Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Drunk in a French department store (with Geoff Norcott)

Episode Date: July 2, 2024

Jane and Fi are reunited and it feels so good! They discuss the need for electric hot rods, Jane's small cactus and window cleaner etiquette. They are joined by Geoff Norcott, comedian and writer, discussing his new book 'The British Bloke Decoded'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'Missing, Presumed' is by Susie Steiner. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail]. Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi. Assistant Producer: Hannah Quinn Podcast Producer: Evelyn Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

He could not possibly have known that the man he was going to celebrate in, I think quite a lot of detail, was in fact someone that I've been married to. I mean, what are the chances? I felt yesterday, because I listened to your episode with Matt Chorley on a plane. Isn't that incredible? Oh, how lovely. You can buy Wi-Fi now. Yes, you can, can't you?

Yeah, and it was too tempting. How much was it? It was £4.99. That's cheap at half the price. Yep, so I listened to you and Matt chortling away. I did feel that he was a little louder than you. Well, we can't... I'm very angry about this.

It's a big week for little Matt. Obviously, he's mad keen on politics. So it's an exciting time. But it was lovely to have him. But he's no replacement for you. You say all the right things. He's not staying at Times Radio forever and ever and ever. So it was very much

his swan song, I felt. Yes, I think it probably was. As we always say, we wish him well. Not that well, but relatively well. I wonder whether he'll get a Connie and two packs of mini-Connie mini-rolls from his team when he goes. We did rip into the mini-Collins

yesterday in your absence. God, you waited that long? I had some left, I had some left, yes. So, yeah, and they're nice, but they're not as nice as a slab of the real thing well i think the joy of the colin is the absurdly thick chocolate especially around the neck area you're blessed if you get some of colin's neck yeah you really are uh anyway you had a lovely time oh because you actually went abroad i went to the abroad yeah yeah went to the continent

and it was lovely it's a little bit too hot we can't complain haven't got that problem here have you shouldn't complain and um i there are already some terrible forest fires on some of the islands in greece and we were on corfu and you could see the blackened hillsides from previous summers of forest fires and it's a salutary thought because you've gone over there on a plane to find yourself a little bit too hot and you get back on the plane, go, oh, isn't it lovely to be back in the drizzle?

And you've just got to really think that through as the tourist visiting the destination adding to the problem. So I'm really interested to hear from listeners about this because it's one of the problems of our times, isn't it? And I think future generations will think about travel in such a different way. There was a really horrendous thunderstorm

that we pounded our way through on the way back, causing a lot of turbulence. The reaction to the turbulence now on planes seems to be quite different because there have been so many horrendous incidents. So immediately everyone back to their seats, sit down, seatbelts on, trolleys away, everything in a much more kind of voracious way than before. And you just think, well, of course, that's a problem attributed to global warming too.

And we're part of it. We're in a plane. So I don't know, Jane. I don't know. Sometimes I think maybe, you know, just go to Dundee. And you came back with some sugar-free baklava. Thank you. I haven't eaten one. So go to remain unopened on the desk. Longer than the mini columns.

By the portrait of Barbara, where they'll stay for many, many years. Anyway, never mind. It's lovely to have you back. And did you catch any of the Trump-Biden debate? Well, we did. We did make a special point of watching some of that. By the way, did you have a nice week? Because it was very much the culmination of Sixty Fest.

God, I mean, honestly. When history is written, no one can say that I didn't make an attempt to mark that birthday. I want to thank everyone involved, but please, God, no more. I've got one more function, light lunch, this weekend. How many functions?

That's five functions. That you know about. Oh, God. No, I tell you what, I did on Saturday, I was very, very fortunate to go to Paris for the day with some friends and we did have a laugh. And I would say to anyone who's, obviously, I was terribly lucky and I'm very fortunate and I get it,

but if you can arrange that, I would recommend it because when we got to St Pancras to check in, one of the security staff asked where we were going because it was very early in the morning. It was about quarter to seven. Oh, good God. Asked, where are you lovely ladies going? Because we all had frocks on.

Everybody had made an effort. And one of my friends said, oh, we're going to Paris just for lunch. And she went, yes! And there was a small ripple of applause and admiration and I think it was partly, this lady who is much younger than us, was taking comfort in the notion that even at our age you can still have ambition to have a good time.

But also doesn't it say so much that you can get to Paris for lunch, I think at the moment with greater certainty and certainly greater alacrity than you could if you were going to Liverpool for lunch. So people have said, oh, wasn't it tiring going there and back in a day? And I said, well, I quite often do it to Liverpool and back in a day.

But it's two hours, ten, isn't it? Yeah, it's actually shorter than the journey from London to Liverpool. Get you, darling. I should be going every weekend, shouldn't I? Anyway, I tell you what, the restaurant was very French. They will insist on that in France, won't they? What is it about them? I did have a terrible moment of realisation in Galerie Lafayette.

It was about four o'clock. Had you gone there to use the toilets? I was just extremely... You know when you suddenly come to, one minute you're just having a great time and you feel fabulous and then you think... I've had too much drink. And it's rather unpleasant. I don't think you would have been applauded back onto the train

by the same steward. No, but some of my friends were hitting the blunging plonk on the way back as well. I don't know what got on them. I know, I don't know how they do it for you. I genuinely don't. Did you have any inflatables? No, we didn't.

It wasn't like a hen trip to Liverpool, I don't believe. If anyone's got pictures, I'm paying very, very, very good money. Well, I'll show you the pictures later or perhaps tomorrow. No, I'm fine. Thank you. No, I'm fine. We did watch a bit of Trump-Biden and, I mean, what else

could we possibly say to add to the chorus of just stop it, Joe? Well, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it. Because you can't stand up and make an inaugural presidential speech if you win the next presidential election without all of us, all of us being on the edge of our seats. And whoever the fantastic comedian was

who said it's like when your computer's on 1% and you've got a big letter to write. That is watching Joe Biden. Well, yes, it is. That's brilliant. I wish I'd thought of that. But also it's just worth saying women do not have doubt

because that is where the bar is set, apparently, for men. And I should say white men. Two old dodderers competing for the biggest job on earth. That is what we've got. So any woman who thinks I'm not good enough, I won't be, I'm not intelligent enough. I'm not strong enough. Just watch that again. I don't play golf enough. Yes, I can't carry my own bag of sticks. What was it Joe Biden said? I've got my golf handicap.

When I was vice president or whatever it was. I'm doing something really awful about this is that Joe Biden was so terrible he made Donald Trump seem faintly plausible when he was lying through his teeth. Anyway, difficult times. If we have any listeners left in the United States, try to explain this

to us, please. So lots of people have said that Jill should take him aside. If we have any listeners left in the United States, try to explain this to us, please. Yeah. Please. So lots of people have said that it's, you know, that Jill should take him aside. Oh, it's always a woman's fault, isn't it? Have a word with him. But you just think there's something wrong with your political system

if you have to leave that enormous job to a spouse. Why should she? I mean, you know, she loves him more than we love him. So she would be maybe the last person to be able to convince him to stop doing something that he wants to do. That's not always how love works. But it is the wrong system if you can't remove a man who just seems to... I mean, I'm not trying to diagnose him from afar but he's lost the acumen needed to

be on a public stage it's not there jane isn't it so i'm coming back after a nap and i would venture to suggest that if he's lost that acumen he might also have lost the power to be able to judge his own abilities spot on yeah that's it isn't? That's the problem. Sorry, I slipped off into that accent there. What was that? Inexcusable. Right. So we've come back to really lovely, lovely emails. Thank you for all of them. This one comes from Margaret.

It's entitled Accidental Encounters with Ex-Politicians. Years ago, a friend of mine was once doing some back-to-school shopping in W8 Smiths. She joined an unusually long queue at the counter, and it was only when she asked the man serving if he knew where the protractors were that she realised she was, in fact, in the queue for Geoffrey Archer doing a book signing. She could have been there for hours. Did she get the protractor? That's what we want. Protractors are things that never, ever enter your mind again after school,

unless you are a fully paid-up, 24-7 mathematician. But even they, would they use protractors in later life? I don't know. Can you remember cosine? No. Nope, we knew not. No, what are they? Oh, I don't know.

Oh, I see. When did you last measure an angle in your daily life? I think that's quite relevant, actually, measuring an angle. Yeah, especially if you want to do any kind of DIY or stuff. But some of the more advanced, I couldn't understand any of my daughter's GCSE maths. I apologise for that. I tell you what, Jane,

can I just clear up something about school uniform? Because we've had quite a few emails. Yeah, because you mentioned that in the live show at Sheffield, did you? Yes. So my campaign against school uniform, which I would seriously like to do in my third age, Jane's going to help me.

Lots of other people have come on board. Ian Dale's offered, actually. Has he? Yeah. It's not to ban school uniform at all. It's to change school uniform because quite a few people have written in to say, actually, if you ban school uniform,

it can create all kinds of problems in a school because then there's a competition about who's got the branded stuff. And, you know, kids who don't have as much money can feel very left out. And I really understand that argument. So it's not that. I would really like school uniform to change

so that it is not the sexualised outfit that is forced on particularly young boys and girls. So the short skirts and all of that kind of stuff, because we know that that's actually a category on quite a few adult websites. So I think we should just say goodbye to that. So it's to change school uniforms so that kids can wear something where they blend in an awful lot more.

So at the moment, I think it just would be hoodies and tracksuit bottoms. They feel more comfortable. You would be able to buy it very cheaply. You could still have insignia for your school if you wanted that. Personally, I think, especially in London and big cities cities that can create quite a lot of angst between schools because you get identified and all that kind of stuff so it's not to get rid of school uniform completely it's just to take away the body conscious nature of it and the very adult connotation that can sometimes go with it i think you've made that very clear. Thank you. And I'll be happy to support your campaign if I've got the time.

You'll be very busy getting drunk in a large French department store. But I won't, and it wasn't there that I got drunk. I found myself to be inebriated upon arriving there. I tell you what, there's very little stuff around about the Olympics in Paris I thought there'd be loads of stuff I bought a t-shirt it's rather lovely, you won't be surprised to hear the official Olympic

merch in Paris, it's rather nice but I didn't actually apart from one stall selling stuff, I didn't see anything at all so there we are just saying. But they've got a couple of weeks, 27th July, before it all kicks off. I was just trying to recall whether in London in 2012

we were bedecked for weeks beforehand, weren't we? I think so, but we were also very, very ambivalent. There was a lot of negativity until they started, and then there wasn't. Yeah, so maybe... So maybe they're in that phase now. Well, they've had a little bit of an election to think about as well, haven't they? But it's not a patch on ours. Ours is the big one.

Cruising, from Liz. I'm a bit behind, she says. Well, never mind. Jane ominously said that people go missing on cruises, and it did make me recall a story told to me by an american friend a couple of years ago a friend of hers was a travel agent oh yeah and was called by a lady looking for her husband who'd gone missing she had seen from his credit card bill that he'd used the travel agency and was looking for more information after a bit of investigation it turned out he had

actually booked a cruise with a lady who everyone on board the cruise had assumed as his wife. Well, it turns out he died on that cruise and his wife decided to have him buried at sea. The grieving widow promptly got off at the next stop. Intrigued to know what you two would have done if you'd found yourself in this situation. I'm going to put Fee on the spot here. Would you bury your lover at sea, Fee, and Scarpa, or would you do the right thing and confess all to his wife? I have asked my friends, says Liz.

Most opt to Scarpa, but a few did say they'd ring the wife anonymously. OK, well, they're brave. Gosh. So the bit that i don't understand yeah so so what then happened i mean it's because at some stage somebody must have informed the wife that the details are a trifle sketchy this is an email to our podcast from a woman who knows a woman who knew a woman who this happened to allegedly. I would definitely, definitely, definitely contact the wife. I couldn't

live without her in my conscience. Would you? No. I think you're probably right. And also because I just really properly don't believe in that karma thing. You know, I would have to fess up. What goes around comes around. Even in the middle of the Aegean, it'll find you.

I think so. Buried at sea. Oh, just fling him overboard and then she gets off the next boat. Blow the ashes back in your face, love. But that is quite a story, isn't it? That really is quite a story. We'll take more of those. They don't have to be true.

Well, it'd be nice if there was a grain of truth in them. Liz, thank you. Soggy towels. This one has the most extraordinary picture. Look at that. It's very passive, isn't it? Very engineering-based. Here we go. Binge listening to your podcast to catch up from a few weeks ago.

I'm now up to the fag end of May. I had to share this to save you both suffering the horror of damp towels when it's too hot to have the heating on. I was exciting to tell you, you need an electric hot rod. When we got our extension and new bathroom, I was determined not to suffer

this damp towel disgust anymore. Also determined not to have the 500 quid all-in bathroom the builder suggested. Sorry, definitely a bit shallow, but also someone who knows you get what you pay for. So determined to rid our house of soggy towels, I went researching and found these type of things, and it is. It's a Therma Heating Element Chrome, 600 watts, from screwfix.com.

Oh, I keep getting spam from them. I don't want to encourage Screwfix. Get a plumber in and get one stuck up your bathroom, towel rail style radiator awesome super dry towels you won't regret it can I just say that's actually a genuinely helpful email it is isn't it is it really easy to install though

I think Jane's going to have to watch an awful lot of men on YouTube instructing how to install this and I don't want to be responsible for the consequences because that's got electricity, it's got heat.

Yeah. You're going to need tools. But, I mean, if it works, I'm all for it. Do you know what? I think actually the 500 quid all-in bathroom, I mean, I think that's a low quote. 500 quid?

Yeah. That's very low. Yeah, it is, isn't it? If you could pass on the details of that build, I'd be very grateful. Probably won't pay in cash, I would imagine. That's Ash from Manchester who says, it's often quite damp up here, unlike my towels. I am incensed on a more or less daily basis by the damp towels

because also there are some residents of my homestead who will put a damp towel on top of a dry one. Honestly, I know it's First World. I know wars are raging, but really, it's not on. It's very difficult having children sometimes. Sometimes it's just so difficult to be me. I was thinking that on the way back from Paris on Saturday. Yes.

No, as I think we do say quite often, we're much blessed. We are. Now, would you like something about superglue and body parts? Yes, I think. Dear Jane O'Fee, on the subject, from a correspondent the other week, of superglue and penises. It reminded me of when I was working as a nurse on A&E and I had to glue a wound on a child's forehead. Unfortunately, I was a little cack-handed, it was my first time, and I managed to glue a wound on a child's forehead. Unfortunately I was a little cack-handed, it was my first time, and I managed to glue my glove to the forehead. I had to apologise profusely, cut the glove off and leave just the fingertips attached

with the promise they would eventually come off after that i learned to glue body parts without wearing gloves as to minimize the risk there was much less chance i would glue myself to the patient and have to go home with them love the show louise well louise we love you yeah it's just that is just fantastic i mean i don't think we didn't ever really get to the bottom of what the what happened to the poor man who'd super. No, we didn't. But incidents of that nature turn up at hospitals all over the world on a daily basis. We do know, don't we, the old,

I just fell onto it in the shower, all that stuff. And there will be many of you out there who have indeed encountered such realities as you go about your daily business. I just wanted to mention Rachel. I'm listening to the podcast from June the 20th, titled 60 is Just a Number. And I've heard Jane and Fee reading out the letter

from the woman who'd just gone through a divorce, had a child in lockdown, and who just felt a bit lost, fragile and alone. Well, I just wanted to tell her, you're not alone. I've just gone through the same thing at what sounds like roughly the same time. My child was born in late 2019. I separated from my ex in late 2022. It was incredibly hard. My ex already has a new partner and they're busy making plans. I've only just started to feel like the dust is settling. There are glimpses of hope, but I wanted to tell her

she is not on her own. So Rachel, thank you for that. And I hope the listener from that episode on June the 20th hears that and gets a little bit of comfort from it. Yeah, very much so. And I'm sure, I mean, there must be ways of finding communities around you of separated people. But I don't know. I was never a huge Facebook user but I'm sure that there are places that you can find people much more easily now I would think so I know that women with newborns have tremendous comfort these days from WhatsApp because if you're awake at 10 to 3 in the morning you can talk to someone can't you from your classes or whatever it is or somebody

you've met in the park or whatever. I mean, it's just so fantastic to be able to do that. So different, so different. I mean, I really am jealous of that because I think it would have been hugely supportive. Yep. Although there were some times when I really liked the feeling, not every night and actually not, you know, by month six,

but there were some times that I will always remember where I felt like it was me and my baby and we were just there in a very still world in the middle of the night i know what you mean i had occasional moments of sailing through the night yeah but then it was the next day that was horrendous okay you always pay for it somewhere um but i think those groups are very important because also um with regards to our correspondent who got divorced, I just think you don't, you know, you may never want to date again and you don't have to at all.

It might be your choice not to. But it would be good, wouldn't it, to be just part of a group of people experiencing the same thing without feeling that you were reaching out with that kind of end in mind. I think it's particularly hard when you feel that your ex may have moved on with astonishing speed and that then leaves you feeling somewhat marooned, particularly if there's a child involved.

So, anyway, we're here for you for what it's worth. Yeah, Rome wasn't built in a day, so we'll see how that one goes. How long did it take? Do you think that was a cash job? Well, I think it was due to be completed in august but it ran right on to october jane this one comes in from eleanor it's on a very similar theme uh i doubt this is for the radio but firstly i want to wish jane many happy returns of the day thank you keep those coming because you know no no you know when jane said that she just

didn't want to make anything of her birthday at all secondly i wrote to you around easter to bemoan my undateability as a single mother i was feeling very sorry for myself and eleanor says this fee delivered what i thought was a coded message for me encouraging the use of apps i often speak in code eleanor just to you so galvanized by the Glover, I dip my toe into dating. I've made a good friend on one date. And recently, I've met a man who is as eccentric as me in the best possible sense. And we're having a really lovely time. I genuinely have never felt so seen and appreciated. He's also in a similar situation as me with children, who we don't want to force into a blended family. I will keep you updated on how it progresses.

And I love that, Eleanor, because as we've said on the podcast a couple of times before, it does tend to be the shark's fin in the bay that comes up when anybody talks about dating later in life and when anyone talks about dating apps. You hear the really, really awful stories. And actually, I think sometimes when the algorithm works, it puts you in touch with people who you've got loads in common with, who you would never otherwise have met.

And it's a great thing. So I really hope that you just carry on having a lovely time. Yes, thank you for that. That is heartening to hear that. Glyn has got an idea for a TV show, a fly-on-the-wall documentary along the lines of Cruising with Jane MacDonald, but about celebrity window cleaners. Glyn would like to call it Up the Ladders With. Or it could possibly be a series of 10-minute shorts featuring Rob Brydon as the window cleaner,

visiting a different celebrity's gaff each episode and doing impersonations of said celebrity. Possible titles for this are You've Missed a Bit or Smears. Will I see you at the BAFTAs, says Glyn. I don't think so, Glyn, but he does say, secondly, if I'm ever at home when my window cleaner calls, I feel really awkward and I feel like I'm an exhibit in a human zoo.

What is your window cleaner etiquette for these situations? It's such a good question, Janine. It is a good question. I shared a window cleaner with a celebrity chef, as in Jonathan, who came to clean our windows, also went to clean... I'll just write it down because I'm not going to say it out loud.

Because I'm proud to say I share a window cleaner with Mr G Barlow. Well, there you go. Oh, yes. And he said that this guy who lived in a very big house with lots of windows would follow Jonathan round room to room. So the chef would be inside and he'd be outside cleaning all the windows. And whatever room he was cleaning,

the chef was inside making sure that he had done it up to his specification. And he said nobody else did that. No normal person did that. Normal? That's quite judgmental. He just stayed in one room. He didn't go and watch somebody work. Isn't that weird?

I think we need to own our own weirdness. I spend most of my time when my window cleaners call because he doesn't come alone. I talk to one of the window cleaners and the other two window cleaners set forth across my mansion okay do they bring somebody especially to chat to you maybe they do i think maybe they're part of social services when i think about it um but glenn suggests that you could play room roulette trying to second

guess which rooms windows they'll do next and move on beforehand through a nonsensical series of rooms so they can't see you are you good glenn is the opposite of your chef friend yeah but do you know i do get a bit of that that weird you know tidy up thing going on i mean i know that that's not what they've come to look at but i do have to go into every room before they get to the window and just do a quick tie-up because I don't like my reputation to suffer. You have got standards. Very, very high standards. You know I haven't,

God. Right, okay. So let's move on, why don't we, to our interview of the day, which is today with Geoff Norcott. Now, an incident occurs during this interview. It's actually quite funny because Geoff Norcott is Now, an incident occurs during this interview. It's actually quite funny. Because Geoff Norcott is a comedian.

He's a very funny man, very clever. And he's written a book called, oh, my God, what is it called? It's called The British Bloke Decoded. That's it. And I've read it. I wouldn't mind. I've read it. And it's a book about, I mean, I honestly could describe it as a very enjoyable guide to the beauty of the bloke.

So we're not talking about nasty men. We're not talking about the kind of men that we regularly carp about. We're talking about the much more common sort of male, the bloke, who is, let's be honest, like most women, decent, dependable, kind, thoughtful, occasionally a bit irritable. And quite knackered, but trying very hard. And quite knackered, but trying hard. So Geoff wanted to celebrate them,

and he certainly does that in this book. So here we go. Stay with us from right till the end. You'll see why. Catch up with you then. I was going to say, I am very welcome, but that's very entitled and exactly the kind of thing that I'm trying not to perpetuate.

Damn it. Exactly. Geoff's new book is called The British Bloke Decoded. Now, actually, you make some serious points in what is a very funny and readable book, Geoff, I have to say. But you're keen to point out there's a huge difference between men, the kind of men that women often do complain about, and I absolutely include myself,

and blokes who are, in many cases, the backbone of family units, friendship groups, you could go so far as to say the whole nation. So I'm just going to give you a couple of moments where you just celebrate the British bloke. This does feel like the bit, you know, the end of the election debates where they just get a chance to talk straight to camera and just hammer home one message.

And the message I would like to hammer home is this. On Thursday, in the privacy of the booth, vote bloke. I think that bloke, man is the species and bloke is the breed. That's the way that I would put it. And I think that there's different breeds. There's geezer. Everyone will know the geezer with his sort of head bobbing like a pigeon who arrives in situations and has to dominate from the first minute.

You know, you've got the chap, you've got the dapper gentleman gentleman there's all these kind of different breeds but i think the bloke is just the rank and file really is this all these sort of quiet dependable people just trying to be like a calm presence for the people that they love admittedly often a bit useless on some things like remembering birthdays or one thing i do think is if any bloke has got a male friend who has more than two children remembering the third one's name is always a bit tricky it's probably it's probably asking too much so let's just be realistic but um but yeah I suppose it is supposed to be a light-hearted book and and but as you rightly say there's a slight undertone which is a more sympathetic stock take of the kind of uh British bloke, you know, generally.

Yeah. The thing is, I'm going to take issue with only one thing about blokes, which is that you tend to regard yourselves as uncomplicated. And I would venture to suggest that it's not up to you to decide what's uncomplicated and what isn't. And that you can't assume that you're the default and that actually anyone who's lived with a bloke would say that they were far from uncomplicated. Discuss. I think that's a fair point. It's one of the things I've been saying in the stand-up is that men often say that women are confusing.

Oh, she does my head in. I don't know what she wants on any given day. But I think there's aspects of male behaviour which are baffling to women. One is that I guess we often want rewards for doing housework. If we're honest, I know there's probably a lot of progressive men listening who would just go, hey, that's my job. But deep down, there's a part of them that wants a medal.

There is. And it's better to just admit that you want the medal and deal with that reality. I mean, it's weird. I don't know if it's how we were raised. We were just overly celebrated for minor things. But we want the medal, And let's have that conversation. Maybe, as I recommend in the book, maybe keep a little stash of plastic medals to just dish out the menial tasks.

It works, by the way. It really works. It does. A lot of feedback. It genuinely does. And also, there's another thing that I discuss, which I think is interesting, is hero daydreams. It's one of the chapters in the book. And I don't know, you know, if you're in a relationship with a man,

is that quite often we'll just sit there and think of a situation kicking off and think how we'll sort it out, right? So if you're out in London, you're at a comedy club, you say, well, if something wrong came in with a weapon, how would I sort this out? And you'll go right through all of the stages of this conflict. But it essentially comes from a good place, which is how would I protect the person that I love? i think that again not exclusive to men but provide and protect like they're the two pillars of kind of masculinity if we had a club badge that would be the two

things in latin how tall are you jeff not tall enough um by but the average height for a uk male i would say but no one believes that i just don't't. You know, the sad thing is, is that I don't, I'm five foot nine, but I don't even give off the energy of a five foot nine man. I don't somehow radiate the inner confidence of a guy. Because I'm quite wide and barrel chested. But one of the chapters is about tall privilege. You know, like there are, if you look at political leadership all around the world, you know, tall people, tall men in particular,

have got a greater chance of getting voted in. So I think that we have focused, obviously, on the pressure on women to look good and, you know, style, fashion, make-up and stuff. But if you look at dating websites, there are a lot of women that set the benchmark for dating men at six foot. And six foot is not the average.

And I realise that, as I say, it's not the average. I just sound shorter and shorter as I essentially complain about it. My statuesque colleague, I think, would like to make a point. Well, I just slightly dispute the point about tall men having the advantage in politics because France has had some notoriously short men in charge. Nicolas Sarkozy, I think, was, what, five, six,

on a good built-up shoe day popular with the ladies on a stacked heel rishi sunak i think has been uh rather unfairly targeted and caricatured for being small i'm not sure i mean you know there are the terribly the the very notorious figures in history uh you know who've been shorter than the average male and done terrible things probably because of that. So I don't know about that. But obviously, as a very short woman, the difference is that Jane and I can milk that

in an affectionate way, can't we? But a short man can't. Yeah, petite is a good word for a woman. Petite for a man is not a good word. I mean, Sunak, I don't know if this week of all weeks is the greatest time to give Sunak as an example of a world leader that's facing enthusiastic re-election. I mean, Napoleon apparently was 5-9, you know, according to him.

Oh. According to him. Which a lot of people don't think. Yeah, I think what Macron possibly proves, and again, not a great week for him, but is that you're actually better off going shorter, right? Because then it really does become part of your personality, like Danny DeVito or somebody like that.

I think, if anything, there's something about being around about 5'7", 5'8", 5'9", is you sort of glimpse the promised land. You just agonise. There's actually a report that I cite in the book that suggests that men of that height are actually more depressed about their height than men who are a lot shorter. So maybe it's that.

It's just, it's false hope. It's being that close to it. I do love that, Geoff, a glimpse of the promised land. That's fantastic. Of being average height, yeah. Yeah, you do talk about, as I said, some serious stuff, including men's relationship with their own health and starting with quite simple stuff like the real reluctance to apply sun cream because it's just regarded by some men as faintly woozy. Why is that?

It's interesting. I mean, like I'm not giving men a free pass in this, but there are certain behaviours, you know, how we relate to our friends, you know, how much we keep up with each other's lives. And the application of sun cream is a good metaphor. I found out that the majority of men think that men's skin is more resistant to UV light than women's. I mean, it's just absolutely ridiculous. There's no reason to think this. There's no evidence for it whatsoever.

And the sort of serious truth is that because men are are actually more outdoorsy doing sport more often doing more sort of manual labor outside we're exposed to sun more often so the takeaway is that we're equally as vulnerable to it but we tend to be in it more often and you know i've just i've actually just finished recording a radio show for radio four which goes out mid-july called jeff norcott's working men's club which is part i'm just trying to create a blokeosphere you know you know you've got of, I'm just trying to create a bloke-osphere. You know, you've got the man-osphere. I'm trying to do a slightly lower testosterone version of that. But we did a whole episode on this.

And, you know, it was interesting that I, since that show, have started using it routinely on my forearms and face because, yeah, men are more likely to get skin cancer and more likely for it to be diagnosed at a later stage. I'm sure you, like I, have delighted in those images of the blokes who left the England game early on Saturday evening. And there's the fella who's vaping, he's with his mate. They've had enough because England were truly terrible

and they missed the Bellingham goal. Just, what, is that blokery? Or is that a bloke fail? What is that? That is a bloke fail. That's not a good bloke. I mean, look, it's really complicated. I'd say that there are rules.

If it's the team that you watch week in, week out, and it's a league game, and you're 3-0 down at half-time at home, you go, you know what, not this week. But I would say, on a practical level, getting all the way to Germany, you know, you might as well, a tournament only to Germany, you know, you might as well. A tournament only happens once every four years.

You might as well see it out because facing defeat and taking it in good grace. You know, my mum always used to say to me, you know, it would be magnanimous in victory and magnificent in defeat. I always thought that was a really good thing. But just to sort of strop out of there on your peach vape, sucking on it as you sort of stomp your way towards a german tram it's uh it's it's not the most grown-up behavior and um yeah i mean i sort of feel for them a bit going viral because that will if that will forever be who they are now it's oh stroppy old stroppy's it you know

well but yeah you do talk a lot about male humor i mean I mean, banter is an overused word, and people use it as a kind of judgment, don't they? And they shouldn't. And that isn't to say that female friends can't do banter, but the male version of banter, it's quite a rich territory, isn't it, for you? Well, yeah, it's like nicknames. I think that this is one thing that's actually quite healthy.

There's obviously a limit to it, but a lot of blokes will have an unflattering nickname. And it's a way of your, it's like any new family. You want to name your child. So when you enter a friendship group, you're like, no, we're going to give you a name here. You know, I've had some unflattering ones in my time that I probably couldn't broadcast here,

but they can be really interesting. I mean, I had a mate that was called Gary because he looked like another lad in the group that was called gary who we then had to rename original gary so original gary was really upset that he wasn't even like the for the foremost gary within the group he felt usurped in a way but just explaining like if you ever particularly with working class blokes if you ever just if you ever bored just say have any of your friends got nicknames and just watch them sort of lean into these sort of explanations of how they came about those names.

I think there's a point where you're testing each other a little bit and keep making sure no one's head gets too big. But one of the things that I sort of say in the book is it may be over the years we haven't always got the balance of, you know, if you've got a new nickname for your mate, but you don't know the name of his second wife for example that's probably not the right balance or indeed the third one and you weren't even aware that the second marriage had ended well it's worse if the bloke can't remember the name of his second wife isn't it could i just ask you about beta males please jeff because jane

and i've talked about this uh quite a bit actually on our podcast and when we've done live shows and stuff and actually surely the secret to solving some of the real problems of toxic masculinity is just to be able to better celebrate the beta male not the chest beating alpha male but here's the quandary how do you celebrate the type of person who's defined by the characteristic of not wanting to be celebrated? It's tricky. You're absolutely right. A surprise birthday party for that kind of bloke often doesn't play out that well. I mean, that's just, you know, the guy that is willing to go up the recycling centre and for that to be the best part of his weekend. You know, someone needs to be that guy, the guy that even as kids are unwrapping

christmas presents is thinking about how can i get this wrapping paper away what's the earliest point at which i could intervene when does that recycling center open you know the dads the dads that are chauffeuring to airports all of these jobs that i think that we you know there is a cultural tendency to celebrate mothers more if you look at like mother's day cards it'll be you know thank you for making me the person i was then and am today and you know you're here i'm on whereas dad's it's just like it's just a golf club an image of a golf club on the front and for some reason a 1950s sports car is like uh i have a pint you know it's just it's a bit straight away so so some of it you're right it's it's celebrating you know i suppose over the

recent years we've had these kind of alpha males, these very noisy males that we've celebrated for being dominant. Yeah, they need to go, Geoff. They're doing so much harm to the world, to our young people. They're horrible. Well, they, but they are, you know, they always have some message that they're right about, 90% of the stuff that they're wrong about, you know.

But there'll be some simple thing that younger people, younger males in particular will go, well, he's saying that and he's the only one say that. And I know that that's a fact, but it just needs more. I think decent blokes to, to, to speak up and try and claim that space. I mean, one of the things that I do in the book is I have the heroes of modern blokery. And I think, you know, Adrian Charles, Bob Mortimer.

I mean, these are the people that we should really celebrate. I mean, some of Adrian Charles' columns, one of them was about having a urinal in his house. You know, the time when everyone else in that newspaper was writing about... Geoff, I'm going to intervene. We're not going to talk about... You don't want to picture that.

No, I'm afraid just on behalf of the sisterhood, we don't want to picture that. No, I'm afraid just on behalf of the sisterhood, we don't want to talk about Adrian Charles'. It's interesting though. You say urinal, I say urinal. Let's get the whole thing on. Geoff, just really briefly before we have to go, how is Britain's only right-leaning comedian spending Thursday night?

Thursday night, I'm doing a gig in Richmond, so I might have to go on stage straight after finding out the exit poll. I mean I've spent the last couple of years in a very much none of the above state worried about a really really large majority but just fascinated really

I mean politics has become like a form of entertainment for me so I'm looking for great content. Geoff Norcott, who has since been arrested. No, no, he hasn't been arrested. And I think it's always worth saying that there's absolutely, he could not possibly have known that the man he was going to celebrate in,

I think quite a lot of detail, was in fact someone that I've been married to. I mean, what are the chances? And in fairness to my former husband he did send me a birthday card oh that's lovely so that is nice he also bought me an extremely small cactus oh gosh no not one of those tiny comedy ones that could have come out of a cracker i don't know whether that was code for something or what i was supposed to say about it but i was you know more or less grateful. So, yeah, it was just quite funny. Well, it was funny, but I did feel, and you may not have wanted me to really dive in,

but I just thought before he said something that would be, that just could be difficult to get out of, it was best to say goodbye. Bye, Jeff, lovely. Great, it was really good up until that point. I don't think so. He blew it. When you were at Radio Presenter School, that's not an example that would come point. I don't think so. He blew it. When you were at radio presenter school,

that's not an example that would come up. No, it's not. But I think you did very well. You're immensely capable. I mean, in fairness, there is a whole chapter in this book celebrating you, which I did think was funny. Obviously, I know. I mean, there are all...

Look, like I said at the beginning, everybody's got their strengths, V. Oh, I know, there are all... Look, like I said at the beginning, everybody's got their strengths fee. Oh, I know, and their weaknesses too. Yeah. Now, we are hoping to do, during the course of this week, well, tomorrow, we're doing any question you like on the election on The Times radio show. So could you email them in to...

Jane and Fee at times.radio. And we really do mean it, any question at all. We've got an economics expert, we've got Oliver Wright, who's the policy editor of The Times with us, and they will answer anything you like about how elections work, how postal votes work, because there's some interesting stuff coming out about postal votes, isn't there?

Yeah, and I've got a question, actually, that couldn't really be answered by some quite well-educated and experienced journalists just about the handover um with the civil service and we ended up having a slightly kind of um uh well yes an unsubstantiated conversation about who knows what when because obviously i i thought that you didn't as an incoming government have access to all of the details of policy that the previous civil servants have been working with but I've been corrected on that by by people who've said no of course they would have been in meetings already

so when you become health secretary you don't suddenly walk in on you know Friday July the 6th presumably a little bit tired and maybe even hung over and get a hospital suddenly you think what's a hospital exactly how many have we got but it's but stuff like that so if you want it to just be unpicked a bit um you know the whole democratic process as well when you know the tax pledges that have been made when would they be affected all of that type of stuff then we've got people who can really answer those questions. Yeah. And we are going to be at different locations on Thursday night, but we are hoping to do an edition of Off Air on Thursday, which, because of the rules, will have to be entirely politics-free.

But we can talk about our situations, because you'll probably be in a hotel room in Yorkshire, and I will be just about to hot foot my way down to godalming in surrey so we can compare how we're going to stay awake until four in the morning i mean that's the big thing isn't it well not for me love i mean as you know i'm wild party animal so it's just another thursday okay it's a very big thing for me um so we're going to talk about all those type of things and we'll try and make it entertaining for you can't really guarantee that well we'll try we'll try very hard but do keep all of your emails coming and especially if you have thoughts about well

we're trying to do politicians that you've met in strange circumstances i think we may have got to the end of soggy towels but i'd be interested in people's thoughts about travel and tourism and turbulence and aircraft. And when it stops, at some stage it's got to stop, Jane. You can't do another 100 years of this, you know, I think. Would you agree? Well, travel at the moment for me is confined to my entirely free use, thanks to my vintage of London public transport. Did you come in for free?

Absolutely. Did you? And I'm going home for free. Did that feel good? Feels absolutely amazing. Do you know what? You have had a slightly nicer mood on today, actually. See?

The secret to it. Everything is free. Right, it's been lovely. Nice to see you back. Nice to be back. That's a bit useless. Oh, yes, nice to be back. No, nice to have you. Anyway, bye.

Bye. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at three o'clock, Monday until Thursday, every week. And you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day,

as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing with us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.