Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Every picnic needs a tart (with Karin Slaughter)

Episode Date: June 22, 2023

Jane and Fi have decided they bring out the worst in each other, but they're here nonetheless to talk about horror films, more erotic novels, and failed careers in advertising.Karin Slaughter joins them to talk about her new book 'After That Night'If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] our instagram! @JaneandFiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Greetings everybody, welcome to Thursday's edition of Off Air with Jane and Fi. Jane's the one you can hear in the background, we're both doing shuffling of papers. Jane's just given a little grunt. Heavy breathing. You were, weren't you? What's that about? It was rather pathetic this afternoon when Hannah Evans, our food contributor what was it she said? Every picnic needs a tart I think that's where my picnics have gone wrong

over the years, to be perfectly honest No, we're not going to start laughing again but it is just one of the great joys of coming to work and doing what we do when, although we do often talk about very serious stuff, we're also just occasionally allowed to be complete pillocks. I've not matured particularly since I was about 13.

No, me neither. And sometimes I think we just bring out the worst in each other. Yes, I think that's true. So would you mind leaving? Quite happily. Do you know the funny thing is, me and my friend Alicia Grundy, we had to be separated at school because we just had the same kind of thing going down. Well, once one of us started laughing, the other one just couldn't stop.

And our classes were separated alphabetically. So it went A to H. Oh, right. OK. And then I to Z. And then we came back one year and they'd separated it right down the it went A to H. Oh, right, OK, yeah. And then I to Z. And then we came back one year and they'd separated it right down the middle of the Gs. Right, and do you wonder why they did that? Yes.

Yeah, and it was for exactly that reason, actually. She was and still is very funny. Is she? Yeah. And what does she do? She's an incredibly serious, very successful lawyer. Is she? OK.

So not that many chuckles in her working life then. Well, I should imagine she manages to keep them going. I wonder, that wasn't very subtle, the way they separated the classes, was it? No, no. Was anybody fooled? No. And, you know, we just, we saw right through it. But it was a shame, actually, because we were, you know, we were having a great time. Yes, but you weren't at school to have a great time, Fiona. You were there to learn. But we would have been the same, because it to have a great time, Fiona. You were there to learn. But we would have been the same because it would have gone barfy, glover, grundy. Yes, it doesn't bear thinking. So I would have to be sliced right down the middle, which you would like.

Yes. There are times when I do think of the teachers who said, Jane, if what you've got to say is so interesting, why don't you come to the front of the class and tell everybody? And I think, yep, absolutely. Fine, let me through. Where is the front of the class and tell everybody? And I think, yep, absolutely. Fine, let me through. Where is the front of the class? Is there a microphone?

You were always destined for this job, weren't you? I'm amazed that you even tried to take a diversion into the quiet cul-de-sac of advertising. Advertising didn't go well for me. Or indeed for the advertising agency. Right. Thank you once again for your emails.

JaneAnneFee at times.radio. And a great guest today. It's Karen Slaughter, the American crime writer who, well, actually, she was delightful, wasn't she? She just got back from which, where had she been? She'd been in Flanders. Flanders. That's right. Which I think is in Belgium.

I didn't like to correct her, but she said she'd been in the Netherlands. And I was thinking, well, you haven't, actually. It's never a good opening, is it? I think you're right. No, she'd been Zooming all over Northern Europe, so I think we would forgive her not really knowing what day it was and where she was. But I think it's really worth listening to.

If anybody listened to our Joe Nesbo interview oh yeah and was either annoyed by us or annoyed by him agreement with him then I think you'll find this very interesting because we talk about exactly the same thing about the amount of violence meted out to women in crime fiction that exaggerates what is a horrendous problem in the real world, but in terms of sheer numbers, is not as great as fiction would suggest. So we talk about all of that,

and just there is something, for me anyway, that appears to be more uncomfortable about a woman writing about the rape of other women, but she's brilliant about it and very articulate and explains exactly what she's doing. Yes, I'm kind of still with you, though. I don't... I've got to the stage, I know that you've got to, where I don't want to read about any extreme violence. I just don't.

But both of us have, in our younger years, really enjoyed crime fiction more than we do now. Yeah. Yeah. I've never really been into any kind of really violent fiction, or films, actually. No, I can't do... And actually, I'm with you.

And some of the more macabre crime fiction, I've not been able to watch that ever. Did you ever like horror movies? Well, I was just thinking, what was that? The Blair Witch Project was, I think, the last horror film I watched. And I watched that when I was really quite heavily pregnant I don't know why I went to that but I didn't find that remotely remotely scary but I haven't really seen one since have they got scarier I don't know I've never been able to sit through a horror movie we tried to watch Carrie as kids

oh I've seen Carrie yeah and that just did it for me. Did it? That frightened you? Yes. Oh, I was too butch. Alright then. I don't know why I did that. I don't know why she did that, but we both did it. I've got a copy of the E.L. James book here, a solid copy. I was going to say a hard

copy, but that would be filthy, so I haven't said that. What has got into paperback it's a paperback so you have made uh our producer Kate go and get you that well in a luncheon in the name of research she was going to McDonald's and she didn't mind so that's fine oh no it's no good she'd put in that face you went to McDonald's anyway um you didn't get me a McFlurry and I was going to ask you for one but I then I sort me a McFlurry, and I was going to ask you for one, but then I sort of pegged back a bit.

Anyway, I went into the bookshop with the intention of seeing if they did have a copy of The Misses, as discussed yesterday. You didn't want to appear to be seen in public, the enormous showbiz personality that you are, and defender of women's rights. You didn't want to be seen buying this, so you've made a young researcher, producer, go and buy it.

No, that makes me sound really awful. But I probably would have bought it had there been a less judgmental-looking assistant. You know how sometimes in bookshops there are people who just look very... And I'm bookie myself, there are like some super bookie people who serve in the more you know what i mean i know what you mean and i just didn't i just felt i couldn't buy it but was that in case people recognize you not at all because i thought she'd think what's that saucy old mood doing buying this yeah awful isn't it anyway it's a

really good um actually i know this sounds ludicrous. I haven't actually found any smut in here. Right, well, I'm going to read some emails when Jane looks at smut. Oh, hang on. And an image of her... No, no, we don't need that. ...breast bouncing.

No, no. No. No, no. Dear both, I absolutely love your show and I'm an avid listener. Might you ask your correspondent what dosage she takes in cranberries and pumpkin seeds

because I would do almost anything to improve my own rather soggy situation. Does she roast the seeds, eat them raw? How much in a day? A couple of tablespoons, please help. So we are going to answer all of these questions about cranberries and pumpkin seeds and their efficacy for incontinence

on our Doctor Doctor slot on the actual programme next week. You're away, but don't worry, Louise Minchin is sitting in for you. And then I will report back the things that we've been told that day because it is remarkable. Our previous email correspondent has suggested that her stress incontinence has been really cured by this combination of pumpkin seeds and cranberries, but we have no idea how much anybody is recommending or taking.

So we will find that out for you and we'll do it in a public service kind of way. And I've already forgotten because I'm in holiday mood. What day is that? Doctor Doctor is on Tuesday. Tuesday. So if people have got a question, and again, anonymity guaranteed.

Obviously, we can see your name on the email, but we'd never use it if you ask us not to. Fee, I know who's going to be there on Tuesday, certainly wouldn't. So if you've got a question or just an experience about all this, you can get involved, just Jane and Fee at times.radio or probably on the Instagram account as well. Oh, the Instagram account. Yes. Because the Instagram account worked very well today with questions on interest rates

because I know a lot of people are really, really worried, understandably, about their mortgage going up. Yeah, and we are trying to put more and more content up on the Instagram and we will put some more details about the Book Club book as well. I'll do that over the weekend, I promise. The book is Fresh Water for Flowers by

Valerie Perrin. And I mean, you can read it in French if you want to. It's been translated into many languages. I think it was the most popular book in Italy in 2020. Read it however you like, come together, tell us your thoughts. We'll debrief in about five weeks. Yeah, I mean, do read it in French if you can. and then you can email us in French. And we'll have no idea. We won't, but we'll try and read it out, and then you'll have a little laugh at our ineptitude. I'd love to know the French word for ineptitude.

I bet it's really good. What do you think it would be? Le bullshit. Not bad. Listen, Sarah's a woman after my own heart. She just can't cope with the current weather. It's so mixed as she travels around the land. As I left East London this morning, says Sarah, it was 24 degrees.

I'm now in the Merseyside Riviera where it's slightly cooler at 22. However, I'm here for an outdoor charity event this evening. It's called Revitalise. It's going to be only 17. And positively freezing tomorrow with heavy rain all day and a mere 18 celsius but by the time i get back to london it's back up to 27 degrees all of this has led to me having to haul around a suitcase with several changes of clothes and shoes and predicted quick change in a train loo tomorrow it's all too much says sarah yeah i totally get that i do worry she's probably on the avanti west train with that toilet that um you know you have to lock it you have to remember to

lock it yeah and there have been one or two um occasions over the years when i've it's not deliberate but i've just plain forgotten and then somebody else comes into your private space usually at completely the wrong time. Oh, dear, and they do go very fast round the bend. It can be very difficult to steady yourself. Yes, there's so much I could say about Avanti West, but that's a whole other... I could just have the Avanti West podcast,

which I just talk about it once the other day when I turned up at Lime Street, and they just cancelled the train. Here comes one, shush, here comes one from Catherine, who says, in response to touring tool shed, this is David Jason and Jay Blade's new show. Sir David Jason to you. Sir David Jason. How about utopian utilities?

Given the number of Pinterest posts about utility room renovations and makeovers, I think there is an audience. Surely there is an appetite for a show about lovely rooms that make washing seem less tedious and hide all evidence of it from the rest of the house, allowing you to pretend your clothes are clean by magical fairies if

you wish to. This is from Catherine who says if you read this out and have time, please can you also say hello to my friend Laurie, that's a he, who is also a long time listener and big fan. We came to see you at Alley Pally when you did your book tour and it was a wonderful night. That's kind of you to do that actually Catherine. It was one of our worst nights

I think. That's reminded me though about the books. The books. We must do something. We've got these paperbacks. We've both got paperbacks. Have we got 25 each? Do you want to explain why? I don't understand it but when you do a book

the publisher then sends you 25 copies of the paperback edition of the book. And so we've both got... I've kept all my books just in a cardboard box. I can't think what to do with them or where to put them. I simply don't... There aren't 25 people in my life who want a free copy of our book. Believe me, I've tried. I've knocked on doors in the street.

I mean, I've just done everything. I can't get rid of it. And you've got the same number of books, haven't you? I certainly have. It's an unopened box. Yes, at least I've opened my box, so I've made progress. So I think we need to do something on the Instagram to try and just shift these books along,

some sort of competition or something. There must be a way of doing it. Yeah they're just taking up space yes well we were thinking at some stage we might do a little bit of an event here so maybe that way we could just give them a you know kind of going home presence people are leaving oh i don't know other authors are better at this aren't they and we're not being kind of you know humble bragging, self-deprecating. Jane and I really, really, we found parts of the writing of a book and having a book published kind of thing just bewildering, didn't we? Yeah. I think we're still fairly bewildered.

Anyway. Not that it wasn't fun. It was. There were lots of bits of it that we really enjoyed. Yeah. Now, this is quite interesting from Neil. It's about the track I recommended by Cardinal Black. They've had a lot of

publicity from me this week. Huge! Their track Terra Firma, which I really liked, and I was listening to it as I got off the tube train this morning, actually. Neil says, I think that song is developed from Shine On You Crazy Diamond Discuss. Alright, Neil.

I kind of know where you're coming from, but still like it very much. This one from Livia who says, Your Peter Andre podcast is a joy. I love it when you laugh and get the giggles. It's just what I needed as I nurse a migraine. Jane, stop being self-deprecating. You know full well how much appreciated and enjoyed your own podcast and shows are.

We all feel you're our friends and love what you do. So stop it. And thank you, anybody who was bearing with us last night as we tried to get to the end of a Peter Andre Q. I think there's a new edit, actually, of that podcast making its way. A new unexpurgated version. Yeah, then you'll find, if you do listen to that and look, I mean, you've all got busy lives.

But if you do listen to that, you'll find out why I was laughing so much because actually my colleague was quite funny. Nancy M in Massachusetts says, the American author you just interviewed, that's Karen Slaughter, spoke wonderfully regarding how so many of us over here feel about Biden.

I too would vote for his corpse. So that's going to make sense when you hear our interview with Karen. But doesn't that lady go on to mention Kamala Harris as well? Kamala is fantastic. Yeah, you see, the problem is if you read any media, certainly the media I read, and I think you and I both take an interest in American politics and American news,

and the top line about Kamala Harris is always she's useless and really unpopular. So I'd love to hear from our listeners in the States. Tell us about the good she's done. I know she's been handed some really difficult jobs by Joe Biden. And I know that there have been stories about people finding her very difficult to work with, but you've always got to be particularly careful, I think, with women in positions of authority who are described as, quote, difficult. Did you feel this today at all, Kate, when you were sent out to buy a book? No, she wasn't sent out to buy a book. Actually, I'm going to ask her to come into the conversation. Were you sent out to buy a book? Yes.'t she was going out anyway do you want to save that email till after the karen slaughter interview just because it would make sense to head into it

now which one well you've got an email in your hand there do you want to wait and do that after oh yes i will yeah yeah just because we are on karen slaughter uh so karen slaughter in case you haven't come across her uh she has sold 40 million books across the world. She writes novels, books like Girl Forgotten and Pieces of Her, which is a Netflix series now, isn't it? And she also writes the Will Trent crime series. The latest one of those is out now. It's book 11 in the series, which sees Will Trent,

who is special agent in the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, crossing paths once again with Sarah Linton. There is a crackle of love between them. A doctor who's been at the heart of the books, too. It is a story about violent crime, and it's also a story about a girl called Danny Cooper. And I asked Karen if she could start by telling us just a little bit about what happens to Dani in the book. Well, I don't want to give too much away. But unfortunately, she's in the first chapter of one of my novels. So you know, things aren't going to turn out well for her. But we meet Sarah Linton, it's three years before the present day, and she's working in the emergency department and danny's brought in in a

very bad way and sarah has to do her amazing medical things that probably uh no doctor would have to be able to stop and have time to figure out what to do in two pages uh but fortunately i have medical experts who helped me walk through yeah no i didn't do any of that on my own as far as my research. And she realizes that the case has some echoes to something horrible that happened to her in her past, and the story takes off from there. It's so difficult, isn't it, when you are being interviewed to know what it is that you can say and what you can't say.

Massive spoiler alert. So I'm completely with you on that. But I did want to just ask you a little bit more just about that echo because it's such a clever device for the reader to be pulled into something in the present to then move back to something five years ago, 15 years ago or whatever. How do you write that yourself? Do you write the bits in the past

before you do the opening or are you going back all the time like we do? Well, I always have these really wonderful literary discussions with my editor before I start the book and I say, well, maybe I should write all the past stuff at the same time and go, and it never happens because I'm a very focused writer and I can't be pulled in different directions. So the first word you read is literally the first word I wrote. And the last word is the last word I wrote. And I have to go through it the same as my reader would. I think that helps me with the pacing. But if I only did one section, the other section would really show that I wasn't focused. And are you one of those writers who knows the ending when they start the beginning? Absolutely. Every time? Every single time. I mean, there might

be someone who pops up as an accessory along the way. But I really, for me, I'm not someone who can write into a story. I have to know what I'm writing when I sit down to do it. Do you think it's that that gives your books this really amazing kind of clinical precision? That's because that's how your brain is literally working all the time. It could be. I mean, I'd be the first to admit I do have OCD, which has benefited me in my writing, not so much in my being compelled to vacuum and mop my garage once a month and turn all the labels of everything out the right way, the correct way. But in my writing, I do have an extreme focus on these details.

And honestly, any writer will tell you, we're all writing the same thing, basically, in this genre, which is about murder, right? And there's the same structure. Someone dies, you have to figure out why and who did it and hopefully have a good resolution where they're punished. But the details we bring to the story, our perspective, our take on characters and on crime is what makes the books different. Yeah. Tell us a little bit more about Will Trent. He has at the center of his identity an abandonment issue, and that does crop up a lot, doesn't it, in protagonists in crime fiction? It does, but also it pops up a lot just in life. I mean, we all have our own issues and our own childhoods that we deal with. I have a friend who had a wonderful childhood and supported parents, and she's constantly saying, I could have been a writer.

I could have been a tortured artist if only my parents had been a little shittier. Why am I so happy? And we all do hate her, just to be clear. Why am I so happy? And we all do hate her, just to be clear. But, you know, for me, I think with Will, abandonment is a big part of his personality, but it's also what makes him incredibly good for Sarah. And he has one of the, I think, sexiest lines that I've ever written in this book. She's talking to him about what they're going to do. And he says, I'm here for you. And he doesn't try to explain it or fix it or anything like that. He just says, I'm here for you. And she believes him. And to me, that's the center of not just their relationship, but of

who he is. He's an incredibly loyal man. And instead of taking this trauma from his childhood of being abandoned, he's learned from it and said, I'm not going to be the type of person who does that. Yeah. We've just got to apologize for a word that I think we, I didn't even notice it go past, but I'll apologize in case little ears were listening and anybody was offended by it.

Don't worry about it at all, Karen. Pottybath over there will say something in a minute. Me? Don't look at me. I'd have no memory of my swears i apologize honestly it's it's no big deal at all and i do get the sense in your writing that you really enjoy those little phrases of of quite profound stuff that you can drop in and actually at one time quite early on in the book sar Sarah says something about, is it her mother saying, well, at least a bad marriage is a marriage? Yeah.

Which is just such a terrible thing to say, isn't it? It is. But do you really relish those opportunities to drop in the sexism, the chauvinism, the racism? That's a kind of an extra layer to the books, isn't it? It is. And, you know, particularly because I'm a woman writing books that are predominantly read by women. And it's not just because of who I am. Most fiction is purchased and read by women. And a small percentage is of really sexy, interesting men,

it must be said. But I like bringing those things out. I like talking about what it's like to be a woman in the world, particularly in a book where I'm writing about sexual violence against women. I want to talk about not just how horrible that is, but sometimes how horrible women can be to each other. You know, one of the things that I heard very early in my career is women shouldn't write about these topics, as if women should have no interest whatsoever in crimes that predominantly affect women. Who said that to you? I'm not going to name names.

Was it a writer? It was another writer, but I'm not going to be, I'm not going to do to her what she did to me. And it, you know, it could be a valid opinion for her. Well, obviously it was a valid opinion for her. But for me, when I started writing, I was very mindful of the fact that when I was growing up, my grandmother was being horribly abused by my grandfather. And our family completely ignored this. And she would have a cut lip or a black eye, sometimes a broken bone. And we would go to Sunday dinner with her and my uncles, a broken bone. And we would go to Sunday dinner with her and my uncles, and they would tease her about being clumsy. And when I got older, I realized that she's not clumsy. She's getting the hell, excuse me, beaten out of her. And I talked to my sister about it, and she said,

we don't talk about that. And our silence only protected him. And growing up reading crime novels told through a male lens about women in the world, the solution was always a man was going to protect you, a man was going to save you. And that's not really how life is. You know, women do a lot of work to save themselves. And that's the kind of story I wanted to tell and to talk about how women oftentimes tear other women down at times when they need the most strength and support from their communities. Do you have to take your head to a different place with boundaries in it when you are writing about particularly rape and sexual violence? Well, every writer has their own moral compass. So what works for me might not work for Mo Hader, who was a fantastic author, or Denise Mina, or Val McDermott. We each have our own perspective and what we don't want to do. And I think we,

the women I mentioned, have incredible voices, right? You really, you pick up a Denise Mina, you know, this is Denise Mina or Lisa Gardner or whoever. And we all have our perspective on it and how we write about it. And I think that's wonderful because, you know, particularly when you're talking about assault, you're talking about one woman's experience. And women tend to, when they hear about these crimes, say things like, I wouldn't have been there. I wouldn't have had that drink. I wouldn't have talked to him. I wouldn't have trusted him.

And you think, my God, hopefully you will never, ever find out what you would actually do. But I would say to anyone in that circumstance, what you do is exactly what you should do to survive. So taking out that judgment, I think, is an important part of my writing. I know that you have said that you find it quite difficult to answer lots of questions about violence against women in books, and that there can be a gendered element to an interview. And by that, do you mean that men aren't being challenged about this? You're being challenged about it more because you're a woman writing about violence against women. I think initially, yes. I was often asked, why are you writing about this? Or why would a woman be interested in this? And even my reviews would say things like

meaty and muscular because they didn't have any descriptors for a woman writing about this. That being said, I will say in a lot of my books, I've killed a lot of men and no one seems to care as much. And as a woman, it really pisses me off that women's lives are not considered very valuable unless they're murdered. And then especially if they're white and attractive and if they're pregnant, bonus points, you know, they're going to be in the news a really long time. And if they're pregnant, bonus points. You know, they're going to be in the news a really long time. I mean, we have such huge epidemics of violence in America against our Native American women,

against Mexican American women, against women of color. I mean, the mortality rates for women of color in pregnancy are astronomical. They should be, we as a nation should be ashamed. And it's just something we've learned to deal with. as a nation should be ashamed and it's just something we've learned to deal with. Does your attitude towards the violence that you write about change at all as you get older? Jane and I were having this conversation on our podcast with some of our listeners about the way that your taste can change as a reader and as a huge aficionado of crime fiction all my life. I have recently found it much more problematic actually to read about murder and that's of both men and women, just violence full stop.

Do you find that as a writer at all, that as you age, you become more sensitive to the reality that the fiction is pointing you to? Well, I mean, I should point out I'm not actually aging, so that's different. Well done. You must come back and tell us how that's happening. No, I do think, you know, as I've gotten older, I look at it differently. I think for me personally, it hasn't gotten more difficult.

My attitude about it, you know, when you're very young, you can be very angry about things. I mean, we see that a lot in culture, younger people who are just really annoyed and unforgiving of other people, but they're very forgiving of themselves. And I would count my younger self in that. And I don't think I could have written a book as nuanced as After That Night in my younger days, because I would have been, that anger would have come through in a very real way. And I'm Generation X, you know, we're basically raised like feral hogs. We're the last generation who was just told to go outside and the door was locked against us. And we were told to come back when you're Come back when you're hungry. Yeah, or come back when the streetlights come on. That was what we were told.

And if you're thirsty, there's the hose outside. But also, I'm kind of caught in the middle of an older generation who says, well, you're in a man's world. You just have to put up with it. If you want to have a job, you're going to have to put up with sexism and harassment. And what do you expect? And my generation was very uncomfortable with that. And we were giving all these movies and media about women's empowerment and you can have it all and that kind of crap that doesn't really play out.

And I think younger generations are just saying, why are we putting up with this? I think younger generations are just saying, why are we putting up with this? You know, if every single woman I know could add 10 years to their lives, if they took some of that time back in their youth where they worried about men's feelings and, you know, managing expectations and that sort of thing. And I think that had I written this during that time, it would have been a very different book. Some more anger would have come through. And I'm much more sanguine about it now. It's more like, why? Why are we still doing this? Why aren't things

changing? Karen Slaughter is our guest this afternoon. Let's squeeze in a conversation about American politics, if we can, please, Karen. What do you think will happen in your country over the next couple of years. And we are holding you responsible. Oh, okay. As you head towards the presidential. Well, if I could be the prognosticator, I would say if this was going to come to pass, there would be a different answer to that. You know, if you look at the history of America, starting back, I mean, it doesn't go way back,

the pilgrims came to America and they didn't know what they were doing and a lot of them ended up dying. And then the Puritans came and they were a wealthy merchant class and doing, and a lot of them ended up dying. And then the Puritans came, and they were a wealthy merchant class, and they exerted a lot of control, and they set laws down for people that they weren't necessarily following, you know, these moral laws. And if you were swearing or if you weren't going to church,

you couldn't buy property, you couldn't get married. And then people figured out that the people who were in charge weren't following these rules. And, you know, does this sound familiar at all? There's an element, yes. And so throughout our history, we had these inflection points. One thing we have going for us is the diversity of America. There are many states that are what we call majority-minority now. states that are what we call majority minority now. My state that I live in, Georgia, which I love,

is one of the sane southern states left. That's because of Atlanta. And I do think sanity will prevail. And I know I'm implying that we're all insane right now. And I would just like to point out we can see your news too. So we know things are crazy here. Oh, yeah. I mean, hands up to that. You know, it's, it shouldn't be the pot calling the kettle black at all. But do you think that there is a unifying candidate who's going to emerge in the presidential race? Or do you think whoever it is, who is slugging it out to be president will be a more polarizing person? Well, if you look at what the Republicans are offering, the front runners are extremely polarizing. And they're doing things most Americans do not agree with. Most Americans

want abortion to be safe and legal with some regulation. And I don't mean most like 51%, 60 to 70%, depending on how the question is asked. Most Americans want gun control. We don't want to send our kids to school and have them maybe get shot. We want to be able to go to a shopping center and, you know, all these wonderful things that people who live in a free society can do without being shot. Most of us don't want books banned in libraries. And so it's that puritanical element in our society that's trying to control everything else. And I just don't think it's going to work. It's never worked. I mean,

if you look at history, they always end up burning themselves out. So will it be faster because of the internet? Will it be faster because they don't believe in COVID and a lot of them are dying? I mean, we just don't know how quickly it will be, but I do think there will be a correction. I don't know about a unifying figure. I love Joe Biden. He's doing everything I want him to do. I don't care that he's old. I would vote for his corpse.

I think he's really doing the things I want to do. You came off the fence there, Karen. I did, yes. I think he's been amazing. Tell us why you don't mind that he's old, though, because there's just such a risk that he wouldn't see it through a second term, or watching him having to do that presidential run would just be quite a painful, anxiety-inducing thing.

Well, any more so than Trump? No, not necessarily, no. So, you know, the thing is, Kamala Harris is amazing. I wouldn't mind her taking up, I mean, she believes the same things he does. If you think, I'm a Democrat, so I support Democratic ideals like sanity. I think we need a Republican Party that's not crazy. We really do need, you know, a check. I would say one party wants fascism, the other party wants to give people health care. So

it's not really as black and white as people think it is. But Joe Biden, he might be old, he is old, but he still seems to be functioning. And I don't clutch my pearls when he trips, because I trip too. Karen Slaughter there and her latest Will Trent crime series novel is after that night and it is out today. Yes, Karen was interesting, wasn't she? She was really interesting. Do you remember who was on her band T-shirt? No, I didn't.

Aera Smith. Yeah, she was wearing an Aera Smith T-shirt. It's amazing how band T-shirts can look cool if they're the right T-shirt and the person's the right person. But I was trying to wear one the other day and I was just roundly mocked. Who was the band? Well, it was actually a singer-songwriter who, I confess, I didn't know her work, but I did like her t-shirt. Oh, that's a start. Anyway, everybody just said you look ridiculous taking off. When I say everybody, I mean your loved ones.

I mean the young women that, for whatever reason, seem to hang around in my house a lot and don't respect me in the way that they really should. So many people are still emailing us about care and being carers and we can't do justice, actually, to the number we've had. But I will say that Sue makes the point about the carer's allowance. She is 64. Her husband is 82. Her husband has dementia and Sue is now his full time carer.

She has two daughters who have lost their father and it's a long, slow goodbye. She says, my world is shrinking. Practical, real supports thin on the ground. And the final kick in the teeth, 76 quid a week carers allowance and that stops when i reach pension age don't get me started on that she says well we probably have actually so i know there are other benefits that you will get at that stage but it's um yes it must be extremely difficult and this listener says that their mum was in her early 90s when she died. And the last couple of years before that, she was in poor health.

It was sad to see her decline. And I didn't like her loss of dignity. And of course, nor did she. I didn't want any of that to be my last memory of her. So after she died, I went through all the photos I could find of her. And I did some digital photo albums for myself and my sisters. I chose happy family ones, ones of mum when she was a young woman, some of her and dad in their early days, some in the later

years. I just wanted to remember the good times when she was full of fun and such a wise and loving mother. I love looking at this album and when I feel the loss of her come over me, I can smile now at the image of her laughing as she raises a glass of wine to the camera. And I remember how very lucky I was to have her with me as long as I did. Lou, I think that's a lovely idea. And I do think those digital albums, I'm not sure, I don't think I know, to my shame, how to do them. But they can be, they're great gifts, aren't they? Particularly to give to, I mean, in these circumstances where you can look back and remember somebody when they were just having a great night out so they're quite simple actually it was one of the few things that uh that i think my mum had managed to master too you just basically collate

an album in your phone or wherever you've got your album and then you just transfer it over to one of those digital frames that's what you mean isn't it and it just comes up with different photos all the time oh but you can't can you not just like print a proper book oh yes you can do that but you can get a frame that will sorry that's my phone doing this silly thing uh this is so unhelpful let's just cut it if he's top tips. Right. I feel like I'm stuck in Dixon's. I'm not actually going to close this sale. Right, bye everybody.

Is Dixon still around? I don't think so. Oh, my. Good evening. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run. Or running a bank.

Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener. I'm sorry.