Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Head first into a tub of taramasalata!

Episode Date: October 23, 2023

Fi's off so friend of the show Jane Mulkerrins is sitting in! Jane and Jane discuss public transport, nipple free zones and the myth of jet lag. No big guest today but Jane Garvey will explain all... If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Okay, we're on. Can't beat a bat at the bush.

Fee Glover's on holiday. It's half term. That also means that London's underground network is full of people taking their kiddies to see the sights. I wish they'd stay at home, Jane. I really do. There were a lot of them on the Elizabeth Line. Oh, sorry, I haven't said who you are yet. This is Jane Mulkerrins, who's Associate Editor of the Times magazine,

a very, very good friend of the podcast and a friend of the Times radio programme too. Yes, you were saying? Thank you very much, Jane. I was on the Elizabeth Line this morning from Heathrow and it was packed with foreign teenagers and British teenagers and all their, you know, their

managers and caretakers. It was just, oh, it was a seething mass of youth. Was it? Yeah. Was it annoying? I mean, a little bit, but you know, they're allowed to have their school trips. Now you mentioned... Not in the same carriage as me. Yeah, exactly. Have them somewhere else. You mentioned the

Elizabeth Line from Heathrow. That's an international airport, well known to British citizens, but not necessarily to everyone. That's true. I mean, it's a global

podcast this. Well, it's not a... Well, anyway, you know what I mean. That's the other company. It's a Times radio because it goes international.

It's listened to around the world. That's really what I meant. So keep that in. But you have been away to New York. Yep. I was in, well, I started in Boston. Yeah.

I was there for a few days. Then I went to New York. Then I went down to Washington, D.C. And then I went back to New York. Spent a lot of time on Amtrak and various other forms of train, you know, transport around the East Coast. Right, OK. So I've never been on an American train.

What are they like? Slow. Are they? Yeah, Amtrak's slow but massive and very comfortable, actually. But the subway in New York, I mean, good Lord. I mean, if anyone has complaints about the London Underground, they should go to... I don't really.

I think it's marvelous. Oh, good. Yeah. OK, you're that person. Yeah, the subway in New York is, oh, good Lord, it's fetid. You're the second person in about three days to say that it's now become properly frightening on the New York, which I think it always used to be.

Then it was really improved, wasn't it? And New York itself was vastly improved. And now it's got really dodgy again. Yeah, so I will say I went, so I lived in New York for nearly 11 years from 2010 till 2021. And I left during COVID. I went back about six months later at the end of 2021

and New York felt like it was on its knees. It was in a bad way. It was really dirty. A lot of homelessness. I mean, more so than usual, which is pretty high anyway. People living in tents in Washington Square Park. The subway felt dingy, a bit scary. This time, I have to say, the city as a whole felt better.

It felt like it had bounced back a bit. But interestingly, lots of my friends said I wouldn't catch the subway late at night um I did catch it a couple of times around midnight and I felt perfectly safe and you know the city so yeah it's probably a little easier for you to do but I wouldn't do it maybe at 2am I think um but it's funny I the years that I lived there I always felt safer in New York than I did in London actually um it's it's weird I think if you go to the wrong neighborhoods you might be more likely to get shot or mugged but I think overall I found street crime less sort of aggressive in New York than here right okay which

you wouldn't expect but it is to do with that the fact that things did get cleaned up yeah under Giuliani and then under Bloomberg as well um and yeah it felt it you know it's busy it's busy until late at night so you don't feel like you have those moments when you're walking home on a dark street and there's no one else around most of the time you're not okay right well I'd be interested to hear what other people think about um New York and about about subway. I must admit, I haven't been on a London tube train very late at night since I can remember, so I can't

really comment on the comparison. But there'll be people listening who do know. And of course outside London too, there is life. There are also other train networks. Don't get me started. I went, I did go out of London this weekend and in fairness I had a very positive

public transport experience where was this i went to the peak district oh my neck of the woods yeah well i was thinking of you oh i thought i mean nothing else uh same for me when i was away yeah i bet yes i'm sure yeah no i went to a place and it was somewhere between leek congleton macclesfield i mean i felt very ignorant because although I grew up not that far from there, almost because it was quite close to home, I didn't visit it. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, absolutely. But that was the Manchester side, isn't it, rather than the

Sheffield side? Yes. I mean, I'm not saying I was away with a bunch of old farts, but we did go and see a National Trust property on Sunday morning. Bidulph Grange. Oh. Highly recommend. Have you been there? Okay, excellent. No, I haven't. Well, it was very interesting and it had a Dahlia display. I'm not very good on flowers.

Yeah, well, no, the whole thing was a garden. Oh. But there was a special Dahlia section and to my shame, I did not know until Sunday what Dahlias actually looked like. Yeah.

Now I do know. Am I arranging my face in a way that looks like I know what a Dahlia looks like? I don't. No, okay, that's actually, okay, I'm actually look like. Yeah. Am I arranging my face in a way that looks like I know what a dahlia looks like? I don't. No, okay. That's actually, okay, I'm in good company. I get the feeling that Fi probably would know what a dahlia looked like. And some of my friends did know, but some of the blokes didn't have

a clue what a dahlia was. And so, where were you staying? Well, I probably shouldn't say, but in a sort of property that was rented for the weekend. It wasn't, it's not a stately home. I don't want people crowding into the same property just in case people think, well, I'd love to lay my head in the same four-post. Well, it wasn't a four-post.

Anyway, it was actually a school reunion and it was lovely because we watched the rugby on Saturday night and obviously I'm not a big fan of England rugby, but I just like sport. So there was no way I couldn't have watched that match. I only watched the second half. But it was funny to look around the room and think I could have been watching sport with the same people in 1982. Aww. That's so nice.

Yeah, it is nice, isn't it? Yeah. And the men were all explaining the rules to the girls and stuff. It's nice they still do that, isn't it? They still do that. Because we don't really know. And in fairness, I don't really know. And if we do know for one minute, we'll forget it. Well, that's the other thing.

It goes in one ear and out the other. And I'm just basically thinking about cakes and bunnies. But no, it was lovely. And I thought England's manner of defeat was really rather cruel, because nobody had given them any hope at all. And actually, they put a proper show on and then lost in the last minute. At least that's my reading of it, Jane. I could be completely wrong.

If there's a man out there that can explain properly, that'd be great. Yeah, Jane O'Fee, Time Stop Radio. There seemed to be a lot of flapping about in the mud. They got terribly dirt. Anyway, so that was my weekend, but not as exotic as your trip. Well, yeah, I mean, it didn't feel like a holiday I have to say without wanting to sound

really precious I'm like a total princess but because I used to live there going back involves the logistics of just

it's like a tour of sort of you know I do feel like a member of the royal family but you're very much pressing the flesh up and down the east coast you just had to go

and see people it's also because I don't know when I'll next go back. I haven't been back for a couple of years and there's lots of very dear friends that I wanted to see. So it was very lovely indeed. But now I'd quite like to not make any plans for several weeks. OK.

I mean, I'm incapable of doing that, but that's my aim. Because you're quite a go-getting, you're a bit of a socialite, aren't you? Yeah, I like people? Yeah, you are. I like people. Yeah, well, Fi and I, neither of us... I'm pubs. ...much likes people. And we were talking last week about,

or the week before, about our velvet rut of shame. Like the weeknight routine of, yes, I do this, I watch a bit of Channel 4 News, and then I'm upstairs, I'm in bed by ten. Yeah. But not you. Well, some nights. Some nights I do go home, watch something, eat something, go to bed.

What a woman. Yeah. There would be a guest, but there isn't because of various political matters. But you will be able to hear on the podcast tomorrow and indeed on Times Radio tomorrow, my conversation with the American author and academic Kat Bohannon, who's written this really extraordinary book called Eve, about the female anatomy and how it has influenced evolution because of the things that the female body can do, has adapted to do,

has evolved to do, whichever way you see it. So much fascinating detail in there. Yeah. I mean, all about just things like how nipples began, what we did before nipples. Was there life before nipples? I don't think there was much of life before nipples, but there was life of a sort.

And I think female creatures could kind of seep nutrition through some kind of pad on their skin, but it wasn't a nipple. So is this sort of biological anthropology? I think so, yes. Yeah, OK. Fascinating. My O-level in biology, grade C, was doing a lot of heavy lifting during the course of my conversation with Kat,

but she was very interesting, and you can hear that tomorrow. But we haven't got anything today. It's just waffle. A nipple-free zone. It's a nipple-free zone today. Other guests later in the week include Ed Gamble and, I'm so excited, about the Hairy Bikers. The Hairy Bikers. Both of them?

I think both of them, yeah, but I'm being told both of them. A lot of hair. I don't know whether we'll get the bikes, but we'll certainly get the blokes. And their food is, how would I describe it? Hearty, but usually extremely tasty i'm hoping they'll bring you something with chorizo uh i think i'm bringing what the hell they like i'm almost certain i'll enjoy it um hi jane and fee says simon and hackney uh we've been talking about

grandmothers and about the things they can do and about the things they weren't able to do but this is just about nicknames that grannies have attempted to give themselves or as simon puts it my gran's attempted rebrand. Following on from your other correspondent telling you about her G-Granny B, my paternal grandmother was called Jean, and tried to rebrand herself by combining Gran

and Jean to make Gringe, so that all the family could call her by one name. It just didn't stick. And it wouldn't, I'm afraid. Gringe. Yeah, thank you for that, Simon. Also, on a granny't stick. And it wouldn't, I'm afraid. Gringe. Yeah, thank you for that, Simon. Also, on a granny tip, dear Jane and Fee,

I've loved hearing the contributions from listeners about the lives of women a generation or two ago. My grandmother, born in 1900, was fortunate to be given a good education compared to many women of her age and class, and as an adult, had a successful career as a primary school teacher and headmistress however as she needed glasses as a teenager and her father who thought them unladylike would not allow them to wear not allow her to wear them in his presence she used to sneak upstairs to

put them on in her bedroom and gaze out of the window. I love this. I mean, women not allowed vision because it's unladylike to be able to see properly. That truly is a world beyond sexism, isn't it? Where a woman couldn't see properly because her eyeglasses in some way disfigured her. Was that the thinking? Her father

thought them unladylike. I mean, presumably she didn't need any reading as a lady. Well, you wouldn't think so. No, you really wouldn't think so. This is from Louise, who says, you both know the term the change. My grandmother would never have used any other word for it.

She would also never have used the word pregnant. Expecting was the only acceptable term. I suppose I did know there was a time when you didn't routinely say the word pregnant. I mean, not even I'm that old enough to have not found it acceptable, but I know there was a time when people just didn't say it. My grandmother was not of a middle-class background. She was the daughter of a builder with lots of older brothers

working with their father, so no lack of money, but also being one of the youngest of 13 children, not many luxuries either. She was born in 1896. She remembered the national grief when Queen Victoria died. She collected a coronation mug for all of the kings. She loved the late Queen and Princess Diana. She lost brothers in the Great War

and a younger brother died as a baby. She spent the Second World War following my grandfather around England in the hope that he might get time off to visit her, but he never did. Her first baby was christened Betty, but only lived for a fortnight. She was adored by my grandfather. Eventually, late in life, she had my dad. Totally adored, but smothered with love,

my father left to join the army as a boy soldier before he was 16. My father will soon be 91, which was his mother's age when she died. She celebrated her 50th wedding anniversary, but by her 80th birthday, all of her siblings, her first baby and her husband were all gone. I was only just an adult when she died and now I'm middle-aged. I see what a blessed life I've had and my parents as well. So lucky compared to her and what she went through. I feel as long as we remember her, she isn't really gone, says Louise.

And that's true, actually, isn't it? As long as somebody is in your thoughts, they haven't gone anywhere. I know it's not much comfort if you've recently lost somebody, but it is worth bearing in mind. And I think also bearing in mind, you know, those of us, even in the same countries that our grandparents grew up in, you know, do have lives that look so different just in terms of, you know, better childcare, you know, maternal care. Yeah. You know, we haven't seen any large scale wars that we've lost, you know, huge numbers of members of our family in the UK.

Yeah. know huge numbers of members of our family in the UK yeah obviously globally that's very different but our lives do look very different from our grandmothers because of those you know very simple elements yeah very I mean things like the contraceptive pill yeah access to abortion all quite helpful um in in my opinion um have you seen the one from Pauline about her one of our all-time feminist heroes, Barbara Bodycon. Oh, I love this. Yes. Love the sound of Barbara, who I'd never heard of. She lived mid-19th century and was the illegitimate cousin of Florence Nightingale.

I love that detail. I mean, that's another cracking detail. And that meant she was never really accepted in polite society. Nevertheless, she was the instigator of the first petition for women's suffrage, a prime mover in the reform of the married women's property law, the founder of a progressive school for working class girls and boys, and the co-founder of Girton College, Cambridge. Incidentally, she was a true and

loyal friend to George Eliot when George, when Eliot was ostracised for living with George Lewis out of wedlock. George Eliot was, of course, not a man. Not a man. No, they weren't gay. It was a Lady George. Anyway, truly, insofar as we as women enjoy a far better life, it is on the shoulders of giants like Bodichon. I hope I've got that right, or Bodicon. It can't be Bodicon. I'd like that it should be called Bodicon.

That would be completely right. Especially because then she goes on to talk about Victorian women's clothing. So I like the idea of Bodycon being her name. I like that she says, Fee was talking about cumbersome Victorian women's clothing and Bodycon had a lifelong impatience with inconvenient modern dress, which is only suited to carpeted rooms, where it appears graceful and proper.

In the streets it is disreputable, dirty and inconvenient. I love that barbara also abandoned corset wore loose fitting clothes shortened skirts and blue tinted glasses presumably for her ipad so that the you know so she could the blue light didn't affect when she's going to sleep yeah presumably that'll be it yeah yeah definitely um northern lights uh is the subject of mel's email i've noticed a few Hull, the city of my birth over recent weeks, none of which were particularly complimentary. I'm sorry about that.

A very dear friend of mine went to university in Hull. She can't say anything negative about the place. She absolutely loved it. Anyway, none of which were particularly complimentary, which brought to mind a comment from my friend Linda after another friend expressed his surprise at my bravery or foolishness at swimming with sharks. When you come from Hull, there's nothing to fear after that.

This week, there was a similar mention of Blackpool as an undesirable destination, which reminded me of a family member's answer to a quiz question about another name for the Northern Lights. She quickly responded in all seriousness with Blackpool Illuminations. Mel, that's very good. And I wouldn't mock because that's the kind of thing I'd have said. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening.

Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Changing subject quite dramatically. Bit of a swing left

Go on Dear Fee and Jane I'm writing to you from a house in the jungle On a small island off Panama I have to say You're just showing off correspondent I know but I also want to know which island this is Because I have been to some islands off Panama

Is it Bocas del Toros which are very nice Say that again Bocas del Toros They're really nice you'd like them Overrated Yeah no mini donuts Really? Yeah no Definitely not going to Definitely not Say that again. Bocas del Toros. Really nice. You'd like them. Overrated. Yeah. No mini donuts.

Really? Yeah, no. Definitely not going to. Definitely not. This listener was triggered to write by talk of the upcoming interview with Claire Balding and her book, I Love Dogs. Yes. At the beginning of the year, my partner and I signed up for a pet slash house sitting site looking for an adventure.

He's semi-retired but not one to sit around watching the walls and I have a small online business which I can do from anywhere so he thought let's do it. The first sit was a month in an olive grove in Tuscany looking after 13 tiny black sheep then two weeks in Cornwall falling in love with a perfect pointer dog onto beautiful Somerset for two weeks with a lovely golden Labrador, a shy cat, seven sheep and ten chickens, then a short stint in Bristol with a young rescue retriever on the way to stunning Pembrokeshire in two weeks with a wonderful old border collie.

Wow. It goes on. Two months on a big island. Quite the odyssey, this. A big Alsatian, four rescue cats, 11 chickens, Athens, two rescue cats, back to Cornwall, perfect pointer. Small tropical island, rescue mongrel, two cats, big rottweiler anyway, this sounds

incredible, what a way to spend your retirement she said the whole experience has been a real eye opener and it's been a real surprise just how quickly all the dogs have been willing to befriend and trust us and follow us around, I'd only ever been a cat owner before and have to confess to being a bit nervous of big dogs

especially of the rottweilers and Alsatian varieties but my mind has been completely changed i am now a confirmed dog lover um i'm that's very nice i mean i sort of fancy retiring now and just traveling around looking after pointers and black sheep great it does sound yeah i mean but does she explain why she's now in her current location oh it's it's just that this is where they are. I mean, this is where they're looking after, what are they looking after? A rescue mongrel, two cats, a big rottweiler. Yeah. Oh, I see.

They're actually on an animal job at the moment. Yeah, they're on their animal job in Panama. Crikey. I know. Honestly, the lives people lead. But it's also good to know that sometimes people make the wrong move. And this is from Sue. Is that comforting?

Yeah, well, it is to me. We're back on the subject of grandparents. Sue says it was the 100th anniversary of the Walt Disney Company this week. And my grandfather, a man called Alex Oxley, was a commercial cartoonist pre the Second World War, mainly for Triumph Motorbikes. He also drew cartoons for comics and worked on Animal Land, an animated cartoon, Animal Land? Yeah, Animal Land. Yeah, an animated cartoon,

as part of a group of cartoonists and animators at Moor Hall Studios, aka Gaumont British Animation. And Sue has enclosed a photo of her grandfather at work. He looks very impressive figure. And Sue has enclosed a photo of her grandfather at work. He looks very impressive figure. The family story is that he was invited to work on Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs in L.A. by David Hand, a fellow animator and a supervising director of the film. However, Grandad said no, because he was sure it would not be a success. Yeah, I've never heard of it.

That is a shame, Sue. To say I'm familiar with that film would be the understatement. My eldest child watched it on repeat every afternoon, I think, of her third year, and I do mean every single afternoon. Sometimes they had to fast-forward through some of the really frightening bits. What is it about children of that particular age where they have to watch the same thing again and again

and again I was always very grateful it was Snow White and not that other episode of Postman Pat where was it who's Postman Pat? The Reverend Tims' cousin, Flight was delayed and God it went on.

And the number of times I've watched that, unbelievable. Obviously, I'm not watching it now. I should hope not. No. You do grow out of it eventually. I occasionally treat myself last thing at night. Dear Jane and Fee, I thought I would email in response to Sarah's dilemma in trying to find a lovely man to date via a dating app.

Yeah, glad you've done this. I saw this. Yeah, glad you did. It's really interesting. The listener says, why not consider dating a woman instead? It sounds like you've met a lot of lovely, like minded people through all of the interesting courses you've done. Perhaps one of them might be interested in a date. Listener says, I say this is a 42-old about to be divorced, previously heterosexual mother of two. I came to the conclusion last year that I was only likely to find the level of emotional intelligence I was after in a woman. I was completely terrified, both of online dating and of changing my sexuality. And I wasn't sure whether going on a date would just feel like

meeting up with a friend. On the third date with with the same person I felt a spark and I haven't looked back it was probably one of the best decisions I've ever made and I've been knocked sideways with all of these feelings feeling truly lucky I think this is absolutely fascinating I think god I mean I've got friends who you know are married to women who that's exactly the reason that they stayed, is that they felt that the emotional intelligence was the thing that they really felt was different in a same-sex relationship with a woman. I think, I wonder, are we saying,

is our correspondent saying that she didn't get the same level of emotional intelligence from male partners? I think that's what she's saying from male partners or one in particular on the other hand uh i'm really i don't know is it is there well i don't know because i haven't tried it i'd never rule it out and i don't think you should no and i'm very grateful to our correspondent for saying that it's worked out for her i think we need to throw this one open so i think in 20 years time we won't be having this discussion. Because it won't be a discussion. It won't be a thing. Because young people now date people of the same sex,

opposite sex, you know, non-binary. I think by the time they are choosing partners, they've, you know, they've dated everyone, which I think is incredibly healthy. They don't have this attachment where they have to identify as one thing and i think that's just so incredibly healthy they just they date people not a gender and i have heard and if you couldn't pick me up on this and i could be completely wrong that sometimes women when they're of reproductive age do find themselves attracted to men because for whatever reason biological imperative it's about the biological imperative comes into play. And then when that's over, they suddenly think, oh, actually, oh, she's really nice. Yeah.

Or I could imagine a lifetime of talking to this person. Yeah. And can I just be really honest? Sometimes relationships between men and women, you see them everywhere, the couples who've run out of things to say. Now, I'm not saying that two women will never run out of things to say.

What I might suggest is that it's less likely. I think you're probably right. If you like each other. Obviously, if you don't, then there's no point trying. But let's make that our theme of the week. I would love to hear about that. Have you been in the same place as E,

our correspondent, Jane and Fee at Times.Radio? I definitely think if I was a teenager now, I'd be very much more fluid than I have been in my life I just think I would be It's my theme of the week You said you didn't have jet lag but maybe I think it might be coming on

Jane said earlier that she didn't suffer from jet lag because obviously she got the red eye I mean I more or less got the red eye although in my case it was a train from macclesfield at three o'clock yesterday afternoon um but you got the aviation version of the red eye and you claim that jet lag only exists if you believe in it you don't believe in it so you haven't got it i said do you believe in pms you said no therefore you also claim that you'd never had it and i don't believe that either i think my probably my family would argue with that one, certainly with the PMS.

But I do think there's an element of mind over matter when it comes to jet lag. Are you in the army? Well, yeah, I have also been accused of perhaps having been in the military in a previous life. You're so strict. Only with myself. Anyone else can do whatever they want.

I had the PMS. Obviously, I don't have it anymore. But I should say that I do remember that when I knew my period was due, I would start, I would know and therefore my behaviour would change accordingly. I'm convinced of it. So I find myself, in my case, and everybody's different, head first in a tub of tarama salata. I've not really enjoyed it since.

But there was something about it. But if i forgot that my period was due then maybe there's something in what you say because i don't remember getting pms then in fact i don't think i did get it isn't that odd i mean i'm not saying that i don't feel like sometimes slightly more sensitive whatever but i also just think I never matter. Yeah, I do think I am, with myself, one of those people who's just like, get up, get it done. I don't mind what everyone else wants to do. But yeah, it has been observed that perhaps I was, in a former life, some sort of squadron leader. I think you must have been a sergeant major.

I mean, I'd like to say I saw you in the officer sort of class. But I think more Sergeant Major. Thank you. Yeah, well, that's just my view. OK, we've probably rambled on long enough. There's plenty of material for the rest of the week. We've given you some ideas. Boy Swallows Universe is our book club recommendation.

Are you doing that one, Jane? I'm not. I should probably catch up, shouldn't I? You can if you want. I've got to read a book about Britney Spears tonight, though. Are you a speedy reader? Yeah. OK. Is it a speedy reader? Yeah. Okay. Is it Britney's own book?

Yeah. Okay. It's got big letters and not many pages. Actually, I'd be quite genuinely interested to hear what you say about that. Okay, I'll chat about that. I'm on page 19 of Boy Swallows Universe. I am, no, Eve, I am trying. I am trying with it.

You've made great progress since the podcast at the end of last week. I think you'd read three pages, haven't you? Yeah, I tried last night. I was very tired after time travelling back to Macclesfield. So I'll see what I can do tonight. But there's, you know, I'm also watching Bodies on Netflix. If anybody else is watching that, let me know what you think about it. It's set across four timelines.

It's all very peculiar. And apparently, according to the Times Review, it doesn't really reach a conclusion. Like all good, promising Netflix series, it sort of me it doesn't really reach a conclusion. Like all good promising Netflix series, it sort of meanders. It tails off a bit. It sort of meanders to something approaching a sort of climax.

But anyway, a lot of life's like that, isn't it? Right, stick with us. Fee is back next week, but Jane is a more than adequate substitute. And Fee, I'm missing you. She won't be listening. Are you missing her? Fee?

Yeah. Who? Yeah, exactly. The spirit. She won't be listening. Are you missing her? Fee? Yeah. Who? Yeah, exactly. The spirit. We'll see you tomorrow. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so

of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he was an executive.

Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at three o'clock, Monday until Thursday, every week, and you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day, as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects.

Thank you for bearing with us, and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iPhone