Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Euston toilets, we have a problem

Episode Date: April 29, 2025

Fi's off today on important business, so Jane M is here! Normal schedule resumes tomorrow... whatever that means. Today, Jane and Jane chat power outages, Björn Ulvaeus, and Euston toilets. Plus, Jane speaks with David Collins, Northern Editor of The Sunday Times, about his book 'Saffie', which tells the story of the youngest victim of the Manchester Arena terror attack and her family's fight for justice. If you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is: Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFSend your suggestions for the next book club pick!If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Mum's all bare, Dad's all bare, The kids are stark as two. Grandad thought he'd have a peep, I never thought she'd have the blooming cheek. My old Nan, didn't she look a peach, Wobbling down to the water on the bright and nudist beach. The sun is beating down, it's Tuesday and Jane Mulcairons joins us from, well what is presumably, is it gorgeous Brighton today, how is it? Oh it's scorchio down here today Jane, it's really beautiful. I'm very resentful that I have to work at my desk. I'm looking out on my little terrace which is just, I mean, sun dappled at this point but it will be scorched in about an hour. And this morning at 6.15 I went on a

walk through the Bluebell Woods up on the South Downs with my friend and her dogs. Oh Jane, gosh that's gorgeous. What are the dogs called? The dogs called Bo and Roscoe, a golden lab and a black lab and they're wonderful and nuts. Good. It's a beautiful start to the day. Bluebells are absolutely, well are they completely bursting at the moment? It's just fields of bluebells on the South Downs, yes. It is bucolic I would say.

Before we launch into our own emails today, but being as it is a very hot day, I would just like to read you an email of warning that I got this morning, which gives you a flavour of the sort of emails that I get on the Times Magazine. This is, there's sexual health expert warns against insertable ice lollies. Sorry, this was, it's from a PR company is it this? From a PR company, yep. They say good morning, it's a bright sunny day and as the United Kingdom is set to see temperatures up to 28 degrees C and a mini heat wave this week, Lovehoney's resident sexual health expert issues a strict warning against the internal use of ice lollies.

There's a Q&A, a really helpful Q&A, should you definitely not insert ice lollies in your vagina? Well you definitely shouldn't do it. Sorry, is that the over... I don't want too much detail, you'll be amazed to hear. There is a chunky paragraph but the basis... I could summarise it, no. Right, okay, thank you very much Doctor. I've taken, I will be taking that advice. Did you say the company was... I never thought about it. Yeah, well, stop thinking about it now. The company is Love Honey, is it? Is that the

one? Yes. Yeah, it's funny, I do know, I have got a friend who, her kids when they were students did shifts there, packing goods. Oh, wow. her kids when they were students did shifts there, packing goods. And you know, you'll be amazed to hear that within about half an hour, the idea of laughing at anything is just you're just not interested anymore. It's just like, oh yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, we'll get this in a box and send it out. Okay, that's your thing. Good luck to you. The novelty

does wear off. Oh, yes, I can imagine. Yeah, when you're packing a lot of strange shaped things. Yeah. Okay. Now, I have been boring everybody in my life senseless with my instruction to buy a battery operated radio. Have you got one, Jane? Do you know what? I don't have one, Jane. I did have one in New York as part of a kit I was sent in the pandemic, you know, a kind of disaster survival kit. But I think I got rid of everything. Well, I pushed everything I owned out the window before I left. So I don't have one and I think they are a very, very good idea, Jane. Well, they are a good idea, Jane. And I have already put on my family WhatsApp group details that my

daughters seem completely unmoved by, just reminding them, in fact telling them, that I have bought both of them a battery operated radio that they must keep and cherish forever and spare batteries as well, just to have it with them because of what happened yesterday. And if you're listening in future times, we are the day after the peculiar power loss, I think peculiar is probably an OK adjective, across the Iberian Peninsula, I just like saying that, Spain and Portugal, some parts of France. And it is odd, isn't it? It's quite interesting for us watching what goes on. But the impact on daily life was just colossal. And I do find our incredible trust in and dependence upon

things staying as they are just ludicrous. We just can't be that confident that we'll always have everything at our fingertips, can we? No, absolutely not. No, everyone should have a torch, some matches, some candles, a wind up radio, ideally their own well. Yeah, all those things. Sort it out this afternoon, everyone. No, I'm serious. Sort it and get cash. Always have about what you think is a good sum in cash somewhere in your house. 200 quid, I would say, maybe if you can. And stick it in an envelope, remember where you put it and just know that it's there. That's all

you need to do. What's the cash for? What's the cash for? When you can't use Contactless. You couldn't yesterday. Oh, okay. Of course you couldn't know. That happens quite often in the M&S at London Bridge to be honest. Yes, it's happening at the moment in Superdrug at London Bridge station as well. And there's also a cyber attack on M&S online. I mean, can I just say I'm one of many, many

hundreds of thousands of middle-aged women anxious to get my hands on some more M&S online. I mean, can I just say I'm one of many, many hundreds of thousands of middle-aged women anxious to get my hands on some more M&S goods. I was about to buy another mismatching bikini for my many weekends away in May, but I can't do it right now. I have to go to Bowdoin. Well, and that's why M&S will be seething about this and will want this sorted out ASAP. And I wish them all the best doing it because there are many of us with a kind of weird affection for that shop that doesn't really bear all that much scrutiny except that I've always just been very loyal to it and I love it and I can't really explain why. Yeah they do have random flashes of brilliant seasoned dresses but then they don't have

another one for about seven years. Yeah, but it's like man you. It's the cotton gussets and the salmon slices that I'm there for. Just mentioning what happened yesterday in Spain and Portugal, Caroline is in Lisbon. She's on a mini break in Lisbon, which today was hit by those 12 hour power cuts. As we walked through the streets planning how far we could stretch the small amount of cash we had left, Jane's battery-operated radio popped into my head,

a device that really would have been useful today. I hadn't considered the consequences of such a long power cut. Shops and restaurants shut, people queuing down the street to spend precious cash at tiny corner shops to just get some picky bits for dinner. Phone networks down, no communication, no news, all a bit disconcerting. Cheers in the streets though as the power came back on around 10 o'clock at night. We'd just gone to bed before nine as without candles our evening entertainment of quiet

reading was curtailed once the sun had gone down. Then only to sit looking out of the window at the Swift, squealing around the rooftops. It was actually a lovely end to the day. Fingers crossed for tomorrow, a more traditional holiday day of tapping one's debit card on locally made treasures, cold beer, pastries and a good fish supper. But I'll tell you one thing says Caroline I'll be buying a battery radio as soon as I get home. Well yeah Caroline honestly every household should have one it's as simple as that. Yeah I did send a message actually inquiring as to whether the everything was back and sorted in Spain because I'm going to Véhe de la Frontera on Friday for the weekend to my friend's apartment. I think it's all okay,

but I was hearing some terrible stories on the radio this morning about, you know, all the hire cars being nowhere to be seen. So anyway, we'll see. But my friends don't need to wind up radio because they've got me, you know. That was just my chilling laugh. I mean, you don't need any other entertainment when you've got Amal Kerens in the house. Exactly. I was going to say your friends don't need one either Jane because they've got you. That is true. I want to bring in Nicky. She says as an extremely lapsed Catholic who grew up on Merseyside I too got mildly excited last week when I heard that Cardinal Nicholls hailed from the area. I fell into a bit of a Google hole looking him up and

discovered that his first job was as chaplain to my sixth form college, which was in Wigan. Then discovered that the said college was actually the first Catholic sixth form college in the UK. I got no idea about that either. I paid little heed to my faith at the time, apart from being resentful that we had an hour of RE forced on us every week. However, conclave-wise, I am battling for Pierre Batzier Pizzaballa, based purely on the man's name. Same, same. I just want us all to have to say it for many years to come. Let's try that again because I don't think I did it justice. Pierre Batista Pizzaballa.

I tell you what, yeah, I'd vote for him. No idea what his credentials are, but if he's a cardinal, I was going to say, I suppose he can't be all bad, but look, we know that that might not necessarily be true. But as I said earlier, I think it might have been yesterday. I think if we get a Scouse Pope Pope I just think Merseyside could completely explode, but in a good way. And do you remember when John Paul II came to Britain? No, I don't remember it. I remember seeing pictures of it after the event. Not the same thing, is it? No, it isn't, because I'm not Catholic, I have no faith at all, but I went with my schoolmate

and stood in the street outside the Anglican Cathedral because he did a trip down Hope Street, went between the two, the Catholic Cathedral first and then to the Anglican Cathedral later. I think it was that way around. And the crowd was, it was just, we had such a good day out and I'm a big fan of not just watching stuff on the telly, but if you can, going there. And there was something funny about it. But unfortunately, just before the Pope arrived from sort of at our vantage point,

a busload of reverends of some sort or another slightly blocked our view. And I'm afraid they just got dogs abused from the crowd. There was very, very very little respect but hey. We had a wonderful postcard last week while you're away which was of Nock Airport. Well it wasn't the airport, they bought it in Nock Airport I think and it had been there a while I think since 1993 or something but I didn't realize until I read, I don't know why I read this this weekend,

but Knock Airport was built for that Pope's visit. Yeah, I didn't know that. Well, Ireland... I don't think they've updated the toilets since, I have to say. No, but actually that reminds me, can I just say they've finally done something about the toilets at Euston Station in London. So I did use them the other day after a trip from Liverpool back to London and I was really tired and I was dreading going to the loo because they have been diabolical, certainly for the last five or six years. Anyway, they've had a refurb and there were some very diligent people out with their mops in the loo as well, keeping

it very spruce. So I have seen you, I have acknowledged the progress you've made, thank you for making those toilets a lot better. There we go, I bet they feel so much. I bet they just, well, they must be just so grateful. Is it network rail that controls infrastructure at stations? I never know. Oh, I don't know. No, I don't know, wherever it is anyway.

Yeah, thank you for doing that. The verbal equivalent of a large tip. Staying with icons. Dear Jane and Fee, hello, I hope this finds you well. I was interested in Miss Mulcairn's referencing her interview with Bjorn from ABBA. How, says our listener, would I find out more about his democracy education program and how would a headteacher register interest in his or her school? This is from Charlotte

who says, I didn't know much about Benny or Bjorn, in truth which one is which, or even which Abba girl which one was previously married to. And I would be very sad to find out if Bjorn was a secret weirdo. I don't think he is Charlotte, from what I can gather, but yeah, we don't know everything. As this democracy education endeavour sounds really, really very excellent, despite being an undisputed granddad, kids under 10 still very much know his music and they'll dance to it with no sense of irony, says Charlotte.

I find this very strange as my contemporaries and I would never have boogied on down to Vera Lynn when we were that age. Music that was 50 years old then as Abba's first hits are 50 years old now. The point being, says Charlotte, I don't think he's misguided in thinking that he does have a platform with modern children

to communicate these important messages and ideas. Charlotte says, there's much I want to say to my kids about democracy. How severely cheesed off I am about Father of Seven, just reminding you, Elon Musk, popping out to buy a major social media platform with 18 months to go before the US election, so he could essentially, says Charlotte, not that says me, determine said election's outcome.

The fact we've got the same MP in my constituency that we've had since I was a child. He came to my primary school as a newly elected MP when I was in the same school year that my eldest daughter is in now. I believe that it's the same constituency that was held by his wife's grandfather previously. Personally speaking, I would never bring myself to not go out to vote. However, this makes no real sense when, as I've never voted for this aforementioned piece of gammon, my vote has never meaningfully counted where we live.

This is very much, says Charlotte, just the tip of the iceberg. Now more than ever, there's so much to say about democracy, but I didn't write knowing me knowing you. Aha. So Charlotte, I just want to say, I've got your email address and I'll send it on to the person who I set up the interview with Bjorn from and I'll try and find out how you do actually set up, you know, Bjorn coming and telling kids about democracy because I know he is genuinely desperate to do it whenever he's wanted and wherever he's wanted so we'll see what we can do.

Right, well, I guess I hope she takes you up on that because I think that would be brilliant. Yeah, do it. And can I just thank long-time listener, that's how they describe themselves, Elaine from Guildford who has sent us just the most lovely and I'm going to say slightly haunting postcards. We've had postcards from all over the world but Elaine, yours are just remarkable. She's written a letter and says, on the 1st of February my dear dad passed away at the age of 98 and whilst going through his belongings I found a number of postcards from the First World War. I had seen the cards before but not for many years. I've sent you two to add to your postcard collection. They are cards sent to my grandmother who would have been about

15 or 16 at the time from her brother whilst he served as an officer in France spending a lot of time in the trenches. I thought you'd particularly like the one with the kitten. And there is one that is just a beautiful black and white rather melancholic shot of a tiny, tiny kitten in what looks like a female hand. Elaine goes on, you'll notice he signed the cards Wink. That was his nickname, but I never found out why. Henry was actually his real name. I think his handwriting is beautiful and I cannot imagine what the conditions were like when he was writing to his young sister back in the East End. I have many more of these wonderful cards which I will always treasure

and one day pass on to my daughter. Elaine, thank you so much and let me just read you the card which is the other one from Wink, which is what he called himself. Dear Mabel, another addition for the album. I hope you are still busy and trying to keep smiling, writes Wink from the trenches in the First World War. And that card was dated the 24th of August 1916. Oh, wow. I know. I mean, absolutely. Wow.

And that image is of a beautiful little girl with a basket of flowers and she's wearing a pink dress but it's a sort of, it's a black and white image but it's been slightly colourised and the dress is pink. I don't, I mean honestly Elaine I think we should send these cards back to you because I think they belong to you and your family and in the future to your daughter but I'm very grateful to you because it's such a glimpse into somebody's world and life and I mean what as you say it's that contrast between the information and the beautiful images he was sending his sister back home and what he was living through I mean just incredible what courage thank you Elaine very much for that. I'm just gonna completely lower the tone after that very moving email.

Dear Fee and whichever Jane writes another Jane. It's only hurtful. There have been so many times. It's two Janes. But as Fee said last week, there's always a Jane, which is true. Yeah. Well, it's like an emergency. You can just break the glass and you'll find a Jane. Probably. With a wind-up radio. Yes, yes and a Swiss army knife. Right, carry on. There have been so many times

when I've almost written to you lately so I wonder what it says about me that this is the idea I muttered to myself all the way home to remember until I got to my laptop keyboard. Jane M. and Fee discussed beachy nudism on Thursday, very briefly I would like to say, Jane G. As soonee discussed beachy nudism on Thursday, very briefly I would like to say Jane G. As soon as one of them said Brighton, a song came plunging into my brain, fully formed, back from the depths of my memory. Richard Stilgo wrote it for the BBC Tea Time favourite Nationwide in the 1970s, when that town declared a section of its beach to be set aside for nudists. There was no video or iPlayer in those days, so I can only have ever heard it and

seen it once more than 40 years ago. But here are the words and I promise you I could still sing the tune if you asked me. Now, fortunately for everyone, I don't know the tune, so I won't sing it for you. But I'll just do a dramatic reading of the words, if that's OK. And I, you know, I'd like to just tell you, well, I'm in Brighton, so this is a very authentic, dramatic reading of the Brighton that's okay. And I'd like to just tell you what I'm in Brighton so this is a very authentic dramatic reading of the Brighton nudist song. Mum's all bare, dad's all bare, the kids are stark as two. Grandad thought he'd have a peep. I never thought he'd have the blooming cheek. My old nan, didn't she look a peach, wobbling down to the water on the Brighton nudist beach.

a peach wobbling down to the water on the Brighton nudist beach. So I think that tells you what I'll be hurrying my work to finish doing today. Yeah, well, is there a nudist beach in Brighton? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, a sizable nudist beach. It's actually great. On a day like today, it will be packed. And yeah, you sort of, you, it's quite far down the beach away from the pier and the sort of, you know, the more heavily visited areas of the beach. So you have to know where you're going and you have to sort of, you know, make a plan for it. But it's hidden slightly behind sort of, they've made a bit of a hill of shingles so that, you know, people can't just ogle from the road.

Yeah. But people still walk along an ogle. Well, of course, I mean, to be honest, I got to say, I mean, if I were a teenager now in Brighton, let's say I was an intrepid 14-year-old and I wanted to get my mates together, get a few cans of cider and go and have a gulp and young Eve is listening and she's going bright red and laughing. So I think, frankly, she did it. Yes. Well, knowing that Eve grew up here, I'm sure she might have done something similar to that once or twice.

Yeah. Right. Indeed. I'm afraid to say she looks guilty as far as I can make out. I've got a quick question for you, because in the news today, the Conservative party leader here, Kimmy Badenock, has been talking about mammograms and has said that she, that there's a suggestion that because there's often, you know, people party leader here, Kemi Badenoch, has been talking about mammograms and has said that there's a suggestion that because there's often, you know, people can't get mammograms and it would help if men would be allowed to do them in the UK. The breast screening checks. At the moment, and I didn't realize this, only women are allowed to do mammograms.

So Kemi Badenoch has said no, she'd prefer certainly a woman to do a mammogram for her. And I've just been on Time's Radio talking to Hugo Rifkind about what's on the program on the radio this afternoon between two and four, get the Time's Radio app. And Hugo said that he is, and I thought this is a really interesting point. He said he's in the camp of men who like to pretend they don't mind whether it's a woman or a man doing an intimate medical examination, but in truth, he'd prefer it if in his case it were a man. And I sort of get that because I would say before I had this conversation with Hugo, oh, I don't care whether it's a woman or a man. But actually, I think I probably would prefer a woman to carry out those sorts of things.

So a mammogram, oddly, I don't think I'd mind if it was a man. Other gynecological procedures, I would much rather it was a woman. I had to have quite an extensive one a little while ago, which was quite painful. And yeah, I definitely was glad that it was an all-female crew, I have to say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still thinking it over. I don't know if that's the rule or not with gynecological things, but I think it is.

Well, that's a really good point. I've never had a smear carried out by a man. No. But I'm assuming. But I've never had a smear carried out by a man. No. But I'm assuming but I've also but I've had examinations gynecological examinations carried out by men without question. So I'm just trying to trying to think. I think actually when I when I was doing IVF there were male doctors who I saw as well as female doctors but at my local hospital when I've sort of been for things and my doctors when I've been to the GPs for things like smear tests, I've only ever had

women. Yeah. And I think if they asked me, I think back to your question, if they, you know, if they said, Oh, you're seeing a man today, I'd say that's fine. Yes, he said so would I. I don't want to be that woman. But we're in that kind of helpful British Oh, yes. Which Oh, it's just a bloke off street? Is it? Oh, I'm sure I'll be absolutely fine. I mean, we should all ask for their qualifications actually proof that they are indeed medical. Anyway, well, let's put it out there and see what people say. Jane and Fee at times.radio. Jane, thank you very much for helping us out today. Really appreciate it. Fee is,

actually, she's on a charity mission doing good works today but she'll definitely be back tomorrow so rest assured she's not poorly, that's not what's happening. Jane thank you, have a lovely day in the sunshine. Thank you and you. Now I hope you have 10 minutes or so to listen to our next conversation because it's hugely important. It's with David Collins, Northern Editor of the Sunday Times and author of a very, very touching and at times really incisive but also frankly terrifying book about the Manchester Arena attack. It's called Saffy, the youngest victim of the Manchester terror attack and her family's fight for justice. of the Manchester terror attack and her family's fight for justice. Now you will recall, I'm sure, that it was in 2017 that a bomb exploded at Manchester Arena as young fans tried to leave an Ariana Grande concert.

22 people were killed and the youngest victim was a girl of eight, Safi Rose Roussos. Her mother Lisa had the most terrible injuries but did survive. Lisa's other daughter Ashley was also hurt. And this book, Safi, is written by David but also with the help of Andrew and Lisa Rusos. David, good afternoon to you. Good afternoon Jane, thanks for your words. Well I really, enjoyment is not the right term but this is such an, it really is an important book and people, I hope many people read it and I hope we all learn something from it. Can you explain first of all how you won the trust of Safi's mum and dad?

Yeah so Andrew and Lisa who I guess I know I would count as friends so you know I've been kind of based in Manchester for about seven or eight years. I actually came up just after the arena attack happened. So I was posted up there because of it, really. And we had this huge, long public inquiry into what happened and the reasons behind the bomb and the attack and where we heard the evidence of the emergency services and MI5 and all those people. And it was really, I wrote a series of kind of in-depth articles for the Sunday Times and for a lot of them I go to Andrew and Lisa for their advice,

to help the knowledge because they're extremely knowledgeable about the public inquiry. They really are, as you do find with a lot of families who go through these kind of public inquiries, you know, the knowledge they build up of, you know, their own cases and the circumstances. And, and yeah, I'd go to them, I'd ask them for kind of their reaction on pieces I was writing about, whether it was the emergency services, the delay in getting the survivors help, or I did another piece about a network that might have been behind a wider network. And I'd started talking to them through that really.

And that built into kind of talking more about telling the story more fully. Yeah. What you also do is that you invite us into the real lives of Lisa and Andrew who were a very decent, very incredibly hard-working couple that they'd worked mainly in running their own fish and chip shops. These were people who really put in a day's work and they had they'd met in the most extraordinary extraordinary set of circumstances hadn't they? Yeah the story of how they met is just amazing. Do you want me to tell it? Well I do just because it's so unusual.

Yeah I mean this is in obviously an age of pre kind of Tinder and dating apps and all that sort of thing. And so Lisa lived in Nottingham and Andrew lived in Liverpool. And Lisa had basically just finished in a relationship. Her friends wanted her to set up a date with somebody that they knew, this guy. And Lisa had his number, but deleted it out of a phone. And so she texted what she thought was this man's number, but she got the number wrong by one digit. And that message

went to Andrew in Liverpool. Andrew basically received this message saying, oh hi there, I wonder if you fancy going out for a drink? And Andrew in Liverpool thought, oh my brother's winding me up or somebody's winding me up here. So he decided to ring this number and it was Lisa. And they both, that is literally how they met and they started talking on the phone, extraordinary. Yeah, I wanted you to tell that story and for us to hear the detail because I'm going to say that their lives were ordinary decent ones filled with chance encounters like that, like how they met and full of friends and you know life was good. I mean it wasn't without a challenge but life was good.

They were like so many of the rest of us taking the good times for granted until that terrible night in May. And what this book does brilliantly actually is it takes us into the total hellscape of Andrew's experience on that evening. He was waiting outside Manchester Arena to pick his family up. He had his son with him. He had no reason to be fearful and the hours afterwards were just trauma in a way that it's almost impossible to understand. He was going from one location to another trying to track his family members down. Just tell us a little bit about what happened. Yeah, that's right.

I think you're right. I think they are, they could be, it could be any family. They could have been any of us. And that is why they resonate, that's why the public connects with them. And Andrew was there that night when, I mean, he describes sitting in his car. So he's with his son, Xander, and he's picking up Lisa,

and Lisa with their two daughters, Safi and Ashley, and he hears quite literally, you know, the bomb going off outside the arena that evening and you know then all hell breaks loose like you know Manchester City Centre was quite literally like a war zone you had police armed police on the streets there were children running screaming families injured and Andrew had to enter into all of that with his son to go on this search which basically took him across Manchester to try and find his wife and daughters. He found Ashley very early on who was injured on the corner.

He didn't know where Lisa was. He ended up and the book kind of follows, well it follows Andrew's journey, it also follows Lisa at points. Lisa ends up in a coma for eight days after the explosion, so it kind of follows Andrew as he goes to one hospital, then he finds her in the next and he's told by the surgeons basically that Lisa is there, she's been operated on, she's got a 15% chance of survival and if she does survive a 90% chance of being paralysed and that he's been told that at the point where he still doesn't know where Safi is and I think what the book does is for the first time, as far as you can, it takes the reader as if they were there that night

and it follows them through to what the families really did experience. And then, you know, the hospital, it follows the stories of the surgeons as they battled, you know battles for Lisa's life and you know, Wythenshawe Hospital actually had in the end more than a hundred people go through it. I mean it was unprecedented for a British hospital what they went through. I know that there probably are people who frankly deserve blame for what happened that night and we'll get onto that in a moment but I really wanted to give a little bit of time and space to those incredibly brave people who went beyond what you might call duty on that evening. In fact some

of them, many of them, were members of the public. There were a couple of medical students who stayed with Ashley. You said that Andrew had to leave her because he needed to find the rest of the family. They were just students, they didn't need to stay, but they did. And then when Safi, it was actually I think the family, wanted to discover that she had died instantly in the explosion. She didn't, terribly. She didn't die instantly. But a member of the public, somebody was selling merchandise there, stayed with her. I mean this is this is a thing that we do we need to acknowledge the bravery of so-called ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances. Absolutely. I mean some of the stories in that book you just can't

believe it Jane. You can't believe what they did. You know the story of Paul Reid, the merchandise poster seller who stayed with Safi, you know the story of Paul Reed, the merchandise poster seller who stayed with Saffi. You know the story of Inspector Mike Smith, who we follow in some of the chapters, who fought in that chaos in that room. He fought to save lives. And at that point, and I'm really sorry about this, I just couldn't carry on the conversation with David because the technicals just completely let us down. And I'm sorry for all sorts of reasons not just because the book is really powerful but it's obviously such an important story and Safi Rose Roussos I was just eight the youngest of 22 victims of that bombing at the Manchester

Arena and it's just worth saying that the Roussos family sound like really really lovely decent people who've been through terrible trauma. And also other people come out well of that experience. The man who did risk his own life by staying with Safi and making sure somebody was with her while she lay waiting for proper medical help to get there. And the medical students who stuck with Ashley, Lisa's eldest daughter, so she wasn't on her own either. Incredible bravery really, shown by so many people that night. But unfortunately things

did go wrong and the emergency services were not coordinated properly and there was certainly a suggestion at the inquiry that MI5 knew more about the bomber than they were prepared to admit. So there's all sorts to get out there, but we just, I'm afraid, couldn't get to that part of the story during that interview. So I'm really sorry about that. But if you want to know more about it, you can get a copy of Saffy by David Collins. Fees back tomorrow. Thank you very much for your company today. If you want to ping us an email, we would love to hear from you.

And thank you again for all the postcards from all over the world that continue to give real delight. Thank you so much for bothering. It's Jane and Fee at times.radio. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's

the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Music