Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Happy but private times (with Mark Cavendish)

Episode Date: July 24, 2024

The days of stroking legs are gone... do with that what you will. Jane is thinking about the dog equivalent of a litter tray, meanwhile, Fi is losing her patience with jigglers. Fi also spoke to cyclist superstar Mark Cavendish about his family, his friendship with Bradley Wiggins and his feelings on lycra. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'Missing, Presumed' is by Susie Steiner. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail]. Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant producer: Hannah Quinn Podcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

God forbid you might have a stray hair on your own nipple. Death will come to you. God, that reminds me, I must do something about that. You do sometimes get slightly persistent hairs. I don't understand it. What is that? Why? I saw one of my very, very, very best friends at the weekend, Jane,

who lives abroad, so we don't have a chance to catch up very often. So we did a fantastic kind of four-hour chat, as you do. And one of the previous times I've seen her, because she lives abroad, was at my 50th, which is now nearly six years ago. And she said... Hard to believe. Thank you. She said, you've got to keep you've got to keep doing that because actually when you get to our age it is fantastic when

somebody gives you an excuse to take off somewhere leave the real world behind uh join up with people you don't see very often or you know possibly people you don't know very well and she said you've just got to keep doing it so i quite like that because then you don't see very often or, you know, possibly people you don't know very well. And she said, you've just got to keep doing it. So I quite like that because then you don't have to think I'm overindulging myself by organising a birthday celebration. You can genuinely think there are other people who quite like to do it. Because I bet the people you went to use the toilets in Gallery Lafayette with, I bet they would love to go and do that again. Well, they keep saying they would love to do it.

Well, see, there you go. But I think they could just drink more than me. I can't stand it. I'm still not over the fact that some of them went to... They went to get more on the way back. Well, we are in the company of, I would say, 80% of the workforce today is 90% proof because it was young Matt Chorley's leaving due last night.

I'm not going to make a cheap gag and say I had no idea he was leaving. He has gone on about it. No, he's much celebrated. Yes. He's going to be much missed. But I left at really, really early because I had to get back. 30 o'clock. Nancy would have needed a wee.

In fact, she didn't need a wee by the time I got back because she had a wee. Why isn't there a dog equivalent of the litter tray? There is. Oh, is there? Yeah, you can get these patches of turf that you can lay down somewhere kind of near an exit. Does it have a really hilarious trade name?

Oh, probably. I think I saw it on Dragon's Den. Right. But usually I'm home in time for Nancy's. I don't really need that. But I tell you what, I was going up the stairs, spiral staircase at the pub, and there was just this, it was like a fire alarm had been sounded somewhere. There were people just running, running to get into the pub, to get down the stairs, to get to the leaving do.

Because were some of the drinks free? There was a buffet on its way. Buffet? There was a buffet, yep. A finger buffet. But also I think Matt's very popular and lots of people, I mean either that or people can't stand him and they just really wanted to make sure he got out the door. Or, and I'm not suggesting this because I know he's much liked and extremely

talented, maybe it was a Tuesday night and it's summer and people just thought I'll have a bevy and a bit of a finger buffet for free. Yeah, probably. It feels like the week before everyone's going on holiday even though for a lot of people it's about four weeks away, but let's just pretend. Now we've got another holiday coming up.

Yes, oh yes, we have. We don't want to alarm people. It's only a week, isn't it? Yeah, it's in August. Nobody will notice. All those days fade into one. I wonder whether Lee will. Lee's just emailed to say, I'm so late.

Even as a devotee of your former podcast, I failed to keep up with the news and I'm now starting from the first episode at The Times, the 10th of October, 2022. I'll catch up in a few weeks, hopefully, says Lee. Lee, don't bother. Just join in now. This is putting yourself through cruel and unnatural punishment.

Nobody deserves that. You're very welcome. Glad you finally found out where we are. But dig in from today, because I just think that's too far. I think also some of the stuff that we reference really feels like a different era, century. We're now living in a one-party socialist state. I know. We weren't. Did we start back in the days

of BJ? Liz Truss. Oh, no. Oh, no, no. Oh, I think you might be right. No, I think it was Liz Truss. I think we arrived just before the Truss explosion, didn't we? Oh, I can't remember. No, OK.

Sorry. We've been here so long now, Lee. We've gone through about six prime ministers. So, as I say, glad to have you on board. Took you a while, but don't apologise. And just to reassure people, you must be losing sleep over whether or not Fee has brought in those sturdy bin bags for me.

She has. 80 litre ones. Can't wait to start filling them. Thank you so much. Pleasure. Now, Debbie is really annoyed, and Debbie has written in a couple of times listening to another episode of your great pod...

You would have thought that was one word I'd be able to mask. Great podcast. I know. You've got it wrong again. The rule is simple. Take out the other person and see if it makes sense. Would you say her and I or she and I uh please read this as i do love your program but the grammatical errors which have come from the bbc with you just spoil my dog walk so this is this is when i say

uh her well you see that happened yesterday didn't it because you said this is off air with me Jane Garvey and her should that be she and she her and I she and I doesn't feel or sound right

no and I'm really sorry that annoys you Debbie because I just couldn't give a what's it about things like that. So that's why I don't correct myself and I can't remember what rule I'm meant to be using. But in fairness to our correspondent, there are so many things in life that I get so exercised by just in my head that I know don't matter. And but that doesn't stop me getting irritated. Oh, God, I'm with you on that. So we'll take more of those, by the way.

If there's just something really quite minor that just grinds your gears, not necessarily involving either of us, just something from your daily life, let us know. Because sometimes you do get these head spins, don't you, that would mean nothing to anybody else, but just really, really irritate you. Yeah, I can't stand people jiggling their legs.

No, you know when you're on a tube and the person next to you is jiggling and it takes all... I'm doing it now. Are they just nervous travellers? Well, it just takes every single sinew in my body not to just gently lean over, just put my hand on their knee. Just go, don't jiggle. Don't jiggle. There's no need for that.

Hashtag no jiggling. No jiggling. No jiggling until Dawson. You can jiggle till the end of the line, as far as I'm concerned. We're still getting a lot of emails from people who are very angry for a string of no doubt very good reasons about hillbilly elegy. Now, I read more of it last night.

You were right, it's very readable. I got onto a bit last night where he does, references his grandparents' gun ownership and the fact that they had incredibly short fuses, didn't they, as a family? I think we can say that. Mammal and Pupple, as he called them. That's right. And if a member of the family had been slighted in any way,

then they would reach for their weaponry. You have to be growing up anywhere other than some parts of the United States just to find that's so ridiculous. Imagine the streets of Britain. I don't know, we look, we have crime. Some hideous things go on in Britain. I'm not pretending otherwise, but you'd have to be a real...

Well, we just don't have that, do we? We do not have that. things go on in Britain I'm not pretending otherwise but you'd have to be a real well we just don't have that do we we do not have that and it would make jiggling for some people a fatal yeah I mean mistake so thank god for that do you know what I found uh interesting and then you absolutely must read this email because I also have something to say about Jodie Vance now um but I thought one of the most telling passages that I'd got to was when he was talking about how his family, his immediate family, just couldn't ever let anybody outside the family know what was happening inside the family,

to the extent that when one of his close relatives had done something wrong, they had to go and hide in the cellar when other close relatives came round because they didn't even want those relatives to know that something had gone bad in the house so that feeling of it's my business it's my territory it's my family the rest of the world can f off and it can't judge us that lies at the heart of some of the really i think horrible right-wing attitudes within the Republican Party. But to an extent, doesn't every household, every family,

have a sort of version of that rule? They have a sort of version of that rule, but not to... I mean, it's dangerous, isn't it? Oh, it's horrific. When you're effectively only hitting somebody where the bruises don't show. And that's what happened eventually in his family. But these are important emails that we're getting on this subject,

which are educating us. I was going to say, we are being properly schooled here and we're grateful. But, you know, I hope people who listen understand this. We're not just looking for people to write in and say, we really enjoy your podcast. We actually love being told things we don't know and being put right.

So this is from a listener who says, i've never written to a podcast before but the discussion of hillbilly elegy for two consecutive days tip the scales as a native of the appalachian mountains i'd like to offer a different perspective you're correct to note that the book was widely lauded by many liberal publications at the time of its issue. That, however, doesn't make it accurate. From the beginning, regional publications rejected this book. Vance's thesis that poverty is a result of poor choices amongst Appalachians has little to support it. As you read Hillbilly Elegy, I'd ask you to consider the poorest citizens in your own country. Are they lazy? Is it their culture? Or is poverty a deeply complex issue

often rooted in a country's history, prejudices, geography and societal structures? I also question if anyone associated with Donald Trump can be depended upon for a modicum of truthful analysis. Yeah. I mean, that is... Yeah, I mean, I suppose I happen to be from a part of England, Liverpool, there is much written about, much discussed, often appears in the media. And I always think, oh, but there's another side to that, because that's a part of the world I do

know. And, you know, it's the same for your part of Hampshire, isn't it? You might read something about Winchester, you just think, well that's shit maybe not Well no, but everybody just assumes that it's Jane Austen bonnets Exactly, and there's more to it. And everything's fine Yeah, it's all bonnets and crinolines and it's not true So thank you for all of that

and actually just to echo this, this comes in from Julie who says, I appreciate that you're reading Vance's book to better understand him. He's evolved since he wrote it. And at 39, who knows where he'll evolve to still. I was also travelling through West Virginia with a friend from New Zealand. And whilst bookshop browsing, we found a scathing critique of his book from an appellation point of view. And the bookseller gave us an earful.

And Julie ends her email by saying, P.S. I just ordered Kamala Harris's book, The Truths We Hold, in brackets, 2019. And, you know, of course, we should read all around the contenders. Have you ever flicked through The Art of the Deal? No. Donald Trump's contributions to literature. Have you read it? What a load of absolute...

It's not bullshit, is it, Fi? Complete and utter... We don't quite understand the notion of the for-profit scam colleges, but I would say that that's a for-profit scam book. Is that like Trump University? Yes. Right, OK. I mean, the art of the deal, if you're doing deals like that.

And the email I referenced, sorry, about Hillbilly Elegy being dreadful, she also goes on to say that Vance has, of course, recently, I think it was a couple of years ago, referred to Kamala Harris as a childless cat lady without a direct stake in her country, questioning whether a woman who doesn't have children can ever be truly invested in the American story. I mean, that...

Yeah, I'm just... Bugger off. So that quote has been doing the rounds a lot today, actually. It's almost being played on a loop. And we are here to say that having cats makes you a good person and having kids doesn't necessarily make you a good person. So we are with Kamala. We call her a cat woman and we mean good things by that.

But you know exactly what he meant. They're dredging some stuff up there, aren't they? I mean, I'm already reading and I must say I've read it. You know, unsuitable lovers in the past. I mean, who amongst us could say, no, I'm a virgin and proud of it. And imagine if she was, by the way, and she said that. God, can you imagine what grief she'd get then?

It's just extraordinary. I mean, women cannot win. And we can't keep harping on about this, but remember who she's up against, please. Whenever you find yourself judging her, just think about what the opposition is yep are you going to finish hillbilly elegy oh yeah because it's readable and i more or less finish every book that's readable so yeah i'll because i need to know why it's been successful and unless

you've read it i'm not sure you can really offer an opinion can you so we were looking up over the weekend uh whether or not Keir Starmer had written his memoir because actually a lot of politicians are advised to write their memoirs quite early on in their careers in order to get their story out in their own words before anyone else before anybody else does and there's a very good biography of Keir Starmer out at the moment by Tom Baldwin isn't there but I don't think Keir Starmer has written his memoir, but he has written the compendium of human rights as well, which I think is from 2019. It's enormous. It's a great big kind of black and red, almost leather bound book. And I'm going to put that on my Christmas list. This one comes in from Annette who says, why is it that almost every

film or TV programme I watch ends with someone cleaning their teeth and talking at the same time it's infuriating it's true it's so true and the idea that you have these really important conversations with your loved one whilst both looking at the mirror yeah and scrubbing your teeth and people are scrubbing their, I mean they're damaging their gums, they're always just going at it it's just and you just think that's not good but also, it's a gentle brush and a floss can I say they always have immaculate

sinks, they do, and we all know that in real life, sinks are often the very first place to they've got that bit of ingrained toothpaste swill from the day before, Yeah, they're difficult. And the mirror's always got splat on it. Oh, my God.

The mirror's always disgusting. Yeah, I mean, they're horrible places and you probably wouldn't let the outside world see your facilities. Sometimes I think, oh, no, you know when somebody pops in and needs to use the loo, I think, oh, God, what state is the lavatorial facility in? Yeah, and once your children are above a certain age, you can't even say, sorry, kids used it.

Yeah, because when your kids are in their late 40s, there's absolutely no getting out of it. But also I'd be interested to hear from couples. How many times do you have a chat with your loved one in the bathroom at toothbrushing time? So I let my latent life... Does he see you brushing your teeth? I always just let him brush his teeth on his own.

I think it's private time. It's a happy time. A happy but private time. Yeah, I don't need to have a chat with him then. I mean, I've always believed that separate bathrooms, if possible... Oh, I'm with you. Maybe a solution, maybe stretching it too far, but an aid.

Oh, I think they are a lovely luxury. Yeah. We should say we've got a great big guest. Great big guest. He's not big, particularly. He's tiny. Well, let's hear about his dimensions. I'm talking about the cyclist Mark Cavendish.

Height? Well, I would say probably 5'7". Oh, so, right. Small. well i would say probably five seven oh so right small but i guess cyclists aren't huge well they're not no tall are they well i think they can be tall but they're incredibly slender aren't they i mean bradley wiggins has two twiglets yeah and you know a malteser helmet on top basically um so mark cavendish has only just come off the Tour de France where he's made history. He has won the most stages ever,

beating a record set by Eddie Merckx, which was held for years and years and years. He's really amazing, Jane. I don't really follow cycling, but because I'm a middle-aged woman, I know lots of men to whom Mark Cavendish is catnip. I mean, just catnip. They just really, really worship him because he has properly, properly lived that life of sportsman

where you get knocked down and you get back up again. And he's done it several times and he's now 39. And he won a stage. Yes. So the stage that he won in the Tour de France takes him to the greatest ever. A goat. Yes, thank you very much indeed.

A mountain goat. A mountain goat indeed. But he's a sprinter. Yes, he is a sprinter. He doesn't like the hills. Right. But we should just say that all of the other interviews, because he was doing quite a few,

he was doing the rounds of interviews, were very much about all of the sporting intricacies of cycling. And his story is just intriguing. So you could definitely talk to him for, you know, four and a half hours about that. But we had actually agreed to do a slightly different interview that was very much about him. So I can point you in the direction of the archive of Talk Sport

if you want to really hear stuff about the season of 2018 and the crash of 2017 and all of that type of stuff. What Mark and I talked about was cycling and being Mark Cavendish. Yeah. And his legs. and his legs and his legs yeah because he i mean i'm going to make a semi-serious point here about he shaves his entire body or just his legs just his legs so on the london underground and i'm sure elsewhere across the country at the moment you cannot shift for tom daly plugging uh shaving a shaving product and i think it might be the first time because the advert just says it's right for up here

and he's got a completely bare chest and it's right for down there. And so manscaping on the... It is huge, isn't it? And that is definitely... It is relatively recent, isn't it? It is. Yeah.

Do you have thoughts about it? Do you find a shaved man appealing? I mean I must I've never really been in a thing that bothers me but I'm not a particularly hairy individual but if you have for example a very hairy back as a man

Are you looking at me? No I'm not, you don't have a hairy back but do men dislike that about themselves is what I'm asking. Oh, I'm sure they do. But why would they? And I don't know. And is it necessary now for men

to shave everything in the way that lately it's been thought of as completely normal for women to do? Yes, it is. Is it? Yeah, it's the back sack and crack. Yeah, so that's a world away from Mark Cavendish, who's doing it for aerodynamic reasons?

Yes. Seriously? Yes, he is. But I'm not going to spoil the interview because his shaving regime is quite funny. Actually, it's quite funny. But the men wanting to be smooth all over thing, I mean, if you watch Love Island, the men...

I have. Yes, exactly. but then i always think of them as fairly human and i don't mean that in a particularly derogatory way they're just superhuman yeah but the signal that they're sending out and obviously they're reflecting modern times aren't they so they're the men are completely hairless on their chests and then you know they'll you know put their hands up in applause or whatever it is, and, you know, they're still allowed to have really bushy underarm hair. Oh, they can have tofts.

Yep, but then they have to have a very kind of manicured beard, don't they? And they've still got to have the eyebrows. And, I mean, that's the irony for men, isn't it? That now their bodies, parts of their bodies are hairless, but, my God, you've still got to have hair on your head. So that's the same pressure that we have. Tough call. You know, we should look like a Barbie doll,

have this lovely ringletting hair, but, you know, God forbid, you might have a stray hair on your own nipple. Death will come to you. That reminds me, I must do something about that. You do sometimes get slightly persistent hairs. I don't understand it. What is that? Why?

I think that, I'm going to say, I think that might be the female equivalent of the funny hair that men get in their ears. But we are here to say... Yeah, are we? We are. That blokes, just please don't worry about that. You've got more things to worry about in your world just. You've got more things to worry about in your world

just as we've got more things to worry about in ours. And really, you know, don't shave yourself all over. It's just terrible. And also, it really, really clogs the drains. Please don't clog the drains. The drains of London, it used to be fatbergs. Honestly, I think it's body hair now. You've probably... That is

an under-discussed area. I'm serious. Could it be the amount of hair removal is adding to the Fatberg problem? Well, I think it's all kinds of things, isn't it? It's all kinds of things. And actually, I did notice, because sometimes I buy those wax strips, because I'm doing the waxing, kids. I'm doing, you know,

look, beautifully smooth legs there. Wonderful. But I did notice on the box of waxing strips, it started to say, don't flush these down the toilet. They're full of plastic. Oh, for God's sake, people weren't... And you just think... Were they flushing them? Yeah.

I mean, I wouldn't, but presumably lots of people are. And imagine how much wax is going down sinks these days. I think that's why the bees are in decline. I don't think they want to participate. Well, what with that and scented candles. It does make you wonder. Anonymous says, I was listening to your podcast from Monday

where you mentioned about Baroness Hallett and the COVID report, and it dawned on me that I've been listening to you both now for over four years. I was part of the COVID generation who missed out on doing their GCSEs and AS levels and were then

thrown into sitting A levels despite never having sat an official exam before. I really feel for you there, the pressure there and the tension must have been off the scale. Anyway, it's ended happily for this correspondent who says, I'm now at the end of my second year in uni studying for an operating department healthcare degree in what often feels like a rather broken healthcare system actually very broken is what they say I've had conversations with staff members who are still burnt out and have just had to do a put a put a lot of what happened during Covid to one side and just get on with it I talked to one practitioner who disliked the term heroes used often for healthcare professionals throughout COVID.

As to her, it made it seem like somehow they were no longer people and that the deaths each healthcare practitioner witnessed firsthand didn't really affect them. And because they were, quote, heroes, they could just handle it. I've never considered this before, but it does make sense. I've never considered this before, but it does make sense. Well, that's an interesting insight, isn't it? And I wonder how many other professionals in the NHS feel that way too, that because they were thought of as heroic, their suffering somehow didn't quite touch the sides. But I bet it did.

Yeah. And continues to. Yes, and also isn't it exactly stuff like that, because the human mind is so self-protecting, you push that kind of stuff down for quite a long time and it might not be until you're way further into your career or you retire or, you know, your head changes, that all of those memories really start to bubble up again.

Yes, I think there'll be people in their 80s and 90s reliving those days of 2020 and 2021. And I hope there's someone around to listen. Maybe we should all listen, actually. But thank you for that anonymous email. And I'm glad that we've kept you company and that things have worked out for you professionally because that sounds like an interesting degree.

And I'm going to bring in Mark, but first of all, describe your first bike. Can you remember it? Oh, my goodness. I do remember my first bike. Do you have stabilisers? Yes, of course. Did you go straight on to two wheels?

No, I was on stabilisers up until about six months ago. Do you know what I mean? I remember the day the stabilisers came off. Okay. But, wow, it was an effort. Do you remember a day because you ended up in A&E? No, but I do remember the sense of total triumph. It's hard, isn't it?

It's very hard. It's a weird thing. Did you learn on a slope? Because that was our key to success. No, I grew up in a suburb called Waterloo. That was where I lived for my first 11 years of my life, 10 years of my life. And it was a street full of characters.

I still remember lots of names. But it was completely flat, so you could just go. It was a very safe place to learn to ride a bike. And to be fair to my dad, he was pretty patient, actually, because I wasn't. I wasn't a natural. Gosh, I think teaching your kids to learn to ride a bike is so back-breaking.

Yes, because you're crouching. In our parenting experience, they had those little um you know the bobby scooters well there's the the bikes without the pedals you know so they can push with their starters yes which which i think were brilliant and my kids really really loved them but it did give them a false sense of their own capability when they first sat on a bike because they were both like yeah we've been doing this for years no sweat no you haven't so here we go uh my first bike was blue it definitely had some yellow kind of affectations on it i think the thing that we would notice now is we would have learned to ride

on bikes that were so heavy yeah do you remember if a bike fell on top of you well you knew about it didn't you whereas now particularly if you are of our dimension yeah now some athletes you admire some you cheer for and some you love and mark cavendish really is loved the man they call the manx missile has won a record 35 stages in the tour de france more than any other rider he's come through serious illness depression and crashes. One notorious one in 2017 where he appeared to be elbowed by another rider. But the highs have been very high. He's come back all the way to the top of the podium across 16 years and multiple teams. And he's 39 and he has said that this is his last Tour de France.

He popped into Times Towers yesterday evening and we started by chatting about whether he feels the amount of love that people have for him well thank you for saying the pleasure um i round a bike race i do out of a bike race i don't i don't i don't know we don't really think about it do you know what i mean like round cycling of course as well as being my job i i that people live it's only in the last few years actually I learned that you know sport fans live your journey with with you they're not watching you live your journey they're living it with you and that's from being a sports for myself but my kids as well and

seeing what you know they're they're heroes and people they watch do um so you feel that and it changes your perspective of it but yeah like when i'm not around cycling i don't know i'm just really with my those people closest to me my wife and kids well i mean that's so healthy and that is the way it should be but you do something uh particularly to middleaged men that I've never seen before. And I don't know whether, I suppose you might be the least likely person on the planet to be able to answer questions about it, actually. But people do.

They want to either be near you, say something to you, say thank you to you. You know, that connection is incredible, actually. Do you have that to any other sportsmen? I think, yeah, not just sports people, but people that, anyone that's inspired me, you know, I have a lot to thank them for. I think that's the beauty of predominantly sport,

but anything kind of in life, anything that, if there's people that, not just young people are inspired to be like, but anybody in the world, if you can go, oh, you know, they've done that, that makes me want to do it. It doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, what you do. You can jump on this cycle of being inspired by someone while also doing something that others will be inspired by I guess you know and uh like I'm very fortunate to have been part of like this growth of cycling in the UK over the last 15 years um

when I started it was a very niche sport but a lot of people did it but it's still quite underground like niche and the success we had at the Olympic Games over many Olympic Games the success then we had on the road with Bradley winning the tour Chris winning the tour Geraint Thomas winning the tour

and people inspired to get on bikes we had the infrastructure put in for people to commute into London and all around the country, you know. So people riding bicycles has just exploded over the last... I've been witness to that and to think that maybe you had a small part to play in it, it does fill you with a sense of pride, that's true. Yeah, I think a big part to play in it, it does fill you with a sense of pride. Yeah, I think a big part to play in it, actually.

What is it about cycling that seems to become so addictive for you? That's a really good question, you know. I think it's different for me as a professional. It's my job, you know. I still say I love riding my bike. I love it. Always loved it. Always will love it. I'm very fortunate to do what I love most in the world. I love it. Always loved it. Always will love it.

I'm very fortunate to do what I love most in the world. But what do you love about it? Can you put it into words? Is it the speed? It's the freedom. I think the freedom is what appealed to me, first of all. Like, you don't have to go somewhere to do it. You can leave your front door.

You don't need the best bike in the world you you need fundamentally a frame with two wheels and pedals and you can go where you want when you want for how long you want as fast as you want with who you want there's just so many it's just freedom and i still feel like okay I'm constrained to a training program whatever but the days I can just go out and ride my bike I still got that sense of freedom that I got when I was 10 years old you know and I think that's quite appealing to to many many people your cycling though has uh cost you quite a lot physically over the years hasn't it so you've had some bad crashes but also you had Epstein-Barr which is a really really debilitating illness to have so I wonder

whether you can tell us how you felt when you couldn't cycle and presumably when you really thought maybe I'm never going to cycle again that was hard because it was all I knew you know um I think as many endurance athletes get Epstein-Barr it's almost like you get it when you're young and it stays dormant in the body and then when you're at your physical limit it comes back you know um but if it's managed right you'll be back to normal in in a couple of months you know it's just when it's not managed right that's when it leads to all the problems I had

you know and like yeah if you can't do your livelihood it's one thing I think anybody can relate to that but like I think now at the time you spiral into your own little world you know but I think back now like not just a lot like more than a lot of people in the world that are worse off than I've ever been do you know what

I mean so it's like uh it's just part of it you get sick you try and come back you know you have so many people around you though who want you to get back. And that's happened throughout your career, hasn't it? And I love what you say about kind of the loneliness of cycling being part of the appeal of it. You can just do it by yourself. But actually, you're in quite a strange position as an elite cyclist where you are an individual, but you are with a team as well. So which is the more natural, loner Mark cavendish or team mark cavendish which comes easier that's a very good question you know i don't know it's i'm so sure i'm two different people when i'm on a bike and off a bike i'm really quite uh withdrawn when i'm not on the

bike but when i'm on the bike like fundamentally it's not just knowing you need a team like i thrive off i always have like being with a group of people like like you said cycling is mad sport whereas an individual sport what a team sport and that's there's something so special in that in that only one person across the finish line one person stands on the podium but other riders have to sacrifice themselves their chance of glory to help that person cross the finish line like that takes a special mentality and actually when you're part of a group that's working for that you see that and you see that i know every single pedal rev I do is going to help me stand on the podium. But I'm with a group of guys that they know

every single pedal rev they do is going to help me stand on the podium. And that creates a special bond. It really does. These are special, special people that do that. And it's part of the beauty of this sport. I could just talk about the last three weeks around France and the amount of highs and lows we've lived,

the roller coaster we've lived, in three weeks is enough to bond you for life. That's not to mention the months, the years before that we've worked together to try and do it. I can't really put it into words what what it does to connect a group but uh that's the most beautiful thing you get from it more than any victories is these these relationships that that you build with with a close-knit group i know that you've said recently that cycling has taught you quite a lot about being a good dad and i also watched your documentary

uh where do you know what i would just i'd really love to be friends with your wife i think she's so amazing mark because actually i mean she has she has been your backup hasn't she at home and it was really it was a lovely documentary it's lovely to see you with the kids but i think you say in the documentary don't you that actually until the pandemic and the lockdowns, you hadn't spent that much time with your young family and with your wife. So is the knowledge about cycling and the relationship that that has to the rest of your life,

is that actually now quite a kind of new thing to you? I think one thing I always knew was that my family have known no different to what I do. I've always been away. And fundamentally, I'm able to give my family a good life from what I do. My wife's an absolute machine. Peter's a machine.

Like how she lives every day to date with the kids, getting them ready, boom, boom, boom, while I'm away. Without putting any stress on me, it's incredible. It's more impressive than any sports person can ever do. And for that, I'm super grateful. I've got beautiful kids, beautiful family, and they're brought up well.

I know they're brought up with manners and how to be with people. And hopefully I can give them the education of knowing what hard work and dedication means to whatever you do. Whether you want to be a sportsman, whether you want to do whatever you want to do, if you commit to something, you can do it. And, yeah, it's hard to be away. It's also hard to be away, you know, to not see them every night, to not see them every morning, you know.

If you know that they're happy and you're giving them everything you can give them for a head start in life, then you feel good about it, you know. Do you want any of your kids to cycle? I get asked this a lot, actually. I don't want, I actually don't want them to do anything that anybody else wants them to do. Like, I think I will support my kids in whatever they want to do.

And I don't believe... Yeah, I think as long as they are willing to work hard, you know, and not quit, you you know i'll give him support in in whatever they want to do i think we've got we've got one that wants to be a cyclist and he's uh he's completely crazy about it but i think he thinks he's already a pro cyclist you know he's six years old casper and like i've if i take myself away from being a biased dad like he's technically very good on a bicycle, but his last name could be both a blessing and a curse.

We don't know that. So if he wants to do it, if he doesn't take it for granted and he works hard, I support him. And obviously it helps that I can support him. I know what it is to be a cyclist, but if he wants to do something else, that's also fine. Do you ever go out for family cycle rides? No.

But with some of the kids yeah um me me and peter have been out twice on a bike together and uh yeah we don't really go out together she doesn't really like it you know and my eldest daughter she doesn't really like it you know enough, fair enough. I think, in fact, I know what so many people admire about you, Mark, is just your ability to pick yourself up and do it again after adversity, after injury, after somebody's elbow, all of that kind of stuff. And I think it's intriguing for people who aren't elite sports people to just know a bit about your mindset, about what enables you to do that.

Do you have anything more left in that bank? You know, could you carry on getting up again, doing something else again? I mean, not the Tour de France or whatever, but something again to that high level? I think anything I have ever done, if i've wanted to do it i've given my all to do it you know and that's the value that i try to instill in the kids the most you know is that you don't stop as a principal i cannot say to my kids you should be like this if i don't lead by example do you know and i think as a as physically being a cyclist there comes a time that you you know you won't be able to do it anymore you know and i know this is my last tour de france you know my last year was my last tour de france and actually i was content with last year being my tour de france and it was peter and the kids

that said like the kids oh do you mean you're not going to be a cyclist anymore like they come farther and Peter always said to me she's always said do not I do not want to sit here with you in 10 years

and you regret something like not doing something you know and so that's why I carried on and whatever I do

I will commit 100% because that's what I try and still my kids to do. But is it frightening having a horizon that doesn't have that level of cycling in it? And also there just are some tales that are frightening from the world of cycling once you've retired.

I think people are astonished and a bit heartbroken actually about what's happened to Sir Bradley Wiggins. It just seems extraordinary for his life to be quite bumpy as it is at the moment. So how do you feel when you look at your future? I'm very, very, very lucky. Very lucky to know that I'm able to finish my Tour de France career how I want to finish it. And I know for a sports person to get a fairy tale ending I know how fortunate I am for that I really really do you know I know what work

I've put into to do that but I know that I can be content with that part of my life that part of my career you know and uh and I can share it with with those people that being around me you know and and showing me love and support and actually bradley was one of those people you know he's an incredible person bradley like really an incredible person like sweet loving and uh i'm fortunate that i kind of grew into what i do br Brad was kind of just came there and that can be hard to deal with you know and uh but he's been one of my the biggest people support in my career and uh that means a lot you know what is the who is the Mark Cavendish who didn't ever get on a bike uh when he was young on the Isle of Man and turn into this amazing superstar.

What is the alternate life that might have been there? No idea. Like, you used to get asked, if you weren't a cyclist, what would you be? I was like, probably still be trying to be a cyclist, you know. I knew from really young that I wanted to do it. Like, it's really hard to say it without sounding overly confident that I knew when I was like 13 14 that I would I was good the way I'm trying like there's a

difference between winning being good and like you know you know you can do it like like uh for example when I was racing as an under-14, I'd ask to race with the under-16s, and then even then, I'd ask then, even in the under-16s, like, can I race with the under-18s? So then you know it's realistically a career path you can take, you know? And I knew from that moment it's what I wanted to do. I knew the team I wanted to go to, and it was a German team,

so I learned German at school, and I knew that I didn't have to be good as a 16, 17 year old. It was after that. So I stopped and I worked in a bank and earned money. So that when I was 18, I could go. And I kind of planned what I was going to do and knew I was going to do it. So I didn't, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question. Because it was always, it was always what I was going to I don't know the answer to that question because it was always

what I was going to do Is your wife good about the amount of lycra in your house? She actually quite likes it She's a very rare woman It's an unforgiving outfit But I think it's weird She's like I like you and you like her

I was like really? The shaved legs she's not a fan of I'm not a fan of it like there's two types of professional cyclists I don't know with amateur cyclists but there's two types of professional those that

shave their legs every day and those that the day the season finishes in October, they don't shave their legs till it starts again in January. And I'm that latter, do you know? It's just a faff, isn't it? You know?

It's just a faff. Mark, welcome to our world. Yes, it is a faff. Do you shave them all the way up or just as far as the light? Just as far as I need to. Oh, okay. That is a weird look.

That is a very weird look and with the tan lines I wonder the desk here I could show you like my ankle lines and the things and I'll show you on my arms you know

it's a bit it gets some funny looks at some beaches you know you go to France or Italy they know cycling and it's okay but you can get some funny looks

in in some countries yes I can imagine Mark Cavendish and to all of you who are incredibly excited about hearing from him i really really hope that you enjoyed that interview because i am painfully aware that i don't know all of the details of the world of pro cycling you know going back the 16 years 16 teams 25 years that he's been in it, all of that kind of stuff. And I know that sometimes that can be frustrating. So, you know, sometimes you and I

probably listen to our favourite authors being interviewed. And you know, when someone you can hear the interviewer hasn't read any of the books, it's frustrating. So I really hope that you just enjoyed hearing from Mark. Well, I think it's good to have a different sort of sports interview. Because I think sports people enjoy it too. Well, I know, actually. I don't think this is breaking any conferences, but I know that he had a nice time. Well, there we are.

So, did you feel his legs? Well, just a tiny... I mean, you know, you can't really... No, no, those days are gone. You can't get away with that kind of thing anymore. You cannot touch a celebrity's legs, no, anymore. But he does not make too much of a joke about that. But I did notice, actually, when he was showing me his tan mark,

which is just funny. I mean, when you go on holiday... How abrupt is it? as a cyclist i mean it's just it's like a different human has been joined at the ankle right so i mean mark cavendish is from the isle of man he would bear exactly the same original skin tone that you and i would have yeah and then this incredibly brown actual leg all the way up. But also he just had muscles where most humans don't have muscles. Why wasn't I there? I can't remember.

Anyway, Mark. You've gone because you didn't want to run the risk of having to go to Matt's leaving. Don't give away my secret. Matt's wife, who I had a lovely chat with last night, she sent you lots of love. She was genuinely disappointed not to meet you. What was her name?

Alison. Hello, Alison, if you're listening. I'm sorry I missed you. And we will miss Matt a lot, actually. Yep, and we wish him the very best of luck. He's going, where is he going? Some other organisation that does broadcasting. I don't know.

I think he's going to a declining radio station, Jane. And very best of luck to him. Unfortunately, we won't be listening because it's there at the same time. Oh my God, don't say that. Right. A little too close to the truth there. A little near the knuckle.

Many thanks indeed for listening. And for anyone who's listening in the States and is just outraged by various bits of ignorance expressed by either of us on the subject of anything. Tell us. We need to know. We're in the market for learning. Because I do think

this is going to be a rocky old couple of months. There's no getting away from that. It's going to be horrendous in many ways and hopefully enlightening in others. Yeah. Jane and Fee at times.radio. radio congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another off air with jane and fee

thank you if you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app.

Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.