Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Freud will have a lot to say about this... (with Harriet Tyce)

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

What a day it is! And what a time to be alive in this wonderful city of London! The sun is shining and Jane's tube driver has got us all in the mood. Jane and Fi are back in more familiar surroundings to discuss all the important stuff - matching underwear, habitual idiocies, whether you should lock a bathroom door around loved ones, the power of the wet wipe, and the lacklustre nature of Shreddies. Plus, Harriet Tyce, crime writer and Traitors contestant, discusses her new book ‘Witch Trial’.Our next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute.Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.You can listen to our 'I'm in the cupboard on Christmas' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1awQioX5y4fxhTAK8ZPhwQIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Have we started, Eve? Yeah. Oh, right. Well, let's, should we do Complates Corner already then? Should we get that going first of all? Well, shall we? Yeah. Just briefly acknowledge.

So yesterday was a bit of an experiment. We were doing a pilot visualization, which was also your audio podcast from yesterday. So the pilot bit meant that you couldn't see it, because it wasn't actually going up on the YouTube. It was for internal digestion only. But you could hear the audio. And thank you for bearing with us. Ironically, I think the visuals are absolutely fine, which you'll never get to see.

But a couple of you have noted that the audio is different, and you're not happy about it. No. Well, Pauline is in Melbourne, and I wonder whether it just affects, she's such a long way away, that that might have an impact. It just lost something over the many oceans it travelled. She writes,

It's hard to imagine how one could successfully sabotage Eve's mollifluous tones but your new working arrangements have done it she sounded like an extra from finding Nemo right Pauline also says I regularly lunch with my 87 year old literature teacher 55 years after she taught me in the last year of secondary school

I just am finding this so bizarre yeah I think that's great well so so bizarre so it was an experiment yesterday and we're here for your we're here for your comments absolutely I mean we are going to do something about how Eve sounded because Pauline wasn't the only person who didn't like that. Caroline didn't like it either.

Tech needs a lot of work, she says. Well, it was a little bit like the call that goes out when a small child has vomited in Isle 7 of a large supermarket. It was that kind of... It did seem to come from far, far away. So maybe we'll get Eve to sit in the studio with us and be properly mic-tuck. Would you like to, or were you actually quite happy to be away?

I actually used to do the tannoy announcement when I worked at Tesco. Well, that's when you went viral. Yeah. Have we ever actually explained how you managed to go viral? Do you need to? Yes. Come on, let's hear it. I went viral for doing the tunnel announcement at Tesco.

There was a video of it. Yeah, but why? I don't know why. It was bizarre. Was it because your voice is just super lovely? Some people said she sounds like she smokes hundreds of six a day. Some people were a bit mean about my own. Oh, I'm sorry.

No, right. What kind of things were you saying? Were you saying that a mop was needed in number seven? No, I said, good evening. This is a customer announcement. We'd like to inform you that it's 10 o'clock and this store is now closed. Okay. Well, that was that it?

Please make your final selections. The final selection. The final selection is still closing. Thank you. And were you working from a laminated sheet? Or was that off your own back? There was a laminated sheet. By the time I left that place.

I knew it by heart. You still do, don't you? done it still do well look we we would like to keep eve firmly on mike so we'll have her in the room with us seriously now in the supermarket it's all automated the announcement they've lost they've lost their charm because it's just some discordant voice that comes up in my tesco saying that there's a van at the back gate and one of those intriguing yeah the one that you know does mean a spillage of some description pooling in aisle number six that someone needs to attend to. But I don't detect a proper live human on the end of it all.

I think they're all recorded. I'm just trying to think. I don't go to Tesco's. No. Well, I take it in turns, you know this. I go to my smart supermarket. And then I go to a more financially amenable one. Right.

And I think in Aldi, there is still a real person behind the microphone. and in wait-traces they just come and tell you in person well they have like a sort of of town cry I don't they yeah I mean they don't know anything as communal or municipal as a Tanoi announcement

I've given a handwritten note very much in thermal raised text I always love it when you get a funny tube driver and they are still very very funny because we do still have the drivers on the tube and there's one on the Jubilee line

who does get very irate when it's busy and people are trying to squeeze onto the tube and he will say things like can you read it's a minute until the next one look up and read it's a minute till the next one and somebody kind of shuffles off i don't blame them squeezing them i don't blame i don't blame them at all i had um i had a tube it's funny because most often they don't say a word and then sometimes you get a driver who's just in a good mood or just someone who likes to just slightly overplay their part and as I do it regularly so I'm not criticising them. I had a great

one the other day. He just welcomed us all on board a pretty routine at Hammersmith and City Line train into Kings Cross by just saying what a great morning it was and what a time to be alive in the wonderful city of London and here are some of the attractions and just listed the stations. It would have just made your day.

It was fun! Although most people completely ignored him, I noticed. But I thought, you know, good for you mate. I mean there are worse places to live and they're just worst times to be alive. Sometimes we just need to acknowledge we're fortunate people. I'm only saying this because I'm reading Ellie Griffiths who's on the programme tomorrow and it's another of her time travelling things and gone back to Victorian times and honestly feel. The tubes busy. Well, didn't even, not only were they busy. They hadn't even been invented. So it was just you had to get around in a

carriage if you were fortunate and of course most people didn't have access to a carriage. But it's just smelly and you've got the old potty under the bed and all that stuff I just couldn't know it's just we're better off with our flush mechanisms we really are we're living in a flush and forget society and we owe the Victorians a lot I know

can I just say that I think that the time has passed at which we need on every train journey a reminder to take our personal possessions with us have you have you ever well yes have you have you left stuff there

I lost a really good pair of glass on a train. But was it a personal pair of glasses or a very impersonal pair of glasses? You're right, they were my own. It's just, it annoys me every time, do you? You don't need the adjective personal possessions. No, you don't. Gosh, that's quite a hill to die on.

No, but I... Once it starts to annoy you, it just always really annoys you. Yeah, okay. They need to rewriting. I mean, they shouldn't say, help yourself to anybody else's belongings. If you see something that appeals to you, grab it. No, but also, you know, my... Everybody's belonging should mean something to

to them. You shouldn't be wasting time, carting around stuff that you care nothing about. That's just my little tough on these worth. Please get Eve a chair in the studio, says Lucy. Well, we're thinking about it. It's all very much. I mean, we like to welcome you to the weeds of our production process. And this is very definitely going to improve. And can we just speak about ourselves

for once? We, we, we surprisingly, enjoyed the whole visualization thing more than we thought we were. We're built it up in something terrifying. Yeah, and it was actually quite good fun. And can I say quite a challenge for me, and I need a new challenge at this time in my life. Plus, it was lovely to have the makeup sloshed on. What was challenging about it?

What was challenging? Well, because I felt I had to concentrate a bit more. Oh, did you know? I see, I've lost concentration already. Okay, well, I tell you what, that's a ringing endorsement for our stage stage news, isn't it? Very much so. Anyway, it hasn't happened yet. When it does become visual, fully visualised and official,

we'll obviously let you know about it because you'll be able to see it on YouTube. Yeah. And we are going to have to put a little bit of thought into... Oh, how we look? No, we will. And we've just got to slightly work out. And maybe we could just do it on a day, kind of on a Monday.

You wear a skirt on a Tuesday. I'll wear a dress. We cannot turn up as we often do. I mean, look at us today, Jane. We just look like we're from a box set. And we don't do it on... purpose. We have both got a beige, slightly floaty sleeved shirt on. Jeans and some dark jeans and some

caramel coloured boots and a caramel coloured belt. We do look like we have dressed from the same wardrobe. Well, we will have different pants on because mine is the matching set. God knows what's going on underneath that. But nobody's going to see that. It's not that kind of show. It's a pick and mix. But yeah, okay. Well, let's talk about it.

I really do feel today I was saying earlier, it was very much everybody got their blazers out for the commute this morning because it definitely, the temperatures are weirdly high and going to be even higher tomorrow. And it looks as though we might in the UK have left the worst of winter behind. Have I gone to? No, I hope so. So it's 17 degrees in the south of England tomorrow, and it is sunny.

Weird. I'm not here tomorrow, actually. You're going to do the podcast with Eve. I'm doing a charity function. Oh, okay. It makes me feel really bad. I was about to roll my eyes, but now I've just got to look supportive. Oh, well done.

I am hosting a conference about the resettlement of offenders, which is being run by the Saheli Stewart Trust, which is an amazing philanthropic trust, which gives out grants to organisations, doing all kinds of things. I met them through ADFAM because they were a supporter of that charity. And tomorrow is lots of... sonnots of grantees getting together to share their wisdom and experiences about how to get recidivism down.

Still love that word. Decidivism. And that's reoffending rates down. And just get us a bit more kind of, you know, on target with the resettlement of offenders. Because we've got one of the worst reoffending rates in the Western world. People just getting out of prison and not being able to stay out of prison. And we've done quite a lot of interviews, haven't we, on that? that subject. The figure that always stays with me is that the grant that you get for when

you leave prison to find your first overnight accommodation is £80. Sometimes it's £85. I mean, in a city centre now, anywhere in the UK, that doesn't buy you anything, does it? And then that's it. So what are you meant to do? Where are you meant to go? If you don't have family or kind friends, what is that re-entry to the civilian world like? If you've been through the care system, perhaps you won't have a safe place to go. So lots of people who've been through the care system do, unfortunately, end up in prison. So it's a very good thing to be doing. Yes. So, you know, hopefully also we'll be able to bring some of those people who are on the conference day tomorrow onto the program and the airwaves.

Talk about things a bit more. So you will be doing stuff with Eve, yes? Well, it looks like it, yeah. Nobody tells me these things are not. Okay. Is that all right, Eve? By my answer. To be honest, I completely forgot.

You forgot. Okay, can I just suggest that everyone sends lots and lots of emails? Please send emails overnight if you've never sent an email before. Now is your chance. Send an email and just fill tomorrow with wonder. Doing stuff together tomorrow. We're doing stuff together? Doing stuff with Jane.

Okay, great. There's slight attitude that you look like one of my children when they want to tell you something. And I just say, just a moment. And they say, oh, I won't tell you then. That was exactly what you were. I tell you what, Eve, you just had the pointy finger. Flibeinac.

Get all this at home. No, I just, I feel that I'm sharing my burden. This is great. You know what, you'll spread the burden all over the office if you're not careful. Your pointy finger is quite pointy. Well, and that's, well, but it's kept the kids in line at home. I'm now crossing my arms. I wonder if I have got a matching, but no, I haven't.

Oh, go on. You must have. I don't think I've ever owned. God, a matching bra. No. No. I just find this absolutely bizarre. But I find your attitude really bizarre.

If people are out there, genuinely, you've never gone out the house with your knickers, not matching your bra. I just don't understand. So I properly, probably can't do it. And sometimes, just occasionally. When I come back from the swimming pool, Sometimes it goes a bit awry

because I just put something wrong in my bag and I don't have to get changed. Oh, Fee. It's just a bit, it's a little tiny thing. Everybody's got those kind of tics. Oh, 100%. And this isn't the worst of it to try and live with at all.

But I just find it immensely pleasing as well. I can see we have all got our tics. In fact, we had a really great email about the woman with the moisturiser on her hand. Oh yes, here we are. She refers to this as, it's not dissimilar this. It's from Joe in Cumbria.

I know that you always say where folk email from, I don't know why. Well, we say it because we like to place people, don't we? We certainly do. And also, because we've been amazed by the places that people are listening to us in. Yeah, and can I say rather touched. If you'd like a new thread, she says, on habitual idiocy. And actually, what you're referring to with your underwear lingerie habit, it's not

idiocy exactly. It's just something you feel a certain rigidity about. It makes me happy. It makes you feel more secure of a morning. Right. That's all it is. Well, I would say, if I don't have. have a certain number of bagels in the freezer, I genuinely start to panic. So same thing. It's a bit of a

comfort blanket thing. If I start coming into work wearing bagels, please, please tell me. Now really, Jane, you have to retire, whether you like it or not. Right. If you'd like a new thread on habitual idies, idiocy, says Joe, the things we do repeatedly that drive us nuts. Well, I do this, she says, I moisturised my face in the bathroom before bed. Lovely. Yeah. Lovely. Yeah. Yeah. Then I can't open the bloody bathroom door as I moisturise the do nightly, she says in capital letters. So why aren't you leaving the door open and just moisturising whilst it's a jar? Well, that's one possible solution for you, Joe,

but we don't know who she lives with. And she might be keen to keep out intruders. I always used to lock the door when I was having one of my archers omnibus nights in the bath. And all that would mean was that the children just came in anyway, banged on the door. I had to get out of the bath to let them in. You know that children's book where Mrs. Elephant tries to have a peaceful bath?

I don't know that one though. Did you know that book? Oh, Eve knows it. What's it called? Five Minutes Peace. Thank you. I got in before Eve did. We don't want to hear her voice.

Even though she did go viral in Tesco's. Was it Tesco's? Yes. Every little helps. Five minutes piece. I thought it was the best from a parent's perspective of children's book because this elephant just wants, she just wants to have a bar. and she wants the kids to just get out of it just for a bit and they just keep coming in.

What do they do? They bring instruments, don't they? And they want to talk to her and, yeah. Yeah, they bring all sorts. And she's, the bath, I remember it looking very relaxing the bath. So it was steamy and bubbly. Yeah. And the kids just kept coming in and she could not get five minutes piece.

She just couldn't get it. No, it's a great book. And it's very well illustrated. Anyway, we're back to Joe who's in Campia. So we're not going to comment on whether or not. people lock their bathroom door routinely when only their nearest and dearest are in the house? Well, I always do because ours swings open. It's not fitted very well. So if I don't lock it, then it will swing open. And it's on the landing. So actually, if somebody comes in from the street,

you'd have a pretty straight view into the bathroom. So it's dangerous not to lock that bathroom door. And I do think, so I know that lots of parents had locks on their bedroom doors when their kids were much younger. I suppose I can see the sense. So they could have private time. Yes. Yes. And I don't know. Well, that doesn't seem unreasonable. It doesn't, but I always found that I always found that a bit spooky, actually. I don't, I don't know why. I can't. Because there's no, There should be no difference, should there, between feeling completely okay to lock the bathroom door, but not feeling completely okay to lock the bedroom door.

I mean, I think it was probably worse for your kids to walk in on the bedroom scene than it would on the bathroom scene. Yeah, you're not wrong there. So I'm wrong. Yeah. Well, Freud would have a lot to say about this. We will have people with views. Please do share them, Jane and Fee at times.

combedo. I do remember vividly, and every parent will remember this. You know, you're up in the morning and you're trying to do your kind of, let's just be honest about it, your morning combustibles. in the lavatory facility. Ablutions. Your ablutions. And there'll be a toddler.

And I can see both of my children just standing in the corner of the room with their arms folded, a bit like me earlier, just kind of going to go. Well, how long is this going to? I want my shreddies. You just think that's back

to the whole five minutes piece thing, isn't it? You just do crave a certain amount of privacy, which is, you don't have it. No. Not quite some time. Did you really have shreddies? Very, very overrated cereal. Well, I didn't,

but the children went through a phase of eating shreddies. I've never liked shreddies. No. I think shreddies were definitely one of those cereals where you really couldn't do more than two mouthfuls. I mean, you'd properly put the work in if you eat shreddies for breakfast.

You can just eat lard the rest of the day if you've had shreddies and drink yourself. I didn't like them at all. No, I mean, I can't quite see the joy in a shreddy. But hey, isn't it wonderful? We're all different, aren't we just? And also, you couldn't really then do very, very bog standard Wednesday baking with shreddies, could you?

Nearly every other type of cereal, lens itself to just pouring it into a cupcake holder with some setting agent and that's an activity. You've created a whole bake-off. Would it be possible to lag your boiler with shreddies? Maybe. I don't know. Maybe. Actually, Joe says in response to the new mums, you've been mentioning struggling with sleepless nights, I too had a child that had better things to do than sleep. However, it's turned into a massive resilience boost through the vagaries of the menopause. If I survived off three hours broken sleep for two solid years, I can survive my tired days now without also having to spend my days purying the shit out of carrots,

as she puts it here. And that's Joe's view of the early days of motherhood. Wouldn't be mine, of course. I couldn't think of anything and I enjoyed more than purying. No, Joe, I mean, I'm so with you. Good luck with the vagaries of the menopause. We can't even, well, I can't even remember the menopause. I certainly have no idea that I'm still going through it. Let's not go there. When do you, when does anybody know when they're out the other side? Well I think our generation may never know because our generation will be the first that probably stays on HRT if we're taking it. Not everybody needs to. For you know kind of 30 years possibly. That's weird, isn't it? It is a bit weird.

I'm, well I don't know. I mean, do you know when you're through it? Some people don't even know when they're having it. You do meet people like that, don't you? Just as you come across women who say, I've never had a period of pain and you think, hmm. Are they using the voice? I never have to be a pain. You see, they're lucky. Okay. But then they're not lucky

because they've got voices like that. No, that's very unfortunate, isn't it? All the way around. The short film category at the BAFTAs was won by a director and writer who had done a film

about endometriosis and we're booking them, aren't we? Oh well, endometriosis is an absolute curse. It's bloody awful. Literally a curse. Yeah. It's the curse of the curse.

Yes. So that's going to be one to listen to if you've never had a period, pain, lucky you. Boarding schools comes in from Chris. Dear Jane and Fia, I went to five different primary schools, Dad and the RAF. For secondary school, I went to a boarding school, along with my best friend, and I loved it.

It was quite relaxed and a mixed school with day pupils as well. Five of us still meet up twice a year and stay in London for fun, etc. I do feel, however, that I left home at 11. I didn't like going home for the holidays. It was always a different house and a different place, and it was difficult to make friends. Although my experience was good, I would never have sent my own children away to school. Finally, Dawn French spent a few terms at our school.

Absolutely love listening to you. Have done since the beginning. Oh, that's a life sentence, Chris, isn't it? I think we met Chris, didn't we? We had met Chris. We had in Cheltenham. But I was just very, very struck by that. Because I don't think we've had that element of the boarding school story told

that actually boarding school can be so secure and fun and a really good place. for kids whose home life is movable, difficult or whatever. I'm not saying yours is difficult, Chris, but to go home to a different place every time, you can see how you slightly dread the holidays. I imagine that's entirely plausible, particularly as some of those boarding school holidays will be in very long as well, wouldn't they?

God, I mean, 10 weeks, 11 weeks in the summer. Yeah, unless, because back in the day, I don't know how, to what extent people would travel in the holidays to see their mates, I don't know. Obviously, quite easy in the burbs to go. get together with these chums. Well, very much so. And actually, having been a day girl at a boarding school, I ended up with most of my friends outside school. I didn't, you know, because we did see each other every day during the holidays. And the idea that I would travel to somewhere to go and see a friend

who was in the boarding part of the school was just difficult. I mean, until you're about 16. It was just hard to bomb around the country. So, you know, very different experience. Keep your thoughts coming on this Because I do think that kind of The sort of adolescence and childhood I had Which was just so You know there were no changes Apart from one house move and one school move

And I do know what to change It's quite rare Yeah and I envy you that actually Because I mean I'm sure that there are downsides to it I'm not saying I'm not sure there were really It's about you But well I think for some people

There may be surely A case that you haven't really built up resilience to finding yourself in new situations. I don't think that that's you at all. Well, I don't know because I don't like change really, I guess. But I don't think you were completely knocked off course when you did finally have to leave home. But honestly, I think for people who've got either, you know, divorce and separation in their childhood or a lot of moves around and stuff like that, the idea that you could walk onto the same stage your entire childhood and adolescence and you knew whether.

the furniture was and you knew what the theatre looked like, apologies for using that word, I still can't say it, I'll die not be able to say it. Well, you can say it. I think it's remarkable. I think it's just such an enviable experience, actually. I wonder if it, well, people can let us know what they think about this, whether, you know, a slightly, not rackety childhood, but a childhood with lots of changes and adaptations that you were forced to make, is that a better preparation for?

adult life with all its many challenges. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, there are some interesting statistics, particularly about divorce and the numbers of people who come from a divorce family who then get divorced, which I think probably tells you that it's not always the case

that you learn by your parental mistakes forward slash experiences. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't know whether, I think it's a very difficult thing to create something completely different in your adult life to what you had as a child. Well, yeah. And those people who overcome all sorts of adversity

and perhaps were treated really badly as children can and do go on to create lovely, cozy, happy families and our brilliant parents. And they need 17 medals. Well, they don't get them. No. Because they've not, you're absolutely right, they've not got the template. No.

So they're doing it blind. And they've overcome it all. And I think you're right. I don't think we acknowledge it as much as we should. Flip-flops. Should we do running in flip-flops? This is very much a public health announcement. Here we go.

It comes in from Sophia, who says, listening to your podcast and the chat about flip-flops in the airport, I can confirm they are indeed dangerous to run in. In the early 2000s, I was living in Liverpool, having attended Paul McCartney's Fame School, Leeper, affectionately known at the time by other students as the Liverpool Institute of Pretentious Arholes. Well, so I believe.

So presumably it's the performing arts. It is very much performing arts. In the summer I graduated, I was working in the esteemed Philharmonic Hall as an usher in the evenings. As a performing arts graduate, I managed to get myself a temp job, dressing up as a big cartoon character, forward slash mascot, for a car finance company. Oh, God. In Prescott. Is that... Prescott?

Prescott. What's that? Prescott. Prescottland. Prescott, Laird. Well, is that the home of John Prescott? Oh, Sophia, just, I'm assuming you mean Prescott. Okay. Which is in the Merseyside area.

Yes. Well, there we go. I've deferred to your better knowledge. In my changeover from one job to the next, I was in rather a rush and legging it for the bus to get to the hall for the evening shift. I slipped on gravel whilst in flip-flops and grazed the front of my ankle, not sure what to call that bit of the anatomy. me. I hobbled into work

and the St John's ambulance team patched me up and I carried on with my night. The next day I got myself back to Prescott and dressed in my stuffed cartoon outfit on a rather hot summer's day. As the day wore on, my grazed area increased in pain and by the end of my shift when I changed the whole area was

very inflamed and a little bit set. Queer a trip to the walking centre. Dressings changed every day for a week and a phone call to the temp agency to explain that I could not continue. with the role. And Sophia tells us I also had to strip on a plane when my 11-week-old did an explosive poo

just as the plane was taking off and I just had to sit there waiting for the seatbelt sign to go off as milky poo soaked through the outfits. She's nearly seven. I still travel with at least two outfit changes for both of us. Sophia, that's a very, very detailed email on both experiences and I'm very, very sorry indeed. I think Sophia is a woman who might be wedded to her wipes. Yes, and listen, let's, I know that environmentally somewhat unsound, but let's just hear it for the wet wipe. Yeah. I mean, flipping heck, how do we cope with that? As long as you don't flush it away, I think. Oh, no, we should we just need them. Ball it up and dispose of

it responsive. Yeah. And just in case, Sophia thinks I've gone completely mad, it's because Prescott didn't, didn't have a space before the word and, so it just looked like it was one of those places that was going to trip me up. No one's blame me. you darling. Made a perfectly reasonable error in extremely stressful circumstances doing this podcast. This is high octane showbiz. I think we sometimes forget that. We need to give ourselves credit. Now, have you seen or are you watching, and I'm interested in other people's views on this, The Lady. I watched the first episode last night. Oh, that's interesting. So I've done, I think I've done three now. What do you think? Good acting.

I think good acting I'm slightly struggling to watch Sarah Ferguson Yeah I think that's troubling isn't it Yep the stuff that we now know And everything that's going on in the real world Around Sarah Ferguson And Andrew What did we decide to call him yesterday?

Denies all allegations Yep Him just forget the other Ridiculous hyphenated surname Denies any wrongdoing or do for us So I'm struggling a bit to see through that and am I quite enjoying it?

I'm wrestling with myself a bit here. I don't think I am. No, I kind of I admire it. There's a really funny bit in the episode I watched last night where they have a newsreader reading something that just wouldn't happen sometimes I do get angry because this is a very expensive

production and they had a news reader reading something that legally would be so unlikely. In fact, illegal they just wouldn't happen. You think, why don't they do a bit more research in actual journalism and how the law works around it. Anyway, that's such a, you know, that's not really very interesting, but it's just an observation that really jolted me yesterday when I was watching it. The actress who's playing Sarah Ferguson is the actress who is she's donating her money to a charity for playing the part. So it's not like

she's not alive to the issue. Well, how amazing of her to do that. And, I mean, let's just pause for a moment. How bluming, irritating that must be for her. She's done a job. That's true actually. That she was being, you know, that meant that she couldn't do other paid work. And because Sarah Ferguson has been proved to have kept in touch with a convicted paedophile and taken her daughters to lunch with him. She ends up losing. She ends up, you know, good on her for giving it to charity.

But that's not fair, is it? No, I mean, it's a, after the young actress playing Jane Andrews, who is the dresser to the woman we now call Sarah Ferguson when she was the Duchess of York. I think that's a great performance. I find it quite hard to watch because you know how. it ends and it's all and she's still around this woman she's served her prison term and is now out and about again um there's something about i the focus in this show it's obviously about her is about that rarity a woman who's committed a murder and there aren't there just aren't that many of them

and that's why those who do do it get a much more attention than men who murder and um i think we were being invited to pass judgment on this quite unhinged, vulnerable woman who then carries out a heinous act of violence, I should say. But I wonder whether, well, we just don't get that many dramas made about male killers because they are so much more common. I mean, we do get them, but we don't get... Well, we don't get true crime ones, but... You're right, they are out there, but coverage of...

Crime fiction is almost entirely dedicated to... the male aggressor and the female victim. Yeah. When in fact men kill more men than they kill women. But we don't talk about that much either. That hasn't got a salacious aspect. No, it's all very difficult area, isn't it? Anyway, if you are also struggling with

the lady whilst also watching it, I've got to be honest, let us know. Perhaps we'll discuss it with Scott Bryan or TV man tomorrow. Well, you absolutely should do. I'm not sure I'm going to watch anymore. I mean, I watched one last night. Quite a lot of it, because I was intrigued

that you had started it and felt it was of interest. But I do struggle with the meeting of fact and fiction. Yeah. And especially with the royal family. So I found elements of the Crown. I couldn't watch that series of the Crown where the Princess of Wales died because it just didn't seem right, Jane.

Sorry, but it just didn't seem right at all. No, well, that whole series is, God, you'd have to wonder what episodes they'd be making right now. Anyway. Are they going to make any more? No, apparently. They said not. No, apparently not.

No, okay. We've got a great guest on today's podcast, too. If you're a fan of the traitors, you will know Harriet, just by that one name, Harriet from the traitors. But in real life, she's Harriet Tice, and she is a million-selling Sunday Times best-selling novelist. Selling? Selling.

Selling it, darling. Sell it. What would have been a better way of saying that? You put it as, I mean, you can tell your underwear is coordinated. Okay, but unfortunately my sentences weren't matching. So she is our guest and her latest novel is all about two very young girls who are accused of murder through witchcraft, which is quite an extraordinary premise. So that's coming your way in a couple of moments of time.

Harriet Tice has sold millions of books. You might have read Blood Orange or a lesson in cruelty. They're informed by her time. as a barrister, and her latest book, Witch Trial, really taps into her knowledge of the courtroom. We meet two young girls who are on trial for murder, murdered by witchcraft, really, and the book unfolds around the members of the jury in the trial, too, notably Matthew, a surgeon whose outwards appearance suited and booted belies a muddled mind sinking into something less than ideal for the justice system. You might also know, Harriet, as the woman from traitors who saw through

Rachel and more on that in a moment. We were just talking about the nature of fame, Harriet. Would you mind sharing with us the Gaviscon, Anna. Because I think it just sums up something about this country. Very much our audience, Gaviscon. Yes, I had just picked up. I had nice lunch, and I had picked up some Gaviscon just to settle it down. And I was standing beside the bin opposite Borough Market to get rid of the cellophane.

And I was carefully chewing one while getting the other out of the little container. And a lady tapped me on the shoulder and said, Harriet, we love you. And I said, oh, I'm just having some gavis gone now. And she said, oh, no, you should work in HR. You were brilliant. Can we have a photo? And so I, you know, tried to stop chewing and get the chalk off my teeth and smile. So it's odd.

And it's, yeah, yesterday walking the dog, you know, you've got a bag of dog poo being called an icon. It's not normal. I do know how it doesn't get any better than that. You've beaked. You haven't peaked at all. I think what's extraordinary. We won't talk too much about traitors because it's not your job, is it? I mean, your job is now as a writer and a really successful writer.

But I wonder about your understanding of what would happen to you when you went on traitors. I don't think that there was any way of predicting it. There's no way really of knowing either what the experience itself will be like of being inside the game and being caught inside what is essentially a large-tail psychological experiment and how one will react to that on an emotional basis. But I'd say that afterwards, that is also unpredictable because what I didn't know in advance was how I would land with the public, whether people would like me, whether people would dislike me,

what people would think of what I'd done. And I mean, of course, you know, I lost my temper at breakfast that, you know, hideous phrase about cats and pigeons that's going to haunt me forever. You know, that led to a level of pushback. But I certainly didn't know that actually my actions would resonate with quite so many people, both young and old. I mean, it's a surprising level, you know, that I'm speaking to you now, but I'm also going to be talking to someone who normally interviews Love Island participants

who are, you know, people in their 20s who are the age of my children. And it seems to have cut across generations in a way that I simply couldn't have predicted. And while I knew the show was big, I also think I had an aspect of denial about what the recognizability would be like and how it would feel having people knowing my face. But, you know, at the same time, I know perfectly well that this is going to fade. You know, it's already started to fade and that as the months go on and as other TV shows come on, I'd say that. it's likely that I will be, if not forgotten, at least people will just be like, hang on, do I know her rather than your Harriet. So it'll be okay.

You'll be able to take the indigestion tablets of peace, Sarah. Everyone is lovely. I will say that, that everybody has been very friendly. It's always, it's always very nice. Good, good. There are similarities, having read your latest book, Witch Trial, with the setting, really, of traitors and the book, because we are in court, aren't we, at trial by jury, a place that you know very well as a former barrister. The similarity with the Traders House is just working out people's allegiances,

what you're going to say that might convert somebody watching all of those human reactions between each other. I mean, it is a big central part of a Venn diagram going on. I think I've always been interested in the idea of a jury. and I've written three, four novels before that, which have explored different aspects of criminal justice, the first three from the perspective of a barrister, the fourth, looking more at prison and the idea of punishment and redemption.

And so I think it was inevitable that at some point I would come to investigating a jury. I am very interested in what goes into the decision-making process and how would you have that cross-section of society arbitrarily chosen, it can lead to, you know, I think is a cornerstone of justice in our system and should be held onto. I mean, that's a slightly separate point, but I have always felt that those differing narrative perspectives are something that would be worth examination. And so that was why I chose to write about it in the book. I think it's also why I enjoy watching the

show. The coincidences between the book and the show were not intended, but clearly the themes are something that interests me, you know, both as a viewer and as a former lawyer. So I guess it kind of tied together that it's been part of an ongoing obsession of mine. Are you also very interested in the forces of evil? Because obviously, witchcraft lies at the heart of this. And as, you you explain, and we'll be very careful not to give away endings and ruin the book for people, but you explain right at the beginning, this is a murder trial of two very, very young girls who are almost believed to have frightened one of their schoolmates to death using the forces of witchery. Yes, and I never have done a Ouija board because I've always thought, what if it goes wrong?

and I have steered very clear of tarot cards until recently I only looked into them when I needed to research them for the book. I am generally a very rational person, but at the same time, I don't think there's any sense in messing things, messing with things that could go wrong. And having listened to a lot of uncanny, the Danny Robson podcast, where he, it's you want to believe, I think, is his line, that there is this sort of idea that it's quite nice to think it could be

true, but you don't want it to be true as well. So as a teenager, I steered really well clear of it. Friends of mine dabbled all the time and loved it, but I didn't think it was worth it. And if I read books about witches and the supernatural, I would end up so frightened that I couldn't sleep. And so I can't watch horror. I don't read books about it. And researching this book was, I frightened myself more than I should have done. But on the other hand, I hope that some of that fear might. I come through to frighten the reader as well. And I think that, you know, there are various explanations provided throughout the book as to what's happening. And what I like, I think, for me as an author, is it, is the fact that I play with the ambiguity is what's true, what isn't

true, what could have happened, what might not have happened. And, you know, that's for the reader to decide, really, because I'm not sure even I know. There is a theme of girls being mean to girls and you are a mum yourself. There is the death of a child at the heart of this. I always think that must be actually just incredibly, incredibly difficult to write. And we have interviewed writers who say that's the one place actually I can't go to. I didn't go there for very long and I didn't spend too much. I mean that there are a couple of chapters from the perspective of the bereave mother and I

tried not to spend too long in that place because I think it is too hard. It really is too hard. I mean, I'll make a confession here, which is that I have not read Hamlet, nor am I going to see it. Not because I don't hear extraordinary things about it, not because I don't think it, it sounds like an amazing book, but I just don't want to go there into that space and to read about that grief because I can, well, I don't want to imagine it. That's just it. And I think without suffering that loss, it's impossible. And I never want to suffer that loss.

I think in terms of the meanness overall, I mean, you know, I was a teenage girl and I was this in all girls' school for quite a while. And I think that there is nothing worse. I mean, if you put girls in Lord of the Flies, it would have been much more of a bloodbath, I think, but it would have been death by a thousand cuts rather than just punches. It's, that was hard enough actually to imagine in the book was the ostracizing and there's, I employ the use of the silent treatment as a weapon. And that, that felt bad enough actually. Imagining that was almost harder than imagining the curses and the supernatural aspects.

Because that thing where people just cut you off and will not speak to you is, is in my mind, one of the worst things that there is. is. And it is all there, isn't it, in the teenagers' lives now, in various forms, not Justin, I'm not going to go behind the bite sheds and smoke a cigarette with you. It is there on their phones. It lives with them. Constant, constant, constant. Yeah, which you recognize in the book. It's horrible. Why did you stop being a barrister? I had a baby. Basically, I mean, it was back in, thank you. I mean, this was back in 2004. I mean, I'd been at the bar. Never has a very short and non-elustrious career at the bar led to more discussion and books.

It's extraordinary how I've repurposed it. But I was nearly 10 years' call and I had a baby at the beginning of 2004 and I tried going back part-time because that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to work three days a week and it was impossible to develop any kind of practice and only to work three days a week.

And I was the primary carer for our children. And the criminal bar, legal aid, does not earn very much money. You know, it didn't then. And I think it's almost less now. So I would have had to pay childcare that was more than I would have been earning. And that seemed a bit silly, really, as a way of doing things. So it's another profession that has a fatal flaw in the system then, isn't it? Yes, it's completely impossible.

It's completely impossible to do it on a part-time basis. the amount of flexibility that's required because a big trial comes in, you know, a couple of days before and suddenly you have to go to Nottingham and stay in a travel lodge for three weeks while you do, you know, a big gun trial. It's great if you can drop everything, but if you can't drop everything, then there is no way forward. And I think that's why there's such a huge drop-off at the bar between, you know, recruitment at the junior level, which is almost at 50-50, you're almost hit more in favour. of women. But by the time you come to looking at the numbers for silk and the judiciary, there has been a huge, huge race of attrition. And I think it's because it is so hard to do it and actually deal with being the primary carer. And do you know whether a reform of that part of the system is

being included in the government's very comprehensive attempt to revive the whole criminal justice system? Do you know what? I don't know. And that's something I would be interested to look into. I have to say the reform I read about this morning, which was to stop there being a cap on the number of days that Crown courts could sit. And that's going to be expanded now, which is a good thing. And the criminal bar seems to be welcoming that. But the more days that there are trials in court, the more time that barristers will be expected to work. And thus, the more childcare that will be required. And the circle goes on.

It's an all-consuming job if you do it properly. Yeah, but then you've got, it's not just women, but mostly women waiting for their rape cases to come to court. So it's such a huge problem, isn't it? This is it. And I think in a way it's more important that justice is done, but I'm not quite sure what the solution is, really. You do seem quite passionate about juries, though.

I mean, I don't know whether we haven't had news of another government. You turned on the David Lammy idea of trying to have fewer trials with juries. but it's possibly something the government won't be doing now. But he did float the notion. And he floated the notion because he needs, you know, cases need to be heard. And I can see the logic. Again, it is going to cut the backlog. It will be cheaper.

And there is something to be said about making everything move faster. But the difficulty is that judges will also have their own bias. If you have 12 members of a jury or, you know, 15 as it is in Scotland, 12 members of a jury, that means you would hope, the board that people are going to weigh out each other's prejudices and everyone I know who has done jury duty has taken that responsibility incredibly seriously so it's it's it's still better I know that if I got nicked for shoplifting and that would be for me a catastrophic allegation you know I'm of good character I would not want to go into a magistrate's court and to be just done as part of a

of a cog turning I would want to be tried by a jury of my peers in the hope that that would mean that my good character was maintained. And I think anyone in my position would want that. It's still better than having, you know, one judge who might bring his or her own prejudices to the table and not have anyone to counter that. It's a cornerstone of our system. But yet, it's intractable because on the one hand, the system needs to move faster and more cheaply. But on the other, justice has to be done properly.

and people have to find a solution. I don't envy anyone who has to make decisions on how to make it work better. I'll tell you that. So you were very fortunate then that you could write because you really can write and your books are very successful. They are absolutely loved by readers. Did you know inside yourself that you had that talent when you decided to strike out? No, no, no.

I mean, I left because I had been, I mean, the reason that the, The day of the decision of leaving the bar was I was an Uxbridge magistrates court representing someone who'd bought a car for £2,000 in cash in a pub, and he tried to say he hadn't known it was stolen. And I said, well, do you want me to tell the court you're stupid? And he's no. And I said, well, in that case, you might need to think about this. And we had to wait for a pre-sentence report to be prepared on the day by a probation

officer sitting in court, which meant that it ran about four hours longer than it was meant, which meant that I was several hours late to get back and pick the baby up from the childminder. Fortunately, she didn't mind, but, you know, nurseries wouldn't operate like that. And I thought, I can't do this. And so for three or four years, I was, you know, a stay-at-home mum with a bit of an unresolved anger management issue because I was so frustrated creatively and professionally. And I mean, yes, I should have gone and looked for a job at the CPS or with a solicitor's firm. but also I felt it was important to be at home and I was just torn.

And I started an evening course in writing just as a way of finding a hobby, doing something else. And it was through that that I discovered that I could. I didn't know that I could. And it was a punt that started out just as a way of getting out of the house. What a punt it's turned out to be. you specialise in a real twist of an ending and we absolutely mustn't talk too much about the ending I love the ending of this book

I love the ending of this book yeah I've never come across anything like it because of the parts that are played with everybody involved in the scene and I'll leave it at that Harriet but did you and do you know the ending when you start out no not not generally I mean I might have a vague idea of what say the ending of Blood Orange I knew something was going to have

happened but I didn't know to whom and it was only two thirds of the way in that I decided who the who the victim of that particular circumstance would be my second book I thought I knew the ending and then the the last twist presented itself almost as I wrote the end I was suddenly like oh that that there this one I had thought was a more shall we say traditional narrative and that was the plan and then other layers just kept presenting themselves and then unfortunately I started to have fun

and I really was entertaining myself quite that I think my favourite line well I have two favourite lines in the book one is that Fleabag was the worst thing to happen to ministers and the second is that you do not in fact look like Eve Marie Saint in on the

waterfront and I really that that was a lot of fun to write Is that a reference to Lloyd Cole and the commotions? Yes, rattlesnakes. Great songs. Isn't it? It's wonderful.

It's one of the songs. Yeah, it is. I think I listen to that on repeat coming back from a school skiing trip at the age of 13. It was the only thing that still worked on my Walkman because the rest of the tape had got a little bit. They were such a good band. Yeah, they are. Happy days, happy memories. Are you going to do Bake Off?

There's a rumor that you are. Well, I just made it up. I mean, I like baking. I have applied in the past to bake-off because I, you know, I always thought it lit rather fun. But actually, I think after my recent foray into reality TV, I'm not sure I can handle the pressure. And I... But also, Perrott, do you think that there's a kind of Bilderberg group of TV producers that meet once a year and say, well, have this person on all of them?

We won't have them on any of them. Would you be allowed to? I mean, I think that their most likely would be restrictions from the BBC as to what one could put. participate in, but also I feel that there is something about knowing when it's time to leave the party. I think that's a phrase I've used before. I think that my experience on traitors went surprisingly well and that any stuff that I regret, I have managed, you know, we've dealt with it because, you know, honestly, I defy anyone not to lose their temper under that level of pressure. But I also think that, you know, what I do is I write books. I sit at home in my pyjamas making things up.

you know, scarf Gavis gone beside the bins. And I think that it's been lovely to come back into the world of books. And this is what I enjoy and this is what I know. So I think bake off. I might make the old cake for my kids. But now they're grown up. You know, there's much less demand for baking. You know, exactly.

Harriers, it's a real pleasure to meet you. Thank you very much for coming into Times Towers today. This has come in actually from Francesca, who says it's really good to hear Harriet chatting about this subject you can't work part-time at the criminal bar i'm a criminal barrister and went on eternity leave between 2015 to 2021 to have my children the only plus side is we are self-employed so i can take the school holidays off yes yes well good luck and and i admire very much anyone who manages to make it work and i think it will be at a great cost to to self i i didn't have very much i didn't have very much

the wherewithal mentally to do it. And while it's something I've regretted at the same time, I know my limitations. So, you know, wigs off to anyone who does make that work, really. I, you know, I admire you greatly. Yeah, but we definitely do need women to be in court at all levels, don't we? No, no, I agree. Because so often women are the victims in court. Yeah.

You need to feel that you are amongst at least some of your peers. Yeah, that's right. And just as the jury is important to have a balance, I feel that the entire courtroom should be a reflection of the society in which we live. That's Harriet Tice and Witch Trial is out now. Can I just squeeze in this from Sue? Squeeze away. She's in Teesdale.

Where's that? Teesdale. Can we look that up? I know people think we're obsessed with locations. I think they're important. She describes the conditions there as soggy. Mind you, she says that could be anywhere in the UK. Not today, Sue.

The sun is, well, but the sun's sort of out in a half-hearted. fashion. The sun's out but it's still got a coat on. As I moisturise my dry winter skin with the first thing to hand, not conditioner, etc. like some, I was reminded of a tip fee shared during the COVID years. She had sprayed the inside of her mask with a little bit of Ombrose Salé, Hawaiian Tropic or something else, which transported her to golden shores and freer times. It was Hawaiian Tropic? It was Hawaiian Tropic, was it? I vaguely remember that myself. Well, you've kept hold of that little tip, Sue. Well done. The aloeuvre. Vera Afterson has been sitting in my bathroom cabinet for over a year waiting for freedom.

And this is entirely due to my cat, Toby. Now Toby is a venerable 21 and a half years of age. Whoa. If you can beat that, contact the pod. She creaks on, she's a lady called Toby, we pass no judgment. She creaks on, amazing the vet, enjoying her food and her treats, demanding we put the heated blanket on and light the fire, which I do with my husband's support.

But the downside is we have the time, the health, and enough money for a holiday. We just can't leave her for more than a couple of days with kind friends popping in. The upside is we have to go away separately. Find any excuse. And use it. Please, you're playing my part there. We do have different interests and different tales to tell. My husband is 62.

He's done walking and camping with a full backpack, whereas I'm just starting. So, says Sue, the moisturiser both made me feel better and worse, as I really want to be putting it onto sun-kiss skin, not huddled under my dressing gown. Well, there's a lot in that email, Sue. You've given us plenty of food for thought. But, I mean, I wonder how many other people are at home, not because they really want to be,

but because their elderly cat just hasn't popped its clogs. Well, I feel sorry, really, really sorry. It's in County Durham, thank you. For people who can't leave their pets. because there just is that feeling that, you know, what would happen if whilst you were away. And, I mean, the truth of the matter is you'd see out your holiday, but you would feel bad about it.

Well, the cat couldn't contact you, could it, to say it was handling. No. But surely your cat sitter would let you know. I think they'd let you know, but would you come back? I mean, I love my pets. You know I love my pets, but I wouldn't come back from a holiday. They would just have to wait and wait. I've done the seven days.

Let's just be really practical about this. If the cat had passed away. Yes. And gone a little stiff. What's the... What do you do? Well, I think it's okay. We're going to...

You're the cat sitter. What's your responsibility? Well, you just wrap them up in kindness and a towel. Not a good towel. Ponks was with us for a while before he made it to the vets for his cremation. And... You know, he was, I mean, he was dead, Jane, so he was okay. So there wasn't anything that we could do.

No, no, I know. And he was in the front room. Yes. And all wrapped up, ready to go. And then about a week later, he went. You had him in the house for a week? It was, well, you remember this. It was the first week that we started work here.

Oh, my God. It was the first day that we started this job. And it was like the universe saying, don't you dare go back to work full-time. So Punks died on the Monday and the boiler broke on the Wednesday. It was a very, very cruel week. Well, in some ways, but, you know, it's not been all that bad here. No, no.

But I just didn't have time. I didn't have time to take him to the vets and sort all of that out in the manner in which I would have been able to do when I was working part-time. Part of me wishes I'd never stop. I know. Part of me wishes you had never. Thank you, Fee.

Oh, what a good idea. Oh, thank you. God, that's production. One of our lovely correspondents did write in because she wanted to know, I think it was Joe from memory. Can we seek this out? She just wanted a quick reminder of what the... Yes, it is, it's Joe. Please put me out of my misery and tell me the name of the M&S cleaning product you love.

It is green tea and bergamot disinfectant. It's lovely. It is super. It is super. Absolutely soper. You've got a cat carcass in your home. It's just the thing. Right, Eve and I will be with you tomorrow.

And I'll see you on Thursday. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times radio. The jeopardy is off the scale.

And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.