Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Head first into an absolutely delicious meal...

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

Fi's shower is juddering and Jane reckons we should get the plumbers in to have a look...Plus, Claire Powell finally joins them ‘Off Air’ to discuss her debut novel (much championed by our Jane), which addresses family dynamics over a series of meals.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producers: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. All right, we're here. It's Wednesday's Off Air.

Thank you very much for listening. Now, we had a bit of a busy news day on the programme today, the radio programme, because, slightly oddly, we'd already been talking about Prince Harry, hadn't we? Which was a bit odd in itself. Well, the story about the car chase had actually appeared in the news and was online and in some papers because the story this morning was that they'd gone to an awards ceremony, Meghan was up for an award.

Which she got. And they'd left the awards ceremony and they'd had to leave the SUV they were travelling in and transfer to a New York cab, one of those yellow cabs, with Megan's mother to continue the journey. So we'd been having a gentle little chortle about that and wondering why they got out of a nice luxurious SUV and got into what can sometimes be a little bit of a rickety journey in a yellow cab. And then it turned out it was something far more serious, at least from their perspective.

Yes. And so far, as we speak, and it's only five o'clock at night in the UK we don't know exactly what has happened because as you say we've only got their version of events but it has to be said that if your mother has died in a car crash when you were very young you never ever ever want to be involved in a high-speed chase with anybody I imagine it must be absolutely terrifying so I think we should just reserve judgment shouldn't we? Oh, very much so. Because we don't know enough. Very much so. And whatever the story does or doesn't turn out to be,

I think you always have to think, well, what if a chase like that went wrong, really, really, really badly wrong for them? You know, if, God forbid, history really repeated itself, there would be absolutely no place for cynicism of their experience and actually the netflix documentary that they've done the opening scene is all about them being followed by somebody on a little moped in this country and you do get that sense of of their fear you know whether or not you believe it to be exaggerated or whatever. We're not in

their shoes. I've never been in the back of a cab being chased by somebody. So you have to drive erratically. So what would we know? So, yes, I would reserve my judgment on it. But it's amazing how quickly people do want to judge them. Oh, it's within nanoseconds. Yes. Yeah. So we're not going to be those people. We're not those people. We are without fault and we will not do that. And also, we've got plenty of other things to talk about. But it did mean that our big guest, Claire Powell, had a slightly shortened experience in our company, didn't she? But she was very good about it. Yes, she was. I was just saying to our colleague, Young Eve, that Claire is currently working from home with a small child.

So just coming out and being with adults in a bit of a flurry is probably not the least entertaining afternoon she's had this week. Not that there's in any way anything wrong with the delightful company of the under twos. It's just occasionally it's good to get a break. They can be long days, can't they? Inspursed with, I can't remember, my lovely neighbour Claire, long days, can't they? Inspursed with, I can't remember, my lovely neighbour, Claire,

she called them joy surges, that you could spend a whole day, you know, almost weeping into your plastic toys at home, you know, with the frustration of it all, and that would be you as well as your child. But then you'd just have these joy surges. Do you remember those, when you just looked at your child and your child and those little moments always made it absolutely all right to carry on? When they were asleep. Oh, no, well, sometimes when they were asleep.

No, I had joy surges during the day when they were awake. There'd be that sudden moment because there's just a very, very big age gap between you, the mum, and the little toddler. But there were always a couple of moments in the day where all kind of joined up and you were I don't know in the same kind of zone yeah it is actually that takes me back to Claire's book because it is about and it ends very poignantly the book um on a conversation between mother and daughter and um it's all it's all just very close to home for any of those of us who have been a daughter or are a daughter

and are now a mother or not. I mean, listen, life comes at you in any number of different ways, but communication is never that simple. You'd love it to be, but somehow it just isn't. And maybe it's simplest when they're absolutely tiny. Well, yes, but this does bring me on to the row I have with my oldest daughter about Noddy's biological sex or gender. Of course, they're not the same. We don't want to get into that argument. But this was the first row I ever had with my oldest child. And I'm not alone,

because Millie says, Hi, Jane and Fia, just wanted you to know I had the exact same row with my mum when I was a child about Noddy. I was convinced probably about the age of four that Noddy was indeed a girl. And I would not hear it from my mum that the situation was any different. I put it down, says Millie, to the fact that he has quite a feminine face. Does Noddy have a feminine face? He has a very likeable face. But it's definitely a boy. We've determined that. I've decided. Excellent. We're creating a little bit of a rumpus over in Australia. Hello, Jane and Fee, I've been thinking about emailing in. And whilst listening to your dulcet tones, it seemed like you

were speaking directly to me when you said, don't go to sleep, Penny from Australia, your email is coming up. This was definitely my cue to join the conversation. What I wanted to share with you doesn't involve nudity, but is heartfelt. I mean, that's enough of an email. I found you lovely ladies in your podcast during COVID when my daughter was in the UK studying and couldn't get home. Listening to you regularly made me feel just a little bit closer to her. My father was born in Cheltenham and my daughter was at university not far from there. She's since been home for a visit and set off again to the UK for her Masters. We miss her, but we are so incredibly proud of her courage and independence.

Her passion is equestrian sport, so she's in the very best place. What a lovely class of listener we have. Most kindest Australian regards, says Penny. P.S. nude swimming Penny and I are firm friends, as we're both Sopranos here in Perth, Western Australia. They're just all in it together, Jane. Well, they are, but with no clothes on.

Well, yes. Now, I think the other Penny did actually email back, didn't she? About the fact that we had alerted the whole Fremantle community to the fact that she was swimming in the nude and it's actually illegal. It is illegal. Put your kit back on, please. But I think, wasn't Penny the lovely one who had also stood and saluted a boat going past

when she was in the nude? Or was that somebody else? I don't know. Anyway, can I just say a very, very quick hello to Sarah, who's got a greyhound, lives in Dalston, was listening to the podcast when I walked past her in a shop. That's very spooky. But you just should have tapped me on the shoulder and said hello.

And I'm sure that we'd end up, at the very least, we'd be taking the greyhounds on a dog walk together by now. We might even have moved in together, Sarah. So what a missed opportunity that was. I think she describes it as an upmarket supermarket. Well, no, she says of a well-known overpriced supermarket. Oh, overpriced. Yep. And and to be honest that could be quite a few so I don't know which one it was price of food these days you're dead right there yeah I'm not going to say this is the final word on how regular should sex be in a long

term relationship but I feel as though we have ironically perhaps gone on about that quite a lot this is from a Caroline a Caroline not Caroline, not that Caroline, a Caroline. Could be any Caroline. I find that the prospect of having sex is a bit like going to the gym or going to church. You'd really rather not. But once you have, you think, actually, that wasn't so bad after all. Well, that's one way of approaching it, isn't it? I think that's a very worthwhile thing to say, actually.

Yeah. Because, you know, sometimes you look at a menu and you go to the restaurant and you think it's going to be great and it's a bit disappointing. Well, it can work the other way around too, can't it? Yes, it can. Yes. You can find yourself in the middle of an absolutely lovely meal, Jane. Head first.

Well, I don't quite know what direction you're taking the podcast in now it's not a workshop no no it really isn't um let's move on very swiftly to a german listener if he's right we haven't just got high class listeners although we certainly have we've just got listeners from all over the place some of them in clothes not all uh this is melena i can relate to all the listeners that shared that weird feeling about when you're estranged from family. It happened to me a couple of years ago after my dad passed away. Some people from my family didn't even bother to ask

how we were doing at that time. I quickly realised that there are other people that I should appreciate much more because they actually do care as much about me as I do about them. Chosen Family is also how I got hooked up on your podcast. I was an au pair in London years ago, and my host mum and I connected really well, and we've stayed in touch ever since.

She listens to your podcast, and she wrote you an email where she told you all about my well-planned trip from Germany to Cornwall to meet them, and how it all went slightly off plan when me and my husband both got COVID. I do remember that. Since then, I've been listening to your podcast on my way to work, and it just feels that I finally

have a little bit of London in my home in Germany. Melina, Melina, Melina, Melina, what would it be? Melina. Melina. Oh, no, would it? I don't know. No. Thank you so much anyway. And we're really glad

that we're bringing a bit of Blighty out there to Germany, as they used to say on Two Way Family Favourites. So I think both you and I are surprised by just how many people have stories of estrangement to tell us. I confess I didn't realise it was quite such a shared experience actually and I suppose it goes all the way back to the first email correspondent who told us about her estrangement and explained just how difficult it was to admit to it actually. There's a kind of embarrassment attached to it and a feeling of shame certainly there was on her part and a feeling that she just hadn't, you know, somehow it was on her, you know, if your child is the one who's chosen to be estranged from you. Well, I think if nothing else, I hope that correspondent feels, well, I think she

does, doesn't she? She feels reassured because she's written back to say that at least I know now that I'm not the only one. Yeah, But so many different stories. And we were thinking, actually, that we might do this on the programme. We would obviously completely anonymise any of the emails that have come our way. But we might actually talk to an experienced professional about it, see whether we can get some proper advice. Yeah, some sort of family therapist, somebody from Relate or one of those organisations.

Because Relate don't just do relationship breakdown of the sort of man-woman or woman-woman type. What am I trying to say? Romantic. Couples. Couples, that's it. They do all sorts of other stuff. So perhaps that is something we should explore. But I'm conscious that there doesn't seem to be. It's no good just saying you're more likely to be estranged from a son.

You could just as easily, judged by the correspondence we've had, be estranged from a daughter. It could be a sibling. There could be a reason for it. Or you might be completely in the dark and just don't understand why it's happened. And I suppose the value of hearing it on the radio is if you're on the other side of the estrangement,

you are the one who is doing the estranging it's quite possible that you don't know because obviously there is a silence involved in that relationship now how you're making the other person feel or you know what avenues might be available to you to change the situation so I think it would be worth talking about some more and thank you for you know all of your emails you've been so honest and it's obviously an incredibly painful thing to decide to sit down and write a long email to two strangers although we're not strangers we are your friends you could never get rid of us uh so thank you to everybody who's done that we can't can you uh this one uh comes from someone who's been listening to us for a very long time, entitled Podcast Titles. Following your discussion about your orgy in suburbia, this is from Sandra.

I quite like being told off by Sandra. Sandra says, I look back at your last week of podcast titles and wondered whether they could be taken the wrong way. Here we go. Helping grandma into her girdle. These enormous knickers are on and they stay on. Helping Grandma into her girdle. These enormous knickers are on and they stay on. An orgy in suburbia. I've blinked twice, let me out. Let loose on Noddy. And Sandra says,

do you decide on these titles or is that down to production? And Sandra has put production in inverted commas. I bet she has. I've listened to your new ending and I'm very glad to hear the live bit has gone but why do you say bearing with us and congratulate your listener for getting to the end of your podcast? We listen to your podcast because we enjoy it. Would a man say the same at the end

of his podcast? Hope you managed to get hold of Melanie Sykes. Well Sandra I'm sorry about that you could always just stop before you get to those things at the end. I never get to the end of a man's podcast, so I don't know the answer to that question. And we are very much hoping that Melanie Sykes will come back on the programme because she's got such a great story to tell, actually, and we'd really, really, really like to be able to bring it to you. But just to be honest here, do you listen to some men's podcasts? So I do because sometimes I find myself drawn

into the sticky spiders web of Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart and yes, I'd listen to anything done by Jamie Bartlett and actually he's got a new one out at the moment, hasn't he? He was the one who did The Missing Crypto Queen

Yes, yes He's got a new one, I can't remember what it's about but it was something intriguing It's actually a really interesting subject, it's about a new one i can't remember what it's about but it's something intriguing it's actually a really interesting subject it's about a woman i think a young woman with munchhausen's syndrome by proxy yes absolutely uh who set up her mother set up a charity and it's about whether or not the charity was valid so happy to listen to that so yes i do like to listen to that. I mean, I've got my issues with Campbell and Duda. Stuart, sorry. Yes. Stuart.

But at the same time, I can't say I'm not listening, because that would be a lie. This is another listener in Germany. She's often thought about writing, but never got round to it until oh, it's the subject of husbands versus dog farts that I had a view on. I did compose something in my head, she said, but it never got any further.

Also, then I thought about writing to you about moving abroad. I came to Germany as a classical ballet dancer in 1984 for six months, never went back to Britain. I'd been told to get on my bike, so I did, leaving what our listener describes as an arts-hating Tory land for a welcoming theatre life for 15 years. I'm now self-employed with my own ballet school. I'm a month and a few days older than you, Jane, and I love the archers and I've never stopped listening. We didn't buy a house once because of an electricity pylon that interfered with the long wave reception of Radio 4. Now that is the sort of woman I can relate to. Would you refuse to buy a house because the paucity of Radio 4 long Now that is the sort of woman I can relate to. Would you refuse to buy a house because the paucity of Radio 4

long wave reception? I'll be straight in there making a deliciously low offer for that house and I'll be grateful for it. I'm just never going to get into The Archers and I've nothing against people who listen to it, Jane, but it's like, you know, when you say to people oh, I don't really like running and if

you're with someone who runs, they then basically conversationally pin you up against the wall to explain how much you'd like running if you just tried running some more. I don't like running. No, no, I'm completely with you there on running. Yeah, so don't do the you're a lesser human being because you don't listen to the archers.

I just don't want to listen to the archers. I just don't know what you listen to in the bath on a Sunday night, that's all. I just can't imagine what goes through your head. Well, I don't have that long a bath because I think very, very long baths are a little bit dirty. And the shower makes such a racket. Actually, I've got a juddering shower at the moment. And that's not a euphemism.

Three separate groups of plumbers have now come round to look at my juddering shower. What's the latest? Well, the latest is they've got to take the whole of the back wall off the bedroom that the shower's next to in order to get to the bottom of my juddering shower. And I just decided this week I'm going to stick with the judder. Well, is it omnipresent or is it only when the shower sort of reaches a kind of crescendo? Well, I wasn't going to say that.

So the shower goes on for about five of climax. Well, I wasn't going to say that. So the shower goes on for about five minutes and then it starts juddering and then it just won't stop and then it peters out. Oh, you're right. Don't get it seen to. It'll cost you a packet. Just have a four and a half minute shower and be done with it. Well, exactly. That's what I do. So I don't have time to listen to the archers and I wouldn't be able to hear it over the judder.

Final word on the archers. Don't ever, ever, ever bring it up again. People wear it as some kind of a weird Masonic badge. It is like the dodgy handshake of the liberal elite. The blob.

I don't want any part of it. You'll be going to one of those funny Conservative conferences making a speech about how we should all have 19 kiddies and stay at home with them. Yes, I'll be saying I've contacted Margaret Thatcher on my Ouija board. It's one of the strangest political speeches I've ever heard. To be honest, there were quite a few strange political speeches at that event. Right, let's move on to our guest today, Claire Powell,

the author of At the Table, that debut novel that I've been wittering on about for quite some time now. It follows members of the Maguire family over a tumultuous year of get-togethers over drinks and dinners and lunches as, well, all kinds of family-related conflicts arise and relationships within the family are re-evaluated, I think it's fair to say. It's not a tragedy, but it does make you think there are also some really funny moments and observations in the book. I urge you to seek it out. I did put it to Claire that these sorts of books are actually rather harder to do than the ones that are deadly serious and are just bound to make you cry.

Yeah I don't think I set out to write a funny book but then I think I was just trying to, my goal was just to write something that was very, very realistic and I think that life is quite funny, as well as being sad and crap and, you know, it has its funny moments. So that was more my goal rather than... But I'm glad that people have found it funny. People have also found it not very funny at all when I look at some online reviews.

What's been the nastiest online review you've had? Oh, Nasty People. I think that was one that I read recently. It said it's nasty people and it's a nasty family. Oh, no, but that's just... They're not nasty people. They're not, are they? No, they're not at all nasty people.

They're people with full of good intentions who make the sorts of mistakes that we all make. They're human. Yeah, they really are human. And I think communication is sort of at the heart of this book, or sometimes a lack of it, and a desire for a connection with our family that is sometimes very hard to achieve.

Anyway, let's just lay out what happens in At The Table. It's the Maguire family. It's Linda and Jerry, her husband, and Nicole and Jamie. They're two adult children. And it starts with a meal at a very posh restaurant, the Delorne. And just explain what happens at that meal. So, yes, they're at a meal that is for, it's like a delayed Mother's Day lunch. So already when they start the meal, there's some tension because the parents haven't

arrived together. And you can kind of pick up on this already sort of dynamics between the different family members, particularly the mother and daughter, Nicole and Linda. And they're all sort of ready to have this jolly lunch and everyone sort of be on their best behaviour. all sort of ready to have this jolly lunch and everyone sort of be on their best behaviour and the parents kind of drop this bombshell that the father Jerry has moved out and he's been living in a flat for the last couple of months and actually they are separating. Which has implications obviously for everybody and the adult children are of course course, like we all do, still behaving like kids and they take it all incredibly personally. Yeah. How do you stop as a child being a child?

I mean, I'm still a child. My parents are still alive. I'm very grateful for that, obviously. But it does have, well, implications for the way I live my life. Yeah. I don't know, but I think what can especially happen is one of the things I sort of wanted to look into with the book is that I think what can happen when parents stay together, when parents are still together, that dynamic from childhood can continue. So children can go back to the family home and you can be 40 years old and you can revert back to your teenage self or your child self.

And you do. And exactly, people do. years old and you can revert back to your teenage self or your child's self and you do and exactly people do and what happens with this book is where when the parents separate the children sort of have to go on a bit of a journey um of also accepting their parents as adults and individuals and not just this kind of the two parents and so everything has to change within the family because of that are you writing from personal experience at all that my parents separated when I was a teenager which I think is a much more common um but I do think that it made me have a very different relationship with my parents in a I would say a more grown up yeah

well in a way you're often because of divorce forced to spend time alone yeah with the parent that you might not live with exactly yeah you don't see that often yeah and and not in not in the family home so you're not going back for that Sunday lunch or you know um the things that you were used to suddenly you're seeing them in a different environment and talking about different things. And I love that sense at the beginning that there's almost an audacity to an older couple getting divorced or separating with that kind of,

well, why don't you just make it through till the end? You're so old. You know, just make the teabag last a bit longer, loves, why don't you just make it through till the end? You're so old. Just make the teabag last a bit longer, loves, why don't you? And then just this wonderful sense of why it might be, the realistic, actually, assessment of a relationship that can no longer continue. I thought that was very clever. Oh, thank you.

Yeah, they're kind of, I mean, they're both a bit immature, as in Jamie and Nicole, about relationships and what they expect and what their sort of model is. And this news sort of sends shockwaves through their lives and makes them reassess the relationships that they have or the things that they um had wanted or thought that they wanted you're a first-time novelist but you have written short stories before and in a way um i wonder whether this was your kind of way into novel writing because there are relatively short chapters and each chapter is about an encounter that always involves family members and food yeah so is that why you decided to do it that way because you'd had such success with your short stories before uh yeah i suppose i mean i didn't go into it thinking oh i'm i've been successful in that i think i probably just found it a bit easier to think in smaller

um and so i liked changing perspective of the characters and kind of going into um i think in every chapter i have to remember because i haven't read the book myself for a couple of years now but i think you should read it it's really quite good that's so funny have you genuinely forgotten bits of it i sometimes somebody has said something about a character and probably a side character and i've had to go i'm sorry i don't know who are you talking about but it's like been a really sort of minor character and i've completely forgotten and then had to go on what hang on a minute who oh you mean that person that friend or you know uh but yeah i

think i liked the yeah i i like myself sort of having that structure of okay here's a nice short chapter it's going to have a beginning middle and an end and then we're going to move on to the next person you see i think that's really helpful because i think anybody's at home thinking i've got a novel in me i just need some advice about how to start, will have taken that. And that is a really good way of approaching it, I think. Oh, yeah. I would definitely, I still sort of, for the next novel that I'm writing,

would change perspectives because it feels easier to me than, I mean, I love books that are written, say, in first person, stick with one character throughout but it feels sort of I don't know a bit too big you write from the male perspective we hear what Jerry the dad is thinking and going through and Jamie the son as well and I wonder did you I mean are you confident in your ability to write the male voice because I read quite a lot of books where middle-aged men seem to be really quite confident that they know exactly what a woman would be thinking and doing. Sometimes I'm not sure they've got it right.

How did you approach it? So before this novel, I did actually write another novel about ten years ago that I wasn't able to sell, and that was predominantly from the perspective of a middle-aged man, a furniture removals man. And I loved him and I was with him for such a long time. It took me about five years to write it. And I felt confident in it because I completely believed him.

And in the same way... So, yeah, I've always enjoyed writing male characters and I actually haven't heard, I mean I'll say this now and somebody will probably write online, well I didn't think this was, but I've actually, I haven't heard a bloke say no I don't believe that that's

so yeah I feel confident Because the character of Jamie, the young the son, I said young son, he's not actually that young, he's about to get married and he really is having doubts and i think you write his what more than ambivalence about his approaching nuptials really really well do you have do you have you got male siblings i've got a younger brother okay is he getting married can we just talk a little bit about that uh craft of writing because you did the ma didn't you in creative writing at the university of east anglia which is absolutely uh it is the the very top of

the pile of creative writing courses isn't it but still they get knocked sometimes don't they an author will pop up every five years i think hannah curation did didn't he a while back saying oh it just makes everyone derivative. If you're really talented, you don't need to go on a course. What did your course enable you to do that as a clearly very talented writer you wouldn't have been able to do without it? I mean, one, yeah, I was pretty talented

before I went on the course, but I think the course massively helped me. And I've done other writing courses since. I actually went on a summer course at the Stinging Flies, an Irish magazine. They did a summer course a few years ago. I think you need readers. And I'm not saying do an MA because it will give you readers, but it will. For me, I took a year out from work I it

gave me the time and I knew that I was writing for this group of really good readers to read every I think we did it about every month um and by readers you submit work so my group my workshop yes so the other my course mates um and And they were brilliant and they all had really good feedback and I don't think I could have got there by myself. I'm not saying I had to do the MA. I could have done other courses, but I absolutely think I'm suited to courses. I'm suited to sharing work.

Of course, somebody else might might say you can do it without it and people can but um but you had a way with word you're an advertising copywriter aren't you yes are you still doing that no not at the moment well i had a baby last year and i'm i can't i'm i'm trying to not do copywriting when i put him in nursery and go back because I'd rather keep writing fiction. Yeah, I think now you probably will be able to, I'd have thought. But when you do advertising copywriting, you are, I mean, you're literally writing for money. I mean, it's a really tough gig, isn't it?

Yeah. What was the most obscure bit of copy you had to write without naming the brand? What was the most obscure bit of copy you had to write without naming the brand? Well, I did a lot of writing for a sort of healthcare stuff. And so I did a lot of writing about people who have bladder problems. In fact, not just bladder problems. I've done everything down there written about.

Have you? Yeah. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility There's more to iPhone. Claire Powell, the author of At the Table, is our very welcome guest this afternoon, because I have been raving about this book from everybody's sick to death to be talking about it. I'm sorry about that, Claire, for some weeks now. Let's talk about the whole food at the centre of the way the book plays out, because most of us actually i mean i'm

58 i'm the reason i think it resonated with me is i'm the same age as as linda so there's a lot about linda that i can see in myself and when i was growing up we didn't really go out for family meals or if we did it was one of those roast dinners where you could start with half a grapefruit or a glass of orange juice served completely independently of anything else um but what was your childhood eating out experience like um well i mean not too dissimilar from that we we certainly we only started going more to restaurants uh when i was older and in And in fact, more really when, yeah, like a late teenager and older than that, it just wasn't what you did. No, people didn't. People didn't, exactly. It wasn't like we were unusual. And I think today's younger children, I mean, presumably your child has already fine-dined in some of the greatest establishments in London.

It is odd how that has changed and we don't really comment all that much on it. Yeah. But also at the heart of this book is the notion that Linda particularly feels this, that other families somehow do it better. She's an observer of other family activities, other families being really at ease with each other, it would appear.

And we all think that and we're all wrong, aren't we? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. would appear and we all think that and we're all wrong aren't we yeah yeah uh yeah and she i think linda feels i mean she feels a sort of distance from her children who feel like they're in this they're sort of part of a different culture to what she grew up in anyway because they seem so much more sort of metropolitan and um Sophisticated. Sophisticated, exactly. And then she looks at other families and thinks other families seem so much more happy and together and loving.

And yet somebody else could have looked at the Maguires before Linda and Gerry separated and thought that they were a really happy couple. I mean, the children did think that. Yes, it's actually always quite depressing. Let's not end on this bit. No, we're not going to end here. I'd much rather hear about your happy family meals

out with your nan and grandad at the Pizza Hut. I think it was Eltham, is that right? In Eltham, yeah. Yeah, they'd take you there. They would take me there. I have very strong and lovely memories of, my nan and granddad were amazing at childcare. They looked after us a lot when we were younger.

And weirdly, my nan and granddad kind of always, like when I think of their ages, they were probably in their 50s then. And yet they have always seemed like my nan and granddad. Both of them are dead now. But I still think of them as being kind of old and you know my granddad what he was wearing and my nan and her perm um but yeah we we absolutely loved pizza hut and i think for my generation i'm in my late 30s uh that was definitely a restaurant that a lot of us went to well actually you're right it was a kind of a gateway restaurant, wasn't it? Definitely, yeah.

Yeah, for all sorts of reasons. I'm in my 50s, 20 years older than you, and Pizza Hut was a destination of delight when we were growing up. And actually, it was where my mum would take my sister and I if she ever needed to really get us out of the teenage doldrums. We'd go to Pizza Hut. We were fascinated by the salad bar. Absolutely.

Just the height of luxury. Was it healthy salad? It was healthy salad. No, it wasn't. I didn't realise it wasn't healthy for a long time. Oh, come on, what was bad about it? I mean, it might have been out for a while. Thousand Island dressing?

Thousand Island dressing, potato salad, bacon bits. It depends what you were having. Maybe you were having the green salad. I think there was a green salad on offer. There was a green salad. I remember there being a lot of sweet corn and definitely a lot of grated carrots. Yes, that's true.

So that's not bad. Yeah, that's all right. I don't think most people just stuck to that, though. I think they might have had it and then a bucket of Thousand Island dressing on top. Yeah, it was all of that. So now that you are a parent yourself, are you slightly haunted by that whole

how will we communicate in the future thing? Because I'm in a good-winning Kate Winslet drama, I Am Ruth. You see, I tried to watch that, and actually I found it so excruciatingly painful that I had to just pack it in. It wasn't that it was bad, in fact, it was brilliant. I just couldn't watch it. No, I talk to my friends about this all the time

who just have babies, and we're all kind of like, well, we don't have to think about it yet because we've got 11 years before you know they have a device or something like that and by then instagram will have moved on something else will be uh but also i've i've had a boy and so i'm saying to uh my uh partner his dad can you just take over when he's a teenager because i've just got no idea then and I don't even want to think about bedroom stuff and all of that you know bedroom stuff oh like the smell oh I think you've got such a nuanced ear for you know what people are saying but actually what they might really be thinking I would predict that your parenting will be as nuanced

and you'll probably be absolutely fine. Thank you very much. I think you will be too. And the poor old removal guy who was left in your first novel. Yeah, publish that. Is that not published? He might be coming back. Oh, good. Music to my ears.

I think I'd like a copy of that, Claire, if you don't mind. And what's your next one going to be about? Just a hint will do. A hint, A Missing Person. OK, right. Is that going to be a little bit comic or is it all...? A Missing Person and two people's relationship with him, two different people's...

Again, I'm not going to write it to be comic. I hope that there will be some light moments. But, yeah, we'll see. That's Claire Powell, who's a little bit worried about the future. I think her son is really tiny, so he won't be, well he will be emitting certain odours, but nothing she needs to be concerned about at the moment.

And I do think she's got that, I mean that's why she's such a successful writer already. I think she's got that real observer's genius, actually, to hear something in what seems to be normal dialogue that you're reading that actually tells you so much at the same time. I think dialogue is very, very... Do you ever... I've done this, actually. I've recorded a conversation and then written it down in the form that the conversation actually occurred.

And it looks nothing like it would look in a book. Yeah, so it's a very, yeah, it's a very, very different art. Yeah, because you talk, I mean, I've just done it, you talk over people, you interrupt, you repeat things. I mean, it's, you know, it's... Yeah, and also a lot of conversations, you don't know where they're going, but in books, you don't know where they're going but in books you have to know where they're going

well yes it's a very different art form can I feel my PhD coming on I don't know darling at least it'll get me out of your life for a while well you know that's how long's a PhD

it can take years it really can. Yep, run with that. Sounds like a great idea to me. Look, if you've got any advice for the shower jugger... No, seriously, because people... At the moment, I've got a funny issue in my house where if I put the hot water on, the heating also comes on. Well, I bet that's much easier to fix.

Well, I don't know. I've had a bit of chin stroking going on in my house as well. I think I've got a limescale build to fix. Well, I don't know. I've had a bit of chin stroking going on in my house as well. I think I've got a lime scale build-up. Right, OK. You can start with cranberry and see how you get on from there. OK, Jane and Fi at times.radio or Twitter. No, don't tweet us. You can, but we're not here.

It's obviously a podcast. Do you know what we decided in the production office today? Isla's on production with us today. She had a very, very sensible suggestion for a way to deal with a particular illness that can afflict the ladies. And it was to mix milk and bicarb of soda. And we didn't know whether that was to put it on somewhere

or to drink it. But maybe I'll try that with my chattering shower. Just bathe it. All right. Okay. somewhere or to drink it but maybe i'll try that with my chattering shower just bathing all right okay let's get that lovely man in from pimlico plumbers charlie mullins actually we could have a plumbing show that would be fun no oh come on oh come on everyone's got some kind of we can do both lady plumbing man plumbing and house plumbing. Yeah. I think that's a great idea. That's the podcast that no one's done so far. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air

with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us

and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that. A lady listener. I'm sorry. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with anna

from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone