Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Have we got big nests? (with Rob Rinder)

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

Today, Jane and Fi get an insight into life in America from fellow listeners - vending machine bullets? No thank you! They also discuss whether West London is fashionable, marathon boasting and dentist's dentists. Also, Fi is joined by Rob Rinder, barrister and television host, on his second novel 'The Suspect'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'Missing, Presumed' is by Susie Steiner.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Hannah Quinn Podcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Fiona Bruce and fibroids. That's quite a list, isn't it? Fibroids. And also Fitbit I can swim with. Obviously, those are things that I've searched. What ever happened to fibroids? She had a career in the media. Now, our guest is Rob Rinder.

And Rob is, well, was he actually a judge? He's a barrister. Right, OK. So he's a practising barrister and he then decided to put that to use on the television as Judge Rinder, where he did the, you know, I've got a gavel and people will come before me and I will decide their fate.

And from then, his rather stellar entertainment career took off. So just doing a bit of research on him this morning, I mean, the bloke is just extraordinary. His ability to just bounce from genre to genre, Jane, is very admirable. And I think a lot of people will have watched him and Ryland do their grand tour. I haven't. It was a travelogue thing. Back on the Mothership channel. Two fellas

do a travel show together. That's original, isn't it? Around Europe. Oh my goodness. Did they go to Italy by any chance? Well, they did. But I think what really touched people's hearts is it turned into a bit of a kind of debrief between the two of them about broken relationships in midlife. So I know that people really enjoyed that. But Rob has written two, I mean, presumably this will be a very successful novel. The first one, you know, Sunday Times number one bestseller. They are very much based in the courtroom.

So we'll talk about his novel, which is called The Suspect. The first one was called The Trial. I suspect there are more to come well i suspect the witness yeah the judge the judge yeah um judge john deed was always my favorite judge on the telly oh i like judge judy i like judge john because he disobeyed all the rules and would often just leap over uh leap over the what is it where does the judge sit? On the bench. Well, that's a magistrate. I think the judge has a bench. I think the judge sits on like a...

Actually, what is the name of the... Anyway, Judge John Deed had no, interestingly, very little regard for the law and would involve himself in sometimes solving the case and all sorts of things. It was very odd. Who played Judge John? I can't remember. I can't remember. Miss Martin Shawin shaw anyway someone will know and i've mentioned it before

because i don't think it was terribly accurate as a show i've read well i think it's jane you've delved into fiction and uh rob was dealing in the world of fact yeah well yes but not in the suspect and i have read the very beginning of it and and there's a terrible incident on morning television. Well, I'm going to ask him about that because the book opens with the fatal demise of the incredibly sprightly, attractive and very well-dressed woman who is helming Wake Up Britain, as his GMB is called, with the exclamation mark at the end.

Wake up Britain! And obviously that does bring to mind your your good friend and my good friend my tv heroine susanna reed who's still there helming she is helming brilliantly as well uh so yeah loads to talk to rob about he's always a really fascinating um interviewee and last time he came on the program which was actually when you were away and i was doing it with louise minchin and louise and him had done these weird ultramarathons together as well. So where he finds time, I don't know. The point is,

we don't talk about the ultramarathons we do together. We just keep it to ourselves. Keep it on the down low. Not everyone has to talk about them. It is something that some people really bang on about. Also, Rob has been on Strictly and it's going to be our ambition really for the next five years to interview someone who's not been on Strictly and it's going to be our ambition, really, for the next five years to interview someone

who's not been on Strictly. He's never been offered it, has got no interest in it, has never touched it with a barge pole. Because next week, Carol Kirkwood's off the programme. Being on Strictly. She's done Strictly. But Carol, apart from Jim Dale, who is the weatherman we like to fire up

when weather conditions become a little challenging, Carol Kirkwood has got to be Britain's leading weather individual. Yeah, she delivers it with aplomb. I like Carol's weather. I like Carol's weather better than Thomas's weather. Well, he's a big noise, isn't he? Old Shafanakas. Yes, he is.

I think the ladies like him, don't they? No, I think both, ladies and gentlemen like the Thomas Schaffanacker. I think gentlemen do like him very much. He's a very talented artist. Yeah, well that's good to know. Is he? Yeah, he is. Honestly, he's astonishing. He does these amazing pictures that look like

photographs. They are so brilliant. Look it up if you get a spare moment. Honestly. I'll put that on the list. I struggle because I can't spell Schaffernacker. Yeah. Well, I think he's one of those... Google's fascinating, isn't it? There are some people who you just start typing

the first three letters in their name and Google tells you. And also, Google's quite cruel because if you type... Should I try this now? Oh, no, don't. Let's do it. No, come on, let's do it. So if you type in Jane, let's see the first Jane that comes up. On my phone, actually, it probably will be. It's Seymour.

Is it Jane Seymour? Yeah, it will be. Okay. Let's just try J-A-N-E. Oh, well, weirdly, I go to Jane Beale and then to Yannick Sinner and then Jeanette Manrara. Okay.

Isn't that, that's really weird. Jane MacDonald is creeping up there. God, I'm sorry, you're not even in the top page. No, well, I really won't be. Not when Jane MacDonald's in the Jane-dom. You must be joking. Now, where is she travelling to at the moment? Because I saw her show advertised.

I think it was Jane MacDonald's Golden Cruise or something. Oh, I hope so. I love seeing Jane MacDonald on a boat. Obviously, if you put in FI, I have to do this, listeners, because Jane wouldn't be doing it. The first thing it comes up with is the Fig Leaves Halter swimsuit. Well, I could do with one.

Is it a well-supporting one piece? Fiona Bruce and fibroids. That's quite a list, isn't it? Fibroids. And also Fitbit I can swim with. Obviously, those are things that I've searched. It never happened to fibroids that's quite a list isn't it fibroids and also Fitbit I can swim with obviously those are things that I've searched what ever happened to fibroids she had a career in the media just because we've got a screen in front of us

that shows images of leading political figures the world over and Joe Biden has just floated across the screen and today we're speaking on the day after he was diagnosed with Covid and I just wonder whether something might have happened in the world of biden by the time perhaps by the time the weekend is over and i don't mean that he's something terrible has happened to him but i

wonder whether he might have just have decided to to quit the race what do you think well he has recently said hasn't he that if doctors said you are not fit for this job, then he would actually have to think about it. I mean, it just, as we've said before, it boggles the mind that you've got to the place where you're being told this on a daily basis and you're still saying, I've got a kind of divine right to stay in my job. Although the divine right is being, it's being brought into many conversations

in American politics at the moment, isn't it? You know, that God changed the direction of a bullet and all kinds of things that if you're more agnostic, I think just sound mad. So yes, who knows what will happen with Joe Biden. But I mean, as with anybody who's over the age of 80, when they get COVID, it's a different kettle of fish. Yeah, and isn't it interesting that COVID disappears from the headlines?

We don't talk about it. And then all of a sudden you realise, oh, God, here's another sharp reminder. It hasn't gone away. It has never gone away. But I'm amazed that he wasn't vaccinated. He was. Oh, OK. Yeah, he's had every booster they've made that clear right and still still he's got well i mean i you know i i don't wish him ill but i wish him a peaceful

retirement let's just bring in jackie and chandler's forward because we have got some interesting emails by the way about donald trump thank you for those particularly from the people in the states but uh jackie just says i'm sure plenty of others have already written to point out that dungeness is nowhere near south worldold. It's on the Kent coast between Hastings, which is in East Sussex, and Folkestone. Oh, yes, so I meant to correct that too. So it's Dunwich that you're thinking of and that I'm agreeing with you on.

Well, you may have been thinking of Orford Ness. No, I was thinking of Dunwich because it starts with a Dun. Now, Dunwich, that's interesting, because wasn't that the ancient sunken capital of England? Well, I mean, bearing in mind that you and i couldn't pick up on exactly where dungeness was i'm going to hesitate before confirming any geographical or historical fact in this podcast also says jackie is in chandler's ford i hope i haven't already mentioned that also there are foghorns on land in lighthouses and there's a lighthouse

at dungeness although it's no longer in use well there's all the information there from Jackie thank you thank you and it's Chandler's Ford and it's not Southampton no no never call it Southampton don't you don't call it Eastleigh either it is actually quite near Southampton I just want to mention just a couple more emails that we've had about the interview with Tiggy Walker, just because it reflects our email inbox, because she touched an awful lot of hearts by speaking so honestly about caring for Johnny. And it's a difficult one, isn't it? Because we were very much talking to Tiggy herself as a carer, but obviously an awful lot of people want to talk about Johnny.

And we're just very, very sad to hear that he is so unwell at the moment. So just this one from Chris. Powerful and moving interview. Listening to Tiggy Walker discuss her life caring for radio, sorry, radio legend and husband Johnny. One of the biggest stars of early Radio 1 and also on his return in the 80s. Always a rock and roll rebel.

I used to see his motorbike parked at the top of Regent Street opposite the Beeb, and it makes it even more heartbreaking to learn of his current existence and condition, and the loving caring that Tiggy does for him. I'm dreading the day when we might hear The Inevitable. And of course, Chris, you speak for absolutely all of us. Johnny is still managing to do his 70s music programme on Radio 2. So Chris, I think you are probably already still listening to that. But for other people, you might think that he has stopped broadcasting completely. And I do think that Johnny's just one

of those broadcasters, broadcasters as well, if you know what I mean. It's a funny phrase that though, isn't it? Well, it is, but it's because he really loves the industry and is just incredibly good at it. Are they dentist dentists? Well, I know what you mean. But isn't it because when you're broadcasting, you're also a listener? You're always also a listener.

Yeah, but it's recognising someone who's just been a powerhouse in the industry brilliant at the craft and it is a craft, the very best and he's one of them you're absolutely right this listener wants to be described as desperately worried in California I'm British but I've lived in the States since 1986

I was listening to your musings about Donald Trump honestly you have no idea how bad things are over here. And indeed, in my view, how much worse they're going to get. I live in the blue stroke Democrat state of California, and I am thus shielded from some of the craziness. Most of my friends agree with me that the rise of Trump and the unwavering support for him among his followers is so astonishingly cult-like, it is scary. There's an overwhelming aura of fear and gloom here

about what's going to happen to our country. Women's rights, gay rights, NATO, protections for wildlife and the environment, all gone for a burden. I could go on, but I won't. I do get Sky News here, and I watched the first speech by Keir Starmer outside Number 10, where he began by

thanking Rishi Sunak. It might not sound all that remarkable but it did strike me as such a contrast to our outgoing president who refused to accept the result of the 2020 election and then incited a mob to try and prevent it from being certified. Who, if he does lose in 2024, will refuse to accept the result again? I think it could be violent and ugly one way or another. I was moved to tears of utter pride about how bloody civilised it all is in the House of Commons. In the UK, you get your dogs at polling stations. Over here in November, we're going to have masked MAGA men

with AR-15 automatic weapons at polling stations, intimidating voters. I really do fear for this country uh well so to that listener um and i by the way i don't know would it be right that there would be make america great again supporters with automatic weapons at polling stations intimidate i don't know well it's possible i guess in open carry states as they're called i wouldn't have thought it's a million miles away from the truth God it's awful

Desperately Worried says I have spent the last couple of days in a stupor drinking too much gin and googling what it would take for me to get back to the UK well I hope it doesn't come to that because I'm sure there's a really good reason why you've made your life in the States since the 1980s but I don't suppose that person

is on their own there but gosh i mean grim time this this isn't a perfect country isn't now never has been uh but at the moment i'd rather be here i would agree with you uh this one comes from share who's one of our regular listeners and a very good morning stroke afternoon stroke, stroke evening to you, Cher, who sent us the most alarming picture that I think has ever come into our email inbox. I thought both of you would find this interesting, possibly scary. You're right, Cher. It's a vending machine. You can buy bullets from Oklahoma, Alabama, and, of course, Texas, my birth state.

Usually optimistic is how Cher signs herself off. But, I mean, it's incredible. So the picture is of a man standing in front of this vending machine and you can choose, just as you would be choosing, a Snickers bar or an Aero bar or perhaps one of those strange kind of health bars that no one goes for in a vending machine. In this one, you can choose shotgun rounds,

something else rounds. I'm sorry, I can't read the other one underneath. And the only four things that you have to go through in order for the vending machine to chuck out your bullets, it says number one, tap, number two, choose, number three, verify ID, number four, purchase. And there you go. You get your bullets. I mean, that's mind-boggling, Jane., purchase. And there you go. You get your bullets.

I mean, that's mind-boggling, Jane. That's mind-boggling. To us, it's, yeah, well... Imagine if you were just going about your daily shop in a supermarket and you walked past the vending machines at the end. Oh, yeah, I'm running low on bullets. So we don't really understand it, and we do find it terrifying, and I just...

Oh, I don't even know what to say, Jane. I mean, let's not pre-empt the decision of the American democratic process, but I would not want to live there. No. And just a word for people who perhaps are not regular listeners to Times Radio. We have sent our very own John Pienaar to Milwaukee, and he's doing a brilliant job covering the Republican convention.

So if you've never listened, maybe it would be a good time to start. Maybe you could tune in to John. He's on between four o'clock and seven on Times Radio. And I'm sure he'll be back covering the Democrats as well. Just also, there's a much less serious but still interesting situation going on in canada uh allison says we're facing a blistering summer we're on our fourth heat warning that's the thing about canada it's very cold and then very very very hot isn't it um combined with the tail end of hurricane beryl but we can't cool down with the gnt or a white claw cooler as our liquor stores are all

closed because employees have gone on strike. It's been about three weeks now and our Premier, a man called Doug Ford, doesn't seem to be backing down on his plan to open up the market, giving some convenience stores licences to sell booze. Here we have two types of stores for adult beverages, the beer store, they sell beer, and the LCBO, the Liquor Control Board of Ontario, which sells wine, spirits, can coolers and cider. It took a wee bit of getting used to when me and my family moved here over 10 years ago that you can't just whip to the corner shop and pick up a bottle of wine. Thrill when we come to the UK and see wines, beers and spirits willy-nilly in Tesco still amuses me. Jaffa cakes and Pimms in the same shopping cart is a total joy. Avidly listening, is that a good sign-off?

Alison, that is a good sign-off. Thank you, Alison. And what a weird situation in Ontario. But there are loads of states and countries that do their liquor that way. So you can't buy liquor, any form of alcohol, anywhere in Iceland. You have to go to a registered government-operated liquor shop and they're only open on every third Wednesday in the month between 3.30 and 5.30 and it's a very deliberate decision taken and I think it's the same in Finland.

To stop heavy drinking. Yes, to stop heavy drinking. And in America you can only buy light beers in corner shops and bodegas. You have to go to a proper wine store to go and buy your wine. But you can get bullets out of them. You can get bullets from a vending machine. Work that one out. We have a very very kind of open

almost continental attitude to our continent take it too far every time Minnie's in pen I like Minnie

because she says dear Fee and Jane please Jane treat yourself to some fresh numbers on your bins you deserve it and I fear for Fee's sanity if she has to hear

much more on the topic Minnie I had run out of questions and for me that's rare but I didn't have any more i was annoyed by that number even as i left the house today i'm very happy to come around and change it next time i'm in west london which will probably be about 2034 okay never go there i'll hold you to people are so rude about west london it's never been fashionable oh no rude about West London. It's never been fashionable. Oh, no. Oh, don't be absolutely ridiculous. It's never been fashionable.

The whole of Notting Hill. The whole of Notting Hill. It's had movies made about it. I don't bloody live there. But if you spit with a fine wind behind you, you're in Notting Hill. You're about five minutes away from it. I'm not taking this.

On a bus. I am not taking this. Travelling at high speed, which obviously it can't. You live in West London. What's your postcode? I'm not prepared to say. No, but what does it start with?

What? W. God! I tell you what, I was out as a, I think like a lot of people of my age, my social life consists almost entirely of leaving dudes. It does seem to, Jane. I was at a great BBC one last night

and it was lovely actually, lovely to see people. But we were out in London's terribly fashionable Borough Market and the streets were thronged. Well, that happens, Jane. But it's Wednesday night. Oh, you try a Thursday. I'm never going out round here on a Thursday. You cannot get a seat anywhere in London's fashionable places on a Thursday night.

I don't understand it. Yeah. Really don't. I mean, everyone seemed to be having a great time. Are you feeling a little bit under the weather today? Do you know, I'm not actually. A little, leaving dues are, I mean, people will be able to understand this, you do have lovely conversations with people.

I met a young, well, to me, a young man last night who I'd loved. He was 45, to my absolute horror. He had started working with me and my lovely colleague at the time, Peter love he's he was 45 to my absolute horror he had started working with me and my lovely colleague at the time peter allen and he was our most i mean i don't mean this in any way derogatory way but he was he was at a lower level and he was basically printing scripts that was what he used to do he's now working for the new york times well it was so lovely to chat to him our program director was the ap on the last full-time programme

I did on Five Live. He's the one who's given us our job here. It does make you think. It does. Time marches on. So Rob Rinder is a man of so many talents, a barrister and novelist, strictly contestant maker of documentaries,

Holocaust educator and star of a recent travelogue where he and Ryland retrace the path of the European Grand Tour and spruce it up with a bit of modern glamour, thoughts about midlife relationships and a little bit of innuendo along the way. Rob was into Times Towers though to discuss his second novel which is called The Suspect. It follows on from The Trial, both of which feature his legal protagonist Adam. I started by asking Rob more about his hero. Adam Green, who's the central protagonist character in my second novel, and you don't need to have read the first one.

The second one's called The Suspect. And he's a barrister who is a bit of a, well, a kind of imposter syndrome person. What I mean by that is he goes to all the posh universities, but grows up in a working class bit of southgate a nice jewish boy finds himself able to jump through the academic hoops has a sense of justice and ends up in the rarefied velveted dream pipe world of the bar and is at the epicenter of the biggest case of well at that moment of its of the biggest case of, well, at that moment, of the time. And so that's the book. And it's a little, to say the least, loosely based on me.

And at the heart of it is a whodunit, but there are also subplots which, you know, unpick and reveal, lift the lid, let's say, on what life in chambers certainly was like when I was there. And also some of the challenging issues around injustice especially when it comes to class. Do you find it easy to dredge up the detail from your own experience? Does the world of the chambers and the courts still seem very fresh to you? Well I'm still a member of chambers and I obviously follow the profession and do what I can to keep my hand in as much as possible. So I'm not necessarily working purely from memory,

but it's interesting, there are two bits to it. When it comes to the cases, especially the cases which are loosely based on real cases I've done, so in the trial, there's a subplot, the Kavanagh case, and in this one, the Sorokin case, which are, as I say, rooted in cases where I was defence counsel. And those cases really relate to what happens when you are in a situation where you find that you're defending somebody, they are guilty, discovered to be guilty.

In the second case, a person admits having committed the offense but is running a case of duress as a young man who finds himself at the center of gang violence he's in possession of firearms he can't get witness protection because he's a defense witness he's a defendant not a prosecution witness and what happens in those circumstances, should he speak or not, he's risking 12 years in prison. And the consequences that ensue when he decided to do the courageous thing and tell the truth and was eventually acquitted. That is loosely based on a real case I did. Now those details, I find relatively easy to remember, hard and sometimes quite painful to relive. The problem is when you're a lawyer

writing, what you tend to do is overwrite. Because the details matter, you want to be able to teach and share and you can't just say I put it to you that five years ago, you've got a previous conviction for whatever it is, you have to make the legal application and what I've discovered when you're writing also a fun whodunit, you want to keep people gripped. You know, you've got to be quite careful about putting in too much information because people will disappear into a coma. Yeah.

When you stepped out to become a TV judge originally, what was the motivation for doing that? Was there any little part of you that thought, actually, the way that our justice system works is very closed, it can be very removed from reality you know we need to be more kind of in touch with the normal the person that's a very um kind and high-minded projection of how judge rinder emerged um i'm sure you have people on here well just say well thank you for asking that question that's exactly what happened i was

sort of overwhelmed with an urge to share the law with the broader public. Well, that wasn't it at all. Was it the money? It wasn't the money. Oh, God, no, not back then. It was a random series of events. You know, I was prosecuting a very important case

and advising various foreign governments. But before that, I'd written a script, Crown Court. Do you remember that? Oh, I do remember Crown Court. No, I'm probably older than you, Rob. No, I don't think so. We've both stumbled on some happy lighting perhaps. But, I mean, the point is that it was about really,

because I was doing this challenging case and, you know, one is always more than one thing. I certainly am. I wanted to help keep some of my out of work actors friends busy for a bit. So I wrote this script, came back to defend in a case in Croydon, and went to flog this idea to this woman who turned out to be at ITV daytime. And I think I can't remember, but she sort of gave me her aggressively undivided indifference. I'm not sure whether she said it was the worst thing she'd ever read, but it was right up there. And she asked me, I thought she was very amusing. I read a book of hers she'd

written. And I thought, well, she said, in fact, there's a guy in Manchester called Tom who's interested in doing a court show. And because they were all on television, you work in media, I'm used to law where, you know, there's good, bad, right or wrong, and you tell your client what matters. And that's that television. And the media the media is just well it's just full of people who just talk and say things i can't trust a word anybody said went and took this case very challenging case where i'm advising i was advising the government of jersey at the time and then this thing was going on and i arrived um into a court in manchester and there it was judge rinder with my name on. This is before social media really and all of that stuff. Case number one, a woman suing her wedding photographer.

And the rest is TV history. The rest is TV history. And it seemed to chime with, well, because daytime is ritual, with people's kind of thirst to understand more about the law. And just to be clear, I really cared about that. I'm glad that you mentioned, you know, that you have interests in many things because there is so much to talk to you about. Can we do the headline stuff about Strictly, please, if that's okay?

So you've been a participant on the glitter ball, the slightly tarnished glitter ball now, strictly. Do you think that what is happening to the programme at the moment is something that the programme will recover from? Well, I mean, it certainly seems like it's in the crosshairs at the moment. And, you know, I've got to be very careful because it's a subject of an ongoing investigation. And I'm always mindful about that. We have to be very careful about coming to courts of public opinion conclusions when we know so little about the detail.

And that's especially important when it comes to people who are making courageous choices perhaps to come forward and also applying my mind to the fairness of those who have been accused. It's very, very important that we think about court trials and the current, well, difficult conversation that's happening around Strictly. All I can talk about is my own experience, because that's, you know, all I know of. And in 2016, I had a blooming great old time. You know, it was two years since I was, you know, dealing with difficult cases

where the consequences for my clients were severe and extreme, to say the least. And they put a camera in front of me and said, how does it feel to go out in front of 10 million people? I said, well, nobody blooming died. I'm living the dream. But I did learn a lot. Firstly, in our community that I did strictly, and everybody genuinely liked each other. I know it looks disingenuous in front of the camera,

but we were very lucky, you know, as Ed Balls and I'm still very good friends with Will Young and Louise Redknapp, Greg Rutherford, I'm godfather to one of his kids. We really just genuinely bonded. And that being said, and I've written about this and I do think it's worth reflecting on, and perhaps it's changed to a degree,

but I became very aware. It was a big perhaps it's changed to a degree but um I became very aware it was a big epiphany moment a silly one perhaps thinking about it because it would be so patently obvious to my goddaughters and all the women in my family but it was a day when I was in a car with Laura Whitmore and we were going from the studio up to It Takes Two there I am you know wearing my pajama bottoms to practice in, you know, going on to go, oh, I'm so delighted. My whole life,

all I've ever wanted to do is get to Blackpool. You know, all of that. Oh, it's just wonderful to win. And, you know, as far as I could gather, because I wasn't on social media then, and people were just delighted by,

oh, he's trying his best. Nobody commented on what I was wearing. Nobody speculated on whether or not I might be having an illicit affair with Oksana. I mean, the only person that would be thrilled about that would be my grandma. But obviously to the public, it would be surprising to say the very least. But there I was in a car listening to Laura. And she was having a totally different experience, right? Because everything she wore was being evaluated.

The level of speculation, if you're a woman, having a totally different experience, right? Because everything she wore was being evaluated. The level of speculation if you're a woman about perhaps you're having an affair with your partner, how women are described and sexualized in that context. And that's something which I had to understand that it is undoubtedly the case that in that world, you know, men and women often have a different, well, have a different time perhaps on the programme. And do you think that extends to women literally being more vulnerable

and that vulnerability not being taken seriously? Well, again, you know, I have to be careful because there's an ongoing investigation, but I will tell you that during my time, there always seemed to be someone present, you know, there, that were filming us the whole time. And I was listening to Richard Coles earlier. It's a very challenging situation because, you know,

it's peculiarly or has become peculiarly competitive. And it wasn't really in the year that I did it. It's now nearly a decade ago. You know, it was a place that you would go on. And of course, some of the professional dancers would want to win. But, you know, there's always people that come on it who have got previous experience. And I remember going to the summer school place where you meet each other. And I thought, bloomin' heck, it's like a scene from fame.

I think Greg Rutherford signed up for me and said, we haven't got a chance here, we'd better get out. And you would watch every week as the beautiful and wonderful and very kind Danny Mac would be sort of dancing better than the professionals and so on and so forth. But, you know... It still had room for flawed people. Well, everybody's flawed, it's not that.

No, I suppose flawed dancing. No, it didn't matter. What I'm saying is at the beginning of the show, the spirit and the heart of it was about, and I think it's still the case, but above all else, it was about, you're not allowed to use this word nowadays on telly or radio, but it's true,

about journey, about taking somebody from being an amateur who's a bit rubbish and seeing how they got better. And, you know know i do wonder as the spotlight um has got brighter and especially with the presence and prevalence of social media whether you know the challenges and stresses about uh winning have become slightly more important and who knows you know perhaps there's never an excuse but that perhaps when in a in a competitive environment where a lot of the ballroom teachers are competitive people themselves,

the extent to which that interferes with the sort of emotional complexion of the space, who knows? You've also been awarded an MBE for your services to Holocaust education. And one of the things that I've enjoyed watching you most on television was the documentary kind of partnership program that you made about going back to Israel, which was also with a Palestinian who was... Sarah Agar. Yeah, who was visiting her homeland.

What do you think now? You see that sense of exasperation. I'm very proud of that program and I'm really proud of that programme, and I'm really glad that you referenced it. And it's still available on iPlayer. It's called Holy Land, Our Untold Stories. You know, I don't believe, I'm not high-minded enough or arrogant enough to believe that television,

or even writing, has the power to change people's minds, especially when it comes to that part of the world but the mission of the program was to enable people to walk away listen to the stories really listen here which is a different impulse the origin story of the creation of the state of Israel in 48 and the impact of that on Palestinian families too. The first time the Nakba, the catastrophe was really explained through the voice of somebody who had experienced it. So and placed those stories alongside one another. And what I wanted and hoped for was that those or anybody watching it would go away and perhaps think that the situation was nuanced. I can't remember what

filmmaker it was who said that tyranny is a deliberate removal of nuance. But I think we now live at a time when more than ever, people are looking for easy and straightforward, straightforward, excuse me, moral answers, good versus bad, etc etc and that part of the world is infinitely too complex to come at it like that well i think the program achieved exactly that i think it was absolutely brilliant and i also think it would be incredibly difficult to watch now because so much has changed can i ask you about your experience in London as a Jewish man? Have you felt ill at ease? Have you felt frightened? Have you felt antagonised? You know, I haven't personally.

But the curious thing is the first time in my lifetime, you know, I grew up in a racially and ethnically and class blended community. And being Jewish was a rather lovely cultural aspect of my life. And despite being the grandson of a Holocaust survivor, so, you know, deeply aware of antisemitism in the most extreme form imaginable. I never felt ever existentially threatened or different. It was a celebratory aspect of my identity, never a fearful one. But the truth is that I now have people I know and love

who are fearful of walking in the streets with a star of David Owen, who, when they want to perhaps discuss this issue in a way that's nuanced, and I want to be very clear about this, I do not mean defending, let's say, the actions of the Netanyahu government, but want to be able to communicate and share why Israel as a state is sacred to Jewish people, 250,000 of us in a nation of in excess of 60 million.

You know, that when they want to perhaps make the case for why it should exist and be able to enter those complex and challenging conversations, watching the horror ensue, that they feel very fearful of doing that. They feel excluded and dehumanized from that conversation. That's the first time that I've ever experienced that, being a Jew in this country. It's the first time that, you know, you hear, I've been at dinner parties or events where things that are said, both on the left and the right but i have to say it's been more present for reasons which i suppose are just basically social where i'm more likely to hang out on the left casually loosely that are deeply disturbing jews being described

as they the influence they have on the media, the disproportionate power they have over the professions and so on and so forth. You can hear that now in so-called polite company. And you shut your eyes and you imagine. You don't have to shut them very tightly. And imagine that's the starting point for all of the horrors that ensue. You know, I referred to, you know, the MBE and Holocaust education.

And the thing that I care about a lot, mostly, isn't focusing on all of the horrors, what happened to, you know, my family underneath that dark earth in Trablinca. You know, what matters more than anything is not going to visit Auschwitz, so you should, and to go there is to be forever changed. But that's the end of the story.

It's the beginning that matters. This is the most advanced Western liberal democracy of its time, the absolute apotheosis of Western civilization, Germany. And what did you need? Well, you need people to be feel aggrieved by a treaty, you know, catastrophic economic events, and the right wrong person in the right place at the wrong time to identify others. And then this conversation starts, well, you know, they, the they, they are very powerful, you know, disproportionate impact, all the things that you've begun to creep into, like a malignant force branded on the tongue in conversations that exist now in ways and spaces that would have been intolerable when I was young. tolerable when i was young that's the quiet starting point for the slow dark slippery slide into what can be depravity and i'm very very worried about that well those are beautiful words

and very very well said and uh there is no way of making a gear change out of that into something that's profound that's not going to feel there is you know i just we can be we can be positive about it because you know i go into schools and people tell me i can't bear it they tell me you know um certain schools certain religious schools won't come and learn about the holocaust it's just not true you know i work so the holocaust my family and me it's now been turned into a program led by dr nick w Weatherall and the Faculty of Education at UCL. And it's incredible. I have young communities of young learners from Islamic schools

who have no dissonance between proudly wearing their Free Palestine badges and learning about the Holocaust. And also having, which is the fundamental mission, about understanding that the power to stop hate stops with them and that their language matters. You know, and I see it every day. So I'm not sure that we need to be pessimistic about it. What we need to do is speak young people and all of us up

and above all else, to check ourselves. What I mean by that is you know you can't let things slide anymore and we tend to sort of maya angela is one of my heroes you can't practice any of the virtues consistently without courage well i think what that means nowadays is when you hear stuff be it islamophobia or anti-jewish racism, if you're not sure, it's worth calling it out. As you start thinking of things and reading, you know, the types of dark inferences I was referring to before, just sort of being mindful of how that's affecting your view of the world

and remembering that the power to stop hate really does start and end with you. Yeah. And I suppose, can we make this leap then to you and Ryland? Definitely. And Grantur, which you have captured so beautifully on another BBC travelogue. But do you know what? I mean, you know this, don't you,

that so many people really, really enjoyed watching you and Ryland so much together and you've talked about relationship breakups and this incredible friendship has developed between you. People want to see this lovely, happy ending, and I know that you're asked a lot at the moment. You might want to put that in there too. No, I'm going to leave it exactly how it is, Rob. Exactly how it is.

And they want to know whether or not, you know, you're going to disappear off into the sunset together. But that says something, doesn't it, about our attitude to homosexuality that, you know, for years, for years, that kind of partnership where it was a man and a woman on TV,

you know, the question would always be, are they at it? Well, I love that. And I think we've come a long way where we can go. I hope these two get together. I think that's wonderful. And, you know, across the kind of cultural and political spectrum, across sort of audiences, you know, the fact that we're both gay is kind of incidental to whether or not we might love each other.

So I think that is very sweet and, you know, demonstrates what I was talking about before. And for all the horrors of the world and the negativity, often those people who shout the loudest, of course, are given the greatest amplification. Most people are kind of really nice. I mean, overwhelmingly so. Yeah, and they want love to prevail.

Precisely. In this case, it has prevailed. It's just platonic love. I mean, Ryland says we're, well, we're basically married. We row all the time and don't have sex. Rob Rinder and his novel is called The Suspect the whole country saw it happen but who did it? that is the tease on the front cover

always lovely to hear from Rob he really is, he's a bloke with a very very very big brain and I wonder what he will turn his attention to next well hopefully, he's made some excellent documentaries and I hope he'll do more of those, I really do And I wonder what he will turn his attention to next. Well, hopefully he's made some excellent documentaries. And I hope he'll do more of those. I really do. Yeah.

Now we've got some big guests next week. Big nests guest week. We've got big nests. We've got big nests. I have actually. Big nests guest week, including Katie Price, who's written a book. It's not the first one she's written.

I have got the task of reading it and um i there are there's a lot to admire about her there's also a lot that's controversial about her um i because we've talked a bit about caring this week because of the interview tiggy walker i think the documentary katie price made about her son harvey Harvey was both informative and you know they clearly have an extraordinarily close relationship and I know she's a I'm going to say a complex figure and does occasionally irritate the life out of some people but wow could I could I do what she does with Harvey I'm not sure. Yeah I think it's a very good point to make. I also think she is one of those people who sums up something that has happened over the last 20 years about celebrity

and about attention and about living your life in the public gaze. Way out there. Way out there. But there's a question to be asked, isn't there, now, which is being asked more often now about the people who surround those celebrities and the and live off them and live off them and so cannot offer them the best advice for them and when casey price has hit rock bottom

which she has done several times you think well that's not entirely on her there are loads of people who would have spotted the warning signs before that massive descent which has taken down quite a few people around her as well and you just think well where were you where were you to do the gentle kind wise tap on the shoulder to go this isn't quite right actually you know do you want to step back quieten down hide away how can i help but you absolutely know that they said right what will it take to get you out there again yeah and she got out there again somehow and they may well have benefited from that anyway um lots to talk about

we have to go have a really decent couple of days and we'd love to hear from you jane and fee at times.radio. Goodbye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fie. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive

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