Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Hedgehog on hedgehog action

Episode Date: February 27, 2023

Jane and Fi enjoy a slice of cake for Fi's birthday.They're joined by Ben Bailey Smith (AKA Doc Brown) to discuss his podcast, Shrink the Box, which is out now.They also hear from Professor Dawn Scott, who's got some surprising research on violent hedgehogs. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Kea BrowningTimes Radio Producer: Kate LeePodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A tiny piece of that, I've got the appetite of a bird. A bird? Well, I know that's not true because I've seen you polishing off substantial quantities of canteen lunch. So this is a cake very kindly bought by colleagues at Times Radio. And it's a red velvet cake, which I'm very fond of, but you don't really like. Well, perhaps I've just never had a good one. A bit like Asma Mir's never had a good turnip.

Yep. What a terrible challenge that's now set to Asma to find a turnip that she likes. She's a very good cook, isn't she? She had a YouTube channel cooking curries for a while, I think. They're very good. Right, so today's Monday. I says actually nice Okay, and it is your birthday

but you don't do birthdays so we'll move on My birthday's in June which is much more important and it's also a beautiful time of year whereas you unfortunately All of your good birthday wishes, dear listeners just pretend she's not here for a while I had a very lovely weekend

only slightly ruined by well I had a very lovely weekend. Only slightly ruined by... Well, I had showbiz visitors on the Sunday night. Yes, oh yes, go on. Because Claire Balding and Alice Arnold came round because they wanted to interview Nancy. Who's a dog. Yeah. Claire's writing a book all about the dogs of this country

and why people choose them. So she wanted to interview Nancy and have a quick chat with me. So we did once around London Fields and then came back, had a lovely meal cooked by my son, actually. He did himself proud. They bought a bottle of Kylie wine round with Jane. Clearly they're just recycling a freebie they've had. I like to think that maybe they're friends with Kylie, so they've got access to it. No, they're recycling a freebie they've had. I like to think that maybe they're friends with Kylie,

so they've got access to it. No, they're recycling a freebie. You think? Yeah. Anyway, they brought the Kylie wine round. Nobody drunk very much wine because it's a Sunday night. Who would want to do that? And I proceeded to have just a horrible migraine, actually.

No other way of putting it in the middle of the night. I had to get up and be sick. My first thought wasn't, I won't, this will ruin my birthday and I won't be able to go to work tomorrow and that will upset my dear colleague Jane Garvey and throw a spanner in the works on an important political day. My first thought was, what if it's food poisoning

and I've killed Claire Balding? Oh well, actually that should be exactly where your thoughts strayed, to be honest. That's like harming a member of the royal family. Well have you checked? No, but I think it would be news if Claire was unwell. It probably would, actually. I got absolutely fine, so it's just the usual.

Are you feeling a bit better now? Yeah, I am. I'm eating cake, so I'm totally fine. But they are... I don't know. I mean, I'm trying to work out... I get headaches, certainly, but I don't know whether I get migraines. How do you distinguish between... You'd know if you had a migraine well I think no migraine migraine and I think everybody's a different so I just get this very weird nausea and a headache and it goes straight up one side of my face it just makes me feel really sick actually more than a painful

headache but I'm very lucky because I don't get them very often at all. And I can kind of tell what brings them on. Pink wine from a talented Australian singer certainly doesn't help, if I can leave that one there. And very, very bright lights. So headlights, those new LED lights that are on cars now, instead of the old-fashioned yellow ones that we had in the 1970s that admittedly didn't work. But those very bright lights on cars, I find it very difficult to drive at night now. This isn't

to pity me, you know, play for sympathy here at all. But I think migraines, migraines are still one of the most misunderstood areas of medicine, actually. But if you get a headache that is longer than it should be and and you can't get rid of with normal pain relief or just a quick lie down or some glasses of water then maybe you do jane then you should get them looked at no it's funny i was talking to the other day oh my pilates teacher um he says you know he just doesn't get headaches he doesn't get headaches and that never had a headache he seemed to imply that he'd, I mean, I guess it would be unfortunate, it would be very unfortunate if your Pilates teacher was riddled with aches and pains.

It just wouldn't be great for the business, would it? But I believed him. But I really think there's something that distinguishes the part of the population that, quotes, never gets headaches. Because I'm not saying they don't exist, these people, they clearly clearly do and those of us who get them at least sort of once or twice a week also i think with i don't know whether it's the same with you but i'm my posture is terrible my shoulders are hunched all the tension what i haven't wanted to say but yeah your neck and shoulders and then we're in a working environment where we're sort of gawping at screens and there are funny lights all the time so So it doesn't help, does it? But they can be so debilitating.

Really nasty. Yeah. Anyway, I went on Saturday to see, I haven't done this for absolutely ages, to see a show in London. A show! Exactly. She went to see a show!

Except it wasn't one of those. Oh. Although it nearly was. So it was noises off. Have you ever seen that? No. You look a little bit disapproving. We needed, because I was going with friends who, well, let's put it this way, we didn't need to see anything

that was going to make us think too much or upset anybody. We needed to see... You've got to come round to my house. If only we'd been invited. We needed to see something bordering on sort of farcical comedy and it's Noises Office by, I think it's Michael Frayne, I should know this, and it's about a really shocking theatrical troupe

and their travails on a tour of the provinces. Ashton-under-Lyme, Stockton-on-Tees, these are the places that I mentioned. And you know these places as well as I do because we've been in theatres all over the length and breadth of Britain and there are some, it's a very, it's a sort of warren isn't it of peculiar

little nooks and crannies and quite dilapidated dressing rooms in some of these regional theatres where you really, you can whiff the ghosts of crushed egos and ruined careers and shattered dreams. Well, I was going to say all fulfilled dreams. And that is the difference between us.

It is as well. But anyway, I unhesitatingly recommend this current production of Noises Off, which is on in the West End in London at the moment. It's so slick and so brilliantly done. And Felicity Kendall is in it. She's the sort of big name. And so is Matthew Kelly. Remember Matthew Kelly?

He's in it too. Sorry, can I just ask, how old is Felicity Kendall now? I don't think I would be the only person who left the theatre and the first thing I did was Google, how old is Felicity Kendall? She's 76. Wow. But she's astonishing. She's so good.

So she's doing that every night with a matinee on Saturdays. Exactly. And I think on Wednesdays as well. And it's a big old, very physical production and people, I'm sure other people will have seen it because it's been around for I think it's 30 years old. And it's very, very

broad comedy. I mean, men's trousers falling off and that sort of thing. But God, it's funny. And it's choreographed superbly. How they do that and how they begin to start practising it, I do not know. But anyway, there you go. I'm not very good at theatrical reviews or reviews generally,

but go to Noises Off if you get the chance. It's very funny. Does that do the job? It does do the job. Yes, okay, excellent. I'll pop it in between my reading of Plato. Yes, which I also recommend, by the way. And my binge listen of In Our Time.

Oh, God. Are you still ploughing your way through Mel B's back catalogue? No, I've never ploughed my way through In Our Time because I've always found it just bewildering. I think it's like, it is radio broccoli. It is there on the plate, you think you should, and two mouthfuls in, you just think, no, I'm not going to, I'll have an apple later.

So, no, I'm not, I'm not just not very good at sticking with a whole in our time. I did listen to one once all the way through. Did you? It's about carbon. Oh, yes. Well, can you not elucidate? No.

Have you got a supplementary question? I haven't. So there we go. I was groping around there thinking. But don't worry, because I don't think Melvin was ever an enormous fan of my work either. And I know lots of people like it, and I don't want to laugh at the...

We don't have to balance things out anymore. Forget it. I thought it was really boring. Let's just say it. It's just the format. Because quite often it just works its way through a topic chronologically, which is just... That's what it is.

Yeah. Well, it's been and gone now. We don't have to concern ourselves with such thoughts. That's very true. And also, we've got hedgehog on hedgehog action coming up. That's the kind of audio that lots of people want to pop inside their ears. Today in news terms, it was a big day because of the Brexit deal or the Stormont break and the Windsor framework.

So a lot going on. But actually it was also the day that the death of Betty Boothroyd was announced and we were talking about her a little bit on the radio programme. But just one of those names that sort of bestrode the national political landscape for quite some time and just a truly remarkable life story. She originally got a place at Dewsbury's Commercial College in Yorkshire because she failed the 11 plus. Her father was really chuffed with that because it meant that

she would learn shorthand and typing and could then go on to get a pensionable job with the council. But Betty Boothroyd had other ideas. She wanted to be a department store window dresser, but she also liked dancing. And she ended up the speaker, the first woman speaker, only woman speaker so far at the House of Commons. So just a fantastic life story. And there's a really interesting obituary of Betty Boothroyd in The Times newspaper tomorrow.

That'll be Tuesday. And then, of course, online at the moment. But I just love sometimes reading somebody's entire life story and you realise where they started, where they ended up. I just think it's great. Also, it's quite a measure of how far we've come because she found it incredibly difficult to get selected, didn't she? She had so many struggles along the way. Because four or five constituencies said no. Well, she's a lady.

Yep. And just wasn't good enough in those days. But that has changed, hasn't it? Well, if you ask me, Fee, women are getting completely above themselves. I mean, everywhere I turn, there's a woman. Some of them are on the front bench. What? Yeah, I know.

You would have made an indomitable speaker. I don't think I'm quite cut from the same indomitable Yorkshire cloth as Betty Boothroyd. Oh, you would have enjoyed being in control. Oh, right, I would have been good. Yes. I'd have given it a whirl. Do you think that maybe there's a little kind of job share

that you'll be able to do in future? With Lindsay? Yes, Lindsay Hoyle. Maybe we could all apply to be speaker for a day. That'd be quite good fun, actually. I'd quite like to see other people doing that job. I think Lindsay Hoyle, I do immediately think, I didn't go to school with anybody called Lindsay Doyle,

but I so easily could have done. I know his name's not Doyle, it's Hoyle. You know what I mean? Lindsay Doyle, just as a name from my adolescence. No, I've never thought that. No? Okay. When I've looked at the Speaker of the House of Commons, I thought you're doing a good job.

No, no. For some reason, that's why I was there. Okay. Let's go to email corner. Okay, let's go to email corner. So this one comes in from Olivia in Brisbane, and it's a lovely one. We've touched on this topic a little bit before,

but there's no harm in returning to it at all. An email apropos of nothing related to your recent pods, just more an opportunity to share how I'm feeling, says Olivia. in returning to it at all. An email apropos of nothing related to your recent pods, just more an opportunity to share how I'm feeling, says Olivia. I attended a wedding the weekend just gone and it was one of the most beautiful things I've ever been witness to. The brides are two of my most favourite people in the world

and the day was very special. Despite the genuine happiness I feel for my friends, I found that when I arrived home after the weekend, I had an overwhelming feeling of loneliness for myself. I've been single for a while and have never been in a long-term relationship. I'm 30, so of course I don't voice this out loud to friends and family because it only ever elicits responses like, you're so young, don't worry, you'll find someone when you least expect it. And while I appreciate these sentiments,

appreciate and hate them, they don't actually help when you're the person feeling this way. While I'm happy and have a wonderful circle of friends and family, I want romantic love in my life as well. I know my value as a person isn't tied up in whether or not I'm partnered. However, I am aware that for some people, romantic love never comes along. And as much as I hate to say it, I don't want that to happen to me. Anyway, you may or may not see this. We see all the emails. But I feel better for having written it out into the ether. Well, Olivia, first of all, I would say what a completely normal feeling to have. Utterly normal. coming back from a wedding if you are hoping at one stage to enjoy a beautiful loving relationship

celebrated by all your friends yourself of course you go back home and think why isn't this happening to me and I don't think it makes you selfish at all I just think it makes you human actually it's really relatable, Olivia. So don't worry about that. And don't be hard on yourself, because that's absolutely not what you deserve. I do find it's really irritating. You'll find someone when you least expect it,

because Olivia is probably least expecting it now. And she hasn't so far found somebody. Yeah, but also statistically, sister. Yes. By 2040, I think 40% of babies born in the uk will be born to people who met online so that's not when you least expect it i think 40 are you saying that in order to achieve love you need to actually actively get off your ass and do something about it well i'm saying that it's not that you know oh you might just bump into somebody in sainsbury's it's people

who've gone looking for love because now you can say, I'm lonely, I'd like to be with somebody and you join a dating app where everybody else on the receiving end is going, well, I'd like to meet you too. You're absolutely right. It certainly broadens the market. And I wonder what's happened to bumping into someone. Did it used to happen or have we kidded ourselves that that was how people met? I think, well, of course course there'd still be lovely stories

of serendipity and all of that and that's absolutely wonderful but I just don't think it's the majority but also before dating apps there were just there were well established recognised places where you went to meet people back before our

time or possibly before my time, well, in your time. Tea dancers. Yes, there would have been tea dancers. There would have been Kayleys, if you were in Scotland, and in the drawing rooms of George and England. Oh, Olivia, I really feel for you. And it can be murderous, because people, I totally get what she says what she says she really appreciates and hates people saying these platitudinous things

to her so i'd say olivia maybe just have a response so when someone says don't worry you'll find someone when you least expect it you should just say well that seems a bit unlikely do you have any more practical suggestions like do you do you know any single... Do you know anyone? Any single friends who are really, you know, who are great, who you'd actually think would like me and I'd like them? Much more important. Yeah, you're right, actually. That would be something Olivia could do. There is something about coming back from a wedding, actually,

that can be... Not that I've been to a wedding in living memory, but it can discombobulate you, actually more than discombobulate you. And also, in fact, even if you're in a partnership or you're married, sometimes attending something like that can make you reassess your current situation in any number of ways. I would say the same, to be fair, about going to, I'm not comparing the two, but about going to a funeral. Because that can, you come home and you just think, oh, even if in the greatest of... And there are some wonderful funerals which truly celebrate long lives well lived.

But even so, you do come back and you think about your own place in the world a little bit, don't you? It's natural. So, Olivia, chill your beans. Is Brisbane a big place? It is, isn't it? I believe so, yes. There'll be somebody out there. Every pan has a lid and other platitudes...

Now you're doing it. So I think, in fact, you should be thinking, do I know anybody in Brisbane, Australia, who Olivia would like to meet? Right. That's what everyone listening to this podcast should put their mind to. Yes.

Finding love for Olivia. That is on our very long list, but it's on our list. It's a list of things to do. Because Olivia is clearly a person of discernment and taste because she's listening to this. And let's live vicariously through her life life jane i don't have any option it's jade and fee at times dot radio honestly olivia take care of yourself everything will be fine another platitude i've just squeezed in there stop it um right uh louise says wandered off into a thought experiment after your discussion on Kate Forbes's comments.

Now, this is the SNP leadership candidate, Kate Forbes. I thought of a situation in which a man running for leadership stated that his personal religious beliefs mean that his family believes women should stay at home with the children when they're young. I then imagined this man assuring us that this is entirely only his personal belief meant for his own family and that it doesn't impact his ability in Parliament. Would I trust him not to pass laws making it harder for women with children to work? Hmm, possibly, probably not. Would I trust him to pass laws that help women in the workplace, such as shared parental leave? I absolutely would not.

Is that a reasonable analogy for what Kate Forbes has said, i.e. she doesn't believe in equal marriage for gay people, but we're expected to trust that she won't act to create laws that make it harder for gay people to get married. This may well be the case, but equally, she's unlikely to vote for any laws that uphold such equality if tested. Well, I guess we don't know whether that's the case, Louise, that she is unlikely to vote for any laws

that uphold such equality if tested, because she has said that she fully supports the current law whilst saying herself that she wouldn't have voted for it. It's a grey area, I've got to say. I think it's an interesting point you raise, Louise. Yeah, so those last two statements from her don't add up though, do they? Because if she's saying that she wouldn't have

voted for it if she had been in that position of power at the time but she respects the decisions that were made, that you know, it would have been a different decision if lots of people like her had voted against it. So think i know i

remember exactly the discussion that that came out of and i think it's um i think it was something that i said actually just about the fact that you you know you you might get scientists who work at their science benches during the week uh who you would then find in churches or synagogues or temples or wherever at the weekend, and the two aren't always incompatible. But I think when it comes to politics, that's the nugget, isn't it, of incompatibility? Yeah. It's really, really difficult. I think this SNP leadership contest is really interesting.

It's fascinating. Kate Forbes, everybody, some political experts were saying that her beliefs and her very public beliefs, which she stuck by, would ruin her chances. And in fact, she's still the favourite. So what do we know? And what do they know? As it's turned out, nothing.

So let's keep an eye on that. Yeah. I think when equality is being eroded, that's where I struggle to keep implicit trust in the person who's making those decisions. It just shows that sometimes we think, we, the sort of, I'm going to say the sort of chattering liberal classes, might think that Kate Forrest was making those statements, rules her out. But if you, it hasn't. If you look at the polling, it hasn't.

She's still the favourite amongst those people who've actually got a vote. Yes, which is not us. It isn't us. So she doesn't need to care what we think. This is from somebody who wants to stay anonymous. It's in response to our teenage listener. That was Agent K, who's 15, and emailed us last week about self-care in schools and how pupils are told to look after themselves

by the very people who load more work and pressure onto them. I hate to say it, says our emailer, but it doesn't get any easier in the world of work. I had a recent conversation with my manager about feeling overwhelmed by the constant changing directives and unachievable

expectations and workload and she said how can I ask you to do anything if you just feel overwhelmed and upset? We're all adults, we all have to do the job, what do you need to get your tasks done? It was very frustrating. The first thing that occurs to me is that as well as having the problem of feeling overwhelmed I'm also meant to have the solution. How the hell do I know what I need to get my tasks done? Well, I do know a reasonable amount of work and some level of understanding, but that seems to be the last taboo. You can't say it's too much work, even though it is. I'm actually close to asking my GP if I can be signed off with stress as I'm really unhappy and I have no work-life balance. Juggling working full-time with a young family

isn't easy but I also feel guilty about the amount of work my colleagues would then have to do in my absence. Yes I really feel for that listener because that she's got it coming at her from every angle. She doesn't want to let people down. She's worried about her family and she doesn't seem to have a boss who's in any way supportive. Apart from that, it's all fabulous. It's a shame that her boss didn't try to make some sort of concession or just hear her anyway. So which bit would you take out of that very busy pie? Should she be... You can't take a family out of it.

She can't actually really prioritise her work colleagues because she's got to think of herself before she thinks of them, really, because she's clearly feeling overwhelmed. She just needs a more sympathetic and, frankly, better boss. It's not easy to achieve, though, is it? No, but I'd take the time off. If you can, if it's not going to ruin your chances at work, it is only a job, listener, at the end of the day.

I'm at least chucking out, hurling out all the blood juice today. Well, it is only a job. I'm swimming in the Horlicks of Garvey tonight. I think also sometimes that, you know, feeling guilty for your work colleagues, sometimes it's that, what's that fantastic expression? Courage speaks to courage everywhere. You know, sometimes in one person standing up and saying,

we've got a very bad boss and we're all working too hard, it enables other people to do that too. So you never know, you might start a wave. Think of that. Yeah. No, I'm sorry. It's a horrible feeling when you just feel that it's just all getting too much. And I don't know how old this person is.

They've got a young family, so I guess they're younger than us. And there's something about sort of menopausal years that you sometimes can just think, I just can't work my way through this. There are just too many people from all aspects of my life asking me to do too many things too quickly and in a tiny amount of time, and I just can't do it anymore. So I really feel for you, and I hope things get better.

I'd have another go at your boss to try and make them to be a bit more understanding and then after that, fees right, it's just a job. Jack it in. And because your feelings of spiralling out of control now, if you let those go too far and then you start thinking letting your kids down too, that's just going to be a horrible place to be in.

It's not worth it. So we are here for you, metaphorically sister, and keep us posted. I hope things get a little bit better. Right, is it time for active hedgehogs yet? Yes, let's go into this, she said, in a professional sort of a way. Okay, so we're just going to bring you two slightly kind of shortened interviews today because we did have such a busy day politically. We didn't manage to do just one long interview timing wise but we thought that you might like to hear some fun and

frolics from the particularly nocturnal activity of hedgehogs. One of the news stories that caught our eye for our new moderately interesting Monday feature was this research about warring wildlife and a study has found that creatures like hedgehogs, badgers and foxes are regularly brawling with each other in competition for food left out by humans. We talked to the very eloquent Professor Dawn Scott, who's got a very long job title. Here we go. The Executive Dean of the School of Animal, Rural and Environmental Sciences

at Nottingham Trent University and the lead author of the study. What we found most interesting was actually the interactions with hedgehogs between actually hedgehogs themselves. So hedgehogs are usually a solitary species, but actually what we found is lots of incidences of them fighting. So sometimes they'd chase each other and roll and roll each other across the garden, sometimes downstairs. And I think reasons for that is we think is the availability of food in gardens is causing them to come together and compete over that food. And are they rather thuggish with each other? It's not playful fighting. It's really mean fighting. It's definitely not playful fighting if you're getting rolled down a flight of concrete stairs or into a pond or right the way across the garden. So I think it's competitive rather than sort of aggressive. It really is just to try and move

them away from the food so they've got access to it. This is going to be a daft question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Is this fighting between hedgehog family groups? Oh, OK, that's a good question. We don't actually know how related they are. I mean, they could be different families. They could be the same families. Hedgehogs tend to be solitary. So when they come together, it's usually only to mate. And so this is quite unusual. The food is bringing them together. So it could be the same families, could be different. I suspect it's probably a different family if they're not allowing them to eat food. So should we leave food out for them then? Are we, fact doing harm by leaving little bits of stuff out? Feeding animals in urban areas, they are reliant on it, you know, it's a really important resource. And I think what we're trying to do is find out the best way to do that. So, you know, headchild populations have declined, they're really in stress at the moment. And so we need to do all we can to support them but sometimes if we do things through kindness it can have other effects and what we're trying to do is say well if we do feed them how's the best way we feed them to trying

to reduce conflict not just with other hedgehogs but also with potential predators as well so we get badgers and foxes in these gardens coming together over this food. Who's likely to win in a fight between a hedgehog and a fox? Oh that's a good question so we did a really good diagram to ask this question answer this question so between a fox and a hedgehog the fox is more likely to win they are bigger and they are an actual predator but when we look at things like hedgehogs and cats that's a different story so cats don't know what to do with hedgehogs. So a hedgehog will get access to food and actually see the cat off. So it's a really interesting dynamic we're seeing.

OK, but surely the cat's bigger than the hedgehog. Is it the prickles that the hedgehog's got that protect it? Yeah, it's a natural defence. So the spines there are to protect them from predators. And I don't think cats know what to do with them. You know, it's not an animal they'd come across very frequently. So when we saw the cats, they either looked at them, ran away. If they did touch them, they ran away quite quickly. So yeah, so they didn't get to the food. The hedgehogs definitely dominated the food over the cats. Okay, so a fox just bites through the spines, does it?

Well, we didn't see any indication of predation. Foxes can predate hedgehogs, but most of the time it was competitive. So what we saw is sometimes the fox moving away, moving the hedgehog away from the food, or actually just getting to the food before the hedgehog, and then the hedgehog was rolling away or moving away from the fox. So it's not like an aggression. It's more of trying to compete to get access to the food. So if you want to help a hedgehog, what should you be leaving out for them? And how can you make sure that a fox or a badger or a cat doesn't get there

first? Okay, so hedgehogs, you can produce sort of containers. There's guidance of how you can make hedgehogs sort of accessible food sources. So it has like one way in and one way out. So it stops badgers and foxes getting in. And then in terms of foods, as much natural as possible. So you can get commercial bought food, but anything that's natural is really, really helpful. So and diversify as well. Try to encourage them to eat as much natural food in the garden. So the best thing to do is not necessarily provide food, but provide habitat that provides natural food for them. Like what?

So if you've got like rough grassland or anything like that. So if you mow a little bit less and leave rough areas and also things like log piles, that all has invertebrates in them. And they're the best food for hedgehogs is for them to eat natural invertebrates rather than sort of human processed food isn't as good for them. My mum always used to say that we should leave a little bowl of milk out for our hedgehogs. always used to say that we should leave a little bowl of milk out for our hedgehogs. Was she wrong? She was wrong, I'm afraid. It was obviously trying to be very kind and support wildlife, but hedgehogs are known to be a bit lactose intolerant, so milk is not good for hedgehogs. You can buy commercial hedgehog food, and as I said, you can try to encourage your

garden to be as wild as possible that's the best thing for them. Okay what's the best hedgehog on hedgehog move that you've seen? So we actually term something the barge and roll so we've seen a hedgehog run at another hedgehog which is the barge and then the other hedgehog rolls into a ball as a natural defense and then it rolls it across the garden. And as I said, we've seen these rolled downstairs into ponds and all sorts of stuff. So it's quite entertaining as well as quite stressful to watch all these videos of all this fighting in the gardens between different wildlife. How heavy would a really big hedgehog weigh?

So just before hibernation, they can be just under a kilogram so it depends on how much they've eaten and that's if they've overeaten so we don't really want them too big because then they can't roll it stops them rolling into a ball to protect them from predation so hedgehogs even though they need to put on fat for winter if they're too fat that's not good for them either. It's like the rest of us, isn't it? You've just got to be careful. Get that balance right. What you eat.

That was Professor Dawn Scott, who is the, here we go again, I'm going to do it faster, the Executive Dean of the School of Animal, Rural and Environmental Sciences at Nottingham Trent University talking about a study. Yes, and news there that hedgehogs can be very unpleasant to each other, but the fatter hedgehog needs to watch itself or it will no longer be able to roll into a ball and that will spell a lot of danger potentially.

So you see, even hedgehogs have to look up, just watch their weight. They've got to watch their weight. Yep, so we're speaking directly to the paunchy hedgehogs here, aren't we? You're a fat hedgehog. Have a whirl with yourself. Oh, can't say fat. Can say hedgehog, can't say fat can say hedgehog can't say fat you can say enormous oh sorry

yes if you're a bigger hedgehog and you're listening stop it if you're a plus sized hedgehog stop it stop it it's very childish

right okay now Doc Brown well he used to be called Doc Brown I think has he given up being called Doc Brown? I think he's only Doc Brown when he goes back into the world of rap. OK, well, now he is Ben Bailey-Smith.

He's an actor. He's been a comedy writer as well, hasn't he? He's done comedy writing with Ricky Gervais. And he was on our radio show today. He's in the back of a van with a persistent cougher who turned out to be his teenage daughter who really wasn't well and they were waiting for a doctor's appointment you see um the parenting thing it just never stops does it you have these nippers and then it just seems to be i was i'm still amazed to

discover this is a lifelong commitment it's just astonishing it simply never ends anyway um ben bailey smith was our guest a very welcome one to his podcast. It's new. It's called Shrink the Box. And it's a really good concept, this. He presents it with the psychotherapist, Sasha Bates, and they take big characters from hit TV dramas and examine their psychological lives. So we're talking Walter White from Breaking Bad, Omar Little from The Wire, Tony from The Sopranos,

and the next episode is all about Fleabag from Fleabag. So here is Ben in the back of what looked like quite a superior motorhome. As you can see, my hands are completely free. Yeah, I'm parked. OK. On the move. Right. I won't ask where you're going to.

And, you know, and obviously, I hope you've paid the appropriate parking. Right. You're very open at the beginning of your podcasts about your own journey through therapy. How long has that journey been and how has it helped you? Yeah, it's been on and off. I think the first time I tried it was 2014 and it didn't sit well with me. But I think it was just more the therapist. I just thought, oh, my gosh, you are useless. Even though I have no experience of it, I just knew that it wasn't working out. The vibe wasn't there.

And that sort of put me off it. But then I tried it again in 2017 and sort of just opened myself up a little bit more and, you know, stopped thinking. It sounds a strange thing to say so self-consciously, but I think you do have to sort of let go a little bit of that idea that you're meeting just another human being, you know, and you have to show off or be something you're not. You know, it's kind of the exact opposite. And if you hadn't had some decent therapy and i

obviously i hope the second therapist was much better than the first then would you have been as interested in exploring this kind of thing about drama i i'm not sure is this the is the true answer because i've always been interested in therapy because my mum was a therapist, family therapist. So I was fascinated in how it might turn people's lives around for the better. And myself, I was a youth worker working with a lot of kids on the margins of society and seeing how, you know, negative environments, either in the home or outside the home or or economic situations or or uh racial backgrounds or or sexuality amongst young people might affect them negatively and and have no one to talk to about it so i've always had some interest so i wouldn't i wouldn't say if

if i'd never had therapy and the idea was put in front of me, I would just poo-poo it immediately. I think it's a fascinating thing. On the surface, Shrink the Box seems like just a wild flight of fancy. You just think, well, what's the point? The character's not real. But the psychoanalysis that Sasha does is real. is real and and everything that she refers to is real be it biological or or purely um uh uh purely from a psychotherapeutic point of view um and some of the concepts that she got well i say some of the concept all of the concepts she comes up with are relevant to being a human being regardless of the super villain or or um you know tricky character like Fleabag that we're looking at.

There are so many things that when I hear her in full flow, I think, oh, yeah, that's like this or like that in IRL, as the kids say, you know. And I think that's why the show really works, alongside the fact that we're talking about iconic television programmes that hopefully most people have seen. Yeah. You have these great chats, I think in particular, about modern masculinity, actually,

and certainly in some of the characters that you've chosen, Tony's in The Sopranos and Walter White in particular. And I wonder when we have these incredibly brilliant, nuanced characters everywhere, that actually there is a real problem at the moment with thuggish, aggressive, toxic masculinity. It's a big question of our times for you there, Ben, and I hope you're capable of answering it.

So you mean in the real world? Yes. We're watching these very, very clever characters, aren't we? That have been really thought about and really tell us something about the real male brain. But that really doesn't seem to compute to this extraordinary rise of very linear, I'd say rather stupid misogyny. Yeah. And I think that's because there's so many other things that are much more readily available and much more quicker to consume it's only going to take you 30 seconds to listen to what idiocy someone like andrew tate might have to say on one of his pointless boneheaded

youtube videos you know but it's going to take you uh weeks months perhaps years to come to complete a series where a show comes out every week, like say something like Succession, which really digs into, you know, the idea of jealousy within the family structure, the sort of Cain and Abel emotions that can rise within what from the outside might look like a loving family. Interesting, complicated concepts like that might take you four years to watch. And if you are not that way inclined, then it's probably much easier to click online and watch 30 seconds of dross from an idiot.

I listened to the Tony from The Sopranos episode of Shrink the Box, Ben. And guess what? It was all his mother's fault. I mean, that's the gist of it, isn't it? Or is it more complicated than that? Yeah, I think it's way more complicated than that. I think what we're really looking at, because we could do that every week, because, you know, we both have a reverence for Freudian psychology. And it's not hard to look at yourself, whoever you are, and think, oh, I'm turning into my mom or I'm turning into my dad or I'm mirroring behaviors of my parents.

But that's just sort of part of the puzzle. So we could every week just go, well, that's because his mom was like this or that's because her dad was like that. It is way too simple because at some stage you become responsible for your own actions and you are a grown adult. is because there are learned behaviors that are mixed with, a lot of the time, the building of a void, something missing. So you could have the two most loving parents to ever walk the earth, but if you as a child perceive that maybe one of them preferred your sister or your brother better than you, or you perceive that there was a lack of love or a lack of something that you required as a very small child trying to fill that void um as you grow can become problematic you know you can you can develop behaviors that uh you know are actually

detrimental that harm you but they're behaviors that you taught yourself to believe were part of your inner security part of a way of making you feel good to replace that thing that you wanted to make you feel good back when you were a young innocent that's why we constantly look at the parents but it's not the parents fault uh quotes unquote because every parent i like to think most parents let's's say myself included, we're trying to do the best that we can, you know, and it can take a lifetime for you to turn around and go, actually, I mean, for me, I think it was definitely having children, you know, I had children and I was like, oh, my God, this is really bloody hard.

This is really hard. And it makes you look back at your parents and go, wow, you know what, you did the best you could with the tools that you had, you know. So that's sort of that's our starting point. Let's let's imagine that the parents did the best they could with the tools that they had. And then let's look at what built within this person, within this character to make them behave the way that they behave. Yeah. So you can break the cycle of bad parenting, can't you? You really can. Absolutely.

But actually, those people who do, I'm never really sure that they get the credit they deserve. No, it's almost a silent, private act, and there's no award for it. There's no, you know, there's no big celebration. Even your kids won't thank you, you know. So the thanks you get and the reward you get sort of comes through those beautiful moments in your life where you know you realize oh my kids are

all grown up but they haven't forgotten about me you know that they check in with me they they they pop up at the door we have wonderful get-togethers you know and um it's those moments where i think if you were able to take stock you can go oh my gosh you know we didn't do too bad over here we did all right now ben you've got you've got somebody with you in the car who definitely needs a drink of water okay so the reason the reason i'm in a car yeah the reason i'm in car is my 14 year old is incredibly ill. So I've had her off school today and I've just driven her to the doctors to get some antibiotics. OK, do you know what, Ben? Now you've told us that it would be the worst thing in the world if we carried on answering you questions.

Will you send our very best to your daughter? Apologise for the fact that Dad had to pull over and talk to two small women from Times Radio about his podcast but we've enjoyed every moment and get the antibiotics and get her home. That's exactly what I'm going to do. Ben Bailey-Smith with a coughing teenager and did look

like a nice motorhome, didn't it? It did. I don't know whether it was his own or he'd borrowed it. Very much hoping that everything's alright there and that you get the antibiotics and, you know, well done for the multitasking while it lasted. Can I just bring you to close? To close. A letter from the Times from a man called Ken,

who's in Cumbria, and it's headlined, A Worrying Trend. Brace yourself. Ken writes, Sitting in my favourite pub, having requested a drink from the young waiter, I heard the dreaded response, no worries. No worries. Exactly.

Was it a momentary slip? Sadly not. Every subsequent, subsequent transaction ends the same way. What response can I make? Thank you is unlikely to change things. I'm pleased for you. I hope there wouldn't be. I have none either. Please don't keep saying that. Maybe I should just have screamed and risked embarrassment. No, Ken, you can just stop moaning about really, really stupid things. Probably an Antipodean. He said, no worries. It's just a way of speaking.

It's quite friendly. In fact, very friendly. Get over yourself. Has that done the job? Was it a no booze weekend? You're right. Should I pour you a sherry? Oh, I'd like a whole sherry trifle.

That's what I'd like. Not one of them small individual ones, but a family size. Okay, let's get her that right away, Keir, please. OK, that's it from us for today. Thank you for your company. Jane and feet at times. And tomorrow, our guest is a really it's a really interesting book. This I've only read about half of it, but I shall scootle through the rest of it. It's about breast milk.

Milk is what it's called. And I think it's called Milk, An Intimate History of Breastfeeding. I hope I've got that right. There is a nugget you didn't realise or never knew existed on every single page. And the only people who think breastfeeding is not interesting have never breastfed or been around anyone trying to breastfeed or ever been a baby who's been breastfed, frankly. I just think it's such an interesting area of social history looking forward to it is the book quite hard to get into at the beginning but gets easier by the end no it's really painful at the start and no forget it right okay it's better for baby actually we're not even going to go there uh that good conversation about it tomorrow

yes have a good conversation about it tomorrow on the podcast. We will, yes. Have a good evening. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now, you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this but live, then you can Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio.

Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye.