Off Air... with Jane and Fi - He was a great lover with ulcerated legs!

Episode Date: January 21, 2025

Why isn't it called the Isle of Woman? What's all the fuss about Bicester Village? And why is catching a celebrity farting so thrilling? All the big questions are pondered in this episode... Plus, former nurse turned writer Christie Watson discusses her latest book, 'No Filter', which she co-wrote with her daughter, Rowan Egberongbe. Recommendations in this episode (all TV): The Man on the Inside, Somebody Somewhere, Unforgotten, The White Lotus, The Night Manager, The Night Agent, State of Play, The West Wing The next book club pick has been announced! 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' is by Hilary Mantel.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's just as absurd as me saying I want East West Kentington to be renamed Jane Garveyland. What about the Isle of Woman? Yeah, the Isle of Man. Exactly. In fact, why are we the United Kingdom? Why aren't we the United Queendom? This episode of Off Air is sponsored by Wild Frontiers Travel. Sophie, tell me, where's on your travel bucket list? Well, I would really like to go to much emptier places because I live in the heart of a beating city so I think Mongolia.

Well with Wild Frontiers Travel you'll see more with those who know the way. Want to go off the beaten track and away from all the tourist crowds? You got it. From wine tastings in Georgia to epic journeys along the Silk Road, Wild Frontiers provide unforgettable experiences in some of the most incredible places on earth. What's more, with everything taken care of by the experts, you'll have the freedom to take it all in and the freedom to never stop seeking. So whether you want to travel solo or on one of their small group tours or with family or friends on a private tailor-made trip, you can visit wildfronteirstravel.com Eve's left us to our own accord there Jane, it's remarkable she's gone off for a wee. It's not very professional is it? I think it's lovely but also it does mean that she'll be

hearing this for the first time. What should we say? Well, it's tempting, but look, the world's in a parlous state. We don't want to make things worse, do we? No, and we'd never be rude about Eve. There's nothing to be rude about. Right, should we do our recommendations first of all, because people have asked to know just a little bit more. Oh, and you promised something. Yes, go on.

About the pet things. Well, now you've got your pet spray. What's that? Well, this is from David. He says, what is that spray for the cat litter tray? Do you know what, David? I'm really sorry. I meant to just take a photograph of it. I'm using it this morning and I didn't. I've just looked online and there are lots and lots of different sprays on offer. So basically, if you just go to some kind of search engine and put in cat litter tray deodoriser, I think you'll find that there's a wealth of opportunity and choice out there for you. And of course they have a scent all of their

own, this is the thing with deodorisers, they also whiff a bit, but on the whole can we just agree that the scent tends to be less ammonia and a little bit more floral, so possibly better. Yeah, but that's what puts me off, James. I mean, it's not that I'd prefer the scent of wee, but sometimes, you know, the jasmine top note can be a little bit tricky. Anne is a fellow greyhound lover, and Anne needs to know what the tool is for doing Nancy's nails. It's an Iridune dog nail grinder upgraded. That's what drew me

to it. It's literally called upgraded. So I don't know whether it was really shite before. It's really good now, Anne. And it's a three speed one that I went for and it's got some kind of diamond thingy in it. But you know what Anne, Nance loved it, I loved it and if you are a fellow greyhound lover you know how difficult it is to do it, I loved it, and if you are a fellow Greyhound lover, you know how difficult it is to do their nails. And then sometimes when you, if you do them with a, you know, pincer, secateur-like thing, that you just crack them and that's really bad for them. So this doesn't hurt Nancy?

No, so she went off into a kind of spacey place while I was doing it. I mean, the sound is a bit weird and there is a slight smell of burning because it's basically, it's a kind of, I mean it's like bone being ground isn't it? I say that as if I often go home in the evening and she does have a dark side. Quite a large shed in the garden. Anyway I would recommend it. Right. Eve's back. Yes okay do you have any other, while we're in the recommendations section, you haven't missed much Eve don't worry about it, do you have anything else to recommend? Because you were going to do a tv show as well today. Oh I wanted to thank whoever it was who recommended the Ted Danson, the man inside. Yes okay because

you'd like that. Which is really just so lovely. I've got around to finishing that and I think I'm just about to start. Is it Someone Somewhere that's come recommended? Now that has come also that's also come recommended. Yeah. Have you done that? No because I think it's on either Now or Acorn. I don't have I've got a huge Nutella as people know which is bringing me a great deal of pleasure but I don't have them things, no. There's a lot coming up to look forward to though on the perhaps more readily available 2U channels. Well, Unforgotten's back very soon, I love that. Brilliant.

Had you forgotten? And The White Lotus is back and I think The Night Manager, or is the night agent or is it both the night agent and the night manager? I think it's the night agent is coming back. Okay, but all of those are just delicious and I can't wait. Somebody did ask us what our thoughts were on The Last Veerers. Did you watch them? Have you watched them yet? I haven't actually watched them. No, they slightly, I think they perhaps they were being shown on that bizarre day when I was trying to get back to London I can't remember but for whatever reason I didn't watch them and I know some people were a little disappointed weren't they? Let's just be honest about it. Well the the very final one I was grateful and okay spoiler alert Do you mind if I talk about it? Are you going to watch it? Would you rather I didn't say? You go right ahead. Are you sure? Yeah, don't worry about me. Okay. Are you sure? No, I am sure.

Because sometimes you say that and I pay for it later. Also I've read the book. Exactly. Well that was the problem because The Dark Wives, which is the very last Vera ever to be filmed for ITV, we had read quite recently because it was why we got to interview Anne Cleves and Brenda Blethan at Cheltenham. That was the book that had just come out and it's far more complicated and therefore fulfilling than the plot that they managed to squeeze into the ITV drama. So I just found it disappointing because it was below the book's kind of multi-layered approach. Yeah you're right, the book is about, well amongst many other things, privatised children's homes, isn't it? So there's a lot in the book, so I would agree with you there. Read the book, perhaps, rather than investing in watching

a TV show. But I was grateful that they didn't end it with something tragic and difficult. Oh, it would have been awful. It would have been very difficult. Vera had met a calamitous end on a tricky turn in her Land Rover. And Jane, she ends up adopting a hound. Lovely. Oh, that's lovely. Yeah. A brindle as well.

Oh, that's very nice. See, there was really given away the whole ending now. I did say, did you not? You did say that. So let's hope everybody spool forward who didn't want to hear what happened at the end. Now, yesterday was a difficult day for some people, but not for everybody. And Naomi dealt with it in her own way. She simply did a drawing of a face on a satsuma.

And it just got her through the events of yesterday. And there it is, I think it's quite effective. It might be something you could do in the sanctuary of your own home if you find global events at the moment somewhat troubling. I tell you who I did see yesterday, somebody who we used to mock, I used to mock and I now feel rather bad about it because he has emerged as a quietly heroic figure in lots of ways and that's Mike Pence. Did you notice him yesterday? I did notice him yesterday and striding through the halls on his own were what four years

ago? There were people baying for his blood and threatening him with death, weren't they? Yeah, they were. Including his colleague, the then president and now president again, Donald Trump. So if I was JD Vance, I wouldn't be sitting too comfortably, mate, because you don't know what's around the corner. Anywayance I wouldn't be sitting too comfortably mate, because you don't know what's around the corner. Anyway, he won't be listening, I think we can safely say that, but Mr Pence, we see you and we recognise your courage because he was a brave man. My pants, that's how he came to be known on the podcast, just because of my southern

pronunciation of Mike Pence. Also, we've got to talk about the hat. Let's just talk about the hat. Well, do you think it was... It's a place of safety, Melania's hat. Yeah, was it a... Was it literally a protective measure? Do you think it was? I don't know.

But I don't think she does anything without putting some thought into it. And she would have had a raft of advisors. And there probably is, you know, a position within her entourage of, you know, a person who pretends to be Donald Trump standing next to her so she can get the outfit right. So she must have known that he wasn't going to be able to bob underneath to give her a great big smooch on the lips. But it was quite funny, wasn't it?

Of course it was. But you wonder whether the brim of the hat concealed, I don't know, some way of receiving radio signals or who is operating her. We will never know. We won't find out much, I suspect, from that 40 million dollar documentary that is supposed to be giving us no holds barred access to Melania. I think not. But anyway, you never know, Fee. I'm approaching the next four years with what passes for an open mind. Are you? Because it doesn't sound like it. No, I'm horrified. Well, he's won the popular vote and that means an awful lot of people are really, really

wanting him to deliver. So that's my position. I'm gonna watch for him to deliver, Jane. Well, peace in Ukraine was supposed to have broken out, that hasn't happened yet. But we don't do ourselves any favors if we don't recognize that people have voted with hope and there's nothing wrong with that. He's made an awful lot of promises and we'll see which of them he manages to keep. Because a unique new low standard has been created by him for him and he's never held to account for all the promises he doesn't keep, all the crazy things he says that go unchallenged. But apparently it's okay if he only does 10% of the things he says he's going to do.

That's all right, because it's him. But it wouldn't be all right for anybody else and I just don't get that. I think we've been lulled into a craze. I think we'll look back on this period of our lives in 15 years time and just think what was, what were people thinking? Well the only way that we wouldn't look back with that sentiment, well if we're not here or if America really does float off into its complete isolationist state and Donald Trump does manage to revive industries across the rust belt, get rid of the opioid addictions, manage people's Medicare, all of those things.

But those rather boring things weren't in the speech of 10 fanciful promises, including this insane renaming of a Gulf. I know, well. But it made Hillary Clinton laugh, that, didn't it? Yes. But that's just absurd, isn't it? If you could rename a part of this country, what would it be and what would you change it to?

Well, it's just as absurd as me saying I want East West Kentington to be renamed Jane Garveyland. What about the Isle of Woman? Yeah, the Isle of Man. Instead of the Isle of Man. Exactly. Why are we the United Kingdom? Why aren't we the United Queendom? Let's just change it. The Isle of all Colours, not the Isle of White. Come on, let's go for it. You're right. Let's start with the Isle of Man. I think that's an

excellent suggestion. It's been the Isle of Man for ages. Well, it's not, I mean, I've been there. Have you been there? The Isle of Man? No. Why do you say that so dismissively? I don't know. Beautiful parts of The Isle of Man? No. Why do you say that so dismissively? I don't know. Beautiful parts of the Isle of Man. But you're quite right. Why can't it be the Isle of Woman for just a couple of thousand years? Just to even things out? Yeah. Starting now! Yeah, let's do it. Come on!

Let's get our little size 3s. What are you, size 6? 5. Size 5. Let's get those and stamp our mark all over the country. Something's in life I am grateful for and I will say it, I've just got the perfect size of foot. It's so easy to find shoes when you're a five. I would completely disagree with that and I'm very happy to receive correspondence on it. Because if you've got a tiny foot or a very large foot, I think you end up getting some super bargains in the sale rails. Because all the fives have gone.

Controversial. Jane and Fee at Timestop Radio. Charmaine says, Dear Fee, like you, I cannot bring myself to buy ready-made sandwiches. This is something you said. It is, yeah. Charmaine goes on, I just think that the people making them, I love this, may not have the same standards as me. Well Charmaine that is my problem too. I now make pitter bread. It's the Paul Hollywood recipe. There are

only four ingredients. I freeze them individually, that's the breads presumably, and take one out and fill as needed. I also make Paul Hollywood tea cakes which again I freeze. If I don't have time for breakfast or I'm going to be out for a couple of hours, I simply toast a tea cake and take it with me. That's very sensible. That sounds an incredibly efficient system. But you're very much enjoying your mindful making of the lunchbox. Today I've got a I mean Eve's, young Eve, her eyes have been drawn to it. It's a particularly nice combination of chickpea and a bit of feta, harissa. Oh I've really gone for it today. I think people will be very jealous. I think it's a really nice combination of chickpea and a bit of feta, harissa.

Oh, I've really gone for it today, Fia. I think people will be very jealous. I think it's a really nice thing to do. I've enjoyed it. And also the trek to the canteen. A, I get bewildered by the choice. B, the portions are really generous, bordering on the absurd, and I hate throwing all of that food away. And C, it's just a little bit too distracting. We've both said it before, we've just got the appetites of birds. In my case, I will say quite a large bird.

But on the whole, yeah, you're right, the portion sizes here are... A massive joke. ...more than generous. Right, this one comes in from... pausing for effect. Carol Rogers. Hello ladies, I thought I'd make you smile by relating the story of my experience of sex education for my sons who are now 52 and 49.

I wonder whether it bore fruit. Whilst on holiday with our boys we became friendly with another family who had a girl and a boy. They said that they had sat their children down together and explained the facts of life so that if they had any questions they knew that they could confidently ask either parent. I later suggested to my husband that perhaps we should do the same. He said you can do that there's no chance I can. So I sat and tried my best. My older boy rolled his eyes looked embarrassed and said that he'd learnt it at school whereas my younger one asked questions

such as when do you do it? Do you do it in that bed upstairs? Afterwards, do you choose names for the baby? Then finally, next day, do you smile at each other? At that point I realised that neither of us were ready for the conversation. To this day he loves to embarrass me. So Carol, that's delightful. I'd quite like to know how old the 52 and the 49 year old were when you were having that conversation because actually those are great questions. They are great. I love the one about smiling. That actually goes right to the heart of the matter and is very revealing and rather sweet.

But also, Carol, what was the answer? Oh yeah, very good point. This is from Catherine who says, I wanted to write in after I heard Jane say what I've been thinking for years, that the program Call the Midwife is the TV show which covers you in a calming comforting blanket and just puts everything right. I think I've watched every single series and I know it can be corny, sometimes a bit trite and sometimes lacking in nuance, but for some reason it just gives me a reset. Over the years I've started to get a bit edgy and cross and my partner will say to me, do you need to watch Call the Midwife? And sometimes even I have said on occasion, I just need

to watch Call the Midwife. When my irritation has got to new heights it just always works to get me back on track, but I have no idea why this is. What is it about this program which makes me feel so peaceful and comforted? I can only think it's a mixture of nostalgia, although I was born in 1980 so I can't be nostalgic for the 50s and 60s, and the portrayal of loving female friendships, and I've just realised the lack of judgement on other people's lives and the situations they find themselves in.

Catherine, that's the bit that I really got. Thank you for that. Because you're right, considering that the central characters are mainly nuns, though not all of them are nuns, you're absolutely right about the lack of judgment. Everyone gets a fair hearing and it just seems that they're given the benefit of understanding whatever parlous situation they found themselves in. And I love it too, for all of those reasons. It just resets me for the week ahead. And I really miss it when it goes, because there's usually about eight or nine episodes, and I think we're on episode three or four of this new series, and we're in 1970. Sophie, I hate to break, I can actually really recognise

the Britain that they're talking about and that they're living in, which wasn't the case when the programme started. So there you go. I'd be interested to hear from other fans of Call the Midwife. I sense my partner here isn't a regular viewer. I don't watch it at all, but we've had this conversation before. I think it did. Because you thought I was being kind of snooty about it but actually I just didn't have great births and I genuinely just, it's not a massive triggering thing or whatever, it's not a big deal but I genuinely don't want to watch a programme endlessly revisiting that time. Well funny enough they always have one or two births in every single episode but they don't go on for very long, I take your point completely, they don't go on for

very long and what is brilliant about the show is there's much more about social history really than about childbirth. Yeah, I still, I don't know, I mean sometimes you just, I think you just have to not go places that you don't want to go. Well it's interesting because Heidi Thomas who is the, I think she's the executive producer and she is married to the man who plays the doctor, Dr Turner. She had a terrible birth as well, in fact she really did have a really traumatic childbirth experience and I've talked to her about it and so yeah, I mean it's a good point, so I wonder whether anybody else who feels the same as me just thinks, oh, no, I don't want to go there. But it is a brilliant illustration of Britain as it was.

And frankly, I think it's a much, they have a much, it's a much nicer world than it actually probably was. They also are very, very clear about how poverty stricken so many people in this country certainly used to be. And let's face it, many people still are. Yeah. Do you know what I'm really missing on our television screens at the moment is a really, really good political thriller though and it seems really strange Jane not to have quite a few to choose from because there's so much political stuff going down in the world.

So if you think about those fantastic series like State of Play and obviously The West Wing, hugely hugely The West Wing. I think I ever saw that. You never watched The West Wing? Oh my god. But it's What's His Name isn't it? Oh my god. House of Cards is Kevin Spacey. Oh is it? Right okay. The West Wing was really terrific. So Martin thing me Jiggy Wotsit, you know, from the dynasty. Oh God, Martin Sheen? Could Eve's looking it up? Sorry, my faculties have gone. Martin Sheen. Was Martin Sheen. Yes, it was Martin Sheen. But that's what I'd like to watch on a Sunday night. I'd want to watch something really clever, something quite kind of not intricate,

but a little bit demanding of me to take me out of my world. That would be my go-to on a Sunday night. But I think you're more drawn to that type of stuff than I am and that's totally fine. We just, you know, we don't go to the same places. Well, I don't think either of us would go to this place which is this theme park in France that's incredibly successful and it's based around history and historical events and they are planning to move a version of this to our own Septodile and place it, and I think this is wonderful, in Bister. Bister, if you don't live in the UK, Bicester is a place easily accessible from London's

Marylebone railway station, which is terribly grand, and it takes you to Bicester and to its wonderful facilities, which include a retail park. Now that's a place I've never visited, but you and I both know somebody who likes regular visits, stocks up on any number of luxury items at bargain prices. And it's much loved by, I think, by Chinese visitors. They all pile down there. Hugely, Chinese and Japanese visitors. So sometimes I've got a friend who lives out that way and on that train line it will just be almost comical how excited everybody is to be going to a retail park.

I don't know. I don't know very many people who go to... I know quite a few people who do a Bista Village once a year as a bit of a treat thing. I don't think I know people who go very regularly. Well, I'm not sure it would be a treat for me. But the tourists are so, so excited. I'm always... I mean, I use handbags because I think you need a bag. Well, I personally do. I've no interest in them.

No, me neither. So I don't, I pick up a bag at TK Maxx or any, in fact, TK Maxx is where I go. You can get one for what seems like a reasonable price there. I need various zipped compartments. But I'd never, I wouldn't be delighted to get 200 quid off a bag that supposedly was worth 500. It's cobblers isn't it? And I've just never been able to buy into that advertising somebody else's brand for them thing. Written across, no why should you? You should be paying me mate, not me paying you. Anyway this takes me back to Louise's email

which I think was probably sent to the radio program, but never mind, you can do that. You can email the radio show because it's on Times Radio, Monday to Thursday, 2 o'clock till 4. And yesterday we did talk about this theme park coming to the UK. The French version, I'm going to ask my colleague to pronounce, is called... Is it... was it... Puy de Faux?

Yeah. Or Puy de Faux? Yeah, or Pouille de Faux. Yes, and Louise took issue with our description of the theme park. She says it's not a theme, it's not a theme park. It's a montage of historical events. Local people are offered the opportunity to join in and become part of the different shows. You should see the attendance figures. Just come over on the euro thing and you'll enjoy it. It's a delight. I recommend it highly. Okay. I mean, I won't, but thank you very much for the recommendation. Okay. There's something about historical theme park that I don't know. I mean,

we were talking yesterday about which British events we would include and Fee and I both feel very strongly that we would definitely would be more likely to consider visiting the British version if Henry VIII was not a pivotal figure. Yeah, if we banned Henry VIII. I just don't want to know anything more about that man. No. I mean for, well, it wasn't for a better word, he was just a bit of a slapper. I don't think he should be spending quite so much time celebrating him. He was a capricious man, wasn't he? He was, you know, he was very, very unpleasant to women.

But he was a great lover with ulcerated legs. So I think in one of Lucy Worsley's fantastic documentaries she did explain that he got to the point at Hampton Court where he had to be winched up on a series of pulleys in order to go and do his daily business. And as soon as you've got that in your mind, you've got no respect for the man at all. Sarah, I'm a long time listener, first time emailer, out of laziness. Not for lack of engagement, I'm with you there, Sarah.

Some days we can't be bothered. Neither of us has ever emailed in, so. That's very true. In fact, there have been many times I've been desperate to impart my crap upon you. I think it gets better. For example there was a time a few years back, Jane, perhaps, Fee, I know how it gripes you so when the wrong one is given credit, pondered if the dials on a toaster actually did anything beyond extend the time the toaster was on. I had at the time received a new toaster from a popular online retailer from a likely country

with a toast menu demonstrating the dial to choose for the desired strength of toasting. Or the time you asked for embarrassing celebrity, possibly politician stories. And I wanted to tell you how I'd heard a very, very famous and revered in some quarters, but not in others, Labour politician do a very loud fart on a train toilet it was both an error and a treat to sit so close to the toilet on that trip. So **** has now gone to a place that Henry VIII occupies in my brain. Right. But it's not actually the reason that Sarah wrote in.

Oh, but to be in close proximity to celebrity flatulence is an odd one, isn't it? It's also very awkward because how do you compose your features when the celebrity emerges from the facility? Because he was presumably in a locked facility when the guff occurred. So there is a legendary anecdote about the broadcasting house, Tony, so we can't mention it because we'd have to mention a name. But I mean it just makes you laugh every time. You can never look at that person in the same way again. But it's very cruel, Jane, because we have all broken wind.

No, but as I've often said, I almost never do. Well, I happen to have been in my new house. Ruffish! It's true. And Isra-Anne can back me up. We were at your house. Oh no, OK, so once. Oh yeah, no, that was... Yeah, OK, I know, I'll give you that one. But I don't

think I've done it since. I don't think I have. I just don't think I have. There's something wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with me. It's about seven years ago. Yeah, well just some people do and some people don't. Oh dear, but you know what, Sarah's email, it did make me laugh because then the next paragraph, it's today I finally write it and I heard Jane's recent fears that SDD warnings were extinct. It's the wrong one! Anyway, I was in Miami before Christmas, you'll be delighted to know there's a big billboard campaign encouraging the use of protection aimed at the over 60s. I do not know if this is reflective of particularly randy OOPs in Miami or that the demographic

of Florida is just older and in a younger state like New York it might be younger people cuddling on posters to denounce crabs. But anyway, over 60s in Miami are both getting it on and also giving each other nasty diseases. Let's hope the campaign is successful. Now, do you know what Sarah? You've got to email in again because that is just the most, it's the most glorious email. It's made us properly, properly laugh. You've told us something interesting and I'm going to actually keep your PS because it's about childlessness and we'll try and kind of round up that topic towards the end of the week.

So please, can you become one of our regular correspondents because you've obviously got a very nice turn of phrase there, love you have, and we do appreciate hearing from you, especially from the lazy who've put it off for years. And also people who are just honest about the phrase, I've been desperate to impart my crap upon you. That is absolutely what we're here for. Yeah, it really is. We were talking about blood donning yesterday and a doctor has written in. We should wrap quite soon. Yes, alright. Well, I'll just, yeah.

She goes to the loo, comes back, starts giving orders. Quick note about blood donning. We've had an email from a doctor. Thank you, Dr Walton. Quick note about Jane's supposedly desirable blood. This will put Fee's mind at rest. My blood is not any better than yours, Fee. It's just that the blood service are currently targeting those with blood groups currently in short stock. There you go. So mine is obviously in short stock. Very lovely to hear that you're both donor donings, donors, and you enjoy the biscuits. Thank you very much Doctor,

and you can email again. Thank you. Can I just ask and obviously I could look this up but it's more fun to ask. So I'm definitely donating plasma next time around, is that different? Is that the same procedure? Well it's funny you mentioned that they did, there was a sort of thing you could tick for plasma and I don't know why nobody asked me about it on Saturday. Okay but does, is plasma just in your blood? Maybe they put it in a centrifuge and just take something different out. My O-level biology grade C is not going to come to my rescue at this point, I'm afraid. Understanding the teenage years is tough for any parent,

and being a teenager under the care of a parent can be quite tough too. Neither person in that relationship can always know which are the usual growing pains of turning from child to adult and which are really problematic areas of poor mental health and what would you do if your child spins out of control? How many of us really have the skills to administer mental health care to the ones that we simply want to wrap up in love and make all of the bad stuff just go away? Well Christy Watson and her daughter Rowan have been through all of that. Rowan had a breakdown when she was a teenager and her mum Christy is a former

nurse turned writer. But even though she had so much medical experience, she found it very hard to help nurse her daughter back to health. Rowan experienced a prolonged period of poor mental health, including self-harm, and for a long time she could only communicate with her mother on Snapchat. They've now written a book together. And this interview is with Just Christy. I began by asking her to describe the way that Rowan entered her breakdown when Christy took a call from her daughter's school. And just a quick heads up, because of the subject matter, there are discussions of self-harm and suicide in the next 15 minutes or so. Yeah, so I had a call saying that she seemed a bit manic was the word that they used. And I remember thinking, God, that's a bit odd.

And her behaviour had been strange a couple of days before. I'd caught her smoking in bed, which was very out of character and also made me infuriated as I'm sure you can imagine. And she had painted this huge skeleton on her wall which again she's always been super creative but that struck me as very very odd. So when I got the phone call from school I was alarmed but I wasn't panicking. I thought maybe she's got a virus, she's coming down with something, she was 16 at the time and up until then had been completely functional and doing really well at school, enjoying life, seeing her friends, all those things. And so when I picked her up from school, she seemed to be not making much sense. I immediately thought she's taken something, which the school had also asked her about.

She denied it till she was blue in the face. But, you know, she's a teenager, so of course she'd deny it, but that was my train of thought. And then when we got home, she just seemed to be so desperately sad and anxious and expressing bizarre thoughts, but also suicidal thoughts that we ended up in A&E. And by that time, I have to say, I was thinking, I really hope this is drugs because that's fixable,

and this just seems absolutely terrifying. So it was a really pivotal, terrible moment that still makes me feel quite tearful when I'm talking about it. But up until then then I would say she was completely functional and that was a switch and from that moment on we sort of descended into this really dark, awful, challenging mental health place that I know so many other families are going through right now.

What's intriguing about the book obviously is that you write it and she writes it too. So we have this really interesting perspective of what has happened. So can you just put into your daughter's words how she viewed that time? What did she believe was happening to her, if she could even grasp that? I think the point of the book is that I don't want to put words into my daughter's mouth and that she expresses herself very well indeed. So I wouldn't speak for her, but what she has written about in the book is the fact that she felt like she was even more aware of herself and felt completely coherent but

realises looking back that's obviously smoking bed at one o'clock in the morning is very very odd and disturbing thing to do but at the time it felt completely normal. So she has got a memory of that time and just feeling really really unhinged I guess. Do you worry that she has put down on paper some of the worst times of her life that actually, and she's much better now isn't she and she's at university reading classics, top subject to read Chris, but do you worry that she's captured something in aspect that actually she might want to move away from later on in her life. Yeah, so we had this contract when she was 16.

She's now turning 20 very shortly. And for years I said, I don't think we should do it because your 30-year-old self might not want to have this out there in the world. And I was very, very, very anxious about that and still have anxiety about it. But she was adamant about why she wanted to write it, when she wanted to write it, which was now, and the fact that this was what she wanted to do and she could articulate that as I said really well. So I kind of, I suppose, made a judgement and I hope it was the right one. She's certainly really

enjoying all the messages that she's getting from other families saying they feel really seen. I think she sees it as a really valuable thing to do. But yes, it is a funny thing. At 16 when we first got the contract, the book was called Conversations in Our Living Room and we had to change the name because at one point we weren't talking at all for about six months. So there were no conversations. It was zilch conversations. So we must talk about that. I mean I think you put into words really brilliantly just the skating on thin ice feeling of parenting and when you are confronted with such a challenge to find the best mental health care for your daughter, you know you are out there't you, as well as her. So can you tell us what kind of support you were able to get?

Well, we were very lucky. And although we didn't feel very lucky at the time, we were incredibly lucky in that we managed to get seen by CAMHS, the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service, very, very quickly. Now that in itself worried me so much because I know the pressure that they're under and the fact that the waiting list for CAMHS is absolutely astonishing and really unacceptable, I'm sure for them as for everyone else.

But we were seen by CAMHS quite quickly, we had lots and lots of support from friends and family. Again, we're lucky, both of us in our friendship circle, that we had lots and lots of support from friends and family. Again, we're lucky, both of us in our friendship circle, that we had support, both of us independently, to go through it together. But it didn't feel lucky. It felt like a really lonely place for both of us. And I think that's partly why we wanted to write the book, is to say that, you know, we went through this awful, pivotal moment in our life and our relationship and we came through the other side and recovery is possible. It was for us, you know, Rowan's living a very beautiful, happy life. And I feel like we need those stories of hope as much as anything else.

Can you describe a day though when it was bad? Oof, a day when it was bad from my perspective was, I remember going to a CAMS appointment actually and we were being assessed by a new psychiatrist and we were talking in the appointment. At some point we hadn't slept, either of us hadn't slept for months, literally months. And so we were quite emotionally unstable, both of us were quite mentally unwell by that point. And I remember us both building, as Ro calls it, she said we built, which means we became more and more argumentative with each other, until we were almost screaming at each other in the cams room and the psychiatrist kind of slinked away backwards. And both of

us just burst into laughter. So even though that was kind of theinked away backwards, and both of us just burst into laughter. So even though that was kind of the lowest point, we just found something funny to laugh at because it was just, I don't know what broke through with us, but there was always humor, even in the really dark times. And I think that got us through. And so the dark times were really not sleeping, both of us. Ro wasn't going to school for a long time, and I just didn't know how to get her there.

And I felt like I was completely losing my mind as well. So it was kind of a house of two women losing their minds. What do you do with the very, very worst fear as a parent that actually your child will harm themselves and really harm themselves? Yeah, I mean it's almost unbearable to even think about, isn't it, as a mum? And the sad truth is that you can do everything that Kam's recommends in terms of hiding anything harmful so it's not immediately in front of a child. Hide the knives, the lighters, the scissors, the everything you can, the paracetamol. But the truth is, as any parent or nurse will tell you, that if

somebody wants to hurt themselves then they will find a way. And the sad truth is that there is very, very little that you can do about that. And to live with that is a really shocking, awful thing to happen. I guess for us the thing that really helped, Ro calls it loud love. I always had loud love and sometimes she wasn't in a place to hear it or accept it but it was always there and so even then frankly I was so angry with her, my hair was standing on end for some of the behaviors that she was exhibiting. I always unconditionally loved her and made sure to open that line of communication and I think the best

advice I can give a parent going through this awful awful time is to really get as much support and help for yourself in order that you're able to still do that through the really dark times. Rowan says so many very, very perceptive things in the book. One that I really enjoyed reading is this, we were the generation who all wanted to die, but still had a 20-step skincare routine. Now, you know, I'm not being kind of trying to be facile or, you know, laughing at that because it's such a serious starting

point that sentence. But there's something really extraordinary about her generation where on the one hand they do know so much about the world and can calibrate so much in their world, but they are experiencing some really really difficult mental times. Can you better explain how that seesaw is working now? I think there's always been generational division between mothers and daughters that's nothing new we've all experienced that with our mums and them with their mums and their mums before them but there is something new in the world. And the new thing in the world is, as Ro very eloquently puts it,

the world is literally on fire. And you want me to go to my tap dancing class. You know, it's almost ludicrous. And so the greatest gift I think that I was able to give her ultimately once I'd understood what she needed was understanding that she has pressures that I've never faced growing up, and none of other generations have faced as well. And so we talk very much about a disordered eating being rebranded, for example,

and climate change and AI and other existential things that she's going through, and racism and class and lots and lots of different subjects. But I think ultimately, you know, the humour is the thing that got us through for sure. And that's been the connection that we've had. We've always been able to find humour in the darkest places. What part does technology have to play, do you believe, in what she went through? It's really interesting because I think I'm a bit more nuanced about social media than she is and I very much feel like that was a terrible thing for us. She didn't get a mobile phone until she was 14, she was older than her peers, but even

then I look back and think I wish I'd given her a phone perhaps later. But it was the one thing that we were able to communicate on. So I would morph my face into a chicken nugget or a piece of broccoli and send her a little Snapchat message. And inevitably, nine times out of ten, she would come back to me. And that was a time when she wasn't really able to communicate in any other way. So I found it on the one hand really terrifying terrifying but on the other hand quite a helpful tool. But she had been accessing all of the things that as parents we really hope that our children aren't accessing which is the

online groups and forums where really self-harming behavior is being encouraged, there is suicidal ideation, you know, the darkest of stuff is going on. She had seen all of that, hadn't she? Yeah, and if you asked Rowan about mobile phones, she would say that her and all her peers are absolutely not going to give smartphone to their own children. Absolutely not, because she said even with limited access, it's a fallacy. If you give your child a smartphone, they have unlimited access because they will know a way around it and that thing absolutely terrified me because obviously I was trying to limit access but

she said every young person in the world knows to get around the limiting access rules and you can't operate the Sky TV remote mum so how can you know? It is so true isn isn't it? Yeah. So Rowan is at university now. She is doing really well. She's studying classics. How are you? I'm good. I'm very sure I need a big chunk of therapy now.

Now we're on the other side of it. And I'm looking forward to that. But I'm really good. And the relief, the relief, and also the sadness that other people are going through this, you know, it's a really complicated process that I'm going through, I think that I need to unpick because I have already been contacted by so many families saying that they are really in the thick of it. And you know, we are failing our young people, There's not enough help in terms of mental health support.

And so it's just really, really sad to me that others are going through it, but I just feel massive, massive relief that Ro is on the other side of this. And, you know, it's not linear. She has good days and bad days like we all do. But this is definitely a moment in time and she seems to have moved beyond it and is fully functional, enjoying life. so I couldn't have wished for a better outcome really. If there would be one thing that you could change, one thing that you could implement having been through all of this and you know take

your pick from politics, economics, the tech world, whatever, what would it be? It'd be much more individual than that actually because I think, Rose said the thing that helped her the most is when I started helping myself so I would look What would it be? It would be much more individual than that actually because I think, Rose said the thing that helped her the most is when I started helping myself. So I would look after myself a lot more because I just felt like I wasn't looking after myself. I was so distracted and focused on her completely. But there is a very powerful message I think for girls who are able to look at their mum and say they're really taking care of themselves and loving themselves a bit,

which is really hard as women to do, especially Gen X women I think, but that's a really powerful role model-y thing that we can all do. So that's what I would have done. I would have taken much better care of myself. Christy Watson and her daughter, Rowan, have written the book together and it is available now. I can really recommend it if you want to just read something that isn't lecturing you at all about how you might fare in similar circumstances. It's not giving you advice, it's just absolutely telling their story how it is. It's called No Filters, a mother and teenage daughter love story by Christy Watson and Rowan Egberongbe. And that's out now.

It is out now, yep. And we've got another interesting guest tomorrow, haven't we? So Julia Black, and many of you wanted us to book her, and Your Wish is Our Command, and she's talking about lifelong learning. And I think many of you are interested because her theme is to really play to the strengths of your child and for people who feel that their kids are very much fighting an education system that is pretty kind of set in its ways, I think an awful lot of people have found comfort in that. So, Julia's on tomorrow. Okay, and our guest on Thursday is Rose Hudson Wilkin, who many people will know. She is,

well, she still is, yes she was Britain's first black female bishop. Remarkable woman. I've just started her book and her childhood fee was really tough. And I didn't know that about her and I now have renewed respect for where she's got to in life. So it is ladies week this week on the podcast, but next week don't worry, all men. Will it? No, I'm just making that up. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.