Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Feeling limitless just north of Hatfield

Episode Date: January 8, 2026

Jane and Fi’s career delusions continue today as they ponder why they’ve never been offered a professional cricket commentary career. They also chat embracing 2026, socks over shoes, being a centrist granny, and moving to Dubai. Please also heed an accent warning! Plus, former prisoner turned writer and actor Ric Renton discusses working on the new BBC prison drama Waiting for the Out. Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.You can listen to our 'I'm in the cupboard on Christmas' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1awQioX5y4fxhTAK8ZPhwQIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hunters song in my head. Oh, what's it called? I just can't get on my head. It's just, it's terrible. It's been on repeat for about the last 48 hours. Oh, God, what can you do to get rid of it? Well, I've tried everything. I tried it.

I even tried our own playlist this morning. So I think with an earworm, if living off a prayer can't knock it out of your head than nothing can. Leave it and breathe. With the awa, a what, a what, at the beginning. Anyway, the more I talk about it, the worse it makes it.

And breathe. Thursday. Now, we are waiting for Storm Goretti, which it doesn't, I mean, I've come in in sort of heavy-duty clothing again. Nothing's happened. Well, I wouldn't tempt fake by saying. No, okay. I think the problem with storms these days

as they roll in very, very quickly. Well, let's see. There's no couple of days of drizzle turning into rain, turning into something else, and blowing through them. It's the international sound of a storm. Really convincing.

But you've got terrible shoes on for a storm. What are you wearing those for? Very good Clark's boots, these. Well, I mean, they may be great Clark's boots, but they're completely unsuitable. I mean, those aren't going to protect you from any kind of a rain. They've got a slippy soul. No, they haven't actually. They're good grippers.

Honestly, they're good grippers. Oh, actually, okay. Yeah, they're fine. They've been excellent today. I won't hear a word against clerks. Right, I have just come from the house that is forever broadcasting because I'm doing a charity appeal. And I'm allowed to say this, I think. Do accidentally mention that. Charity. Yes, no, do. Oh, no, please do. It's a very good campaign. It's called Warm Welcome,

and you can hear all about it on the 25th of January. please give generously but do you know where they put me to do it in the old woman's house studio oh no they did triggering triggering triggering triggering it was the place where the stupid hob never heated up um did it still have uh jane jenny's bakelight headphones plugged in and the small lamp do you know for you i looked for them and they've gone i'm sure they have well they'll be in a museum by now right they

which you know what we had some lovely messages uh when you were back on Monday for the afternoon show 2 till 4 live here on Times Radio saying it's it's lovely to you both back together all that kind of stuff all that kind of stuff and we were motoring through the afternoon very nicely and I saw your face when a message came in and said dear Fee and Jenny I thought no all that good work everything is going so well it's just been undone but it is interesting you know when you move on from an institution and um as darling I haven't as we sort of have so we have. When you do pop back, as we do occasionally,

people, they just sort of, they always want to say, are you all right, you're all right, and a slightly kind of, how could you have had the brass neck to have done something else and gone somewhere else?

And you just have to say to them, do you know what, I know it's hard to believe, but there is life outside here. There really is. I just get the sense that some people don't want to believe that. Well, I think there is.

I think that's perfectly understandable because isn't it, your own kind of immersion therapy. It makes you feel better. Maybe. Yes. Yeah, the other thing that triggered me today was seeing that the loo,

where the phantom crapper of broadcasting house used to lurk, going past that facility really did. Yeah, I'll tell you what, we had some bad mornings there. Never forget, I wrote a little note. As we know you wrote a note. And then BBC Workplace, took it down. Anyway, I'm over it now. Is that you, Gloria?

Now. Actually, I've got an email here, headlined self-help crap. It's a joke for the very, very, very, very, very, very in crowd that one. And if you laughed at that, I'd love to hear from you. Okay, go on. Yes, what? No, I was just going to say my email is headlined self-help crap. Can I just mention this?

I'm on a dog walk, my ears in. Oh, with you in my ears. With my ears in. It's from Fiona. I'm with Fee. The productivity bros and all that. That prescriptive wellness-adjacent work gives me the ick. You did ask for alternative self-help book recommendations.

And Fiona says, enter the antidote. Happiness for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking. It's by Oliver Birkman. I stumbled across this book at a time in my life when I was genuinely crippled with anxiety and it was literally a balm. It gave me the tools which are essentially just how I think about and reframe things. not more stuff or 5am bullshit to-do lists that I still use it today

nearly 15 years on okay Oliver would make a fantastic guest Eve says Fiona there we go so that book again which has helped Fiona the antidote happiness for people who can't stand positive thinking and we've had quite a few similar suggestions

this dish this one comes in from Fiona as well thank you for you do have listeners not called Fiona lovely conversation but actually they're both of them are called Susan, they're not called either Fiona or Jane. We love them all. Give me a comforting sense of home away from home. I live in Italy with my two little sons and I'm currently separating from my Italian husband. Well, Fiona,

Arredeete. Off he goes, goodbye. So going through a bit of a rough patch, my wonderful yoga teacher, Nadia Noreen, published a book called Self-Care for the real world a few years ago, together with her sister Katia. It's very down to earth and has given me much comfort over the years. So that's Narayan. spelt N-A-R-E-I-N first-name Nadia. Apologies for the lack of double-spacing, says Fiona. I work for the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation,

where double spaces after a full stop are actually considered wrong. Isn't that just bizarre? Sorry, what? Bizarre. To have that as a little rule. I mean, that's where the UN's failing, isn't it? God, I mean, no wonder.

You can't have double spaces after a full stop. I mean, I wonder whether you care to be back in touch with us, Fiona. Let us know what happens if you accident. Do you get cast out from the crowd? His war declared? I don't know. Well, yeah. And the Security Council meets and guess what? Northern Capons.

There are some people who insist on double-spacing in briefing notes, aren't there? Yes, no, very much so. Very, very much so. And I do think the indentation has just been said goodbye to, hasn't it? Because there was a time, even when we started doing everything digitally and we had stopped writing formal letters where you were still starting a new paragraph with an indentation. But that's just gone completely by the Bible.

That's never going to come back. It is lost. It is part of ancient civilisations. Can you just say that's a shame? It is a shame. I just wanted to also give a shout out to the yoga fraternity. I went to a yoga class for the first time in years at the beginning of the year, Jane. I went away for a little break.

What a yoga break? No, well, a health spa break. And we were in this yoga class. And the yoga teacher, she was very lovely. but she talked all the way through. I just have a bit of a problem with that. Well, don't they normally? No, I think they usually give you a little bit of time off,

but it was all about gratitudes and internal intonations and inclinations and aspirations and all that kind of stuff. And it did end with this kind of, you know, great big sun thing and me jiggy, what's it, embracing of the world where she said that 2026 was a year of limitless, possibilities and we could just be anything that we wanted to be. She followed the news. Exactly.

And I did also think, look, we're just in a slightly chilly room north of Hatfield. It's close to the M-1. We just need to manage our expectations here. And I suppose when you get out of the habit of being part of that fraternity, for a while, I really, really love yoga. But I did it with a teacher who didn't talk all of the other. way through you so I find it a very calming place to be but this you know constant kind of you're doing it to be better and to liberate yourself I felt so stressed after what's surprised I don't think I'd last very long in that environment so I'm going to embrace Nadia Nareen instead maybe she can

be a little bit more realistic in what I could expect from 2026 and the rest of the world as he so rightly say it's not gone terribly well so far but shout out to the yoga community who exist in their own little bubble and they're all fine. Let's just bring in some of our Australian listeners. Now, I think it's high time for an accent. Good-day. There we are. Happy New Year to you. Right. You got it there. Yeah, certainly, indeed. Evette is melting in Melbourne. I had to laugh. She said Jane was trying to unfreeze her lock and Fee was being careful to slip on icy paths. We sweltered through 41 degrees Celsius yesterday. Today is expected to be a mild 30, which we're already close to at 10.30 in the morning.

And Friday, we're being warned of the highest fire risk danger since the black summer of 2020. We're expecting 38 degrees that day. Well, that was a terrible summer, wasn't it? It was awful. Weaved in towards the conurbations. And actually, another listener, Emma is in Adelaide in South Australia. It was 43 degrees there yesterday, she says. 43.

It's interesting. She says she's glad that when we were talking about my mum earlier in the week that we didn't say passed away. I have a thing about that, so I was never going to say passed away. Gone, lost. I haven't lost her. She's died. If she was lost, I would make a determined effort to look for her, trust me.

And, you know, it's just we don't do passed away, do we. No, we don't. And we definitely, definitely, Jane, we don't do past. No. I find that really, really uncomfortable. Just past. Yeah, I know. Anyway, Emma, thank you for that

And all the best, honestly, everybody in Australia I know you've got the ashes, whatever that is, I never understand it really, but congratulations. I suppose. And I think it's because we're just not used to the heat and so we go over there and we try and play cricket and we just wilt. Well, there is something in that.

Do you think there is? Yes. Why aren't we both cricket pundits as well as everything else we do? Well, we could take it on, couldn't we? Yeah, we could, actually. I'm not sure we could insert a box and off we go. or a soap dish. A lot of people I think used to think

that cricket box was actually a soap dish. And I think, can I just say, by the way, let's hear it for the soap dish. I've recently bought a couple. And I think they serve a purpose. I think they're rather a nice addition to a sink. I would agree with you there. Thank you.

I would agree. And also they do seem to be the gift of choice for the midlife pottery class attendee. Okay. You've distig yoga. Now you're having a go at people who do potter. No, I'm not having a go at all. They're very, very beautiful items. But they definitely have a look of an item of crockery that at one point thought it might be something else.

So in other words, the sort of nursery slopes of the pottery world are something you could have a go at. Yes, yeah. And I've made one myself, so I'm including myself in this nonsense. Sending Love as always comes in from Anita. I feel a bit silly now because I mentioned Dubai in yesterday's email and I know your approach to this country and trust me I didn't mention that to show off or anything like that and actually it's a very thoughtful email Anita so here we go I thought this is interesting Anita we're always open to other views very much so reasonably for the purposes of this broadcast

not everybody who moves there is a tit and I've used my own word there Anita my son-in-law is an architect British with English Indian heritage born and bred in the UK one of the most incredible humble and loving men I've ever met. But the amount of racism he experienced in this country pushed him to make the step and move to Dubai about 15 years ago. He loves living there. He looks like a local man and really the only thing that matters there is his work. And it was the same for my daughter, Polish, and living in Mansfield, a region where Brexit had one of the highest vote levels in this country. You can only imagine how nice it was for this young woman to grow up here

and try to succeed. Not everybody lives in cosmopolitan London, but even there people experience racism as we all know. If you can find the place you feel valued and not judged by your colour or the passport, why not take that chance? Dubai is the most cosmopolitan place I've ever been to. The mixture of cultures and colours is something I love and it's genuine. You work hard and nobody cares where you're from. I know it's not an ideal place, but I meet such a proud cleaner or taxi driver or gardeners from the Far East who are simply proud that they've got a chance to provide for their families living back home. Yes, my heart breaks when I walk or sit in the taxi

and see builders sitting on the side of the road waiting for a bus to take them to the place they're staying. I don't even want to imagine how it looks, but we can't make everybody happy. We cannot change the world. All I know is that my daughter and her husband share what they earn with them by giving people working for them a chance to earn more, treat them almost like family,

even if they don't earn that much, but they can still give them small jobs to do. And it's a really good point at the end as well, Anita, that people are coming to this country by boats and annoys local people. So people who have a chance to go there and work who are determined to create a better life for their families back home

are very grateful to Dubai to give them the opportunity. It's not covered in glitter for them, but let's not forget what's waiting for them back home. The world is hell for people with good hearts. Great Britain is far from ideal, as we all know too. Well, that's really interesting, Anita. Have you been to Dubai?

I have been to do by years and years and years ago I mean a good kind of 20, 25 years ago when it had yet to burst onto its very kind of show-offy, glittery world stage appeal which is not to say that there wouldn't have been far worse conditions for an awful lot of immigrant workers in the country. You know, I don't know whether that's got better or worse with the greater wealth that's arrived.

I suspect it might have got a bit worse. but I don't think my opinion about Dubai is really informed by my visit there it is more about the press it gets and the stories that come from it but Anita I completely take your point that if in fact you've experienced a community

that wouldn't really welcome you in this country and you've gone to a place that does really welcome you then who is anybody to judge our home here as being better than that place how could you You can only speak from your own personal experience and if that place treats you well and as Anita says

all that matters is what you do and how hard you work nobody cares where you're from who you were, who your parents were whatever then we can't argue with it can we? No we should let personal stories inform our opinions

shouldn't we? Probably a little bit more Let's move to France specifically Snowy France as outlined in this email from Cheryl here I am it's a graphic image she sent us. Here I am in my crampons

attached to my sports footwear by elastic rubber bands ready to clear the snow on the pavement outside my blocker flats near Versailles. French law says that pavements should be cleared by the person living in their property. Well, that makes sense, doesn't it? It does, as long as the person living in their property, does it?

Well said. Just out of interest, Cheryl says she also keeps in her outside letterbox a spray to defrost the car's lock as well as spray for the windscreen. I mean, that is just very sensible, practical advice and we could all do with paying attention to that. I did hear on the Hugo Rifkin programme here on Times Radio earlier today

that the Daily Star was advising people in the United Kingdom combating or attempting to combat the snowy conditions to wear socks on top of their shoes. Okay. Yeah, because that's much better grip. Right. seen anybody do that. No, because if you were doing that, people would quite rightly assume that you were

one sandwich short of a lavish picnic. Yeah. But it's a thought. It is a thought, isn't it? Definitely a thought. We did have another email from somebody saying, on the French thing, moving to France and the B&Bs and the Chateaus that you can win and stuff, that if you buy a property that's over 250,000 euros, you're in.

You're okay. Can anybody verify this? But you don't need to worry about coming back About the 180 days in every 90 or whatever it's the way around Yes I have to say that the couple in a place in the sun last night Did buy, they bought it, I couldn't believe it

It was lovely and it was 100 and... Did they buy it though? Well it was 113,000 euros or something Three bedrooms The one on Tuesday And they went right up to the end And they accepted the offer And they did cheers

Chars Marvelous And then the voiceover right at the end Just before the news said that At a change of heart. A change of heart and withdrawn the offer. I love that show.

Because they are scrupulously honest about that kind of thing. It's just I didn't need to know. It was a happy ending. Because we tune in, because we're expecting a world of pain on Channel 4 News at 7 o'clock. And so we like to have a little bit of sun and sangria

in the buildup, don't we? That's why we both watch it independently. I just can't see too many pokey balconies five to seven on a weekday quite often they're not balconies well they're more like postage stamps

they are and actually the couple last night were saying what a great view and I was looking at what is it's a main road and some sort of you might loosely call hillocks in the distance

you're not looking overlooking the Taj Mahal where anyway horses for courses yes let's not be Judge E-Jay well where would we be if we couldn't judge

I don't know what and I do say so many stupid things me wittering on about how there were no good films about sport I mean I've been so put in on dates it's me again the anonymous descendant of the inventor of the penny farthing says this contributor I'll keep it punchy sports films worth watching

I Tonya you're quite right that was brilliant coach Carter any given Sunday sea biscuit fox catcher my favourite is a league of their own it's based on the true story of a an all-women baseball league established in the USA during World War II, poignant and funny in equal measure,

stacks of great actors and actresses, covers sibling rivalry, relationships, war grief, American society during the war, and overtones of feminism. I love it. I've heard that King Richard is good. That's about the Williams sisters.

It is good, yeah. Okay, but S says she hasn't seen it. You're right, though, on the whole. Tennis films are awful, and football films, barely mentionable, especially Escape to Victory, Jane. as you did point out. That's the one with Slice Stallone and Pele

and it is dreadful. It really is dreadful. And one more. The greatest film about football is, this is an email from Helen, is one of the tremendous displays of Liverpool legend Ricky Tomlinson's undeniable talent,

Mike Bassett, England manager. That was funny too. It was Ricky playing hapless Mike Bassett, England manager. But as we know, of course, there'll be no more knocking the England men after their triumphs coming up in the summer. So are you going to make an attempt to go and see England play in the World Cup, England.

Why would I do that? I mean travelling. Yeah, no, but you are... To travel to my sofa, that's all I need to do. You are happy to travel. Yeah, but not to America. Not to America. Not the moment.

You must be bloody joking. I'm not going to... And there are other games in Mexico. I think there are in Canada, is it? Yeah. No, I'll be viewing it all from the sofa. I'm actually getting a new sofa in time for the football. Well, that's very sensible.

Very sensible indeed. I'm not sure that we would get into America anymore. Oh, God. Well, we've been quite outspoken, haven't we? Yes. I'm probably on to something there. I don't know. Maybe, well, you're both very lefty.

Very lefty. Very lefty. So this is going to work so well when we're visualised. Jane made a kind of expression with her hands. We're lefty, hands up in the air. Well, though, what was that? And I still like this phrase. Centrist grannies, that's what we've been called.

Which is good, I'm happy with that. I'm very happy too. Well, I'm not going to chance my arm on getting as far as LaGuardia only for somebody to be turned back. Tell me that I'm not welcome. This comes in from Judith Greenwood and it's very spooky because it mentions Greenwood stores.

It starts off with condolences to Jane on the loss of her mum. And do you know what? Nearly every email that has been sent to us this week has started with that. So we should acknowledge the kindnesses. We should. And I really do want to thank people. And I want to thank you and I want to thank Eve and everybody else. He's just made it possible for me, us to talk about it in a way that

I find hugely helpful. Well, that's good. And that's very nice to hear. We're here for you. No, and I'm massively appreciate it. And I'm actually, my sister said she'd heard the Monday's episode and she'd enjoyed it too. So, you know, these things are are important. And I am probably doing better than I would be if I didn't have this. You see that? That's good to know. I'm very, very fortunate. Well, should we do shout out to Alison, your sister? Yes, hello Alison. She won't be listening to this episode.

She's probably, she checks in every now and again. She's quite busy. Busy with me. Okay, you're very well on a podcast anytime, Alison. I do think that would just be hilarious. Oh, God. Right. Carrying on with judicima. Losing a parent is a big thing,

but it is indeed a marvellous achievement to have had a long, independent, an opinionated life. I think that mothers live on in all sorts of ways mostly in still moderating our behaviour years after they've died. I still hear mine saying things like that's not the way to wring out a dishcloth.

I mean, that's golden. It is, isn't it? I'd like more details on what the right way to wring out a dishcloth is, Judith. And I've never dared to buy shop-bought-mints pies. I'm lucky that she was a talented seamstress and I get out her various homemade decorations with happy nostalgia at Christmas.

Meanwhile, my dad turned 92 in December is chairbound now and grumpily points out and pneumonia used to kill people but the hospital flipping cured me he is a stalwart but there is a good time to die and it seems that Jane's mum found the sweet spot

yeah I would say she did and obviously it's very hard to we don't know her view on it but it didn't I just wonder if anyone's worried about it didn't look that bad to me it just didn't so yeah she'd never you know she was very fortunate

she didn't have dementia, she was opinionated, pretty much up to the last, and that's brilliant. Yeah, and also by the sounds of it, her illness wasn't accompanied by savagery. And actually some of those very late in life injury, you know, if you're injured, if you've fallen, you know, I think, you know, people are so diminished physically as well. It's really hard to see, because it's very, very hard to wipe that memory away. Yes. So, yeah, no, I hear you there. December the 21st is my husband's birthday We always joke about it being the shortest day for a birthday

This year though I clock that many cultures celebrate the 21st Because it's the day that the light starts to come back So I'm attempting to reframe it as a positive date He raises an eyebrow And Judith we did meet because you were Doing some sort of DIY woodwork outside your house On a street very close to where I live And you're absolutely right

I remember this too that the DIY glory was going to your husband who was doing a bit of woodwork outside whilst you were on your knees repairing the plinth and we stopped and had a chat just about the fact that everybody was congratulating the man with the big power tools inside and the poor woman

what you were doing the stuff on your hands and knees and you've mentioned the cost of a dusty knuckle potato sourdough at Greenwood stores in your email and I just want to slightly shock people But does that product buy me again? A dusty knuckle potato sourdough. So it's a sourdough loaf. Dusty knuckles is an amazing bakery because it's a social enterprise,

so it's doing really good things, putting stuff back in the community. We hail that. Why is it called that? I've got absolutely no idea. I suppose because you're kneading, aren't you? Oh, of course. Your hands are getting dusty. Eve thinks there are cameras.

She was doing something with her hands, she was needing. We're all hands. Excellent. Yeah. How much do you think a dusty knuckle potato sourdough costs? I mean, there isn't, there's a markup that's gone on by the time it gets

to some of the other How big is it? It's about... It's about a foot long? No. It's what? Do you know what? Given the measurement

I've just given you and what you've come up with, are you a man? No, it's about half the size. I tell you what, wouldn't that be good if the answer to that question was actually? Okay.

It's the size of a normal loaf. So, I'm a size of a normal loaf. I'm going to say in your neck of the woods that will set you back at least £3.80. It's £6.50. What? Yeah, it's £6.50. Oh, feet. I mean, that... Okay, crazy times.

Crazy times. Yeah, really crazy times. Flipp, you could knock me down with a dusty knuckle. Well, you really could. Sometimes they're not as light as you think of it. It doesn't actually sound that light. Do you say a potato sourdough?

Yeah, potato and rosemary sourdough. It's a delicious thing. It's not that. expensive when it's in the baker itself but because of where we live there's just this you know there is a markup that's going on that's just so painful I was thinking about food this week we had fish cakes last night

my youngest daughter and I and she has a theory there's no good fish cake so I mean I think fish cake is the classic it's the middle of the week what the hell are we going to have dinner you know and I always have a couple of fish cakes in the freezer so they were whipped out last night and actually I'll say that this one wasn't bad but I'd kind of see where she's coming from

Have you experimented with the ones with cheesy middles? This had a melting middle. It was a haddock fish cake, and it was, it was, I'm going to say it's in the top one of fish cakes, but I do understand my daughter's theory. I don't think there is really a knock-it-out-of-the-park fish cake. I'm sorry, that just isn't. I'm slightly with you on that. I think they become a vehicle for condiments.

Absolutely, yes, I'd had a chili sauce from Borough Market on it and ketchup and mustard. in a desperate attempt to really make something of this Wednesday night supper. And also, at the weekend, I'd made a butter bean stew which everyone else liked except me. I thought it was disgusting. And I wonder, it was just, it was really, ugh. I mean, it really gave me the watsits afterwards as well,

but the kids, because both of them were there. It's not, this is really nice. I don't know. Sometimes you don't enjoy your own cooking, do you? Or maybe it's just me. Okay. I'm glad you've got that off your channel actually my mum always said

oh any meal I haven't cooked I enjoy oh no that's not true it's really really not true she didn't always enjoy meals so that I'd cook for her in fairness and she let me say Maria is she says she very much enjoyed the episode with Maggie O'Farrell

that was the day before yesterday wasn't it yes my email in praise of Hamnet also ties in with your comments on rereading because Maria, who's in Bournemouth, says she's read Hamnet three times. I mean, gosh, that's a commitment. It's a big book. It just gets better each time. I fully recommend a reread on books that have a big impact first time round. Sometimes you'll race through because the plot is so gripping, and it's only on the second read that you get the full force of the writing. Now, I know I have said in the past that, well, neither of us reread books, do we? No, and it's just one of those things.

My favourite example of a re-read, says Maria, is Daphne de Morroway's Rebecca. I read this for the first time when I was just 13, having swiped it from the shelf in my dusty year-eight classroom. I just fell head over heels for Maxim. Maxim D'Winter, wasn't it? I thought it was so romantic. Fast forward ten years, I read it again, seeing the red flags, and found the second Mrs. D'Winter, an absolute idiot, but still sat firmly in the Maxim D'Winter fan club. then I read it again in my early 30s and it was different again

having learnt more about de Morier and the context of how she grew up her personality and her marriage my take on Rebecca did a complete 180 spin now it's Maxim who's the villain and Rebecca the tragic victim I wonder how it'll read when I'm in my 50s

I think it's a really stunning example of a book that means something different at different ages in your life and I think that's probably something worth thinking about, isn't it? I know that I did go back to William Boyd's Any Human Heart once, a good kind of 10, 15 years after I'd read it and I just couldn't get as stuck into it as you had done. But I thought that it would be, it would be a good book to reread

because so much of it, I mean, you know, it's about one man's life so you know what's going to happen at the end. You know, he's going to die. So there's no kind of spoiler alert that would ruin a reread. And it definitely didn't, it didn't ring as many bells as it had done when I'd read it when I was younger. But I think particularly actually the work of Daphne de Maurier and all of the writers of that time may become a bit more challenging as well.

Yes, I think that's a good point. When you read it now. We've got a different lens. We have got a feminist and post-feminist lens. Yes, because he was a creepy old man, Maxim de Winter. But I'm with Maria because I thought it was the most impossibly romantic saga when I read it. And I watched the film as well, the black and white film. Yes, that is beautiful, isn't it?

I mean, it's so beautiful. But the film, and I'm contradicting myself, it's so unusual. The film I watch every single winter, so I don't reread, but I do re-watch. She's Dr. Chevalgo. Well, you need a whole winter to watch it. Well, yeah, it is about three and a half hours on, but God, it's good. Every single time I watch it, I love it, I love it, love it. Omar Sharif is just, that's impossibly romantic.

But I did think this time watching it this Christmas that there was a bit of a coincidence that he was able to meet Julie Christie. I mean, Russia's a big country, you know, and he sort of bumped into quite a few times during the Civil War, the World War I. It was interesting that they bumped, kept seeing each other again. Because it's a big place, isn't it? It is. You're nodding wisely.

I am not in wisely. She used to do the travel show. She knows all about big countries, small countries. And she knows the size of a potato, dusty knuckle, soudo loaf. I do. And that's about it, actually, isn't it? That's my CV for you.

Right, shall we introduce our guest? Who is the guest? Because I have watched one of these shows. I thought it was really... There are quite a lot of prison dramas, aren't there on the telly. This is something very, very different. This is Waiting for the Out, which is available on the iPlayer.

at the moment and it is I think a six-parter about life in a prison and one of the stars of it and one of the writers of it is Rick Renton. Rick Renton's life story is worthy of a TV series itself, arrested about 30 times before he was 18. He left school in the North East with no GCSE and by the time he was 19 he was serving time in Durham Prison. But we meet him now as a sought-after playwright and writer, one of the stars of a new TV series called waiting for the out. The show is based on a book by Andy West, who spent time in prison but now teaches philosophy to prisoners, and it chucks out the stereotypes of prison drama and tells us from experiences like Rick's about how a life inside might be transformed. When Rick left

prison, he knew that he had found his creativity for real, not just in fiction. He had started writing on the inside and it paid off on the outside. In 2022, his autobiographical stage play one-off was staged at Newcastle's live theatre. That led to being selected for the BBC Voices writer room and he then joined the team for waiting for the out, which is led by Dennis Kelly, the writer behind TV successes like Utopia. Well, Rick came in to Times Towers earlier. I asked him to tell me more about a pivotal moment in his life when he was put in solitary confinement in jail after a fight. Now Rick Renton's life story is worthy of a TV series itself arrested about 30 times before he was 18. He left school in the northeast with no GCSEs

and by the time he was 19 he was serving time in Durham Prison. But we meet him now as a sought after playwright and writer, one of the stars of a new TV series called Waiting for the Out. The show is based on a book by Andy West who spent time in prison but now teaches philosophy to prisoners and it chucks out the stereotypes of prison drama and tells us from experiences like Rick's about how a life inside might be transformed. When Rick left prison, he knew that he'd found his creativity for real, not just in fiction. He had started writing on the inside and it paid off on the outside. In 2022, his autobiographical stage play won off was staged at Newcastle's live theatre. That led to being selected for the BBC Voices writer room and he then joined the

team for waiting for the out, which is led by Dennis Kelly, the writer behind TV successes like Utopia. Well, Rick came in to Times Towers earlier. I asked him to tell me more about a pivotal moment in his life when he was put in solitary confinement in jail after a fight. Well, it was paramount to the place that I've arrived at today when I was in the hole, as they called it. And I was offered a Bible. And for some, I call it ironic now, but it's like divine. where I just had this idea to ask for a dictionary because I thought, if I don't leave prison any better than I came in, then my time was useless. And so I sat in the hole for three weeks and I read the dictionary from A to M and then I finished it when I was put

back in a general population and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. weeks in solitary confinement, what happens to your brain, your mind, your senses during that time? Well, it's mundane, you know. They take your mattress away at 6 o'clock in the morning and they give it back at 8 o'clock in the evening. And the only place to sit was there was two slabs of metal. welded into the wall and they were perfectly aligned so the only option was to sit

with your spine perfectly straight for 10, 12, 14 hours or to sit in the corner and I ought to sit in the corner and you know it's not fun it's not glamorous and it's

it was challenging you know it was it was challenging can you tell us a bit about your sentence and what you were in prison for? Yeah, of course. I was put in prison for three years on a trilogy of drugs charges,

so I was convicted of selling cocaine, an ecstasy, of which I was 100% guilty. Yeah. And you had had what, I mean, it's a terrible kind of trite saying, isn't it? You'd had a slightly troubled adolescence so education hadn't surrounded you before you went to prison, had it? No, I wasn't an academic by any stretch of the imagination.

I wasn't particularly enthused by school. I had a tricky childhood growing up, but I wouldn't change it. So how does that youngster who, you know, presumably didn't thrive at school, maybe you bunked off a lot or whatever. You know, when you find yourself in a really challenging situation in solitary confinement in prison, somebody's given you a dictionary. Just talk us through how you then decide that you're going to be able to change your life. Because to some people, Rick, a dictionary would just be a series of words.

But it wasn't just a series of words to you, was it? No, not at all. you know I felt something as soon as I got to Ardvoch as soon as I got to abdicate as soon as I got to

like right through the airs like I just I felt something come alive in me you know and I knew in that moment

that I fell in love I fell in love with language because I like I learned I learned that I understood so much that I'd never ever come

I'd never ever come across before. Have you got a favourite letter? Letter? Yeah. I don't have a favourite letter, but I do love words that finish with G-L-E, inveigal, beguile, finagle. Okay, a gull.

Yeah, for some reason, they were the ones that, like, finagle, I was like, oh, it's such a beautiful. It rolls off the tongue, it's gorgeous, you know? Beguile. mystery for some reason that's my thing but I don't have a favourite letter but all my favourite words

end with GLE Absolutely brilliant You're giving me the tingles There you go So how much longer did you have of your sentence to serve after that episode of solitary confinement And learning the love of the words I would say probably a year

year and a half And was it very much a change Rick who went back into the main prison? I mean, did it genuinely enable you to think differently about what life would be like when you left prison?

No. No. I changed mentally. There was something inside me that switched, but never in a million years could I have imagined that this would be my trajectory. When you left prison,

I mean, people often talk about that as an incredibly unsupport. time in their lives. Quite a lot of prisoners come out and are given an 85 pound allowance. Is that how much they get now? Is it 20 quid? 20 quits.

Okay. So you leave prison with 20 quid. What did you do? Where did you go? Back in Newcastle. Straight out of the town, you know. I would love to tell you was something profound or prophetic, but it was, you know, I went straight back out in the city.

What's the prejudice like for somebody who, tries to apply for a job and tries to start again after that I can't speak to so I was I was you know one of the things that I was committed to when I was inside was I wanted to I never wanted to go back and I I wanted to get a job and and so I applied for dozens and dozens of jobs And I was hired four different times and fired four different times on the basis of my history. So they would do a DBS check

within 24 hours and they were like, oh, you've just got out of prison. I was like, well, yeah, but you've hired me on the merit of who I am and what I've presented to you. So that surely should stand for something, but it didn't.

And that was rough. And I actually ended up leaving the country. So you went to Dubai, didn't you? For seven years, yeah. Where you found it easy to get work. Easier than England, I. Yeah. How do we find you here, then,

as one of the writers of this absolutely cracking BBC drama? What's enabled you to now be talking to us today as a writer and an actor? And, I mean, a success, actually, a real proper success. Tenacity. tenacity and never quitting. Who gave you a break in terms of writing? Synergy Theatre Company, Paines Plough, or Dennis Kelly, you know, like I'm not here just on the back of my own effort.

I'm here because of a collaboration of different people, you know, people who have supporters, believed in us. Tell us a bit more about Dennis Kelly and tell us a little bit more about this production. You know, I was a fan of Denneters for so many years and when I found out that he was in charge of this project, it was just a dream come true. It was a dream come true. And he's one of the funniest, humblest, most humble,

men and talented beyond belief. How did the writing of waiting for The Out actually happen? Because it's quite a collaboration. isn't it? Massively. Yes, yeah. So tell us about that. So we spent a couple of weeks in the writers' room, me, Levi and Dennis, and we're just bouncing back ideas about like the themes of the show, you know, like about masculinity, about what it means to be a man today in, you know, in modern times. And also what it's what it means.

to be a, you know, a convict, an ex-convict. And one of the most beautiful about the room was all of us got really vulnerable. And I think that's one of the most important things that can be said about today is that we should share men in particular. We should share and we should be open and we should be vulnerable. And I love that about the room. It's that each one of us was really, really open about our feelings and about what it meant that was important to us about the show.

I don't want to give away what happens to your character in the show so we're not going to talk too much about Wallace and his daughter because I think we should allow the audience to really be taken on that journey but the thing that is surprising that has been much commented on is the way that you are telling a different story about prison actually that seems to avoid a cliche of solid violence solid pain, solid despair. I mean, you are very deliberately

showing intelligent men who've missed opportunities in life try to get their heads around themselves, aren't you? Yeah, absolutely. You know, something that all struck me about when I was inside was there was never a shortage of intelligence in there. You know, like, it was misguided.

it was it was misdirected but there was never a shortage inside of there and I think that's important to show like one of the one of the things I love about Andy's book a life inside and I love about the

the show is this is there's no cliches in this it's like nothing I've ever seen before there's there's it doesn't use the the sugar syrup

or the violence or the threat it's really, really, really humane and I love that about this show. Did you ever attend a philosophy class when you were in prison? Oh, the chance would be a fine thing. No, no.

Listen, the difference, the disparity in the northeast prisons and the southern prisons are vast. We didn't get that opportunity. You know, I didn't know you could get philosophy lessons in prisons. But are they available in the South? Oh, are they?

Are they? Okay, I didn't know that. Why is there a disparity between prison life in the North and the South? Money, money, money. The money symbol. Oh, no. And if I make you prisons, minister, and give you unlimited budget, what's the first thing that you would do? Because our prison system is in a shocking state at the moment.

You've hit us with a big shot there, haven't you? What's the first thing that I would do? It's such a big question. You know, one of the things that I notice in prisons is it doesn't, men don't end up there. It all starts at home. You know, people don't end up in prison because that's so many people say

oh you know like the prison system's broken and it's it's you know this is the problem my belief is that it started home so prisons is a is a symptom it's not it's not the prescription so you have put all of the money into homes and family

Right. That's interesting. Do you mind telling us why Home might have benefited from something else for you if that's one of the reasons why you ended up in prison? Yeah, so I experienced a lot of violence when I was grown up from a very, very young age and as a consequence of that, I became violent and I turned to a lot of negative stuff. things and it didn't have to be that way. I chose where I chose, but it didn't have to be that way. What's next for you? I have a series in development with a wonderful company called Kuros. It's about the first police officer in the UK to ever apply zero tolerance

styled policing, which happened in the North East. What is zero tolerance policing? How does that, how does that, how is that manifesting itself? Well, I think one of the interesting things is it seems to be making a resurgence. The series is called Broken Windows. And the, the origin story came from when Mayor Giuliani was in charge of New York, he hired a guy called William Bartlett to come in and

give his professional opinion on how to reduce crime because robbery, rape and murder were at an all-time high and so he took him around the worst affected areas and after he bought him back and he says okay what do you think he said I think what you need to do is you need to clean up the graffiti you know, wipe away the litter

and you need to fix the broken windows and Giuliani was like, are you out of your mind? Like, we've got an epidemic here. He says, what I think is happening here is you've got an aura of disorder that's so prevalent that people think it's okay to commit crime around here. So what you need to do is at every single level

if someone's cycling on the pavement, if someone spits chewing gum on the sidewalk, You come down on them with the maximum penalty of the law. And you build it up from there afterwards. So that's zero tolerance. Gosh, that's policing for our times, isn't it? It's about to happen. Rick Renton and Waiting for the Out is available on the I player now.

I think it's a brilliant piece of drama, Jane, because it really does avoid the cliches and it portrays life in prison in such a difficult. different way, these really intelligent men, some of whom have simply never been given the opportunity to be intelligent before, find themselves in a place where there's so little to do, and they're amongst a peer group who they don't need to challenge or be challenged by, so it allows them to actually have an education that they would never have had on the outside. We've got to do something about our recidivism problem in this country.

You know, we're absolutely, you know, the prison estate is living off the fumes of the prison estate at the moment, isn't it? There is just no place to go. And those re-offending rates, who are we serving? Well, I mean, the general public, we are, the general public, on the whole, we care very much about crime.

We're very angry about crime. We don't want to be victims of crime. We don't want anyone we care about to be victims of crime. Too many of us don't give a toss what happens in prisons. and it's just not a glamorous cause, is it? I mean, there's so much that needs to be done and nobody is terribly invested in doing it. No, and it's a very difficult political potato.

Oh, really difficult. Build more prisons isn't going to get your votes. A lot more people up is, though. And that's the problem. Yes, and that is the problem. Tell you what, we should be on. Not only cricket, but politics should be. I mean, I don't know.

But I think, so, you know, quite often you'll get a politician talking about being prisons, ministers, and it turns out they've only been prison minister for a couple of months. I don't know who I'm thinking of. But they've got a lot of thoughts about it. There is a new series, I think, of time coming up very soon as well. It's the Jimmy McGovern drama on the BBC as well with Chavorn.

You just looked it up and I was talking. Chavon Finnarin. She's such a good actress. I'm sorry, Chavon. Unlikely she's listening. But you never know. She's so good and she's in this and I think it's coming up quite soon. Excellent.

So that's it. That's it for this week. Is there a Friday special? No, it's January. It's not something special about tomorrow, sadly. No, no, no, no, no. So we will join you on Monday. We wish you a very happy weekend.

If Storm Goretty is coming your way, well, just zip up, put your socks outside your shoes. That's the key message. Yeah, and buy yourself a nice cheap loaf of bread and I hope you survive. I'll see you on Monday. But crucially, not trainer socks

because they'll just look ridiculous because they'll just be sticking off the end of your shoe. You'll look absurd. You want a really thick pair of socks on top of your shoes. Good luck. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you.

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