Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Good luck finding your nipples

Episode Date: February 9, 2023

After their last live show before their holiday, Jane and Fi discuss smuggling diet coke into the studio and bad directions from the production team.They were also joined by Professor Dame Lesley Regan who is the UK's first women's health ambassador.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie CutlerPodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I think we do need to do some deep breathing don't we because we've had quite an afternoon of it we had an incredibly late guest I think guest that's just a really posh way of saying guest. Well, how was it that the Queen used to say yes? E-A-R-S. That's right. Yes. Yes. We had a very late guest. A very late guest. Oh dear. And we're a little bit giddy aren't we, because we're just about to go on holiday for a week so yes, my brain has already started to shut down a bit, I'm not quite sure that there'll be any

adverbs in this podcast at all Well don't stretch yourself, I think you're allowed to start the holiday here, sister. You're sipping from a is that a can of pop? It is Well I've had that can of pop on the go all the way through the program have you yes in defiance of all studio regulations yes because we're only allowed to have branded drinks right yes we are that's right i mean i shouldn't complain

i'm just about to that the the quality of hot beverage here is atrocious uh and every day i put in a plaintive plea for a hot tea. I mean, this has been happening since October the 10th, lest we forget. And there have been some miserable, miserable efforts at making me... And I'm sounding like an elderly dowager complaining about the quality of stuff. And that's exactly what I am, essentially. I am a broadcasting dowager.

Do you think that there's a connection between you complaining about the standard of beverages? And the really shitty. And the really bad beverages. I think there very well might be. So our guest today was Dame Professor Leslie Regan, a hugely important and significant woman. And she just got, well, mixed messages about what time and how to get here. And this is a very large building, isn't it?

I mean, it's not as large as the building it's next to, which perhaps is the real issue. I put it to you, sister, that the first time you came here, did you get it right? No, I struggled too. And it's ridiculous. Is it because to arrive at this building at London Bridge, you have to go to London Bridge Station?

Exactly. And it has about 17 different exits. Yes. Yeah. So there's that. But also, it's a building that's got its front at the back. Oh, is that it? Yeah.

Because if you think about it, the front of our building, honestly, there's content in here somewhere. Oh, it's just brilliant, isn't it? The front of our building doesn't face the road, does it? No, it doesn't. It's at the back. So I'm completely sympathetic towards people who struggle to find it. To everybody who can't find an enormous building.

Yes. But it was very unfortunate because Leslie Regan's time is precious. And obviously, we're only allowed to stay on air until five. So we did have to slightly squish the interview. But she was brilliant. And she answered all of our questions. Well, she's really interesting. And I think what is properly interesting is that this is the first time a government, this is actually an England initiative, has focused on women's health and I do think it's worth saying that women do live longer than men which is often something that's thrown out there as an illustration that what is there to tackle? Women live longer than men but the whole point is that they're living longer in poor health

towards the end of their life, and that's what needs to change. But I suppose we might lead to a situation where women are living a lot longer than men, although men are now catching up, aren't they? So there's obviously a lot of work to be done here. Yeah, and the statistics are just incredibly poor about the outcomes for women in lots of different situations and she busted some myths so i didn't i didn't think that you could stay on hrt for the

whole of your life the message that i've always had about hrt is to take the lowest dose for the least amount of time and she said no there's just no empirical evidence for that at all. But also we're still slightly the guinea pig generation, aren't we, of women who would have started taking HRT, you know, a lot of women taking HRT, and who might want to carry it on for possibly 40 years. I remember a couple of years ago, the statistic for women who could take HRT and were taking it, it's actually really low. It's about 12%. So there's an enormous number of women who could be helped by it if they chose to take it or it was made available to them. And I think it's not easy at the moment. I mean, it's laughable. I've genuinely, and I haven't been ill, so I'm hugely fortunate. I have not seen a doctor in as long as I can remember. And from what I can gather of my mates a doctor in as long as I can remember.

And from what I can gather of my mates who use the same practices as I do or would do if I needed to go. It's so it's so difficult to get an appointment. And so the idea that I would suddenly need to request an HRT appointment. I think it must be bloody difficult. Every woman will say, oh, yeah, I'll go and see the doctor about HRT. I think it might help. But then something else will crop up and they'll think of it, well, I'm not an emergency. And if they ring the doctor, they'll be told, or they'll be asked, is it an emergency?

And that woman will say, no. And they just won't go, will they? So I bet there's been a real drop-off in women getting HRT because they haven't been able to get an appointment. I'm sure that's true. I was reading something on the NHS website about a particular issue the other day, and it said this is something that you should ask your GP about

at your regular health checks. I just thought, what? What are those? But Leslie's point is that there might one day, or should be one day, these one-stop shops where women can get contraception can get smears uh can discuss hrt can have antenatal care if they require it and can pop along with the baby when the baby gets weighed after the baby's born if indeed they've had one um and it does there is a logic to that because as she points out lots of women um when they when they seek medical attention they are

not ill they are just looking for contraceptive advice or for treatment about pregnancy. It's just really complicated. And can I just put in my little tuppence worth for the men? Because we did also talk about this fantastic article that's in the Saturday Times magazine today about prostate cancer, from which you and I both learnt huge amounts about something that isn't discussed

at all and I think you know everything that we talk about with regards to women's health I think it is always worth noting that if we make advances we should be taking everybody along with us in the same way that we would have hoped we were brought along for the ride too. Yeah and actually he Jeremy ends that article by just saying to men you know if you're in any way unsure ask for advice about your prostate don't just accept whatever's happening. And also just that simple point about men not visiting doctors so I think as women we do get used to being poked and prodded around you know know, I've definitely been to the doctor since I was, you know, 11, 12 years old because of reproductive things

and fertility things all the way through. But I think for young boys, going to a doctor only happens when something, you know, becomes seriously wrong with you. They don't have the same kind of intervention and that definitely plays into the man who doesn't go until something is so bad, nothing can be done. So actually also, I have gay female friends who don't have the relationship with the doctor that I've had because they haven't needed the contraceptive stuff going on. So that can be a curious distancing thing as well.

So I would just say to leslie regan and her profession don't if you're having for example one of the really gloomy um symptoms of the menopause can be i mean not always but flooding you know and you just suddenly start bleeding really heavily that kind of thing you can be helped but you can't be helped unless you ask for help and i just think sometimes you say the most remarkably insightful things i just i did but yes thank you. But I just think with things like that that are messy and a bit embarrassing, there's an inclination just to think, oh, God, where do I start? I'm just going to stay home and weep. Yeah, and honestly, there is help out there.

Bearing in mind you can get past the receptionist and secure yourself an appointment. Right, would you like to do the email that has the extraordinary sentence, in 1976, I begat four extra nipples? Yes. It's from, we'll keep it anonymous. I've been waiting for this and now I can write, says this contributor. You are very welcome and thank you. I've got an extra nipple and when I was pregnant for the first time in 1976,

I begat four extra nipples on the left side all the way to the belly button, three of which faded away after the birth. My husband, an anatomist, convinced me this was entirely normal and if you look at animal teats they grow in a line to feed all the progeny. Well mine did, harking back to some ancient civilisation and it was quite humbling really. Honestly I did not know that happened and thank you. Also, I'm sitting watching Vera from Sunday night after having spent the afternoon at Moorfields, that's the eye hospital in London, having a monthly injection into my left eye because of AMD, which is wrong reason. Old age sucks, but I'm not bothered because I'm still here to moan about it. I was listening

to you two in the waiting room, of course, and smiling. Thank you for that, too. I did plough through Vera. And actually, this last episode, I did think it was a cop out who the killer was. It didn't seem very likely to me or especially plausible. So I know it's not Anne Cleaves. She didn't write that episode, but it was quite a long one. It felt like a long one. And I just didn't think it ended all that satisfactorily. Anyway, thirdly, I've been following you for years

and saw your show with Claire Balding in the Bridge Theatre where I lost my mobile in the bowels of the costume department, but that's another story. What were you doing in the costume department? When I talk about you with enormous affection and my daughters worry about me and tell me that you're not my friends, I tell them they're wrong.

I love lots of different podcasts being visually impaired, but you continue to be my favourite. Never doubt your influence and never go on holiday, thanks. P.S. I have seven great friends and a gay husband, so please don't worry about me. P.P.S. I love that Jane bought a ready-made

for her dinner party, inspirational. Yeah, don't seek inspiration from me on any front and certainly not in the kitchen. But we need to apologise because we are just about to go on holiday. You're going on holiday? I'm not quite. Well, you're you are on holiday. I'm just not going on holiday. I'm not going to work. There's a lot to unpick there. Seven great friends, gay husband. So please don't worry about me. Why would you? I don't know what that sentence, what does that sentence say to you?

I think it says that there may be cause to worry about our correspondent, but she has dealt with the areas that needed to be worried about and she's fine with it. Okay, good. That's what I'm going to take from it. But if you need to get back in touch, we are here for you. Yeah, and I'm really glad that we were able to keep you company while you wait at Moorfields. I know somebody who regularly goes there for appointments

and I know that I'm not criticising the establishment, but the waiting can be considerable at Moorfields Eye Hospital. And I suppose there's no problem at all in having a gay husband as long as you know he's gay and he knows he's gay. But it's a problem if he doesn't or you don't. It certainly is, particularly if he doesn't. Yes. So maybe we do need a little follow-up.

But I'm very glad that you've got seven great friends and we are your friends. I mean, the weird thing is, you might find that people say you're odd for thinking you're friends with people who do a podcast. But the really spooky thing is that we think that you're our friend through doing the podcast too yeah so your friends are wrong when they say that we're not we're stalking you yeah

but we've only got well i can't speak for fee i continue to only have two nipples and i'm now beginning to feel a bit short-changed i might make more of an effort to find another one have you just not looked i haven't had the time for you. I've been that busy working. Well, there we are. I can do that next week. Do report back. The recent email about the Simon Langton Girls' School pool brought back a fond memory contrary to the other listeners. In the early 1970s, we lived in a house that backed onto the school

where I was also a pupil. A quick jump over the fence out of school hours and the pool was ours. It was often cold, but I don't remember algae. Me, my younger siblings and our friends made very good use of it, never with adult supervision, but always with our Labrador. Oh, God. Parenting styles were a bit different back then. We were never caught until our beloved dog, who was a great escape artist, took to jumping the fence during school hours.

And one day we emerged from the changing room for our swimming class to jumping the fence during school hours and one day we emerged from the changing room for our swimming class to find the dog happy swimming up and down the game was up when he jumped out to greet me and the staff put two and two together we stopped using the pool for at least a week before we went back oh that's lovely amanda absolutely fantastic and linen dorset weighs in with some useful advice on brushing your teeth. I usually fall asleep listening to your podcast. Thank you. Tonight I didn't and heard your debate about whether to clean your teeth before or after breakfast. I used to clean my teeth and use mouthwash when I got up because, as you said,

that's you, your mouth is dry and foul with bacteria. I then found I was doing it all wrong because you shouldn't use toothpaste and mouthwash at the same time. Shouldn't you? Oh, I've heard that, yes. OK, I now use mouthwash when I get up and then brush my teeth after breakfast and start the day with a nice fresh mouth. That's Lynne from Dorset with a nice fresh mouth.

I think I was going for an advertiser. I have a very, very poor record of going for ad jobs. But I thought I did nice fresh mouth in quite a good way there. Yeah, I think you did too. You know, I came second to be the voiceover for quite a leading supermarket. I know, darling. I'm so sorry. And it's gone downhill, actually, I think, since you didn't get the job. I think it has as well.

We may need to get a dentist on to tell us the actual facts. We tried, didn't we? About a fresh mouth. Did we? Yeah, you couldn't come on. Remember, the technicals didn't work yesterday. Oh God, that's where it all started. Yeah, it was where it all started.

I forget, sorry. I've slightly flicked the switch into holiday mode. Shall I do the read into our main guest, Jane? Yes, go on. Here we go. Although women in the UK on average live longer than men women spend a significantly greater proportion of their lives in ill health and disability and that is a fact for the 51% of women

who make up the UK's population and to try and change this gray picture of women's health along comes the women's Health Strategy. So this is the government programme that is aiming to make everything better for all of us. Dame Professor Leslie Regan is the ambassador for it. A couple of other things about her. She is currently the Professor of Obstetrics at Imperial College, and she was the second only woman to hold the role of President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. I can see why they just call them OB-YGNs, GYNs, OB-GYNs, OB-GYNs. Well, it's a Star Wars character as well.

Anyway, we asked her about the most important thing that this strategy does. I think the most important thing it does is shine a light on women's health across the life course and thinks about the preventative things that we can help women access and improve their access to health care and also maintenance care because the vast majority of times when women and girls across their life course go to see healthcare professionals, they're not actually ill. They're trying to do things like get contraception, or have antenatal care, you know, manage their menopause, you know, these are not necessarily illnesses. And we've made it very, very difficult for them to access good care. So I think shining a spotlight is really important. And, you know, you can see from the media, over the last year, since the strategy was announced that people have got very excited about it, you know, they're very pleased about it. And, you know, you can see from the media over the last year, since the strategy was

announced, that people have got very excited about it. You know, they're very pleased about it. And I think it's going to reduce that health gap, because there was an enormous amount of data for you to show that women really have been very, very disadvantaged by healthcare services over the last decade or so. Is the difference between a strategy and policy just one of funding? Well, it's not just one of funding. I think it's also a question of mindset. And I think a lot of people have sort of said to me, well, how's this going to happen? How are you going to implement the strategy? So if I go back a moment, the strategy, if you've glimpsed at it, glance at it, is very aspirational. The actual strategy doesn't

contain an implementation plan. I suppose that's my job with the team I'm working with at DHSC and farther afield. But what I think we can do by having a strategy is get everyone to focus on how we can do things better. And I often say to a woman I'm talking to, or a man for that matter, you know, the women that you love in your life, you want them to be able to go and access things simply, quickly, preferably one visit away from the workplace or their educational place and not have to go around lots and lots of different places to get things which are really not complicated. None of this is rocket science. We're just saying maintenance care prevention rather than the I suppose the disease structure that I was taught to practice in which is a disease intervention service. Yeah you know exactly

the question I'm asking which is you know at what point do you as the ambassador become frustrated because all of these great aims that are there in the strategy can't actually happen because there isn't the money available I mean particularly at the moment there might not even be the staff available to make this kind of change. Well I have been visiting over the last six eight months I've been visiting women's health hubs different models across the country and what's really quite uplifting about that is that there are a lot of people in those hubs who are providing really good care and are very proud of the service that they're providing. So I think my job is to really encourage good leadership and actually implementing strategies with common sense approaches and recognising that one size doesn't fit all. We've got to have different setups to look after different groups of women.

You know, rural health is going to be different to urban, to groups with particularly disadvantaged women. For example, I was talking to the woman who commissions all of the health service for women in prisons. I mean, why do we do this so badly? And she was pointing out to me that one of the problems is that it's difficult for female prisoners to access clinic appointments because they have to have two officers to accompany them.

So I said, well, why are we doing that? Why can't't we go to them so I think there are all sorts of different models we could implement and then if you actually prevent people having or women having serious problems you find that there's a lot more money in the pot yeah another example is post-delivery contraception which is one of my hobby horses during the pandemic for the first time in 30 years as a consultant gynecologist I was able to arrange for women to go home with the baby in one hand and a year's worth of contraception either in their bag or in their arm or in their womb in the other and what we know now from the business model is that if you prevent all those complications that occur because of very short inter-birth intervals that you actually save not 10 pounds which is the usual public

health model for one pound spent on contraception you save 10 if you do it post-delivery and prevent maternity complications you save 32. Can we talk about some of the very dark things that have happened in women's health over the last couple of years. I mean, if we just took maternity services, the inquiry into the Shrewsbury and Telford Trust, for instance, revealed so much pain and so much bad practice. How can it be in the modern age that that happened in plain sight? You know, you work in this area. I don't know whether all of it came under your time when you were president of the society, but why isn't there more conversation?

Why did that stay in a silo for such a long time? I wish I knew all the answers, and I won't pretend that I do. But what I do understand is that our maternity workforce are incredibly hard pushed. Now I'm not going to make excuses for bad practice and there's a lot to change and improve but joint training with midwifery colleagues and obstetric colleagues is crucial and all the other people that feed into it, anaesthetists, everything else, really important and I know that the RCOG has taken forward the work that I started on trying to improve and understand what good looks like in labour wards. Now, I know that's small steps, but it is starting. And I think we've got to also find some way of retaining the workforce, because if you're a midwife and you're

quite junior, and it's three o'clock in the morning, and you're looking after three different women, it's quite difficult to know how to prioritise. So one of the things that the RCOG and the Royal College of Midwives, who I've managed to successfully encourage to move into the RCOG a couple of years ago, have been working on, is what you actually tell the most junior person on the team that they need to do. And usually it's escalating things quickly. Why did it get to the stage in Shrewsbury and Telford

that their ca cesarean rate had been allowed to absolutely plummet? And not only was it not challenged, there was a time when it was actually widely celebrated for its low cesarean rate. That should never have happened, should it? No, I would agree with you, Jane. And then I think there are different, there are lots of different factors in that because, and again, I'm not excusing anybody but there have been directives from NHSE and the maternity transformation program to reduce cesarean section rates. Yes well let's talk about that what is the current directive on cesarean rates? Well I don't know the actual number because maternity is not really in my remit but certainly the figures overall are between 25 and 30 percent and then until very

recently that was thought to be thought to be extraordinarily high. For what a western society? Well for individual maternity well pregnant women in the UK. Right but why yes I'm a bit puzzled I don't understand why pregnant women in the UK should have a lower or higher cesarean rate than any other part of the world. No I'm not saying that they should do but I'm just bit puzzled. I don't understand why pregnant women in the UK should have a lower or higher cesarean rate than any other part of the world. No, I'm not saying that they should do, but I'm just saying that the reason why I think Shrewsbury and Telford celebrated their low cesarean rate... Was because they thought they were doing the right thing. Well, because they thought they were being told that they had to work towards that. So that confusion has been, that's been called out and that would no longer happen?

and that would no longer happen? I hope so because what I hear from women that I'm talking to and the midwifery staff that I talk to in my home base is that women are now allowed to request a caesarean section on demand. And a lot of women will read these stories and think that's the only way that I should deliver because I'm worried about safety. And that, of course, also stores up problems for the future. Are you pretty certain that nothing like Shrewsbury and Telford

could ever happen again? Well, we know that that's not the case because East Kent is being investigated and Nottingham is being investigated now. I mean, when you say that, this is very damning, isn't it? In the 21st century, in a very sophisticated society that our maternity services are in many cases inadequate and in other cases downright dangerous how have we let that happen well i think i think it's fair to say that we've been a bit complacent about what we're good

at and um and we thought we've sorted all these things out. So I mentioned contraception earlier. We know we have a 45% unplanned pregnancy rate in this country. 45? 45%. That means nearly half of all the pregnancies are unplanned. And when you talk to women about why it is that they've got this very short inter-birth interval, which I mentioned earlier to you, you'll find that most of them who, for example, are requesting abortions, the rate has gone up quite significantly these are not young women these are women in their late 30s and 40s

who tell me that they can't access long-acting reversible contraception cervical smear screening has improved a little bit over recent months but certainly the statistics just as we went into the pandemic and they're likely to be worse now showed that that we were at a 20 year all time low for cervical screening, which was something that the UK, you know, pioneered some years ago to prevent cervical cancer. It's a preventable disease, cervical cancer. I've heard you talking very passionately about the menopause and the menopause in the workplace and the fact that companies, organisations have got to acknowledge the existence of the menopause because they need their female workforce to work and to work happily. So HRT, should every woman be allowed to be on it? Well, I think every woman should be given the information she needs to make the right decision.

And I'm not avoiding your question, but I really think that what we've got to do is provide them with really good information and explain to them what their individual risks are, which again are not difficult, and to have an open mind about the benefits of HRT as well as the potential complications. So since 2003, 2004, when those two very big studies came out, which we now know were very flawed in the way they analysed the data,

it was thought that HRT was an absolute devil of a potion because it gave women cancer and it did all sorts of other awful things. And we now know that's not the case. So, for example, breast cancer. Every woman, when you talk to them about, oh, what about breast cancer? Because there's some sort of zeitgeist about this. You know, oh, it's going to cause breast cancer. Every woman, when you talk to them about, oh, what about breast cancer? Because there's been some sort of zeitgeist about this, you know, oh, it's going to cause breast cancer. And yes, there is a small but finite increase in the number of cases of breast cancer in women who are taking combined HRT, oestrogen and progesterone, not if they're taking oestrogen

alone. And that's really important, but there is no increase in the mortality or long-term morbidity. And that's really important, but there is no increase in the mortality or long-term morbidity. So this is not killing people because most women on HRT are having regular mammography and screening. And there is a lot of data now to show that women on HRT who start off in their 50s are protected for a longer period of time against osteoporosis and frailty, cardiovascular disease. And there's even some recent studies suggesting that it actually postpones dementia. And is it safe to take it for the whole of the rest of your life? Well, again, I think that depends on the individual woman.

I'll give you a personal example. I've had breast cancer, and I know that something else is going to kill me. So I find that when I'm taking HRT, I can function, I can remember things, and I don't have aching joints. But aching joints, that's the killer. That's the killer. I mean, it's not a killer, it's just a nuisance.

And as one woman said to me just the other day, I said to her, how's your sleep? And she turned around and she said, well, how did you guess? I said, because I know. It's awful. So is it no longer believed that you should take it in the lowest dose for the shortest possible time? I don't think there's data to suggest that. I think that that data emanates back to those scare stories

when it was realised that some women had to have, because their symptoms were so severe, they had to have some, and it was assumed that it should be a slow dose for the shortest amount of time. that it should be a slow dose for the shortest amount of time. So part of the strategy includes the willingness and the aim for workplaces to have a menopause workplace pledge. But that's not law, is it? And actually encompassing menopause rights and employment law has been rejected by the government. So it's the same

kind of question as the place that we started from. And I don't mean to be cynical about this at all. But what is it that the strategy can do? I mean, good companies will treat their menopausal women well. Bad companies just won't take any notice of a pledge. Isn't that an eternal problem? Yeah, but I think there's again, there's again quite a lot of traction. So for example, I chair Wellbeing of Women, a charity which set up, well, which invented this menopause workplace pledge. You don't have to pay to get one. But we started off with, you know, half a dozen companies and then a few of the civil service departments wanted to say that they were going for looking after women and retaining them in the workforce, as opposed to them leaving at 45 or 50 when they're at their most experienced and that they're most valuable or productive. And I think the figures that I saw when I was talking to our chief executive

yesterday was there's over two and a half thousand companies in the UK have signed up to this now. Okay. And so I think there is quite a lot of traction. I mean, you can't open the newspaper, can you? Or your phone. Without someone banging on about their menopause, Lesley. Exactly. You can't listen to Times Radio. So now what I want to do is rather than worry about it, and I know that the government reaction to this was that they weren't going to make it, they weren't going to provide leave for it. And I think the rationale he was because they're focusing on trying to get people or trying to get women and their employers to understand how to support women in the workplace and keep them there. But my guess would be, and I could be wrong, that overwhelmingly HRT is taken by gobby, entitled, middle-class women. And that there are plenty of women who could really benefit from it,

but have actually never known brilliant health in their life and don't know how good they might feel or how much better they could feel if they had access to it. Do you think that is an issue? I think that a lot more women have read now about the fact that there is help out there. And that's one of the things that we've got to implement with this strategy. And as I say, one of the main commitments of the strategy

is to make the NHS website the best place in the world for women to go to for information on women's health. And at the moment, it's not that place? It's not very good at the moment, but it is getting there. In fact, the team went yesterday to an all-day meeting about the next steps forward. And I think that that is a real aspiration because I think what we really

have to do if we want to improve things and we want to do better for less resource is we've got to get women to be part of the solution so i think that most of the women i've ever spoken to in my in my medical capacity if i explain to them and people wanted at different levels i know but if i explain to them carefully what it is they need to do to prevent themselves and or to maintain their health they not only do they usually do it but they tell everybody else they know about it so I think we've got the potential for 51% of the population to be mini ambassadors yeah I know that we can't keep you forever but just two final questions from me anyway.

There is only one mention of abuse in the strategy, and it is simply to assess the health impacts of violence against women and girls. Do you think there maybe should have been more? Well, there's a priority. One of the eight priorities to look at is violence against women and girls. So I didn't know that it was only mentioned, the word abuse was only mentioned, but there is quite a lot mentioned about strategies to improve and reduce violence against women and girls. OK. What do you know now that you didn't know when you started in your, what is, just a glorious, successful career? a glorious successful career? I didn't know that my failures were going to be so much more valuable and teach me so much more than the things I was in quotes successful with and I think that...

What are your failures? Oh all sorts of things you know things I didn't manage to get or manage to achieve or people I didn't persuade to do what I wanted to do about things but you learn so much from them and uh and I think you also I suppose those showed me ways of going around things that someone sort of said to me the other day you're very persistent aren't you so yes I am and I'm I'm you know incurably optimistic I really think that we can really seize this opportunity because at the end of the day whatever you think about the political situation in the last year or so, this is the only time that the government has said we are going to prioritise women's health. And so I can't, with all the stuff I've been banging on about for 30 plus years, I can't ignore that. And I have to

pick it up and run with it. And I am just so enthusiastic about how much positivity has been generated. Every day I get emails from people I've never met and saying, can I do something to help? So that was our guest this afternoon, Dame Professor Lesley Regan. And it was lovely to meet her. And actually, we could have talked to her for an awful lot longer. So I hope we covered the basics that if you are listening, you wanted us to ask her about. Yeah, and I think her full-throated, wholehearted support for HRT is interesting. Coming from somebody in her position,

with her medical history, to say, I'm staying on it, I think is interesting. And also someone who's had breast cancer. That's what I mean, yeah. I know that every circumstance is different and presumably there are drugs that interfere with HRT and HRT interferes with some drugs, but that's interesting to hear as well

because I always thought if you'd had breast cancer and you were on any kind of drug programme afterwards, then HRT was just completely and utterly... Well, unfortunately unfortunately that is still yes but other people in the medical profession still do think that and it can lead to some real confusion and heartache for women who've had breast cancer I think and I just there was it was it was a study it was a study that has now been debunked but it's still out there and I don't want to be rude about GPs because I mean I've been treated by some great ones over the years, but they aren't experts.

And so I think a lot of women encounter a GP who simply doesn't know that much about women's health, which is exactly why this government strategy could be so significant. I did try explaining some of my menopausal symptoms to some incredibly competent incredibly competent and very nice very young GPs and I found it so difficult to get across the magnitude of what those symptoms were actually doing to my life and and I do think uh I mean it's absolutely the point that you're making that um we just need to do a little bit more to make people, everybody understand that it's not moaning. It's not moaning. No, it's not moaning.

You're actually trying to be very positive about rather a nasty situation that you've found yourself in. Yeah. And when you're the patient trying to explain to the doctor, you know, what's kind of going wrong, it's just difficult. It's difficult. I always bow to that greater wisdom that I believe the medical profession to have yes and some some do yeah no no totally i mean lifesavers but on the whole i think if you go in there and ask for hrt they

should just hand it over but of course there is an issue with availability don't get me started um there's so many things we could have we about it. Actually, she did say she'd like to come on again. So now she knows the way. I think perhaps that we will have cleared the path for her and perhaps another visit will be in the diary. Absolutely. Right. So that's it

from us for this week. It is Callum and Chloe in your feed with their big interview for the next week. I hope you have a lovely time, whatever you're doing, Jane. Good luck finding your nipples. Thank you. Speak to you Monday afternoon. Yes, and you're going to be, he's going to be on the slopes.

So we await a full, a full account of everything that's happened. It's a very posh resort. It's, well, you know it's not. You naughty, naughty minks. You know it's not. We're going on a very, very low-budget skiing experience. Now I really want to hear about it. I just want everyone to come back and walk me.

I'm sure they will. Have a good time. We're back Monday, February the 20th. Until then, take care. And Callum and Chloe will keep you company next week. listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you liked what you heard and thought hey, I want to listen to this but live, then

you can, Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off the air very soon. Goodbye.