Off Air... with Jane and Fi - 'Garvenomics' (with Melinda French Gates)

Episode Date: April 14, 2025

Fi's off all this week, so The Janes are reunited! They chat 'Threads', Jon Hamm, weight loss drugs, and 'Garvenomics.' Plus, philanthropist Melinda French Gates discusses her book 'The Next Day' - her experiences of the transitions she’s been through in her life. Send your suggestions for the next book club pick! If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I mean look, I've already got unpopular opinions. God knows what my opinions are going to be like in nearly 30 years time. Oh I can't wait. If I'm spared, I expect I'll have all sorts of opinions. We're just going to mic you up Sunday Times when you subscribe with Google. Stay well informed on news, politics, business, culture and sport wherever you are, with the latest stories and live updates on the Times app and website. Don't miss out. Visit thetimes.com forward slash subscribe with Google to claim your offer today.

18 plus, new customers only. Offer ends midnight April the 14th. T's and and sees apply. Welcome to Off Air with the Jaynes, because Fee's away and it's a good job she's away's away Jane because I've got news about the post-apocalyptic horror show that is Threads that was on the BBC all those years ago the post-apocalyptic the nuclear war drama set in Sheffield. Fee can't bear me talking about it and there is news about it. I can't wait to hear the news Jane can you talk about it at length please? Well I'll just reference the fact that the people the

production company behind Adolescence is now going to have a go at Threads. Are they going to remake it? They're going to remake it. Wow. I know. Will it continue to be in Sheffield? Well the implication was yes. Good. Adolescence also filmed in Sheffield. There we are. Sheffield based production company at the High School List. I mean I do know a lot about this. Can I just say I'm really worried about them taking the snooker away from the Crucible. I didn't know that was happening. Yeah I heard it

on Times Radio this weekend. Oh right sorry God, on message Mandy already. Yeah exactly, also I read it in my digital subscription. Have you seen the new, the new wonderful offering on the times.com? No no it's pretty, the new the new, what do you call it? The new interface. The new interface is good. Yeah. Okay, that's enough now. All right.

We rely on Jane for Smut and Malarkey, so have you got any to bring? Yeah, well, I would just say if Threads isn't your thing. And it isn't, post-apocalyptic dramas aren't for everyone. I do have some good, very racy new television that I've been enjoying. Your Friends and Neighbours on Apple+, which is a new Jon Hamm drama. He basically plays a kind of another sort of Don Draper character, but without the misogyny or the sort of complicated backstory and, you know, identity. and it's absolutely brilliant he's a sort of hedge funder who his life sort of tanks and there's just a lot of extremely it the Guardian review described it this morning as white lotus back from holiday

and that's basically what it is but it's also just a lot of John Hamm having quite a lot of hot sex and so it is John Hamm and it's John Hamm who I like he is my hashtag number one crush. Is he? Yeah, oh yeah. And I've interviewed him a few times and he's lovely. Is he? Oh, which reminds me, some people's number one crush at the moment is James Nelson Joyce from This City Is Ours.

And guess he's going to be available. He's on this week. Is he? Yeah. And he is now... It's a good job Fee isn't here, isn't it? He's going to talk Liverpool. Or just 40 minutes. Her absence does give me the opportunity, that's all I'll say. Yeah. And he is now... Good job Fee isn't here, isn't it? He's going to talk Liverpool. Or for just 40 minutes.

Her absence does give me the opportunity, that's all I'll say. Yeah. And we can have a scouse off, which is brilliant. But also, he is now 6-1 to be James Bond. Wow. Yeah. So I think that would be... I mean, I think all that stuff about who's going to play James Bond is one of the most boring... I don't care normally, but if it's him, then I'd actually take an interest.

I really would. I might even go and pay to see a James Bond film. I think they're really boring on the whole. I know you're not supposed to say that, but just have. I quite like a Bond film. Right. Let's move on because you are here to agree with me and bottom me up, not to make life more complicated. The guest in this podcast is Melinda French-Gates. So

if you would like to know what's happened to Melinda since her divorce from Bill, then she'll tell you a little bit about that. She's also got a new foundation. She's pouring hundreds of millions of her dollars into pivotal ventures, Jane, which I'm sure you know is designed to put power into the hands of women and girls. And really important, I do think her philanthropy is incredible and inspiring, but I suppose if you've got, what, she worth like 38 billion? It's billions and billions and billions of dollars.

It's actually a number that my tiny, tiny brain can't compute. No, but she's putting it to good use and putting our best foot forward and and her book It's called the next day her book and it's about transitions You know things that happen She's 60 and you can't get to 60 without some shit happening to you quite a bit has happened to her I don't you know reading between the lines. I don't think Bill was the easiest man. That's what I'm just saying. It surprises me, given how successful he was. I will say one story that I do know in Bill Gates's favour.

Oh, God. And I might have told this story before. Apologies if you've heard this one before. I've only got four on rotation. Well, I've only got two. Someone I know was interviewing Melinda for a previous book and they were talking about domestic duties and how you split things up. And Melinda told this story about how one of their three kids, I think it was their son, was doing something very musical and wanted to go to a school that would bring all that would kind of bring all that out and the school was about a 45 minute drive from

their house so Melinda initially was the one who was doing all the driving, picking up and going back and forwards and whatever and eventually she sort of said, you know, Bill you could probably do some of the pickups and drop-offs so a couple of times a week Bill Gates ended up doing the pick up and drop-offs and apparently within a week the number of dads doing pick up and drop off because they'd seen him increased exponentially because well but you know it's really hard to say well actually I'm too busy to do pick up and drop offs but darling Bill Gates is doing pick up and drop off. You're not that busy are you? You're not that busy. No. Right, thanks for all the postcards

honestly we've had a lot of postcards. Honestly, we've had a lot of postcards. I can't really do justice. I'm just going to do a couple of dip-ins. Thanks to Maggie in Devon. She's enjoying the spring sunshine and she sent us a beautiful card of Pablo Picasso's De Femme Courant sur la Plage, which even I know means two ladies taking the sun on the beach. Thank you very much. That's about right, isn't it? And this is from Lizzie Hunter. Beautiful photograph of a greyhound, which I know people will absolutely love. Thank you very much for that.

Over the weekend, actually, some major news in our house. My dopey cat Dora has killed a mouse. Well done Dora. I know. But my nephew was staying over the weekend. He's nearly 15 and he spotted it initially. Actually, it was the dead creature was buried in a pile of his clothing, which I don't need to trouble you with that. And he did say to me that it was a rat, which I mean he does, he's inherited the family gene for exaggeration.

It was very clear, an extremely small field mouse. But nevertheless. We could get Dorota Birmingham though to kill some proper big ones. We could send her up there. She could have gone back with my sister to the Midlands and yes just done a shift. She was so exhilarated by this kill that she slept for about 17 hours. So was this a kind of love token to welcome your nephew? Quite possibly, yeah. She thought she'd done it, but she's never, never done it before. Well done Dora. You could say maybe we've not had it before. Well done Dora. Maybe we've not had mice before.

I am currently cat sitting for my friend and colleague in Walthamstow for the next 10 days. Name of cat? Ezra. I think you've done this before. I have done this before. How old is Ezra? 13. Oh.

Yeah. So not much mouse killing going on. What does Ezra do? Sits outside and looks at the birds. Looks at the birds. The birds kind of taunt him. When I'm the cat equivalent of, or the human equivalent of the cat equivalent of 13 years old, I'm going to be watching Bert. And that's if I'm lucky. He lies at the end of the bed now, instead of jumping on the bed to sleep on the bed,

because his hips aren't great. But he did come and watch a little bit of John Hamm with me last night. So he could appreciate John Hamm's dad bod as much as I could, you know, time figure of a dad bod. I'm not actually sure that's true. This is actually about bodies and I thought you might have a view on this because this is a listener actually weirdly called Melinda. Who knew we'd have two Melindas on one podcast? But thank you for this and taking me to task around something I said about a Zempic. So I'm just going to throw this one at you if you don't mind. Your comment around those taking it for quotes the wrong reasons because going down a few dress sizes isn't a health issue has infuriated me.

Why are these weight loss drugs the only medication we talk about in this way? A headache won't kill me and yet I've never heard anyone say that my minor headaches are not what paracetamol was invented for and we should save it for serious life-altering pain. Yes, water in a dark room may also do the trick but paracetamol is quicker and more efficient. Aren't weight loss drugs the same? Women with menopause symptoms, while hugely uncomfortable, are able to go about daily life. Without these being life threatening, does that mean we shouldn't be taking anything to make life a little easier? I haven't taken any of these drugs, but as a woman who's been obese and hated myself for it since I was around 8 years old, I have recently considered it. Can't we just be left alone to do as we all please?

Melinda, I'd really take your point and I'm really sorry if I've caused any offense. She just goes on to say I find the discourse around this enraging and baffling. Why is everyone, especially those not remotely affected by it personally, so invested in and opinionated about this topic in particular? It's a really interesting point and I think, I think, certainly it's a debate that rages on the 11th floor at times as well. We just published a lot of... I was about to say, let's just acknowledge this, that the the Azempic and Monjaro stories are pretty common and hugely widely read, aren't they? Absolutely, yes, because I think you know I think

everyone is fascinated sort of you know there's people who think well maybe I do it people who think I'm horrified by this people who think what are the health implications you know I think it is very interesting but what I have noticed and we've published a lot of stories what I have noticed is the sort of moral judgment aspect of it is diminishing very rapidly. Is it? Yes it really is because I think they're just becoming so widespread I think part of it is diminishing very rapidly. Is it? Yes, it really is because I think they're just becoming so widespread. I think part of it comes from people feeling that it's cheating, that somehow weight loss has to be about suffering and willpower and self-control when we know that for some people with some

conditions willpower will do nothing to help you. It's not, you know, this is something that can really help people. I think the other aspect of the sort of moral judgement is that, and I think this is undeniably true, access to the weight loss drugs unless you are clinically obese and have a great, you know, local sort of weight loss clinic that's getting into you. Unfortunately, it's the haves and have nots. As a piece that we were running this week, not about a Zempik, but sort of related to health outcomes, talks about people on the

minimum wage who are obese aren't buying a Zempik. You know, it's, it is often, you know, middle class and upper middle class people with a disposable income who perhaps have a stone or two to lose, they're the people who are buying it. And I suppose it was those people I had in mind when I made that comment. But I, I do think that moral judgment is diminishing because I think that there are also very many other positive health outcomes which are coming out of it. People drink less, they smoke less, you know, there's apparently suggestions that it could help prevent against all sorts

of... I've heard about dementia. Dementia, cancers, because it's, yeah, it seems, I mean, there could be negative health implications, we don't know yet. I don't know, I think, I would like to quote the great Dolly Parton, who did an interview for the Times magazine just a couple of weeks ago, and she was not saying she'd done any weight loss drugs, she was saying she'd been bigger, she'd been smaller. She may have had other work done, potentially. I know, hard to believe but she just said if you can afford

it and it makes you feel better about yourself, why not do it? Right. Well, I guess, yes, and that's ordinarily, no, not even, why am I saying this? That is what I think, really. Dolly is usually right about everything. She is. And she's been right again, it would seem. I also think if it makes people happy with themselves. Well it's the fact that I suppose if I mean obviously whatever I said was clumsily phrased I guess I meant I wouldn't want anyone who is say a size 12 or a size 14 to be sufficiently

dissatisfied that they would feel the need to turn to drugs. And is that because you think that by doing that we are buying into a kind of size zero culture? Yeah, that we've got to be... If people are a size 12 or 14 which is still below the average size of the UK, the average UK woman, that we are fueling this idea that you know anything above a size 8, you know, is that part of what you worry about? That must have been what was in my head I guess. And I think that's a totally fair comment. You know, the fashion reporters and editors that I know said that, you know, on the front row and on the catwalk, it is so noticeable,

the effects of his M pic. You mean everyone's getting skinny again? Everyone's getting skinny again. The models are emaciated again. There are no kind of plus-size models really being seen on the catwalk anymore and the fashion editors themselves are all much thinner than they were two or three seasons ago. So you know I mean I do agree with you that this sort of what becomes the baseline for what we think of as

desirable. It's not about health at that point is it? It really isn't. It's about fitting in sample sizes. Well look, we'll throw that one out there. So it's Jane O'Fee at Times.Rodeo if anybody else wants to pitch in on that. But I just wanted to say to Melinda, you know, I'm really sorry if I've caused you any upset and definitely not what I intended. A really quick one from Rosie in Sheffield. Oh Sheffield's getting a good outing today. She just wants to recommend a book about basically, how can I put this, dealing with older folk and she really, really recommends it and I know this book and you're absolutely spot on Rosie, it's really good. It's by Dr Lucy Pollock

and it's called The Book About Getting Older for people who don't want to talk about it. Trust me, trust me, you will get something from this book if you're fortunate enough to have older folk with all their wisdom in your life. Okay, I've done it. My mum's birthday is coming up soon. Or she won't want to. You could read it. I could read it, absolutely. I would like to read this from Liz in Bromley. Dear Jane Fee, even Jane M. Thank you Liz for welcoming me. She has written about pointless work experience. She once did a stint in a Bromley shopping centre

at a branch of Cookie Jar which was taken over by Millie's Cookies. Would have been the early 90s she says when she was about 16. My dad Nick, who you kindly mentioned in a previous episode, had worked for Round Trees and was somehow involved in Cookie Jar too. He thought some retail experience was a good idea for his privileged offspring. Liz says I was frankly a gormless liability I somehow managed to put two trays of cookies in the oven on top of each other and it was only the sharp eyes of a weary employee that stopped them sticking together. I spent a lot of time filling in forms to explain why I'd put the wrong number in the till says Liz. I'm sure the staff were filling in forms to explain why I'd put the wrong number

in the till, says Liz. I'm sure the staff were glad to see the back of me. Maybe they were so haunted that it generated the ghost that Fesor in Bromley. That incident has never been fully explained. She says I did gain huge respect for shop staff and learnt that travelling to work every day can be knackering, so it wasn't entirely pointless. Greetings to the whole off-air hive mind from Walthamstone. My temporary hood. But I think this is a really good point that Liz makes. The work experience itself can be utterly pointless, but you do realise that work's a grind, and getting there and getting home is often even more

of a grind, which is a very good lesson. No, well it certainly is for you, I mean you have some absolutely, well, some just long commutes to work day, but no, that's what, you have some absolutely, well, some just long commutes to work day, but no, that's what I always say when people ask what's it like working at Times Radio, I say, oh, do you know what, being there is absolutely genuinely brilliant, we have such fun, but I do get tired, it's going backwards and forwards, oh, I had no idea. Also, I've never commuted at quite what you might call popular times. So sometimes I'm going home about five in the evening, Jane.

I didn't know the tubes were full. So busy. Who are they all? What are they all doing? Why don't they just clear the way to let me go home? There are millions of them, I tell you. The London Underground system this week is full of people on trips for the Easterholles. Yeah, I mean, it is the upside of our economy tanking isn't it? The pound being so weak. Everyone come. London is just full of the world. Well it is but it also means that you're constantly bumping into people who've stopped to try to work out where they are and what

the quickest way is to go to the place that they'd like to visit. I'm sorry I need to be more patient. There's an awful lot of bags on escalators, aren't there? Everywhere. There really are. Everywhere you go. John Edwards, well, that's the company. The man who's emailed us is Alan, listening to the podcast Sexing a Cat. Just to let you know, you can bury, I think we were talking about funerals last week, you can bury the deceased in your back garden.

The only formal requirement is that a burial is noted on the deeds of the property. I love the show, shows Alan. I think that's Alan. He's in good shape there. He's got his arms folded. It looks like a... Yeah, if he needed a burial doing Alan, it looks like he could help. He does, actually. Absolutely no offence. Or maybe one dug up with his bare hands. So yes, of course that is notable that if you do bury somebody in your back garden, you do have to tell the authorities. I mean, I did bury that mouse that Dora killed quite formally in the back garden on Sunday, so I felt slightly ashamed of her, well, I'm

going to say vulgarity in murdering it, so I did give it a reasonable burial. David Dimbleby, yes, have you any thoughts or do you have some emails to read out on the subject of So I did give it a reasonable burial. David Dimbleby. Yes. Have you any thoughts or do you have some emails to read out on the subject of The Great Man? I've got them here. Yes. Hang on. They're at the bottom of... Not the top of my pile. I'll give you that one and I'll do this one. So David Dimble's was on Thursday's programme. It was actually Fida did the interview. Well, I say, I mean, she attempted to do the interview. What we sort of got was a kind of lecture from a great

chap. And look, you know, he's... Are you saying that David and Boo's a bit mansplaining? I look, I'm not, I keep saying look, because that's going to help. He's warming up for your scouse off later in the week. He's a brilliant broadcaster and I'm not fit to buff up his broadcasting boots. Was that why Fee had to do the interview? That's why Fee did the interview. But what I will say is he was a little bit. He was a man of his age. He's a man of his time, a man of his age. A man of his vintage, I was going to say.

So it was actually quite hard to interview him in any kind of formal sense. But we did learn a thing or two. This is from Susan. I would have expected more from him. He seemed annoyed. He needed to stop rambling on about Margaret Thatcher and answer questions. Then I googled him and saw his age. Possibly that explained what made him so blunt and querulous. And Fiat paid him such a nice compliment, calling him a silverback gorilla of broadcasting. Lovely to listen to as always. Interesting to hear about the loitering cat stalker. Yeah, that's Susan, thank you for that. That's Dora's new friend. I don't know whether it's a male or a female. Hey, it's 2025.

Well, before I read out the David Dimblebee email, I'll just say you could look, you could look apparently under the tail to work out whether it's a girl or a boy cat. Because Judith from Germany writes to say, peek under the tail, in adult non-new to tomcats, the testes are rather obvious, even in long haired breeds. Females are new to toms require a closer look. I'm not lifting up the cast. Fun fact, a litter of kittens can have multiple fathers. Lovely. Thank you Judith. There's a lot to digest. On to David Dimbleby. Chris writes to say, dear Jane of Thee, what a pompous ass. Thank you for giving me this one to read. I nearly crashed my car listening to him talking about the Eric Gill statue and comparing a paedophile to being gay. That was the moment that I walked into the studio, I think. Okay, yeah.

Yeah, it's a good job nobody could hear me shouting at the radio. I'm not called sweary nanny for nothing. Love the podcast and the radio show. Keep on doing what you're doing, please. Okay. It's difficult, isn't it? Because, yeah, he was talking about the Eric Gill sculpture outside Broadcasting House. And yeah, again, I think some of his remarks just felt a little bit on 2025 but they're his opinions and the man is a broadcasting legend so I mean look I've already got unpopular opinions I'd God knows what my opinions are gonna be like in nearly 30 years. If I spared, I expect I'll have all sorts of opinions.

We're just going to mic you up all the time. Just to record them. Yeah, maybe not. Can I just read this email from Susan or part of it because it is a lovely email. She writes about the fact that she wouldn't want to wear a badge or an armband to advertise the loss of a loved one. She lost her partner 46 years in November and she said frankly it was a relief to go to the supermarket or any other banal venue without having to cope with the very well-meant sympathy

of people who knew me and my loss at a time when I was raw with sorrow. I'm very happy to talk about my lovely late husband and his sad death but to advertise to the world that I was in a fragile state would be unbearable. I'm very sorry for your loss Susan and thank you for your lovely email and you do talk about the fact that all of the sort of the rigmarole of dealing with the utility companies and the phone companies is hard work but that everyone have been very kind but I do just want to talk about the end of your email which made me giggle. She especially enjoyed as did I Jane Garvey when I was listening last week your naive innocence about the price of petrol having no effect because you only ever bought £5 worth.

That's a genuine and shameful anecdote. Yeah, Garvey Economics, she's going to have a podcast about that soon. Yes. Garvey Economics, she's gonna have a podcast about that soon. Yes. Garveynomics. Eat your heart out, Peston. I'm coming for you. Sue says, when I first started work, I used to get a pay packet with cash every week. Oh, I remember that.

Yes. Oh, what joy to know exactly how much money you could spend that week. Sue says, bank accounts and credit cards have a lot to answer for. When I changed a payment to the bank, I received a letter from the bank informing me that they didn't like the way I was anticipating my monthly salary. Anticipating. Well, that's probably hinting at a more genteel time, isn't it? Isn't it? Yeah. Okay. I anticipate quite heavily, through the means of overdraft. Back in the day I was called in to see the bank manager about my overdraft when I was

a student. Oh my god. And it was a miserable encounter and I can still, he's a stank of facts, I mean those are the days. Janet says, a couple of nights ago I listened, as I usually do most nights, when I wake up and just can't sleep. Did you make mention of a book beginning with a letter T? I don't think it's a T. Maybe she's talking about Fundamentally. Ah. Which is an F. Right.

Because she does say, she thinks maybe it was about Iran, Iraq. But Fundamentally was the one that Fee mentioned about. That's really helpful. It was Fundamentally. Thank you so much, Jane. Janet, it was Fundamentally. I mean, honestly, your dreams sound as mad as mine. Do I get points there for being an avid listener who can remember the name of books? Which TV star did I dream about being a part of our podcast? Oh. Last night, by the way, I married Elton John.

So, I genuinely can't wait for tonight's adventures. I used to want to marry Elton John when I was very young before I realised the way of the world. Can I do one really quick one before I know you have to go but just to redress the balance on David Dimbleby. Rita has written in saying, just listen to your guest David Dimbleby, could listen to him forever. There we are. And he might like that too, Rita. And he has such a wonderful voice. I'm 86 years old, says Rita, and remember when his father Richard Dimbleby came on our new black

and white TVs and my grandmother used to say, what a lovely man, I love his blue eyes. Rita's from New Yorker where they only have one petrol station which is not Sol Service. She always uses it. Right, well Rita, so good to hear from you. That was a wonderful bit of BBC appropriate balance in celebration of a Dimbleby. Thank you for that, Jane. You good to hear from you. That was a wonderful bit of BBC appropriate balance in celebration of a Dimblebee. Thank you for that, Jane. You have been absolutely brilliant today. Come again tomorrow, she will. Let's bring in our guest.

I can't believe we've got to talk to philanthropist and author, it is Melinda French-Gates. Now it's perfectly possible that all you know about her is that she's incredibly wealthy and was once married to Bill Gates, the co-founder of Microsoft. The couple divorced in 2021. Melinda French Gates is now 60 and has written a book called The Next Day. Transitions, Change and Moving Forward. Now when I talked to her we started by discussing her new organisation,

Pivotal Ventures, which she's established to put power into the hands of women and girls. The standout sentence is I'm simply not willing to accept the idea that my granddaughters could grow up with less freedom than I had. I put it to Melinda that these are troubling times in America. They're troubling times around the world, definitely. Yes, but I mean, listen, Britain's not perfect, but I think I'm probably happier as a woman and as a mother of daughters living in the UK. Well, and part of the reason that I wrote that statement is that because of the decision that was made by our Supreme Court, as it stands today, my two granddaughters will have less rights than I had growing up.

And that to me makes absolutely no sense. And so one of the things that I'm doing is making sure that my work continues and that we really keep working on lifting women up in the United States and around the world. Can you just give us some practical examples of the work that Pivotal is doing right now? Sure. When I left the Gates Foundation in June of last year, I made a one billion dollar commitment through my company Pivotal Ventures. And that billion dollar commitment is really to help make sure that women can step into their full power. A piece of it, a quarter of it, $250 million, is going towards a women's health fund.

It's called Action for Women's Health. We've called for proposals from around the world. We're now vetting those proposals in October. We will award those to winners. That's one example. Another big chunk of the money goes towards women's organizations in the United States that have been playing defense for too long and need to have the funding to play on the offense. So we keep working on women's rights. So those are two of the big areas amongst others. So you're thinking long term because Donald Trump,

he will go, I mean he can't be there forever. In four years time the Trump administration Might be a distant dream. But do you think it will be? Well, it's no Surprise that I was disappointed by this election and we do have a constitution in place So he will not be there again in four years. And so absolutely, we need to be making long-term investments on behalf of women and girls,

because we are half of society. And when we reach the right places, our rightful places in society, for instance, in state legislatures or on Capitol Hill, we do make different policies and laws for society, and we move money differently. Not better or worse necessarily, just differently because of our lens on society. And to what degree are you really irked by this current emphasis on, well I think the

expression is masculine energy. What does that mean to you? Well I never like anything that pits men against women or women against men. I just don't believe in it. I know too many good men and women in our country and around the world who want the best for their kids, their daughters, their sons. Everybody dreams of a better life for their child. That's universal. I know that from the many, many, many years I've traveled around the world on behalf of the Gates Foundation. So I don't think we should ever pit men against women. No.

But you know what I'm getting at. The tech bro emphasis on the hoodie wearing guys in the room. It must be something that you've got a view on. Well, I certainly have a view on it and my view is that shouldn't be. My view is that women also need to hold their full power and their full resources. You know, there's a focus right now on a certain amount of these tech bros, but the truth is two-thirds of the wealth held in my country is now in the hands of women and that's only going to continue to grow because, you know, we're living longer, women

are outliving men in our country. So making sure those women can step into their full power, their full voice, decision-making authority and resources, that's what's going to change society. Can we talk about your family life? Because your dad worked on the Apollo mission, didn't he? So a formidable engineer, clearly a brilliant man. And your mother, very clever, but didn't work outside the home. What was that dynamic like?

Yes, so when I was a young child, it is true my mom didn't work outside the home when I was very young. But by the time I was in late middle school, my parents, so my dad's engineer's salary, he worked on the Apollo missions. It was incredible. So I saw amazing innovation as a girl growing up. As I talk about in the book, he really believed that my sister and I, if we wanted to, could be good in math and science.

And he supported us in that, was just really something. My mom also believed we should all go to college, but it was clear my dad's engineering salary wasn't going to put four children through college. There were four of us, I have three siblings. And so my parents started a small real estate business that those rental properties and houses that they fixed up and sold,

and that we worked on as a family was going to be our college fund. So my mom, starting in my late middle school years also worked outside of the home in that regard. So I saw her more on that sort of entrepreneurial bent with my dad. So I ended up having both in my house, which was lovely. You had a brilliant job at Microsoft and then you did leave it when your first daughter was born and I confess I was a bit surprised when I read that in the book. Was that something you wrestled with or was it something you actually thought was a no-brainer? I knew when I quit that I would always go back to work in some capacity. I didn't know in what capacity,

but I did feel that my circumstances were unusual. We were an extraordinarily privileged family and yet I wanted my three children to grow up with the values I had from my middle class family growing up. I also, you know, my ex-husband Bill, you know, he was a hard charging CEO. We were at the, you know, the computer industry was on its way up. He's traveling the globe for that. So if we wanted our children to be raised with the values we wanted to have as a family, I just felt somebody needed to be home. But I did know I would go back to work.

That I knew. I just didn't know how and in what way. Right. I mean, I love your honesty in the book. I mean, you do say that in that pregnancy, you gained now 79 pounds in weight. Yes. That is quite a lot. My doctor didn't think it was so funny, but I did.

No, okay. Well, you obviously enjoyed yourself and that's no bad thing. Bill did go to the birth, but you do say that he smelt faintly of burgers and you found that very nauseating. Yeah, I wrote that in the book because, you know, look, it was a different era. Dads, you know, I think were in the delivery room, but you know, I even write in the book that for the first pregnancy, like it was clear my labor was going to be very long. So he went off to work for a while and then showed up and I wouldn't say it was a faint smell of burgers. be very long. So he went off to work for a while and then showed up. And I wouldn't say it was a faint smell of burgers.

As you know, if you've had children, your senses are very heightened in the delivery room. So it probably was a faint smell, but it felt huge to me. So I did ask him to take his, that particular sweater off and put it in the hallway. Right. You also acknowledge that actually motherhood becoming a mother is utterly overwhelming.

And I love the notion that on the way back from the maternity hospital, you decided you would not only stop at a Starbucks, but you would stagger across the concourse, whatever it was, and you would order your own coffee, because you believed that would help you reclaim your old life. But the truth is, you't reclaim it can you? It's gone. Yeah it was it was a little bit of an illusion I would say but it was a stance I sort of made to myself you know stitches and all and I had several. I was going to shuffle through that parking lot and get that coffee but I think it really hit me

the first time I wanted to leave the house and I realized, oh my gosh, that baby will always be with me when I leave the house, at least for the next, you know, year. Eventually I had more help, but it was like, wow, it took me a lot longer to get out the house. And I had a jogging stroller so I could, you know, push her around the neighborhood, first walking, then jogging jogging but yeah I felt it was important to still have some semblance of independence of my own because I was I was leaving a big career and excited to be a new mom but wow a new baby you know they cry a lot. And at that time did you feel resentment towards Bill because his

life was obviously able to continue in a presumably it was the life he'd always led? I wouldn't say that, certainly not on the weekdays, but if he chose to do something on the weekends that I felt like was something I couldn't necessarily do or it went a lot longer than he expected it to, then I would get upset about that for sure. And we had to work that through, which I think many couples do. Yeah, I mean the book, we need to emphasise the book, includes your feelings around your divorce, but it's not only about your divorce from from Bill Gates, so we need to make that very, very clear. But I think you are interesting on I don't know the compartmentalization that a lot of

people do certainly not just women when they're in a long-term relationship and there are there there's a part of them that knows this isn't quite right but they don't allow it to impact them or they feel it's just not the right time to do anything. Was it like that for you? Well my book as you said is about many transitions because we do, we go through many transitions in life. I felt it was important to write about my divorce just because people knew I'd been through it and many people unfortunately do go through a divorce, about 50 percent of couples. I can only say what my journey was and I talk about in that chapter needing to listen to my inner voice. You know, sometimes you've got this

inner voice that's small and it's there, but I do think paying attention to it is the advice I would say to people in any situation. It's quite important. You are privileged in many ways and you always acknowledge, by the way, how privileged you are and have been. But you have lots of famous friends, Oprah is one of them, and Oprah I think used the expression, what is whispering to you? Can you just tell us about that and about the weight of that question? Yes, so I, yeah, I'm first of all unbelievably privileged and to both with the resources I have but the people I've been gotten to know over time. I was interviewing her last year for a series I was doing called Moments That Make Us and she said this expression, which I then put in the book, she gave me permission, which was to say, your voice has this small whisper, and if you don't pay attention to

it, it's eventually, as she says, going to thump you on the head. So if you can catch the voice as she says in the whisper, you can start to deal with it and listen to what it's telling you. And I think we all need to create space in our lives to listen to that inner voice, whether it's quiet time in the morning, whether it's a walk, whether it's a jog, whether it's sitting out in nature. There are many ways to do it. But you know, our voices and even our bodies are giving us messages all the time. And if we push them aside, they can become big problems later.

Yeah. You did in the, well, during the course of the divorce, have therapy, didn't you? But I don't think therapy was something that you were really keen to rush into. I think that would be an understatement. Did you feel resistant towards the whole notion of it? Definitely. And I write about therapy in the book and I also write about anxiety that I had and even a panic attack which I'd never had in my life. And the reason I thought it was important to write about those things is I think we're all better off when we can acknowledge these things in our life, even the resistance I had to it. You know, I think for me, some

of that was because I grew up Catholic, some of it was because I grew up in Texas. I really don't think I knew anybody who'd been to therapy until I moved to the West Coast. Is it really, sorry to interrupt, but is it really that stark the difference that people... At least when I was growing up, but generationally things have changed immensely. So many young people now talk about their anxiety or needing to find a therapist if they can or getting some help, so I think it was also partly a generational thing. And I think a lot of people, but I'm going to say overwhelmingly women, who read the book will take comfort from people, but I'm going to say overwhelmingly women, who read the book, will take comfort from the fact that you're prepared to say you

had anxiety-ridden dreams in the build-up to the divorce, that you were really, really well hard on yourself and desperately concerned about what the negotiations were going to be like, because you knew Bill obviously, well you knew him, but you also knew his incredible intellectual capabilities. I mean, the pressure on you was considerable, wasn't it? And I wrote about that from my experience because I think the pressure, honestly, no matter what level you're at on any family going through that is intense. You're pulling apart something that has been put together and hopefully you have interwoven your lives

and your finances and your goals. And so anytime you're pulling it apart, at least all the divorces I've seen up close, they are just painful. And I thought it was important to be authentic about that. Yeah, and I've been divorced myself, I should say. And there is a peculiar intimacy about that process in a funny way.

You are thrown together with the man in this case and in my case and you're having these quite quite in-depth and emotional conversations and it really does get you. I mean it's something that's quite hard to get over. Do you think you're over it now? I think I'm living the life I want to live now and I am very happy. You learn to lean on other people. I had to really lean on my friends in a way I never had before. And guess what? There's beauty in that too and you grow from it and then you find a resilience in you. Yeah. These are the friends you call, I think, the lunch bunch. Is that right? I had that group of friends for quite some time, but I have two spiritual groups and

I have a walking group that I call my Truth Council and we walk every Monday morning that we're in town. Right, and that's just a fixed point in your week, nothing can change that. That's right. Right, okay. How far do you walk? Depends on... It depends on given our age, what any of us are dealing with health-wise, you know, if somebody's got a twisted ankle or if we're all having a good morning. So, you know, we like to walk about five and a half miles,

but we don't always do that. I will have to admit even once this year, we only walked about a mile to a bakery and a mile back. We're like, we need our coffee this morning. Okay, that's my kind of long walk. I think that sounds brilliant. Can I ask, have you read Sarah Wynn Williams book, Careless People? I have not. Why not?

I don't know. I just haven't picked it up. It hasn't come across my purview. Okay, I mean, it's the book that is, she's a whistleblower, worked for Facebook. And I was about, the only reason she's cropped up in my head is that obviously it's not unconnected to your world. But I was meant to be interviewing her and now Metta have stopped her doing interviews to publicize this book. Should we be concerned about this, that this woman is no longer free to talk about the book she's written? And I appreciate that she hasn't worked at Facebook for quite some time, but nevertheless shouldn't she be allowed to tell her version of events? Well, I'm not going to speak to her particular case, but what I will say is that I believe

a woman should have their full voice, decision-making authority and resources to use in society. So I never like when you see a woman silenced. And do you think it's rather frightening that she has been? I think it's concerning. Should parents be asking more questions about social media and particularly about their children's use of it? Definitely. Definitely. I raised three children who are now grown adults and I will tell you the difference between when my oldest was in middle school and I was negotiating a flip phone in 5th grade with her versus my youngest when went through middle school during the time of a smartphone it was profoundly different and so I'm

a big proponent on having rules and limits on phones about when kids are in their bedrooms with them I made sure all my kids put their phones outside their bedrooms where I knew where they were plugged in at night and they will tell you I checked I believe that you know kids really shouldn't have a phone in their hands at certain ages and they ought to be even in high school even school they shouldn't be in the classroom, I've seen great classrooms

where everybody checks their phone into a cubby on the way in the classroom door and they pick it up on the way out. These are easy things, rules to follow, that I think just give all of these kids a break and let them focus on other things. Yeah, I mean it is notable in Careless People that Sarah says that the bosses at Facebook really were very strict with their own children. I mean, they really had very strict rules and indeed would prioritize education at a school that was Montessori based and incredibly simple and gadgets were just banned at home. I mean, that does tell you quite a lot, doesn't it? There was a movie out in the United States, actually a documentary about four years ago, with several people interviewed in the tech industry who were actually have changed their

mind and now that they have kids are proponents of not having social media in their hands at a young age. And you're finally seeing the previous Surgeon General in the last administration, Vivek Murthy, who was great, he really went out and was really letting people know the devastating effects of what's happening in suicide rates and anxiety because of social media and phones. So I do think the tide is finally turning and I think that's needed. What do you make of Robert F Kennedy Jr's stance on vaccines because you and Bill poured billions into vaccines and during COVID I mean preposterously there was that utter rubbish about Bill planting chips in people's heads and yet here we

are that man is now in charge of health in the Trump administration. What do you say about it? What I know about vaccines is that they absolutely save children's lives. And I have met literally thousands of parents in low-income countries who walk miles in the heat, they leave their small business, they leave their farm, they figure out how to get the bus fare. And when you talk to them and they're in line

to get those vaccines and you ask them why, they look at you like, why are you even asking me the question? Of course, this is going to save my child's life. I want the best for my child. So it makes no sense to me that we would roll back any vaccinations in those parts of the world or anywhere all 3 of my children are fully vaccinated as are my granddaughters because guess

what I want them to live and their parents want them to live and to grow up healthy. Why have a needless disease that could cause you to land in the hospital or even die? It just makes no sense. So we're speaking in the week of the Signal chat group leak and people in the UK will have listened to you, Melinda, and many of them will be thinking, why is this woman not going into politics? So, well, perhaps you are. Is there an answer to that? Would you consider it?

I will not go into politics. But what I will do is make sure that we get far more women into state legislatures in the United States, because we move a lot of policy and a lot of money through state legislatures and it's a great training ground so that we get more women up on Capitol Hill in DC in our Senate and our U.S. House because women make different policy than men. It's not that they have a that they're better or worse they just have a different lens on society and that's why I believe we need far more women in our parliaments and in our legislatures. Do you have anyone in the Trump administration, somebody high up now that you could pick up the phone to and just say look I'd like to work with you on X, Y or Z? Not at the moment but I certainly have contacts on Capitol Hill in both the Senate and the

House. And to me, that's where you build bipartisan legislation. And I care a lot, for instance, and one of the things I'm trying to further is legislation around caregiving, because too many people in society are dealing with aging parents and young kids. And we have a broken caregiving system in the United States and it's holding in particular women back. There we are, Melinda French-Gates who doesn't want to go into politics but is talking to some people, some people we're not quite sure who they are,

in the administration or at least on Capitol Hill. Let us know what you think about that and anything else we've talked about today. It is Jane and Fee at times.radio, the two Janes back with you in your ears tomorrow. Do you want to say goodbye? Goodbye. Bye bye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Music