Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Feeling a little frisky in Tesco (with Robert Harris)

Episode Date: August 28, 2024

Jane ponders slathering herself in cat-attract spray (just to see what happens) and Fi struggles to say Kirstie Allsopp as she asks, when was the golden age of childhood?Also, Jane speaks to bestselling novelist, Robert Harris, on his new book 'Precipice'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Hannah Quinn Podcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Is it a dado rail? It's a dado rail. I don't know what's happened to your pronunciation since you went away. You had a real problem yesterday with tofu. It's about the most middle class comparison. Hi, I'm Adam Vaughan, Environment Editor for The Times. At the 2024 Times Earth Summit, our discussion on the essential steps for a net zero transition

will be set against a backdrop of the biggest election year in history. The governments voted in this year will face a crucial period for the sustainability agenda. This transition will be theirs to accelerate and all our futures will be affected by whether or not they do so. To book your ticket to this year's summit, head to timesurfsummit.com forward slash virtual. I did see on the ground yesterday, I'm getting a lot of cat stuff aimed at me at the moment. I genuinely don't know why, except maybe the phone is listening.

Well, it is, isn't it? It is. Let's just accept that. Also, you've got your new smart speaker. So I think every time in a smart speaker house, someone goes, Dora! Actually, it identifies the fact you've got a cat. Shit, I genuinely hadn't thought about that.

Is that why I'm now getting... So there was a thing pinged at me yesterday, a spray that apparently is incredibly attractive to cats and if you spray it all over your lap your cat comes bounding over gosh yeah can that work in other scenarios come in slathered in it and see what impact it has so i just keep on getting uh adverts uh to lose my belly fat oh god i'm I'm getting those. And one of them, Jane, is asking whether I want to lose 45 pounds. What? I mean, if I lost 45 pounds, I'd be really unwell.

I'm only tiny. Actually, that's positively alarming. Isn't it? Because clearly you shouldn't be getting that. 45 pounds would be ridiculous in most women. In you, it would be utterly ridiculous. Where is that coming from?

Because I am getting the belly fat thing too. Is it belly fat season at Instagram? What the hell is going on? Maybe when I walk past the smart speaker, it can just hear a bit more of a thud. It's decided now is the time. My smart speaker is hearing my belly wobble and thinking, that old tart needs help.

That sounds like 45 pounds. God. Okay, well, if anyone can enlighten us, or if you too are in losing belly fat Instagram hell, you know who you can talk to, Jane and Fi at times.radio. It seems to involve a lot of exercise. janeandfee at times.radio. It seems to involve a lot of exercise.

Well, and, you know, I think our thoughts about fasting are quite well documented. Oh, God, yeah, just don't do it. Have a good night's sleep and call it a fast. So we have been talking a lot on radio station and a lot of people in the normal world have been talking about social services, Kirsty Allstop, 15-year-old... All services. Kirsty Allsop, 15-year-old... Allsop.

Allsop, sorry. Going round Europe. And I wonder what your thoughts are. It's quite... I mean, my main thought is, I've always been a bit of a fan of Kirsty Allsop, but she does put herself and her thoughts out there, doesn't she? And sometimes you think that she doesn't need to

and she's slightly invited the criticism that she's had here which I don't think she should have had necessarily by the way but she has made the whole thing incredibly public and I quite enjoy what she says about property and about houses and affordability and all that so it's because I think she's got real skin in that game and real expertise. But I think once you set yourself up, potentially, as any kind of parenting guru... Yeah, there'll be another parent who's dick, aren't you? Yeah, but he does it a different way.

Yeah, so I genuinely, I really do like her, and I like her programmes as well, but I don't know why she's really brought this upon herself. And I think she has. There's no doubt about that, because she didn't need to make that public. But I think it's a really interesting question. I mean, if neither of my kids did that at 15,

there was an ill-advised trip to Zante at 17, which I think is a sort of rite of passage. That didn't go... I mean, it went well for them, but I don't think the parents enjoyed it very much. Didn't go well for the island. Certainly didn't go well for the island. No, I don't know what that little Greek island has done to deserve all this. I really don't. But it's an interesting one. If a child of 15 of yours had asked to do that, what would you have said? Well, I would have said no. Yeah.

But then I've had to check in with myself a bit because I was travelling myself on my own. Well, that's right. I was thinking about you in that context, yeah. At a much younger age. But it was different because we weren't travelling travelling. We were travelling alone to go and see another parent, but at a much younger age, actually. And so I did have to kind of pull another parent, but at a much younger age, actually. And so I did have to,

I had to kind of pull myself back, actually, from a knee-jerk condemnation. And I mean, I think the problem that I have with the whole story is, like you, I really like Kirstie Allsopp. And I think that also she does speak truth sometimes. I think sometimes she'll say things that all of us were slightly kind of grasping at and she says it and you go oh okay yep I totally understand that and and I believe her to be a fantastic mum I think the way that she talks about her kids is often uh you know really really lovely but I just don't really understand the bit about being so outraged that social services did call because I think actually you could have the reaction if you received that phone call where you go okay um I'm sorry that you're having to

make this call let's make this as easy as possible because I genuinely believe these are you know the reasons why I thought it was absolutely okay yeah no harm has come to my child you know can we come in and just discuss it as a family and absolutely don't want you to take up too much of your time because there isn't anything to see here, which I just think would have been slightly more helpful because people have just gone off on one now about who's the kind of deserving victim of social services, the undeserving victim of social services. That makes their job more complicated. Well, it does. And we both know, and I think we've both got sympathy for social workers, that makes their job more complicated, Jane. Well, it does, and we both know,

and I think we've both got sympathy for social workers, haven't we? Hugely. Somebody had to make that call, probably thinking, oh, God, what is this? Do I want to do this? Yeah, exactly. But there's no point pretending that neglect and cruelty only occur in certain sorts of homes, because if only that were true. Yep, and there have been, you know,

there have been some recent cases in the press of incredibly well-funded, privileged people doing really, really terrible things. So, yeah, I think the whole thing is just... Yeah, it's that... It's really difficult, but I would also love to hear from our listeners because I think the conversation about independence for children

is just hugely important at the moment because it really is only by doing those small steps of independence that you're ever going to have the courage to do the big steps. And we know what's happened with phones and tracking and all of that. You can take away your kids' right of passage, which is to go and have a bit of a wobble somewhere whilst they're still safe under your guidance which just is going to help them when they're just out there on their own yes i i think um it's a question of what age is wobbling appropriate

and in what circumstances and with whom with whom and who's going to pick up the pieces if the wobble is a proper, proper wobble? Yeah. And of course there are 16-year-olds and there are 16-year-olds. Some of them are eminently capable, I'm sure, of trekking around much of, let's face it, fairly safe mainstream European cities. How old were you when you went to Brussels? Well, I was 19.

I should say I went with seven or eight friends. It was not a solo trip. And I also went a little further. I did go to Amsterdam before I came back. That was my interrailing of choice. Just the three major European capitals, Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, back to Liverpool. Sounds like a bit of a drug route. I'll bring in my diary of that trip. a bit of a drug route. I'll bring in my diary if that's true. It's not a drug route. But you see, it's interesting because it takes me back to a conversation

we've had about the guides and those phenomenal people who help out with things like the scouts and the beavers and the guides and all the rest of it. Because that was where I did my, what you might call genuine adventuring. We went camping with the guides.

And so I sort of got that out in a funny way i'd kind of not wobbling exactly but we did do a little bit of of genuine adventuring and living living in a tent for a week with stabilizers on with stabilizers yeah with a degree of supervision and um yeah but it's i i would not i think once you throw yourself out there and throw your children out there up to a point and say look this is what we've done what's wrong with it then you are going to have people saying well actually i do take issue with what you've done and i wouldn't have done that and then you also have a good head shoal of people coming out this week saying when i was seven i went to Torquay completely unaccompanied

I had a whelk and I came home and what's wrong with it that's what people should be doing I'm sorry but that it's a different world it is a different world but also terrible things happened to kids that terrible things have always happened don't know about exactly so you know there was no halcyon time of child safety. That's just never happened. I wish people said that more. When was the golden age of childhood? I mean, because it wasn't that long ago. They were going up chimneys on a shift. Yeah. So please, let's keep a sense of proportion here. Yeah. We'd love your thoughts though, Jane and Fi at times.radio. And actually, it'd be great to get Kirsty...

Oh, I just can't say her name. Christy Allstop. Hannah, could you please book Christy Allstop for me? She should be available. Let's get Kirsty Allstop on as a guest because it would be good to talk about lots and lots of things. And I tell you what, there is nothing that woman can't do with a side return.

No. What is the actual genuine definition of a side return? Because I've never really known. Well, it's the bit to the side of a terraced house. The snicket. Where you'd be able to get through. So it's the bit that you can go out and return back through. And then in the modern times,

you put a kind of conservatory effect over it don't you or you knock down the external wall with a massive rsj am i getting to you yet well it's yes things are building i'll say i'll say literally uh i'll say that uh okay um now yesterday shoplifting was in the news and we talked about it on the Times Radio show, 2 till 4, Monday to Thursday. Which, by the way, I really enjoyed getting back to work yesterday. It was nice. It was really good fun. And I have to confess, I was absolutely dreading coming in.

I was doing proper, proper slow walking. I just didn't want to come to work. I had such a nice week off. Yeah, I know what you mean but it's funny there's something about the rhythm of work it's how I know retirement is not an option for me at the moment I like the rhythm of work

and the contrast between work and not working I'm not ready for it I'm not ready for a life of not working because then you wouldn't have the contrast well there is that yeah there is that but i don't think i'm quite such a reluctant traveler towards the destination of retirement okay um make of that what you will um so shoplifting was something that was in the news yesterday uh because yvette cooper the home secretary has said you know she's

fed up with it not being taken seriously. Something needs to change. And Fee told, I think, a very interesting story about the kind of physical effect that you went through when you witnessed an act of shoplifting. I was livid. Yeah, and I get that because I haven't seen anything of that nature lately. And so I can understand that it did, it made you feel,

well, explain exactly what it made you feel. Well, I was in Marks and Spencer's on my way home. Yep. understand that it did it made you feel well explain exactly what it made you feel well i was in marks and spencers on my way home yep uh and the woman at the till next to me as it turned out had quite a few packs of security tagged steak which she decided not to pay for and i believe her to have done that deliberately she was a woman of the same age as me she looked a bit like me wearing the same clothes as me and and by telling you that, I'm saying that I thought she could probably afford to pay for it. And she had decided not to. And the security alarm went off when she was leaving. And the guy, security guard said, you know, I need to check your

bag. And she literally put her hand in his face, said, I'm too busy, and just started walking off at speed. And he started following her and she started running a bit, so she obviously knew what she had done. And then I caught up with her further down the road and she recognised me from the store and she kind of smiled at me in a kind of, I've got away with it way. And I was fuming, Jane.

I was fuming because my exact thought process went, I'm on my way back from work. I've put in the shift in order to come here. To pay for my meat. To pay for my stuff. Yeah, exactly. Yes. God, it's that, isn't it?

It is that. It is that. And also I really felt for the security guard because I think that they must have some kind of policy and I entirely agree with this. The shop's on quite a main road where actually you don't start running down the street after somebody just in case it escalates or whatever.

So, you know, he might have got into trouble for not quite managing to have done his job, but it was the nonchalance, it was the sheer chutzpah and nonchalance that just absolutely flabbergasted me. It is really infuriating. It makes me feel very tense and kind of inadequate because I couldn't have done anything either and wouldn't have done anything.

But like you, I would have felt extraordinary, just disdain for the fact that somebody can believe that they have the right to act in that way. Yeah. When the person in the shop is putting in a shift in the shop, you'd been to work, so you could go there to buy some food. Yeah, and also, I mean, let's be realistic about this. She wasn't nicking stuff.

No. Because she needed... It wasn't nappies for a child. No, or milk, you know, powdered milk. No, it's not that. Or the biggest box of chicken wings you can find for a fiver. It was really expensive steak, so... Anyway, that conversation on the radio has prompted this email from Anonymous, who says, I didn't know whether to send it,

but I have decided to in the hope that it might help just one listener feel a bit less alone. I'm guilty of shoplifting on multiple occasions, and I'm not proud of it, and I don't do it in a threatening manner for personal gain or as any kind of act of rebellion but because I have impulse control issues. About five years ago I was diagnosed with kleptomania which is a mental health disorder which is defined as a recurrent urge to steal typically without regard for need or profit.

In my case the condition is linked to anorexia, which I've suffered from for over 20 years. I never leave the house with the plan to steal, it just happens on impulse. The stolen items would usually be donated or gifted. I don't ever keep what I've stolen, as it's not something I'm proud of, quite the opposite. I feel shame, guilt and self-loathing. I am in no way excusing my actions but i did want to share my experience as there may be others who are feeling the same shame as i do and um what can we say beyond thank you for your incredible honesty and i'm i'm sorry that you've suffered in this way yeah and it's not something i know anything about so i mean i've learned a

thing or two just from reading that yep and i suppose we just have to draw quite a strong line don't we between somebody who's doing something that they have no control over and someone who's making a choice to do something yeah so in in the moment you're not going to know as a bystander on which side of the line the person is. It is, no. So it is illuminating to hear that. But I think the statistics are just astonishing about shoplifting at the moment, aren't they? And they do tell us something just about how people feel so under pressure financially

that they believe that's their only option, but also about a slight fading away of the very firm kind of recognition of what the rules are yeah well quite a lot of people put um put that down to the pandemic don't they i've always found that a bit hard to understand but yeah it seems like you're right that some of of the fabric of our society... Oh, gosh, Jane. It was unwoven. Oh, my word. OK. And I speak as somebody who's going to have to take up some trousers this week.

Take up some trousers? Yeah, it's so unusual for me to find that the trousers are... Why? Have you shrunk? No, but the trousers are far, far too lovely. And how good are you at hemming? Very, very bad. Really? So let's see if you can spot the trousers.

OK. good are you at hemming very very bad really let's see if you can spot the trousers okay have you have you never thought to buy the fantastic double-sided interface that you iron on yeah i've got that but i've i've never been able to use that properly either i probably i mean we've got a fantastic local uh dry cleaner and we call him mr mender it's so imaginative in our house and he basically he makes most of his profits off my household because we forever need things arms shortening um trouser lengths shortening um yeah he um he's great but it is quite pricey sometimes i end up paying more for the mending than i've done for the the object in the first place oh but i think you should keep spending that money do you yep i think that's good money it's a good service and I don't want him to close down.

It's keeping somebody in business. Are you all right? He's doing a better job than you. Yeah, you're quite right. Yeah. Don't paint your own walls. That's somebody else's job you're taking. No, I wouldn't.

No, because you don't want to be able to paint halfway up. It'd be like a dado rail. Is it a dado rail? It's a dado rail. I don't know what's happened to your pronunciation since you went away. You had a real problem yesterday with tofu. It's about the most middle class. I think you've become working class on holiday.

I don't know who you've been mixing with. I've never been able to call it tofu. It's tofu. It's awful. Right, this one comes in from Sally. And her ending is, keep up the good work, see you on the other side. Oh, heck, blimey.

Oh, Sally. Right. Long-time listener, first-time emailer, very, very welcome. Just hoping this email is good enough for either a mention or a tote bag. It would be beyond my wildest dreams to believe I could achieve both.

Where are we on the totes gosh I don't think we've given away a tote this week and it's already Wednesday gosh so I think things are looking up I think they are particular correspondent so Sally has just returned from holiday like many families we prefer the villa Airbnb self-catering holiday to give us the freedom to eat at home with foods we wouldn't normally buy and cook uh hypocrisy abounds as we're kosher at home but not on holiday fascinating sentence quite like to hear more about that we've discovered that as a result we have what might be an odd holiday memorabilia collection and wondered if anybody else does this or something equally as peculiar we always buy a bag for life in the local supermarket

and bring it home our newest edition is from pingo dot che the supermarket of madeira i tell you what so they have their own supermarket chain yes pingo dot che uh it's and it's probably pronounced completely different yeah well with your record on pronunciation at the moment yeah so lord knows let's call it Pingo Doche. It's an addition to pennies from the USA, car for from Spain. I always think that's France. And commerçants au truman in France and massy in Barbados, etc, etc. I know it's weird, but it's quite nice to stand in Tesco

and think about the lovely holidays we had with the bag and how far it's come with us. Do any of your listeners have odd memorabilia of holidays rather than the usual fridge magnet or am i officially weird and sally says she's back in heels today for work after two weeks in my sliders what do we call them before sliders and why do our kids change the name of clothing we've had for years and sally is feeling the pain i'll just wear the sliders to work actually sally and see what people say Cockapoo loves carrots, cucumber and easter

like banana but has gone off them Carrot is also good for fibre and roughage to ensure we don't have trouble with her anal glands in brackets TMI question mark close brackets Sally yes I think we're going to put you in the tote pile though because obviously what you need to be

doing is standing proud in Tesco with a Jane and Fee bag yes oh yeah of course that is the answer I think that's a very nice idea to bring back a bag for life from a it is an international supermarket I think that's uh that's very very cosmopolitan and chic I always feel a little frisky when I'm in Tesco with a Sainsbury's bag for life I know what you mean and I do that occasionally I just think ha ha I think you've got me yeah you haven't and also I feel very embarrassed when I go to Lidl with a Sainsbury's bag for life. I know what you mean. And I do that occasionally. I just think, ha-ha, think you've got me? You haven't. And also I feel very embarrassed

when I go to Lidl with a Waitrose bag. Yeah. Because people look at me and think, fallen on hard times. Yes. Page 13 of the Daily Mail. But for and after. Right.

Fiona says, just to say that after giving birth to two children with all the things that involves fiona i don't want to know uh in front of my very supportive husband i have no embarrassment about carrying out any other bodily functions in front of him this is after plop gate which featured in the podcast yesterday however i'm not sure it's the same the other way round. What are your thoughts about that? Yes, because I suppose, I mean, neither you nor I can put ourselves in the shoes of someone who's witnessed a birth. Have you ever seen a birth? No. You've given birth, but you've not

seen it. I have not seen a birth. So, but lots and lots of men do see births. And I wonder whether they do feel that they, yeah, that the wife has lost all embarrassment if you have a really good, strong, supportive relationship, but the man might not feel the same.

Interesting. I don't know, you've opened up what I'm not going to call a can of worms there, Fiona, but you've opened something up. Let's see if anyone responds to that. I got a great text today from my daughter, she goes on to say, after I suggested I cook supper for her and her new vegan boyfriend. My daughter just wrote, I just feel like your cooking isn't that nice.

And that, in a sentence, is why it's worth having kiddies. Jenny and Bean describe themselves as loyal listeners and they've sent what for me and I hope for Jane as well is the photograph of the week. I too inherited a fish kettle from my mother which until this light bulb moment has sat amongst the spiders in the back of a cupboard. I know your listeners won't be able to see this picture but it is the result of a very hot summer several years ago when my sausage dog required a much-needed cool-down. Bingo. Not used since for either fish or banger.

And that is a picture of a fantastic little dog and he is having a very nice cool-down in a water-filled fish kettle in the garden. Can I just see the image again? It is really life enhancing that thank you very much so that's a little bean thank you and what a superb idea so uses for fish kettles continues cooling down a sausage dog that's number one so far it is you know very few people have ever used their fish kettles hence they're having to ask their

mothers and grandmothers for tips on it. We've got a fantastic guest today, haven't we? Well, we have. It's Robert Harris, uber-successful novelist. And he has a real knack for just finding historical, I was going to say niches, but little bits of history that most of us knew nothing about. But he's written about the Civil War. Was that his most recent novel? I think it was, wasn't it?

Yes, I think it was. It was last year's or the year before because he's prolific. Was that the one that we interviewed him about? I don't know. There's a lot going on, if only that were true. This new one is called Precipice and it is about a figure who actually, not that long ago was prime minister he

was the last liberal prime minister of Great Britain so uh Asquith Herbert Herbert Henry Asquith um and he was prime minister at the start of the first world war and Precipice is about an affair he was having or was he he? With a young socialite. Well, as you said yesterday, incredibly, it was a younger woman. I find it almost impossible to stretch my imagination that far, Jane, but I'm going to give it a go. We both give a lot of airtime to a leading statesman, I am going to say that,

who gave everything to a passionate affair with a much older woman. So let's say the statesman's 65 and he's having a mad, mad affair with a much older woman. So let's say the statesman's 65 and he's having a mad, mad affair with a woman of 86. Bring it on. Bring it on, yeah. Very much so. But strangely, that wasn't what was happening with Asquith. And the most important thing to remember about Robert Harris

is that he's the husband of Jill Hornby. That's right. Now, this is my final email. It comes from Martin Groucho-oucho horseman who describes himself as editor cook gardener and gentleman martin you're ever so welcome couldn't be more welcome ever so welcome on this podcast whilst half listening to your wonderful podcast terrific well because men can do a lot of things at the same time i always forget that there have been a lot of one-handed pram pushers in the park this week i've've noticed. What are they doing with the other hand? Well, they just, men only ever push a pram with one hand.

They really, I mean, it's a thing. Definitely is a thing. Okay. I hadn't mentioned that. I have seen in our neck of the woods so many really frazzled grandparents. Oh, God, yes. Yeah, because it's, you know. It's almost the start of the next term.

Yeah, and you've had your summer holidays and everybody's been away and, you know, most couples both have to work. And there are some grandparents who are really steadying themselves against buggies whilst thinking, when does this week end? Anyway, back to Martin Groucho-Horsman, editor, cook, gardener and gentleman. Whilst half listening to your wonderful podcast,

I heard you mention the gardener and gentleman. Whilst half listening to your wonderful podcast, I heard you mention the venerable bead. I tell you what, we're very erudite out here. Well, no one can say that we don't have variety, that's for sure. It reminded me of a visit to the delightful North East. I planned a visit to Bead World in Jarrow. I told my wife and sister and they were inordinately excited about the visit. When we arrived, they were inordinately excited about the visit.

When we arrived, they were both very disappointed, though. There were no colourful glass, wood and plastic baubles, not a bead in sight. It was still a very interesting visit where we learnt about early Christianity and met a couple of hairy pigs we called sheep pigs. Well, Martin, thank you very much for that. That's just lovely. Yeah, that is lovely lovely and to the many

people who've come to our aid um on the subject of smelly food caddies the overwhelming advice and i hadn't thought of this i don't know if you had is you freeze the food waste before you put it outside but you have to have a i mean thank you to everybody tracy in Toronto. Oh, no, she says, great to have you both back. That's very nice of you, Tracy. Thank you. Just a quickie, re-smelly food bins and bags. My eldest daughter just moved back from Toronto, where it's very warm in the summer,

told me they kept their food waste bag in the freezer. No smell. You just lift it out and put it in the curbside caddy on the morning of collection. There you go that's one way to do it thank you tracy and thank you to your daughter as well well it is and i'd never heard that before so thank you for the top tip but i've got a horrible feeling that i'd forget and my freezer would just build up with bags of food waste and then the kids would think oh

this is uh oh well yes exactly that's what would happen in our house. Just put it in the microwave. Off we go. So I don't know whether that would be a good idea. The world is getting more dangerous and understanding how helps. I'm Alex Dibble and I present The Times' World in 10 podcast where we hear from military specialists and our renowned foreign correspondents. The most likely cause of a world war in the next 10 years. This isn't something you want to get mixed up. President Putin will sow discord in the alliance. The World in Ten is every day and just for 10 minutes. Do join us. Let's bring in Robert Harris, one of our pre-eminent novelists. If you haven't

enjoyed his books, then honestly, you really are missing out. He has written in the past about ancient Rome, about the Second World War, and indeed about the English Civil War. And his book about a papal election, Conclave, has been made into a film which is coming out in late November. Now his latest novel is Precipice. It's set in 1914 and it centres on the relationship between Asquith, Britain's last Liberal Prime Minister, and a young woman called Venetia Stanley. Now Asquith is a character who's more or less disappeared from the national consciousness so I started by asking Robert Harris who was Asquith? Well, he was born in 1852, so he was absolutely Victorian. His father died when he was quite young

and his mother sent him to London to go to good schools. He got into Oxford and won all the prizes there. He became a lawyer and then he entered politics, a Liberal MP, and he became very quickly Home Secretary. He was a great favourite of Gladstone's. So it's important to remember he is a Victorian. His first wife died and left him with five young children he had to bring up. And not long after that, he met and married Margot Tennant,

the daughter of one of the richest or the richest man in scotland and she moved in smart society and had a lot of money and uh he became when the liberals won power became chancellor of the exchequer and then took over as prime minister um so uh and he was um a brilliant judge-like figure i I mean, you know, he presided over the government with unquestioned authority, dispatched business very quickly. He was fond of a drink and was known as Squiffy. But the leader of the Tories, Bonalor, said, Asquith, drunk is better than any of our men sober.

And at the beginning of the book, it's 1914, it's summer, and high society is in full swing. And Asquith is the Prime Minister. He's having some issues with Ireland, not particularly unusual. And he's conducting what we believe to be a full on physical affair with this woman, Venetia Stanley, who is in her 20s. He is into his 60s by then. A lot of people believe it wasn't a physical affair or perhaps they want to believe it wasn't. What do you say about that? Well, it's been generally accepted it wasn't a physical affair,

but I don't think that that's true. I think that there's been a bit of reputation management, it seems to me, on that. As I say, he was quite notorious as being unsafe in the back of taxes and she had lots of affairs with married men later in her life. So we are being asked to believe that the one woman he never leapt on in the back of the car was the one he wrote 560 letters to, sometimes three times a day.

There's also their main... Where they met privately together, because it was quite hard to do it, was they would go for drives together. He had a chauffeur, he had this big car, and they'd go off for an hour and a half or two hours every week, sometimes more than once a week, and drive to Henley-on-Thames or Goring or somewhere like that. And as I came to write the scene in the book

where he picks her up for the first time, I thought, I'd better know what this car was like, because we know it was a 1908 Napier. Doesn't mean a thing to me, I'm afraid. No, nor did it to me, but I looked it up, and heavens above, there was a fixed glass screen between the passengers and the chauffeur. There was a curtain you could draw across this screen. There were blinds on all the windows,

and you didn't even need to speak to the driver because you communicated by a push-button console. So I suddenly thought, well, these drives take on a kind of different complexion. I don't think, I'm not blowing my own trumpet, but I don't think anyone had connected that before. I was really entertained by this and I was certainly educated, but I was also made quite angry, if I'm honest, because here was a man who drank copious amounts of alcohol,

it would seem, hence the nickname Squiffy. He lived an incredible... I mean, he may have started off relatively middle class, but he was certainly living, thanks partly to his aristocratic wife, an extraordinarily, well, privileged lifestyle. And he was writing, I mean, you said the number of letters, 300,000 words, you estimate, to Venetia Stanley. That was just her.

Whilst also coping with an international crisis. But he would spend cabinet meetings writing love letters. Now, there were real life consequences for millions of people all over the world. Am I supposed to be impressed by the fact that he was writing love letters during cabinet meetings? Or should I be outraged? No, I will. I think, I mean, I just wrote what happened and let the reader make their own judgment. I think it is quite shocking. There's one particular meeting in January 1915 where they're trying to decide what to do in the war because there's stalemate on the Western Front. So this was a really crucial meeting, went on for a long time. And there's a letter from Asquith to Venetia Stanley

that begins, 3.30, my darling your sweet letter has just arrived I'm in a war council meeting look I can pick you up from Cynthia's on Tuesday at 4 o'clock then there's a sort of bracket oh I see I've got the wrong day, it's the following

Tuesday. And on it goes. And then he says, then it's 4pm, Winston talking. Most interesting. I'll tell you all about it when I see you. And you realise that in this meeting, where this was to turn into a fiasco that cost 32,000 British lives, he wasn't paying full attention. And it was his job to be much more forensic and

questioning of Churchill about this scheme. As much as anything, this book is a brilliant tribute to the Postal Service. By God, this isn't really a pun, but it properly delivered back in the day, didn't it? It did. Twelve deliveries a day in London. I mean, his letter writing schedule was, well, first of all, he'd wake up in Downing Street and expect to find a letter from Venetia on his bedside table. Then, late in the morning, just before lunch, he'd write to her and describe what had happened during cabinet meeting. Late afternoon, early evening, he might wander over to the Athenaeum,

have a whisky and soda and write another letter. And then finally, at midnight, when he got into bed, he'd write a pencilled letter to her. So, I mean, it was a phenomenal output. And they could talk rather as we would talk on WhatsApp or by internet. There's a real intimacy. And we know this because the letters that he sent her are in your book and they are real.

Every word is written by him. There's about 5,000 or 6,000 words of his. I mean, he was a very, one has to say, very good letter writer. And they are extraordinarily passionate. You know, my darling, my dearest darling. One of them ends, have I told you how much I love you? No, just multiply the stars by the sands. I mean, this is quite bizarre, really. I love you. No, just multiply the stars by the sands.

I mean, this is quite, I mean, bizarre, really. Yes, I mean, and all that with Winston Churchill in the room at the time and Kitchener at times as well. And this is what I mean about these names that are lost to history. Kitchener, I knew him from the posters, but didn't know much else about him. Churchill is the name obviously everyone knows. And this version of Churchill in the First World War,

he comes across, he's bellicose, he cannot stop talking, he makes these incredibly long-winded, uber-pompous speeches, he's war-mad. Was that him? Yes, it's all completely accurate. It's drawn from his own letters or from Asquith's description of what he was saying. I mean, I read a letter from him the other day,

written around this time, and he said, you know, my problem is I either sit completely silent or nobody else can speak. And that's how he was. There's a great moment in the book, which is true, when leading a madcap venture to save Antwerp from the advancing Germans he sends a message to Asquith saying with your permission I'd like to resign a first lord of the admiralty and take a command a military command in the field and Kitchener

wrote on this telegram I can make him lieutenant general if you wish. And Asquith read this out in cabinet, and the roars of laughter, he described it as Homeric laughter, greeted this suggestion. So he was both brilliant and a comical figure, really. We should say that although the letters that Asquith wrote to Venetia are real, because he was careful to destroy the letters she sent to him, you've imagined those. Well, this was what made one of the things that made me want to destroy the letters she sent to him. Yes. You've imagined those. Well, this was one of the things that made me want to write the book because, yes, historians have seen this as a kind of crazy obsession and therefore it became easier to suggest

it might be some sort of platonic fixation. The moment you start, and what I did was write her replies, the moment you start to do that, the thing becomes more balanced and you can deduce from his letters what she might have written to him. And for instance, when they were separated for a long time, she copied out Shakespeare's 44th sonnet and sent it to him. That's quite an erotic sonnet. It's all about if only our bodies,

if only our thoughts were bodies, we'd be together and so on. Immediately, you have to start adjusting your perspective about this relationship. But you do suggest that by the end, certainly of the novel, she's feeling pretty much pity for him. Yes. I mean, as the war became more and more stressful, he became more and more dependent on her. And to begin with, she thought it was her patriotic duty to sort of buck up the leader of the country.

But by Christmas 1914, she was clearly getting... He was sending her all this secret information, for one thing, which I think she was probably very nervous about having in her possession, top secret documents. And she set off to try and distance herself from him, first by becoming a nurse and then finally by marrying someone else. And he went to pieces when this happened. He became very needy and, as we all know,

there are few things less attractive than when someone is incredibly needy. And as we all know, there are few things less attractive than when someone is incredibly needy. And the First World War went on and on and on. In the end, there was a coalition government, wasn't there? Yes. She broke the affair with him. She announced on the kind of Tuesday or Wednesday that she was marrying someone who was one of his closest associates, friends.

And as luck would have it, by the Friday, the government was in terrible trouble because Admiral Fisher, the first sea lord, resigned over the Dardanelles fiasco and a new story about a shortage of ammunition broke in the Times. And over the weekend, he started to panic, and on the Monday, so less than a week after she broke off with him, he agreed to a coalition with the Tories,

and there was never a Liberal government again. And one of the things that I did put in the novel, which has been missed by all historians, of Asquith at least, was a letter he wrote to her on the morning that he agreed to this coalition saying, in effect, I wasn't speaking to you. I've never felt more wretched and alone. I've taken this decision and I don't know what you would have advised me to do. So, you know, she was a consequential figure. Yeah, I mean, let's try and reassure ourselves it couldn't happen now with a British prime minister, could it, Robert?

No, having an affair, no, it's impossible. I do think that one of the reasons that Asquith was able to do this was because nobody knew, hardly anyone knew what he looked like. He could walk around the streets of London and he didn't have a detective with him. He caught the train up to spend a long weekend in October 1914 and he travelled just without anyone, without a secretary even. I mean, tapping, you know, with his... just completely solitary.

That wouldn't be possible now. Does it actually matter how a prime minister conducts his or her private life? No, unless it interferes with their job. And I think that in this case, as you said earlier, that it plainly did. I mean, the amount of time that he was spending on this, the distraction from his other work, you know, it interfered with his discharge of his duties. I think there's no doubt about that. And are we just being a bit pompous judging him, do you think? Or is it actually entirely reasonable?

I mean, I was just thinking earlier about my grandfather who fought at the Somme, my great-grandfather who drowned on the Lusitania. You know, these things happen to real, ordinary people with absolutely no way of influencing the decisions taken about their lives. Oh, no, I completely agree with you. They were a completely sequestered, ruling elite,

cut off from the consequences of their action. They had no idea what they were getting into with the First World War. One of the scenes that I found most interesting to write is where Asquith, after he's pretty well declared war on Germany, says to Kitchener, who he wants to make Secretary of State for war, how long do you think

it will last? Everyone tells me it'll be over by Christmas. And Kitchener says, oh, it will go on until 1917. And at least, and Asquith said, why? He said, and Kitchener said, we all need to raise an army of two million men. That will take us at least three years.

So I can't see this ending before 1917. This was the conversation had when it was too late to stop it. They didn't know what they were doing. I mean, the only way that one could... One does have some slight sympathy with people. The events have slipped beyond their control. And Kitchener said 600,000 men died in the... Soldiers died in the American Civil War.

There were going to be millions more die in this. Who has been the best Prime Minister of the last 30 years? Oh, that's quite a difficult question to answer. I mean, some of them had better strengths than others. I mean, Thatcher was obviously a very important prime minister and so was Blair. I think Major was underrated, actually. I've come to think that, having not thought much of him at the time.

But I think he was, you know, he was pretty impressive in its way. Distracted by an affair, of course. He was. Yes, that's true. I don't think I'd like to write a novel about that one particularly. I don't think I want to read it either, Robert. I think that's, yes, we'll walk away from that one. That was Robert Harris and his book Precipice is out. I think it's

officially out tomorrow. I have ordered my dad a copy for his birthday because he likes a bit of Robert Harris like what I do. I was surprised for you genuinely by how irritated I was by the detail in that book about the Prime Minister writing love letters during Cabinet meetings. I mean, there's something about that that is so extraordinarily entitled. Yep. Considering the weight of the responsibility of that office and considering that they were talking about the First World War, unbelievable that he had time to scribble some amorous notes to his paramour just extraordinary well there is a recurring theme as well isn't there about the activities of prime ministers

and presidents whilst we think that they're doing the job, they're not doing the job. No, well, because... They're doing somebody else. Back then, in 1914, yeah, I mean, the public had absolutely no idea what their betters were getting up to. Yep. Absolutely. Thank goodness for a free press. Right.

OK. Thank you for listening. Thanks to Robert Harris. And can I just say thank you to all of the people who have explained the yellow car game to me? Well, I thought it was going to be more complicated than it's turned out to be. Oh, no, it's not complicated.

It's not, is it? No, it really isn't. But it can be very satisfying if you have a very long road trip ahead. Excellent. So what you don't know is that Jane and I have done very well in this podcast because when I came in this morning she landed the most extraordinary insults i mean it was really

the rest of the team was just like oh gosh how are they gonna come back from that question is where i don't know how we can how do children get their brains equally from both parents? I think most fathers would... What would they say? I'm enjoying this. I'm enjoying this one. Anyway. Actually, on that note, it's not quite connected.

My sister has... She's often discussing this, but I sent off one of those DNA kits. What? In the hope that she's actually discussed this, but I sent off one of those DNA kits. What, in the hope that she's actually more related to me than you? She's desperate not to be related to me. That's brilliant. So we await developments. But actually, my question is, and the answer to this must be,

that she and I would have exactly the same DNA, wouldn't we? We would. So I don't need to bother with the expense of the kit because i can just use her information well you that her dna would show she's connected to you as long as you share one parent but wouldn't her dna be different to yours if you don't share two parents difficult times ahead for the Garvey family. Stay tuned. Okie dokie. Jane and Fee at Timestock Radio.

We hope you've got plenty to go on there and we look forward to hearing from you. All the best. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.