Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Got anything else in your locker, William? (with Jon Holmes)

Episode Date: August 5, 2024

What grade would William Shakespeare receive at university? Would TV characters live longer if they just closed their curtains? What would Jane and Fi's detective show be called? This episode answers all the big questions! Plus, Fi speaks to comedian and broadcaster Jon Holmes about his podcast 'Jon Holmes Says the C-Word'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It would be funny if you went to university now and came out with a tutu. Misunderstood, like myself. Yeah, sentences today don't make sense, mate. It doesn't rhyme. Well, we move on to another week. Welcome to it. It's Monday. It's a little bit cooler in London town, which is very nice.

Did you get better sleep over the weekend? Well, I think so, yes. But I'm still very much on the dawn chorus. So I think this morning was a bit of a lie in at 5.47. Oh, that's good, isn't it? Yeah. So I've got a proper old-fashioned clock in my bedroom, which I can just about see with my dozy eyes.

I was going to say, because you're not really blessed with the greatest eyesight. Well, it is definitely, it's diminished. Anyway, I can just about see it, but also, you know, you can tell, can't you, the type of light that's coming in through the blinds. And I can see on the long hand the minute hand if it's kind of hovering somewhere between half past five and six i think that might as well get up might as well get up might as well that is the clarion cry of the

middle-aged woman but it's not something that the rest of the household can really relate to is it no i don't really get this no i with you, I might as well get up One of my two did have to attend a meeting this morning so we were up early, nice and early but I love, do you know what I get so much done in those early hours of the day

This is why I don't understand why the rest of the world can't understand this But then I think it's a terrible cruelty in your old old age when you keep waking up early because that's when it would be really helpful if you could just sleep until midday. You know, just get up

in time for the lunchtime news. Yeah, but in later life you can watch the lunchtime news and then you just find your eyes closing. I mean, I do it myself on a Friday afternoon by my eyes closing at about 2.30. Oh, I like a proper kip. Back in bed kip. Oh, we'll discuss this. I don't agree with that, as you know. I think it's slovenly. I think it's not something anyone should do. Just go into an easy chair. I tell you what,

it helps people's moods, Jane. I don't believe it for a minute. Now today, did you see the story I put on the WhatsApp group about Robert, the peculiar Kennedy, who's running for the American presidential election? Well, I did see you pop something up there, but do you know what? I've read so many peculiar stories about that man. I'm a little bit loathe to devote my time to him. It doesn't get much odder than admitting

that you've dumped a bear carcass somewhere. I confess I saw the headline, read the first couple of lines and just thought, oh, like you, this bloke's properly bonkers. But, I mean, he's still in it. Anyway, OK, we don't live there, we live here. And frankly, it's not been the easiest weekend here either. So we probably should acknowledge that. He does have quite a huge following though, Jen, doesn't he?

Yeah, I know he does. But as we know, there are loads of really weird and frankly hateful people with large followings. Which, yeah, I think most of us in Britain have spent the last couple of days feeling a bit sick and quite depressed. And there is something, I know it's kind of fatuous to make the weather relevant, but actually the weather is relevant because you just don't get riots on the whole when it's sleeting.

No. You just don't. And if you look back through all of the trouble that we've had in this country over the last 40 years... It's always been. You know, hot summer nights are obviously when the worst of it happens and it is fuelled by alcohol, enormously so, and it's just really sad what's happening. and also just that gulf that's emerged here and it must be the same wherever

you're listening to this between the very sensible condemnatory utterances that are given by people in positions of authority so our prime minister minister, our home secretary, the regional mayors, local community leaders, they've all been saying the same thing, which is your thugs, a lot of you are just motivated by hate and racism. You know, there isn't a point at which we're going to engage, you know, with whatever it is that you want. Well, if you ask them what they want, they can't tell you.

Yeah. But the likelihood of the majority of those people even hearing those voices now, because they're delivered on mainstream media, or if they get to outside of the mainstream media, they're chopped up and played around with. So just having a discussion now is almost impossible. And I was listening to our own radio station this morning, and I thought the coverage was absolutely superb. You know, everybody was saying the right kind of thing. People were saying very interesting things. And you just think...

It's all very well, but... Just, you know, I absolutely, I agree. But you've got to put this on a tannoy and drive it down the street somewhere else. Because, you know, if we were listening to other stuff this morning or we were on Signal or Telegram or any of the other mediums through which these messages are being carried, I would have been incandescent and probably very frightened.

Yeah, well, quite. And there's obviously an element of preaching to the choir, isn't there? Well, there is, but I don't know where we go because this gulf is not going to lessen. No, it's going to get worse. And people are very, I think, right to say there are real concerns about integration or lack of it in parts of Britain, as I'm sure there are elsewhere in the world. Well, there definitely are elsewhere in the world.

There are some important issues that do need to be addressed, but you don't address them by lobbing a chair through the window of a Holiday Inn Express or trying to harm a police officer. I mean, you know, the police have had so much stick in this country over the last couple of years for some very, very, very good reasons. But by God, you wouldn't have been a police officer in Britain over the last couple of days. No, and I also, this is such a tiny point,

but for so many of them, they would have had their leave cancelled. And so many of them, obviously, their parents taking their kids abroad for their once a year holiday, whatever it is, you just think, wow, wow, wow. But that is a tiny point. But sometimes it's only the tiny points that my brain can actually compute with at the moment.

It is worth saying, there are happier things in the world aren't there like the book club like the off-air book club oh do you know what can i just say i'm so glad you've come around to book club jane because you weren't as big as a fan at the start it's because i didn't really enjoy my own book club was i in it how long was i in it for i can't remember i used to hate having to read books i think there's it just took me back to being a student where but it's your job it's a bit different here but i i love to read i like to choose what i read i finally come around by the way to the bee sting by paul murray have you read that no because it gets it

keeps winning prizes every single person i know says oh have you read the bee sting and i think shit i haven't and i keep it's very prominent in all the bookshops. And so I have bought it now. It's quite chunky. So if I don't like it, heads are going to roll. But what was good about Susie Steiner's book was that I think almost everybody, I would say 90% of people who corresponded with us,

enjoyed that book. And I have just started reading her first book that's not connected to... It's her only book the other the only other book and um I'm really enjoying that as well very different it's about a farming family so if you're not into detective stuff you could try this one it's called home coming yeah yeah um well I'm glad that you're fully on board because what I and I've always loved book clubs I really really love book clubs. But you didn't do a literature degree, did you?

Were you told to read? Like, I could not stand being told. I don't know why I chose English. Or maybe it chose me. Maybe it's the only thing I could get in to do. I should have done something else all along time ago. Carry on. I really love being asked to read stuff by other people

because otherwise, you know, that algorithm thing, especially at the moment, and even actually, you know, the kind of books that I'm drawn to in bookshops, I find to be exactly the same kind of thing. I get a bit of a panic in a bookshop these days. It's just too much. So I'll head for something that I kind of think I know I'm going to like. So I've really enjoyed all these recommendations much so i'll head you know i'll head for something that i i kind of think i know i'm gonna like so

i've really enjoyed all these recommendations and obviously we are looking for the next book club suggestion and the usp if you're new to this is that it just has to be something that has slightly gone under the radar so not stuff that has won prizes not stuff that's necessarily been in the bestseller lists but something that you might have come across where you just prizes, not stuff that's necessarily been in the bestseller lists, but something that you might have come across where you just go, oh my God, that's amazing. So it's the book that you press into the hand of a stranger, but you'd also say, can I have that back when you finish with it?

Don't keep it. Because that does happen, doesn't it? Yeah. If you hadn't done an English degree, what do you think you would have been better suited to? I've ended a sentence with a preposition there, Jane. I don't know why I've done that. Unforgivable. Well, I don't know. I mean, there was nothing else I could possibly

have done. I just think, do you know what? I wonder whether they do it differently now. And actually, of course, English degrees are terribly unfashionable, aren't they? English A-level, apparently, is now completely unfashionable. Everyone does maths, which obviously is brilliant. And, you know, it's brilliant if you can do maths A-level, well done you. But I was reading something about this, was it on Friday? English is just nowhere near as popular as it used to be. I think that's a terrible shame. Well, it really is a shame because as a country

that's provided the likes of William Shakespeare, he didn't go to university, though, did he? No. Was it because university hadn't been invented? Yes. It would be funny if he went to university now and came out with a tutu. Yes, misunderstood like myself. His sentences today don't make sense, mate.

It doesn't rhyme. All you women go mad. That's been my beef with him. Have you got anything else in your locker, William, or just women going mad? Yes, it is a real shame. That's been my beef with them. Have you got anything else in your locker, William? Or just women going mad? Yeah. Yes, it is a real shame. But I suppose just because English degrees are not popular doesn't mean we won't carry on producing some of the world's greatest writers.

Or does it? I think our publishing listeners, we've got lots of people who listen to the podcast here in publishing, they could probably inform us a little bit. Yeah. Actually, it's a good question. Are people worried that maybe English degrees will become so not the thing to do

that they'll die out? It'd be terrible. Well, I think there's much more recognition, isn't there, in the publishing industry now that you shouldn't automatically head for the really beautifully delivered, quite clearly highly educated reader who's got a degree, actually. There's a much wider kind of push to hear other people's styles of writing

and thoughts about writing. So maybe that contributes to it too. But it's funny because if I could have had my time again, I would have done English. But I was put off. I didn't even do English at A level. So I was just put off by a teacher who I just didn't really get on with. And I would love to, if I had, you know,

if I had the chance to go back to university. Where are they now? I think they've passed away. Well, don't you think? Actually, you said that and it reminded me. I don't want to get you into trouble here, but it did remind me of, I've often mentioned my careers teacher who was really quite unenthusiastic about my prospects when I told her I wanted to be a journalist. And I've often referenced this woman, I don't think I've ever named her. And then she only died about two or

three months ago, because I saw it in the school email newsletter thing that I get. She was 101. So she may have spent 20 years being berated by Jane Garvey. She must have been seething, thinking, well, perhaps she didn't know. I mean, it's more than likely that she had no idea. But so many of us are told that because I had the same experience when I said I wanted to go into the media.

My careers advisor said it's too competitive. You'd do better to try teaching or nursing, both of which I just would have been hopeless at. I think you'd have been a good teacher. No display of that kind of patience in my earlier self, you'll be surprised to hear. But I think it came from a kind place of just not wanting somebody to be disappointed.

Yeah. A little bit, you know. Well, quite. It gave me a bit of a spur, actually. I thought, hmm, you. Yeah, sometimes it can be a spur, but other times... Right, OK. Great.

Yes, that's... Yes, I can see that it might work that way. I had to turn off the Olympics this morning when I thought that poor woman in the mixed triathlon was going to be overtaken did you see her on a bike? Beth Potter do you know what I watched so much sport on the weekend

yeah but it was a safe place because it was such a happy contrast to everything else but also I had proper proper Olympics indigestion by last night to the point at which we watched the 100 metres and I go oh well that wasn't that good well I didn't do you know what it's funny you say that because I didn't really enjoy it because I couldn't work out who'd won and then the person who was absolutely unbearable miles yeah I mean honestly

I was thrilled for the woman from um St Lucia yeah that was absolutely great but he was a pillock I'm afraid so I did he really was I mean you just did not want him to win. When he was gurning at the camera beforehand, I did think, yeah, I've had children like you round at children's parties, and you look at your watch and you go, oh, you'll be picked up by your parents at five to five, mate. Oh, God. But that's funny, because lots of people are saying

it was the best 100 metres final for 40 years, and I didn't get the tingles. No, there were no tingles. It was over very quickly, which is a stupid observation. No, but even all of the build-up and there was a bit of a delay. There was a weird delay. You know, they're just superb athletes. But there was something about it.

I think I was so disappointed that Louis, our Sheffield boy... Yeah, didn't quite get there, did he? Didn't get into the final. Because there's a lot to be learnt from him. His kind of nonchalance about his talent is so endearing. Really endearing. Well, we're speaking, was it Monday morning? So today is Keeley Hodgkinson Day

and I'm pretty sure she's going to win the 800 metres tonight. I hope I haven't stymied her chances. Don't kibosh it. No, but I mean, I really will make a point. And actually what is lovely about it is that it's becoming everybody gather around the television Olympics, which I'm loving because in so many households there's all this kind of fragmented viewing,

but we're all watching it together. So I think that is great. The big races people are engaging with. Yeah. I think it's lovely. And the cycling was very dramatic yesterday as well. And just watching that. So those road races races they're like

four hours worth of racing they're amazing it's a long time isn't it i don't know how they can stand up afterwards there was that incredible shot of the guy who won and just really forgive me for not being able to remember his name but he turned his bike to um you know in front of him when he got over the finishing line and it was just underneath the Eiffel Tower. So the cameraman panned back. So brilliant. The staging is fantastic. Incredible moments. Really incredible. I think we've got to hand it to Paris

because we didn't have many events in central London, did we, using Buckingham Palace and things like that? God, I mean, hardly any. So presumably some of the triathlon would have been on the open roads here. But you're right. We should have. Perhaps we just couldn't. I don't know what the reasoning was.

There was beach volleyball down at Horse Guards Parade, wasn't there? Oh, I suppose so, yeah. But no, nobody was diving into the Thames. Can we very briefly, and we've all heartily fell up to the back teeth with you, Edwards, but because we did talk about it last week, and one or two, well, actually we've had quite a few emails about him and then again about what we said about him in our other podcast at the BBC.

And I just want to address the issue of one emailer has just said where we got at and made to defend him after his peculiar demeanour in the original conversation with us. Now, I don't think we were, were we? No, no. So nobody from above came along and said, oh, you know, you've got to make sure that everything's all right. But there is a fantastic email from, let me just find it,

it's from Carla, who is a counsellor by profession, who writes this, I want to let you know your responses to the revelations about Hugh Edwards and your post-interview ick. It's some of what I hear from clients in my counselling room, people who've discovered that a known person or a celebrity they trusted is an abuser. The thing is that abusers are skilled manipulators

and it's part of their behaviour. They don't want to be found out they're skilled at reading people in, being quirky, being let off for being rude because they're a bit odd, appearing to be masters of their profession. When we find out that a person we thought we knew is an abuser, it's very difficult. It can lead to feelings of being fooled, feeling we should have known, which is never comfortable and it's not true. You didn't know, you couldn't have known, you did your best and that's good enough. Same goes for anyone with these feelings. It's so good you've been good enough. Same goes for anyone with these feelings. It's so good you've been able to talk,

that you're listening to people. It's helpful. Thank you. Keep going. Well, Carla, thank you, because I think you've really, really put your finger and your, you know, your counselling brain on what the huge problem is for so many people is that it leaves us feeling incredibly bad

that we didn't see what was then revealed to us but I love you for saying actually that's all part of what they do so it's not on us let's just because we have had a lot and I think we probably just feel that and we cannot emphasize often enough that the people we ought to be really thinking about and feeling deep sympathy for are the children involved here. But this is from Mariana who says, I found his manner deeply disturbing and it really got under my skin. After you talked about it recently,

it hit me what it reminds me of and why I feel this way. I think you said that you felt you had to play along with his persona and that you were manipulated. But this happens to me so often in my interactions with men. I think it could be as much as 50% of my interactions with them or even more. I'm trying to think of examples, but it is with most tradesmen and the majority of doctors. They take on this jokey, jovial condescension that requires a complicity from you

and I feel forced into positions I'm confused about and would never agree to be in if they were clear but their manner of joviality makes it confusing so you're on the back foot manipulated into laughing at yourself with them and sort of insinuate insinuating your own foolishness. I know what you mean, Marianne. I have to say, I think perhaps you're having some pretty dismal interactions with men if you think as many as 50% of them could be that grim. And I actually, I know what you mean.

Some doctors can be really condescending, but they can be female as well as male in my experience. Tradesmen, I've got to say that the people i regularly like my my regular handyman my lovely window cleaner they're really nice blokes so i don't i don't agree with that but that's mariana's experience so but i know the sort of kernel of what she's getting at if that makes any sense oh i know exactly what yeah exactly what you mean and and you you can feel it from the first moment of an interaction when somebody particularly a man is just viewing you in a way where you're not on a level playing field with him where he's just going into every conversation or selling you a car or whatever it is with him where he's just going into every conversation or selling you a car or whatever it

is with him being more in control than you and why why should that be you know if i'm buying the car mate you know if anyone's entitled to be a bit bullish i'm the customer with the dollar i think you're fine i'm just thinking i had a lovely interaction with a charming young man at the travel agents last week, you see and of course I ended up getting a holiday that was probably not the one I went in to get but he was so good at his job and not condescending

that it can work the other way Well keep us posted I will Now this is a brilliant one from Roz who says I agree wholeheartedly about teeth cleaning and talking on TV shows and films, but am I alone in being mystified by all of the crime shows

where no one in the UK closes curtains or blinds, which make it so easy for the bad guys. Close the curtains. You might live longer. I couldn't agree more. The number of dramas that happen to start with somebody asleep in a bedroom with their curtains wide open. No one does that.

Absolutely, absolutely daft. Crackers. And also, so I think we've talked about this before, haven't we, that our spin-off series, where you and I are the pedantic detectives in charge of the case, would be called Call for Backup. And we would simply called call for backup and we would simply always call for backup we would never go into a forest we would never open a squeaky garage door

at night we would never go down a dark lane on our own we would call for backup and we would wait yeah and that would be the tv show half an hour it It wouldn't be very long, would it? Sitting in the car, having something nice from our thermos flask. While we waited for backup. Waiting for the non-manipulative men to arrive. And while 10 billion quid was stolen from the bank right in front of us. We'd be safe. And we'd be enjoying our soup. Okay.

Rachel finds herself hiding upstairs with her knitting. She's safe in the knowledge that you won't start bickering or demanding snacks from me. Well, actually... Give us a chance. However, it's the school holidays with Rachel and she's, well, she's at her wits' end already, one week in, or is it two?

However, I wanted to pause to send some thoughts that have been building up. Number one, brownies. My elder daughter is a brownie. The leaders there are amazing. They put so much effort into giving the girls a fantastic time. They are the 32nd Sunderland St George unit. So congratulations and thanks to everybody involved with those brownies in Sunderland. Number two point, Weetabix. My mum used to buy Weetabix. None of us ate it. Then she'd be

exasperated when it went off and she had to replace it. One day she questioned my dad because there had definitely been a half-eaten Weetabix packet when she moved in. Why was he not eating what she bought? It turned out the other half-finished packet belonged to his ex-wife and that was awkward. So she moved out and left half-eaten packet of Weetabix. Wow. I'd have taken it with me.

I really would. Number three point, Kindles. I had the same feelings of abhorrence about Kindles, but like your correspondent, I bought one because of a long trip and now my Kindle and I are inseparable. However, one thing I note is because I can't see the cover,

I very rarely know the title or author of what I'm reading. And that's annoying if I want to casually make people aware of how literary I am. Rachel, thank you. Rachel, Rachel's kids, rather. She's in, she's upstairs. She's hiding from you.

Leave her alone. No, go up and bother her. No, leave her alone. I'm with you, Rachel. I like people to know how incredibly well informed I am. So I wouldn't be happy. I hadn't thought about that aspect of Kindle ownership. People can't appreciate your incredible erudition.

Tracy says, I feel I could drop you an email nearly every time I listen to the podcast, adding to a story or comment to whatever topic is ongoing. Well, feel free. A bit like a continuing chat I have with my bestie who lives in Scotland and she's in England. And very confusingly, her bestie is called Fee as well but we pass by on that right I wanted to send you the attached picture which I sent to Fee of when after my husband asked if he could help when we had

visitors coming to stay I replied please put the duvet cover on the duvet oh how we laughed and the photograph is of a chair which has got an unwrapped duvet on it, piled up. Just put it on the duvet. And it's got the duvet cover is just folded and placed on top. Well, it's there in the wrap. So, yep, so the duvet cover is on the duvet. But it's not on the duvet, is it? Well, it's on the duvet.

No, no, come on. It is funny. I laughed, Tracey, I laughed. And thank you for enjoying some of the recommendations of people who we have

on the podcast and I think you're new to John Ronson's The Psychopath Test which I would urge anybody to read because he wrote it

so long ago but God was that prescient about the type of people who have got to the top in this world and it's really

worth knowing yeah I was thinking did he write that pre-social media? Well, he did, didn't he? Because he wrote it before his book, So You've Been Publicly Shamed, which was about some of the first people who really lost their reputations overnight

by retweeting something or putting something up on the socials. And the psychopath test was before that, so I guess it must have been. Yeah, you're right. It was like he knew. Yeah, but his stuff is good. I sometimes think he's got his finger up to the wind. Shall we just move on to the first

of what hopefully will be many suggestions of the next Book Club book? Go on. This one comes in from Jenny, but it was also recommended by somebody else. And it is The Trouble with Goats and Sheep by Joanna Cannon. Have you read that? I haven't, but is that the email that includes the great first sentence?

Because it's such a good opening to the book. Yes. So the opening to the book, Mrs Creasy disappeared on a Monday. I know it was a Monday because it was the day the dustbin men came and the avenue was filled with the smell of scraped plates. That's brilliant. I've read it and it is mind-bogglingly good, actually. It would get a 10 out of 10 from me.

It's about two 10-year-olds, Grace and Tilly, who decide to look into the disappearance of Mrs Creasy. And it is beautiful on lots and lots of levels. So we'll pop that in the pile. That will start us off. You can recommend fact or fiction. We really don't mind. And male or female.

And you can also recommend somebody who has been translated. Has somebody recommended this book? That's funny. Yes, they have. This is from Sarah. I attached a phone, but just in case you can't see it, Audible has helpfully suggested, after listening to your book,

I should now listen to a book called Fat Cow, Fat Chance. Seems a bit rude and judgmental of them, I feel. But that's because it's by Jenny Murray. Yeah. And funny enough, I've got a copy of that book. So, yeah, we could do that. Yeah. Have you read it? I haven't actually read it

but I could read it for the book club Was it gifted to you? I think I took it from work Back in the old days Right, actually to be fair I don't want to be dismissive because that is actually quite a raw book about Jenny's battle with her relationship with her body yeah uh yeah and her mom and her boy yeah

not unconnected so um it might well be of interest so anyway i mean like he says you can suggest anything you like eve is indicating that she's heard quite enough and that we should get a so let's go to the guest john holmes is a funny man, radio presenter and radio maker, the man behind the crazy award-winning stuff like The Skewer. But life got very serious for John last year when he was diagnosed with prostate cancer. He decided to do what all good radio people do and make a programme about it,

and it's a series called John Holmes Says the C Word. He popped into Times Towers a few days ago and I started by asking him that loaded question when someone has been in the grip of something so serious. How are you? How deep are we going with this? Very deep. Excellent, that's what I like.

Do you know what though? I wasn't ill. That's the strange. So I was ill on the inside without knowing it, of course, until I had this test. But I had no symptoms. So I only went to the doctor in the first place for the gentleman's psa test so that's prostate specific antigen um because i'm over 50

i know i know you're thinking surely not john but no really i am i'll say it if it helps please surely not john that's right we'll just cut that together as though it was spontaneous um so i i and i'd seen uh social media, obviously knew how old I was because it kept throwing up images of going, are you a man? Are you this age? You need to go and get a finger up your bottom and a blood test then. And as a bloke, you sort of go, no, no, I'm not doing that. And I didn't have any symptoms whatsoever, but it kept appearing.

And then Stephen Fry's face appeared. And obviously I was aware that Stephen had had prostate cancer some years ago and i spoke very eloquently about it and he'd come out and done a video and then spoken about it and i and i was like maybe and i don't know to this i do not know what made me pick up the phone because i'm not a doctor person i don't call i don't do that and i and i just rang i said do i need to come in for a test and they said no there no, there's no screening programme for this. And I said, but there's an NHS branded advert in my Twitter feed. And they were like, oh, yeah, we've seen that. But have you got any symptoms?

I said, no. They said, well, let's run through the list. So we ran through the list. And it's getting up in the night several times to go to the loo, erectile dysfunction, all this kind of stuff. And I was like, no, I don't have any of these symptoms. And the GP said, well, that's that then, don't worry about it. Call back if you get one. And I said, oh, fine, don't worry about it. And then he said, oh, final question. Family history. Do you have family history of this? And I said, I don't know, I was adopted.

Family history. Do you have family history of this? And I said, I don't know. I was adopted. And he went, go on then, come in. And that got me through the door. And I had the test, thinking nothing of it. Back it came, oh, you've got prostate cancer. So if I hadn't been adopted, I wouldn't have been through that door and I would have it now and wouldn't know about it. So how do you now feel about that?

Because, and I know that you note in the podcast, your mum, adoptive mum, is religious and feels that maybe there was a bit of divine intervention pushing you that way. That was her take. You say it was the Stephen Fry effect because you'd heard his story. But it is an astonishing save isn't it it

just is yeah yeah it's very sliding doors it's very i something prompted me to to make that phone call and and i didn't think anything of it at all even though the test came back sort of elevated i think we're going to send you for an MRI scan. Still didn't think anything of it. Why? Of course not. Cancer happens to other people, right? We know that. And that came back inconclusive. And then you're on the fast track at that point

because if they suspect cancer, they're very quick. And, you know, you're on a two-week window. And then it was like, right, biopsy. And I was like, how does that work? Because the prostate's quite hard to... Oh, you do that, do you? Right, and that's the worst. That was the worst moment of the whole event. Um, cause a prostate biopsy, uh, is, uh, what they call a transperineal

biopsy. So a camera goes up your back passage. It's not a small camera. Uh, and then they, um, then they, they go in through the perineum and that's how they, you know, the bit between the anus and the ball sack, as it were. And to get to it, you can only go in. So you've got your legs in stirrups, naked from the waist down, three people in the room. One's the doctor doing the job. One's an assistant doing something computery.

And there was a nurse in there whose job was simply to hold my hand because they said, of all the biopsies, this is a bad one. So we're going to hold your hand and talk you through it as we go. Do you have a choice to be sedated, Gerard? Not in the NHS, you don't, because it's quite expensive to do that, isn't it? So I wasn't given that option. I know people since who've gone, why didn't you pay for...

I didn't know it was an option. I didn't know what was going on. I don't go to the doctor. I just sort of went along with what they told me to do. But now I know that you can be out for it. I think that would be my advice to anybody because it's not fun. So what's extraordinary in your podcast series is how many people you know who have had cancer.

And this is men, isn't it? It's a podcast made by a man and aimed at men but also how some of them had a really severe pain before they made it to uh doctors and we talk a lot don't we john about men being gp shy or you know leaving it too late to identify their own problems but but pain is your body's way of saying something is up. So what does change that? Is it simply information? Is it people like you talking about it?

I hope so. I mean, the reason I made this series in the first place was I, having got the diagnosis, I thought, oh, well, I don't really know what to expect. I know medically what to expect because they're telling me about that, and there are leaflets. But I don't know what to expect in terms of how I should be sort of approaching it,

and also the nitty-gritty of what goes on, what the side effects are, and how men feel about that. Because men get embarrassed about stuff, right? We don't talk about anything really down there, because we're just embarrassed about it, I think. And I thought, well, if I... The thing I wanted to listen to, about anything really down there because we're just embarrassed about it i think and i thought well if i that what the thing i wanted to listen to because obviously i thought well there's a million billion podcasts so there'll be one for this there'll be some men talking about that there

wasn't so i figured that well i'm in quite a privileged position that i work in this industry therefore i shall make i shall monetize my cancer cancer and try to help people along the way because men. And so all of the questions I think I would have had at the beginning, I had the answers by now because I've been through it and I knew other men who'd had cancer would have answers in their cancer field, as it were. So I thought, well, my brief to all the guests was just, let's just be honest about let's be brutally honest about.

And they are very happy to be very honest. So Stephen Fry, Mark Steele, Richard Herring, Matt Ford, Eric Idle, the musician Mike Peters, Nico and Jeremy Bowen, I mean, you know, these are people who we will recognise them. They are very happy to talk very honestly, which I think says something terrific, but also really sad, doesn't it? That the knowledge is out there, the honesty is out there, but nobody has been willing to put it kind of ahead of their current identity, if that makes sense.

Would you agree with that? People don't want to talk about their cancer before they talk about them. That's normal, isn't it? It is normal. And there's an episode in the series called Am I Now That Cancer Guy, right? And everybody had that feeling of going,

if I go public, because these are people in the public eye, and so everyone had that little feeling of, if I go public with this, do I become that? And that's it, I think. But then the message is too important, and everyone realised, everyone sort of instantly sort of went, oh, hang on a minute, no, if I that's it, I think. But then the message is too important and everyone realised, everyone sort of instantly sort of went, oh, hang on a minute,

now if I talk about it, it means people will go and get tested because my whole point of view was to demystify it and take the stigma away and if we can just talk honestly about it. So Colin McFarlane, who was in Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight Returns

and so on and so forth, he had second thoughts initially when someone said to him, you should talk openly about this. But someone said, yeah, but you're an actor and you work in America and the insurance people don't like cancer very much. And he sort of went, mm, but, mm, and just decided that whatever happened, he would roll with it.

And actually, he's been fine with it, of course, but it was a conscious decision that he made about it. And I think people do because I thought about it about it initially telling people is the hardest thing so telling people family friends and so forth was really really difficult because you don't know what to say and i did not want the tilty head feel sorry look that you get often when people and they who don't know what to how to respond you know sort of when i broke it the news to my closest friends you know we sort of went out for dinner and i'd sort of said i don't know when to respond. When I broke the news to my closest friends, we went out for dinner and I'd sort of said, I don't know when to do it.

Do I do it at the start? Do I do it when the drinks come? At the end, when? I'm thinking of having the salmon. I've got cancer. That's right, exactly. Yeah, I'll have the salmon cancer, please. And then it was a matter of tinging a glass

and just go, I've got something in the cellar. And obviously everyone thought, oh, what, have you got a new job or something? Yay, what's it going to be? And I sort of went, I've got cancer I need to tell you all. And obviously everyone thought, oh, what, we've got a new job or something? Yay, what's it going to be? And I sort of went, I've got cancer. And it's a mood changer. But it's difficult. And I think the more that we can, and again, humour, hugely important in this.

Because as I was going through it, every little thing that happened, the indignity of it all, I just, it was just funny. Stupid, stupid funny things happened all the time. And I was thinking, well, this is, I've got to do something with this. Something has got to come of this because I can't not tell anybody how funny that is. And then, of course, when I spoke to all the other men involved, and that was also the brief,

they got all of this stuff, you know, because it happens to all of us. I loved Mark Steele's anecdote about being offered an appointment to talk about his cancer, which was way off in October. And he'd phoned up, hadn't he, to say, could you bring it forward? And the woman offered him an appointment. They said, but they won't have your test results by then. He said, well, I don't want it.

Well, no, you can have the appointment. What's the point? There's a lot of admin. There's a lot of admin. What treatment did you have? The other weird thing about prostate cancer is you get a menu, you get a choice. So a lot of cancers, you do not.

It's like, we're doing this and this will cure it. That's what we're doing now. Mine was, well, prostate cancer, very slow growing. I'm quite young to have this. Well, all men kind of will get it at some point, but often way, way, way in the future, and then they won't do anything because something else will kill you first.

That's the theory, because it grows really, really slowly. And they caught mine and said, well, you're young enough in that we take away some options. You're too young for chemo in this instance. We wouldn't recommend it. We wouldn't recommend radiotherapy because you are young enough to make a full recovery from an operation. But there's that or an experimental, what they call HIFU,

which is high intensity frequency thing where they zap it. And again, the decision making, quite difficult because I want to be told what to do. I don't want to have to read brochures on it. And, of course, different specialists will tell you, well, I've saved the most lives with my technique. And then you're sort of going, oh, you've got a catalogue. Oh, OK.

I mean, they're just sort of, you know, sort of very much comparing each other's work. But in the end, I opted for the full op. And the reason for that was because I thought there are bad side effects to do with every bit of treatment, right? So you will be incontinent for a certain amount of time. The younger you are, the more is your chances of recovery. So you will be incontinent and you will lose erections.

That's just going to go because that's the prostate. Again, learning curve. What does it even do? What is it? And the answer is it's a walnut-shaped thing, sized thing, on average, and it produces the fluid that sperm travels in, right? So that's its job. And it's also the muscle that forces the sperm out during intercourse. That's its job. Take it away, and the nerves that operate the penis are fused to it, like a pith on an orange was the description.

So with the surgery, when they take it out, obviously those nerves are going to be damaged. Now these days with robots, because I had robotic surgery, which is incredible, the surgeon doesn't even touch you. It's nuts, to use an appropriate phrase. And they do nerve sparing. So eventually the nerves, the theory is the nerves will heal and you'll be fine.

But they give you lots of help and treatment and physio, weird, to help with all of that stuff. But the younger you are, the more chance you'll have of coming out the other side with all of this, you know. If you're in your 70s and 80s, it's more difficult. What are the statistics of being successfully treated for prostate cancer catch it early high very high i mean it's it's one of the most treatable uh but you have to get it early as i was going through it part of the reason i made the decision to have the full op was a very very close friend of mine uh his dad was dying of it and he they just hadn't he hadn't taken any

notice of the symptoms hadn't ever gone and got tested, and by the time he had the symptoms, it had spread to his bones. And he was in hospital with it almost when I was diagnosed. Not that I spoke to him, but my friend did. And his dad basically sent me a message just before he died,

and he just said, tell John. Because I was going, I don't know, it's a full option. And he went, tell him to get the bastard out. And I sort of listened to him at that point. So that statistic that one in two of us will get cancer is so terrifying. And you make note of it right at the beginning of the podcast series. But I wonder what you think about whether or not we need to modify that sharp statistic

by saying how many people survive if they do catch it early yeah because everything about your story is about being vigilant about your own health and living to tell the tale and there's something in us isn't there that goes sometimes humans like to ignore things yes the one in two of us will get cancer. There are many people who think, well, I'll always be the one that doesn't. That's what I thought. Yeah. That's what we all think,

because that's how our brains go, isn't it? But if we followed that up with, but you will survive, you know, this number of people survive if they do something about it. That's what changes everything. It is. Eric Idle, now he had pancreatic cancer. That's the very, very bad cancer. That's what changes everything, isn't it? It is. Eric Idle, now he had pancreatic cancer.

That's the very, very bad cancer. That's game over in 90% of cases or more. And if you are diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, because the symptoms are there, but they often get misdiagnosed. And by the time it shows up as that, you've got months properly. Now, he was caught early in a routine check

of just general men's health. He lives in LA, so it was possibly Ponce. And they do everything, you know, and they checked everything, and they just went, hmm. And again, he hadn't got any symptoms at the time, but they caught it early. And so he had the op and he's fine.

And that's, I thought that's a lesson because that's the one that you are likely to die from. And the message has to be, if you have routine checks, if you're over 50, it's a bit of a prostate, or over 45 if you you have routine checks if you're over 50 it's for specific prostate or over 45 if you're a black man right go and get a psa test uh you might have to sort of as they don't do it routinely just say i keep going to the toilet in the night just and they'll get you through the door and have the test because the prostate's very clever because it gives signal if it's not doing

well it sends out these very specific antigens and tells the the gp that something is up now it doesn't mean cancer it could just be enlarged or infected or whatever but they'll need to look at it and that's that's a very clever little organ to be able to do that it struck me listening to the podcast uh that all of the people you talked to all of the men that you talked to, they were very fluent about their cancer. They were very honest about their stories. They were very willing to talk. They had just been waiting for somebody to ask them to make it public.

And that's extraordinary, isn't it? That there wasn't something before now until you've made this series that specifically allows men to do it i mean there are magnificent charities like movember doing extraordinary work but that reluctance has to change doesn't it i think so that's why i wanted to be as my mum would put it because she has listened must you overshare so much and you've've heard it, and there are very brutal, raw, honest descriptions of what's happening to our downstairs bits,

other bits, everything, and hospital stays and indignity. Because indignity is what it is. And it's the fear, it's the not knowing, I think. I was sort of frightened of having a... You have to have a catheter when you come out. And to me, I was like, sorry, you're putting what where? You know, and then all I was thinking about for the 10 days while I had a catheter when you come out. And I was like, sorry, you're putting what where? You know, and then all I was thinking about

for the 10 days while I had this catheter was, they've got to take this out. Now that is going to be unpleasant. Do you know what? It was fine. Because, but no one had told me that it was going to be, doctors sort of go, it'll be all right. But you go, will it?

But what I wanted was other men who've had them to tell me what it was like and the actual facts. And again, it was a ridiculously funny situation because it's done by two student nurses and you go this is odd uh but they you know they do that they pull and it's out and it didn't hurt and i thought for 10 days it was going to be agony but it's good to say do you know what not not so much do you think having had cancer has changed your character changed the way that you look at the world is it always uh does it have to be a life-changing thing you make your mark in comedy you make your living in comedy does it change that no i don't think so because i i my you you have a slight perspective shift when you well well, I did anyway, and I can't speak for everyone, of course, but certainly on diagnosis, I remember it was over a Zoom call.

I was in a hotel because I was working away and they'd sort of set this appointment and the oncologist sort of said, we've got your results back. And I do, I'm afraid I'll have to tell you it is cancer. And I did not hear the rest of what he said, which is, I think, common, because your mind just goes, what, I've got cancer? And I just kept repeating, I've got cancer. And even when the Zoom call had finished, I was looking in the mirror in the hotel bathroom, just going, I've got cancer.

And that's weird. That felt very strange, walking around. You know, half an hour ago, as far as I knew, I didn't have cancer or didn't know. And now I'm a statistic with it. And that flips you from being the one person who hasn't to the one that has. That was quite odd. And I, not life-changing, but perspective-changing.

And you feel very mortal all of a sudden. Even though I knew, they were like, don't worry, it's really early, you will be fine. But you're going to have to go through some pretty horrible stuff to get there, but you are going to live. And when I told my kids, you know, we sort of made the decision that that would be a thing, because they've known people throughout life, you know, that cancer's around,

and they know people that have died of it and stuff. And so I wanted to make sure they knew that I wasn't going to. So, yeah, my youngest was obviously at the time um 10 maybe 11 uh and i sort of sat down and i said i said right you know i've got this i will be going to hospital for a bit for various things um and i've got cancer but i'm gonna be fine she just sort of went so you're not gonna die i went no she went great can i have an apple and that was it that was all she was interested in uh and i yes keep the doctor away i wanted to um she was and that. And I, yes, keep the doctor away. I want to die. She was, and that was interesting because I thought they just took it in their stride.

And I thought, well, that's sort of what you have to do. Every time you get to the next bit that you think is going to be unpleasant in it, go over that hurdle, get on to the next one, and eventually, you know, you'll be out the other side if you're lucky. But perspective change, yeah, life change, no. I was just finding funny in it because so many

ridiculous as i said things happened all the time like there was one bit where um i was in the i was in the hospital all tubed up post-op and there had been a leak in like a sink in the corner and i told i thought when we got i was a leak under that that I said I don't mind I'm just telling you that it's there and so I was sort of coming around and next to the bed because of the incontinence thing

you know you've got these incontinence bed pads that they put under you and stuff in case your catheter leaks and this guy came in

who's sort of hospital maintenance and he said alright so you know he does this every day doesn't matter about the tubed up guy in the bed with all the pipes and the noises uh coming off machines and

he just went all right where's the leak then and i sort of gestured over towards this thing he went all right he sort of wondered if he looked at it and he looked around he was like and he hadn't got a tool bag with him or anything so he just picked up a pile of my incontinence pads and mopped it all up i'm going hang on a minute is that is that what it's come to but you know i thought well whatever well it's exactly that kind of wasteful activity that we're streeting is going to be overseeing change i'm going to write to him personally yeah i'm going to write a letter but on an incontinence pad john holmes and uh if you've got a man in your life who you think is a little bit reluctant to go and get checked then boy that is the podcast for you and if you've got a man in your life who's

been diagnosed it is also the podcast for you so good on John for doing that actually because you know he's a man known for being funny and obviously at times he's very serious in the podcast, as he would need to be because it's cancer, but it also, he carries you along with all of the kind of the comedic turns and whatever. And as he says, he got it right at the beginning and so he stands such a good chance of always being fine. Well, I didn't do the interview, but I did speak to him before he talked to you,

and he did make the point of saying that he hadn't really been ill ill. No, and that appears to be true. Yeah, so he says in the interview that it was so soon that he was diagnosed that, no, he didn't feel that he had cancer. And he looks well, doesn't he looks well yeah totally totally and because he didn't go to the doctor because something you know really different was happening to his body um so it is a lesson to everybody but yes that comes with a very hard recommend yeah but so many of us are reluctant to go when it's something you know just a little bit and what it embarrassing let's just be honest

sometimes it is embarrassing to go to the doctor with some bodily oddity that you are very aware of but can't quite face face up to but honestly it is always better to go isn't it definitely do it definitely and you know i um you if you've got a feeling, just a really weird feeling, and it's not necessarily accompanied by massive symptoms, and, you know, of course the National Health Service would rather see you in the very early stages, particularly of cancer, than meet you much further down the line when in so many cases it can't help you.

So just go. Just go. You know, it's a 10-minute appointment with your GP. I know it's difficult sometimes to get into your GP, but there are so many tests available now that can pick up things right in the early stages so i think um you know as john said you just go with a kind of i'm gonna pursue this and lo and behold you're saving everybody and all of your loved ones and yourself uh so much and uh you know if anybody else has more thoughts that they would like to send our way about that, it's janeandfie at times.radio. Book club suggestions, keep them coming in.

Yeah, absolutely. It's times, if she does know, I'm not going to do it anymore because you've done the address. That's fine. Well, Eve needs to very much get on with her life, so we'll leave it there. She'll be leaving us soon. Bye.

Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fi. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off-Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.