Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Firmly clasping a jodhpur-clad buttock...

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

Welcome to this elevated, culturally charged, aggressively sophisticated podcast. Jane and Fi tackle Frankfurt kitchens, Liverpool Echo obituaries, the ethics of wearing a baseball cap indoors, and the art of putting off boiler servicing - among other highbrow pursuits. We've announced our next book club pick! 'Just Kids' is by Patti Smith.You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_uki.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I don't watch Bake Off anymore. I just, it's not because I don't. It's just because it's not something I can find time for. Oh, don't be so pompous. So with Channel 4 news and then straight into something else on BBC 4, I just don't have the time. We've got time for Ken Follett. At PWC, we don't just deliver ideas.

We make them work. With the expertise in tech you need to outthink and outperform, and we work with you, alongside. you from start to finish so you can stay ahead so you can protect what you built so you can create new value we build for what's next so you can get there now pwc so you can pwc refers to the pwc network and all one or more of its member firms each of which is a separate legal entity Did you feel that it was a bit kind of Monday?

I feel sometimes you have to try to make your appearance just a little bit more pleasing to yourself in the mirror on a Monday, don't you? I'm more forgiving of myself by Thursday, really. Well, maybe I'm just too tired, I can't really see. Happy Monday, everybody. Welcome aboard. Here we are. Oh, okay. I'm a little J-Dish.

But look, I'm going to dig in. I'm going to dig in. Now, what was I going to say? A very sad news today about Jilly Cooper actually, 88. And when did we interview her a couple, was it two years ago, for Tackle? It must have been two years ago. Just a book about football and then Rivals was on the telly and everybody was talking about it. So she's had a wonderful, kind of a late life renaissance, didn't she?

But let's just be honest, those of us who enjoyed her bonk busters in the 80s are not going to forget. I'm not going to forget Jilly Cooper. Yes. Did you enjoy them, though? I recall you didn't. I read them. I think for many people, Jilly Cooper was a person, a writer who you travelled through time with and not necessarily all of time. So we devoured her books when they came out because I think we were probably in,

we were kind of 14, 15 years old, maybe even a little bit younger, when those individual books came out. Do you remember they were just called Bella and Imogen? Now, what were they? I didn't read any of those. And things like that. So, well, they were always, I mean, they were love stories. They were romantic stories.

But they just went a bit further than other books at the time were going. And the woman always came out of it fine. She had had some kind of, you know, incident or difficulty. And she was definitely, you know, revivified by falling in love with somebody. who could at times have been a cad but then usually came to see sense through true love it was that kind of thing

but they just pushed the boundaries a little bit more than other books did which is why they were devoured by quite young teenagers I think we were probably actually about 12, 13 years old but then I didn't really read her again until riders which I remember just gulping

down in kind of three long nights of reading because whatever you thought about and the criticism that would have been leveled at Julie Cooper was always that she was a very, very talented writer who perhaps didn't use all of the brushes in the pot so she probably could have written at a much higher intellectual level she could definitely tell a yarn and a story

but she for whatever reason probably because of her huge commercial success didn't feel the need to go there but I hadn't read many of her later books and I'll just be honest about that but she was hugely, hugely powerful, actually, within publishing. Well, Riders was before Rivals, wasn't it? Because Rivals was about the commercial, regional commercial television. Once Rupert Campbell Black had got a little bit saddlesaw, not necessarily through riding.

No, no, he was, and that was the cover that you wouldn't get away with now. I think that when they brought it out again, they had to, they reissued riders. Because it was a hand down the Jodper, wasn't it? Well, I think it was a hand firmly clasped to a job per buttock, was it? Well, there was definitely a hand. Let's just imagine this for a couple more moments. It was a book of its time. It was.

And it was a cover of its time, very much so. She was a huge greyhound champion as well. I just want to pop that in there. She rescued greyhounds and she did an awful lot to raise awareness about the horrors of greyhound racing. She was a huge, huge animal lover and dog lover at full stop. and everybody who I know who properly knows her I would never claim to properly know her speaks of her very, very generous heart

and hospitable nature and she always wrote cards to people and said thank you and stuff like that and there's a place for that in this world. There is. So Jilly gone but certainly not forgotten at 88 which is a good innings I would say. Now the Ken Follett interview unfortunately there was a terrible, that terrible

incident at the synagogue on Thursday and that meant that we had to slightly curtail our conversation with Ken Follett which I think it would have gone on for a few more minutes wouldn't it but quite rightly we had to cut away to I think it was the chief constable in Manchester so Ken perhaps didn't get the time I mean as Fino's I would like to give three or four hours to an interview with Ken Follett wasn't possible but I just want to say to Lynn I've just listened to your conversation with Ken Follett it was a real joy I saw his book this morning an eye-wateringly priced hardback. I'll have to wait for the paperback to read about orgies with a point, as I suspect the waiting list at our library is months long.

Well, good news for you, Lynn. We've had a rummage around my drawers, and there is a copy of Circle of Days that we can send to you. So Eve will be in contact, and then we'll sort that out because we don't want you to wait. We want you to have a couple of nailed on good quality nights in over the next couple of months. I'd say a couple of good quality months in... It is nearly 600 pages long. It's a very, very substantial tone, isn't it? Sorry, I can switch myself off.

You switch me on. Thanks, Eve, thank God you're here. Anyway, condolence letters, just talking about letters, and Lynne says, can be important and provide solace, or they can be like the most memorable comment made to me following the death of my beloved father. It came from a colleague of many years

who could possibly have moonlight as a writer for Basilden Bond. You've been to your father's funeral, he said. Well, imagine how Barbara feels. Her cat died. It's over 30 years and I still haven't come up with an appropriate response. There isn't one, Lynn.

So I'm not surprised you haven't come up with one. But rest assured, your tome, your mighty Ken Follett Tome, will be making its way towards you as soon as we've got your address details. Now, this is an email-only one, isn't it? Yes, thank you. Thank God for that. and I just want to go back to a couple of emails

that we've not had time to do over the last couple of weeks or so I've got a huge stack in a clear plastic folder, Jane, in my draw because I'm trying to be a bit more organised about the filing system so I'm going to just try and dig into ones that we haven't been able to read out

so if you have emailed in over I'd say the last two years then your email may be coming back now if circumstances have changed I apologise. This one comes in, though, from Joanna in Shrewsbury in Shropshire. And you might remember she was the lovely listener who emailed in to say that she was going to take a trip with members of her family

to see the very important exhibition at the Imperial War Museum about sexual violence against women in war. First, let me apologise for the long delay in providing feedback on the exhibition, says Joanna, well, you don't need to apologise, do you? because it turns out we're all a little bit delayed on this one. Joanna says, I took my adult children to see at the Imperial War Museum in London, getting a date that suited each of us that was suitable in London was a challenge, but we made it.

We braced ourselves before going into the exhibition, which is discreetly tucked away in order to prevent anyone straying in by accident, feeling a little bit anxious as to what we might see as once seen. It isn't easy to forget. we all felt it was very well presented with great sensitivity there were no terrible photos showing violence being carried out but rather photos of places some faces and their stories sensitively told laid out for visitors to wander around and read

the stories were from all over the world and explore why and how sexual abuse is still used in war and at the end by the exit there was a short film in which the three women and one man who had put the exhibition together I think asked us not to stop feeling compassionate They asked us to ensure that toxic gender norms do not carry seeds of patriarchy within them.

Joanna goes on to say the exhibition really is an important one. We were glad to have seen it and I'd encourage everybody to go, all genders. It gave us an awful lot to think about. Anyway, we all got back to our individual homes eventually, and yes, trains ran late. And on our final leg from Birmingham to Shrewsbury, the train was cancelled.

Talk about being brought back to the mundane with a crash and actually we didn't mind too much. Joanna, thank you for that. Thank you for taking the time to fill us in on your thoughts and thank you for giving such a positive review of the exhibition because that's just one of the obvious things, isn't it? People will think, gosh, you know, it's a slightly rainy Saturday is this what I want to be doing with my time?

But you might come away from it thinking it has indeed been worthwhile. Yeah, well, that reminds me that, and I must make the effort to go to this, Tate Britain is having that exhibition of the Lee Miller's photographs. Yes. And we talked to Lee Miller's son, didn't we, when that film with Kate Winslet came out. And I thought he was really impressive. And I thought that film was really good.

It was about the life and times of the war photographer, Lee Miller, starring Kate Winsler. I can't remember now what it was called. Just Lee. Was it called? Just Lee? Okay. And that was really, really good.

And that did, has really made me realize that I need to know more about this woman. So I am going to absolutely make the effort to go to that exhibition. It's on until February the 15th, I think. So you've got some time. No one, and certainly not me, I have no excuses, and I will go to that. Yeah. Because she was truly, truly brilliant. We went to the new VNA storehouse over in East London this weekend,

which is the amazing concept of opening up the warehouse of the V&A. So over in East London, it's in the former Olympic Park, which is just an extraordinary positive thing, Jane. If you think about all of the Olympic sites across the world that have just become terrible. kind of carbuncles of decrepit and desolation. And still not paid for. Yeah, after the Olympic Games have gone.

Actually, our Olympic Park is mind-boggling. It's just got so much in it now. So the VNA had their big storehouse over there, which, I mean, listeners may be ahead of me here, stored all the things that occasionally got put on exhibition at the VNA, the big one over in Kensington. And somebody had the brilliant idea. I think Ed Vasey claimed it was his,

but it wasn't. Somebody. Ed Vasey occasionally does DJ work here just to form a... What was he? What was his culture minister? He was a junior minister. Yes, minister. Emphasis on the junior, not the minister. In the conservative government, a conservative government. But he is Lord Vasey now. What's he Lord Vasey of? Oh, I couldn't tell you.

Okay. I mean, I should be careful here because I do live very close to his sister. Right. Anyway, it's not, it wasn't Ed who did the VNA storehouse. I'm sure he may have had a conversation. ocean that maybe sparked somebody's mind but it's just the most brilliant thing it is four floors with this huge atrium opened up so you walk in and and it's just obviously how the warehouse used to be so you've got those you know metal stairs and that funny kind of you know grid thing that you walk

across which i always think is this going to disintegrate underneath me and you can see they've they've put out about a thousand pieces just in their open boxes and you can wander around and you've got little QR codes, if you want to delve into the history of the objects a little bit more. But for those of us who aren't terribly good in museums, I get that museum blindness after about three exhibits. I just can't really take on any more information and I just want to go to the cafe and then the gift shop. This is brilliant because you just walk around, you don't feel. So you do know what you're looking at. Well, yes. So yes, there's a kind of basic, I mean, tiny thing. It'll literally just say, mahogany chest, and that'll be it.

And then there's a kitchen from Frankfurt that's been completely taken out of somebody's house and you can just stare at it. And some amazing pieces of porcelain and suits of armour and swords and all kinds of things. But there's not a great big kind of, you know, do you have to stand there and read something for 15 minutes? No, no. and whatever. So I found it just really, really blissful. Because you want to get a wiggle in case they sell out of key rings.

Well, in the gift shop. Yeah, I don't think that they have got a shop. They've got a little cafe on the way out. I don't think they've got a shop. But I would highly recommend it. I think it's just a brilliant concept. And it was packed. And there were loads of kids.

I mean, just props to parents who are taking their kids to museums at the weekend. But they seem to be having a much better time than they often do in more kind of smarter, uptight museums because there is just a more kind of sense of freedom about it. I thought it was great. People are going to be wondering, am I listening to an edition of Radio 4 Arts Programme front row?

Well, I don't think they will be because I don't think I've managed to say anything other than there was a mahogany chest in a kitchen. Frankfurt kitchen and a mahogany chest. But I'm going to elevate us even further by discussing the dress code at the Royal Opera House in Covent Garden. And it's funny this listener has emailed It's Eloise Because I did

I had a thought about this the other night Look, I'm a fine one to talk But our listener says Just listening to your conversation About Jane's trip at the Royal Op To the Royal Opera House I'm a big ballet fan I love going there

I try and go a couple of times a year But I do have a pet peeve I do wish there was a dress code I believe part of the night Is dressing up especially In the gorgeous gilded surroundings It makes it a special night but seeing half the audience in jeans and trainers

really takes that away and each time I go I see more people dressed even more casually last time I went I was in the really cheap standing area that cost £12 and I went in a formal dress and heels and I was the only one decked out I had come straight from work and pack my outfit in a bag but changed in the loos when I'd arrived as it didn't feel right going in in my casual clothes

yes I'm interested in what you say that I mean, I went straight from work and I put tights on and I had a dress on. But I do feel for people, Elieuiz, who really have proper jobs and just can't go into the office clad as though they're going on a glitzy night out afterwards. So I think there's something,

whilst I hear what you're saying, I think you need to open up this sort of experience, the ballet, the opera, to people of all sorts who have every right to go wherever they want in comfortable clothing. and that particularly includes footwear because let's be honest

navigating away around London in heels is not a barrel of last for anybody so I hear you and what I will say is that somebody sitting very close to me the other night was wearing a baseball cap during the ballet and there was something about that

that for some reason troubled me slightly That's terrible My father had an absolute cob on about people wearing baseball caps indoors and quite a few times he had just he had actually tipped them off people's heads knocked them off

and it was wearing the baseball cap also the wrong way around which I think I never just don't understand that at all well that hints that you know you're you're telling people it doesn't doesn't suit anyone's face so no I think I think that's wrong I'm kind of with you on the dressing down thing but but I'm also with our correspondent that if you've really if you're really savoring an evening it somehow slightly diminishes your own enjoyment doesn't it if everybody else has turned up in casuals but maybe you just need to

Maybe the venues just need to kind of have a formal evening sometimes. And then the rest is what we would have called mufti. Exactly. Yes, there's no good belly aching about how only certain people go to the ballet and the opera and the theatre if when people who want to go in elasticated waist trousers, trainers and a sweatshirt, go along dressed exactly like that because that's what suits them and that's how they... Good luck to them.

And also, Jane, it's very confusing now because some of those creative genie eye, They often dress down, don't they? I mean, the world is full of confusion at the moment for all of us. Suzanne says, every January for the last 20-odd years, my colleagues and I, who used to work together, go to the ballet. We go every January, sometimes at the Opera House, and we sit in the gods. It's about £65 a ticket, and we always eat there.

This is what I was confused about the other night. We have dinner before the start, so plenty of time to eat comfortably. First interval dessert will be waiting for us. We've never had to rush it. The second interval is for coffee. It's a fantastic thing to do and not overly expensive considering the settings.

It's a real treat in the gloomy month of January. Okay, I'm glad to... Thank you for explaining that, so I appreciate you have your dinner before the start, so there is plenty of time, and then it's just your pudding in that first interval. Got it. Suzanne, thank you very much.

But if you have strong views on a dress code at the Royal Opera House, please do contact this podcast. I'm going again in a couple of weeks now. I'll report back. That's the nutcracker in December. I believe it's about nuts. Now, this one comes in from Carmel from Bristol, and I don't know whether you notice this to Carmel, but there's something very odd about the photograph that you sent in. So look, here we go. I've just returned from a wonderful two weeks in the door doign. And even there, you were not far from my thoughts.

Whilst visiting a local Bastide town, I spotted a random collection of words, see photo attach, pinned to one of the narrow alleyways we were exploring. And the words petite fee caught my eye in French, this means little fairy. So that's... Let's have that again. Okay, that's great. Yes. So there are just these random signs.

So they're proper signs. Like, you know, we're to have road signs of just some words. And one of them is a sign that says petite fee. So that means little fairy. But look, one of the other signs, Jo. I know. I've just noticed. It says Predator. Why?

Why? Why? So Carmel, we need a little bit more info on this. So these signs that were for sale, were they... I mean, it just seems really odd and presumably Predator means exactly the same in French as it does in English. Why would anyone...

Well, that should be very helpful to have that sign, wouldn't it? Well, yeah. Quite a lot of places we'll be able to put it. Anyway, do get back in touch about that. There's plenty more in Carmel's email, though. I had to giggle when Jane mentioned the effusive death notices in the Liverpool Echo. My first job after university in 1985

was in the classified advertising department of the Bristol evening post. Most of the family notices were phoned in by local newsagent shops, but some were placed in person at the front desk, where I did regular stints as a receptionist. Bereaved relatives would bring in the notices announcing the death of their loved ones, which I had to write down on a docket and send to the composing department for printing in that day's paper.

Most of the time I'd maintain a somber and respectful demeanour, but sometimes the notices were horribly mawish, and written in excruciating me bad poetry, which would start me off twitching with mirth. And we could all imagine, Carmel, what that excruciating poetry was like. And maybe in the throes of grief, some people find their solace in poetry.

And quite clearly, some people don't. Obviously, this was entirely inappropriate, so the only way I could cover my sniggering was to pretend to drop my pen on the floor and ducked down behind the desk and scrabble about trying to find it. picking up another one of your recent threads I'm 62 and I've been working for 40 years

Now if we were in a Steve Wright studio Oh yeah it'd be a huge round of applause We're doing a massive massive round of applause to you for that I long to retire whilst I still have my health And the energy to do the things I love I only took a six month break When I had my son 27 years ago And also cared for my mother for 12 years

While she was living with dementia Whilst working throughout I'm hoping I can hang on to some motivation to limp along for another three years and start drawing my personal pension when I'm 65, but my enthusiasm is waning. Well, Carmel, I think those of people really, really sympathise with you over that. And we've been talking about these Denise moments, haven't we, where you just think, I just can't do this anymore. And I think, gosh, I mean, 40 years of work, you're 62 you think presumably you pop that particular age of 65 down on a form somewhere when

you were much younger and I mean these timelines they just change don't they they change the closer you get and you might want those objects in the front view mirror to come a little bit closer and we all really sympathise with that so I hope that you can hang on and And also, I just think that is a lot. If you only took six months off 27 years ago and to do over a decade of looking after your mum, then, I mean, that's, you know, those years probably feel an awful lot longer, actually. So we send you lots of love, and I hope that retirement does come exactly when you want it to, really.

Yeah, I feel for you. That sentence, I'm hoping I can hang on to some motivation to limp along for another three years. So this is the thing. She is, Carmel is 62, so yes, her personal, her state pension won't come in until 67. But her personal pension, yeah. But when you tick that box and you say when I want to retire, you're often doing it when you're much, much younger. And so, you know, you might think, yeah, 65, that'd be great. And then, you know, that's what your money's based on.

And it's difficult. But, yeah, we're here for you, Carmel. And just will send us a little bit more detail about where those signs are from. Yeah, we'd like to know. I think this is funny from Steph. I heard you talking the other day about death notices. You mentioned the Obits in the Liverpool Echo, Jane. A friend of mine says he used to read them all because they were so brilliantly written.

He says his favourite was, Jerry, you've bounced back from worse than this lad. Right. I think that is the final word on Obits in the Liverpool Echo. And I wonder whether Jerry did actually come back from that. We probably have heard about it because that actually in all fairness would have been the second coming. So we'd all now be worshipping Jerry.

At PWC, we don't just deliver ideas. We make them work. With the expertise in tech, you need to outthink and outperform. And we work with you, alongside you, from start to finish. So you can stay ahead, so you can protect what you built, so you can create new value. We build for what's next, so you can get their next. Now, PWC, so you can. PWC refers to the PWC network and all one or more of its member firms,

each of which is a separate legal entity. Now, just back to a fantastic TV fabulous recommendation that came in a couple of weeks ago, which we were completely and utterly back. It's from Ginny, who's a third-time emailer. It's the newsreader on BBC Eye Player, smart, intelligent Aussie drama about a news studio in the mid-1980s reminded me a bit of the great 80s movie Broadcast News

which starred the wonderful Holly Hunter, I love broadcast news that's the one where the tape goes down the line, down the line, down the line, down the line and they only get it in just in time for the story to go on air. I don't remember that. Oh my gosh. Who else is in it? William Wattsett. This is proper name as well.

William Hurt? Was it William Hurt? I think it might be. Blond. Could we look that up, Eve, Baby, Baby. Thank you. broadcast news right i watched a film at the weekend called all of oh we watched that too all of us oh my god why don't we just live together

it's so pointless having two boilers what was it who was it was william hurt and holly hunter it's a lovely it's a it's a i think it's a great great movie i love those movies about newspapers or news or whatever broadcast news yes yes Podcast News and the Post, I think it's just fantastic. Yeah. So all of... Was it all of you or all of...

No, I think it is all of us. And I didn't recognise either of the two main leads. Well, this is... I'm glad you mentioned this. So I watched it. I hope it is the same film we're talking about as part of our Five Live reunion in Devon, which I will be over by the time this time next week comes around. Just to say, everybody is younger than me

and they just... You know, they're more active. How can I put it? I can't put it any other way. So it's, we thought it might be a kind of rom-com. I assume anything that's romantic is a rom-com these days. You've got to laugh, haven't you? But it didn't have any, I mean, it wasn't. It was just a romantic film.

But, uh, okay, spoiler alert. With a sci-fi element. We have watched, this is the same film, isn't it? Oh, no, I'm watching a different one. No, because the one where you could go and find your true love. Oh, yes. With, yeah. Gosh, I wouldn't say that's a sci-fi element.

Well, can I just say. app where you were paired up with your soulmate. I read a review because I didn't understand it. I read a review to help me understand it and they said lots of viewers have missed the sci-fi element and I thought, well including me which is why I brought it up there.

It was just a very advanced dating app. All of you. All of you. All of you. Okay. It was very what I would say about it was it is extraordinarily slight. It was underwhelming. Yeah. Really? Yeah, okay. Well I'm glad you said that

because we got to the end of it and we were just like, what? What? Okay, I'm really, that makes me a bit better, yeah. Yes, anyway, it's available that film, if you want to give it a world. Yeah, it was also just one of those very, every scene was just very staged. It wasn't very funny either, was it? No, well, I don't think it was meant to be a comedy.

Oh, wasn't it? No. Also, basically, just to get, because nobody's going to watch it after this ramble from. Well, please don't. I don't think it's a waste of space. Exactly. But I think it had won prizes. I just don't understand it.

Anyway. Basically, it's a couple having an affair. And the woman, she's, he's single. She isn't, she's married with a child. She seems to be able to find so many opportunities to go away with the bloke. And I was thinking about, how could you? And also, and never get spotted. Never spotted, never found out.

He doesn't have her phone detail, so he doesn't know where she is. Well, she's having sex with this other fella in a hotel. Very high-quality air-b-m-be-s. It's just all very peculiar. Anyway, look, if you're a film critic, you can explain its appeal. Oh, no, please don't. Actually, don't. No, let's just talk about something more interesting.

Don't explain to us. Can we just go back to the news reader? It's fantastic. I think this is the, so there are two previous seasons, and hopefully this is the last season, because I think they'd ruin it if they tried to stretch it out any longer. But I think it's a great, great piece of TV, and the kind of jittery nature of the people who want to be hosting the news

is perfectly captured as well. I think they do a very, very good job. job. It is very, I must finish it actually. I think I've got two more to go. I love both the central characters. They're both so vulnerable in their own way and I just find it fascinating. Ellen Norwood and Dale Jennings. That's it, Dale Jennings. He said, by the way, Dale Jennings is a terrible newsreader, isn't he? He's appalling. But when you see him performing his absolutely appalling news reading, you do think, well, that reminds me of some people back here, you know, who... Not here. Yes, here.

What? You were incredibly wooden when they were reading the news. And this was kind of through the early 80s as well, wasn't it? The first couple of seasons, and then it hits late 80s towards the end. And there definitely was that kind of rigid news pose going on. But Dale's got all kinds of things in his locker, and... Well, so is she. Some of that has a brush with reality in all of our minds, too, and she is battling some pretty absurd sexism

and misogyny. But it's just brilliant. I think we've made it sound a bit turgid. Oh no, it's lovely. It's really, really brilliant. It's really lovely. And I hardly recommend that one. My favourite character is that Nulls, Nolene, the woman who does all the work and sometimes gets recognised, but not always. And she married, for me, the rather attractive sports jock in the newsroom I like him. Rob. Rob. Rob! God do it. Anyway, Australian listeners may have understood some of that. Yes. Oh, no, that's a good point, because if you are

listening in Australia, has it been a huge hit over there? I would hope so. Or is it one of those things where, you know, we love it because we're kind of viewing it from afar? Yeah, let us know. Because maybe people didn't really understand Drop the Dead Donkey if you were watching it from abroad.

Did you feel the effects of Storm Amy? Yes, we did. Actually, yeah. I had to pack in some cycle plans. I fell off my bike this weekend. Oh dear. I know. So far, you've got a much a lot with your bike, have you?

One bike, Nick. and I've taken a tumble off the other one I think maybe there's a god of cycling Let me have a look please Has it healed? It's on the way to healing I tell you what you do notice It's quite a bit of a grey It's not very nice

I'm sure that was uncomfortable It does take longer for scabs to heal As you age It does, I fell over when I got to Greece And it's only to the scabs And it just fallen off A very sophisticated arrival Let's not talk about our scabs

No we've done scabs Jenny says And I don't watch Bake Off anymore I just It's not because I don't It's just because it's not something I can find time for She says Oh don't be so pompous

With Channel 4 news And then straight into something else on BBC 4 I just don't have the time We've got time for Ken Follett Actually I haven't quite finished Jenny says Is it just me

That finds watching Bakeoff triggering because the male judge always takes the lead. That's Paul, isn't it? Speaking first and for longer, leaving the female older, more intelligent, accomplished and experienced judge, Prue Leith, to play second fiddle.

Well, I can't comment it because I haven't seen it, but not lately anyway. Is that happening? Do you know what? If it does happen, that's as much the fault, if not more, the fault of the editors than it is the judges.

I've never noticed that, Jenny. And also, I do think Paul Hollywood's the baker. I mean, Prue Lease is a chef. She's a chef, yeah. So maybe, I don't know. Yes, I've forgotten that. Maybe he's got it written into his contract that he has to. He also, and this is such a weird thing,

he stands on the left of the screen, and in TV language, the person on the left of the screen does talk first, and it's often seen as the more kind of important position to have. And it's one of the things that Louise Minchin railed against when she had a new host on the sofa. who was younger and less experienced than her and she was still on the right-hand side. Which one was that?

Dan Walker. Yeah. So it may have something to do with TV language. But you know what as well, Jenny? I mean, this sounds like I'm giving far too robust a defence of something that you may be quite right to point out. But Prue Leith is one of the most strident and I think she's good at holding her own inner place of work.

I think she's a kind of good. strong woman to have on board. I think if she ever felt that there was a slight on her expertise should say something. You'd imagine so, wouldn't you? Yeah. But I must admit, I don't, and Fee's right, it is Paul, who is the official baking guru. So maybe that gives him special authority. Anyway, we should have acknowledged that the new Archbishop of Canterbury is a lady. A lady. And that means she's the head of the Anglican church, apart from the king, so she's number two. and we all live in interesting times but I must say I was 14 when we got a female Prime Minister

61 and a half when we got a female Archbishop of Canterbury what else is going to happen quite extraordinary times I mean we've had a female queen across nearly the whole of your life that's true yeah and here we are two women doing an afternoon radio show together never been done before and we're in year four yeah we're still we're still here just about It's because we don't share our boilments Actually my boiler was serviced recently

And it passed with flying colours Did it, I'm loath to service mine Because I think it wouldn't There's quite a lot of creaking and whatever going on So I'm just crossing my fingers at the moment Which seems a very sensible way to approach Many things in my house We wish you were good winter

There is something very special about You don't read a boiler When you turned up the thermostat And you have that gorgeous, comforting Shoo! Yes As the boiler meets your thermal thermostat and glorious heat starts to emanate through the building. Well, last night was the first night...

If you can afford your energy bills, by the way, I know I understand loads of people are worried about that, get it. Last night was the first night that we actually had the heating on at all in the house. Of course, also. We've made it all the way through. So it was a promise to ourselves. We weren't going to switch it on until October. So there we go.

It's a Presbyterian. Well, yes, no. I mean, this is the Presbyterian Scott coming through. It's nothing wrong with a jumper. All four. But not a baseball. no never well the baseball cap doesn't affect any warmth on your head anyway oh it's a good point what does the baseball cap actually do i don't know i mean it you know it's it hides bad hair or

you know lack of hair and i'm not laughing at that at all um and no i'm not so i know no you moved at speed to make that clear no you know i don't because i think that you know taking the piss out of bald men is just but can i just actually just well i've got the opportunity i just want to say that i just want to be on the podcast that keeps on saying that Donald Trump is just bonkers and we've got to keep calling it out because his so-called speech at this Naval Academy at the weekend.

I mean, we will only have, never mind female Archbishop Bacantropies, we will only have reached true equality when a female politician can stand up and talk garbage like that at length. So he tried to do an impersonation of how President Obama used to walk down steps. Yeah, that was the week before.

I mean, just... That's just unbelievable. Extraordinary. In this one, he tried to claim credit. Well, he claimed he'd warned the authorities about Osama bin Laden and told Pete Hegseth. But it's not, Pete Hegseth was 19 at the time. I mean, it was all just rubbish. And these naval cadets are to just stand there and listen to this junk. Moving on. Yeah, Trump comes up in this important email from Katie, which came in a couple of weeks ago when we were talking about Donald Trump's ridiculous claims about the link between paracetamol and autism. So Katie says, in a lot of the discussions I've heard, including yours, that's ours, there is a huge missing part of the conversation. This is that autism isn't something to be feared. It's not to say that autistic people don't face genuine obstacles in a world not built for them, particularly non-speaking autistic people and those with higher support needs. But to be autistic is simply to see the world differently.

It's genetic and autistic people have existed as long as people have existed. It's a whole separate culture and way of being. Not only that, but autistic people contribute hugely to society and many more have the potential to contribute hugely to society but as shamefully underestimated and unsupported. And Katie goes on to say, before my son's got their autism diagnoses, I would probably have seen autism as something to be feared too.

It's been almost a decade since my eldest son was diagnosed and I've learnt so much since then, including that I am likely autistic myself. I love my sons and a big part of what I love about them is that they are so much themselves and see the world in an interesting way. So the idea that people would talk about curing or eradicating autism really hurts my heart.

Katie, thank you for that email. Thank you for making that point. It is noted and of course you're absolutely right and it was lacking in our conversation when we talked about the nonsensical and non-evidence-based link between paracetamal and autism. And, of course, I mean, what an enormous contribution, autistic people have made to society.

So you're right to view it in that way that you're not normal if that's how you're born is wrong. So my apologies on that front. And as so often happens actually on this podcast, you get nudged in a direction through people's personal experience, not being lectured by experts, but people's personal experience. and we are all better for it

we are and the trouble is that man comes up with so much crap that we've moved on probably too quickly from the autism paracetamol bullshit well we have to because there will be because there's something 24 hours there's another thing that's just redonculus

honestly we will not look back on this period of our lives with any positive sentiment I am sure I just wanted to end with this slightly worrying note from Penny she says she's a marriage celebration She absolutely loves her job. Part of the ceremony is, of course, the wedding vows. Now, I offer my couples some examples to choose from

or the option to write their own. Lots of couples do this, keeping them secret from the other person. Now, the wonderful thing about this option is the personal, unique voice of the individual and the heartfelt love, affection and commitment that shines through. The sad thing is I'm starting to detect some AI

in these personal vows. They're just two persons. perfect and you lose the genuine voice of the person committing themselves to somebody else. It's just a little thing and of course I never say anything but it's as though your own voice isn't quite good enough. Love the show. Love the show says Penny. Thank you Penny. Yes, that's a bit dismal isn't it? But I wondered how different that was from when you were just because we got married in a registry office. One of my many marriages. And we were given And in fact, both times, we were given booklets to advise us on vows

with a huge selection of different vows that could be said. So are the AI vows that Penny is now witnessing very, very different to some of the suggestions in those booklets? Because I remember thinking that some of the suggestions in those booklets were just daft. I mean, they were so kind of flowery and blousey and cut and paste options but then is that any

I mean it's an interesting point actually and thank you for that penny if you get married in a church then you've got very few options you have to go along with you can only really take out a couple of things you can't really put your own things in I don't think you can

no but you can take out the obey you can definitely take that out thank heavens but look I'm very interested in that penny but I also think Fee's point is interesting too can other celebrants let us know what you think and also Lady Vickers if you're out there has the appointment

of Sarah Malawi given you I mean does they put a genuine spring in your step do you actually think why not me eventually if I keep at this game are you excited by it I'd like to know I'd like to know how many Vickers are ambitious to kind of make it up the Vicar line

And are you allowed to be ambitious? Yeah, it kind of slightly goes against the teachings of the Lord. That's what I'm... But there are obviously some very ambitious... I'm switching myself off. What am I trying to say? Maybe Denise is with us in the studio. Tiny one at the end,

and you're allowed to laugh at this by the time we get to the end of this email. Dear both, well, mainly Jane. Two comments from Jane have caused me to email on Monday's episode. Jane implied that netball is. played at walking speed and you can't run with the ball. Then on Tuesday, claim that she bigged up women. Netball is the country's biggest female participation sport in the UK and elite-level players at some of the fittest athletes in sport.

I suggest she gets tickets for when England play New Zealand in November, or at least watches the 2018 Commonwealth final on YouTube when England beat Australia. Either will bear little resemblance to her memories of school netball. By the way, I'm a man. Always good to provide balance. yours, Andrew in Bristol. Thank you, Andrew.

I consider myself chastised. I know exactly what you mean about the Commonwealth Games. I did watch it. I've also seen live netball at the Echo Arena in Liverpool. But I still say, just to be absolutely honest about it, if I were a young girl today, I would always pick the football option over netball. I just, no shade on netballers.

I just think football is a better game. I'm sorry. There we are. A controversial note on which to end this podcast, which is roamed far and wide. My favourite bit was our incredible discussion about that film, which both of us had seen really weirdly on the weekend. But neither of us could get the title of it right. I just need the title or what point it was trying to make.

But we watched it. One hour and 38 minutes of both our lives, we'll never get back. Right. One day we'll share a boiler. Join us tomorrow. Jane and Fee at Times, dot radio. Who's got some good guests this week, haven't we? Elizabeth Day, tomorrow. Yes.

Elizabeth Day, talking about one of us, which has gone straight into the Sunday Times bestseller list. Well, we really liked that book, didn't we? We do, yeah. We thought it was great. And also, we've got... Joanna Lumley. We've got Joanna Lumley.

And we've got... Anne Cleaves. And we've got... Gosh, we have got... This is Ladies' Week. Andrew, will you be okay? Let's big up the women. Oh, yes, absolutely.

Well, we've talked about the Archbishop of Canterbury. I mean, it doesn't get any bigger unless you're actually the monocle god. She's right up there. Yeah, she's not if you don't really believe. Oh, you don't ruin everything. Have a good evening, afternoon or night. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4, on Times Radio.

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