charlotte. I'm a twin with a non-identical sister, although we do look alike. We are both now 40 40 we've always been close we went to the same school the same university and lived together at university and during our young professional life in london we've traveled together and it was only when i got married that we've ever been apart at most we are only ever apart for a fortnight despite many twins and people's preconceptions we are chalk chalk and chalk, not chalk and cheese.

We now have our own children, no twins, but continue to be really, really close. When we're together, people still will do a double take. We haven't had any spooky twin moments, but we do often send the same birthday cards. William, that's what civilians want to know. They want to know about those so-called spooky twin moments. So have you and George ever known that the other was in pain, for example? This is where, you know, as a twin, I disappoint people. You know, I think on the whole, George and I look alike, sufficient for them to for people to be kind of satisfied that it's genuine.

kind of satisfied that it's genuine you know and then often the next question is you know tell me about your experiences of telepathy or you know to the extent to which you feeling that each other's pain and at this point that you know it feels like I'm bursting the balloon and and I can't tell them anything it just doesn't happen for me and um well don't worry don't make it up if it doesn't happen that's okay but what's interesting I think for me is that there is these a series of expectations yes that that twins should maybe conform to and and and I never get away from those um even if I don't quite kind of you know meet them yeah yeah um there is a pediatrician quoted in your book um Winnicott who said that twins were really up against it from the start may well face a life of psychological turmoil because they were essentially bound to be competing for their mother's attention. Do you buy that? No, not really. You know, it just seems to me to assume that, you know,

the ideal kind of family involves two parents and a child. And the ideal child has two parents, usually a mother, who is the primary caregiver. I just. I think it's deeply unhelpful and old-fashioned, but it still really informs how parents of twins are guided and how they should view their twin children as potential sites of trouble, because their twin relationship can kind of create all kinds of problems for them. Either they too much identify with the other

or there's a rivalry that is very toxic. But there's an enormous amount of fear invested in twins by parents. And I sometimes worry that the psychological professionals are kind of stoking it by saying, actually, what you really want is healthy individuals. That's the ideal. And your twins can be guided out of that. For example, if they're not in the same class as at school and you don't dress them alike and you don't call them twins, for example. school and you don't dress them alike and you don't call them twins for example can we talk about some of the other twins that you have uh included in the book and particularly the the chapter on born entertainers because our fascination with twins has meant a life on the stage for quite a lot of twins over the years, hasn't it? I would imagine not always for their own entertainment and joy.

No, and one of the things that I learned more about as I was doing my research is how fast some of those celebrity lives can be. I was particularly drawn to stars of the Vaughan DeVille stage in the 1920s, the Dolly Twins or the Rocky Twins. They had careers that lasted maybe five, six or seven years. And then they were replaced by other twins who kind of did high kicks and kind of dance reviews and sort of various comic skits and then they were kind of

discarded. You see exactly the same thing happening on social media. There are so-called TikTok twinfluencers who kind of burn bright and have millions of followers and then they disappear and they're kind of replaced by other sets of twins. And part of me feels deeply uncomfortable by that. I must admit, if I'm honest, the twins that come easiest to my mind when I was thinking about this are the Kray twins, who do feature in your book. In fact, you have a section on, basically, it's called Follet à Deux, is that right? The suggestion that malevolent

twins working in tandem can do, well, and certainly in the case of the Krays, an enormous amount of damage. The Kray twins were in prison for a very long time. And yet the media were able to help them secure their legacy as celebrity gangsters. And they still have this excitement attached to them that personally I'm kind of revolted by. But the Krays certainly were able to kind of capitalize on their twinship and to kind of incorporate it into their highly violent persona. There's also a story in the book about a pair of Swedish sisters it wasn't actually that long ago, but I didn't know anything about this, who were caught on a British motorway.

And they charged out into the traffic, really seriously injuring themselves. And then when one was in hospital, critically injured, the other murdered somebody and then jumped from a bridge and broke both her legs. And in their defence, the barrister argued that they were experiencing a form of shared psychosis. So that was argued and used as a way to diminish responsibility for one of the twins. Arguably, they had diminished responsibility because they were twins. William Viney talking about his book Twinkind. We are focusing on some of the more negative aspects of twins there right at the end of the conversation. But there was lots of good stuff in there, too. And I don't personally

know any twins i've just realized well my aunt is a twin yes so she's married to my uncle so there's no it's not in my oh it's not a blood a blood relative and she came to live in this country uh she's french but her twin stayed living in france But the older they've got, the more they want to be together, actually, on the same kind of landmass. And they, I think, actually at the moment, are on holiday together. And I still find it spooky. Obviously, I've known my aunt all of my life, and I still find it strange when I see her twin.

Because they are so alike. Yes, they are identical. But they have do you know what they have such a lovely bond jane really really really lovely bond well i rather admired william's honesty but he said that yes he and his brother are very close but they've never had any of those feelings no no none of just happened none of those kind of ley line moments of buying the same thing at the same time or what have you but it's a lovely relationship to witness if it's working. It's really, I mean, it's just peak sibling, isn't it?

It's peak love, peak sibling love. Dolly Alderton said that we were turning into twins yesterday, didn't she, when she came in to talk about her novel. We'll air that interview next week. She also very kindly said, I look nothing like Kevin Keegan. So I'm holding that close to my bosom. Have we done this email from Kathleen about psychics? Oh, I've got this.

Well, you go for it. I've got it here as well. It's just superb, Kathleen. We've got to get a wiggle on because I'm doing good works and Fee's got to go and watch Shetland. And I've got it recorded. Put it on series link. Kathleen says, I have not only visited a psychic. I was for a time a fairly close friend of a practising psychic

she could be chillingly accurate at times but as a person with a scientific background I began to take note of the accuracy rate and some things she predicted were just wrong at the beginning of lockdown for example she told me it would all be over in two weeks and I wasn't to worry

on the other hand when I was really panicking about my son's travel visa coming through he was about to go to university in england she told me confidently it would arrive the following friday even though the visa office had said up to four weeks sure enough late in the day on friday it arrived just in time for him to get to his first week of classes. If you were not keeping track, you'd believe she was always correct. But I'd put it at about 50-50. I just can't be sure, says Kathleen. OK, well, that is 50-50 is not a bad strike rate.

But the weirdness of the accuracy about the visa. I know. But you know what, Kathleen? I would much rather that your son's visa hadn't come through on the Friday and that your psychic friend had been right about the pandemic only lasting two weeks. So if you could just maybe swings and roundabouts there next time you go for a reading, that would be good. Well, no, do ask her about the election, because I think if I went down the bookies now, I'd probably get reasonable odds on something, the majority or something like that.

Just have a word with her. We don't know this psychic's name, do we? No. Hang on, hang on, hang on. Is it coming through? Is it coming through? Is it coming through? Wait, no, no, wait, wait.

I'm going to say... Ooh. Jean. Well, I'm guessing Mary, because Kathleen is a Kathleen, so she must know a Mary. Let's see who's right. You know what you have to do?

Jane and Fee at times.radio, Kathleen. Thank you very much. All right, Kev, have a lovely evening. Do you know I interviewed Kevin Keegan once? Did you? And I asked him about that perm. And he said, he said, Fee, it was absolutely terrible.

Whenever I walked past a window or a mirror, I felt like I was looking at myself through beveled glass. So he had a sense of humour about it, and he had a massive sense of humour about it. I thought it was rather sexy, actually. It just reminded me that his wife is called Jean. And you just said Jean. Halloween is not over here.

More's the bloody pity. Right, good evening. Good luck tonight, darling. We're bringing the shutters down on another episode of the internationally acclaimed podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. But don't forget that you can get another two hours of us every Monday to Thursday afternoon here on Times Radio. We start at 3 p.m. and you can listen for free on your smart speaker.

Just shout Play Times Radio at it. You can also get us on DAB Radio in the car or on the Times Radio app whilst you're out and about being extremely busy. And you can follow all our tosh behind the mic and elsewhere on our Instagram account. Just go onto Insta and search for Jane and Fee and give us a follow. So in other words, we're everywhere, aren't we, Jane? Pretty much everywhere. Thank you for joining us us and we hope you can join us again on

very soon voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone. Voice over on settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.