Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Gimme Gimme Gimme a technical man after midnight (with Sathnam Sanghera)

Episode Date: January 24, 2024

There's lots to get through tonight because the likelihood is Jane has to get home to a fella on her flat roof... They chat #birthcanals, unfunny sitcoms and Jane's travels. Plus, The Times journalist Sathnam Sanghera is here to discuss his brand new book 'Empireworld: How British Imperialism Has Shaped the Globe'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. The absolute garbage that is Mrs Brown.

Why is it on telly? Do you remember, I remember Kirstie Young did Desert Island Discs with, who's the bloke who plays Mrs Brown? Brendan O'Carroll? Something. It's very successful. Brendan O'Successful. Yeah. She did it so deliciously.

She basically said congratulations on the enormous success of Mrs Brown's dreadful programme. It has broad brush appeal. I thought that was so fantastically. Passive, aggressively complimentary. That's got everything.

Hasn't it? Delicious. It was really, really, really well done. I'm going to steal that now and apply it to almost... Honestly, it has never made me even... I cringe. I catch the end credits because sometimes it's before something I do want to watch. And just.

A wildlife programme. Probably. Probably a very, very, very complicated documentary. Probably about the ERM. I love. That's how I like to chill my beans. But just the way that they say goodbye. So Brendan's always doing this kind of upsum, you know,

which is always, you know, something just like a Hallmark card greeting kind of motto inside. Oh, he's sitting there in his house coat, isn't he? Yes, yeah. Doing the old Irish mammy thing. Yes, exactly. It'll all be fine, it'll all be fine. Oh, go away. And I just don't, I really,

really, really don't understand men dressing up as women. If you want to take on, and I wouldn't take on Fiona Glover today, by the way, I'll just say, but if you want to take her on. Yeah, I'm heavily medicated. I've actually found it quite it reminded me of one of my

other, and occasionally one of my other broadcasting partners was doing a programme with me and she just had an accident and she was on incredibly strong painkillers and was utterly charming, which for her was quite unusual. Oh, no, don't stop. You're so mean. In your case, you're always... No, not always. You're normally very nice, but I know you're not feeling well,

so I like to think I've been quite conciliatory today. Yes, you've brought me a full fat Coke. I never understand why people turn to full fat Coke. Oh, it's a fantastic prop. So I won't finish the whole can. Right. But it's just the constant sugar. I just like it. I'd like to know it's there. You saying that has reminded me of a conversation I was having with young Eve earlier, which began with me asking her if she could drive. She then said yes. And then there was a break in proceedings. You haven't got a license.

She acknowledged that she hadn't passed her test. She said she could drive in an emergency. That then reminded me of going to the dental hygienist last week, which for me is utter torture. not because I actually rather enjoy the procedure and I think the woman who does it is brilliant but it's the fact that I have to listen to other people talking and I obviously can't speak which for me is hell on wheels I can imagine that may cause you some pain it does it does cause me pain much more pain than is actually caused to my nashers when they're being dealt with. But the two of them were having a fascinating conversation about how the younger woman,

who is the assistant, was Irish from the Republic of Ireland. And she maintained that a huge number of people in Ireland don't bother taking the driving test. They get a provisional license, and then that's fine. And that apparently, this is according to her, is enough in Ireland. Well, I've googled it and there are some people who say, well, you'd be surprised what you can get away with. But I just don't believe it. There's obviously got to be a procedure for a driving test like there is everywhere. But you can drive a motorcycle just on a provisional licence, can't you? Which is why you see hundreds of motorcycles with the L plate on the back. I don't know whether they've ever changed that. And so does that have anything to motorcycles with the l plate on the back i don't know whether they've ever changed that all right and so does that have anything to do with the fact that some young people i don't know any young people who've had a false irish driving license as an identity card

have a false irish driving license as an identity card is that because there are just hundreds and hundreds and thousands of irish drivingences that they keep to use up. Yeah, I don't... I know, I just take it as if you know anything about that. I mean, obviously, I just... I simply couldn't participate in the conversation at all. And by the time I... Look, this is good, Jane,

because you couldn't participate in the conversation. Look at what you've learnt. Well, but have I learnt? Is it the truth? That's what I'm asking. Anyway. You've got a Christmas card. I have got why well because you know and this is peculiar a little bit unsettling you might say it's got it was meant to happen I felt a sudden calling today

to go over and pick a book from the bookshelves we've got yes I saw you do yeah to be honest I thought maybe you just needed to go and break wind privately, away from the desk. As you know, first of all, if I did need to do it, I wouldn't move. And much more importantly, as I've said many times, I don't actually ever need to, which is still the truth. But I did say, I know I did feel like a feeling in my waters, just as I've always felt that it won't be Biden versus Trump, by the way. And I continue to believe that. I went over to pick up a very specific book from a shelf and what fell out of that book? A Christmas card. A Christmas card. Well, that is extraordinary. And it was addressed to us. Yes. And bear in mind, this is a general office. Other people

use it. And the Christmas card was addressed to us from Gwyneth. So Gwyneth, thank you so much for taking the time to thank it, to thank it. Thank you very much for taking the time to send it. She says she's a teacher in Belgium, although I'm originally from Yorkshire, but this year I've spent a lot of time travelling between the two countries as my mum was very ill. Sadly, in October she died, but I got some comfort from listening to your very varied conversations when faced with some very sad and difficult days myself I share the same birthday as Fi and still enjoy going to school every day even though I've been teaching since 1983. Gwyneth well thank you I'm so sorry to hear about your mum I'm glad we were to

be we were able to be of some help and fascinating to hear about your teaching life in Belgium. So I don't know a lot about Belgium, really. I mean, I've been there. My interrailing experience back in the 80s only took me as far as Brussels. And then I came back. Well, I had been away for three weeks. So Jane's interrailing to Brussels for new joiners was the source of much amusement back at the old place. Yes, I haven't been back to Belgium since. Oh yes I have.

Because, you know, back in the day when people did go into reigning, you know, a lot of people did head for the beaches of southern Europe. Not me. No. And we like to imagine that Jane went to Brussels on an interrail ticket with a briefcase to go and look round some important bureaucratic institutions. I always remember, actually I have been back to Belgium, so I did lie, and it must have been with some BBC expedition, and I just remember going into the foyer of a hotel

and there was an older man with a beautiful, magnificent raincoat over his shoulder, not on his body. Oh, the over-the-shoulder thing. Over-the-shoulder thing, yeah. Which you just don't get. You don't get that in Letchworth. No, you don't. You really don't.

No. I always think it's either a sign of criminal activity, you know, that slight borderline, just kind of... Inspector Clouseau. What do you mean? No, kind of fraud. Fraud? It's another occasion where I missed a big story.

Not violent crime, you know, with a terrible kind of victim with a head injury, but just kind of mild crime against some kind of tax revenue. I always think that it's that kind of man who wears the coat. As a cape. Yes. A cape effect coat. Yeah, either that or a pimp so this one comes in from charlotte uh can i just say happy birthday as well to gwyneth because that means that your birthday is coming up yes in october it's in february uh best wishes come in from charlotte

uh who says two decades ago i lived alone in a small flat just outside Winchester shout out to Fee shout out to you Charlotte with my young cat Minstrel he was trained in many ways he came when he was called I developed a warning whistle to tell him to stop when he was being naughty and he knew better than to try to wake me up for breakfast at the weekend because I lived alone doors were left open Minstrel would follow me everywhere including to the bathroom when i sat down to do my business he'd jump up onto the toilet seat behind me and observe sometimes even rather disturbingly poking his head under my bottom to get a better view soon after this habit developed minstrel started jumping into the bathroom sink and sitting aside astride that's key the plug hole it didn't't take me long to notice he was doing rather more than just sit.

He was carefully straddling the plug hole and peeing directly down into it. Don't believe that. It was as if he'd noticed the size of the toilet that I use compared the size of the plug hole in the sink and thought, yep, that one must be for me. All I had to do was run the tap after he'd been and put a little bleach down there once a day. Minstrel's now 18.5 years old and living with my mother.

Sadly, none of his youthful training has endured, but I think so fondly of the couple of years we spent, not so much as cat and owner, but almost as roommates. Well, Charlotte, I don't think anybody can beat that. I don't think they can either. It's a shame there's no photographic evidence of this. That's quite something, isn't it? We might be straying into quite niche territory there.

A little bit. Yeah. Nobody Google that. But, well, I'm glad, very glad to hear that Minstrel's very much still with us. Yeah, 18.5 years. That's impressive. Maggie was entertained by your story for of your what was it again i've already forgot aromatherapy yoga yeah that's it breathe through your feet right well it reminded maggie of a hypnobirthing class that she did on arrival the

class leader asked the couples present to tell the group why they'd decided on hypnobirthing. This takes me back to those baby classes. My God. Some women told stories of traumatic first births that they wished to avoid second time around. And who can blame them? There were some tears. So far, so totally understandable. Then we got to the lady next to me. Well, she immediately burst into tears, her partner soothing her, and I prepared myself to hear another story of birth trauma. What I wasn't expecting to hear was that the trauma related to the woman's own birth. Apparently, when giving birth to her, her mother had had flu, and therefore she tearfully recounted in great detail how she'd had to push herself down the birth canal and how

exhausted she was from all the effort, all that pushing to get herself out into the world. Through the tears she told how she could remember it all. She had her regular nightmares throughout her life, even frequently finding herself rolled up and trapped in her blankets at night, trying to push her way out of the bed. She was reliving her birth. Maggie, thank you for that. Of course, the truth is we can't dispute that, can we? And I'm sure Maggie isn't necessarily disputing it either. But she does go on to say,

I will also never forget the look on my ex-husband's face as he leaned towards me with the wonderful romantic words, what the fuck are we doing here? The wonderful romantic words. What the fuck are we doing here? So you're right. And it's very good of you to say that we cannot dispute this memory. And we can't.

And we mustn't because everybody's truth is their own. But it seems unlikely. Well, it seems unlikely. We need somebody who's a memory specialist, don't we? Like a proper clinical one, not someone who's just, you know, done it through wind chimes or seen a TikTok. Yeah. Hashtag wealth.

My own birth. Hashtag birth canal. No, don't look at that. No. Oh, God, no. But let's, yes, let's throw that open. I have no memory. I mean, everybody's done the kind of earliest memory thing and I've got nothing, nothing in my locker about birth at all.

No. No. It's not possible, is it? No. But I often, I do wonder if somehow the way you end up having your children probably does knock some kind of very, very early memory in your own head that you can't bring it to reality, but maybe it explains some women's anxiety

and some women's complete lack of anxiety. Yeah, it's possible. I would love to know more about it. Because the strangest people seem to fare badly during childbirth and vice versa. There seems to be no rhyme or reason, really, Jane. There really doesn't. And I do think it's undiscussed. It's not undiscussed, but it isn't discussed as much as it could be. So let's throw it out. Ros Tebbell is listening to us in Sydney.

Very good evening from us. And Ros just wanted to slightly chide me, which is absolutely fine, because I was having a bit of a laugh about aromatherapy yoga. But of course, yoga, I know, Jane, is enormously helpful to so many people. And I went to that class because I used to do yoga years ago, and I really loved it, really, really helped. And I thought, oh thought oh I do yoga but I don't do yoga and that class it just everything had changed but Roz just wants to say I personally gain benefit from a regular yoga practice and when in a relaxed environment it helps if you consider the practice also as a mind exercise too meditation is helpful to calm the mind from

constant thoughts ever heard the concept of washing makeup off our helpful to calm the mind from constant thoughts. Ever heard the concept of washing makeup off our face to allow the skin to breathe? Well, if you're practiced at focusing the mind, it's possible to imagine energy or sensation in any part of the body. If you Google yoga nidra, which my doctor recommends as a great way to de-stress and aid sleep, I just wanted to open your mind to the concept of the imagery rather than the textbook terminology. It's not bollocks if you're benefiting from the practice. So thank you for that, Ros. Well, it's true, isn't it? If you feel a benefit, whether it's, I don't know, placebo effect or not, good luck to you. Yeah. And also thank you to people who are suggesting

that we both watch Boy Swallows Universe on the fl flicks because I'd said that I probably wouldn't watch it because I'd really, really like the book, but lots of people say, no, you really should because it's just a great adaptation. I had trouble with my satellite again in the wind. No. Had to get a man out. No. My flat roof is one of the busiest parts of my

house, I tell you. I've often got a fanner out there. Not a euphemism. So where does the printer man go? Is he back in the cupboard? Is he on the flat roof? Actually, in fairness, printer man hasn't been needed lately

because the printer, although slow to function, when asked to print normally cooperates, it can take up to 20 minutes and you'll just have given up, gone downstairs. And you just think goes... Yeah. And you just think, why? Why has it now done it?

Well, are you on a cable or a Wi-Fi connection? Beg your pardon? Are you on a Wi-Fi connection? What? No, it's Wi-Fi. Okay, so that's just because your Wi-Fi is just wiped up. I don't understand why anyone has a Wi-Fi printer. Recipe for disaster. Just plug it in with a cable.

Why do you need... Is your printer down in the east wing? But it's also in a plug. Whilst your laptop is in the west wing? No, they're both in the same room. Yeah, so connect them with a cable and then you won't have that problem. Can you even do that?

You can do that with a Wi-Fi printer, can you? Yes, you can. Okay. But I tell you printer can you yes you can okay yep but i tell you what why don't you get on your big man phone and call another man out i'm imagining that it's one of those really really big old phones and you just pick it up send a man send a man please gimme gimme gimme a technical man after midnight yeah well not after midnight because i've been asleep for two hours after 8 30. after 6 30 i'll do with me and i'm sorry for the mispronunciation we were trying to work out jay more karen's meat the pronunciation of b u c c l e u c h what bow vocal oh well apparently it's but boot the clue Oh the Duke of yes well see you use one of

your old flames one of Jane's then right we oh I just wanted to read this out of this is okay it comes from Alistair did Joan of fee being a gentleman of a certain vintage I've been a wireless listener for many years and over the years there have been certain radio voices that are just perfect. Jack D'Amanio, is that the right pronunciation? Yes, oh yes, he was the chap who did the Radio 4 breakfast show. Yeah, the

Today programme. Yeah, and could never tell the time. Okay. Brian Johnston for cricket commentary. Jenny Murray on Woman's Hour. Certain voices that give me that warm, comfortable feeling that everything is alright. She did that, definitely. And I have the same feeling when listening to you

too. Oh, that's alright then. And thank you, Alistair. I love your programme, the interviews, the subjects and the synchronised banter. I feel that's not the right word for ladies who talk. Might it be inter? We don't really mind. Whatever you call it, it's nice to have your own.

Inter banter. Inter banter, yeah. Jane Fee, you were talking yesterday about big cars. On that subject, my daughter is expecting child three in six weeks. This necessitates a new car purchase, as it's impossible to fit three child car seats in the back seat of a so-called normal car. Car seats are now absolutely huge.

I would not have believed it if I hadn't seen it for myself. It also seems the market is really limited if you need to accommodate two adults and three under fours, or even three adults and two children. And the only option is some sort of SUV, not their preferred choice. Madly expensive, and she says the nursery car park is already a challenge at drop-off and pick-up times now i hadn't thought about this um and this is from june thank you june she goes on to say headlights because we've been talking about those as well i

no longer drive my mazda mx5 at night this is turning into a car podcast and not before time i might say let's talk cars the ma Mazda MX-5 do you like that one let's talk talk yes I'm very good I did actually I no longer drive my Mazda MX-5 at night as I'm dazzled by bright lights in front and behind from SUVs at practically my roof level and it isn't just ladies of a so-called certain age the The other daughter of 26 found her one-hour cross-country commute in a Corsa increasingly difficult as the winter progressed. Those darn bright mainly SUV headlights dazzled her from behind. She was relieved to get a job in central London and commute by tube.

Something, says June, must be done. June, you are talking our language because both of us really agree and I'm amazed that something hasn't been done already because as far as I can make out, there is no other side of the argument. There are no people going, oh, you know, I can't possibly drive at night because everybody else's headlights don't dazzle me

and don't light up the road enough. I mean, that's just not a thing. That hasn't been a thing for years. I do think it's worrying because my concern would be that there'll be lots of people who have just decided, like June, that they don't want to drive anymore. And then there'll be a night when, for whatever reason, it might be an emergency, they have to drive at night.

They'll be stressed anyway. And I think that's a real, that's a risk factor. It's got to be. But also, I mean, a 26-year-old with presumably very good eyesight and all that kind of stuff, you know, actually being relieved that her job means she doesn't have to do that drive. I mean, you shouldn't even be thinking twice about that at the age of 26. And I suppose I haven't thought about the, I mean, car seats.

They've got bigger and bigger, haven't they? They have, as they get safer and safer, which is a good thing. That's obviously a very good thing. But I hadn't realised quite how cumbersome they were. And what a threat that posed to somebody who owned a sort of smallish car. So if anybody's listening... Just don't have kiddies. That's the answer.

It's more or less the answer to everything, isn't it? Don't be silly. Don't bother. If anybody's listening who has an idea what we could do about the LED lights, because we've covered it as a story, and I would imagine that there are some MPs who've had emails about it and stuff like that, but how could we make a bigger noise about it? Because I'd like it to just change.

Maybe we could just have a guest on from that lovely man who worked for the AA and then went to work for the ROC. We were stunned, weren't we? I don't remember who was that. Edmund King. Edmund King. Or was it the other way around? He'd transfer to the other side.

Walked across the floor. Even years later, he drove. Stop. Right. Who's our big guest? Our big guest is Satnam Sanghera. Now, he was really delightful, delightful actually jane and he did say because we talked to him about his children's version of empire land didn't we that's right

in the first couple of weeks that we were doing this show here at times radio and he was very nice and he said that he enjoyed that so he agreed to come back to talk about his latest book because he's a guy who turns down some opportunities to talk about his books because sometimes he gets such a horrible reaction, racist, nasty, threatening. And all he's doing is telling us something about our shared history that we all need to know a little bit more about. He is by no means the first person to draw attention to the massive gaps in the way that British history has been taught, which is, here's the world, most of it's pink, we ruled it. We were great.

We were great. Nobody was really harmed, and here we are now. We brought civilisation. And we exported democracy. To places that desperately needed it. So he is doing some digging around. You all right there? I sort of fell off.

I was using my elbow as a prop and it just slid off. At least I didn't fart. I still don't do that. Looking at the world with some very kind of with a very clear eye actually as to what the Empire really meant. It's a really interesting book. Really interesting.

I was just struck by one little quote and it's a very very easy to read book as well which Jane and I are just struck by one little quote and it's a very, very easy to read book as well which Jane and I are always grateful for. So this comes along I think in the first or second chapter. Sir Richard Turnbull, who was a governor of Aden, once predicted that when the British Empire finally sank beneath the waves of history it would leave behind only two monuments.

One was the game of association football and the other was the expression F off. And it is just one of the juicy delights that Satnam pops into the book about the effects of empire. The full title is Empire World, How British Imperialism Has Shaped the Globe. And really, it's a book also about why that still matters now, possibly more than ever. Satnam works at The Times. He writes for the newspaper. So we asked him if it had to pop up or pop down to see us. For me, Wolverhampton is the centre of the universe.

So this is down. OK, I'm more meant your offices here at Times Town. OK, yes, up, up. OK, it's lovely to see you. Shall we go into this through the prism of plants, ferns and fronds? Because I think this encapsulates how you write so well. You bring something different to the topic. So why does fern, why do ferns matter?

Yeah, I was surprised by this. For me, plants are basically interior design. But it turns out Britain did express quite a lot of its colonialism through the medium of plants. So, for example, we built a cinchona plantation. Cinchona is the plant that produces quinine, which enabled us to survive malaria, which in turn enabled us and other European powers

to colonise Africa, parts of Africa. Then you've got rubber. I didn't realise rubber was a plant. It is a plant. Made huge profits for us and led to war in Malaya. Then we've got tea, of course, which led to war with China because of the opium wars, because we wanted to pay with opium for the tea.

It led to the loss of the American colonies. It led to the birth of modern-day marketing because tea was the first mass-market product. It led to labor exploitation around the world as we the first mass market product led to labor exportation around the world as we bought tea plantations and led to the change of the diet in india and britain because tea wasn't really drunk in india until the british introduced it there so through the medium of plants which britain the british empire changed the entire planet but also through garden plants a lot of our common garden plants like azaleas, rhododendrons

were first bought from the empire. Ferns, so-called fern mania was massive in the 19th century when every middle class home wanted a bunch of ferns in their drawing room. But this led to quite a lot of destruction from the places where ferns were found. And I suppose what really comes through, especially with the houseplants thing, is the truth, unassailable truth, that all of these things were what people wanted. It wasn't what people needed. It was just what they wanted. And the empire enabled them to get it. Yeah. Tea, sugar, chocolate to a degree. And I don't think we ever thought about the consequences of this.

I mean, sugar, enslavement, three millions of Africans sent across the Atlantic to produce some of these crops. But also the environmental damage, the soil erosion. The soil in Barbados was so sapped of its nutrients that they tried to import new soil in from Suriname. And we destroyed 60% of New Zealand's forests. And we introduced the so-called prickly pear to Australia,

which became a massive pest. So this history was amazing in that it was very entrepreneurial and it improved our lives, but almost always also caused oppression and destruction. And this is my argument in Empire World that opposite things can be true at the same time. So take us back to where the book starts, because there is a terrible irony here, isn't there, that your partner has chosen a holiday destination for you to try and get you to unwind after, you know, quite a full-on publicity schedule during your first book. And we'll come on to some of the hate that was involved in that too. So you go away to relax and to switch off

and to really not think about all of these things. And you go to Barbados. And what happens then? Well, she booked it, I've got to say. And it was the first holiday after COVID. Do you remember that first holiday? And I was just excited to get away but it turns out you can't really escape British colonialism

because we covered a quarter of the planet and actually influenced a huge amount of the planet outside that quarter as well and Barbados it turns out was an essential early part of the British Empire and obviously that was the place where we monetised slavery and made industrial sugar production possible of the British Empire. And obviously, that was the place where we monetized slavery and made industrial sugar production possible.

And the effects continue today. I mean, one of the richest MPs in Parliament today is Richard Drax. And it was his ancestor, James Drax, who was one of the first people to really make a success of sugar production in Barbados. And he's incredibly wealthy now, faces calls for reparations, quite a lot of anger still in Barbados. But a couple of weeks after my holidays,

Prince William and Kate turned up in the Caribbean and, you know, were waving from the back of a Land Rover, touching children through a wire fence. And it was a disastrous trip, even by their own admission. And this is what I realised whilst on holiday and afterwards. There's a gap between the way we talk about empire and the way the world understands empire, because they live with the consequences,

whereas we treat it as a kind of academic subject. Isn't there something that we should acknowledge, though, that is positive about how disastrous that tour was for them because it shows how times have changed. Because presumably, royal members, members of the royal family had been, you know, standing on top of Land Rovers forever when they visited parts of the Caribbean. It's just this time we saw it and went, no.

Suddenly, I don't know what changed. Suddenly everyone noticed it. And yeah, I think the royal family are actually quite woke, as it were. And their recent trip to Kenya was full of talk about colonialism and the legacies of it. But you mentioned Aden at the start of this.

You know, the East India Company was in Aden and we're bombing Yemen at the moment. I don't think we realise as a nation that we were involved there. I don't think we realise that we had a lot to do with creating the situation in Palestine. I don't think we realise we were responsible for the issues in Kashmir and Myanmar.

And I think we can't go around the world lecturing people about democracy and human rights and the environment without reflecting upon our distinctly patchy records on those things. Who does understand it? I mean, do any of the important players at the table representing us understand it? Do you have faith in Lord Cameron, the Foreign Secretary, to understand what the shadow is behind him? Actually, Cameron, before he became Foreign Secretary,

he did actually famously say that we shouldn't get involved in places like Kashmir when we caused the problems in the first place. And Jack Straw said something similar too. So we do have moments of insight, but they're not sustained. And they're definitely not as sustained as the insight is over there, where people live with the consequences of British decisions on a daily basis. of British decisions on a daily basis. The more that we stay with America, the more troublesome that becomes or the less troublesome that becomes? I think it's hard to separate them

because we forget that actually America was also part of the British Empire. This gets forgotten quite a lot. America likes to forget it too because they see themselves as the nation that took on the evil, the British Empire and kind of got it out of their system. But America, arguably, continued to follow the path of the British Empire. So I think you can't really separate the two. And when it comes to things like race, America and Britain have kind of moved in

tandem. I don't think you can separate them, really. I mean, there is some extraordinary language that comes out of politicians on both sides of the pond at the moment. You know, some of it has been named directly at you, and we'll come on to that personal experience in a moment. But what do you think when you hear people like Suella Braverman saying that actually she hugely admires the British Empire? She said she was very proud of the British Empire. Do you hear something akin to a bit of a whistle going on there? I hear someone who doesn't understand history and the complex nature of works.

I mean, the way we talk about empire in this country is always in that way, whether you're proud of it or ashamed of it. I don't think either of them leads to enlightenment. To say that you want to concentrate on the good things that empire did, it's like saying, I want to study the climate over the last 350 years, but I want to only focus on the sunshine. Or I want to focus only on the rain. You're not going to come to a great understanding, are you? You've got to understand both the rain and the sunshine and how they interact in ways which aren't good or bad.

Are there any parts of the empire the legacy of empire that you feel you can enjoy uh there was quite a notable little part in the the book actually when you were visiting a hotel in forgive me if i've got it wrong was it new delhi or old delhi one of those hotels and we can probably all picture it uh you that was celebrating you know the journey of empire, taking people back in time. I think they described it, didn't they, as the charm of colonialism. The charm of colonialism, yes.

But can you, could you stay in a place like that and just accept its place in history and like its perhaps architectural significance? I did stay there and I did like some things about it. There's so many legacy of the British Empire that actually are just neutral because it explains so much about daily life and we don't realise it. So tea, rum, invented in Barbados. Nations like Nigeria, Pakistan and Tehran, invented by the British.

Cities like Nairobi. Patterns of tax avoidance. Corporations like BP, HSBC, Shell. Can you just explain the thing about longitude and latitude and the way countries were drawn up in Africa? Because I thought that was really interesting. Oh, yeah. I mean, when you look at the lines,

the way in which countries are shaped in Africa, they're from very, very straight lines that don't follow natural forms or where ethnic groups live. And that's because it was carved up often by people who weren't even on the ground there. Famously, of course, partition in India. It was, again, an academic exercise carried out in Europe, which then permanently affected the lives of people on the ground.

And continues to. Continues to, yeah. I wanted to ask a quick question about LGBTQ rights because occasionally in Britain now we do pat ourselves on the back, maybe rightly, saying, you know what, this isn't a bad place to live. There are all sorts of freedoms we have in this country that we're a little bit smug about, actually, between ourselves. It's not like that in other parts of the world.

But in fact, we exported a degree of prejudice, didn't we? Yeah, we often like to lecture some of these countries about how they should be more enlightened. We introduced them to the homophobia in the first place. How though? That was the bit that I couldn't quite understand. Well, the Indian Penal Code was transferred to all sorts of colonies. So in 2018, 38 of the 72 nations that had anti-gay sex laws had inherited it either directly from the British or indirectly. So this Indian penal code, which banned gay sex, and has only been repealed recently in India, was then transferred and adopted by all sorts of nations around the world. And this was done partly because of a very real concern

that British men going out there to do their stuff on their own without partners, well, without partners from Britain anyway, that might be terribly tempting or wrong or dangerous. Yeah, corruptly. Well, the British Empire, you know, after, at least in the 19th century, became one about the civilising mission, you know, as about spreading British values, some of them great, like anti-slavery, but also banning, you know, uncivil practices like gay sex. And some of these societies were actually really quite enlightened about sexuality. And the British came along and passed these really brutal laws,

which remain in place even in the 21st century. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Our guest this afternoon is the writer Satnam Sanghera and his new book is out, Empire World. You talked before with your previous book on this programme actually about some of the abuse that you have received. And it got so bad, didn't it, that you actually stopped touring your book because of the people who came along. What did they say to you?

And do you think they felt better for saying it? How does a racist person feel after they've slung out a bit of abuse? Actually, I'm doing an event tonight at the Times, one of my first adult events, quite nervous about it. It was quite bad, but actually other imperial historians have had it worse. Davy Olusoga famously has a bodyguard. Professor Kareem Fowler, who wrote the National Trust Report, had called the police several times,

got scared of walking down the street alone, was libeled endlessly in the press. And I think there's a sustained campaign against woke imperial historians who offer alternative narratives on this stuff. And I've realised that actually actually because of all the shouting i've got to slightly focus on the positive which goes against my negative personality traits but um uh you know it has mostly it's been 85 positive i mean my first book empire land is used as a teaching resource in hundreds of schools and every day i get letters from students

who are studying history because of Empire Land. You know, it's been endorsed by some of the leading historians in the world. And I'm not an historian. And that is an amazing thing. But it's amazing how the racist abuse can overshadow everything else and actually can make you scared. And I'm not always scared. Sometimes it's funny.

You probably feel this too, right? Sometimes you see criticism and it's funny, and actually you share it because it's so amusing. Other times it crushes you. And sometimes you have to call the police. We've had one text this afternoon from someone saying, regarding Empire, am I supposed to be ashamed of what I didn't do?

And if so, why? I'm not responsible for what my great-great-grandfather did or my great-grandfather or even my grandfather. Absolutely. This is not about shame or pride. It's not about your feelings. History doesn't care about your feelings. It's about trying to understand it. It's like trying to understand Roman history or Stone Age history.

The thing is, it changes. Even our understanding of Roman history is changing all the time. Our understanding of Empire history is changing all the time. Our understanding of empire history is changing all the time, partly because the British imperialists suppressed a lot of the information at the time. There was said to be a pool of smoke over Delhi when we left because of all the documentation being burnt. But do you ever feel that when people chuck something at you,

actually what they want is for you to assuage their guilt, exactly like that, to make them feel better because then they wouldn't feel so angered by you. You've touched on a truth in order to make people angry, haven't you? I think because the British Empire was so big and also it touched many lives in Britain, and I think people take it very personally because their family might have been involved in it.

So if you observe anything negative about the British Empire, they take it as you're criticising their family. And also it quickly becomes a conversation about race, that poisonous subject. There'll be many, many people listening whose families are just a great chaotic mix of both sides of this experience. Exactly. Well, that's my point is that...

We're all involved in this in one way or another. One way or another. And Empire was democracy, it was instability, it was spreading the free press. It was press censorship. It was environmental destruction, but also environmentalism was born in empire. Can we just have a, I mean, you mentioned the royals and actually that they're relatively, certainly the current king has done his best.

I think most people would agree on race relations and trying to improve them. He has also given his backing to this bit, and is only a bit of independent research being done i think by you say by one phd student it's already being done so okay he gave his approval right so he didn't encourage it or start it but he's allowed it to happen and this person is going to report we think in 2026 on the links between the royal family and slavery. It's good, but it's poor compared to the Dutch royal family, who've commissioned a bunch of historians to look into. It's going to be embarrassing because the Dutch royal family obviously has a connection to the British royal family,

so they might discover things about the British royal family before our own royal family does anything about it. So we are falling behind on the international conversation, not just related to royalty, but also you've got the EU, own royal family does anything about it. So we are falling behind on the international conversation, not just related to royalty, but also, you know, you've got the EU, you've got Belgium, all these countries commissioning research, talking about reparations, whereas we just talk about whether empire was good or bad and have arguments about it.

And what about the money? I mean, you must be asked all of this all the time about, you know, I think the figure, what is it, kind of 108 trillion that this country would owe in reparations, you know, were it to actually be a transaction. Do you believe that there will come a time when this country does pay something physical back? I think that is the way it's going internationally. The conversations even happening in America about the money. I think the amounts lobbied around are ridiculous. We're nowhere near that.

We can't even talk about it yet, let alone work out the numbers. So I think we need to get to the stage where we can talk about it, where we can say slavery was a crime against humanity. We were massively involved. We also got rid of slavery, and that was a great thing. But talking about one thing doesn't mean you can't talk about the other. Where are you going on holiday next? I've got to find somewhere that isn't connected to the British Empire.

Maybe Vietnam? Okay. Or you could just, maybe the Isle of Wight? Is that safe? That's very much part of it. Channel Island, that's all British Empire, isn't it, really? I guess it is yes do you find it easy to switch off

no I'm a child of Punjabi immigrants we never went on holiday so I don't know how to do it well you did you went to the seaside one day we went to the western super mayor for a day trip and that was it I was very embarrassed when my mother produced

a whole Indian meal on the beach. But now I long for her to do that. Yeah, God, I mean, yes, that must be. I mean, Weston has its attractions. I've been there myself a few times. I've not been back since. Oh, well, you want to go? Really?

Yeah. I remember it being idyllic, but I was eight. Yeah, okay. And I've never left Wolverhampton. I'm not going to make a comment about Wolverhampton because it's a very, very interesting place. It is. It is. It really is.

This is why I talk about it endlessly. Yeah. And you also mention in the book how much you enjoyed against, not against your better judgment exactly, but you weren't expecting to enjoy the Commonwealth Games opening ceremony. And then you did. Yeah. And we haven't, unfortunately, I wish we had more time to discuss this.

But I think it's important to emphasise for the Carpers, let's just acknowledge they're out there. They're out there already, you won't be surprised to hear. But there is a lot you admire, and you actually do say that the Commonwealth has a potential to be a kind of forum for a place for proper post-colonial conversation. Yeah, the multiculturalism of the Commonwealth reflects British multiculturalism and my own existence.

I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the British Empire, so I don't have a simplistic hatred of it. Empire World is out tomorrow. It's by Satnam Sanghera. It was lovely to see him again. We really enjoyed our chat and we would both, as you say, hard recommend the book. Yeah, I mean, it is readable and sometimes books of this nature,

which are important and informative can be a strain and a bit of a struggle. This didn't feel like an effort. No. It really didn't and that's all that matters. Yeah and because he puts quite a lot of himself on the page doesn't he so you know he tells us about his holiday choices and how he feels when

he checks into the Oberoi and stuff like that and I find that really helpful. Yeah I said to you earlier that he really made me think about the holiday I'd had in Barbados years and years ago and I just didn't ask any questions at all about slavery and about what had gone on there and the impact on the island and why was it the way it was. It's embarrassing.

I don't think I was unusual at the time, but it still isn't an excuse I don't know there's more to come on the slave trade and reparations and everything isn't it I suppose the interesting thing would be to consider what you'd do now A. Would you go to Barbados

on an all inclusive holiday I think it's highly unlikely and if you did I think you would be absolutely out of the hotel gates day three you know trying to place yourself more and find out more things. I'd like to think so. I don't know, I'd love to hear from other people what what they think about it. Well I mean I think Britain is still wrestling with its links to the slave trade and I don't, this conversation has barely started and

has quite a long way to run. I think that's one way of putting it. Just quick shout out to the lady we mentioned yesterday who was in a place she didn't want to be. It's Hilary, who is in hospital. And Hilary, we're thinking of you. And she says, actually, I'm 64. I think they might have put me in a geriatric ward

for the first time in a long time. I'm the youngest by quite a long way. So every cloud, she says. You don't need to find silver linings. I think you're entitled to be a bit grumpy. You've had to go to hospital. Yes. And we really wish you well. And it sounds like a very frightening experience to have had. So I hope you're getting all of the care that you need and you'll be back home soon. Yes, very much hope so. Now, tomorrow's guest is Dame Stephanie Shirley, who is an entrepreneur, a philanthropist, a companion of honour.

She is over 90 years of age, always looks incredibly smart, incredibly well-dressed. It's very soon to be Holocaust Memorial Day and Dame Stephanie came to this country as part of the Kindertransport when she was just five. She was with her nine-year-old sister, it was just the two of them. She did see her parents again, but they never really reconnected. She's an incredibly inspirational woman who has given a huge amount to this

country. She's a computer coder. She made a succession of other women because she largely employed other women, millionaires. Don't give it all away. Noaires. Don't give it all away. No, I won't give it all away. Actually, her life was so extraordinary, we couldn't do it all in the interview. That's the problem. So we've tried to highlight the relevant bits of her story.

But she's just phenomenal, and she's someone that more people should know about, really. And she was recommended to us. A listener emailed to say, why don't you get Dame Stephanie Shirley on? And it was such a good idea. So please do feel free to do exactly that. And we were talking just one thing that we'd love to hear your thoughts about we were talking today about the possibility of conscription in this country it's not going to happen don't panic but there was a speech

given wasn't there by basically the head of the army saying that a kind of civilian force might have to be formed because recruitment and retention levels in the armed forces are so low. So we were talking on the show today about whether or not we would join up, whether our kids would join up, what kind of people we are now. Would we embrace that kind of call, kind of call to help out a nation? And I'd be very interested to hear people's thoughts about it because I think we now regard the army as being something that somebody else does unless our family is involved in it. I think we're quite

disconnected. Well, we've been allowed to be. Yeah, and I'd like to hear people's thoughts about that. Good idea. Thank you. Did I sound supportive? But the main thing to take from today to hear people's thoughts about that. Good idea. Thank you, sister. Did I sound supportive? But the main thing to take from today

is that if Eve ever offers you a lift in a car, say no. Absolutely. She says she can drive. She can't. But she can't. She can't. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio.

Good evening. Good evening. Good night. evening good night you did it elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast off air with jane garvey and fee glover we missed the modesty class our times radio producer is rosie cutler the podcast executive producer it's a man it's henry tried yeah he's an executive now if you want even more and let's face it who wouldn't then stick times radio on at three o'clock monday until thursday every week and you can hear our take

on the big news stories of the day as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing with us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts, Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna, from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.