Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Hearing from the Manchego again in warrior pose (with Derek Jacobi and Richard Clifford)

Episode Date: January 14, 2026

Happy Hump Day! It’s all going on: Fi’s been taken over by a spirit, and we’re about 50 miles outside Bromley… Jane’s added even more items to her ever-growing list of dislikes… They also chat about lying-in hospitals, burping yoga, mallen streaks, and Frank Bough. Namaste! Plus, Sir Derek Jacobi reflects on his career and discusses his tour with his husband Richard Clifford. We’re taking suggestions for our next book club pick! The brief is: books that deserve to be re-read. Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. You can listen to our 'I'm in the cupboard on Christmas' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1awQioX5y4fxhTAK8ZPhwQIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Between not drinking alcohol. This is the new improved Eve, everybody. Doing dry January. Well, this is sober Eve. I'm doing dry January 2. Oh, are you? Yeah. And I'm just loving it.

Yeah. I mean, it's really... It's so silly to say I'm loving, not putting a poison into my bloodstream on a pretty regular basis. on a Thursday, Friday and Saturday evening. But that's what we're talking about, isn't it? Yeah, it's weird.

I do feel lighter and brighter. There's no doubt your sleep. Everybody's sleep is improved, isn't it? And actually, I haven't needed my alarm clock for the last couple of days. I'm just waking up with the birds. Wonderful. But it might be mating foxes, I don't know.

Yeah. Well, I've got a friend's 60th this weekend, so I won't be dry. Well, that is the huge problem for them. So there are many, many birthdays in January. Who are these people? In our family and I am just having to, you know,

just chink with a lucky saint. I do love a lucky saint. Yeah, I don't mind alcohol-free beers. It's the most glorious, beautiful, wonderful, sunshiny, crisp January day in London and that is because it's my son's birthday. My son wouldn't listen to this in a million years,

but maybe literally in a million years, you will. So I would just like to say, say happy birthday and he's such a lovely young man and he's 20 which is just incredible as a friend put on the WhatsApp you grew a whole man it's quite a thought because you are a tiny woman which just sounds wrong what time of day was you born he was born at oh and I get I get the two of them a little bit mulled up he was 2.37 in the morning so he was a after midnight Oh, I see, okay. Yeah, and my daughter was 1137 in the evening.

Okay, gosh. Nighttime once. And that's the interesting thing about C-sections, isn't it? That they tend to be in the day. They tend to be, if they're scheduled C-sections, not emergency ones, then they tend to be between 9 and 5, I would imagine, and possibly never on Wednesday afternoon. Because that's when the consultants playing golf.

What time were you... Well, yeah, no, I was just thinking about it, both in time for lunch. Okay. Although, in fairness to me, let's be fair, the eldest one was born the day after the elective cesarean was scheduled because they've been a, I think they've been a road accident actually, so not remotely complaining. I was shoved down the list and spent a long day,

nil by mouth in the hospital and were sent home and had to come back the next morning. They were very kind, actually. They did an elective C-section for me on a Saturday morning because I'd spend the whole day the day before not eating. Well, I think they took one. look at you. Yes.

I mean, those pictures are, they continue to delight. And they're brought out at times of great stress. Because it turns out I'm not suited to be four and a half stone heavier than I actually am. But it's difficult when you're a tiny person. Well, it is. It's a tough, it's actually quite tough in the latter couple of weeks, isn't it? Particularly, I'm not, well, no, not particularly if you're small. Although if you are small, it's just more obvious, isn't it?

Oh, no, it definitely is. It definitely is. And my gynecologist obstetrician grandfather used to say, and he was really, really good at his job, he used to say that he took extra care of short women because actually the measurements that you have as a very small person mean that birth can be very difficult for you. And he would never, ever let a woman of our stature,

which is around the five foot mark, go beyond her due date or more than a couple of days beyond her due date, because actually, you know, if you're going to have a very big, baby, there is a massive difference between what that might do to a five foot woman or a five foot nine or ten woman. I mean, it just

sounds to reason. Yeah. And he would quite often make a decision based on height as much as anything else. So yeah, no, I think it comes into play. And also it's just comical, isn't it? Because you can be as round as you are tall. And I think both of us suffered from that.

Indeed. Or chose to be that. It's very, very slickly, brings us on to... Well, let's... So the The conversation about the Metropolitan Hospital in Dahlston led us on to a conversation about lost hospitals in London and the lying-in hospitals of London. So thank you very much indeed to our correspondence who have been in touch. Rosemary says, I'm a long-time listener, etc., etc. I try to contain myself.

Well, don't. Just give into it. Give into it. We've long since packed containing ourselves in, trust me. As a retired nurse, midwife and health visitor who trained and worked to London in the 70s and 80s, I thought I'd let you know of a fascinating website that other listeners might be interested in Lost Hospitals of London. The Metropolitan Hospital in Dahlston is there. And she goes on to say that their mum, that is her siblings, her sister,

and their mum died in 2020. And to be orphaned at 67 and 71 was very strange. But it's brought us even closer together. I hope it will do the same for you and your sister. Do you know what we might talk about later in life, orphans, maybe later on in this podcast or in a different podcast, but shall we stick with the Lost Hospitals of London? Because the lying-in hospitals, Jane, I think were a wonderful thing

that if you don't know anything about you should know. Yeah. Well, this was the idea that after you've been through childbirth, you deserved a rest. Well, as the website says, and it's a brilliant website, Lost Hospitals. of London, you were expected to spend a month in confinement as part of the postpartum period. Some cultures today still allow you to. Exactly that. Yeah, and you just stay in bed and you feed if you're breastfeeding and well you just rest up. Fantastic. I mean, there's a lot of detail and it's probably a little nerdy to go into too much of it or all of it. But I would say

that there's an awful lot about double standards and judgment, isn't there? This hospital that's featured in this article is I just want to get this right. It was the hospital which opened in April of 1767 as the Westminster knew lying in a hospital and it was actually in the borough of Lambeth and that's just one of those things. Hospitals are often named after places where they are not situated. For example, London's Charing Cross Hospital is not in Charing Cross. Yeah, it's way down your honouringham. It's in Fulham. It's on the Fulham Palace Road. Never understood that. This hospital was renamed in 1818, the general lying in hospital. Anyway, none of that is significant, except I just wanted to mention that the governors of this institution were under a great deal of pressure to admit

unmarried women. And in the end, slightly grudgingly, they did allow them to go into the facility. This is because, and I'm reading from the website here, they'd received many representations of the severe hardships and distress experienced by these women who friendless and overwhelmed by shame were tempted to kill themselves or their babies. I mean, this is just horrific. Unmarried mothers were only admitted once and to separate wards from the married women. I mean, all these women going around making themselves pregnant and getting themselves into a state, it's just unbelievable. Yeah, I mean, it's really, it is very sad. God, it makes you so angry. to think of what might have precipitated the pregnancies as well.

And actually, I can't thank our correspondent enough for drawing our attention to this website. I got completely lost in it at about 6.30 this morning because it is just fascinating. And so many of these beautiful, beautiful buildings have been turned into business centres or luxury flats and all of that. So it's so good to try and keep the original history alive.

The general lying in hospital, and I'm going back to the website here was a sister hospital to the Maudlin Hospital for Penitent Prostitutes which attempted to reform prostitutes and to train them for domestic service by means of a strict religious regime

both hospitals and this is the penitent prostitute one and the one that Jane's just referred to were intended to help relieve the sufferings of the weaker sex I mean this is just mind-boggling isn't it? Absolutely mind-boggling And the idea, I mean, penitent implies that you, it is within your control to turn around your attitude to your own life.

So you're going to do some penance. Yeah, well, you've been a shameless hussy. Yeah, so you've chosen, you've chosen to sell your body because, I mean, why not? I mean, that just must be so much more fun. Oh, yeah. You know, go girl, go girl, female empowerment and all that. I mean, it's just mind-boggling, actually. but how fantastic that there was a place that you could go

if that's what your life, if that's the hand that life had dealt you where you could actually be looked after albeit with an awful lot of people looking down their nose at you at the same time. If you've got a spare half an hour, by no means is the website depressing. I mean, you know, we've just picked two examples that perhaps are,

but it's a fascinating look back. Apart from anything else, Jane, it just boggled my mind at how many hospitals there were. Oh yeah, different sorts. Fever hospitals. Absolutely. All sorts of places. Hospitals for every time of your life.

So obviously, you know, children, very elderly, all the bits in between. For women and for men, for different religions, and for different ailments as well. And there wouldn't have been such a huge population as that there is in London, this London town now. You mentioned so many of these places are workplaces now, or indeed luxury flats. I'm always a bit better.

by this. Would I be entirely happy? For example, some of those huge old asylums. And prisons. Yeah, and prisons are now flats. Would you be okay resting your head every night in a place that you knew had maybe 100 years ago, maybe 150 years ago, incarcerated people? I don't know. Do those muscle memories in the walls? Well, I'm drawn to them. I'm kind of with you, but I'm also... You don't know what's happened to. your house? Well, I must have mentioned about that... Yes, you have.

I've brought it on us. I'm so sorry, kids. We're not going to go, rubies with that anecdote. No, you don't. You don't know what's happened in your house. You don't know who's lived there. You don't know what tragedies they've suffered. You're right.

Do you think that the walls have ears and memories? I don't know. I just don't think I'd be entirely happy. And I'd love to hear from people who have and are extremely happy, buying a gorgeous apartment in a former mental asylum. I just don't know But you could Your house could be on the site of something

Of course Yeah things are always being dug up in London Aren't they? Yeah I'm sorry I've got very croaky there It's so I've been taken over by spirit You know you haven't You're not in Bromley

And we're nowhere near Halloween So just forget it But also let's just be honest About the experience of childbirth these days You can be in and out in less than 24 hours, can't you? Oh I think it's awful Jane I just seem a bit brisk I think it's too brisk.

I think it puts way, way too much pressure on the mum to return to life that they only left 24 hours beforehand. You know, it marks an enormous change, if not the biggest change that you will ever make in your life. I don't think they come much bigger. Exactly. So, but do you remember that journey back? I remember driving back from the hospital.

I was in that very, very quickly with my son. And I just thought, I'm not ready to walk through those doors. I'm just not ready to leave the hospital. I don't want to go back to literally doing the washing up that I'd left the day before. I mean, it just seemed absolutely absurd. These absurd remnants of your old life. Yes, and I would like, though,

to have been more of a distance between my other self and my new self as a parent. And I think my partner, my husband, at the time, felt exactly the same. And I remember his driving. We were driving back from the hospital. I mean, he wouldn't have got any points on his license. He just drove so slowly, so slowly.

Because the fear for men as well of suddenly being in charge too. Absolutely. It was just a lot. It was just a lot. So, gosh, I mean, if they could bring back the lying-in hospital. And also just imagine the fantastic comfort of so many other women in a similar position. You could probably bond, couldn't you? Yes.

Yeah. I wonder whether we should start a campaign for the return of the lying-in hospital. I think we should. Let's see. I think we absolutely should. Yeah. Let's see what we can do. It's probably a slightly forlorn hope, but you never know.

Some interesting messages about books we could reread. And actually, there's a new favourite, isn't there? Because we were talking about a book earlier. Yes. I just want to mention Marie, who says, I wonder, she says, I can't help thinking that if a Catherine Cookson book was given the right press and marketing, it would be a banger. Now, Catherine Cuxon is probably very much out of favour these days,

but she used to be a mega bestseller with her novels largely set in the northeast of England about, you know, plucky women, properly suffering and battling through life's hardships and encountering rogues and wrongans and somehow emerging victorious. My nan used to love those Catherine Cookson's. Do you remember the Malon streak?

The Malon streak? Well, yes, because who was the sports presenter? Was it Dickie Davis who had a Malon streak? Yes. No, no, not Dickie Davis. Oh God, who was it? I think it might have been Dickie Davis. He was a good, he was a good presenter. It's that sort of head of hair, but with a... With a white, sort of badger streak.

Yeah, with a badger streak. Yeah. Badger men. Yeah. So the Mallon streak, I mean, is that where the hairstyle came from? I don't know. Did she have a streak? But it is interesting. What was the book? It was Dickie Davis. It was Dickie Davis. Have you ever come across Dickie Davis before, Reeve? I've never even come across a malign's tree. No.

If you not, I'll tell you what. This is a learning curve. We educate this young woman, each and every day of her life. So Dickie Davis didn't quite have Deslinem's wink, but I think he was all the better for it. Oh, I think they were both. Men of their time, but excellent broadcaster. Very much so.

Can I just say, as was Frank Boff, and you don't hear people speaking up for Frank these days. You have a little bit of trouble. But if Frank had been operating in his suspending, in modern times, Jane. You're right. Of a weekend. Nobody had a...

An island. I mean, that would be a benign thing for television presenters to be doing on the side. He'd have been embraced by all the niche communities, wouldn't he? Yes. Well, we just have gone there.

I live in Ontario, in Canada. Do you? No. I live in East West Kensington. I live in Ontario, Canada. I'm originally from Anfield in Liverpool. Oh, thank God. It is Valerie.

Coming back from a trip trip to German. she says she was sitting in Frankfurt airport and my husband had gone to duty free and he walked back to me, arm in arm with my sister-in-law from Liverpool who was returning to the UK. I couldn't believe it, what a surprise. You can meet people unexpectedly in other countries. We've got quite a few of these.

I just find it so peculiar. I mean, I know the world is quite small, but was that great line by the comedian Steve Wright. It's a small world, but I wouldn't like to paint it. Oh, he was a very funny man. He was very profound. Yeah, I miss him. I still, I still, Steve Wright?

Not the jerk, not the DJ. There was a comedian called Steve Rock. I thought he meant Steve Wright. This is the kind of thing Steve Wright would have said in a factoid. Yeah, actually it is. Right, so sorry, the other Steve Wright is still alive, is he? I'm pretty sure, yeah, yeah, he is. Yeah, he's very, very funny.

There's so much looking up for poor old Eve and her search history is mainly men of a certain age. It's got to be problematic. It probably will be. You won't get her into trouble. What kind of advert? You're going to get sent later. I'm going to apologise. I just want one more of these unexpected encounters.

Long email here from Anne. And thank you so much, Anne, for all your memories and lovely thoughts. I appreciate it. She does say that at the start of my grandmother's funeral, I was horrified to see my mother laugh and nudge my dad. It turned out that the chap playing the organ at the Crem used to play the one at their local GOMON cinema when they were courting. That was back in the day when the organ rose up onto the stage.

That's one of the things they don't do that. They banned that now. And I like this. This is just a kind of PS at the end. She says, casually, another time when working, I sneaked off to the Cap d'Auntib for a long weekend without telling anyone. Get you.

As I stepped into a beach restaurant there, a voice rang out, and it was the granddaughter of the best friend of one of my grandmother's. Busted. So I knew it wouldn't be long before my secret would get back to everybody I knew. Yeah.

That's very classy, though, to take yourself off there, isn't it? It's very classy, but God, how annoying that must be. Yeah. We've gone there for a lovely, lovely little incognito weekend. Hello! So also that's the huge problem with the socials now, isn't it? I mean, you can't just go and have a nice, you know, quiet weekend. Because you've got to tell everybody else about it anyway.

Yeah, but, you know, you're in the back of somebody else's picture or all that kind of stuff. Ridiculous. This one comes in from Fiona, who says, I was listening to Offer yesterday and felt absolutely compelled to write to share my most memorable yoga experiences. Now, Fiona is an international traveller. She went to Ibiza for a yoga retreat earlier this year. You ever thought of doing one of those holidays? No.

Sorry, dear that. It was an amazing experience. There wasn't all that much yoga, to be honest. Oh, well, in that case. There were some unforgettable moments. I decided to say yes to everything, as I'd had a pretty shitty first half of the year and wanted to make a shift.

Danny Wallace and his Yes Man book has inspired me over many, many years to just say yes to stuff that I need to shake off. So all around the yoga meditation women's circles, there were some pretty wild times, starting with osteo dance massage. What? Yep, osteo dance massage. It's like, what three words? That probably places you in a cafe somewhere to the east of Solihull City Centre,

where I was told to throw myself onto a big mat, was dragged around by my arms for a bit, then rolled on, then burp at for quite a while. Okay, no. And she paid for this. Yep, then was asked to roll on top of the therapist and ended her full body lying on me. Then on to a massage where I was asked to breathe through my vagina. Try it, says Fiona, not possible. No, I don't think it is.

I am trying it, are you? I'm not going to try to work, Jane. As I said many times yesterday, it's not radio four. I had all my friends at the allotment trying in the middle of our plighting. lot, but Defo not possible. Then onto a Thai foot massage, which really hurt, where the therapist also did a lot of burping. Burping, it's such a low-grade activity.

How can that possibly? That's just bizarre, isn't it? And just absolutely horrible as well. How much was this? This is what I really want to know. She doesn't tell us. No, I bet she doesn't. Anyway, the massage therapist then proceeded to tell me that dead people spoke tone.

Did I know someone call Mark? Someone called who, Mark? Oh, I love this. Absolutely love this. I can feel some repeat platelets coming on myself. Yes, I do, I said. Are you telling me he's dead? Very odd.

She ran away. All of this made it into one of the most memorable times I've ever had. By the way, my husband is a yoga teacher. Okay, serious now because this is great. But in a very different environment, long story short, I'm incredibly proud of him. He runs a small organization in Ukraine called Fierce Calm that supports soldiers.

who've lost limbs with their recovery and PTSD. So yoga in all its forms is definitely for men. Yes. Yes. And he would make a great idea. So we will book him at some time in the future. Well, Fiona, you're very kind at the end and say that we both brighten your day, but Blumenel love. I mean, it's emails like that that just brighten ours so much.

It's just absolutely fantastic. So just avoid the burping yoga retreats on Ibiza. I mean, apart from anything else, Jane, he's a lot of... that very salty cheese and the salty ham, quite a lot of sardines and anchories, those burps are going to be vile. What is that cheese? Is it Manchego? I like that a lot actually to be there.

But you don't want to hear from it again. No, it is slightly, it's not quite the mackerel of cheeses, but, I mean, mackerel, that's terribly good for you, but it can make its presence felt hours after you've enjoyed, stroke, endured it. Let's just bring in Catherine. A lovely email from you, Catherine. Thank you so much. It is headlined good friends and good tunes. And you just point out that you are the Catherine who has had major facial surgery for cancer. And her excellent friend, that's Catherine's description, has emailed you about me a couple of times and also accosted you in North Berwick. Yes, she did. I've seen the photographic evidence, says Catherine. She looks excited and nervous.

You both look slightly unsure. Well, yeah, but that's our permanent expression. It's a go-to look. Yeah, I mean, that's when we're looking good. Catherine, I can't begin to describe what a tough time Catherine's been through. She's been really unwell, she says, for around 14 months. She was diagnosed just two days after her 40th. In December of 2024, she had radical surgery to remove the aggressive stage four,

I hope I've pronounced this, or I'm going to pronounce it right, stage four squamous cell carcinoma in her sinus and nasal cavity. Now this surgery also took her upper jaw and teeth, nose, half my upper lip, my palate, my right cheek skin and part of my right eye socket. Now bone and skin were taken from my left arm to partly reconstruct my face and I now have titanium implants in my upper jaw and eye socket. Now I should say that Catherine has said that she was, she actually wants this information to be read out, doesn't she? because a lot of people will think, well, that's, you know, that just sounds like something I couldn't bear. But she wants us to know. She wants us to know what she's been through. And why shouldn't she want us to know? She says she then had radiotherapy and chemo. Her voice is back. My hearing comes and goes. She says,

I was left with an open cavity on my face and no palate. And they've only been corrected this December. I've had a year of not being able to go out, struggling to speak and not able to eat. and seeing very few people has been extremely hard. Well, Catherine... Well, also, because you've got a little one. Well, this is where... Catherine, neither of us can believe what you've been through. We send you so much love.

And what an excellent friend you have in Laura, which you acknowledge yourself. Her little boy, Charlie, turns two at the end of this month. A toddler's hard work at the best of time, she says, this has felt like doing the Krypton factor on roller skates with your arms tied behind your back. She does have a husband, but Charlie wants to play with Mummy all the time.

It's challenging. I wouldn't swap him or time with him for anything. It's very hard to know what to say that can possibly be of any comfort to Catherine except to say, we think you're brave, we think you're bold, and thank you for sharing. But also I'm glad you're alive because I would have thought that a cancer like that

maybe in times past might not have been considered a cancer that you could come back from. I think there is a bit, in it about the rare cancers bill going through Parliament, which, you know, forgive us, I hadn't heard of that at all, and I think journalistically it might be worth having a bit of a prod about that. And we could better understand what it's telling us about the system for rare cancers.

Well, Laura has been such a good friend. She's been lobbying, and her local MP, Dr Scott Arthur, has been pushing the rare cancers bill through Parliament, and Laura has made sure it was shared far and wide. On the day it went before the Commons. and she had the live stream on at work, even knowing she's thinking about me and others like me makes me feel less alone.

Right. I mean, what a fantastic friend. What a fantastic woman you are, Catherine, and just so much love from us both to you, to your husband and to little Charlie as well. Yeah, keep in touch. Yeah, please do. We are heading up to North Berwick, we hope,

for Fringe by the Sea next summer. Yes. So if you feel that you can come along, it would be absolutely lovely to meet your own. in person. And I mean, let's just extend the welcome, Jane. Let's extend the hand of friendship. Anybody can come. Locker 53 is just, I hope that this becomes a really firm feature in the podcast for a while. So this is odd things found in odd places. And Lucien comes in with this.

What a classy email this is, by the way. You may remember me as the candy connoisseur who recommended almond joy and mounds during the great bounty crisis. Oddly, this email is also about candy, where candy shouldn't be. In 1996, on a big city adventure with friends, I bought a giant bag of jelly beans. They cost a teenage fortune, given that they were the jelly belly brand. Tragically, on the way home, I lost control of the bag, and they spilled beneath my driver's seat. Did I laugh, cry, employ an industrial vacuum? No. I did none of those things. Instead, I reached deafly under the seat, plucked one from the top of the mound, and proudly consumed it. This strategy continued for weeks, much to the astonishment of all.

If you are ever in the mood to spill jelly beans under your seat, I highly recommend Jelly Belly's popcorn flavour. Don't make that face. They're really very good. I eat off plates now, sincerely, Lucian. Lucian, thank you. Sounds disgusting, doesn't it? Oh, it sounds great. I mean, who hasn't in time? of crisis or extreme boredom stuck in a traffic jam,

eaten one of the rogue peanuts that's rolling around somewhere in the driver's pocket in the door. Come on, we've all done that, haven't we? Oh, yes. Well, I mean, we've all picked things off the kitchen floor, haven't we? Just giving it a quick... But I always think in a car, there just can't be very many germs that have got in. It'd be all right, give it a wipe down.

And off we go. We'll just rub it down your jumper. Yeah, something like that. But the jellybellies, they're by far the best brand of jelly beans, aren't they? I'm just not keen on them at all, actually. Oh, God. Pavlova. Jelly beans.

Don't like biscuits. Don't go to travel. None of those things. I do like Doris, though. She says, I have, like many others, read and tried many self-help books since they became the thing. Was it in the early 70s? She says, yeah, probably 60s, 70s, I would imagine.

Whilst marrying four times, widowed once, working as an accountant in engineering and the motor trade, as well as not having children, just paint a target on me, says Doris. These books seem to blame me for just not being whatever was needed. Now, at nearly 75, I'm adopting the can't-be-assed version, which you both seem to like. Yeah, I do exercise to keep the joints going, but only where I can have a laugh. I also remember as a child thinking that when I was an adult, I could wake up when I liked and go to bed when actually tired.

So I try both, much to the annoyance of my... fourth husband. I still disappoint the world at large, and long may it continue. Well, Doris, I mean, you have got it going on. Well done, you. You're almost at the full set, Doris. I admire you. Four husbands.

Yeah. Good for you, girl. What was the thing you look forward to being able to do as an adult when you were a child? Oh, I really properly wanted to be master of my own time. Oh. That was my big thing. I just wanted to get

when I wanted and I wanted to go to bed when I wanted. And I just remember thinking it would be so magical. Every other thing would fall into place when I could just choose when I wanted to do things. And I think part of that, I mean part of that is just the everyday experience of every child going to school and being timetabled and stuff. It feels very regimented. But also we had a long flog to school.

So we had a school run because when I was young, we were living in a rural community. So we just had to be on time for everything. So that rush in the mornings. I hated it. What about you? I just wanted to eat as many glass-ed cherries as I could. I remember thinking as a really young child

because I used to steal them, I knew where they were. I used to think, when I've got my own house, I can buy glass-o cherries and eat them as often as I like. And do you? No, I don't like them anymore. Oh.

Gosh, another one on the list. I'm just crossing off all of these things and the delicatessen I can no longer choose for you for your upcoming birthday right shall we punt out then what we might consider

as our next book club choice just mention the book because I think we're onto something A town called Alice by Neville Schute Now it did come in on an email didn't it? It did. Which I'm trying to find it either

I do apologise but we both went when we saw that email because it's definitely a book I've read I don't know how Neville Schutt has aged as a writer and we are better off not knowing no exactly I'm not going to

if we're going to choose that because I think that's going to be the joy of it isn't it to read something that does make us go oh blimey I never didn't notice that at the time yeah I didn't feel that dent when I was reading it in 1987 or whenever it was and do you know I think it might be one of our

lovely correspondence in Melbourne I'll give me it a little bit of an accent there just to help it along, it's why. A town called Alice by Neville Shute. Here we are, I've got it. Brilliant. It's Chris. I love a reread, she says.

One of my favourites is a town like Alice by Neville Shute. Yeah. Did I say a town called Alice? A town like Alice. Is it a town like Alice? Yeah. And the jam song was called A Town Like Malice. And I've just confused the two.

Well, why not? Why not? Should we just go for it? I think give it one more night. Give people a chance. Give people a chance, Steve. Yes, no, I agree actually. Okay, let's give people a chance. Because actually Rebecca by Daphne DiMori is still in the running in my head. Okay. Yes, okay.

Well, we've got two re-weed favourites in our minds at the moment. Yes, give the good people of the hive the opportunity to get involved. I mean, this is where democracy has failed us over the years, giving it to the people to make a decision. Oh, that's happened. I know. One bad thing after another. Yeah.

I wouldn't want it any other way, though, because actually... No, I wouldn't either. You look at Iran, you say, give me democracy. Exactly. Right, tell you what, shall we just sit up straight and should we do a little bit of me, me, me, me, me,

because we welcome to our ranks as Thespian. Well, we do. We've got a great guest. It's only Sir Derek Jacoby. And by way of preparation for this interview, Eve gave me notification that there was a good Spotify podcast to listen to in which the great Sir Derek is in conversation

with the great Miriam Margulies. Oh my God. About the craft of acting. How long is that podcast and would you recommend it? It's actually, look, if you are would be Thespian or you have somebody in your family

who's interested in pursuing it, I would absolutely recommend this. It was supposed to be a conversation I think a kind of even conversation between the two great talents. But I'm going to say it for you. Just Derek not getting a word in. We did hear quite a bit about Miriam. But look, we both love her as well.

Oh, no, that's the joy of Miriam, though. Do you what, I mean, when you book Miriam, you book Miriam. Oh, you get Miriam. And she is brilliant. But actually, his little... So too. His little Derek. Sir Derek.

One of Britain's greatest actors. He's currently on tour in what's... being described as an in-conversation show featuring his husband Richard Clifford who is an actor and a producer in his own right Sir Derek, Richard, hello, good afternoon, how are you both? Good afternoon to you. Hello, hello. Very well. Lovely, lovely to hear. Now, can we start with your

illustrious career, Sir Derek, if you don't mind? I have just read a review of the show you did with Richard in Perth and they loved it there. The reviewer said if Sir Derek had tagged on another half hour, I wouldn't have battered an eyelid. It was an incisive and captivating insight into an icon of stage and screen. Well, that suggests you're both getting something right. Do you remember Perth? Was it a particularly good night?

Yes, and I think I wrote that. Did you? Yes. So what form does the show take, Derek? Question and answer, basically. you know, I'm quizzed about my life in art. But by your husband, crucially. Yeah, and as much as I can remember, I'm about.

Right. Is he a particularly sensitive and incisive interviewer? Yeah, he's very good. He's very good, yes. And that is essential because I'm neither incisive nor sensitive. Okay, that's also reassuring. Richard, do you find it in any way awkward to be interviewing Derek? Or do you feel that you can ask him anything?

Well, we have been together now for 47 years. Yes. I sort of know the incident. I mean, I ask him a question and he gives a nasty turn. And then he might say something and I will say to him, I don't remember that. Occasionally, you know, we get some rather wonderful, not secrets, for things that we've never discussed before.

Yeah, and I tend to make things up. Oh, great. Okay, that's my kind of show. Yeah. Could I, I mean, might I suggest that you might occasionally drop a name or two, Derek? Oh, I'd drop buckets of them. Who are they? Who do you talk about? Oh, Sir Lawrence, Olivia, Maggie Smith, Albert Finney.

These are all the people I was at the national with. Ian McElland. Ian McKellon. Judeed, Dunn. Oh, yeah. Stone, Fly, Wright. They're all there. Right.

I mean, it does sound as though people who go along will get their money's worth. When you look at Wikipedia, as I'm sure you both do incessantly, it's very hard to pick a career highlight of yours, Derek. I mean, yes, there's I Claudius, which a lot of people remember, of course. Gladiator, you were in both the films. So many people, and I'm one of them, loved Last Tango in Halifax, and you narrate in the Night Garden. What do you pick?

what is your career highlight? When I played Hamlet at the Edinburgh Festival as a schoolboy. Yeah, and how did that happen? Through our English master, Bobby Brown, and he got us up to the festival, on the fringe of the Edinburgh Festival. And I was, what, 17, and play Hamlet up there, and all the notable people,

whom at the time I didn't realise, came to see it. And so when I left school and university and I went begging for jobs, I got replies because people had seen me playing Hamilton, Edinburgh. I mean, it does seem quite remarkable. This man was clearly an exceptional teacher. Bobby was extraordinary. He was an English teacher. He was a great fan of the theatre. He produced the school plays. And he really was my conduit from school to university to the business.

So, I had imagined, I must admit, in my ignorance, that you'd grown up in rather sort of highfalutin circumstances. But you hadn't. You're from Leyton Stone. Just tell us a little bit about your family and your childhood. I'm sure there are certain highfaluton areas of Leighton Stee. Oh yes, no, there are. People will be looking on Wrightmoves as we speak. I wasn't part of that. No. My family worked in the Waltham Stowe High Street, both my mum and dad. And my background was very ordinary.

I went to the local primary school. I went to the local grammar school. And then I got him to, the, what was it called? Wait so long ago. The pool. The pool. I got into the pool when I was sitting in the examination for university.

Right. So I had an interview at Cambridge and they accepted me. And I spent three years at St John's College, Cambridge, and acted all the time. I studied history. They killed me. I studied history. Did you get a degree? I did I got what was called a two-two.

Yes, well, you're in good company. And that was three, straight down the middle. Right, okay, excellent. And I mean, your parents, were they bewildered by your talent? Did they take, do they relish it? They loved it. They encouraged it. I do think they totally understood it.

I mean, they would, they would gently fight over where I got it from, but there was my father of my mother. Well, who was my father. do you think you got it from or is it just one of those things? I was just born. I came out acting and that that was it. They had to take it on board, which they did. They were the most supportive, wonderful parents, anyone could ever have wished to have. Oh, that's lovely because you don't always hear that. I mean, I did read that your dad ran a sweet shop. I mean, is there anything more wonderful than growing up as the child of a sweet shop proprietor. Was that true?

He did indeed in Chingford, yes, and I used to go up to see him up there, of course, and help myself to some of the sweets. And as soon as a customer would come in, I'd sort of duck behind the counter and call out, Dad, I've got a customer, because I was terrified of having to serve and all that. But I loved going to start. see him up there. Yes, because I had the run of the shop. Seriously, you were allowed to stick your hand in the humbugs.

Oh, you bet. I wouldn't have gone otherwise. No. I'm just thinking of some of the great sweets of my childhood. Those bright yellow sherbet balls. I mean, they were just fantastic. What were they got? Lemon bomb bombs.

Lemon bomb bombs. Did your dad sell them? Yes, and I ate things on sticks. Drumsticks. But you could suck. Yes. Yeah. It was a wonderful world. If anyone's slightly younger than any of us listening,

honestly, you've missed out. It was great back then. It really was. What was Cambridge like? I mean, because the footlights, I always assume everybody was in the footlights. Were you? No, I wasn't in the footlights.

The footlights was comedy. Most of it, stand-up comedy and sketches and things. No, I wasn't in the footlights. I was in the ADC. the amateur dramatic club and I was in the Marlowe company at the Arts Theatre, the Marlowe company. That was by invitation if you were seen in in, student companies, in and around Cambridge.

The Marlowe came knocking at some point, hopefully, and invited you to be in one of the big Marlowe productions. So it doesn't sound from what you've been saying that you, you, you struggled as an actor. Your talent was obvious fairly early on, and you started getting roles, what, straight from university? You're talking to the luckiest actor ever.

Well, you're not without talent. Well, hopefully, no, I fulfilled the opportunities I was given, but it's those opportunities that are so vital. You can be the most talented actor in the world, but if nobody asks you to act, it's a bit wasted. But I was asked on several occasions. And some of them were important occasions.

And luck was with me. Richard, is Derek as humble as he sounds? Yes, actually he is. I had to disappoint. Right, I was just checking. Humble and boring. Oh, I never stopped talking. He absolutely is.

He has credited his chances in life to luck. You know, some people have to constantly seeking things out. Derek happened. Sir Lawrence Olivier went to see him in a play at Birmingham and invited him to join Chichester Theatre, which then became the first National Theatre in Great Britain. Yeah. All the way.

Five years, yeah. We've got some messages for you. Victoria says Derek Jacoby is superb in I-Claudius and hundreds of other things. Although Victoria draws our attention to the fact that Ronnie Barker was a good straight actor. He was brilliant as Churchill's butler in the gathering storm. Yes, I just couldn't believe that Ronnie Barker was second in line to get the I-Claudius role and you were third, Derek. That's unbelievable. Yes, Ronnie Barca was second.

first was Charlton Heston. And he felt he could say no to the BBC. Yes, yes. And so did the other one. So I've done a BBC series called Man of Straw with a wonderful director called Herbie Wise, who was down to direct like Claudius. And Herbie said, what about Derek?

And they said, Derek who? Herbie explained about Man of Straw, and they said, well, let's talk to him. And they did. And thank God, whenever I said, got me passed. And they said, okay, I think they phrased it, we'll take a chance. Were you worried? I am constantly. Well, I think you should probably stop worrying now because I think, I think, I'm.

I think you've stated your claim. You've been knighted, for heaven's sake. Steve says, Derek's performance in Last Tango in Halifax was sublime. I know he's done a load more than this. But that portrayal of Alan Buttershaw had me laughing and crying in equal measure. Please, sir, is there any chance of more tangoing? That's from Steve, who's a gardener in Maidenhead. Oh, I loved Last Tango.

It came out truly out of left field. with the oney, wonderful Annie, read. And it was just magic. And the two of us, we didn't know each other before it. And we just clicked. We adored each other, trusted each other. And it was magic to do. The texts were wonderful.

The stories were good. The relationship worked. and we got paid. Yes. Yeah, that's true. Jacqueline says that when you did the jive in last tango in Halifax with Anne Reid, it was just incredible. So many people, so many fond memories of that programme. I think we've established there can't be any more, can there?

No, I can't. I'm too old to jive. Okay, you won't be jiving. Can we talk Shakespeare? Because I know, I think you've played Hamlet. Well, you tell me how many times have you. given us your Hamlet? It's hundreds. It's hundreds.

Including, I'm very proud and pleased to say, at Elsinore. Now, yes, just explain the significance of that. Well, Elsinore is in Denmark. It's where the play of Hamlet is set by Mr. Shakespeare or whoever. And it is the most magical place. and we played in the castle, in the court of the castle. And it was magic. Yes, it was extraordinary to be Hamlet, talking about Elsinom.

And I'd just be there. And we had the ghost walking along the ramparts of the castle. It was magical. Wow, that's incredible. So evocative. I imagine you have seen. Hamnut or can you tell me have you have you both seen it? Oh yes I saw it last week yes okay what's your verdict

wonderful wonderful it did no no it is it's lovely and I have to say Jesse Buckley who we both work with yeah a couple of times is a joy and Derek's work with Paul Mascall who is also joy it looks beautiful it's it it's a stunning it's a stunning a story about a couple whose desperate loss of a child really affects us all. It's the every man of child grief, really. Yes. Do you go see it. It's magic. Magic. Okay, well, that's unequivocal. But of course, Derek, I believe that you don't think that this man, William Shakespeare, wrote these plays anyway. No. I don't. No.

Well, who did? Earl of Oxford. Right. And this puts you in the Oxfordian category. It puts me in the madhouse, actually. Well, I was going to say, is it a minority view? I think it must be. I think it must be, yes.

Well, why do you believe it so strongly? Because I cannot believe very, very strongly, but the man from Stratford had the ability, the education, the knowledge to have had anything to do with writing those plays. And I think Oxford had all the qualifications necessary. I'm not saying that that is absolute proof, but if we're talking about the ability and the qualifications of either of those candidates, then you have to go for Oxford. Richard, what do you think? Well, I'm afraid I agree.

I happen to be chairman of the De Beers Society. The reason I feel it is the case is because every direction takes us towards someone who had immense knowledge, not only of theatre, of Greek, of Latin, of the law, of French, of Italian, new Italy, very incredibly well. and it's something that you could not just get out of books or quite frankly listening to sailors at the mermaid tavern. You would need a whole lot more. And I could go on for hours, but I'm not going to

because people just poo-poo it and say, how dare you and you're being snobbish. But I'm not being snobbish. It just happens to be what I think, and it would be wonderful if we actually found out, the more we find out, where in the canon is the man from Stratford? Well, I tell you who won't be pleased, and that's the tourist office in Stratford upon Avon, as they hear this.

In a hundred years' time, are we going to be talking about the Royal DeVir Company? And will it be based in Oxford? I don't know where DeVir was from, the Earl of Oxford. I'm going to suggest Oxford. It would be right. It would be nearer the truth than the Stratford connection. I must admit, I didn't realize that you felt as strong, or that so many people feel a strong. strongly about this. I did a tiny bit of research and there do appear to be quite a number of

people who think you're both right. I think we're, what are they seeing, kicking against the pricks or something? Pressing against. Yeah, something like that. Pressing against an open door? It's a hiding to nothing. It is. But people emotionally are attached to, they use the word belief, belief all the time. And when you say, I believe, credo, credo doesn't mean it is a right. It just means you believe it to be right. Yeah. Okay. I know Derek, have you given up theatre completely? I know this in conversation event there happening in theatre. Yes, I have. So you'll never tread the boards again in a play. I wouldn't say that, I wouldn't say that because there are methods these days, methods that I have used. But with television, film, with the

the omnipresence of cameras, I would rather go down that route than the pressure of going onto a stage. It ain't easy. And eight times a week. Eight times a week. Acting twice on Thursdays and Saturdays. It ain't easy stage acting.

It's bloody hard. It really is. And I adored it for, so many years. But there comes a time when you have to, you can't give the audience what they deserve. So stop it, give it up. It was wonderful. It gave you a life and a world that is indescribable. But there came a time when I had to let go. It wasn't easy. My goodness, I didn't want to let go, but you have to when you can't do it anymore. Did you say that you two had been together for 47 years?

Yep. What's the secret? Because actors having relationships with actors doesn't always work, does it? When couples are asked that, they always say, give and take. Yeah, give us the truth. It might give and take. Give us the truth. I tell you, I give it it.

One thing is that we worked away from each other. That's brilliant. What we have, which is a little secret, is we have spoken to each other every day. Yeah. Over 14. Whenever we are. Unless we're actually in the air and we can't get to a phone.

Or in prison. Well, I don't think, well, you've yet to be arrested, Sir Derek. And let's hope it stays that way. We will make a film in. prison, though. Yes, we have filmed in prison. Yeah. In Ponsmore in Cape Towns, though. Right. Oh, gosh. Okay. Well, I think people will have had a flavour from that conversation, and I suspect they'll be dashing off to get tickets. Sir Derek Jacoby, a joy to hear from him, and if you'd like to hear more, then you can seek him out. He's on tour for the next couple of weeks, actually, going to some interesting places, and he's in conversation

with his husband, Richard Clifford. That's one for the, well, one for people. just want an evening of erudite conversation. When you've listened to off-air, you might just want a little more. These evenings were the hugely popular, aren't they? They are. And I actually think it's one of those, we don't celebrate it enough that the spoken word can still get people leaving their house and going out sitting in a theatre. It's a lovely resurgence of a communal experience, isn't it? It's not all, people aren't all just watching TikTok. And actually, it's a good thing to throw into the mix when people are weeping at the demise of the, Kinema

that actually there's been a huge surge in popularity for evenings of people chatting and you just think well maybe have you made your films better a little bit shorter

with more interesting things in it then we wouldn't have this imbalance I leave that with you everybody I've not been asked to the

Oscar ceremony of you no I'm not not this year no no ok-dokey Jane and Fiat

times dot radio chucking your suggestions for books that we could reread not huge things like Anna Karen please, just things a little bit shorter and maybe a little bit more modern. Would that be

okay to say? Well, yeah, relatively contemporary, possibly with a hint of romance. Okay. Goodbye. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.