Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Don't let her back! She's trouble! (with Zandra Rhodes)

Episode Date: August 6, 2024

Where are you listening to us today? Why not do everyone a favour and play us out loud at your GP surgery, dentist or opticians? You'll hear discussions about virginal names, being four sheets to the wind and Simone Biles. Plus, Fi speaks to fashion designer Dame Zandra Rhodes about her memoir 'Iconic'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Is she straddling two hobs or are you just putting it on a hob and hoping that the convection will do the trick? Because that's what I've never understood. I mean, they're very long things, aren't they? What an excellent question. Thank you, darling. Right, welcome to Off Air with Fiona Susanna, Grace Glover and Jane Susan Garvey. How B.A.? And this is pertinent to our first email. What?

B.A. How? I prefer EasyJet. Oh, very good. Now you've got three first names. Yeah. It's just greedy, isn't it? Hello.

Gosh, we're so soon into belittling my family choices. Is Grace named after, is that a family name? It is. Yeah. So my granny was Grace. Gosh, we're so soon into belittling my family. No, seriously, is Grace named after, is that a family name? It is. So my granny was Grace, and my mum is Grace. I think that's good, yeah. And I think there was probably,

because sometimes you do have to, you have to give your kids names to please the other side of the family and stuff, so I suppose that's somewhere along the line. It couldn't just be Grace on my mum's side I honestly don't know I don't know why I've got two and if you're wondering why we're mired in this conversation about names it's because you do it I thought I was cuing you in there we could share it Jane yes careful this is a really I think it's a really interesting point, this,

about surnames from somebody who's in the process of getting divorced. So go ahead. Well, it's a lovely email from Rebecca, which is about school uniform and all kinds of things. And we are keeping that in a special folder. We may do a special special about it. And she goes on to say at the end, actually, another question for you and for listeners

i'm recently divorced and i'm thinking of changing my surname but i don't want to revert to my maiden name so i'm wondering if it's okay to just make one up i keep writing lists of possibilities and practicing my signature but haven't yet taken the plunge any advice from anyone else would be gratefully received i've just thought of another option, Rebecca Glavey. I'd like that. I think that's rather a wonderful tribute. No one has ever done that before. First there came tote bags.

And they changed their names. They brought their surnames. I don't want to ask too many questions, but it is interesting that you don't want to revert to, I don't like the term, maiden name. We've really got to revisit all this stuff. My virginal name. Yeah, I mean, so many, so many creepy connotations connected to that.

I think the whole issue of surnames is really fascinating. I, just from a personal perspective, I've never understood why so many women of my age with very similar views to me on a whole range of issues didn't even bat an eyelid about changing their surname and then I realised that my children don't have my surname I only have my father's surname what is the point of it all what do surnames mean do we need to have a conversation about where we go with all this well I think Rebecca also raises the hugely

interesting point as to whether or not you can make it up and I don't know the answer to that I know I believe you absolutely can I mean the deed poll thing allows you I've never understood deed poll that's a term we flash around all the time without really I've changed my name by deed poll it's something I've heard for so long but I don't actually know what that means what you do does it cost money I know who's running deed poll who's paying for deep yeah i think they must be are they making a packet i don't know um do you have to do it by deed poll or can you just say look from now on i'd like to be called um agatha fits biggs well i guess through the passport thing you you would have to get an intervention wouldn't you? If you wanted to change your name on your passport,

it's ever so complicated, and you've got to provide your marriage certificate, and quite a few people get caught out if they haven't changed their passport before they get married and they've booked the tickets and the married name and all that kind of stuff. It wasn't a problem I encountered. But I felt the same way as

you i mean are you saying that you just felt it uncomfortable to take another person's name when you married i i just didn't why would i when that isn't my name wasn't my identity and i know so people like i say almost all my friends have have changed their names i'm a bit of an outlier um my sister hasn't changed her name. She's still very happily married, but hasn't changed, never changed her name either. And it was something that our parents didn't really get. It's not like they were really happy for us

to keep the name Garvey. They thought it was very indulgent and rather peculiar. That you kept it. That we kept it. It wasn't in any way to satisfy them. But people who say, oh, isn't it difficult when you don't have the same surname as your children? No. that we kept it. It wasn't in any way to satisfy them. But people who say, oh, isn't it difficult when you don't have the same surname as your children?

No. Well, the only time I've encountered it was at a border control. Oh, getting back into the UK. Getting back into the UK. If I'd been travelling, and I just used to carry a letter, just a really, really simple letter, written by the kid's dad saying, you know, and at the time we were married, saying, you know, this is my wife and she is the mother of these children.

But quite often... That's very old-fashioned, though, isn't it? Yeah. But often, and now, because one of my kids is still under 18, when we were last coming back through a border control, you know, the border control man just said, are you her mum? And I said, yes, I am. And, you know, the border control man just said, are you her mum? And I said, yes, I am.

And, you know, he just went, yeah, it's fine. I mean, you know, I think maybe it's, maybe it is different. I mean, of course it's different because there have been some terrible cases of kidnapping, haven't there, of much younger children. It's how I left the country completely unhindered on every occasion with the children. Well, you're on a special list, aren't you?

Let her go, she's trouble. But then when we came back in, that was when I was questioned. Don't let her back, she's trouble. So I don't really, why was I completely safe to leave? I honestly don't know. But it only caused problems when I tried to get back. Rebecca Glarvey, you've started such a fantastic conversation and I would so love to hear from people

who have made up their own surnames and what those are. Because I understand the double barrel thing completely. It gets complicated, doesn't it? It does, yeah. But I wonder whether people have done a kind of, do you call it a portmanteau? I expect so. Yeah, when they've just taken a bit of one name

and a bit of the other and sandwiched it together. So we would love to hear all of your thoughts on that. Have you put your name in a sandwich and put sprinkles on top? We want to hear about it. And by the way, if you are marrying somebody who happens to have a lovely surname and you like the sound of it and you like the feel of it and you like the you like the way it goes with your first name then good for you well i practice the signature as well uh just like rebecca had done yeah and i looked at it quite a lot and i just i just don't like that no but but my my ex-husband's surname is lovely actually and i'm and i'm always incredibly happy for the kids that they've they've got that they've got that name. So I wouldn't have minded it at all.

I just felt I was quite old actually to change my name too because it is relevant to what we do. We say our name out loud more often than in most professions. Which is in itself a bit odd, isn't it? It is. It's one of the many, many things. Many oddities. That's what's odd about this. I did think that was probably an unwise thing to do, so I never did it.

But it gets so complicated. My mother has a double-barrelled surname, of which I'm not part of the double-barrelled because of subsequent marriages and return to form and stuff like that. And I find it bewildering, actually. So quite often when I write to her, I just put my mum.

To my mum. Just put my mum to my mum just put my mom sweet which of course is the most important thing about her oh i'm sure she'd agree i'm wondering how it affects people called barrel as well barrel double barrel because there are people called barrel i've bet some is that an issue for you anyway um i do yeah it's it's a bit of a rich rich pickings here so uh rebecca thank you and i wouldn't in all seriousness go with glavie i think there are probably nicer surnames out there and also it just it just makes you sound a little bit drunk yes it will make you sound permanently as though you're slurring your word and which i'm we're sure you're're not Braced for the Finger of Truth

is an email that comes in from Andy in Margate whose sign off is Knowledge is Control which is a wonderful one and he wanted to write in about the John Holmes interview In 2017 my wife Sue passed away after a very brave two year battle with bowel and liver cancer

that wasn't diagnosed until it was far too late. I mention this simply to press home the point that where cancer is concerned, it's essential to know and to know quickly. And he says the following year, aged 61 and exhausted from multiple nighttime trips across the landing to the loo, I made an appointment with my GP fully expecting to leave the surgery within five minutes, clutching a prescription. I was right about the five minutes but instead of a prescription I received a quick but unexpected finger up the bum and an appointment for a blood test to check my PSA level and John Holmes mentioned the very important PSA level test in that interview which Andy said was terrific because it was packed full of straight talking wisdom and common sense. so to carry on with Andy's story

three weeks later he was diagnosed with a low to medium grade prostate cancer apart from an overactive bladder I had no symptoms whatsoever he went for the active surveillance treatment which is I think John mentioned that too it's a slightly newer form of treatment that you can have and andy says bless our wonderful nhs make no mistake six years ago the very last thing i wanted to hear was that i had prostate cancer but i've come to realize that in knowing i'm actually in a privileged and powerful position i'm reassured that the condition is being monitored and what's more, I'm in complete control of what happens from now on. I urge middle aged men and their loved ones to listen again to the John Holmes interview and to his podcast, which I'll certainly be checking out. Well, Andy, we send you our very best and obviously we both wish you well on your

journey back towards complete health. And I'm glad you enjoyed the interview. I think it is the response of many of our listeners, actually, to John talking so openly, to just be grateful. And you just can't say it often enough. Catch things early and you're back on your feet and you're absolutely fine as, you know, John now is and hopes to remain and he was diagnosed back in 2023 so not that long ago so it's just such an important thing and let's just be more

honest about you know what it takes to diagnose it doesn't matter if somebody's putting their finger up your bottom if it's going to help in the long run. I mean, you know, we talk about smear tests now, don't we? In a way that we never did 30, 40 years ago. And it has helped so much in people coming forward to have them just to know that the shared experience is one of discomfort, slight embarrassment. There's no dignity in a smear test. No one's idea of a good time. Never will be.

But boy, oh boy, it's worth doing. Yeah. I mean, yes, very best to you, Andy. I'm glad things are going reasonably well and sorry about your wife as well obviously but um is it i mean this is a genuine question is it the fear that someone will have to examine them um and put a finger up their bottom that does stop a lot of men from getting help is it as basic as that i think it can be as basic as that but i think it is also as basic as that, but I think it is also the slight myth

of what a change in your bladder means in middle age needs to be completely blown away. So that kind of, you know, we laugh a bit about middle age postmenopausal incontinence, don't we? It's been a source of kind of... It's a trope, isn't it? Yes, a trope and a bit of tittering

and actually it's incredibly serious and and can often be the sign of something else and i think just from the way that middle-aged men talk about that kind of up in the night again you know it's maybe just not conveying quite how serious a symptom that might be so don't just put up with it and find it inconvenient and kind of laugh about it actually go along and yeah and have a test and and get it get it over with if that is what's going to happen and i don't think it always happens the finger up the bum but if that is the worst that happens to you then almost all of us have either had it or will have it in our lifetime not just men for various things you're going to need um that kind of examination so um i was going to say embrace it because but it's not it's not pleasant none of this is pleasant but it's lack of action that is the real problem so

yeah and if it helps just take a longer edition of our podcast play it while it's happening play it to the people in the room and because we need more listeners and listen that's what there's a place where they may be glad of a diversion uh melanie says i was um i just want to tell jane um about the train to cleethorpes which jane asked about this is a bit niche but this is why i love podcasts and i particularly love people listen to this podcast because whatever we say, somebody reacts to it and we are incredibly grateful. I did point out that whenever I arrive at Lyme Street Station in Liverpool, the train to Cleethorpes is waiting patiently to leave the platform just as I arrive. And actually, Melanie is a bit of a veteran of the Cleethorpes train.

She says that the track for Cleethorpes is literally on the seafront. It is parallel to the promenade. And back in the day, workers and their families from the industrial cities used to take the train into Cleethorpes to visit the resort for the day. Many of the men, and this is an illustration, Fiona, of how things have changed, many of the men never left the station. They just went to the two pubs on the platform called refreshment rooms and known locally as the number one that was on platform one and the under the clock which was right under the station

clock it was their wives and children who went to the beach the fun fair and the boating lake that's how things used to be done wow so imagine you come back from a quite hefty afternoon of hot sunburnt child care and your husband's out for the count four sheets to the wind under the clock melody says clee thoughts was my home for about 10 years it was a great place for a teenager with live music at the winter gardens and lots of holiday work in the cafes serving all the trippers the station pubs still exist and they are popular but i was sad to learn that the winter gardens was bulldozed and replaced with sea view apartments happy memories of dancing there to all the bands till closing time then staggering home in the

freezing east coast wind buying chips and scraps on the way uh and actually uh melanie suggests that one day i get on that cleethorpes train. And you know what, Melanie? One day I will. Because it's a part of the country I've never been to and that is a very, very enticing image, especially the mention of chips and scraps. Chips and scraps in the wind. I can hear the seagulls.

Can't you? Melanie now lives in Somerset. Well, not quite so coastal. Well, it is coastal, isn't it? Burnham-on-Sea? That's true, actually, isn't it? I was in Burnham-on-Sea a couple of years ago and it was a boiling hot day, absolutely

boiling, one of those approaching 40 Celsius. And at 12 noon, there were people on the pavement, outside pubs, eating roast dinners. And I thought, that. That's England. That's England. Yep. in a nutshell yeah well if only it was because actually england's disgracing itself at the moment i tell you what uh i thought exactly that well i've just caught a glimpse out of a window because we're way up high

here in the sky in central london of an england flag fluttering from a church quite close to where we are and i sort of, because that flag has been, it just isn't, it's not, it's being used by all the wrong people in all the wrong circumstances, in all the wrong ways. It's become emblematic of something that's going to be very, very hard to come back from. It's really, it's such a disturbing time in this country. Contrast to the Union flag flying proudly at the Paris Olympics, for example. I was just about to say, I mean, let's just take a moment to celebrate the unbelievable strength, dignity, resilience and beauty of our multicultural Team GB.

Standing on all of these podiums, doing their very best, showing this country to be at its very best. And I mean, it really is a diverse team. And we celebrate that, and then you cut to the pictures of fat, white, stupid people shouting racist abuse in the name of this country. And which one, which one are you identifying with? I think it's such a stunning... What's the right word?

Well, it couldn't be a greater contrast. Yeah, it's just absolutely, absolutely appalling. Do you know what my only criticism of the Olympics would be, and it's been picked up by Simone Biles, hasn't it? The interviews being done afterwards are really excruciating. Do you know what? I've got sympathy absolutely with what she said, but also I don't know what I'd ask myself.

Well, I think maybe... What's the alternative? I think maybe the alternative is just to not have an immediate track side or beam side interview to do that pulled thing much later on. Well, I think it's part of the deal, isn't it, that they pop off the track and well i know yeah but but you but you cannot ask a question that isn't uh you know how

are you feeling it's amazing that you've won or oh shit what happened you didn't win and both things are just quite painful to watch i mean there's no new answer to how did you win? I trained really hard. It's taken four years to get here. You know, you've lost. Yes, I know that. I've just lived through that experience myself. I just, I can't bear them at the moment. I can't bear them. Did they always happen?

I don't think they did. Well, I think it's actually an Olympic contractual thing that makes them happen. So I'm not sure. I don't know when it started i've got a feeling it's been going for at least the last four or five olympic games and um you're right i mean when someone has just for whatever reason things have just gone totally belly up for them and let's face it it's grim there is no equivalent outside sport is there

because we can do bad programs do crap interviews but it doesn't mean that our career has come to a juddering halt after years and years of slaving away in the cold and the wind you know so Simone Barnes's particular criticism is stop asking athletes what they're going to do next you know either after they've won or after they've lost and that's such a good point because it's a little bit like asking somebody who's just had a baby, will you have another one? It's kind of like, it's just too soon.

It's just too soon. Usually the answer is no. But yeah, it's a small point, because the Olympics still remains our go-to place of joy. Oh yes, and congratulations to Keeley Hodgkinson last night in the 800 metres. Everybody said she'd win, and she did,

although it wasn't quite... It looked quite close for a while, didn't it? But she got there. And it was really lovely, because we did speak in the Times radio programme yesterday to one of her coaches as a child, a woman called Margaret Galvin, and she was sitting in the front row,

Lee Harriers, on the telly, watching. They were on the telly I should say because they were being filmed as they watched the race and what an amazing achievement that must be as someone who's helped someone get there to see them do it is wow that must be incredible. There was a very funny moment

I was watching it on the BBC and they cut to a shot of everybody at Lee Harriers watching and usually when that happens, everybody reacts, don't they? Everyone goes like this but they were obviously they were watching it on Eurosport so there was no reaction at all.

It was really funny. I think they changed the channel because they did seem to react later. But you know that's nothing you know when they pan to the members of the crowd and you get just for a nanosecond or two before they see themselves on the big screen, you get their real selves. And then they see.

And then they see themselves and then it all goes belly up. I wish there was a way of doing that without them reacting in the way that they always do when they realise it's them whose images are being shown. It's so frustrating that. Anyway, sorry. Yeah. And I've always thought as well,

you know, I hope you haven't pretended that you've got a bad case of the flu. I hope everyone knows that you're there. And especially for the kiddies, because actually at the Euros, there were a lot of shots of kids. It was during downtime.

Well, I do disapprove of that. Yes, of course you do. you do now uh this one comes from kate it'll be the final one from me although can i just say huge thanks there are still so many emails really brilliant emails coming through about school uniform and i just wanted to say thank you and some great book club choices johanna uh because you've really really taken the time it might be johanna i apologize uh and from your email address you're in new zealand so we will put all of these together and really try and think of something to do a little bit sooner than my retirement which was what i originally promised that could

happen at any time and this one comes from kate i laugh with recognition today hearing about the husband putting the duvet cover on the duvet and know that this is exactly the sort of thing my husband would do. After a two-week holiday, we once arrived home with extremely heavy suitcases that he promised he would bring up later. When he hadn't by the time I went upstairs to brush my teeth and finding myself sans toothbrush, I shouted down asking, could he bring the suitcase up for me? When I saw him swinging the case down the hallway,

it was clear that there was nothing in it. And I found that he had emptied the contents downstairs on the hallway floor because you asked for the suitcase. I can laugh at the email, but I'm glad I'm not married to him. I know. And Kate says, sigh.

And we're sighing with you. Yes. Okay. Celine, hello, just says um i just want to write in i was compelled to mention my dear friend ellen ellen's been leading a brownies unit in our village of rittle in essex for so many years whilst also being a full-time nhs psychologist and managing a challenging home life so ellen you, your work has not gone unnoticed. We are bigging up volunteers and people who keep things like brownies going. So congratulations to you, and you're lucky to have a good friend in Celine who's drawn our attention to it.

And I just want to mention this. I'm not going to say this email is slightly middle class, but, hey, we're a bit middle class, and so are quite a few of our listeners. And this is about a fish poacher everybody come on let's just elevate ourselves i want to big up the wonders of a fish poacher as i i really started out your journalistic career i thought i'd be knocking down doors pounding the mean streets but i've turned out to be reading out emails about fish poachers but listen i've enjoyed every moment i want to big up the wonders of a fish poacher says emma as it's

the most wonderful of wedding gifts there's nothing better than a moist delicious and stunning salmon available from any supermarket with a decent fish counter and lots of exotic accompanying salads when you have a large gathering in the summer. Everybody loves it. I say this with great conviction and envy, but in fact it's always been quite beyond me to actually achieve a spread like this, along with fixing the hem on a skirt, taking up a mindful hobby like cross-stitch and getting on my bike for exercise. So I will continue to secretly covet my mum's fish poacher, also a wedding present over 50 years ago, and I hope to inherit it one of these days and put it on the when I'm retired list of activities.

So Emma is looking with envy at her mum's fish poacher and hopes one day to achieve her mother's level of proficiency around large fish. Well, could you in the meantime, before you inherit the fish poacher, ask your mum whether it goes, is she straddling two hobs or are you just putting it on a hob and hoping that the

convection will do the trick because that's what I've never understood. I mean they're very long things aren't they? What an excellent question Thank you darling. Similarly when I started out in journalism this was very very much the zenith that I was hoping to achieve. She also goes on, Emma, to ask for a tote.

I think we'll probably look favourably upon this request. But she says she introduced her great friend to us many years ago. It's only Katie at the Egg Farm. Is it Katie at the Egg Farm? Made a failed request to you earlier in the year, but we're still continuing to listen every day. Oh, maybe this is your lucky time she was hand collecting

and grading the best eggs ever in a very hot or alternatively very cold and smelly egg shed thanking you in advance okay Emma I think you've won this time I'm going to pass this over to the Toad Czar and Toad Czarina

and she will do her best thank you eve lovely stuff right as i mentioned i'm getting into eggs we did say that tonight it was much you might seem to find it very funny but i think if you've given up on eggs why don't you go back to them like me zandra rhodes is our guest this afternoon 84 years old showing no sign of slowing down or dressing down she is the designer designer who made Avant Garde a high street look. And she's written a book explaining her life through 50 objects that mean something to her. She came in with her glorious bright pink hair, stunning blue eyeshadow, a big beaded red necklace and a huge brooch.

The book starts with a story about her mum, who died when Zandra was just in her 20s, but gave her much of her strength, determination and a unique design flair. Well, my mother always looked exotic. And we were going for the day trip to London. It was about probably six in the morning and we were getting the workman's train to London. And she'd pin her hair up in a French pleat and then she had a big curl that she'd pin her hair up in a French pleat and then she had a big curl that

she'd pin in she'd spray it silver and then she'd spray it with hair to set it and all the way on the bus down to the station she kept saying my head does sting my head does sting and she'd use the fly spray on her head instead of setting lotion and and we went we went into the chemist quickly she said you may think i'm an idiot but this is what i've done the man said well you've either got to wash it off or live with it all day so she lived with it of course she lived with it yep and she was an extraordinary woman really wasn't she and obviously you get some of your design flair from her because she liked to dress in quite a flamboyant way she always looked wonderful and um she taught at the college that i eventually went to although

i didn't ever she never taught me because i never thought i'd be going into making making dresses and she taught dress making and pattern cutting and she'd been a fitter in worth barris but she'd come to school open days and say, please don't look different from all the other mothers. And she'd have on lovely platform, green lizard skin platforms and a wonderful hat and she'd look quite fabulous. She was very different to your dad, wasn't she? My father, though, when they met, they met ballroom dancing and he looked like Errol Flynn.

He was very, very handsome and they met ballroom dancing and he was he looked like Errol Flynn he was very very handsome and and they did ballroom dancing together so they must have made a very glamorous pair between them and then of course when my father revealed that this terrible background because Chatham wasn't a big place where his um his his mother had um had in lodgers and had an affair with the lodger and then one of the lodgers then severed her head off. And it was a big scandal. My mother felt very obliged once she was told that secret that she, you know, she was to stay with my father. But all in all, I mean, it was my sister's granddaughter, Harriet,

who actually did all this research on, you know, one of those things that they apply to. Okay, what the kind of ancestry. Antiquity, I think it was. So, I mean, that story about your father's family is really, I mean, it's brutal, it's macabre. I mean, it's quite something, isn't it? It must have been horrendous in those days, I mean,

to live with that and live it down. And I think that probably was something that sat on his back all the time. But for me, you know, he was just like Elf Garnet in those, you know, in Death to Us Part. Yeah. That was my father. Yeah. Would you describe your mum as a feminist? She probably was, but without being that.

You know, she just, she lived by her work and she enjoyed her work and did it all her life and supported both my sister and myself in our careers and how we wanted to go. She seems to have given you some very wise advice along the way. The one thing that really struck me in the book was when she said to you, you know, just ignore anybody else. They're insignificant to you.

You know, you have your talent and that is the thing that you need to keep safe. And I admired her for saying that because I'm not sure that every young woman was really taught from your generation that their individual talent was the thing that would carry them through. I never thought about feminism

or anything like that ever in my life. And I've never, you know, when people say, do you think you were, you know, it would have been different if you'd have been a man. I was brought up that I was an equal and it didn't, I didn't even think about it. I just did my work. So tell us about your early work.

You found your tribe, didn't you, at the Royal College of Art. And I wonder whether you can paint a bit of a picture for our listeners let's say when you were in the flat in Notting Hill or maybe in Bolton Gardens what was that like? Oh well when when we left college and Alex and I lived together and we set up a flat we thought well the flat ought to look good so I was teaching at Walthamstow at the time and they had a furniture department I'd go in and say I want to make a table how do I make the table so everything was put together with a black and decker and this grey table that I still live with in my apartment which will seat about about 16 people at a push so it's a big round table and and you know it was so lovely

looking back at at someone like Piers Goff, the famous architect, who said, well, it was like going into a showroom. But it was more that we thought that we should represent our work and live our work. So if you're telling someone, I'm a designer, then I think you have to look like a designer. So would you say that that dining table

was one of the kind of the tables that the the it crowd at the time wanted to get a place at i was a minor it crowd i don't you know i mean so you are doing yourself down not at all but you know when i first when we first started you know i mean um i'd have ozzy and celia to dinner um but i it was sort of like early days but it was just early days where i wanted we'd never entertained in my my family so when i left when i left at royal college it was a case of wanting to have people back for dinner but there are some lovely mentions of people who we'd recognise in the book. I mean, Francis Bacon gets the Zandra Rhodes treatment in the book. What kind of a person was he? I always think of Francis Bacon as an evil pixie. He, you know, I knew him through my

wonderful tutor, Dickie Chopping, who really was one of the encouragements of my early life from Royal College. And so he and his partner, Francis, used to play them off because, of course, Francis earned so much money with all of his paintings that he could buy anything, you know. But not a particularly nice person. No, he used to play people off against each other. He was very mean. One of the other people who doesn't come off particularly well,

only because you're being honest about them, is Princess Margaret. Now, you have met quite a few and designed for quite a few members of the royal family. With Princess Margaret, though, you tell us some fantastic details. Like, you weren't allowed to leave a party that Princess Margaret attended. And we'd all be hanging around. Until she left.

Oh, you had to wait till she left. So it was at the Italian embassy, that one, where it's midnight and everyone's thinking, we'd love to go, but you can't go because she was still sitting having a good time. And tell us about the cushion that you saw when you visited her apartment. When I went into her library and there was a Petty Point cushion that said, it's not easy being a princess. And I kept thinking, wonder who gave it to her?

We'd love to know. But she just didn't seem very at ease with her position. She didn't want to make other people feel at ease with her did she? I suppose all of us got our own characteristics of the ones that sort of like make you feel at ease and ones that probably just are in that certain position that that they are I suppose that's what it is really. But is that difficult when you're designing for people? What is that perfect interaction between a designer and the client? Well, you're already halfway there because if someone says they want you and you're delivering a dress, like when I made the lovely off-shoulder

dress for Princess Diana, she came into my shop and tried it on in black. Well, they can't wear black. So I'd then go to the palace with my passport, wear your hand in, they know who you are, and then you go in and there are still the dolls around and you do curtsy because people never understand that, but you do, and then try the dress on her and she was always absolutely charming. Yeah, and Princess Anne as well.

I know you had quite a lot of time for her, but tell us the story as well about the dress that you designed for her. For Princess Anne? Yeah. And Princess Anne as well. I know you had quite a lot of time for her. But tell us the story as well about the dress that you designed for her. For Princess Anne? Yeah. Well, it was actually English Vogue that said, we're doing some photographs on a really important lady and send something in. I actually thought it was going to be Elizabeth Taylor.

And I had this lovely white dress with all this embroidery on and a little bodice and I sent it in. And then a month later, Norman Parkinson said, it's actually your dress that's going to be on the cover of Vogue, and it's on Princess Anne. And it was an announcement of her engagement, and it looks gorgeous. It really does look gorgeous, actually, doesn't it? It really looks fairy princess.

And such a departure from actually what princess anne had usually worn and and perhaps surprising to what she now chooses to wear would that be fair to say i think so but she's very real the one thing you could say about princess anne is she's very real and genuine i think We absolutely love her on the podcast. Yeah, she is a heroine of ours. And you do note in the book that when you went to your investiture, she had memorised every single person. You know, when the Queen did it, although the Queen, you know, but when you came up, someone goes to her,

oh, so-and-so and so-and-so, but she didn't look at any notes. She must have read through and she's seeing 300 people that day. It's amazing. That is amazing, isn't it? Sandra, I don't want to drag you down by asking this question, but it feels like you're a very honest person, so I hope you don't mind me asking about your health. Ask whatever you like.

If you put it in a book, then it's open for everyone to read. But actually, this isn't in the book. It's about the diagnosis that you were given a couple of years ago, which I know wasn't a particularly positive one health-wise. What I really don't understand is my lovely friend Andrew Logan, who's also done that wonderful sculpture of me, said, Zad Zardo you never bothered to do yoga you've got to do my yoga class so we're laying down and he says breathe deeply

and I breathe deeply and um this my stomach feels full and I haven't eaten all day so I thought oh I better deal with it and then so then my doctor arranges a special appointment after I've had an x-ray and Dr Khan who who's my doctor said um you've got a growth it's 13 centimeters and um you know you probably got six months and so I said don't tell anyone I've got all this work I've got to get done. So I put in place my all I've started, I founded the Zandero's Foundation, and working out which museums across the world are going to get the clothes and what's going to happen and, and don't tell anyone because I won't get any work. So and I've had permanent work ever since. What do you have? And you've written a book as well, which is extraordinary.

But is I mean, is there a kind of silver lining, actually, in that it does allow you to really create your legacy the way that you want to create it? If it hadn't have happened, I wouldn't have put all the whole foundation in place and maybe I'd got some sort of form of will, but now we've catalogued all the 6,000 dresses that I've managed to squirrel

away in boxes under everywhere and we've been gradually making sure they go to different museums across the world and um the zandra's foundation will have its own offices above the museum that i founded the fashion textile museum so it's really keeping me busy, working out where things are going to. Fantastic. And are you feeling well? You sound very well. I feel okay. I walked here and it was lovely.

Yeah. And final question, just your thoughts with your fantastic long view of the fashion world about how women are doing at the moment. Because on the one hand, we do have a freedom, if we can, to dress how we want, to experiment with how we look. But on the other hand, there is still a terrible pressure,

especially on younger people, to really conform to a body image that is almost impossible to achieve where are you with all of that i do find this whole thing of um how you're you can address people very very difficult partly because i haven't been brought up to to know about that and i find it i just think as women we've got to just keep fighting to to keep our identity and um find our place in the world whether we've it's worse or better i don't really know but do you see in fashion a kind of liberation that would be worth celebrating i don't particularly feel any more liberated than I ever did.

I mean... That's interesting. You know, I think we've got to just go on saying we're proud of being women and we are what we are and I don't think we have any choice about it. Zandra Rhodes and her book is called Iconic because that's what she is. It was really lovely to meet her

and honestly she was just so bedazzling. Well, that's what she is. It was really lovely to meet her and honestly she was just so bedazzling. Well, that's what we need. Can we have a pen portrait in word form? Yeah, so she had on those slight kind of, you know that very, that concertina polyester material that is used by very, very high-end designers. I'm going to say Issey Miyagi. Bright red pair of trousers in that type of material.

One of her own prints on silk. So it was a blue blouse and it was a blouse with red kind of squiggly design on it. Her brooch was enormous. I mean, we could have served a side of salmon on the brooch alone. Bright pink hair, huge green earrings, fiery, fiery blue eyeshadow i mean just a glorious

a proper peacock yeah of an outfit but it was lovely to talk to xandra and sometimes we've had this conversation haven't we about aging a lot because of joe biden, you know, I think when you're as sprightly as Zandra Rhodes, she could run a country. And she's 84 years old. But I think what I want to say here, I think she still remains an example of obviously the danger of putting too much weight of expectation on an 84 year old because of the inevitability of what comes next. And I admire her hugely for keeping going. She's had a terrible diagnosis for her health. But there's nothing about her aura, you know,

that suggests she is heading towards the end. But the reality is she is. We shouldn't fight shy of saying that. We all are. But I guess there's something about older people not ageing in beige, not just disappearing into... Do not go gently into that good night. That's exactly what that is.

And I think Prue Leith is another woman who... Oh, she's great, actually. She wears the bright glasses, the bright colours, because why the hell not? Yeah, but I suppose this is an unformed thought, so apologies for this, but it's not ageist to talk about that stage of somebody's life, constantly referencing their age.

I suppose that's what I'm trying to say, because we haven't got into trouble for that before. No, it's just reality. It's just reality, but also it's so helpful to be able to talk about it openly. So there we go. I'll shut up now. We'd love to hear from you if, like me, you've got back into eggs, or if you've straddled two hobs with or without an egg

a fish poach I'm obsessed by eggs janeandfee at times.radio Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fi. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.