Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Has anyone heard from the Virgin Mary?

Episode Date: October 23, 2024

Jane and Fi are both a bit tongue-tied in this episode - please bear with us. They cover stray cats, phallological museums and rude fruit. Plus,  the woman at the heart of the Sweet Bobby cat fishing story, Kirat Assi, shares her story. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Actually for me... Say it sister. There was trouble ahead. Trouble ahead. Our twenties were not that bad, in fact. Looking back on it. Pretty happy memories. A moonlit walk on the beach.

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Céline Dion! My dream? To be an international star. Could it happen again? Could Céline Dion happen again? I'm Thomas LeBlanc, and Céline Understood is a four-part series from CBC Podcasts and CBC News, where I pieced together the surprising circumstances that helped manufacture Celine Dion, the pop icon.

Celine Understood. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. more about it? Well with Norwegian Cruise Line you can travel to iconic locations across Northern Europe, the Mediterranean and the Greek Isles, unpacking only once and exploring multiple European destinations in one holiday. They offer exclusive go local shore excursions as well as an immersive program of onboard experiences. I can't lie I'm intrigued by up to 21 dining options on a single ship. Well Jane their fleet has so many unique bars, lounges and restaurants. They also have fantastic entertainment, shows, facilities on board. You wouldn't be short of things to do.

Plan ahead to discover your dream Europe 2025 cruise. It's certainly one way to beat the winter blues. Experience more at sea with Norwegian Cruise Life. For more information call 0333 222 6513. Contact your travel agent or visit ncl.com. Right, are we recording Eve? So the good news is Jane that Cool's is so much better. This is your cat, Cool Cat. Can I ask, I can't remember the age, I do apologise.

So he's coming up for 14. Gosh, so no spring chicken. No. And been through the mill, as regular listeners will understand, but this incident involving Barbara's feckless father occurred at the weekend. It did, yeah, but he's an awful lot better and he spent a very nice kind of daycare session away from home with a lot of antibiotics and injections and he's very much back on his feet. But the vet has advised me to try and catch Barbara's dad

and then take him round to the vet to see if he's got a microchip in him, in which case go and have a very severe word with the owners, which I'm terrified of doing actually. That's not something that I'd take lightly. Knock, knock, knock. Here's your cat back. Well, does he have a home? Well, I don't know. I think he looks too, I think he's too good looking for a stray but I think the strays in our street are good looking because there's just so much bins. East London for you. Well I think it's just London isn't it or a big city because they've got lots of very available snacks. I think they're

eating more fried chicken than my children. You're probably right. I did notice when you go to places like Greece, there are a lot I'm going to use the word mangy. There are a lot of mangy old cats knocking around, aren't there? Because they don't, I don't think and I don't want to offend anybody Greek here because I love Greece and it's many, many wonderful foods and exotic islands and Aegean. That's the sea there. Thank you, Muscarvey. And Corre's moisturizer. I love it all. Yes. But I'm not sure they have quite the same culture of keeping domestic cats. No, they don't. And so their cats just roam wild, don't they? We always make friends with a cat on holiday. Don't they have much choice in Greece? No. But anyway,

it's very good news. I was very worried about him for a while, Jane. I'm very, very worried because he's the OG of our family zoo and it just wouldn't be the same without him. Can we just be honest? The bills were mounting. That's why you come in today. So I've parted with more than our monthly food allowance before I got to work at nine o'clock on Monday morning. It's actually so much. It is incredible. And I know the vets are wonderful. They do a great job and they're sort of apologetic as well, aren't they? What they say.

Ooh. Yes, I'm afraid. Yeah, I was very, very glad to see our vet. But on the vet thing, I've been told off by Emily, On the vet thing, I've been told off by Emily who says that my Italian accent sounded Welsh. And Emily, I do apologize, I work very hard on my demeaning cultural stereotypes and I'll work much harder next time. But he has returned to being fat and happy. For what it's worth, I rather enjoy that. I think that's a good accent. Welcome to Pam who says thank you so much for mentioning the trailer for Gladiator 2. We're here to help Pam. Very much. All of your cultural horizons are covered here. I will say if you have got a minute or two to spare, it's worth a gander.

I immediately checked out the trailer and I was delighted to see Paul Mescult in action. He's been my favourite actor since I saw him in Normal People. He does have a certain something about him. I'm smitten. Pam, yes, I mean there's something, let's just be honest about it, there's something about the attire he's wearing and no doubt will wear throughout Gladiator 2. Let's hope. It's a little kilt isn't it? It's a little kilt. Yeah, but it's reminiscent of girls' sports kilt. We used to have those at school. I was thinking that. It's exactly little kilt. Yeah, but it's reminiscent of girls' sports kilts. We used to have those at school.

I was thinking that. It's exactly like you'd wear it with, you'd team it with an Airtex top with, weirdly, your initials on the left at the top. Yes. Now, Airtex shirts, can we go there for a minute? Yeah, if you like. I don't understand why they haven't made a comeback, because the Airtex material was brilliant.

I think the actual design of an Airtex shirt was lovely. Nobody wears them anymore at all but I think there's got to be some kind of hipster boutique type place that could do something with the Airtex. I'd wear an Airtex shirt again wouldn't you? Come on manufacturers, what's happened to Airtex? I'd also put my initials proudly on the left hand chest area. Yes, I think that'd be a very good idea. Possibly followed by BA brackets on us. Well, I think just JG the first. Why not? It's actually really worth considering.

It is. Pam, I wish I could tell you when Gladiator 2 is coming out, but I did see the trailer again the other night in the cinema when I went to see The Apprentice, that's the Sebastian Stan playing Donald Trump film. So it must be coming out soon, presumably the first week of November we'll get to see Gladiator 2 in all its glory. And Normal People obviously was the TV adaptation of the Sally Rooney book. And I don't know about you, Fee, I am seeing so many people on the London Underground reading the new Sally Rooney. Intermets.

Yeah, I say people. I mean almost, yeah, in fact, has been exclusively young women who are reading it. I've never seen that book, any book so prominently displayed in public as that new Sally Rooney. And does that make you want to read it yourself? I tell you what, it's a commitment at the moment. It's a big hardback. It is a big hardback. I've not read, I'm just going to say I haven't read any of her books. I have seen Normal People. I have not read any of her books. Okay. I tried Conversations with Friends after watching Normal People because I, like you and many, many others, really love Normal People.

And I just got a bit bewildered actually by it. It was, there was so much internal dialogue. Oh, is there? Okay. I couldn't quite, I couldn't quite manage it. And I just realized I was just a bit too old. Yeah, I think that's kind of the conclusion I've come to. Is it? That as so many very intelligent looking young women are clearly loving it, perhaps it might

not have a message for me. And I could be completely wrong, but from what I can understand, I do read the reviews with interest and they were very good. Intermezzo is once again set amongst young academics in the Dublin area and their various angsts. And I just wonder just how bad life honestly can be. Well that was... But I'm being really horrible. No, I don't think at all. So that's why I couldn't get to the end of

conversations with friends because actually I think you and I are in a different hinterland of relationship difficulties so I was just finding it difficult to stay with the angst of a younger relationship difficulty because actually for me, there was trouble ahead. Our twenties were not that bad in fact. Looking back on it, a moonlit walk on a beach. So instead of just harrumping my way through this book going, oh for God's sake, just sleep with him. You think this is bad? You just wait. I'm actually blushing talking about that. Yes, okay. All right. Let's just move along and welcome Bethany who says,

You're keeping me sane and grounded in the real world. I'm currently inside my dino den. Now Bethany, I gather from this email, it's a very short one, that's pretty much all she says. I've never been in touch, but I've been a fan since I was pregnant with the biggest dinosaur in this pic. And it's just, I love this photograph Bethany, thank you for sending it because it does take me back. I spent a lot of time as I've mentioned in the pop-up post office at home, very reluctantly playing the part of the post office owner. Very rarely was I allowed to be actually the post office owner, I was almost always the customer and it really used to piss me off. Bethany is at the stage where she's got somebody who looks like they're wearing a school uniform, pictures a bit blurry. That person looks about four or five I'm going to say. And there's

a toddler who's just asleep. Just asleep in the image within the dino den. Just clearly had a belly full of whatever day that was. So they've just gone for a kip, which is wonderful and it's something that the toddling community can do pretty much at will. And I was always rather jealous of that. Bethany, you're very much in the thick of that stage of your life. And we're here to say that we're very happy to support you through it. Yes and it passes so when you're absolutely just going fruit loop crazy with yet another round of whatever it is, Post Offices or Dino Dens or Soft Play then you know it's not forever, it's just not forever. And that scent of the overflowing nappy bin at the

soft play, it will leave you. Jo Malone has never done much with it, she could have done. No, it won't leave you for about ten years. But it will leave you. This is about our recent ranta. We read out an email yesterday. I thought it was a fantastic rant actually, just about... we welcome rants. Yeah, about taking responsibility for your own body later in life and making changes actually so you can get through the menopause. And this is Sharon in North Yorkshire who's got a lovely, lovely sign off. Always a pleasure, never a chore. And Sharon says, I just want to comment on your recent rant and their fiery email on the subject of menopause. I think for some women they may have a point. I seem to use menopause as an excuse for my weight gain, occasional irrational disposition and fatigue. As a service

to yourselves and your wonderful listeners, I will embrace the views of this individual and report back sometime in 2025. Well Sharon, please do because it would be lovely to hear from you then. We were talking about health matters on our afternoon programme which is? 2-4 Monday to Thursday on Times Radio and you can listen for free on a DAB digital radio and I think more conveniently on the Times Radio app. Cost nought pence. Well done sister.

We were talking about health news and We've got a lovely resident GP who comes on every Tuesday So if you want to send us an inquiry about something health related, we will put it to dr. Rachel cook We will put it to we will put it to dr. Rachel Clark board ward ward Clark That's a job in the NHS Ward. Ward. Ward Clark. That's a job in the NHS. Do you know what, I know that Eve quite often tidies up our mess, but just leave that in. That's just absolutely terrible. It's like three tries to reverse around a corner and I went over the curb. Right, so Dr Rachel, I think it's safer to say that. And can I

just point people in the direction of a really really brilliant article written by another doctor, Dr. Philippa Kaye in yesterday's Times. You can find that on the app as well, which was just a scientific medical explanation of the levels of HRT that are acceptable in this country as prescribed by NICE. And it was really useful because there's been a lot of chat recently about high doses of HRT and the effect that that might be having on your body. It also talks about testosterone, which I think is still quite a murky subject with regard to HRT in this country because it's not part of a usual NHS HRT package. Although some women have been helped by taking it. They certainly have and you can definitely ask your GP for it but I found it it's a long read I think it's

probably you know it'll take you six or seven minutes to get through it but it's really good so I'll just point people in the direction of that as well. Stephanie says a longtime listener I'm not a first-time emailer perhaps I'll get lucky this time Rachel sorry, sorry, I've just called you. See, this is where confusion sets in. Stephanie, you have got lucky. We both are on HRT, by the way. I might change my dose. I was inspired by the lady at the Cheltenham Literature Festival who'd swapped the book

display around so as to hide Boris Johnson's autobiography. I went into Waterstones in Liverpool with the intention of doing exactly the same but guess what? In Liverpool they're not even stocking it. I do think that was probably just a sound economic decision made by the people who run Waterstones in Liverpool where Mr Johnson is not popular. Well, do you want to explain why? Well, he was once very rude about Liverpool in the Spectator magazine and I'm not going to say that the people of Liverpool bear a grudge, but they don't forget and actually I can't blame them in this case.

It was just a really unnecessary jibe at the people of Liverpool, which I don't think went down at all well. And he was sent by Michael Howard, who was then leader of the Conservative Party, to Liverpool to apologise, which I thought was a very good leadership move. Don't just write another article saying that you're sorry, actually go and face people, go and stand in a room and say you're sorry. Because Boris Johnson had written about a kind of victim status. It was to do with Hillsborough and it, you know, what happened to Hillsborough was awful and grotesque and he just shouldn't, should not have said it. Particularly because there's so many of those families battled for decades to get justice and that's not over entirely.

But anyway, Michael Howard, interestingly, is a big fan of Liverpool Football Club. So I think he probably felt a certain, he was, there was a link that he had to the city or felt he had. So that probably played a part as well. But anyway, yeah, so I'm quite intrigued though by the fact that Waterstones in Liverpool just said, it's in Bold Street, the big Waterstones there, just said no, we're not having it, it won't sell. Interestingly, I gather that the sales figures for the preposterously named Unleashed, although good fee, have not been at the level that might have been expected. So there you go. Well, there you have it. This morning I was at Manchester Airport. Carries on Stephanie. See the photograph there about what they've done in the bookshop and

what they've done is that they put Unleashed in a relatively prominent position because I imagine there are people buying it, well they clearly are, but then they put more copies of the parody which is called Unhinged beneath it. So you've got a choice. Stephanie thank you for that. She says that we are keeping homesickness at bay and making her feel more connected to the UK. So Stephanie, you don't tell us where you are, but I hope wherever it is, it's bearable.

Mum's gone to Iceland, dear Jane and Fee. I'm listening to your recent podcast in the early hours, obviously, that references Trump's Arnold Palmer 5-iron obsession, as well as Carrot's Esther Ransom would be proud of. So I minded to tell you this it's my birthday on Friday Judith many happy returns happy birthday and my husband has announced that he's taking me to Iceland thankfully he meant the country not the shop although I'm not averse to a frozen prawn ring that's a Julian Clary reference it was a very generous present and something of a surprise given his I never know how to say that word, sobriquet? Is that right? Ooh, soubriquet.

Soubriquet. But I, listen on today's performance, I've got no idea. Whatever. His nickname, Mr. Rigsby. Is that Rising Dam? Yeah, it is. That's Leonard Rossiter. Yeah. But I'm not looking a gift reindeer in the mouth and I've researched and planned our itinerary in addition to a boat trip to see the northern lights, although I could have just looked out of the kitchen window as it turns out, a thermal hot spring in a restaurant serving shark pickled in wee,

we'll be visiting the world's only phallological museum. It promises me all sorts of fascinating delights and curios as well as a unique gift shop in a cafe. Are you telling us, Judith? We don't want to see any of it, or do we? Well, where one can munch on penis waffles, sweet or savoury, and sip cocktails for an hour and an hour. I'll just leave it there, if I'm not too traumatised I shall report back next week when I'll be a year older and undoubtedly wiser. Well, Judith please do, we'd like some pictures, we'd like some descriptions, and also we'd just like to know who else is visiting the museum? Yes, I was lying. Obviously we want images. Have a lovely time and actually that's a lovely

thoughtful thing. Do we know Hubby's name? We don't know Hubby's name. My chair just squeaked. We don't know Hubby's name. We'd also like to know Hubby's name. Yeah. I wonder whether he's seeing that as a little kind of romantic excursion. What to a... A phallological museum. Certainly. Well, I think she probably just preferred to watch the gladiator 2 trail, didn't she really? Incidentally, apparently the family of Arnold Palmer have complained. I'm not surprised.

Apparently he wasn't a fan of Donald Trump at all, compare the man. But Donald Trump marches across the cultural landscape just bringing in any old stuff that he wants to. I mean, nearly every single tune that he's used as part of his campaigns or whatever it is, the artist has then said, nope, nope, take it away, I don't want to be associated. Yeah. But the other day he used Arvai Maria. I mean, has anybody heard from the Virgin Mary about this? Well, yeah, I mean his religion is weird, isn't it?

He did refuse to answer a question about religion, didn't he, on one of his recent interviews. He was trying to carry favour with the Christian voting contingent in America, but he was asked what his favourite passage from the Bible was or even his favourite gospel, maybe even just his favourite bloke from the Bible, and he just couldn't go there. He really didn't seem to know. I bet he couldn't. No. Isn't that funny? Funny. It's extraordinary. So, are there two possibilities? Is he just getting forgetful or he doesn't know what

he's talking about? Either which one should disbar him from being the leader of the free world. I'm just saying, another point of view is available but not on this podcast. Best regards coming from Alison. I was particularly amused by your mention of first shoes yesterday as not only did I keep my two daughters first shoes which are indeed scuffed Navy t-bars around 1990 and 1992. I kept the boxes, not certain how or why. And the boxes are intriguing because we've got a Billy shoe which is a four and a half G start right t-bar and then there's a William shoe which is a three F start right t-bar. They're both Pacific blue so I wonder

whether there was a bill as well. I mean they just got stuck on the Williams. Yeah they have a bit. Very similar. Very cute shoes though. There is something about, what is it about small shoes? Oh they're just divine. I've framed my daughters and my son's first football boots. The actual? Yeah, they're on the wall like pictures. They're just lovely. They are just lovely. That's a lovely idea. But they are scuffed. Yeah. And you just think that's... I still can't really understand why they're so scuffed. Scuffed? Well, they must have been active. Well, they were because that was in the days when we walked our children around. Actually, we're doing a serious interview today, aren't we?

Because Frank Cottrell-Boyce has said that there's a childhood happiness recession in this country. So we're going to discuss that. And I know what he's referring to. I do too. But it's that whole business of people. I was more alarmed not by people not reading to their children as much but the idea that you wouldn't be talking to your children as much even when they can't speak to you you should absolutely still be talking to them I mean you can tell them the great beauty of this is you can tell be fascinated. Exactly, get it out. She's right, you won't get another chance.

So maybe you could just sit down and play Desert Island Discs with them. There'd be Kirsty. And then. Oh sorry, there'd be Lauren, sorry. And yep, you could pop in some nice little tunes along the way. It's one of the few times, Jamie, when I do get really judgy actually when I see families in restaurants and the kids are all on screens and the parents are having a meal. And I really, really, really sympathise and understand family meals aren't fun, that

it's not going out like you used to go out before you had kids and it can often be difficult and also it's often at the wrong time. The kids are tired, they're not particularly hungry, you know, the food takes ages to arrive, it's noisy, isn't it? The restaurant's difficult for them, so I completely get all of that. But I do find it a bit heartbreaking when, you know, the kids are just on a screen so you can have a nice chat. You just know that further down the line you're going to have a right old wrangle getting them off screens and it is a wrangle in the teenage years to get them off screens and you know maybe going out for a meal is

the time where you just show that the adult world is fun and it doesn't have screens in it. So this is what we do when we're grown up and we're free to choose where we want to be and look all around you and someone brings you your food, you know, all the nice stuff about it. I just think, oh, there's trouble brewing there. There is trouble brewing. I mean, I absolutely get it. And I mean, I get what you've just said. My real beef is with people who are pushing a child in a buggy and the child in the buggy is looking at a screen when particularly if you're, well actually not, I was going to

say particularly if you're in a city like London, there's so much going on. Oh if you're not country-sized even better Jane. Country-sized even better, you can just say, look at that bird. Sorry, I'm sounding like I'm going to write a parenting manual and I would believe me, no one is less equipped to do that. But there is so much to look at. Buses, funny people, dogs. Just witter on about it. Yeah. But it's easy for us to say from an advantage point because actually when our kids were tiny there just

wasn't so much screenage around so we didn't have an alternative which would have been far more appealing and look I'm certainly by Wednesday I'm an arch hypocrite because where was I on the morning that CBeebies opened at six o'clock watching CBeebies I was waiting for it to open yeah I was there waiting not on my own for it to open and I was there waiting, not on my own, for it to open and I was profoundly grateful when it did. Thank you to Susan who sent us. Not rude photographs of vegetables and actually of course- Well, quite rude. Well, not really. She said she grew these tomatoes and strictly speaking aren't they

a fruit? They are. So you're right, they're not rude vegetables. And it's only happened once, she says, and I think it's very strange. And one of her tomatoes looks a bit like a duck that you'd have in your bath. It does, yeah. Yeah. And yes, there is one that looks like a set of testicles with a micro-willy attached. And the other one I'll leave to Vy to describe. Well the other one looks like a happy chap. Thank you Susan.

Would you like that in Welsh? No, really I don't think we need that. Susan, I don't understand why you've only grown, I mean it just happened that once when you grew those tomatoes. Have things just calmed down in your neck of the woods since then? What's gone on? I don't know. Riveting. Right, we've got a really, really, really interesting guest for you in this edition of the podcast. If you're not familiar with what cat fishing is, by the end of listening to this interview you will know all about it and realise just how damaging it is to a person's life.

So off we go, we'll meet on the other side. This episode of Off Air is sponsored by the National Art Pass. Now Jane, there's nothing I like better than a trip to a gallery or a museum on a rainy afternoon. And let's be honest, we get quite a lot of those in the UK, don't we? I do feel that looking at a bit of art is more than just kind of looking at a bit of art, if you know what I mean. I think it can really stay with you long after the visit, kind of feeds the soul. Yeah, you're onto something there because scientific research suggests that regularly looking at art could help you live longer, plus lots of other well-known benefits to boost your wellbeing and help reduce stress.

So why not get a National Art Pass? It gives you free and half price entry at hundreds of museums and galleries and only costs £59.25 for an individual pass and there's a reduced price for under £30 and you can also purchase plus one and plus kids add-ons. Free or half price entry and a chance of living longer, I am sold. The National Art Pass. See more, live more. Get your pass at artfund.org forward slash off air. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Céline Dion.

My dream, to be international star. I'm Thomas LeBlanc, and Celine Understood is a four-part series from CBC Podcasts and CBC News, where I pieced together the surprising circumstances that helped manufacture Celine Dion, the pop icon. Celine Understood, available wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. AKS.com Keirat Asi has been the victim of a really horrible modern crime. It's catfishing. When somebody poses as a love interest or tries to become an important person in your life,

reeling you in, often for money, although that wasn't the impetus in Keirat's case. She thought she was having chats with Bobby, a cardiologist from West London, who had pinged her on Facebook. The two shared contacts within their Sikh communities and over time their online relationship deepened and eventually Bobby asked Kira to marry him. What seems extraordinary is that across these nine years of a blossoming relationship, the two had never met in person and when Keira did finally meet him her world collapsed around her. More on that in a moment. Keira, a very good afternoon from both of us. How are you today? I'm okay, it's been a tough few

days but I think I'm just taking it a day at a time. Well, I mean we both want to say that we really send you our love because what you've been through is quite remarkable and as we've been saying when we've just mentioned your story to our listeners throughout the afternoon, the cruelest thing is that somebody has taken away a decade of your life that you really can't get back. So can you explain to us how it all started? How did you first meet Bobby? Well I didn't meet Bobby first, I met his younger brother online first who was posing

as my cousin's boyfriend and they'd fallen out and I checked with my cousin before responding because I don't really respond to people on social media or didn't especially then either. And she asked me to talk to him and then from there, there were things happened and then she introduced me to the brother who I still didn't contact, I didn't communicate with and then eventually the brother who was Bobby contacted me to say thank you for something that I'd done was Bobby contacted me to say thank you for something that I'd done and from there gradually every once in a while he'd contact me. It was a very gradual thing and I knew who they were, I knew how they were related, how they were extended family. I happened to meet him by chance a few months later in Brighton but again we weren't at that time, but I did try to speak to him. But it wasn't a communication.

The early years weren't something that were, sort of he wasn't a close friend or anything like that. It was just out of community, respectfulness, family, respect, that you speak to them politely and you engage in the conversation that he kept initiating with me. And it was just

pleasant, it was respectful, it was nice, he told me more, you know, it's like TMI as you say too much information sometimes and it was like okay, I don't know why he's talking to me but you just respectfully talk back, that was it really and then it progressed into I think 2014 when was when it started becoming intense when he was in his second marriage so he'd been divorced in that time got married again in that time I'd been speaking to his wife everything like that and I was in you know I kept getting pulled into their sort of arguments as a couple or whatever it was and I used to get really annoyed because I was in my own relationship. And then later on when he was left by himself and unwell, his cousins and stuff were kept saying to me that he really liked me and he'd said to me he was in love with me and I was like no he's just very, very unwell,

I'm just the only shoulder he's got to lean on at the moment properly. That's his age, his, you know, that kind of thing. And I, you know, so that's what it was. And then it took a few months after that of him nearly dying, et cetera, and constantly telling me that he loved me. Then I eventually gave in when I thought by accident he'd sent me something on Valentine's Day. But at that point he was in palliative care and he only had a few months to live. We'll talk more about those kind of extreme things that happen to Bobby, but just to go back to all of the points you've made there, because it's so important in the story, isn't it?

You didn't chase him and he was having these conversations with you on Facebook where you just felt that you were talking to a guy who needed a friend, valued your friendship, valued your wisdom, was asking you kind of reasonable questions, was asking a reasonable amount of your energy and your emotion. There weren't those huge red flags at the beginning of this were there? Not at all. On the social media press, I eventually were talking on WhatsApp as well so there were phone numbers involved but we talked on Skype too at that early stage and then later on again but at that point it wasn't

about video calling because it wasn't a big thing back then. It was more to get off Facebook because Facebook Messenger or being online on Facebook everybody could see and everybody used to talk. But very early, like those profiles, my own cousins, my first cousins were on those profiles, my uncles were on that, the fake profiles. Everyone thought they were following a real person. Yeah. And as you detail in the documentary, which you've made for Netflix and also in the podcast that you made with Tortoise, there were so many other people, so many other profiles involved in this.

So how were you to know with all of that backup that anything was awry? But then these extraordinary things start happening to Bobby. He is the victim of a shooting in Kenya, which you find out about online too. And then he's moved over to New York, isn't he? Because he tells you that he's had to join a witness protection scheme. Was there anything about those two incidents where you thought, God, this is a lot to happen in one man's life? Well, when the shooting incident happened, it was kind of like I was still quite far removed from it all. I mean, he was married. he had his family there. So it had nothing to do with me, as

such. I think my cousin was there at the time, if I remember correctly, but she was telling me a lot herself. And I was more concerned for her being tangled up in something that she shouldn't be involved in. She's quite young and I didn't understand what she was doing. So I was kind of warning her off from getting too involved. But yes, the shooting incident, you know, in Kenya, we've all had, if you've got a Kenyan background, you know, there used to be a lot of incidents like that. We were probably all old families in Kenya, we'll all know of something that happened to somebody. But they're less common now, but they do occasionally still happen but again like I wasn't you're sad obviously it's upsetting to hear something like that and the wife's talking to you

their friends Bobby's friend one of Bobby's friends was talking to me and my cousin was talking to me and I was like okay and then later on the whole witness protection thing, he'd already apparently been in and out of witness protection once. So, and when it happened, I wasn't actually I was away at an awards night. So then absolutely knew I was going to be unavailable. And I'd walked in at sort of five o'clock in the morning to get messages to say this had happened. So I didn't know anything about it then. And again, really, I wasn't close enough to ask too many questions. It wasn't my business, I felt, because he had family with him around him. His cousin was there. The medical team was there in the hospital in

Kenya from where he got transferred. So I was a bit confused. But later on, when things got a bit strange, I did look things up. I did get angry that he couldn't be transferred to the UK and I looked up witness protection in the US. I found some email addresses and some phone numbers and I spoke to the consultant to say I'm taking matters into my own hands. But then I was stopped because I was told that I like, I shouldn't even know that he's in witness protection anyway and I would ruin absolutely everything if I did that and the hospital, the team that was looking after him, they would deal with that side of

things. So you were held at arm's length. But obviously your emotions were hugely played during that time Kirat because he was supposedly so unwell and he was asking you to emotionally care for him and his very poor mental state. I mean, I'm sorry we don't have enough time to really talk about the whole nine years and I don't want to seem rude or blunt in trying to take you towards the end of the story. Both Jane and I would really urge people to watch the documentary. it's so extraordinary. But to spool forward to the time at which you said to him, look, I've agreed to marry you and I still haven't met you, you've got to come to this country and we've got to meet in person. What would you describe your mental state as being like

by that time? I was an absolute wreck at that time. I think I'd entered the relationship with him in February 2015. By October of that year, the bad stuff had started. I'd started losing weight quite rapidly within weeks. And yeah, I was eventually a size sort of zero six stone. But that whole, the coercive control, the gaslighting from all these different people suddenly. And you know, I'm somebody who's very sure of myself,

very certain, very logical to be told by lots of different people, including your own cousin that no, you might have it wrong, you've misjudged this or this isn't right. You start doubting yourself, you're also scared of doing things, you're getting shouted at, told you're wrong, don't do this, your friends are wrong. Everything I was doing was incorrect and I was doing, I was investigating a lot because things were unbelievable but then I'd be checking with people who I thought knew to be real in real life But the versions of them I was speaking to

were often unreal So I thought I was verifying it with somebody but I didn't know they were all One person. Yeah, so who did that one person turn out to be Kira? It turned out to be that cousin that I was talking about a little while ago. So Yeah at? It turned out to be that cousin that I was talking about a little while ago so yeah. So Bobby was just a completely made-up fiction although based on a real man, a real guy who lived with his wife and his baby down in Brighton but the creation of the love interest for you of the love interest for you was in the imagination and then in the online reality created by your cousin and it's such a monumental thing to try and understand why your cousin Simran did this to you. Are you any closer to

understanding her motivation? I've given up trying to find out, I've got no idea. I mean I was in my own relationship, I thought Bobby was in his, I didn't give over any money, I was so careful even when he asked for my passport details I refused to give them over and that was to a partner, you know, I just I'm so careful. I was trying to verify things as I was going along, I was speaking to family but the truth was mixed up in the lies because she would have known everybody and obviously she's been stalking Bobby and his family for a long time because when the approach was made those profiles were functioning profiles with all those friends on them already. People who disdain to this day still believe that

they couldn't be fooled. I mean it was such a complicated thing that she did as well. All of those people that you've referred to, the medics who were looking after Bobbie supposedly in New York, the people who were in a WhatsApp group with you talking through what had happened to him in the witness protection. They were all fakes created by her. She can't be prosecuted for what she did to you, which seems extraordinary, Kirat. How do you feel about that? The criminal case has actually been reopened.

I don't know if she can or can't, but there is no catfishing law. If, as lots of people keep talking about or can't but there is no catfishing law if, as lots of people keep talking about it, there is no law for catfishing because I've been told other laws exist to cover for damage done by catfishing caused harm caused you know by catfishing. But there is no actual crime of catfishing so even though she was impersonating people, putting up false identities and luring you in, that's not

under current UK law an actual crime? Absolutely not, no and it's far more common than people realise. Well the damage that has been done to your life, I think, is unforgivable, really, Keirat. And I really admire you for being so open and public about what you've been through, because I know that you want more people to know about how easy it is for this to happen, don't you? It is that. It is about knowing like anybody can be a victim whether it's romance, financial, whatever it is just being abused online you know you can have the coercive and controlling behavior issue online as well it doesn't have to happen in real life all of that can

happen online but I think the other thing is our behavior, like the trolls and everything, we don't have safe spaces for victims to speak about these things. I want the very least for victims to be able to go into a police station and be heard, believed. I didn't have that. I've had to fight every step of the way.

You know, you should be able to talk to a family member, a friend, and be believed. It's just, you know, you should be able to talk to a family member, a friend, and be believed. It's just, you know, the person who's doing that to you is deliberately made it out to be so you're crazy. They know you're going to be victim shamed for saying something like this. So they count on it. And it's understanding that. And I mean, immediately, when I came out of this, three, when I, the podcast podcast first came out three male friends in my own circle came forward to share their stories with me. They wouldn't dream of doing it otherwise you know like why would you do why it's it's just the shaming. And we know it's wrong. So why are we exactly but, but you're... Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying.

You are very brave to talk to people about a vulnerability because that's what somebody has played into. And so many people just wouldn't really be capable of doing that. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us this afternoon. Since making the documentary and the podcast, Kira, do you feel a bit better about everything? Where are you in your life today? Well, I think the documentary coming out has obviously set me back in a sense, the sense of obviously being out there. I can't sort of just get on with my life at the moment.

I don't know what's going to happen after the fuss and this all dies down. What I would want out of this is some positivity, some change, some behavioral change for the issues that I raise constantly to be talked about, discussions start happening and maybe we think about how we behave online. But I hope to just basically continue with my life and try to enjoy the life that I have left and I'm just trying really hard to rebuild my life and working hard to do that and make the most of what I can and just stay positive and grounded and get back to the old me that I was. Absolutely, well all hail to you for that. It's very good of you to talk to us today, that's Keirat Assi and the documentary

Sweet Bobby is available on Netflix now. The cousin in question Simran has said to Netflix, because obviously they contacted her to be part of that documentary, an opportunity she turned down. She says she considers this a private matter and strongly objects to what she describes as unfounded and damaging accusations. She says it involves events that began when she was a schoolgirl. Do you know what? It's such a disturbing watch and because you know what it is when you start watching that documentary, that the whole thing is just a horrible, horrible personal fraud and deception. It is very painful to watch the early descriptions that Kirak gives of how she felt about Bobby and the excitement that she felt and how it all brewed up so gently in the way that so many relationships

do. Your friends, you know, they go and meet somebody else, maybe marry somebody else, you might do the same thing, but there's a little seed, you know, that you just don't forget and it grows into something. And it's very easy to watch the documentary constantly shouting at the TV, why didn't you get on a plane to New York? Why didn't you make him come over? Why didn't your family go and see his family? But you know she was just hoping you know like on a steeple chase that the next jump would be the one that brought you closer to the finish line. It would all be resolved. It's a very, I was going to say it's a very 21st century tale. It is isn't it? Technology wasn't there to allow this to be done to somebody in previous years.

No, but it's a good point because I think we've always had the capacity, haven't we, to believe in love and people who in the war believed that the young man who had headed off was absolutely theirs, but in fact he might have been writing to other people too. You know, there are some well-worn tragedies, aren't there, throughout time. But I think what's amazing about this is just how you have it confirmed by your technology. So in Keira's case, she was part of a whole Facebook group and WhatsApp groups of people created to lure her in even more. And that wouldn't have happened. But to what end?

That's the bit I'm still... Well, that's the weird thing that still isn't explained. And because there's been no criminal prosecution, so there hasn't been a court case where the perpetrator can be really, really pushed on the why and the how and the wherefore. There's been a civil case but not a criminal case. So no, that's still really unresolved. But it's a mental health difficulty, isn't it? That kind of impersonation and it's all too easy now.

On a much lighter note, and because of your advice and indeed the advice of listeners, I have now rejoined Disney Plus and I'm trying to watch Riders, although I need to make some adjustments because I tried last night and it told me I was too young because it wasn't suitable for the 14s and under. So I had all the settings wrong. I'm going to have to try again tonight. You certainly are. But that's good to know. That is good to know actually because there are quite a few scenes just in episode one. That wouldn't be suitable for me. They really wouldn't be, they wouldn't be suitable for you at all, Jane. And also with your mild

fear of flying, that wouldn't help. Oh my god. Yep. Okay, perhaps. Well, I don't know. Shall I try? I will, perhaps I will try because I want to see Danny Dyer's god. Yeah. Okay, perhaps, well, I don't know, shall I try? Perhaps I will try because I want to see Dani Dyer's wig so I will, I'll give it another go. Not a euphemism. And off she goes. Not everything is. It really isn't. Honestly, it isn't. Thank you for taking part in whatever this has been. And we've had our moments today, there's no doubt about it. Right, what's the address of the email? It is... the electronic mail communication method is janeandphi at times.radio. Do get in touch. Have you got any cranberry sauce?

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