Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Expressing milk at Mach 3...

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

Jane and Fi acknowledge that there may be a period of light adjustment to the LTLFTE jingles. They also discuss (and judge) mid-flight refreshment orders… two bags of nuts and a Bloody Mary anyone?? Plus, Fi speaks to Florence Knapp about her debut novel, “Names”. If you want to come and see us at Fringe by the Sea, you can buy tickets here: www.fringebythesea.com/fi-jane-and-judy-murray/And if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is:Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] next book club pick has been announced! We’ll be reading Leonard and Hungry Paul by Rónán Hession.Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Hannah QuinnPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

No offence to people called Susan, because I'm one of them. Or Jane. We've got thousands of Janes listening. Let's just look for someone who's expressed milk at Mac for. That's what I'm after. Do you remember Lady Shakespeare? I do, yes. Barely, of course. But they were funny weren't they?

Are they still in existence? Are they still pink? I don't know. They were pink and they were smaller than a man's electric shaver. Oh yeah, because our tiny hands couldn't hold them. And there was absolutely no reason why they should have been any different at all. But I do remember looking at my dad's electric shaver and thinking I can't possibly use that because it's for man shaving. You could no more have used it than you could have eaten a Yorkie Bar. Just a distant dream,

the whole thing. And then there's a glorious, glorious day where you just cross the line, don't you? And you just pick up a man's razor and use it. You think, oh, it's much better. This is much better. We only have male razors in the house now. Or you just take my option and just grow a full beard. No, you don't have a full beard. And actually you have your eyebrows done way more than I ever do. Maybe I do. Now we're on. We've had technical difficulties. So many technical difficulties.

So I think that was probably because of the introduction of the jingle yesterday. It sent the equipment into a kind of tailspin, but it's back and we're good to go. Interestingly, one emailer said they don't like the jingle. Well, that's Pearl. I was very upset about Pearl's. So Pearl actually put her caps lock on. She doesn't like the jingle at all. Jumped out of my skin each time the LTL FTE jingle was played.

Please, please don't carry on with it. She's gone Trumpian in her caps lock. Was that because the sound wasn't correctly balanced or because she didn't like the jingle? Well some people are not going to want to have some kind of musical intervention in a solid chat based podcast, are they? Because we don't have sound effects and things like that, and other podcasts do, especially the history ones. Oh do they? They have sounds of history. But we don't ever have that so I think we might meet with some resistance. Well we'll just have to go through a period of light adjustment.

Yeah, I like Hillary's jingle so much. So do I. We're very grateful to you. So sorry Pearl, do you think you can just get used to it? I hope so. Well there's no guarantee she will. Right, now, where are we on the troubled times-ometer this morning, would you say? So as we speak, it's Wednesday, it's about noon, there's a NATO meeting, oh my goodness, and the Secretary General of NATO. Mark Ritter has sent the kind of text message to Donald Trump that's, God, how would you describe it?

It's not even nauseating, is it? It lives in a world beyond nauseating. I suppose it's just, is that real politic? He just has to play the Trumpian game and speak Trump to Trump because he doesn't understand any other language. Well, we need to give an example of what he said don't we? He basically sent Trump a text saying you're amazing, you're so great, oh my god look at the size of your huge fingers! He's always been totally a short fingers to me. It's kind of

like that isn't it? It's basically saying nobody else could have bombed Iran, nobody else could have shown the sheer genius that appears to be emanating from every pore. He also used quite a lot of caps locks and quite a lot of exclamation marks. So he properly, do you think on Google translate there is a Trump translate where you can just say normal things like I think it was acceptable for geopolitics for you to have made that move and it comes out like that.

I've always been told that the Dutch are famously plain speaking and even in some cases thought of as slightly rude by other Europeans because they get straight to the point and they don't pussyfoot around. So I'm a bit surprised about this from a Dutch figure. I think it's so undignified. Well, it might be. Maybe it's so undignified. Well it might be maybe it's just necessary I suppose to keep NATO together. This is what it has to do. It did remind me a little bit of some of the messages that one can get sent when one uses a dating app by people who are absolutely desperate.

Don't mention dating apps, not after the hinge hedgehog thing from yesterday which by the way I was still laughing about even in the middle of the night. So I don't know whether it made you laugh if you're still listening I guess it may have done but it that was I have to say that was an epic move on your part. Did it prickle your fancy? Yeah yes it did. I like the email that came in from someone who noted your fantastic, David Attenborough's job is safe, your fantastic question about whether or not hedgehogs have prickles to deter. Predators. Okay. Actually, what's this from, I'm just moving on, a listener called Mary, because you mentioned his short fingers.

Occasionally, says Mary, who's in central Minnesota, Donald Trump does live up to his nickname, the short-fingered vulgarian. It was given to him by the magazine Spy, which was a satirical monthly mag, published from 1986 to 1998. And it came from the magazine's former editor, Graydondon Carter who stated that the nickname was used to drive him a little bit crazy. The short-fingered Bulgarian nickname refers to Trump specifically in reference to a long-running joke and insult stemming from his perceived short fingers. But what do people, does he have particularly short fingers? Why would that be something that would annoy you if you were,

because look we've all got stumpy fingers or penis fingers whatever they might be. What's this problem? Well I think it was just to show how thin skinned he was and also do you remember when he in his first term of office Donald Trump wore a very odd suit that just, it was always too long, wasn't it? And those very, very long ties. Oh, he's still got the long ties going. But the suits do seem to have got a little bit better fitted. Although, I mean, sometimes the guy must be having to wear a bulletproof vest underneath his suit, so we'll maybe excuse the bulk.

He looks like a hard-boiled egg. But yeah, but he did have suit sleeves coming down so it did make his fingers look really silly and short. But I mean the man is thin-skinned, you can tell that. But if he's listening and we assume that Donald listens to us on a regular basis, then he would think that we're part of the scum, wouldn't he, because that was today's torrent of abuse. There's no danger of this podcast going full-rotter I'm afraid. No I don't think it's not going to be using Trump translate. Now Megan joins us. Megan is... get the jingle ready Hannah come on. It's off air with Jane and Fee. Long time listener, first time emailing. Long time listener, first time emailing.

Off air with Jane and Vee. Wow. That was John's. That was John's. That was John's. OK, well well thanks to John and still thanks to Hillary and Pearl, hope you're alright. We can't thank you enough for these. I really like them but then I am a frustrated disc jockey at heart. And by the way Eve, she's gone to Glastonbury, I mean thank heavens for that because the build up has been off the scale hasn't it?

Could we actually just not mention Glastonbury? No I know, I know. But anyway, Hannah is with us for the next couple of days and we're very glad to have her. Right, on you go. I love your podcast and I've been listening since you were back at The Old Place. I live in Dunedin, I may have pronounced that wrongly, I'm sorry if I have, New Zealand and I work as a psychotherapist in private practice. I've used guide dogs since I was in my early 20s, so I'm now on my fifth dog, Annie, a gorgeous black lab who I've indulged somewhat due to her being so adorable. She's a very good worker and accompanies me to the pool, to palates, on

buses and at cafes. As to your question, guide dogs are trained to toilet on command and here in New Zealand we use the word busy busy to encourage them to relieve themselves before leaving home. To avoid any poo accidents I also use a toileting harness with Annie which fits around her body in front of her back legs. I attach a plastic bag to this and it hangs under her bottom so she can directly poo into it. She doesn't seem to mind wearing it. It works really well and she will even take me to a rubbish bin on command, find the bin, so I can throw it away and not have to keep carrying it around.

These guide dogs are just unbelievable aren't they? It's genius. Yeah, so Megan, thank you very much indeed for that. That is really, really interesting to know. And I think Annie is just allowed to be spoiled. I mean, you must have such a special relationship with her. How fantastic. If you've got a moment, send us a picture. We would really love to see that. We want to up the game on breastfeeding in unusual places. And I have to say, well, is it strictly breastfeeding? But anyway, let's bring in Jane who says, I'd like to throw down the gauntlet to the hive. About 20 years ago, husband Pete knew that I

love aviation and kindly booked us both on an excursion flight on Concorde for my 40th birthday. Do you remember these? You could just go on Concorde for the day. Just incredible. I don't remember those, no. Well, this one would take us out and beyond the Bay of Biscay so we could experience getting to Mach 3. All sounds lovely so far, says Jane. However, I'd had a baby three weeks before the planned trip. Just bad timing. So my family kicked in, offering to take care of baby Livy, allowing me to go. I supplied all the relevant equipment, including thankfully pre-extracted breast milk. The great day arrived and we headed to Exeter airport.

That's easy to me, even more remarkable that Concord was taking off from Exeter and just going off to the Bay of Biscay for a bit of a quick trip. Now on arrival we were told there would be a bit of a delay. That wasn't really a problem until it was announced there'd be another delay. Eventually we sat on Concord and the amazing trip went ahead. However the inevitable happened because of all the delays. My boobs started to swell and get painful as the milk came in. I had no alternative other than to go to the loo and express milk. At one point looking in the mirror at myself thinking

what the hell! When I came out of the loo, I noted that on the bulkhead digital sign we were flying a Mach 3. Expressing milk at Mach 3, I ask is this a first? Well, can anyone do better? Have you expressed milk possibly on that trip that Mr Bezos organised with his lady friends. Have you expressed milk at Mach 4? I suspect that's a crevice within a very small niche but you never know. Hope to see you at Cheltenham, says Jane. Yes, I think that's a possibility. That's more our speed.

Cheltenham is below any of the Macs. It's a gentle glide. Yeah, I think we are going to the Cheltenham Literature Festival, I believe it's in October. I wonder whether the Mach 3 makes it harder or easier actually to release your breast milk. I think babies do something quite funny, don't they, in aeroplanes where they do want to feed all the time. Is that right? Yes, well definitely in my experience. Well I suppose it's nerves apart from anything else isn't it? Maybe they just feel there

in a slightly... Is that why I eat a lot on flights? It's exactly the reason why you suddenly find yourself you know ordering two bags of nuts and a Bloody Mary. Just to fill me up. At a time of day that you'd never eat two bags of nuts and a blackberry. I don't know. Yeah, it's a, I know it's a well trodden theme, but the champagne and oyster bars that have people in them at 5am in the morning. I mean, what's going on there? Do you know what? I am a, I'm dead against the whole cheeky pint or Prosecco before you get on a flight. Why?

I don't care if the flight's at three in the afternoon. You don't need it. No, it's really stupid. It's just so bizarre. Dehydrating. Yeah. No, terrible. But I think we will look back in 50 years' time and marvel at the drunkenness on public transport that we see now. Because who in their right mind is going to allow that level

of drinking to continue? Lots of airlines have tried to rein it in a bit already. Am I right in saying that the measures on it, they're very small alcoholic drinks, aren't they? No, I think they're huge. Oh, I thought they would, they'd sort of had smaller things. Well, I think there's definitely, I've been on planes where people have been given, you know, kind of three small bottles of gin when they've asked for a gin and tonic. Oh really?

You know, kindly, Air Steward or Stewardess, oh go on, you know, just have a couple. And in fact on one flight there was a dad travelling with his daughter in the seats behind us and they were obviously celebrating something, I mean she must have been in her early twenties. They could barely move by the time they got off the plane and we saw them, we were going to Lisbon, and we saw them trying to make it through passport control, just kind of, you know, literally swaying. There's had so many and obviously the the erst duodess had been trying to be very kind and generous towards them because they were celebrating something. So she, you know, she'd said have another one, have another one,

in a way that you just wouldn't really do in a pub. But also you're on a plane which, you know, as we've tragically learned recently... There's jeopardy. Yeah, you might have to be, you know, sentient. In possession of your wits. It is weird, isn't it? No, I don't get it. I'd be really interested to hear from cabin crew. We must have some listening and tell us what is it like to Police these flights because particularly there was a clip that went very viral on the socials I think last week of the easy jet flight to Ibiza. Did you see it? Yes. Oh and it was it was Britain Let's just be honest at its worst at its feral worst these

Just dreadful behavior from British tourists heading to Ibiza, filmed by a resident of Ibiza on her way home. Yeah, we're sorry. We're just very, we're just really sorry. We're just really sorry. I can't think of anything more revolting. And on a more kind of mundane middle-aged person's level, I just wouldn't dream of in any way provoking more widdles than are possibly needed on a flight. If I don't want to go to a spoons and have a great big pint of lager

when I'm about to get on a plane that has 350 passengers and two working toilets, that in my mind is jeopardy too far, Jane. I'm with you, Judith Chalmers. I really am. On my recent flights to Portugal, I was on the unfashionable row 30 because I can never work out how to change my seats and I actually ultimately don't care that much really which seat. I mean, some of my friends get really aerated. We must be as far. What difference, in the end, what difference does it make? But I was right on the back row. And I'm not joking, I was introduced to practically every passenger

because they all came past to go to the loo. It's only a two and a bit hour flight. Yeah, because they're... What's wrong with these people? Well, they'd had a couple of pints and they'd had a Bloody Mary and a bag of nuts at 6am. And their bladder had said, no, don't do that. Yeah, I know, it doesn't react against it, I just don't understand it. People are fussy

aren't they about where they sit? I honestly don't get it. I mean obviously on a long haul flight you probably don't want to be in the middle I suppose if you don't know the people either side of you. Yes. Although I just step over them. I sit on their knee as I do so, so be it. Oh god, I've been in some dreadful, dreadful long-haul flights in my earlier travelling life. What was the worst? Oh, so I got on board. We were going to Chicago and I got on board and I was right in the middle of the middle seats, so five seats in the middle and I was right in the middle of the middle seats and I had two extraordinarily large and tired gentlemen.

They didn't put their heads on each other. Well one of them was so large that he said, do you mind if I pull the armrest up to be more comfortable? So I had him splurging onto one side and I had a couple who were looking after, they had two children with them, so there was just a lot of bouncing around between them. So obviously they tried to book seats next to each other but we were separated by an aisle and so they were separated by an aisle so there was just lots of kids being hiked over and all of that kind of stuff. And it was just a massive, massive endurance test of patience. And I mean, I must have only been about 26, 27. And I wouldn't

have dreamt of making a fuss. So I didn't say anything, just got on with it. But it was horrible. It was just horrible, Jane. Yeah, I can imagine. I don't think other passengers should be allowed to splurge onto fellow travelers. I mean, we're both quite compact people and I struggle with the amount of space I'm given on a flight. So what the hell it's like if you're six foot four, I cannot imagine. Yes, and I know that people listening will say have a bit more understanding for people with larger bodies and whatever. And I completely do but at the same time you got to have that fight with the airlines because you shouldn't be having it with the person

who's seated next to you because it is quite difficult. It's quite difficult to say, I mean I wouldn't have dreamt of saying no, you know, keep the armrest there and be uncomfortable for 12 hours. I wouldn't have done that. Oh just put up with it. So it was a bit too close for comfort. And you know me, I very much like to cosy up to the world. You can get some fantastic fully branded outfits in the middle of Lidl. I've not got into an advert here. This is a piece of regular correspondence. Well, you say that, Mary, but I regularly visit my local Lidl. I've mentioned it before. And we don't, I'm not being snobby,

we just don't have clothing in our local Lidl. Well is it because in East West Kensington the clothing that Lidl is selling in other stores might not be very popular? It's extraordinary. So you can get a little short-sleeved shirt which makes you look like you're attending a fancy dress party as a harlequin. I mean it's just yellow and blue in the little colours but in a kind of checkerboard pattern. I mean I really can't look at that for very long actually before my eyes start going. It's certainly busy isn't it? Yeah it is. And then you've got some blue and yellow crocs and you've got your bucket hat. I mean I've missed an opportunity here with your recent birthday.

Well you've more than made up for your rather tardy performance on the birthday front with an absolute house brick of a chocolate thing. And isn't it the weather for joy? It really is. No, no, I checked and I think I told you it lasts until the April of next year. So what's in it, God alone knows, but it'll practically take me through to next birthday, so I'm all right. You've also taught me into buying aircon.

Oh, well we should have a conversation about that. Unit yeah which which should be arriving soon. All the best to the bezos. I'm afraid to say well we all slag him off and then you know we find ourselves availing ourselves of his... Well that's why he's so rich. Facilities yeah I know. He created something that people do want to use an awful lot and we wish them well don't we? Well not particularly because I'm here to tell you I'm not sure it's going to last. The nuptials in Venice, do you really know that's?

Well of course I don't think it's going to last. Let's just get real. God save. I think they're very well suited. Well, they might be well suited, but they could be well suited for about three years. Okay. Mystic half strikes again. I'm so cynical.

There appear to be an awful lot of people out there who are very, very famous and very, very rich and are buying second hand. They're part of the circular economy. They're not Jeff Bezosingh. And in comes this from Moira, who says, apropos of Daniel O'Donnell's suit purchase, here's a photograph of a lovely jazz singer who bought two dresses from me on eBay about 15 years ago. One was for wearing on stage,

and she wore the other to receive her OBE from Prince Charles, as was. Please don't name her on air air but she has impeccable taste obviously. The dress was Vivienne Westwood in brackets diffusion and I loved it but there was wool in the fabric and it itched me like hell. Moira is counting down to North Berwick but she needs a jingle for long time listener regular unsuccessful emailer. Oh, we don't have that one. No, we haven't. And I think that is too much of an ask. But congratulations, because now you've cracked it.

You certainly have. Yeah. And how, I mean, it just must be a little bit spooky, mustn't it, when the famous people just crop up in a mundane place in your life? That's rather lovely. Yes. Yes. I just, rather lovely. Yes, yes. I'm just, I'm parking my cynicism and just going wholehearted and positive. I am a long time listener, first time emailer.

Thank you, you're so good at this Hannah. And we're not going to name this individual, they're lying low. I'm inspired to email having just heard about the vicar with his special cup drawing. It's quite funny, it's rather crude, but it's on the Instagram, you'll be able to see it. So it reminded me of an incident at my son's Catholic school when he was eight. No, don't worry, please read on. She says, yes, thank you. On one of our walks to school, this would have been about 12 years ago, my son spotted a Stonewall ad on a bus. It was that some people are gay, get over it advert. Now my son asked me what this meant. So I explained sometimes women fall in love with men and vice versa. and sometimes a woman might fall in love with a woman and a man might fall in love with a man, just like our

friends P and J and your godfathers B and D. But not everyone thinks this is okay, I said, and I added, some Catholics think this isn't okay and so there might be some people in your school who don't think it's okay. There was silence and I made a mental note to revisit at the end of the school day in case he wanted to talk or had any more questions. Well back at home after school my son produced a Christmas card that he'd designed that same day which happened to be the year 3 Christmas card competition entry and it was going to be judged by the local priest. An initial glance showed an image of a stable with a baby in a crib. I could also see what looked like a woman on either side of the crib. Who are these people, I asked. My son pointed

to the women and said, it's Mary and Mary. And then pointing to the crib, and that's the gay baby Jesus. I was overcome with a wide range of emotion, as you can imagine, including dying with laughter at the thought of the priest's reaction when it came to judging. Do you think this entry won the prize? I hope so. It didn't. But our correspondent says I still carry a real sense of pride at this little act of activism and absolutely a merry-merry with their lovely gay baby Jesus there back in the day. Thank you very much for that. Actually, we can name it's Jane. Thank you, Jane. I'm one of a group of four friends, flatmates of students since at Andrews in 1989, and we have stayed best friends. We all listen

to you regularly. Karen is now in California. Jenny's in Rochdale. Sheila's in North Berwick. Yes, she has book tickets. And I came to listen to you both a couple of years ago when you gave a talk at a school in East Dulwich and I bought a book for each of them which you signed. Jane, you added a PS in Karen's book, please pass this to Jane, that's me, when you've finished. Well I'm still waiting. Right, well perhaps Karen out there in California is being a bit, you know, she's thinking about the post. She can't be bothered. Well, maybe she's still wading through the book. She just hasn't finished. I mean, to be honest, it's quite weighty. So I wouldn't be surprised if people were wrestling with the intellectual might of it all.

Exactly. It's one of those books where you need to read a chapter and then just put it down and think about it. Gary says, has Jane mentioned Victoria's knob in Liverpool outside the law courts? No, I haven't. What does that mean? Well, we were talking about statues yesterday on the Times radio show, weren't we? Two till four, Monday to Thursday. Thursday, free, available on the app.

Do join us. It's fun. Yeah, it can be. We were talking about statues and there is this trick of the light that plays around the statue of Queen Victoria outside the courts in the centre of Liverpool and depending on where you're standing, it can look as though she was, shall we say, abundantly blessed. And it has to be said, unusually so as well. Right. Now, this just made me laugh. We get sent quite a lot of beautiful, wonderful emails from you, our beautiful, wonderful off-air community.

God, what's coming? But we also get so much PR guff sent into the email inbox. And this just made me laugh today, because absolute props to the person who's trying to get this guest on because as we know in journalism, you've got to have a really, really good top line, haven't you? You've got to send something off into the world that's going to be eye-catching and relevant and fit into someone's calendar. Like as an example. Good morning.

What would your example be? Oh, well, I'm just going to read this out. Oh, I see. You'll see exactly what their PR people have tried to do. Good morning. Dr. Reema Clayton, consultant dermatologist, is available this week to discuss top tips for keeping your skin safe ahead of Glastonbury.

You said you weren't going to mention it and it's the second time it's been referenced. So the thing is, I think we would absolutely want to have a conversation about skin cancer rates and sun tans and where we're going with all of that kind of stuff. But no, we're not going to feature ahead of Glastonbury, we're not going to do it. And then sometimes in the email inbox people will send us stuff and then they'll try and follow it up, or their bot tries to follow it up a couple of days later With increasingly kind of ticky. Did you get this? Did you read this? You just go away. I'm a very angry, but I'm angry Yeah, I know is a no. Oh, no is a no Right, we've got cracking guests. We have I just wanted to mention this from Janice who is listening in the middle of the night in Sydney

She says I've been listening to you on the live radio program and catching up with your podcast. Yes, I'm an insomniac. You were talking about sectioning and actually, can I just thank the people who emailed us about their own experiences of being sectioned because Jane, Jamal, Markerans and I were talking about the Heston Blumenthal documentary about it. And it's just not talked about very much and obvious props to him for talking about being sectioned, but also thanks to the people who emailed us to talk about it and it's just not talked about very much and obviously props to him for talking about being sectioned but also thanks to the people who emailed us to talk about it. Janice says having a son who has schizophrenia and was sectioned many times I was really pleased to hear your comment about how anxiety and depression is accepted by society today but the really serious

mental illnesses like schizophrenia are still not understood and often demonised. People with schizophrenia are no more violent than the rest of the human population. My son was an incredibly gentle soul and it was hell watching him suffer from such a tragic life-altering condition. He is no longer with us having succumbed to the effects of his medication, but I do find solace in that we kept him out of hospital for the last seven years of his life. And he's now at peace and he is free from society's judgment. Well, I mean, I'm so sorry to hear that, Janice, but I'm also glad that you feel that he is now in a better place and, as you say, free from judgment. I think that's really

worth just acknowledging that the judgment of others can be just horrendous. And do you think that actually we just need to have a better word? Because I think the word section is old fashioned, I think it is difficult. You know, would we, if we were going to describe what that process is, would we choose that word now? I don't think we would because it's just so close to imprisoned and I don't know, there's got to be a better way of putting it where it doesn't sound so frightening to everybody. I suppose a strict definition is hospitalised for your own safety or the safety of the world at large.

Is there a kinder way of putting it? Well, perhaps people will tell us. Yeah. Anyway, we do always read every email and particularly the ones that are incredibly personal. We are always happy for those to be anonymous, but we're always grateful to receive them actually because the Offair Hive is a lovely place to be, isn't it? And I think often allows people to talk about stuff that maybe they can't be talking about elsewhere. We never ever take that for granted. There's plenty to talk about actually off the back of our guest. Florence Knapp has written a novel called The Names. It's a really remarkable book on lots of levels. I would highly recommend

it. It's not a lighthearted romp through nominative determinism. So the idea is? The idea is that your name shapes you and so whatever your parents choose to call you can have such an effect on your life. But actually it's a book about domestic violence, it's a book about how a mum copes with a really appalling man called Gordon and it's the imagining of the life of her second child, her son, if he had been called Bear or if he had been called Julian or if, as Gordon, the nightmarish husband, wanted him to be christened

Gordon in his own image. So it's a really, really clever book and it does give you tingles as well and it really, really makes you think about a lot of things. So here is Florence Knapp. For obvious reasons you might not want to listen to our interview if you're already finding that topic extremely difficult. So the idea is about how a name can shape the course of a person's life and it opens in the wake of the 1987 storm as Cora sets out with her nine-year-old daughter Maya to register the birth of her son and her husband Gordon is he's a local doctor and really well respected but just a totally terrible presence at home and he intends for her to follow a long-standing family tradition and name the child after him but as Cora's getting

nearer and nearer to the registrar's office she's really thinking about whether it can be right to kind of you know she's got this perfect gorgeous newborn and whether it could be right to give him this name after his father. And her daughter on the way has suggested the name Bear because she thinks that name would be kind of soft and cuddly, but also brave and strong. And in Cora's own mind, she's thinking about the name Julian partly because it, Julian means sky father. And so she's able to say to her husband it's a tribute to you it means father but inwardly she's thinking well maybe it would allow you to kind of be elevated above all those awful earth fathers and it follows them

across kind of 20 sorry 35 years depending on the name she gives him. It revisits each version of this boy's life every seven years depending on what he's being called. It's so clever and it really makes you think about what a name does to your life. I mean if we just take the case of Bear, it is so true, isn't it, that if you give a child quite an exciting name, it's difficult for them to not be adventurous, to not go off the beaten track. Well, it feels like, to me, Bear want to be in it. But it's also, there's a moment in the book where Maya, his elder sister, talks about going into a shop with

him and someone leaning over the counter and saying, what's your name? And when people hear what his name is, she says it's like holding a buttercup under someone's chin and saying do you like butter and of course everyone does and that he this is the response he gets from the world and it's you know you just feel like you were glowing to you know where everywhere you go people are delighted to meet you and if you contrast that with say Gordon's experience if he was to have that same scenario with a shopkeeper and the response he's likely to get, I think it immediately, you know, before you think about any of the difference in their upbringing, because each version

of their lives are set off on very different paths depending on how the father responds to the name. And Gordon, very subtly because he's called after his dad, he leans towards his father in a rather horrible, complicit way, doesn't he? Which you can completely understand you would, especially if your name is the same as your dad's. And inasmuch as this is a book about names, it's actually a book about domestic violence, isn't it? Yeah, it's... So I think there's, in calling his son Gordon, there's a, as well of it being about following family tradition, there's also a sense of ownership that his father has over him there. And I think what we see with Gordon is that he's horrendously weaponised

by his father. And it's really not until he's kind of much older that he's able to maybe think about the person he wants to be and to stop and think, well, actually do I like this version of myself? That's kind of basically, I think of the Gordons as like a set of nesting dolls in a way of just the generation after generation come out in the same way

until one of them makes a decision to actually be a different way I guess. And you were interested in writing about domestic abuse because you heard one woman's reality, one woman's story and it set you off on this path. Slightly different to that actually. It was that I, someone from All Women's Refuge came to speak to a group of women that I was part of. And when she told us about her day-to-day work, it was just, it was really harrowing to listen to. And it was online and I really struggled

to not close the laptop as she was telling us about it. But I think when I've heard something like that, often my way of processing it is through reading or writing and I had a whole load of very, very basic questions floating around my head of, well, why would someone do that? But also, why would someone stay and what would the impact be on children growing up in this kind of environment. And that just filtered into this because I hadn't actually intended for it to be a novel with such a kind of, with any strand of domestic abuse running through it. It was meant to be about, well, names, but also the effect that our upbringing has on us. But I think in walking alongside

Cora and her children in this kind of one fictional story I felt like I was better able to understand some of those, the answers to some of those questions by the end of the novel. Is it hard to write about the very difficult circumstances of motherhood. You're a mother yourself and some of what Cora goes through because her husband's just an absolute what's it, especially when she's pregnant and when she's just had the baby. It's very very dark isn't it? Yeah I think those those first three chapters ask a lot from the reader partly because it's laying out what this man is actually capable of so that when we revisit the families in subsequent years the reader's better able to understand kind of what Cora's been dealing with in a way. Yeah and she deals with it very well

with people helping along the way in some of the stories. We won't give away too much of the novel. How old were you when you wrote this book? I was, oh gosh, maybe 45? I'm 48 now. No, maybe 46. So you've been writing before, but you hadn't been published before. What does writing a novel at that age allow you to do that your younger self might not have been able to do? I think all sorts of things. On the most basic level I found a manuscript I'd been working on in 1999 the other day and on it were some notes from my sister where she'd

kind of gone through and done a bit of an edit on it for me and there were things like that I'd without Google I'd made the assumption that I hadn't been to Paris I thought the Champs-Elysees was a river that someone might be boating down and so I guess Google kind of saves us from some of those kind of... So that's different, but I... I suppose with each... Because I had several half-finished novels and then a finished novel that didn't find a publisher. And I suppose with each one of those things, I've become a different person who thinks differently

about the way that I want to tell a story, I suppose. Are you glad that some of the earlier ones when you were younger didn't get published? I was so relieved. Yeah, no, it would have been absolutely excruciating. I always think that must be really hard for an author when you have a huge body of work that's spanned a lot of your adult lifetime to almost... that I think there's a part of us that sometimes wants to run away from our younger selves and kind of think, okay, well, I'm this person now, I don't really want to look.

And that's to have that all. I mean, I think the other thing is, is that the fiction that I write now is completely fiction. I kind of, I really am an over-thinker. And so when I write fiction, I like to get away from my own head and to be with my characters. But I think as a much younger writer they always say that that first novel is often working out the things in your own life that you're

dealing with and thinking about. And I think that was probably really true for me and I feel, it feels a much nicer place to be writing fiction as fiction rather than also fiction in any way. So this book The Names it's been called the best debut novel in years by the Sunday Times you were nominated for the Women's Prize as well it's a huge accolades. No I haven't. No, no it's mine wasn't eligible for this year's mine I think I think you had to have been published before April. Oh, okay. Have you not made it onto a long list somewhere?

I don't think I have, no. You should have done, Florence. Okay, let's make one up now, Florence. I've been robbed. Okay. But when you get that kind of praise and that kind of attention for your debut novel, is it intimidating for the next one?

Oh, it's extraordinary. It's funny with the next one I suppose in some ways I've tried to because I've been very clear all along in my mind that I feel so unsuited to be doing publicity and it's felt almost like I've had to build a new self to try and do it because kind of any kind of public speaking is so far out of my comfort zone that while I'm publicizing this book I don't feel like I could be writing another book at the same time because that for me involves being completely squirreled away from the world and kind of in hibernation mode. So I haven't started trying to write the next one at the moment and in some ways I keep on

telling myself once you're back away from the world then it'll all happen and I guess I just have to hope that it will. It's such a natural thing for somebody who's very good at writing to not be the same person who would be very good at public speaking but that's absolutely what the industry asks of you now isn't it to do the tour of all the literary festivals, to do the clips on social media, to come on programs like this? Well, completely, and I think that if you are someone who writes, certainly for me, I've always been someone who works out what I'm even thinking about something, writing it down, whether that's kind of, I don't mean in fiction, I mean in non-fiction, whether that's writing like a

sub-stack newsletter or a blog or something like that that and so to suddenly be in a position where I'm having to work out what I'm thinking while I'm speaking feels completely foreign to me and it's a whole different skill that I just well I haven't really had it and I'm still learning it. We've just been listening to the leader of the free world and you could argue that the ability to think coherent thoughts whilst your mouth is open and moving may not be something that everybody masters at all. You're also very accomplished in other areas of your life aren't you? In particular, I want to call it quilting, but is it quilting? Yes, making quilts. Yeah. And it's funny because someone who was

interviewing me a while ago said to me, I've noticed you also really like doing jigsaws, because I'd been doing a jigsaw that I'd kind of posted about on Instagram just because it was particularly beautiful, the illustration. And he'd said to me, do you really like piecing things together? Because that looks like what you've done in your fiction as well. And it's, you know, when someone suddenly tells you something about yourself where you're thinking oh gosh, yeah no I think I do. And it's so in some ways I suppose there's an overlap in that you're taking all those small pieces and putting them together to create a kind of whole which is what you're doing in fiction as well.

Yeah and what you're doing when you make a quilt, when you're piecing it all together. Oh, sorry, I was talking about- Oh, I thought you were on the jigsaws. I was on jigsaws and then in my head, I'd moved on to quilts, but just hadn't notified you. It's good, right. I've got subtitles somewhere. Which bit of quilting is paper piercing?

Paper piecing. Yeah. So this is a traditional method of hand quilting where you have paper pieces. And hundreds of years ago this would have been torn out receipts and newspapers and pages from books and you wrap the fabric around it and you used to stitch the stitch the fabric to the paper but now we often use kind of a temporary glue and it means that you can sew quite complex shapes together and then

afterwards you take the papers out although again they. And then afterwards you take the papers out. Although again, they didn't always use to take the papers out because it made for a much warmer quilt to leave them in. So it was slightly rustling. But yeah, so none of it's machine based, it's all by hand. Right, and so what's the difference now between doing a quilt by hand and doing a quilt on the machine?

Would you be regarded as a kind of ultimate crafts person if you were still doing it all by hand? Are most quilts done by machine? So I think, well, certainly the ones you buy in shops would be, but in terms of makers, I think there's a huge community of people who are still making them by hand. And I think in some ways it's partly, I think it's partly about what it gives to you while you're making it and that it's almost, if you do have a quite a busy mind and so aren't the kind of person who'd want to kind of do meditation or something like that, then actually

doing something where your hands are moving gives you that same mental space that meditation might and it's just a really, it's just so slow in a way that I kind of quite like. Yeah, which is a good thing to embrace sometimes, isn't it? Very good thing. Yeah. So do you have an idea for the next book or yes you do. Yes, sorry vigorous nodding there, vigorous. Yes I have, yeah, no I have my idea but that's the other thing is I've no idea whether I'm going to get to the idea when I eventually sit down to write and just think, gosh, I really don't like this. Because I think these ideas have a certain amount of energy in them, don't they?

And I've no idea whether that energy will still be there or whether it will be like coming back to a kind of limp balloon. And have you always hankered after being called something different? Because actually your name's very beautiful. And if I may say so, Florence, it completely fits with the quilting and the writing of a very beautiful novel and the jigsaws. Thank you. Um, so I when I was about six, my family moved across the world to Australia.

And I think when you're standing in front of a classroom of children, where you've got a name that was last popular in 1908, which I know is much more common now, but it's almost like announcing kind of, I'm not really going to fit in and I'm slightly odd. So I think then I would have loved a more, just a more normal name but then as a teenager I ended up really liking it and I really like it now it just feels like who I am and like I live really comfortably within my name. And have you never been afloat? You've always been a Florence? No, I feel it feels so far away from it's not that I don't like that name for other people but it just doesn't feel in any way who I am it's so when if people say that I I almost don't recognise myself and feel like they've renamed me without asking permission.

And this is such an unfair question to ask you, but I'm going to anyway. You're a mum, you've got kids, did you get their names right? Oh gosh, I think I did. Yeah, I think they, yes, I feel like I did, yeah. Yeah, because it's actually very rare, isn't it, that somebody does change their name in adult life. But some kids do feel so strongly about it for lots and lots of different reasons. They will basically be saying to their parents, you got it wrong. That's not me.

Yes. And I mean, my daughter shortened her name, which in some ways feels like that's her kind of taking ownership and deciding who she wants to be within the kind of, you know, stretching the premises of that name, which feels like a really nice thing, I guess. And, um, but yeah, it feels like quite a responsibility. Yeah, it is massive. It is massive. You're absolutely right. Yep. Well, it's a wonderful book.

I mean, as you have clearly elucidated during our conversation, it's got elements of the real darkness of life in it, but it is also about the joy of motherhood. It's about what your children can achieve. It's about what you can choose to leave behind and what the world throws at you. So it would be a hard recommend from me. It is The Names by Florence Knapp. And I'm so sorry you weren't nominated for the Women's Prize. In my heart,

you were. Thank you so much. Florence Knapp with The Names and it is, as you can imagine from everything that we've talked about during that interview, a really substantial book. She's got a really light touch in terms of how she writes, a really beautiful descriptive turn of phrase, but it is some pretty meaty stuff that's considered by her. But such a clever conceit. Well congratulations to her because she isn't, you know, she's not in her 20s is she? No, no, not at all and she's used her experience of life and kids and all of that and there

are so many things that she writes, especially about, you know, those very, very early weeks of having a baby that you think much further down the line, you're way past that but actually it just comes flooding back, doesn't it? On a much lighter note, and I think Florence would recognise that there are lighter conversations to be had around the book, what would be your chosen name if now you're 61 years of age, you look back on your life and you think, actually all of that would have been better summed up

if I'd have been called... What would it be? Well, my mum wanted to call me Catriona. Do you think that that's Catriona's life? I think I've probably led Catriona's life, even though I'm called Jane. Do you? Yeah. Would you have been happier with Catriona?

It's a bit more interesting, isn't it? Catgarvey. It's quite good. Yeah, that's not bad. But I think there's something quite... Can I say this? I don't know. Can you? There's something quite funny about Jane Susan Garvey.

I really enjoy it. No, I enjoy it, Jane. Well, I don't much. I mean, I'm no offence to people called Susan. Because I'm one of them. Or Jane. Or Jane. We've got thousands of Janes. Let's just look

for someone who's expressed milk at Mac for. That's what I'm after. Okay. But we would also love your thoughts about what name would better have suited you. You know, if you could choose a name at the end of your life that encapsulated everything your life had been. I am interested. That's a fun game to play. Do you have a male name that you would have been called if you'd been male? Well, I know what, because I think my mum did think all the way through her pregnancy that I was going to be a boy and, you know, they didn't test for in either pregnancies over me or my sister. So I was...

But they didn't in those days. No, they didn't, no. And it had to be this lovely element of surprise. And I would have been Felix or Fergus So it would have started with an F. Yeah, I don't know why they settled on that But I would have been a Felix or a Fergus. Well, just because that goes with Glover. Does F go with G? FG I honestly don't know. There is a rhythm to names that sometimes work better than others So Fergus is a very Scottish name and obviously mum's family is Scottish, but Felix, I don't know. I don't know where that came from. But we've got a Felix. Popular brand of cat food.

We've got a Felix on the team. Yes, here we have. We've got a Felix Forbes, very Scottish name too. Hey. Hi. You've had your tea. Actually, he's not like that at all. He's quite a generous bloke. He's been away for a while, so I can't remember. Is he generous?

Yes, he's very generous. And also we should say congratulations. Oh, he's quite a generous bloke. He's been away for a while so I can't remember, is he generous? Yes, he's very generous and also we should say congratulations. Oh, he's got married. Because he's got married, yep. Yep, and he sent some beautiful pictures to the production WhatsApp and very thoughtfully included a couple of pictures of Alpacas. So he's a keeper. He is. Very nice man. Yes, congratulations to you both, Felix. Don't think you're listening. Right. I hope you're not. You're on honeymoon. Here we are and there we've been.

Thank you for your contributions. Jane and Fee at times.radio. Catriona and Felix return at the same time tomorrow. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.