Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Face bras and twin peaks (with Jilly Cooper)

Episode Date: November 8, 2023

In this episode, Jane and Fi are trying not to ramble... Naturally, this results in them discussing age gaps, face bras and Jane Austen. And, they're still trying to get you to buy their book! Plus, they're joined by the author Jilly Cooper to discuss her latest novel 'Tackle!' If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Now, today we're determined to be slick, professional and quick. Yes, we're going to be concise, aren't we? Because, boy, we've been having a ramble for the last couple of episodes. Also, we've worked quite hard today We have done a lot So we did a pre-recorded interview with Jilly Cooper that then went out as live on air which you can now hear, that's a little bit too much tech

jargon, you didn't really need to know any of it but she was a blast we covered a lot of things so Jilly is our big guest and we also did a pre-recorded interview which you'll be able to hear in tomorrow's podcast with Kasta Semenya whose story is just extraordinary

and I hope you'll enjoy listening to it, so she's the South African Gold Olympic and World Championship medal winner in the 800 metres in particular but you probably know her because of all of the debate about her gender. So, you know, I think for any person who has excelled at something,

for their life and their accolades to be overshadowed by the arguments that have overshadowed her, it just must be so painful, Jane. It was very interesting to hear from her, to meet her and just to get her side of the story. And I think people will be... I mean, there are elements of what she has to say that are quite challenging, aren't there?

Really challenging, but she doesn't shy away from them at all. And because she's written a book, having remained very, very silent for the last couple of years, and then she just decided that she really did want to tell her side of the story. So it's a very interesting book. I learnt a lot from it, Jane. I think what I learnt most from it, because we both read the book, is that, I mean, it's kind of obvious, but sometimes we forget this. If you come from a country like South Africa, and she came from a very, very tiny village, didn't she?

Yeah, in Limpopo, which is in northern South Africa. So it's miles from any of the big, it's not Cape Town, this isn't Johannesburg. And she was, well, it was pretty, she says they weren't poor, but they were certainly far from any of the luxuries that most of us take for granted on a daily basis. from any of the luxuries that most of us take for granted on a daily basis. And so if you come from that kind of background and you achieve international fame as an athlete, it is a world away from someone who, with the greatest respect to some of our wonderful athletes who've grown up in England or Scotland,

with all the facilities, with all the niceties we just completely assume are just our birthright, it's just a completely different set of circumstances. And I think the plain truth is, I think people like Caster make a lot of the rest of us feel a bit uncomfortable. I think that's a big aspect of it. So I really liked, maybe we should save this for tomorrow, so this will be my last comment on it, but I really enjoyed reading about her childhood and what she says about her childhood,

which is just how completely accepted she was when she was growing up, even though she played like a boy, she dressed like a boy, she spoke like a boy, she walked and talked like a boy, and there was never any suggestion from her community that anyone should be raising an eyebrow questioning who she was asking her to define her own identity and so that's the place that that she says in the book absolutely affirmed her and made her strong and able to deal with everything that came further down the line. But also you just have to always remember that she didn't know what her body was until she was 18 years old

and athletics forced her into a gender test. So there's so much going on there. And I really hope you enjoy the interview. I know that people will have thoughts about it. And I think what's almost impossible to do is to do an interview that pleases every side of a very, very polarised argument, nor should you want to, because it really is about her being able to tell her story. Also, it's just worth saying this is not an interview about trans issues because Castor is not trans.

It's not anything to do with that. Right. Let's get a wiggle on. Yes. We did say right at the start. Oh, we've just we've already we've already lost it, Jane. What was that? It's just a gay little laugh. Now, most recently, most recently indeed, didn't we, Fiona, get an email from our correspondent in the Swiss Alps, Anna Walker. Yes, who was enjoying the challenge of being an estate agent in a different language.

Yes, formerly a Sky correspondent and host of Wish You Were Here. Now, she agreed with us that... I don't know why I've started saying that, because it doesn't make any sense. Anne! You don't need to cut this out. It's just a measure of my inadequacy. Is it because one of your go-to phrases is,

she agreed with us? Well, which... And why wouldn't she? She realised that unless she learnt French, she would have to let her husband speak on her behalf, which obviously for us modern ladies is quite unthinkable. So we asked her to send us a little bit of a voice note with her good self, giving her best estate agent spiel in a foreign language. Just to help you out, dear listener, will be French. So here we go. Here she is. Hello, Jane and Fi. Anna Walker here. I hope I'm not interrupting any more phone calls.

Anyway, as requested, here's your French lesson for today. A tiled splashback is entre meubles en carrelage. And now for the sales pitch on chalets here in the Swiss Alps. I just need to try and rediscover my wish-you-were-here voice-over voice. Here goes. Nestled in the majestic mountains of the Val d'Annivier, just a couple of hours from Geneva, lies the authentic 15th-century village of Grements.

Property here is hard to find, especially newly built, fabulously furnished wooden chalets with spectacular views. Priced from two and a half to three and a half million Swiss francs, these sumptuous chalets will also benefit from a relaxing private spa to unwind after you've been out on the piste all day. By the way, Grimence in Switzerland is also known as Twin Peaks or Poitrine Allongée and is twinned with Long Bosom in Hampshire. Oh, she's not lost it. She's not lost it at all.

Far from it. Times Radio, sign her up. We need every radio, a self-respecting radio station needs a Swiss Alps correspondent. We certainly do. I love the tiled splashback. That sounds so much more exciting. Just sounded so gorgeous in French.

Anna, thank you very much for taking the time to do that. We do appreciate it. And just thank you for being a part of, as we always say, whatever this is. I like to imagine that at the end of that, there was a shot of Judith Chalmers. Cheers! Young Eve, no idea what we're talking about. She lived the life, did Judith. She was so tanned, wasn't she?

She just looked so bloody well. She looked very, very well. And she's got Claire Balding's hair. They both have very, very thick, lustrous hair. Wonderful. Good morning, says Tanya. You've probably made me laugh two days in a row. I could ramble, but a pracey is probably better.

I was that 16-year-old girl dating 19-year-olds at high school. I was never cool enough with the boys I was at school with, so just not worth it. The teachers were probably more interesting. Oh, dear. I know. My mum declared to me some years ago that I'd probably marry a man a fair bit older than me,

and I married my husband two months ago. He's 11 years older than me. We got together during the 2016 Olympics, as we watched a lot of it together. We've been friends for a while before that. I'm not really sure where that sits with all of your analysis, but don't worry. We don't plan on having kids. My two stepkids are just perfect enough. And thank you for saying nice things about the podcast, Tanya.

So, look, we had quite a few emails saying, I'm very happy with my older man. And I think Tanya's nailed it there because they have both got some Olympic references that they can share. So that disproves my theory. Yes. Well, I thought your theory was spot on, to be honest. Because if you can't really wax lyrical about Olga Corbett, what's the point?

Yeah. It's just, anyway, Ruth is somebody who would like to give us the following intel. My 80-year-old uncle from the southern United States came to visit recently. 80-year-old uncle, listen up from the back there, at the back rather, from the southern US, came to visit recently with his girlfriend, aged 38.

I'm the same age as Jane, so I'm halfway between uncle and girlfriend and she seemed very young to me. It was like having a teenager in the house. Perfectly pleasant but we had few points of connection mostly because she's 20 years younger than me and behaves even younger. Listening to my uncle whispering sweet nothings to her really did make me cringe. I'm not generally ageist, but a 42-year age gap does seem weird. I'm not surprised that my cousins, who are older than the girlfriend, are not entirely comfortable with the situation.

Ruth, gosh, I mean that. 42 years, what do you think about that? Well, I think 42 years is too long. I'm with you, sister. It's way too long. But we've got something right in the middle of these two examples, which comes in from Emma, who says, I find myself writing in relation to your recent comments on age gap relationships. I understand what you've been saying.

And yes, of course, there are differences. But I'm in such a relationship. I'm 45 and my partner is 23 years my senior. We've been together for 13 years. We have two children. I'm an educated woman, three degrees. And you say not typically pretty. And my partner is very supportive. I think we'd be the judge of that, Emma. And you haven't sent a photo, but I suspect that you are. We met on our daily train commute and began talking. And we talked every day for some time. You both asked what on earth people of different ages could talk about. Well, perhaps it's because I'm an only child

and spent a lot of time in the company of adults as a child. I had no problem talking about all sorts of things, particularly our shared love of slightly naff but comforting detective programmes like Columbo and Murder, she wrote. Then we decided to begin a relationship together. And you go on to say that my partner is a wonderful father. He's been very hands-on and had shared the duties of taking the children to playgroups, soft play, and now collecting them from school and can educate the kids on all sorts of things that I can't. My son particularly benefits from my partner's knowledge of history.

So I just wanted to let you know that it can work. I understand it's not perfect, but really good God what is. And that's a very good question to ask as well. So thank you for sharing that with me. And obviously I'm always happy to be corrected. I'm not ready. But it does sound like you've got a lovely life we welcome feedback we don't unless it's positive um this is a serious one from sue who says it's

actually quite annoying that everyone has an opinion and usually a negative one of an age gap relationship my husband is 18 years older than me we've been together since i was 28 and i'm now 65 Donny Osmond is 18 years older than me. We've been together since I was 28 and I'm now 65. We are amongst the few of our friends still together in a happy marriage. We've got two wonderful daughters and he still makes me laugh more than anybody else ever has. He's funny, he's loving and we have so much in common. He doesn't have to think that Donny Osmond was the best thing ever and we don't talk about him being a war baby much either.

We do share a love of the times crossword, commenting on a sarcastic manner about everything around us and generally getting on OK. We have a mix of friends of all age groups. We actually worked together for over 20 years and we have plenty to talk about. However, it hasn't been easy. Apparently, I was only ever after his money.

He was only ever interested in arm candy. And what on earth do you see in him? And so on and so on and so on. The world can be very judgmental. The only downside now, she says, is that he does have Alzheimer's. And that is something which has taken everything from us. But, and this is a big but, I wouldn't change a minute of my life with him, says Sue, which is lovely. Yes.

So I do take your point about the world being judgmental. And obviously, I'm a part of that because that's where this conversation started. So just glad to hear all of your examples. And I suppose, you know, there is that thing, isn't there, that tiny thing that you find in someone you love, you just can't find anywhere else. So, you know, maybe that does jump over the age difficulties. I think it's a very, I think it's hard, whichever way round it is,

when somebody faces, you know, possibly a very long time caring for an older partner, especially if you've got young kids, and I suppose that's one hazard of having a much older partner. And then without being too gloomy the question would be who will care for you? Oh gosh yes. You know you'd hope your children might but and you may find another partner and they may be a lot younger than you and willing to do it but... Yeah that's a good point. You know you do sometimes wonder we were talking and I honestly can't remember why,

I think it was me with my Wayne Rooney fantasies from yesterday, but we were talking about white noise. And as somebody who wants to be identified as a listener in Sussex, I mean, I'd keep quiet about being in Sussex. Oh, I love this one. Your reference to white noise in the context of tinnitus reminded me of a good story from many years ago when people did own those large radio sets with twisty buttons. Yeah, we remember those, don't we, Fi?

We do. My sister had squirrels in her attic. Have you ever had that problem? No. It's maddening. My former in-laws had it. And honestly, they ran rampant around the attic area, causing mayhem. I think they were sometimes mating.

And just dropping. Ooh. Droppings. Yeah. And much else besides. They'd chomp their way through all sorts of stuff. Anyway, my sister had squirrels in her attic but didn't want to put down poison or traps to kill them.

She'd heard that white noise would scare them away. So she climbed into the attic with her wireless, tuned it to white noise at full volume and went away for the weekend. When she got back, the squirrels were still there. But they'd retuned the wireless to Radio 2. Don't care

if that's not true. Absolutely love it. Of course, Times Radio didn't exist in those days. Oh dear. Right, I would just like to say a huge thank you to Kelly, who listens to us in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and to Susan, who was certainly in Lyme Regis on Sunday, sending delightful pictures of dogs and jackets,

and actually Kelly's dogs, and she's got a lovely picture of three hounds, one of them wearing a Halloween outfit. Oh, how lovely. Yeah, and actually I hadn't thought of that, of getting specialist outfits for different times of the different occasions. Spooky pets. Yes. But Kay, this is boring the pants

off Kay. Oh God, of course, yes, sorry. We have to get on. Not interested. Now, you mentioned the cob. Oh no, you mentioned Lyme Regis. Because I'm very literary, that made me think instantly of Jane Austen. As you'll hear our guest Julie Cooper refer to her in this interview, Jane Austen. Jane Austen.

Austen. And that, I was saying to Fee earlier, I don't think she was that engaged, that one of my English professors at the University of Birmingham also always referred to Jane Austen. And I also remember her telling us that actually the greatest writer in the English language was not William Shakespeare, who in her view was vastly overrated, but it was in fact Jane Austen.

And I kind of clung to that. I thought, OK, I'll take it. Is the Lyme Regis, what's the Lyme Regis reference? Persuasion. Oh, OK. Where's the French lieutenant's woman? That's also in Lyme Regis. Oh, OK, and that's what I'm thinking of, which isn't Austen.

No, it's very bizarre, but that's John, what's the name of the French lieutenant's Woman? That's also in Lime Regis. Oh, OK, and that's what I'm thinking of, which is in Austin. No, it's very bizarre, but that's John... What's the name of the French Lieutenant's Woman author? John Fowles? Yes. That's right, isn't it? Fowles. Fowles. I haven't read it anyway.

But it's bizarre that that particular place, and I think this is right, has got two pivotal scenes in both novels set in the Cobb in Lime Regis. Whoa, that's good to know. You're fun on a night out, aren't you? Literary references everywhere. I am, as you'll discover, not the best read person in the following conversation

because that person would be Julie Cooper, CBE, who has a new novel out. And so many people have loved her stuff over the years. because that person would be Julie Cooper, CBE, who has a new novel out. And so many people have loved her stuff over the years. It's not these days without a certain amount of difficulty, would that be fair? Just because she was writing at a time back in the 60s and then the 70s and then the 80s, and she's still writing now at 86. Some of her books do assume that men are men

and women are there to please the chaps and not raise too many issues. Would that be fair? I think that's very fair but as we find out in this interview Jilly's reasons for writing that I think

are very sincere and who can answer back to them. So you'll hear what I mean. I think she'd probably be the last person on earth to identify as a feminist hero or heroine. But actually, of course, she is one, isn't she? Of her own life, yeah. Yeah, she has absolutely lived the feminist dream,

making, I'm sure, a great deal of money off her own hard work and continues to bring pleasure to a lot of people. So, you know, it's quite interesting. It's just interesting. I mean, you can hear from this that I'm not as much of a wordsmith as Julie Cooper. I just read the queue. Which I wrote earlier. And if I say so myself, is one of my better attempts. Julie Cooper CBE has delighted millions of readers with her punny and rather jaunty novels set in fictional Russia. This is a place, if you're living outside the UK, doesn't exist,

but it's a place where alluring men in tight breeches brood a great deal. Women can sometimes be stable lasses and they have names like Lou Easy, that's E-A-S-Y. Yes, the stable lass Lou Easy, that's E-A-S-Y. Yes, the stable last Lou Easy in the novel, Tackle, is, I think it's fair to say, generous with her charms. Sex, it would seem, is never far from the thoughts of anybody in a Julie Cooper novel. And in the past... Sorry, I can't even read my own work. In the past, her characters have thrilled us.

My own work. My own work. With tales set in the worlds of show jumping. And my favourite, regional television. There's nothing more glamorous than regional news opt-out at 6 o'clock or 6.30, depending on where you are in the UK. In Tackle, Gilly visits what was... In Tackle, Gilly centres the action in what was,

at one point to her anyway, a foreign land, the world of professional football. But she's able to immerse herself in it because her hero, Rupert Campbell-Black, has bought a football club, and much shenanigans therefore ensues. Gilly told us what surprised her most about the world of football. I didn't realise that the players are very rich slaves.

Rich slaves? Yes, I mean, they get weighed every week. They put on anything that they get into trouble and the social media absolutely murders them and they can be sacked overnight. Also, once fame, if you walk down the street and everybody knows who you are, then suddenly nobody does

because men shut their doors against the setting sun. And so fame and tranquillity never bed for those, as Montaigne said. And I think they do have a difficult time, really, because social media's foul about them. The press are foul about them. So it's interesting. You see them as much more vulnerable... Yes, I do.

...than some people might. I do. I do. They give so much pleasure. They give so much joy. I mean, people are completely carried away by the wonder of football. If your team wins, you're absolutely ecstatic for a week, and if they lose, then you're a bit low. But it cheers everybody up, cheers the world up. And you had this now infamous lunch where you sat next to Sir Alex Ferguson. I did, I did. Now, he's a quite frightening man. Yes. Has a reputation for his old hairdryer treatment. Yes.

Where he'd ball out the players. Yes. What did he tell you? We just chatted and chatted and chatted and had a lovely time. I got slightly pissed and we just really got on well. He was so gentle and funny and marvellous and attractive and I just thought, well, why not really? And I told him a naughty story which he

laughed so much that he wrote it down. So no doubt he's making speeches around the country, he'll put my naughty story in. Is there any way you can give us some idea of what was in that naughty story? Well it was about three mice in a pub in Scotland, in Glasgow and they

were having a boast about who was the toughest mouse. And Aberdeen looked at him and said, I'm the toughest mouse. He said, I'm the toughest mouse. I went into the larder and there I saw a mouse trap. And I tore it open and I ate the cheese and I threw the mouse trap across the larder. And Aberdeen mouse looked at him and said, Edinburgh mouse looked at him and says, you big wuss, he said, you big wuss, he said. I'm the toughest mouse. I went into the larder and I found a great pile of rat poison and I snorted it, I snorted it.

I wasn't that brave to snort the mouse. I'm the toughest mouse. And they turned round and there was, there suddenly was a Glasgow mouse going towards the door. So they said, Glasgow mouse, Glasgow mouse, where are you going? I'm off to shag the cat. There we are. No wonder Sir Alex Ferguson was charmed.

That's why he held the dressing room. Yeah, blimey. Sorry, is that too strong? No, no, we can use that. Don't you worry about that, Julie. He did laugh, he did laugh. Yeah, I bet he did. Well, we have, to be fair.

Let's go into the world of Tackle. You've got such a huge collection of characters. I know, it's awful. I mean, well, there's a lot to keep up with, but listen, if you've got the time, particularly over the Christmas period, I imagine it would be a lovely world in which to immerse yourself.

I have to be honest, I'm a bit surprised that the character of Feral, the star player, he's a young, quite vulnerable lad. He's black. He is called Feral, and his mother is a drug addict did anybody say no that's you can't jilly don't say that make make the was feral i've written that rupture chronicles a sort of 10 of them and so there's two back with one called wicked about two schools sort of private school, public school and a state school.

And Ferrell was one of the main characters there. And so he's been going through all my stories. It came from a very difficult... His brother was shot there by some gang. And so he's built up as a character. So I think it's all right. Well, I mean, I don't doubt that and I appreciate he's been around. It's just that it stands out. And it's not the only thing that stands out if you i mean you do have for

example there's a humorless feminist would-be labour mp not all not all feminists are humorless no no i know some hilarious no i'm sure they are i can't remember who is she which is she well exactly that's madison no no no she's Well, exactly. That's Madison. No, no, no. She's Madison. She's married to the chap. She's married to Elijah. But she bullies him. She's horrid to him. Oh, I don't know, Jilly.

I mean, do you believe that, Fee? What? That some women can be unpleasant? Oh, I believe that. I believe that. No, she wasn't very kind to him. I mean, she wasn't very loving to him. She wasn't interested in his football.

There are also some grasping wags as well. Oh, I love that. Wag, well, that was my best joke, because you know the dog with the waggiest tail? Yes. So suddenly Dora, my person, oh, wonderful way to have the wag with the dodgiest tail. And then, yes, when you have a cat who's called Mewtwo.

Yes, that's right. So this is all unashamedly anti the political correctness that, well, does it blight our times the political correctness that, well, does it blight our times, political correctness? No, I just love the sexes. I mean, I had a lovely husband, a very happy marriage, and I just think the sexes should cherish each other. I think one of the nicest things I saw across the thing,

somebody was waving a book years ago I wrote called How to Stay Married. I think a happy marriage is wonderful, and I think a happy relationship. So I just think the sexes should celebrate each other, not put each other down all the time. They should love each other. Well, Fee's got a copy of your book, your seminal guide to staying married. It's called How to Stay Married. We should say, I mean, this is important, actually.

It came out in 1969. Which was the year that I was born, Charlie. So I was doubly intrigued by it. I was writing away when you were born. Yes, yeah, which was the year that I was born, Charlie. Darling. So I was doubly intrigued by it. I was writing away when you were born. Yes, you were, you were, you were. Sweet thing. So I wonder what you make of this now. So a lot of it, to me, do you know what?

I sometimes felt slightly pained that women were in such a tricky place, but of course they were back in 1969. And the notion that you had to be very pleasing to a man in order to stay married, I find that quite a painful concept now, and I wonder whether you do now, you know, we are 54 years down the line. No, I think everybody ought to be, I mean, if you live with somebody, you ought to be pleasing to them and they ought to be pleasing to you.

I mean, you ought to be cheering them up and if they have a job, you help them and you have a job. I think it's reciprocal love. I think they ought to both look after each other. Yeah. I really do. Can we talk about sex?

We're going to go to sex very early in the interview and we'll come back and talk about football a bit. Well, that's the other thing and that i was thinking about as i read through how to stay married that actually is it i've got such a long time since i've read that what is sex in that oh yes uh so uh i can read what does it say hang on a second uh bed sex intercourse making love call it what you like it's the cornerstone of marriage If the sex side of a marriage is really good You seldom hear of it breaking up

And if you keep your partner happy in bed He's unlikely to stray And if he does, he nearly always comes back Yes, if you amuse a man in bed I remember writing that I was very proud of that line If you amuse a man in bed He's not likely to worry about the mountain of dust underneath

Well, that's very true. You'll be consumed with something else. But our world has changed so much in terms of sex, hasn't it? And do you feel comfortable still writing about sex? Well, no, I'm 86 now. Yes, but you could still be thinking about it a lot. You could have followed the social, sexual morals. Well, no, I mean, I've written so many books.

I mean, there's a limited amount of ways to do it, isn't there? So it's a bit more difficult to think of completely new ways to describe it. And so I'm not sure that people are having... People aren't so romantic now. I don't know. Evidently, people... Actually, when people get married, I mean, most people, when they get married, think...

Well, lots of people do. This is forever. But they don't... They don't know. They think, oh, it might last three years or so, which is really sad. Hmm. The sex in Tackle, and there is some, forever, but they don't know. They think, oh, it might last three years or so, which is really sad. The sex in Tackle, and there is some,

is, I mean, it's just fun, utterly consensual. There's no suggestion that anybody is being coerced. But out there in the real world, there's a lot of, well, frankly, from my perspective as a woman of nearly 60, I know, thank you, Julie, that's why I said it. Don't look it. Exactly, thank you, keep it coming. It feels to me like a much more dangerous world than it used to be and that the sex that is so easily accessible to our young people,

on their phones, violent porn. Does it worry you? Yes, it does. I think children watch porn, they can watch porn on television at any age, can't they? Which I think is really, really awful, sad. What would you do about it? Take away their telephones, I suppose. And that's the difficulty, isn't it?

Because we all would love... Oblongitis. All you see in London, coming up to London, I live. And that's the difficulty, isn't it? Because we all would love... Oblongitis. Everybody, all you see in London, coming up to London, I live in the country where everybody spends their time, they walk along the road looking at their telephones. Somebody said the other day, footballers aren't very good socially anymore because they're so used to looking at their telephones when they go to parties

they can't think what to say to people. Somebody wrote that the other day. Well, that doesn't entirely surprise me and I'm sure it doesn't just apply to footballers. It applies to almost anybody under the age of 35. Do you feel a responsibility about the way you write sex? Because you wouldn't want to give people the wrong impression about it. And as I say, the sex in here is just a fun thing. I think it's a lovely thing. It encourages people to have lovely sex. Obviously, you are, you've said yourself,

you're 86. Is it... The most interesting thing, there's a very nice woman I know, she's 89 now, and she's just gone on social media, online, and she's met a man, and she's having the most wonderful, she's ranked me up as

the most wonderful sex life of her life. At 89? She had the most boring husband, and she's having the most wonderful sex life of her life she's absolutely having the most wonderful at 89? She had the most boring husband and she said he was terrible but she's now got a lovely new man at 89 she's a hope for everybody isn't she? Yes, her poor husband though, I mean obviously he's not around

No, no, no, he was very bossy Oh was he? Okay, that sounds good He wasn't nice, he was bossy and very up himself and not her, Sorry for stopping. No, no, that's good. That's him done for anyway. Voice over describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. Voice over on settings.

So you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Our guest on the pod today is Jilly Cooper, the novelist. She has a new book out set in the world of football. It's called Tackle. Now, I mentioned to her that the current prime minister, Rishi Sunak, is apparently one of her biggest fans. Isn't that lovely?

It was so sweet when he said he was. He named riders and rivals and polo and all of them. Isn't that lovely? Well, it is good. I think it's wonderful. I mean, I suppose in a way, do you think some people in a rather snobbish way might have wanted him to mention,

I hesitate to say this, but perhaps a less successfulobbish way, might have wanted him to mention, I hesitate to say this, but perhaps a less successful author than you, but somebody who's regarded as a bit more literary. Yes. I mean, I'm saying years and years and years ago that writers like me long and long for a kind word in The Guardian and people who get a kind word in The Guardian

long and long for my sales. And I suppose there is, I don't know really. I mean, I try to be literary. I wrote a book called British in Love, I mean a collection of poems once and I've been a bit literary sometimes. And Rupert now is my hero now. He quotes Shakespeare now because he got a GCSE

because he met somebody to do it years ago and he got a GCSE in English literature. Now he quotes Shakespeare too. He was a Tory MP Rupert Campbell Black wasn't he? And too. He was a Tory MP, Rupert Campbell-Back, wasn't he? He was. And he's the kind of Tory MP who probably would be turfed out of Parliament these days.

I know they were. I mean, in the old days, they were all at it. I used to live in a flat in Westminster and the MPs were always ringing up and saying, just come back from the house, darling. Just come back from the house. Come and have a drink. I've had a pasting over the milk bill come and have a drink and they were all randy's anything in those days too did you i mean did you have any um liaisons with with these

gentlemen no i'm a good girl you've said of the upper classes you've noted that they just adore their sex and i wonder uh i mean presumably moving amongst some of them as you probably do in in gloucestershire whether you can put more so than in dalston uh no but can you put your finger on why is it just because there isn't you know there isn't an imperative to be thinking about all of the other things that might stop you from having sex. Like working. Yes, working and stuff like that. What do you think it is? It intrigues me. I think the upper class men automatically assume

that everybody wants to go to bed with them because they are a randy lot in my experience. And do people want to go to bed with them? Are they charismatic? They're the glamorous ones, I'm sure they do. OK, some of them are quite unattractive, though, aren't they? I'm always struck by that. Whenever you go behind the velvet rope at a National Trust property,

some of the portraits are truly horrible, Gilly, aren't they? Sorry. You haven't gone off on a tangent there. I mean, just as Fee treasures her copy of How to Stay Married, I'm a big fan of your book about the class system. It was called Class, wasn't it?

It was. And there were some very funny characters in that. Harry Stocrat. Harry Stocrat. Jen Teal. Yes, Jen Teal. She was at the lower middle, yes. Yes, at the lower middle, that's right.

And then who else? The Nouveau... Nouveau Richards. The Nouveau Richards, that's right. And then the Upwards, which were sort of upper middle. That's right. I think they were some man through Upwards. God, it's a. And then the upwards, which were sort of upper middle. That's right. I think they were some mantha upwards. God, it's a complicated world, the British glass system.

Do you think it's changed in any way? I was told it was coming back. Somebody told me the other day it was coming back. I haven't seen any signs of it in Gloucestershire, but it is coming back. What signs might you see in Gloucestershire? I don't know. I occasionally go there.

Where do you go when you go to Gloucestershire? Oh, no, I'd rather not talk about that, Ginny. It's lovely, Gloucestershire. No, it is lovely. I used to work in local radio in Herefordshire and Worcestershire. Oh, isn't it beautiful? No, I was very lucky there. Very lucky. But it is interesting, the class system.

Now, you, I think, used to identify as upper middle. No, I'm middle, but I'm sort of... I say sort of upper middle, darling. You're up upper middle. No, no'm middle, but I'm sort of... I say sort of upper middle, darling. You're up upper middle, or you're up... No, no, no, no, no, no. Middle, upper middle, I think. I don't know. I think I'm sort of a bit upper middle.

I don't know. What do you think you are, V? Middle. Just absolutely straightforward middle. I think I'm lower middle middle. How do we define it, though? No, I don't know. It's very difficult.

I mean, because in the old days, it used to be when people went to public schools rather than state schools, but that's all gone now. So where do the footballers fit into? Footballers on the whole mostly, most of them are state school. But footballers I think mostly start off working class

and then come up absolutely amazing and soar into the heavens. So through writing the book, did you watch an awful lot of matches that were happening around you? Did you watch some of the all-time classics? Had you always watched football? No, I hadn't. But when I went on a local paper when I was 16,

when I left school, I went to Brentford and I used to be sent to cover the police and talk to the farm and talk to everybody and also watch football, oh Brentford how could you that was one of my headlines so I did watch it then but I Did you watch more football when you were actually writing the book?

Oh yes I did, I went to Forest Green for my lovely local team and then I went to Reading and then Lord Hard took me to Liverpool, which is lovely. I went to lots of exciting matches. I mean, football's lovely. Yeah, I think you met Steven Gerrard, didn't you, at Liverpool?

Yes, he's sweet. Is he? Terribly nice, yes. Lovely. Did anybody underwhelm you from the world of football? I don't think so. No, well, that's good. I'm glad they lived up to expectations. They were lovely, but I just think it's a very, very exciting game.

I always watch Soccer Saturday. Do you? I sometimes watch that, Julie. I'll now watch it knowing that you're also watching it. That's rather nice. It's good, though, isn't it? It is. It's a very good show. I don't know if you saw the state opening of Parliament.

Did you see it yesterday? No, no, I didn't. No, but how do you think the King is doing? I think it's a hell of a job to follow his mother, who's so sweet and gorgeous. I think he's doing fine, and Camilla's doing brilliantly too. I think he's doing fine. I just think it's a very, very difficult job

to have to go abroad to all these places which say, oh, we want to be at the court, we don't want to be part of England anymore. It's sad for him. But how should he play it? Because you're right, it is quite a tricky one, that. I think he's just got to go and be nice to everybody. He's very good at plants.

I know he does things in the country. He's good at making the countryside better, isn't he? Have you sent the Queen a copy of Tackle? Have you heard back? No, not yet. Well, she has got a few other things to do, but I'm pretty sure...

I mean, I imagine she'll learn quite a lot from this book. I think she knows it all anyway. Does she? Right. Well, she might well do. The one thing I would take you up on in terms of football is your football chants. They tend to be really quite unpleasant, let's be honest. Sometimes quite funny, but often deeply unpleasant. Like which one?

Well, no, yours. I'm not going to repeat any of the ones I know, but yours are just incredibly lovely. Our laddie Haywood, he always plays good. Our fair laddie, he's never a baddie. Well, that's just lovely. Yes, and Rupert Campbell Blackwood, isn't he? Yeah, and there's another one that I really liked.

When you're in peril, send for feral. I mean, that's just... If only football fans did chant like that, Julie. Yes, I like doing the songs. Dolphy, my little boy Dolphy, he had a nice song too. Yes, I'm sure. I mean, we should actually mention that Dolphy is the young player who has a gay relationship,

and we are still in a situation where there are no gay male out footballers. I think there's one or two, isn't there? Well, not in the current game, not playing right now. Does that sadden you? Because clearly there almost certainly are gay players who are just too frightened to come out. Which is a shame. No, I mean, no, I think Elijah, my hero, is gay and I adore him.

And so I just want him to be happy like I want everybody to be happy. From your vantage point, Julie, of being a hugely, hugely successful author... Am I? Well, of course you are. Own it. Own it. Woman, gosh, yes, of course you are. And also, through your writing, you've looked at lots of different areas of life.

Is there anything that you wish that you had done differently as a younger woman, a path that you can see that now seems more appealing now you're in your 80s, or is your success absolutely the right thing that's happened to you? I mean the worst awful thing no I'm just very very very grateful for it but I mean the awful thing that happened

was years ago I wrote a book called Riders but ten years before I took it out, I had to write about 100,000 words of it, I took it out to lunch to do some corrections on the bus Oh I think I'll Yes, awful, you can imagine this and so I it out to lunch to do some corrections on the bus. Oh, I think I'll... Yes, awful.

Can you imagine this? And so I had a lovely lunch. I can't even remember Freud, who I had lunch with, but then we got a bit pissed. And I got back to Putney and it had gone. So I lost the manuscript. Can you imagine the horror? No.

Oh. That's terrible. But 10 years later I finished it and it was a much better book than it would have been. So I've been very, very touching. I've been very lucky in life. It was much better later. But you're also very good at what you do.

So it's not just luck, is it? It's very kind, very kind. I work quite hard. I'm amazed by football journalists because they write this miraculous stuff. Me and her and people like that, they're so good. And the Times, Northcroft, I mean, wonderful writers. They write it so quickly.

I mean, they write a marvellous piece in about half an hour. I used to have 15 drafts of everything. It's a very good point to make, actually. They make essentially the same story every week look enticing and different every week don't they and just very briefly jilly you are you are a place and a person that people come to for joy and comfort and for a bit of escapism who do you go to um homer homer no yes i like reading i like reading homer and i like reading Stendhal. I read everything.

At the moment I've just been reading football books, but to keep me in the loop because I've got to try and remember things. But no, I'm just trying to think of Jane Austen, George Atteyer. George Atteyer, good names. Well, hats off to anyone who's got in their library a book by Homer next to a book by George Atteyer. That's just fantastic. Good writer, Homer. Yes, very good writer.

He's stood the test of time, hasn't he? Well, we don't know that people aren't going to be reading Tackle in 3,000 years, do we? Darling, I don't think... What's it called? Not called A1, it's called something else, isn't it? AI. AI.

Oh, no, AI's not going to manage to beat you or Homer. That's kind of you, Simeon Homer. Thank you. Yes, absolutely. Julie Cooper, CBE. Tackle is out tomorrow. I think she'll outlive artificial intelligence, won't she, Fee?

For heaven's sake. Yes, I think so too. And we were playing a little game on the radio show this afternoon that we'd happily play with you. We'd like some very odd juxtapositions on your bookshelves or your bedside table because to have Homer knocked up against a Georgette Hare is quite something. And we were saying, so Matt Chorley was knocked up against Jilly Cooper's How to Stay Married on my office desk this week.

And you are bound to have some very odd ones. Where would you put our work? Our work? Did I say that out loud? Still available. And it's not too late for a little Christmas surge in sales. Well, I mean, embarrassingly, our work is shacked up next to our work because I've got that enormous stack of ones that you just couldn't give away.

Oh, don't. I won't hear that. So, yeah. Anyway, all hail to someone who's, you know, picking up the Iliad or the Odyssey and having a quick leaf through it. Now listen, I mean, any woman who can own up to both enjoying Homer, and I don't doubt that by the way,

and watching Soccer Saturday is alright with me. Yeah, it's a very good mix. Julie Cooper is one of those people who I think we were talking about this, weren't we? She's one of those people who sets out to enjoy herself. I mean, I'm guessing. I don't know obviously what's going on inside her head. Sets out to enjoy herself, decides she's going to like people

and pretty much moves through the world in that way. And it seems to have served her rather well. Yeah, she was very charming. Yes, yeah. I mean, I think there are life lessons to be learned there. Have you learned them? Well, it's early days.

She only left the building a couple of hours ago. See whether it rubs off. I'll report back to you, dear listeners. So if you'd like to get involved in that or anything else that we're chuntering on about, it's janeandfee at times.radio. Carry on reading the book, Trent Dalton, Boy Swallows Universe. We're going to discuss that November the 24th.

And Sue, who's in Suffolk, not that far away from Six Mile Bottom, which has come up quite a lot in our listeners' correspondence as the place that should be twinned with long bosom. But Sue also asks,

wasn't there a character in Ali McBeal who made a face bra? I think there was. There was. Somebody sent us an image of that. Yes. So the face bra was just meant to hold up your jowls? To hold up your chins, yeah. Keep them all going vertical. OK. Well, that'll be in a Christmas catalogue somewhere, won't it?

Well, I've got some vegetarian sausages to look forward to, followed by Shetland, so we must get home. Well, I tell you what, it's Shetland. It's the last ever season three of The Morning Show and the Robbie Williams documentary is available now on Netflix. So I'm up for all night. All night? Yes.

Of course. I don't know what to go for first. What time do you go to bed? Oh, well, about ten. Yeah, exactly. So don't pretend you're down with the kids watching the telly all night. Right, OK. Have a very good evening, everybody.

Good night. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler,

the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man, it's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he was an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at three o'clock, Monday until Thursday every week, and you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day, as well as

a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing with us, and we hope you can join entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing with us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone