Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Fantastic equipment, massive nipples

Episode Date: January 17, 2024

Jane is struggling to train a cat, Fi is unconvinced by slip-on shoes, and some tortoises somewhere are having very loud sex.They're joined by author and historian Bettany Hughes to talk about her latest book "The Seven Wonders of the Ancient World".Plus, all this week on their Times Radio show, Jane and Fi will focus on pornography and the impact it has. If you want to follow along with this conversation, make sure you're tuning into Times Radio every day this week at 4:20pm.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Good evening, everybody.

Or good morning. Because you could be anywhere in the world. Good afternoon. I just fill in the gaps here. Good night. Good night. Yes, sleep well. We did say we didn't want to hear from anyone who's in a lovely sunny place, but Nafisa took no notice

and wants to tell us she's having a lovely time in Spain. We're not interested. It's just catnip to some people. They can't resist. This one comes from Kate who's listening in Toronto and Canada, which I imagine would be very, very, very, very cold. So welcome aboard, Kate. I love the

podcast, reminding me, as it does, of my mum, Val, and my dear auntie Viv, yakking at the kitchen table over a cuppa. Yakking. My mum emigrated from the UK to Canada in the 50s, and I know that my mum wished that she had more time with Viv than the separation allowed. They're both gone now, but listening to you both calls to mind those kitchen table chats peppered with laughter. Although I do love the podcast, I couldn't help but take exception to Fee's offhand remark that cats could not be trained. Well, can I back up my sister in podcasting here?

Because I also struggle to train a cat. But carry on. Well, Kate's got she's got a different tack. I've trained a long line of cats to do various tricks dating back to the 70s most recently i've trained the family's beloved cat pete to ring a bell he can now check into any number of well-appointed hotels as he sees fit and there's a little attachment there as well i've been told never to click on an attachment so i don't tend to click on things i mean i'm sure you're kosher kate and i'm sure that pete's a dab hand with his bell but i just don't i just don't i wouldn't be able to train any of my cats to do anything so

maybe it's a failing of me uh but uh i i may actually go to my grave believing that cats cannot be trained and i will too but if you can train cats let us know we've had a disgusting email about tortoises having sex oh this is brilliant well i know i haven't got it it's not the top here but i'm going to i'm going to find it okay um and thank you to everybody who has emailed about porn we will get we'll get onto some of those and i absolutely i said on the radio program just about 10 minutes ago that some people have just been in touch to say they're just not remotely interested and and I and Fee then said and I think Fee's right that it's absolutely fine not to be remotely interested and to never have used it or looked at it in your life and never had any inclination to

but I do think she's right when she says that if you have adolescent children or indeed children I'm afraid you don't have the option not to be interested. It's just as simple as that because they are going to be seeing it. Yeah, it is a new norm. And you've got to know about it. Yeah. You've got to know. I'm afraid you've got to know what they're likely to have seen. be the brave parent who goes upstairs and types in lots of different things to a search engine that you think teenagers might find funny or be curious about and actually see what comes up. I

mean, that is the only way of informing yourself and you don't have to stay with it for a long time. But I think our generation is our ignorance that has led to what is quite a catastrophic thing at the moment and ignorance in a in a good way though because you haven't wanted to go to the dark side and it's just different isn't it because you don't have to go out and take lots and lots of drugs to have a conversation with your kids about drugs I think because you see depictions of drug-taking you would have come across it in films, you probably would have talked about it,

but pornography is different. It's been so under the radar, Jane. Well, we do have an email here from a listener who did do exactly that and who attempted to have a conversation with her child about porn. And as you can hear, I'm just grappling for it now. Yes, here we are.

I don't need to mention the name. I'm catching up with your podcast this week. I have a 12-year-old boy and a 16-year-old girl, and I want to know what to talk to them about porn. Exactly what do you say? It's a difficult subject to discuss. I did bring it up at dinner. My husband was there as well to try to make it a casual conversation.

But my kids and my husband nearly choked on their dinner when I did. Probably not the best time then. I know you're meant to say it's not real and they're just acting, but at this stage, do they need to know a bit more? In the past, I've said I've listened to a radio programme and they say this, etc., but I just need some guidance on what do you say. She describes herself as clueless.

I don't think you're clueless. I think you're entirely, entirely typical. And there's another email here from a listener who says, I feel powerless about my nine-year-old son's potential exposure, inevitable exposure to porn. I'm pleased you're discussing this. You asked to hear from people who don't use porn and I am one of those people I've never seen it I've no interest in it

for me it's quite simple although I'm sure that there would be stuff I could view that I would find arousing I just can't justify prioritizing my own sexual satisfaction over the physical sexual and mental safety of other women. I will be interested to hear from the ethical porn maker that you mentioned speaking to, but let's face it, the majority of porn doesn't fit into the category I might like and I just don't want to be part of the demand that fuels what I see as violence against women.

Yeah, and I really hear you on that. Totally get it. Erica Lust was the ethical pool maker who was on the times radio show today and you can spool back can't you on the app and hear the program so you will be able to hear erica lust so if you go to the program we go out between three and five she was on at about it was about uh 20 plus four yeah 20 plus four today yeah just spool through um and this one comes in from tanya uh who wanted to draw our attention and therefore your attention uh to a fantastic documentary series and it was a podcast a few years back called the butterfly effect made by john ronson

and we did talk to john ronson at the time didn't we about exactly that very very clever man he is and hid uh so it was done at the time as tanya notes when an awful lot of porn became free you know so you could just log on and off you go and he he is so clever it starts with him seeing a porn star checking into a hotel and she's in the lobby and uh he knows that quite a few people around her recognize her because of what she does for a living but will not go over and say hello or show that they recognize her because that's something they just have a connection with her in private and so it got him thinking about horn's connection to the real world and it is an absolutely brilliant series and as

jane and i was saying in the office earlier there's something so wonderful about john because he's really not a macho macho man so when he talks to people i find it always very i find his take on female issues as a male interviewer always really really spot on so if you can find the butterfly effect i would highly recommend having a listen to that too. You're right, he's incisive, but in no way threatening. Yes, yeah. It's an approach that really pays off. I wish some other people would learn from it.

Wish I would learn from it. Anonymous says, I took the bull by the horns and started to talk to my 14-year-old son about porn. I led with the usual how was your day and then went on to ask if anybody has ever shown him any dodgy stuff in the playground. He was definitely squirmy, but I stayed chatty and open so he didn't feel judged. He said he stays away from the horrible stuff. So immediately I knew he definitely seen some sort of porn and occasionally looks for porn

himself. I spared him the embarrassment of asking what search terms he uses. Yes, I'm glad you did that. I told him to be careful though and that if anybody sends him anything really dodgy to call them out and tell them it's not on. He said he would and also told me his friends aren't like that and I think that's probably true because they all seem lovely. We also talked about violence and aggression and he understood that's not what women want in a sexual relationship. Should I have told him not to look at it at all? asks our correspondent. I want to keep him on side and open but is that enough for now? Or should I have said he was too young to be looking at it at all and been more firm with him I do feel a bit sick now and I'm wondering what he's looking at gosh um I don't

know I mean it's not for me I don't have I do have children I don't have teenage sons and I'm not sure that in this day and age to be honest about it you can say don't look at it because he may not be in charge of what he's seeing anyway people are going to show it to him and it looks as though that's already happened i think the one thing that you can definitely try and impart to kids is just the i mean it's such an obvious thing to tell them but just you can't unsee an image so you know if you make the comparison to other really good things that you've seen you know the fact that especially teenage boys you know they can repeat it depends which era you come from any number of scenes from the simpsons or modern family or whatever it is they like

and it is the same logic for pornography you cannot unsee what you've seen and so if someone's showing you something frightening or something that you find disturbing something that's just ugly you're never going to be able to get that image out of your mind. It will stay in your brain and clog up your brain. And actually, you know, teens don't want that. Children don't want that. So it is, you know, it's the flip side of what's good about their world that they can see lots of really pleasurable things. Yeah, well, you don't know what you've got till it's gone. And sometimes a certain amount of innocence

is worth clinging on to, isn't it? Now, I'm just going to read this email just to act as a little bit of a breaker before we talk about sexual activity of tortoises, which is that one there. Oh, yes, it's a good idea to have a little natural break. Let's have a buffer. And the buffer comes from Gemma.

We could just play a bit of music here. That'd be nice, wouldn't it? Just do a little bit of gentle humming. Right, here comes Gemma. After a long labour with my daughter, we had to go back into hospital for a few nights as she was jaundiced. And after those nights of watching her

flaring around with goggles on under a blue light, waking up every few hours to feed her, my milk came in. Do you know what, sister? I hear you on that. I had one of those experiences myself, and it's really terrifying, isn't it? And they're unforgettable experiences, aren't they? Aren't they just? Yeah.

I was struggling to breastfeed as she had a tongue tie, which we didn't know about at the time. The nurse asked the breastfeeding team to come and help. They arrived at the same time as a team of paediatricians assessing my daughter. And just as the room was packed full, the nurse looked at my breasts and loudly declared, fantastic equipment, massive nipples. For God's sake. This feedback was quite unsolicited and they're not that massive i sat there thinking my name is jemma and i used to have a career i used to be someone welcome to motherhood uh we

just send we send love we send a warm hug jemma and honestly just leave our nipples alone yes although you do sort of at that point suddenly realise what they're for, those things that you've kind of lugged around with you all your life and then turned out they had this purpose. Who knew? Right. This is from Kath. She says she's just got a lot to say. And indeed she has on a variety of subjects. I'll try and make room for most of them. Tortoises, she says. She claims we've talked about tortoises. I suppose we must have done. We've talked about most things. Well, we did because I think it was, there was something to do with Matt Chorley and some mating, mounting tortoises, wasn't there? Gosh, I don't know.

Humphrey was my... Maybe that was a dream. Could have been. Kath says Humphrey was her tortoise. We got Humphrey as a two-for-one offer, a bog off, from the local pet shop in 1980. Right, I mean, you couldn't do that now, could you?

I don't even think you can buy tortoises. No, I think they're very specialised now. Anyway, Humphrey still lives with my 83-year-old dad in his walled garden. Ill-fitting fences and foxes in my area of south-west London, which is why Kath cannot currently look after Humphrey. He had a great time, did Humphrey, back in the 90s when we were given a Frida to look after for a summer. Frida was a Galapagos-sized tortoise, but Humphrey was game and chased her around the garden for regular shags. This is the really, really terrifying bit.

shags. This is the really, really terrifying bit. The prehistoric roar they emitted was quite horrendous and my mother was disgusted at the tortoise porn that she regularly witnessed from the kitchen sink. So disgusted in fact that she gave Frida to opposite tortoise free neighbours for the rest of the summer. We did have some explaining to do when Frida was returned to her original owner with a somewhat worn out shell from all the banging and a bit of a bow legged walk. Poor Frida. Well actually maybe not

poor Frida, maybe in fact a little bit of me time or them time with Humphrey had been just what she wanted and then she got a kind of leisure break round at the neighbours and then back home. Yeah, but maybe that was a swagger that she was kind of carrying.

A jaunty swagger. Yeah, the walk of shame. So this is a true reason for a friend of mine cancelling a lunch date with me. So you can see, I'm just reading from my screen here. Don't laugh, but my tortoise isn't very well. I need to take him to the vet. Is there any chance you could meet more like 11, 11.30 for a pre-lunch thing?

Appointments are very limited with a tortoise specialist. I'm sorry to hear that the tortoise is unwell. Is this a recent message you've had? It was, it was quite often. But I also just thought, I mean, if that was a made-up excuse, then, I mean, all hail, because you're not really going to doubt it it's just not dredging the bottom of the barrel no it's so specific it's not the usual oh i'm not feeling great today do you mind if it's very specific the detail about the fact that a tortoise specialist uh and then she does apologize a bit further down

the line i'm going to do a bit of politics now and say, it's probably easier to see a tortoise specialist than get an appointment with a GP. Boom, boom. Right. Kath has had a lively old existence. Simon Le Bon, I heard him interviewed once talking about splitting his trousers on stage,

and he referred to the fact that all his junk had been on display. Is this still Kath? Yes. I couldn't help shouting all his junk at every referral to Simon Le Bon, especially when you talked about him wearing a sarong. And finally, this is the bit that tipped her over the edge and made her absolutely committed to emailing us. The tipping point today

was hearing about petra's rescue of a canary this is another friend of yours presumably not the one who also owns the tortoise no this is petra peace friend kath says i was at newcastle uni back in the day and we found a budgie in the hedge by our front door in benwell my flatmate's grandma sent us a cage and all the bits she wasn't done that quite quickly but anyway my flatmate's grandma sent us a cage and all the bits. She must have done that quite quickly. But anyway, my flatmate's grandma sent us a cage and all the bits and we collected cuttlefish bones from Whitley Bay for him or her. We named him or her Bud. She's non-binary and completely acceptable. And he, she only ever made a noise when Brown Eyed Girl by Van Morrison came on. So we don't know the sex,

but we do know that Bud loved a bit of Van. After our two years in our student house, we had to leave Bud on a pub doorstep with a note as none of us could take Bud home. By the way, it was a house of four Catherines, a Kit, a Koo, a Katie and me, Kath. That's just brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

So it would be great, wouldn't it, if we could find the person who took Bud on, a coo, a Katie, and me, Kath. That's just brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. So it would be great, wouldn't it, if we could find the person who took Bud on, a nationwide search. This is when we need... What was the show that did that kind of thing? Was it one by Cilla? Didn't she do Surprise, Surprise? Surprise, Surprise.

The mold came and hit me between the eyes. You know, they found funny kind of reuniting stories. It was always that relative. And, you know, they'd flown in from Australia. And on some occasions, their reunions on the telly, you know, you never really got the impression. Sometimes I don't think they'd wanted to come at all. No.

They'd gone missing deliberately. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. And sometimes, didn't you think that on This Is Your Life, where they'd introduce somebody and they'll see they haven't done enough research and the doors would open and they'd say and here he is your long lost first ever boyfriend Brian and I mean the look on whoever it was his face would be like no I don't want to see Brian again you've ignited a little memory for me the only time that showbiz came calling in my very early life two occasions. One's when I got a Blue Peter badge

just off the scale excitement and another occasion when a neighbour's husband was invited to appear on Jim Dale's This Is Your Life. You know Jim Dale from the Carry On films? Yeah. He'd done he'd been in the RAF with Jim Dale

and he got the call up to be on the show but it went missing in the post the letter and he missed it no i know no was it michael aspels this is your life or amon home it's amon amon's era yeah i i didn't really like i didn't i didn't find michael aspel's era as appealing at all i don't know why well i took against him as quite a young child. I always remember thinking his slip-on shoes were not very convincing. Right, now, who does Prince Fred look like? Thank you very much indeed for correspondence on this.

Actually, he's now the King of Denmark. You're absolutely right. So in at number two was Laura, who's listening to us in a rainy Sydney, who said, I think Prince Fred looks like Nish off EastEnders. I think that's a very, very good example. It's very good. Extraordinary.

But as soon as I read Thelma, who is listening to us in Prince Edward Island in Canada, she said Michael Sheen. It's Michael Sheen. He looks like Michael Sheen. It is Michael Sheen. With a beard. Yeah, it's him.

Right. Wow. Well, royalty has been very much in our thoughts today because we've had these two very significant bits of royal health news about the king having a prostate issue, which he's going into hospital for treatment for next week, and also the Princess of Wales already being in hospital, having had abdominal surgery.

So we wish them both well in the unlikely event either of them is listening. But seriously, it is, let's be honest, slightly concerning news that a woman of 42 has got to stay in hospital for up to a fortnight. And she has young kids. We do honestly hope she's all right. And tomorrow on this very podcast, you'll be able to hear the royal author Robert Hardman, who has written about... He's written an autobiography of Charles III.

Yes, that's right. But do you know what? Out of all of the royal writers, I think he really, really, really knows his stuff. Yeah. And his sources are close to the royal family. Yeah. No, that's very true indeed. In fact, Princess Royal has provided quite a few of the nuggets in this new

book sources are the royal family yes it is the royal family yes yes just very briefly before we get on to uh bettany hughes who's a great guest uh today i did read katie prescott has written this article uh in the times business pages today um and she's a technology business editor at the times about the future of AI and chatbots. And honestly, you know, I used to joke about being cared for by a robot carer. I mean, that was sort of a silly, fatuous throwaway remark, but that reality is getting closer and closer. And ChatGPT is now offering something called a replica,

the AI companion who cares, always available to listen and talk and always on your side. There are clear advantages to robot friends, Fi. This will appeal to you. They are programmed to be patient, reliable, they won't judge, and you can engage without fear.

Okay, well, the last one. And this is the bit that really upsets me in a way they need attention which can make people talking to them feel wanted oh is that really what lies ahead for the human race but also i would argue that the best of friendships contain all of that slightly toxic shit too that's why you're good friends with somebody, because that's in the mix as well. You know, the anodyne, you know, strokey-strokey, that wouldn't work. I'd like a bit of that. But yes, only a little bit.

I'm fascinated by our human reaction to AI in that kind of context, because if what that friendship with an AI bot gives you is the same warm response as true friendship and the same empathetic response as true friendship then who gives a toss if it's a bot I would definitely definitely in my old age rather have a bot than nothing oh god 100% yeah yeah pop that on a tshirt. And if they can do the washing up. Yeah. And make a chicken ramen. Yeah, okay.

All right. It's very demanding. Mix a cocktail. Very demanding. Have you stopped? Do the hot water bottle. Okay. VoiceOver describes

what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day.

Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Hey, listeners. Want to diversify your portfolio easily? The all-in-one ETFs from Fidelity Investments Canada lets you do just that. Each ETF provides exposure to stocks, bonds, and crypto, so you can potentially maximize your return. It's essentially like getting a complete portfolio in one trade. Visit fidelity.ca slash all-in-one and find the ETF that's right for you. Commissions,

fees, and expenses may apply. Read the fund or ETF's prospectus before investing. Funds and ETFs are not guaranteed. Their values change and past performance may not be repeated. Now, the seven wonders of the ancient world were staggeringly audacious impositions on our planet. Incarnations of the beautiful, mour mournful axiomatic truths of our species that we're compelled to make the world in our image and modify it to our will this is just one sentence from bethany hughes introduction her latest book is called the seven wonders of the ancient world and she tells us about the pyramids of of Giza, the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, the Temple of Ephesus,

the Colossus of Rhodes, and very meanly on the programme today, I asked Jane to name the other two. It was quite... It's a little bit pointed. Would a bot do that? Liverpool Cathedral. That's so cruel. I think most people would actually be

hard pressed to name the more than he could at Halicarnassus the statue of Zeus at Olympia and the lighthouse at Alexandria

you're very welcome Bethany oh it's so lovely to be here that sentence makes it sound quite worthy it's a bit of a romp

I was just thinking that it's a beautiful sentence that's why I started with it because it's impactful. I'm delighted. And also because you use all the words, and I do love it when people use all the words. We did joke on the podcast last night when we were talking about the fact that you were our guest today, that we wouldn't have time to do all of the wonders of the world,

so we'd take one from the top and one from the bottom. Gorgeous. And in fact, due to time restrictions, that's exactly what we're going to do. Perfect. from the bottom. And in fact, due to time restrictions, that's exactly what we're going to do. Perfect. But for a start, I love your introduction to the book, because you do ask that immediate question that we really do need to ask now, which is, through whose prism are we deciding that these are the seven wonders of the world? Yeah, well, people have said to me, how did you choose your seven? And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, it's not my seven. There was an ancient list of the seven wonders of the ancient world that was inscribed on papyrus and incredibly

romantically exciting archaeologically. This fragment was discovered mummifying a body in central Egypt, and that was around 2200 years ago. So in the ancient world, they had this list of seven that they thought were basically the biggest and most impressive things that humans had ever made. And it was a size matters list. So they really are the biggest things that were around at the time and extraordinary and things that people visited. So it was like an ancient bucket list. So you were encouraged to go to these as an ancient tourist and be amazed and awed by the works of human hands but would it be fair to say that it would be obviously a completely different list if you were to say what are the uh seven asian ancient wonders of the

world or to look at it just through the prism of one religion one faith faith. Yeah, so this is a list that was drawn up probably in Alexandria, so in northern Egypt. And if you look at the wonders, they're kind of dotted around the Mediterranean. And there's the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, which may or may not have existed. It's the only one that we don't have really good, hard archaeological evidence for. So they were kind of from their world view. But to be honest, that's still quite a big world view, because you've got the continents of Asia, Europe and Africa covered. So it was what mattered to the people who were inhabiting that kind of extraordinary fluorescence of civilisation at the time. And the lists also started earlier. So

there are earlier lists from Babylon and other parts of Assyria and Nineveh, for instance, that describe these wonders of the world. So there's this kind of wonders of the world idea had been going probably for about 3,000 years, but it's just 2,200 years ago that somebody sits down and physically writes down this list in northern Egypt. So we're going to do the pyramids at Giza, and then we're going to talk about the lighthouse at Alexandria, if that's okay. I learnt so much, actually, from reading about both of those wonders

that I hadn't known before. So, you know, all hail to you for that. I didn't appreciate how important the sense of wonder is. And you note that actually the pyramids might have been built in the first place to reflect the sense of wonder caught in shafts of sunlight well that's right so if you ever go and stand on the deserts of giza or wake up on in the morning on a boat on the mediterranean you'll notice that the sunrise and the sunset often has like this inverted or proper

pyramid in the sky so So we think that's probably the shape that they were trying to replicate because basically the pyramid was a giant resurrection machine. That's what it was for. It was for the King Khufu and then the pharaohs, once they come to be called pharaohs, so they could be buried and they could ascend to the heavens and become part of the cosmos. So it was a massive kind of cosmic undertaking i mean undertaking it really matters to the ancient egyptians that this burial system works we think that might be one of the reasons it's this incredible shape because if you think about it you know it was close on 500 feet high it was built with 2.3 million limestone blocks it was

the heaviest building on earth it possibly It was the heaviest building on earth. It possibly is still the heaviest building that's ever been created. It's just astonishing, isn't it? It's astonishing. And this is 4,600 years ago, you know, and it's still standing. So the engineering skill, I mean, the thought, I often think that these sort of ancient planning committee rooms full of people going, how are we going to make it work?

And then there must be people who have gone, we're mad. This is, you know, people are going to laugh at us, you know, in the future because what are we thinking of? But it did work. It was extraordinary. It's still standing. And you can't not go to it and not be awed. Yeah. It is often the case, isn't it, that actually it's the detail from lesser men and women that really

informs us about these extraordinary things commissioned and created for very important men and women can you tell us a little bit about and i'm probably going to pronounce this wrong but mary mary yeah yeah yeah so i mean this is this is what i love about history and archaeology it's always changing it's always dynamic and as speak, being excavated in these cave complexes on the Red Sea, some of which are 100 feet deep, is this stash of papyri, the oldest inscribed papyri that we know of. And they describe in detail how the pyramid was built. And this is, I mean, I'm doing the mind-blowing kind of expression here

because it was mind-blowing for us as historians because we always said we know it's an amazing building but we how are we going to find out how it was built and this describes how merah and the 40 men underneath him they load the raw materials onto boats they they sail them up the nile they unload them at the pyramid and we now think it was actually the rise and fall of the river that helped to raise the blocks because the Nile was much closer to the pyramids. So for ancient Egyptians, they'd have seen it reflected in the waters of the Great River Nile. So Merau, we get all these details, we get the names of the people, now archaeological excavations are uncovering the kind of beads that they lost as they were building the pyramids.

Who were the builders? Which people built, did the works? So Egyptians. And there's always been this kind of, you know, story that it was an enslaved Jewish population. I would be amazed if there weren't some enslaved amongst those groups of women and men who built the pyramids. But as far as we know, from what we're discovering from these papyri, they were actually, they were Egyptians, some of whom had been drafted in, building it as a massive national project. Because for them, I mean, this is all very convenient for King Khufu,

the world wouldn't keep turning unless their glorious leader was reunited with the cosmos and the universe. So, you know, they think they're doing it to literally keep the world turning. But as far as we know, from the evidence we have, it wasn't built by a population of slaves, which is, I don't know, that's what I was told when I was growing up as a kid. You had all those sort of black and white images. Images, yeah, I can see them now.

I think it was really tough. There's no doubt about it. But if you look at... We're currently being excavated at their domestic quarters where they stayed, and they're sort of like dormitories, but it doesn't... It looks as though they had a life as they were building this extraordinary structure.

Fuey. Fuey, and competitive. Sorry, just to... They would sort of have rivalry as to who could build faster and you know so you get this sense that there was this they somehow somebody mirror and his chums managed to engender this sense that it was a joint project yes yeah the ultimate team building exercise what a corporate away day that was yeah let's talk about the lighthouse as well because that is a feat of engineering isn't it or it was it was so the was. So the lighthouse of Alexandria, you know, I think people have heard of the Colossus of Rhodes,

and that was about 108 feet high. The lighthouse was three times the size of the Colossus, a functioning lighthouse. So there were ramps that went up round the edge, and you'd have mules going up day in, day out, feeding this huge flame on top of the lighthouse. And it was there to kind of welcome knowledge in, as well as sailors, because Alexandria at the time was developed as this city where knowledge was power. And if you docked at Alexandria in a boat,

your docking tax was a roll of papyrus with knowledge written on it. So literally, like, wisdom was how you got into Alexandria. So it was both a very functional building, probably had a weather vane, it's probably the world's first weather vane, but it was also sort of signalling this idea that knowledge and wisdom and wit and will really mattered.

Would you have liked to live in that time in somewhere like Alexandria? Oh, no, I would not. Because people say, would you, you know, surely... because i live in history in my head the whole time so i've got the sort of bronze age you live in west london i know exactly where but my head my head is very definitely in the past um so the you know the the that's where i am but actually to go there we are so lucky to live where we do and where and when we do now and this world is far from perfect and there are people who are suffering appallingly but most people suffered appallingly

in ancient times so i wouldn't have liked to have lived there but but i would have loved to have sat around a dinner table and had a chat with those people who are dreaming up these huge ideas huge bonkers idea and then realizing them and this is a fantastic point made by Gary in Suffolk who's texted in to say, would the Egyptians have finished HS2? Exactly. And there is just something to absolutely marvel at, isn't there, in the completion of these projects?

There is. And the fact that they're not just buildings, because I think, you know, what I found writing this Seven Wonders book is that if you wonder at something, you're connected to it and you engage with it. And if you engage with something, you understand it. And if you understand something, you care about it. So it's a really, you know, it's a really important psychological exercise as well of giving humans wonder in the world. And we need wonder. You know, we still need to wonder at things. So these are extraordinary

historical buildings that served a lot of purposes the lighthouse had a reach of 37 miles didn't it when the the flame was actually lit and it was also a very early kind of mobile phone mast wasn't it in terms of communication well exactly so you'd they we think they'd sort of pump out like an early form of morse code to other sites uh along the north african coastline and which is a an amazing idea as well and i love there's a particular little sort of nugget that i love about the lighthouse that there was an ancient greek who wrote basically the first sci-fi novel and he describes an ancient greek astronaut who flies up to the moon. I mean, we're talking something that was written, you know, close on 2,000 years ago. And this astronaut looks down and he realises he is looking down on Earth

because he can see the Colossus of Rhodes, so one of the seven wonders, and the great lighthouse of Alexandria, one of the others. So that shows us how important these things were, not only to us, but how important they were to those women and men of antiquity and what were we doing in this country at that time well the pyramid stone henge it's around the same time as stone henge so we're we're we're raising stones not jane's quite rude about stone well i just to warn you it's not impressive, is it? How can I judge between monuments and cultures? I personally think the pyramids are a tiny bit more impressive than Stonehenge.

You know, shoot me down. But we're doing, you know, we who were living there then, we were doing what we could with our potential. We had our turnips, didn't we? Probably. No, actually, no, I do love Stonehenge. I think it's an incredible monument in and of itself, but we weren't quite at the pyramid building stage of engineering. And what would you say is the modern equivalent of one of these ancient wonders?

Can I just say, when it works, the NHS. I know that's a kind of crazy idea. It's not a single building, but it's an example of hyper collaboration and creating something that matters to a huge number of people so loads of people have said to me what's the eighth wonder of the world or what's the modern wonder and i'm you know what is it i'm i'm not sure i don't know if you can think on you know what is it i don't know but what the great thing you do is that you have not just retained your sense of wonder but you just never lose the enthusiasm for your subject and that's why you bring people along i mean you that's why you're such a good hit on telly no you can do it oh well i love it and the thing is the past is never worked

a day in your life have you really no i haven't i was talking to somebody this morning and i said oh i have to travel to history to understand it and they said yeah right on a boat around the eastern mediterranean who wouldn't say that but no I do love it because it's just full of extraordinary places and people and ideas you know so how could you not want to dive into that that sea of gorgeousness do you know what somebody once told me that if you really enjoy history you have a permanent friend with you and it's so true isn't it yeah totally you're never you're honestly you're you're never alone puts everything into perspective. And there's always somebody in history who's having a worse time than you.

So, you know, it makes you quite positive in your outlook too. Bettany Hughes. And do you know what? She was just such a fantastic guest, Jo, wasn't she? She came into the studio and just filled it with enthusiasm. That's what I really admire about communicators like Bettany, that they can take a subject and they can hurl it at the human race. And because they are so invested and so good at showing,

but not in an arsey way, their own knowledge of the subject, I'm just carried along with it. And, you know, I don't think all that frequently about ancient history. I'm not one of those weird blokes that constantly thinks about the Roman Empire, for instance, although. But there's just something about the way she puts it out there that I just think makes it absolutely gripping. No wonder she's been such a success on telly.

It's a really lovely book. It's got so much detail and really lovely human detail. I just couldn't recommend it enough. On the subject of books, we are reading for Book Club, Helen Thurston's An Elderly Lady is Up to No Good. And somebody did get in touch today

saying that it wasn't available in her local library and it was only on Kindle or hardback from Amazon. So, Rachel, I think we emailed you back. We did. Well, Eve did, to be fair. To say that you can get it for free at the moment, can't you? On an Audible WhatsApp. If you're a member of Audible,

and I think that costs, from memory, because I am, £8.99 a month, you get one so-called free book, i.e. that's what you pay the £8.99 for. And then, slightly oddly, and I didn't know this, that book is available free to audible members completely free just put it in your library top tip there and you can call in uh any book at your local library if you ask them to because it's you know it's published it's out there so you can ask

for that so i hope it's available to everybody we wouldn't want to choose something that was a bit prohibitive. No, that was never our intention. I think to buy, it is £9, which in fairness, you might pay for a paperback really these days. So that's the hardback is about nine quid. So there we go. Thank you very much. And thanks too to the people who've emailed about hearing aids. We'll get to those tomorrow because I think they're quite interesting hearing aids do need a little bit of practice from the sound of things no pun at all intended they do take a little bit of getting used to but it's worth it there we go you've made young Kate look quizzically into the middle distance there why why for what what pen was not intended from the sound of things I said I don were talking about hearing aids.

Yeah? Yeah. I don't think a bot would have picked you up on that. I don't think so. You know what we said yesterday about the young needing to be with older people in the workplace so they can learn? That was just a little example of it there. Right.

Okay. She's in charge of the edit. They've probably got a wide selection of clips that they keep. Stuff that we've said before the microphone's on. It does not bear thinking about. It doesn't, does it? I've got a bit of a chilly feeling at the back of my spine. I think you're very good, Kate.

I really do. Good night. Bye-bye. We're bringing the shutters down on another episode of the internationally acclaimed podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and V Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. But don't forget that you can get another two hours of us

every Monday to Thursday afternoon here on Times Radio. We start at 3pm and you can listen for free on your smart speaker. Just shout Play Times Radio at it. You can also get us on DAB Radio in the car

or on the Times Radio app whilst you're out and about being extremely busy. And you can follow all our tosh behind the mic and elsewhere on our Instagram account. Just go onto Insta and search for Jane and Fee and give us a follow. So in other words, we're everywhere, aren't we, Jane?

Everywhere. Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. I'm Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.