Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Has she farted in front of you? (with Maria McErlane)

Episode Date: December 14, 2023

It's an all-girl action-pack this evening as team Jane and Fi are off for their Christmas dinner!Jane and Fi are talking about avoiding social events (we're sure it's unrelated), awkward train rides and political cutlery.They're joined by actress Maria McErlane to discuss her new memoir ‘Bumps in the Road'.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. We are about to go on our team Christmas dinner outing this evening. It's an all-girl action pack because Einar Orn's feeling a little under the weather.

Oh, I didn't know he's not going to come. No, so it's just the six of us. It is ladies night out. It's ladies night. Okay, and our executive, he couldn't come either. He can't come. No, that's Henry Tribe. He's made up a couple of excuses. I think I might have caught him out actually because once it was a Spurs match and then it turned out it was just his family in Suffolk, I think he got his messages muddled up I mean if you're going to come up with an excuse it's actually almost worth just putting up

with the social event because you can very easily these days, you can trip up you can just trip up and we were talking earlier weren't we about social anxiety which I'm not in any way disputing I know it exists because I think I have it myself. I know I do. Every single time I'm invited to something,

generally speaking, I mildly dread it. I think nearly everybody in a room feels that. Do they? Honestly? Yes. On the other hand, though, I will always go. I don't lie and make up an excuse. I'll always go, unless I'm terribly ill or something. And sometimes I actually have these fantasies where I think,

perhaps I've just come down with a severe sounding head cold, but which actually doesn't make you feel very ill. So in other words, you can justify not going because you sound ill, but in fact, you can just spend a night in quite happily because you don't feel too bad at all. But it's never happened to me. So in the end, I always end up going. And more often than not, I'm really glad I did make the effort to go.

So the huge problem also, I get a bit stuck sometimes just on the manners thing because I do think, gosh, if everybody didn't turn up, then there's some poor hostess feeling thoroughly unpopular and maligned, when in fact they're not. It's just that everybody's a bit, I mean, it's not I can't be bothered. It's just I might feel a bit uncomfortable myself, so I'm not going to go. But I tell you what, also, nobody, as long as you don't tip over into most people not going to a party,

nobody does notice if you don't go. No, that's also true. I don't go, oh my God, I went to this amazing party back in 1998, but Jane Garvey wasn't there. She didn't turn up. Said she had a head cold. So it's kind of okay. It's okay if you don't. But we don't want anybody else flaking out of tonight's goose and turkey pie.

Come on, kids. That's just one of the options, isn't it? Is there a set menu? It's a festive set menu. It's three courses and a cracker. Oh. Yeah, and I think you're allowed a side. Oh, what about a free fizz?

Is that included? No, I don't think so. Oh. No. And you and I are paying. We should point this out. Well, I wonder why we should point it out. Well, just suppose.

Well, yes, that's nice. No, so it's not. I mean, it's not. You could pretend it's free to you. And I've just heard you say that you're paying. And thank you very much. And I'll pretend that you're buying it for me. And then it'll feel free.

It'll be absolutely lovely. Adults who drink squash. Oh, yes. Leslie says, I just wanted to tell you about my experience as a carer with regards to squash encouraging those that you care for to drink enough water can be really difficult one of the problems being that increased medication and other medical conditions can actually leave a bad taste in the mouth and added to that tap water can have a strange taste depending on where you are in the country that's very true isn't it there's london tap water is very different liverpool tap water i'm not just saying this is quite nice it's not

the same as it's soft water in liverpool i think hard water down here isn't it i like the hard water of london do you okay leslie says i've had a huge amount of success in introducing squash which even when a small amount is used makes staying hydrated a lot easier and more enjoyable. I've come across the idea that squash is for children before but I've honestly had so much positive feedback from adults who feeling suddenly that they have permission to use it have improved their intake of water greatly by adding a bit of squash and my own favourite is orange and pineapple. That's interesting because I think keeping people you're caring for, particularly the very frail and elderly, hydrated is a bit of a strain usually.

Yeah, I think you'll allow squash then. Yeah, definitely. I've never come across a pineapple squash. Well, it's orange and pineapple. Yes, I think that's quite popular. Is it? Yes. Interesting.

But the more sophisticated squash. Okay. Squasher. Pam, south of Boston. She's back. She's back, yep back yep and she says thank you for your advice on where to stay in london seems like there's a lot of great apartments in hampshire teeth so that's where we'll try to stay now you see i got that confused pam because i

thought that your husband was coming over on his own uh but i take your point now that you're coming together but it's his first time in the London town. Did you know that? I think I did. Our youngest daughter is doing a semester abroad in Dublin, so we thought we'd visit her, then pop over to London for a few days. I'm trying to finagle, that's just such a great word, isn't it? I'm trying to finagle some additional lodging in either the UK or Ireland with family, friends and distant relatives

to stay another couple of weeks so I can go to the Chelsea Flower Show and the Hay on Wybook Festival. Oh my goodness. Two bucket list destinations and then Pam says, Fee, please come back to Boston. You probably stayed in either the Royal Sinesta or the Kendall Square Marriott

and it was. It was the Marriott. Oh, was it? And Pam says, yes, it is, across the river from Boston. It's not really in Boston. So I'll come back and try and do it better next time. And then Pam promises that when she's got more time, she's going to write again with two stories of celebrity encounters on the streets of Boston, the first with Bryn Terfel, the great Welsh baritone,

and the second with Sarah Lancashire, the best actor in the world. Well, you've hit the heady heights there. Oh, Sarah Lancashire. Oh my God, she was doing in Boston. We're going to have to wait and find out. Is it a year since... I've forgotten what that programme was called.

Happy Valley. Happy Valley. Was it a year ago that that reached its finale and we could talk of nothing else? It might have been. Or was it the year before? Or was that Line of Duty? I didn't really like Line of Duty.

Did you not? I'm sticking with Vigil, with the drama about the drones. And it did strike me that, really, I've always secretly wanted a job where I could be called mum by a lot of people. It's very appealing. It's incredibly appealing. It comes through in your dreams, doesn't it? You're quite often in uniform, Jane.

I'm basically just in charge. I think that's what my... Because in real life, I'm not in charge of anything. Well... Linda in New Zealand says, hearing Jane talk about being an old boot on a bus, knocking at the teenagers who were swearing, reminded me of a classic youth encounter I had on a French train many years ago.

I was alone in one of those neat little compartments. The trains, you know, have a corridor along one side. At a major station, hordes of people got on and my comfortable little compartment filled up with a group of English lads. I figured they'd been partying the night before. They all looked weary and a bit grubby as they threw their backpacks wherever they could find space. Off we went. The young men started chatting

and one of them began to describe the best masturbatory experience he'd ever had. The others all pitched in with different stories of a similar nature. They all seemed pretty satisfied with their efforts and congratulated various members of the group on their inventiveness. I continued to gaze out of the window, resting my elbow on the sill so I could cover the smile twitching under my fingertips. We reached my destination before we reached that of the lads. As I climbed over them and their luggage, I summoned my cheeriest voice and wished them all many, many happy adventures on their travels.

Oh, to have been a fly on the wall after I left that compartment. Brilliant. Linda, thank you very much. But also, I just found that extraordinary that a group of men would sit around discussing their dream-like masturbatory experiences. They were teenagers. Yeah. I don't think. Did you ever do that

as a lady teen? What? Discuss? Sexual fantasies on a train? Mum. See, I'd really like it. I'm not going to do it. No, I am not doing it. I think I was of the generation that thought that women didn't do it anyway. Or possibly couldn't.

Very vulgar. Very dangerous. Extremely dangerous. Claire is in Warwickshire. She loves our work. And she's got a four-year-old who likes to belt out her own version. Well, it's just what she thinks the Christmas carols are. So instead of singing Ding Dong Merrily on High,

her four-year-old sings Ding Dong Jeremy the Pie, He's Got a Grateful Sheep. And Claire says which Jeremy she's referring to is unconfirmed, although with a toy dog called Alan and an imaginary brother Derek, she's got a very good imagination. Wonderful. She's making Christmas fun for you. Yes, that's excellent. as fun for you. Yes, that's excellent. Now, what was I going to say? Oh yes, North by Northamptonshire, which cropped

up in our conversation on the podcast and on the Times Radio show with Catherine Jakeways yesterday because she wrote North by Northamptonshire. I tried to find it on BBC Sounds, couldn't find it. Thank you to everybody who's pointed out and particularly thanks to Ian because I've got Ian's email in front of me. it is available on Audible.

And so if you do want it, you've got to pay for it. Now, just by pure... I just happened to have Catherine's number, so I WhatsAppped her and told her that it was on Audible and she didn't know much about it. She only wrote the thing, so what would she know? But somebody somewhere is making money out of her work. Well, I hope an agent is looking into it. Yes, I certainly hope so.

Margaret writes on the topic of sitting on the pilot's lap. On the topic of sitting in the driver's cab, many years ago a friend arrived at a platform just as the passenger doors had shut. The driver took pity on her and her boyfriend and let them sit with him in the front cab. They were thrilled and chatted to him throughout the journey. My friend said in surprise,

you don't have a steering wheel. No, love, he chuckled. I prefer to stay on the rails. That's quite good, isn't it? I don't actually... Train drivers, what do they have? A stick? Well, they wouldn't need a steering wheel, would they?

Oh, gosh, no. No. No. That would be... That wouldn't be a steering wheel, would they? Oh, gosh, no. No. No. That wouldn't be good. Ow! Sorry, I've just put my finger on the top of a dead staple. Lord. Gosh.

Somebody will have to fill in a form. Debbie takes us to task a little bit, V. It's about the COVID inquiry. Oh. She likes our sense of humour, but your bias, this is her writing, your bias to the left of politics and culture are evident with your unfair jabs and virtue signalling. But I did love Callum MacDonald's balanced report on the COVID inquiry.

What a refreshing approach to journalism these days. Well, Callum at COVID is very good. No, young Callum is definitely going crazy. Excuse me, I'm so sorry. So sorry, yes. There's something a bit weird in this studio, isn't there? Because I don't sneeze any other time during the day, but I come in here and I sneeze every night.

There's something weird. Is it you, Kate? It's impossible, you're allergic to her. I don't think... I mean, do you know, I'll be totally honest with my politics because now we're able to be completely honest. I'm not tied to any one party. I never have been, never will be,

would never, ever join a political party. Don't really understand people who do. I suppose I'd question anyone in authority. And the idea that, I mean, there is every chance that there'll be a Labour government in Britain. I've lived under Labour governments. It's not paradise then either. It's a different sort of experience.

It's very hard to see at the moment how it could possibly be much worse. But that's about as political as I ever get. I don't think, I think we're both certainly socially liberal. And I would say we were questioning rather than tied to a very definite left of centre opinion. I think also what does tend to happen is that whatever it is that's placed in front of you as a journalist, maybe particularly as a radio journalist, you are invited to and it is part of your job to prod. So if you have a Conservative government at the moment, the way that you're going to prod that is by putting a different perspective. So that's going to be a more

left of centre perspective, if you assume that a Conservative government at the moment is centre right. But who knows? Who's our correspondent there again? That was Debbie. Deborah. Debbie. So Debbie, maybe were there to be a change in government, and that's by no means certain, you might find listening to us that we annoy you in exactly the opposite direction, because we start prodding with the centre-right fork. So I suppose the political cutlery is just in the same place to be picked up by the person doing the prodding all the time. Yeah. So I wouldn't, I'd agree with being a liberal. Although the funny thing is, Jane, the longer I'm on the planet, the more I realise that sometimes liberal people are incredibly certain of their liberal opinions.

And sometimes they're wrong. Oh, my word, they can tell you about them, can't they? Of liberal opinions. And sometimes they're wrong. Oh, my word, they can tell you about them, can't they? And you're left at the end of it thinking, how liberal are you? Because you just don't seem to be particularly welcoming to every single perspective if that's what you assume a liberal to be. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, no, I do. Liberals think a lot of people are wrong. And sometimes they're wrong in that. Yeah. Because the truth is, we all know there are great people who do really bad things and vice versa. Yes, ma'am. Indeed. I really, really do enjoy that. So can you keep it up? And a lot of people don't. We're a bit down on tech, aren't we? I mean, there's a lot of muttering about social media and the way it works. And WhatsApp has been

causing a minor sensation in Britain because of our COVID inquiry. And a number of prominent politicians have just not been able to find the WhatsApp messages that they sent during, let's be honest, the really trying days of the COVID pandemic. So I was quite interested in this email from Ailey. Is that how you pronounce it? It's because you've got Scottish roots.

E-I-L-I-D-H. Ailey. Is that how you pronounce it? It's because you've got Scottish roots. E-I-L-I-D-H. Ailey. Ailey, yeah. She says, my significantly younger brother arrived back from Australia yesterday for a month or so. He's been away for over a year, so throughout my entire pregnancy, and I've now got a two-month-old. My parents picked him up from the airport and brought him straight over to meet his baby niece. Both my mum and I noticed how comfortable and normal everything felt. There was no awkwardness or over excitement and I think it's down to my brother sending quick updates and photos of his adventures on the family WhatsApp group throughout the days, weeks and months he's been away. And similarly I've been sharing my

experience of being a first-time mum. It really felt like we hadn't been apart and here was the same comfortable closeness that there was before he left. We didn't need to do a massive catch up and a debrief. It felt calm and natural. I wonder if you or your other listeners have had similar positive experiences with WhatsApp group chats or technology more generally or is there something more valuable that's been lost in that we don't have now this big dramatic reunion? I think that's really interesting. And I certainly when my elder daughter went away doing some travelling,

I was phenomenally grateful for the fact that we could communicate so easily on WhatsApp, that I always knew where she was, how she was. And similarly with the student child, I mean, I regularly get sent pictures of her meals. I know where she is because I'm following you and I know exactly what, no, because I can, I am able to track her up to a point with her permission. And I am immensely reassured by just messages saying goodnight and things like that. I find it really, really soothing and and helpful I think it's such an interesting point to make as well just about the quality of a relationship when you've existed a lot on whatsapp because if you think about all of the the kind of the comedy and

the japes that you have with your kids and with your siblings that were never possible before yeah so quite often you know we'll have on a family WhatsApp a bit of a running gag, usually about how stupid I am about things. But it's a different tone, isn't it? And it's not one that I would have been able to affect in any other way with my parents. When I was my kids' age, there just wasn't a place for that kind of in person.

It is a different thing. My mum is 81 now and she loves an emoji. So sometimes she'll send me a message that is just so fantastically decorated with all of these different symbols and emojis and stuff. And it's so heartwarming because otherwise it's quite a formal message. And my mum is a huge fan of the proper letter. But it's a wonderful different side to her. So I think it's a fantastic point to make.

I think it's lovely that older people can join in with emojis and with family gags and images of whatever their kids have been up to and all that stuff that you can ping off to older folk. I think it's brilliant. But how lovely that she didn't have to go through all the rigmarole of introducing the baby but actually that her brother

kind of felt that he knew the baby. Joined the conversation because it was live. It had been happening anyway. And you could enjoy his trip and I imagine there were nights when you were up with your newborn and you still are up with your newborn because the baby's only two weeks, two months old. And it's also a really lovely record sometimes, isn't it,

of relationships where you can just skim back through, which is why the politicians are so daft not to have kept to all affairs. Honestly. Daft. What are you thinking? What are you thinking? Yes. Let's treasure those moments. Shall we get on to Maria McCurley?

I think we should. You've got a little warning to give first. Yes, well, we have because Maria is well known to many of you, I'm sure, because she is the agony aunt on Graham Norton's very successful Virgin Radio show on Saturday and Sunday mornings. It comes from what he refers to as the top of the tower. It's just upstairs, isn't it, here at Times Tower. Shall we start referring to our programme as nearly the middle of the tower? Near the top of the tower, but just upstairs isn't it here at times should we start referring to our program

as near the middle of the town near the top of the town but not actually at it um yeah that would be good um and uh she is his agony aunt but there's a lot more to it but we should say uh that there are elements of the conversation you're about to hear um that are well not explicit but but cover slightly difficult subjects and if you have been affected by any of the issues in this conversation, you can send an email to feedback at times.radio and we'll make sure that you get the right sources of information and advice. So, Maria McIrlane, author of a memoir called Bumps in the Road. She is a comedian, she's an actress and a cycling buff,

as well as Graham Norton's agony aunt alongside him on his show. I've listened to Maria in that very capacity for many years. And actually, I have asked myself at various points, what qualifies this woman to be an agony aunt? Well, now I've read her memoir, Bumps in the Road, I know exactly how qualified she is. Oh, Jane. No, no, I really mean it because some really wonderful things have happened to you, but also some pretty horrible ones as well. But you don't get to this ripe old age

without the wheel going up and the wheel going down to extend this cycling metaphor. You know, bad stuff happens, good stuff happens. You can't have the good stuff without the other, really. It's sort of a balance of life, perhaps. Do you want to just explain the conceit of the book, the way that you've written it? Yes, I better do that.

Because it is important to do the peddling and stuff. I've just made a cycling metaphor without any mention. Because our listeners are intellectuals and they'll need to know. Yes, the sort of linking mechanism is that I've always loved cycling and always had bicycles ever since I was very young. And each one, I've never known about how you mend them or what make they are or how posh they are. Just about which time of my life they were my little support in every way. And, you know, when they left, you get so many bicycles being taken.

And which bicycles came next? And where was I in life then? And I'm still cycling at the ripe old age of 93. Although, albeit, I have gone over to the dark side and I've got myself an e-bike now. Do you know what I'm very impressed with? You haven't gone down that Lycra road of wanting to do, you know, the stage of the Tour de France or kick yourself out

with all the 16 different Alan Keys that cyclists try to have. You've stopped yourself from doing that. Well, that's a male domain. The middle-aged man in Lycra, the mammals. You see them every weekend around Seven Oaks. Well, you do. You're right.

Yes. They put their bikes on the and then cycle around forever coming home. And their wives are very grateful. Yeah, but they don't always know that. No. But you've written the bicycles into the book so you can tell us more information and impart more wisdom about life.

And I'm grateful to you for that. Thank you. Now, you, Maria, grew up in Bletchley. In Bletchley, Buckinghamshire. Not really famous for anything other than cracking the Enigma code. Yeah. But although I'm from a family background that does have links to Catholicism, I had not known about the Legion of Mary,

which was a group that you were... Did you join voluntarily or were you obliged to become as a good Catholic girl? I think because we lived so close to the church and really I think my mother used it as kind of temporary daycare, correction unit. So any do-gooding part of it was we were signed up for. And the Legion of Mary, we did shopping for people in homes. We babysat for lots of Catholic families with 23 children, all for nothing and for the love of the baby Jesus. It was quite brutal though,

wasn't it? And you recount some escapades which are far from nice to have experienced as a child. I mean, particularly being taken off for a little bit of a trip with Father O'Leary. Yes, when I was very young, went to Brickhill Woods to say goodbye. He was mysteriously spirited away from the parish, but he wanted to say goodbye. So my mum got both of our coats, my sister, who was 18 months older, and he said, no, no, no, just the little one. I do remember him being very nice to me. And, you know, I thought I was hilarious at age eight or nine with my hilarious sense of humour. And it was surprising to have a grown up. I suppose really the word is groom me in that way. But then I don't remember anything from Brickhill Woods

other than him brushing the hair from my face and then returning home to a very agitated mother peering out of the window of our little council house in Bletchley um and he gave me a tensioning note pre-decimalization um for whatever reason and I felt a bit guilty and I'd lost one of my ribbons from my plaits uh but you see my mother who was just so anti us leaving the house and we wore reins and we were clutched onto, to send me off with a priest. But that was the time when people in uniforms and priests and police and teachers and doctors, you just believed them.

You just felt they were beyond reproach. I think what sums up that episode, and it will be familiar, I expect, rather sadly, to lots of people of our generation, that sort of experience, is your mother's reaction to that money and her insistence that you share it. Yes, with my sister who hadn't... Who hadn't gone on the car ride.

It's deeply troubling, isn't it? Yeah, although, you know, look, I don't know what happened. I have no memory of it. I've been to see a therapist to try and be regressed. I went to see Paul McKenna, who was unable to regress. And so, in the end, you just have to think, OK, well, nothing happened, and if it did happen,

it hasn't affected me. That's the end. You know, that my fantasies have all been about priests is another thing. Don't say that, Maria. Don't say it on the radio. Move on quickly for you. Sorry.

You can cut that out. We shouldn't give people the impression that your book is absolutely full of the darkness in life because it's very, very funny. It's quite a rollicking ride along the way and you've got a really lovely turn of phrase. But I was so struck, Maria, by your

relationship with food actually and I wonder whether we could talk just a little bit about that because it's so clear when you tell the reader about how you became you know pretty concerned about your weight and you started starving yourself and you developed anorexia basically you can still recall to this day the amount of weight that you had lost in a certain period of time, which I thought was so telling about the depth of the legacy of that food disorder. No, and I'm so thrilled for a lot of young people today

who we are not body shaming anymore. We are saying you can be who you want to be, you can wear what you want to wear. I mean, my life has been filled with you don't wear that if you've got thicker thighs or don't show your arms especially as you get older don't show your décolletage or don't it's like do what you like and don't let anyone shame you because from our generation certainly i'm a bit older than you guys but uh it was all about just don't be fat and that has affected so many people I know it's still affecting people now in a great degree but

really nobody talked of anorexia in the olden days it was just you did a thing I didn't really know how to cook what to cook with growing up you know sort of mum doing everything. So when I went out into the world and I lived on chocolate and a bit of a sandwich here and there. And then I went on the pill and that worked because nobody wanted to have sex with me because I was too fat because of the pill. So that's when... And slimming pills were readily available.

Well, the doctors were complicit, weren't they? Yes, yes. According to your book. Yes, yes. Well, you know, Iicit, weren't they? Yes, yes. According to your book. Yes, yes. Well, you know, I went through the period where slimming pills were available, certain ones, Tenuate, Dospam. Then they were withdrawn.

They slowly became withdrawn from the market. So I eventually had no choice but to give them up because it was just too hard to get them. I couldn't get a dealer, as you would say. We're going to have to cut so much of this interview. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. I'm kidding. No, let's leave it all in. couldn't get a dealer as you as you would say yeah i'm gonna have to cut so much of this oh sorry sorry sorry sorry no let's leave it all i forget i forget that i'm talking on the radio there is definitely a much wider conversation about food disorders in the current generation

but i think people would still be really interested to hear what it is that you feel about yourself so many decades down the line because Because the stories of people getting better, people learning to live with food disorders, I think are still not terribly current. No. Do you still think about food now? Listen, I think if you've been affected by that, it never goes away. You are still aware of the calorific content,

but what you have to do is try and get over it. But, you know, all of my friends all know the calorific content, but what you have to do is try and get over it. But, you know, all of my friends all know the calorific content of everything because we've all been through that. It's back on menus now, isn't it? And it's back on menus, which is kind of good and kind of bad. But you learn to live with a certain way. And as you get older, you don't care so much, et cetera. Yeah, you've gained a few pounds, but you lost a few pounds.

It doesn't matter. As I said in the book, I think I just lost the same 10 pounds. Lost and gained the same 10 pounds. For what? And if I had to talk to my younger self, I would say, this is futility. This is absolute futility to be doing this to yourself. And why?

You did find love in Cornwall at a hotel. a hotel it is a very striking silver service waiter yes and i'm so impressed that you've read everything well no i like because he's right it's funny the book is funny and that hotel i mean it's a knocking shop maria it was a knocking shop was that the summer of 76 it was it was very very hot and very steamy. Even in Liverpool, it was hot. I remember. And because I'd never left home before, I mean, it was the making of me. I sort of messed up my exams.

I don't know why. I obviously would like to blame the church. I'd like to blame the church for everything. Thank you. But no, it was wonderful. And it was an education. And it was all filled with misfits and people from all over the world.

And it was, I learnt about myself in that time. I suppose it was like my going to university, if you like. I mean, I did go to drama school subsequently, but I was young and impressionable and I was learning on the job, literally. Yes, well, yes. What a lot of lessons you learnt there. Yes, so much i found out about myself

but i remember it so fondly and i hope that comes across because it was a summer season job and i often wonder where all those people are now you could track them down couldn't you if i cared enough i was gonna say there's probably a podcast in that. There might be. I think that's brilliant. Maria's summer season. Yes, there we are. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11.

And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Maria McIrlane is our guest on the podcast today. We're having a lovely chat about her memoir, Bumps in the Road. And I pointed out to Maria that she's got some very strong observations on fame for someone who's actually quite famous herself. No, I'm not. Oh, darling, you are. No, but you are well known and...

Niche sort of area. You know, the lovely thing is I'm not stopped in the street and I have lots of friends who are. And I think there is a price to pay for fame. and I have lots of friends who are and I think there is a price to pay for fame and a lot of people who crave it and chase it are unaware of that. I mean, you know, I think when I was talking to the Saturday Times,

I was talking about Robbie Williams and his documentary. I mean, God, that boy has had such a life but it pains him, But it pains him. The process pains him. He's a self-confessed addict and I think there's an addiction to fame in there as well. You know, it's not a damaging necessarily drug as he's talked about openly in his past,

but it's still, he's addicted to something that he can't control and doesn't really understand. And do you feel that the industry is forgiving of somebody who did what you did, which was to be offered the chance to be really, really famous? You were offered the job alongside Chris Evans on The Big Breakfast. And you basically went, I'm not going to take it because I'm not going to be paid the same as the man.

And also, I just don't really want the hassle. How do people treat that decision? They think it's very foolish. But I had a, you know, a bad thing happen to me when I was about 28 and I think what it did, I lost a partner to Marfan's disease and I think what it did is it sort of robbed me of ambition because real life suddenly had hit and it had all been ha-ha-hee-hee up until that point.

And it robbed me of all ambition I thought what is the point it really the only point is to try and stay alive everything else is irrelevant so in a way I'm quite glad it robbed me of ambition and then I'd met somebody else and I didn't want to mess that up I wanted to have a relationship and I think at the time fee I mean I must have been quite ahead of my time, but I'd done television, and Chris, even though Planet 24, who made The Big Breakfast, wanted Chris Evans. I think Channel 4 wanted me because I'd done some stuff for them. But I think I was offered £180,000 and he was offered £250,000 a year.

And I said, meh, we're doing the same job. We're both getting up at 2.30 in the morning to do a live show for X amount of hours. Why? And I think I got them within 20,000 of his salary, but I said parity is parity. I was way ahead of the game. You were.

No, you were. Well done, sister. Absolutely. I'm not sure, do you want, I mean, I'm going to give you credit for that. Do you give yourself credit for that? For saying that? Yeah, about. I'm not sure, do you want, I mean, I'm going to give you credit for that. Do you give yourself credit for that? For saying that? Yeah, for actually sticking your head above the parapet and saying it.

Yeah, you know, the principle is good, but I think there were other things at play, so it wasn't just that. It was that I didn't, I found happiness again and I didn't want to jeopardise that. And also I did the pilot with Chris, and whilst I love Chris Evans, we all know that he was a different person, you know, in the early 90s. He was quite a handful,

and I knew that he was going to be a handful on the show because just doing the pilot, and I felt that we would have locked horns. Gosh, I can't imagine what she means. No, neither can I. Which body parts are you locking with Graham Norton? With Graham Norton? Yes.

Which parts am I locking? Well, see, Graham, I've known for 30 years and we did a terrible show together called Cardinal Knowledge, which was... It's still much loved, isn't it? Oh, it's still on. That's the maddening thing. I think Graham tried to buy it back

so that it wouldn't be shown on the ironically titled Living or Challenge television. Yes, we did that together. It was Mr and Mrs, but with slightly ruder elements. Yes. And of the people you've met who are grappling with fame, there are some horrors, aren't there? I mean, the late Cilla Black,

she crops up quite regularly in our podcast because I always used to read that she was british airways cabin crew's least popular yeah she was very demanding very demanding having said that um i've seen her in panto and loved it and i want to believe that she had a heart of gold am i just wrong i didn't see the heart of gold i I did talk about this to a journalist where I just feel that, especially this is controversial, perhaps, you know, with the working classes, because they rose up to such elevated heights, they had Rolls Royces with personalised number plates and fur coats and fame was a different thing. Nowadays, fame, I think there's a lot of people that want

to downplay it. They feel embarrassed by it it you get good at your job and that brings you a certain amount of notoriety and fame and then that's difficult because you want to be able to do the normal things that everybody does um without hassle i mean i think i put in the book when graham's father and my father had just died of parkinson's and were at the OXO Tower having dinner and both of us crying, crying, crying about our dads and somebody came over very drunk and said to Graham, it's my wife's birthday, will you sign her bosoms for her? And the easiest thing to do,

the easiest thing to do is just to do it. Is it? Yes, because if you say, look, we're crying here and we're having a private, then you're, oh, Graham Norton, I met him, he was horrible, he didn't do what I wanted him to, you know, that. It's just easier. And as I think Carrie Fisher, the late Carrie Fisher,

said to Graham, this is where you earn your money, not in front of the multi-camera shoot. This is where you earn your money, dealing with the public. And actually, she comes out of your book quite well because she she was a friend of Graham Norton's yes yep and although she might have only wanted to talk about herself in your company at least she wasn't horrendously rude uh is it Harold Pinter who sent the extraordinary note to well you tell the story. Not my anecdote. No, no, no. I feel bad telling this story, but it did make us laugh.

And when somebody has died, you need laughter. When my friend, great friend, John Diamond, who was married to Nigella Lawson, died, there were lots of lovely cards

and presents and flowers. And she had a card from Harold saying, Dear Nigella, John recently went to see my play The Birthday Party, which I happen to know he enjoyed very much. Love, Harold. That was it? That was it.

I just think as a projection of ego, there is no greater. Isn't that fabulous? There is no greater. And it brought us great joy. You know, it wasn't necessarily the kind of comforting words that one expected but it brought us great joy. You know, it wasn't necessarily the kind of comforting words that one expected, but it made us laugh, and I thank him for that.

Yeah, I mean, Harold Pinter's plays, I mean, they're not desperately amusing, are they? Am I just wrong? Is it the birthday party he'd seen? Yes, I think so. Is that one of the jollier Harold Pinters? Do you know? I don't know, and I don't even know if it's true that John had been to see it. No, that's also a possibility, isn't it?

He might just have made it up. What is the strangest query from somebody else's life that you have been asked for your advice on in your role as an agony aunt on radio? Oh, Fee, that's such a difficult question because obviously whilst I'm in the moment when I'm answering them and we care greatly, as Graham convinced the audience last night, we forget them very quickly.

Do they fade? They do. And it would be wrong of me to pretend otherwise. You can't remember a single one. Well, you know, life is really all about, and I look back at 13 years of agony haunting, and I think the main problem with us as as individuals and beings is that we just do not communicate and the harder the problem is the less we want to communicate

because we don't like conflict and so instead of talking to your husband wife girlfriend partner person at work who's troubling you or who has BO they write to us And we rip them apart mercilessly and offer them a crumb of advice and they go away very happy. Come on, what's going on with the world? What do we know? But I do worry when I hear the problems that are sometimes about wills. I think, oh my God, could this be me one day? There's a lot of that.

I mean, where there's a will, there's a family. Oh, yes. Sorry, I went all shouting again then. I got slightly better and I've faded. You got a little bit Pinterest-esque there. I suppose to answer your question, it is things where, you know, the mother slash father who has died

has decided on deathbed or before to cut three of the members of family out of the will and leave the rest to the fourth. I mean, that is throwing a hand grenade into everyone's lives. That's like, if you're checking out, you want to leave a big mess, do that. Yeah, no, it's a terrible thing to contemplate, isn't it? That's just lifetimes of horror ahead.

If you want to be a little bit playful, it's also quite funny, isn't it? I knew, yes! Have you sorted your own will out? Is that all done and dusted? I've got a will but i've no idea where it is that sort of thing terrific okay well thank you clear don't follow your own advice um i'm so impressed that you both read it and i think you're marvelous

uh broadcasters and i wish to listen to you forever yeah she won't remember who we are maria's book is out in time for christ. It is called Bumps in the Road. And it's just a very honest depiction of life in lots of different lanes, fast lane, middle lane, slow lane. And she really goes there with her emotional experiences of, you know, relationships that have failed people who have died. It's worth reading because also she's just very witty, died it's it's worth reading because also she's just very witty isn't she so I found reading the book whenever there had been some very honest dark thoughts on the page she could lift you as the reader out of them with her pretty astute trademark yeah which is lacking in self-pity I would say yeah that's a good way of putting it she really really is, and she's been through a lot,

and I honestly hadn't appreciated quite how much. Why have you got Ron written on your hand? No, I've got book, and that's because Ron is a very dear friend of mine. He also calls me Mum. No, it says book. It's quite clear that it says book. It's like Ron to me.

It's to remind me to give Kate, our exceptionally long-suffering podcast producer, a copy of our book. Oh, my God. Because I've still got a few lingering at home. Have you? Yes. I brought all of mine in for the afternoon tea session.

I'm ever optimistic that one day it'll make a surge up the charts and we'll be in demand again. And certainly, as it happens, I've not been wrong because Kate's asked for a copy only today. She wants to palm it off on her mother at Christmas. Fair enough. So I'm going to bring it in next week. When our guest on Monday will

be Miriam Margulies. Now, we did speak to her earlier. We've got to say that's true. She's currently in Tuscany. Yes, you She's currently in... Tuscany. Yes, you said Italy, she said Tuscany. Tuscany. With quite certain... Yeah, she put you in your place.

I think she probably expected you to call her mum, to be honest. As ever. Mary and Mark, we're quite close now, Jane, are you? Yeah, I like her very much. Has she farted in front of you? Yes, she has. But she's farted in front of me. That means nothing.

Well, let's not have some kind of a daft competition about who knows great stars better. But I'm genuinely interviewing her on stage has been one of the highlights of the last couple of years for me. We had you've done it, too. And we we did a little session that we did a session in Oxford little little to launch her latest book. And she was just terrific. People didn't want to leave the auditorium at the end of the evening because she had been so funny. And I think she's just terrific, Jane. Terrific. She is force of nature is the term usually applied to her can we just end with another um email on squash please let anna the squash fan know she's not alone says liz well there are at least three of you liz so you've got nothing to worry about both my husband and i drink

squash we prefer lime no added sugar my husband like anna would prefer ibina but believes he has to avoid it as he must limit potassium intake whenever possible due to kidney disease. I will even mix things up if I fancy a hot drink and will have a hot lime squash if I need a change from tea. Oh, no, I couldn't go there, Liz. Oh, my goodness. You're on your own there on Christmas Day in Coventry. A hot lime squash. A hot lime squash. Oh, no. Oh, I'm not feeling that. Sorry.

Sorry, I'm not either. Oh, God, it would be bitter. It would be hot and it would all be all wrong. Oh, no, no, no, no. Anyway, have a very, very OK weekend. I'm going to spend most of it rapping and feeling resentful. What about you? I am going to spend most of it visiting my mum.

We're having our little fake christmas a little bit early right so we'll be trucking off to swindon and it will be absolutely superb right well enjoy and happy christmas to your mum and everyone else is going to be around the table who's cooking my mum right okay that's best okay everybody see you Monday. Very mean. Jane and Fiat Times. Dot radio. At ease. We're bringing the shutters down on another episode of the internationally acclaimed podcast Off Air

with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. But don't forget that you can get another two hours of us every Monday to Thursday afternoon here on Times Radio. We start at 3pm and you can listen for free on your smart speaker. Just shout Play Times Radio at it. You can also get us on DAB Radio in the car

or on the Times Radio app whilst you're out and about being extremely busy. And you can follow all our tosh behind the mic and elsewhere on our Instagram account. Just go onto Insta and search for Jane and Fi and give us a follow. So in other words, we're everywhere, aren't we, Jane? Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhonehone screen voiceover on settings so you can

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