Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Hello everybody, this IS my first rodeo (with John O'Farrell)

Episode Date: April 17, 2024

Today Jane and Fi get a real telling off for failing to appreciate the art of Morris dancing. They now want to know, what do you use for your thrills and spills? Fi also speaks to author and political campaigner, John O'Farrell, about his latest book 'Family Politics'. You can book your tickets to see Jane and Fi live at the new Crossed Wires festival here: https://www.sheffieldtheatres.co.uk/book/instance/663601 Our next book club pick has been announced - A Dutiful Boy by Mohsin Zaidi. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Hannah QuinnTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Porn star martinis clearly do a great deal for your creativity. Do you think they do a slow dance at the end of the Morris dance? I don't know. I don't know. Well, why should we begin? We went out last night. You had two glasses. Are you feeling all right this morning?

I'm absolutely heading for my peak. OK. I'm going to the theatre again tonight. Are you? Yeah, so that's two nights out on the trot. Poor Blimey. Should be done to a crisp by the time tomorrow rolls round. We had small plates, didn't we?

And I couldn't work out when I got home whether I'd had dinner or not. So I had a big bowl of mashed potato what well because because it was very nice food it was and the they weren't particularly small plates but i just couldn't i just didn't feel that i'd had a meal no you're right that the small plates they do bring you they present a challenge in that respect because you are left thinking afterwards was you're right was that my is it 800 calories you meant to have in a meal i don't know no i've no idea um no i think there's at least one diet book that claims you can get by on 800 calories a day well i can't um no so it was a bit of yes it was a challenge in that respect you're right but i didn't have anything when i got home or did

i i don't know i watched a bit of Love is Blind. Yeah, with a young person. And then actually by 10 o'clock I was sound asleep. What's the premise of Love is Blind? Well, I think you're pretty much engaged to be married to someone that you can't see. So you're filmed apparently in the same room. Well, I could gather. My head was a bit fuzzy by the time I was watching this. But you can't, you haven't actually seen the person

that you're in a relationship with. A relationship in speech marks for reality television purposes. OK, and then you get to know them and you talk to them and all those kind of things. And judging by what I witnessed last night, you fall out with them as well. Yes. OK.

Troubled times. Well, we're on, I think, episode 30 of Married at First Sight Australia. We've just got four episodes to go. And it's been a really valuable watch. In what respect? Well, so I'd always, exactly that expression you've now got on your face. Quizzical. Quizzical and a little bit condemnatory.

So I'd always had that view of it too but we have been watching this series uh me and my daughter my daughter and i patricia will get annoyed which one is right she's still listening though yeah okay sorry patricia take your pick whichever one is right um and it's just a very it is very interesting in terms of what makes a relationship work because some of them get the hots for each other right at the beginning and off they go they refer to it as intimacy and we all know what that means so so quite a few of them uh you know couldn't keep their hands off each other and had intimacy on their honeymoon but then they do have to share an apartment together and actually you know live out a relationship for a good it must be three months before they decide whether

or not they're going to stay together. And the things that raise their ugly heads within those three months are absolutely the things that end up making a relationship work or not, which is people's habits, people's annoying ics, the fact that sometimes you just can't communicate with somebody. You know, they've just got a different way of telling you things and you just don't understand it. I think they go back home in one of the episodes, you know, a good way in, to actually go and meet friends and family.

And that bit of it's fascinating. But how are they paired up in the first place? So they're paired up by people who are experts. Oh, experts. Who's experts, Jane. I think the nation's people who are experts. Oh, experts. Who's experts, Jane? I think the nation's had enough of experts. They are experts. And they've done an awful lot of deciding who might go on with who.

And they know somebody's backstory. So they've tried to avoid, you know, particular characteristics or types of people. So they do want it to work. It's not some kind of dreadful, you know know spin the bottle and off you go with somebody so the individuals don't have any they have no element of choice no oh literally i didn't realize they turn around um and someone is there yeah at the makeshift altar uh and somebody is there and that's their person but it has proved a really fertile conversation induinducing programme to watch about relationships. And I wonder what people make of it in Australia,

because we deliberately decided we would watch the Australian version, not the UK version, just to put a little bit of distance. Is there a UK version? There is a UK version. I think it's been sold all the way around the world. So you can hover over the Australian version with an element of distance. Yes, OK. So you can hover over the Australian version with an element of distance. Yes, OK.

I would recommend doing that. Think to yourself, that wouldn't happen here. But, of course, it already has. Just a quick one on cheese from Sharon. I think this is quite controversial. I heard you talking about cheese the other day, she says. The best one I've found to go with ham and brown bread for lunch is just a slice of gouda.

Gouda? Gouda? Gouda. Gouda. I slice of gouda gouda gouda gouda gouda i always go gouda that's probably it it really does add a nice tang says sharon well that's a short and lovely email and more along those lines please i don't agree with you sharon but i'm interested in your point of view that's me i'm dead interested in what other people think, even if I don't ever go along with it. I would never pick that in a sandwich. Well, I do like a pre-sliced gouda. It's very easy. It's got no taste.

It's nice and it's slightly rubbery, isn't it? In the special offers aisle at Lidl this week is Belgian cheese. We've absolutely gone for it because they're selling them in tubs. Chunks of Belgian cheese. Chunks of Belgian cheese. In a tub. And it's absolutely, that is lovely. That is absolutely.

So in the same way that you buy a tub of small bite-sized millionaire shortbread, they're chunks of cheese. These are sort of, yeah, but they're a bit smaller than you'd get in a millionaire shortbread. By the way, how many millionaires have you ever seen eating that stuff?

I mean, honestly, I haven't seen that many. As soon as you reach that important monetary... Financial milestone. You get sent. Now you're allowed to eat this. Congratulations. Another thing that annoys me at the moment is

the phrase, it's not your first rodeo or it's not my first rodeo. Can stop saying that god i haven't heard that very much it's everywhere it's being used in various advertisements at the moment i've heard i've heard people saying about their relationship you know oh well it's not my first rodeo also thoughts and prayers to those people who like myself have never attended a rodeo yes because it is your first one day if i ever do do exactly that i want to reserve the right to say hello everybody i'm not sure what to do this is my first rodeo well have you been to one no well there we are no that's a very good point thank you the phrase i hate is it speaks to oh god no it just means nothing it speaks to. Oh, God, no, I can't stand it. It just means nothing.

It speaks to the fact that. That's two phrases you can take out of any sentence. You're buying yourself time. And the sentence will still make sense. Yeah, so don't say it. But I understand why people do, because it just gives them a nanosecond to conjure up what they're really trying to say. And I think we hear that, so I don't like that.

Stop it. Stop it! Right, right. Charlotte has been in touch to say and i think we hear that so i don't like that stop it stop it right right charlotte has been in touch to say good morning and that's a lovely way to start an email the email is entitled should you give a child a chainsaw yeah i'm glad you picked this because i picked it too just catching up with yesterday's episode with martha lane fox and wanted to share contact details for a hub of perhaps like-minded people who would like to wait until later childhood to give their children their first smartphone but worry about the ostracization these children will face. Basically it's hopefully linking yourself up

with parents in your area who are also trying to hold out on this unfolding chapter. So when your child says literally everybody else has one mum you, you can come back with not true. So and so from down the road is also in your sorry boat. Perhaps listeners with primary school aged children should also share this with head teachers. Maybe get a dialogue going before year six so parents can actually take the temperature of a year group's parents to see how they actually feel about buying that first phone for a 10th or 11th birthday it is the gift given in a sleepwalking state handing it over with a sinking feeling of resignation smartphone culture is so ubiquitous can a parent really have any influence at all so the website link is here so if you just type in smartphone free childhood you will get to it and Charlotte goes

on to say Catherine Ryan who was open on her podcast about her teenage daughter having a smartphone verbalizes her mixed feelings on the subject by saying chainsaws are useful pieces of equipment a tree surgeon literally could not run their business without one but I think we can all agree chainsaws aren't for children and that's a very nice line that is a really good line and a quite an effective way of thinking about them yeah so the idea of that is that will allow you to speak to other people who've made the decision not to give their children a smartphone yes and there are definitely a couple of primary schools where the parents have already all got together to say look this will only work if we all do it.

But if we all hold off giving our kids a smartphone in primary school, then we stand a much better chance. You know, as soon as one kid in a class gets a smartphone, so they go down like dominoes. And also it just means that... Well, he needs one in the class to have it. Yeah, and show all the stuff around. The whole world is there, isn't it?

Yeah, and can I just say,lotte's got a bit at the bottom uh that says uh you've been with me through pregnancy and birth of a second daughter cancer twice a hysterectomy and 40th birthday including big birthday getaway with all female friends that's such a lot to go through you know you've put it there in a tiny sentence charl, but Jane and I both really, really wish you well because that's a lot, a lot to have happened to you. And thank you as well for remembering. I went to, for my 50th birthday, I went with my favourite women on the planet

to the Blue Lagoon in Iceland and we just had such a lovely time. It is one of those things that I will never, ever regret doing and sometimes i still think about it and it gives me a really lovely warm feeling it was so magic jane it was so so magic the blue lagoon is that the one with salt so that's the very hot thermal pool in iceland and we went in february so it was super outside. We had a snowstorm and we were swimming, all kind of waddling around in, you know, 38-degree water as the snow came down with our matching swimming hats.

Do you have to... This is a serious question. Do you have to book a slot or is it big enough? You do. Well, no, you have to really book a slot. And it's been closed a lot recently because of the eruptions in Iceland and I think a lot of people worry that it might not ever you know really be able to to open again but I really hope that you manage to do something fantastic for your 50th birthday and Charlotte says and all I have to look forward to

is friends being more successful in their work and earning more and having fewer time restraints from the young children we've all currently got those are two great great great points well made that's very good but you know if you can if you can do it and and it seemed like a it just seemed like an enormous thing at the time because all our children were much younger you know so getting everybody to all the child care arranged and all of that kind of stuff we were just so giddy when we went to go do it and it was well worth it. I think giddy is exactly the right adjective for the possibility of time away from smaller

and quite demanding people, which isn't to say, of course, that they're not a wonderful blessing. Yeah. We've been taken to task by Ian, who's in the Leicester area oh dear hi guys

good start your views on Morris dancing are ludicrously outdated oh dear oh certainly in the last century Morris was dying on its feet that's quite a prospect Morris dying on its feet

most of the protagonists were old fellas with white hair and beards who'd got into it at a time when folk music and dance were actually pretty cool back in the 60s, when you both had other priorities. I think in my... In the late 60s, I think my priorities were... What were my priorities in the late 60s? Well, Fee hadn't even been born, to be fair to her,

and I was extremely keen on Camberwick Green, but I'm not really sure I had any other priority. Anyway over time folk and therefore Morris lost its cool and later generations largely eschewed it leaving the poor old white haired dancers as the only public face. But that was then.

Now hold the front page women are not just allowed to Morris dance but there are some excellent all women teams around. Take to Morris Dance, but there are some excellent all-women teams around. Take Boss Morris, founded in 2015, before the concept of the podcast was even invented. The website below will give you all you need. Look at the videos. You might even like them, though you are allowed to think it's all a bit weird. That is bossmorris.com. There's plenty more where that came from, says Ian. As for me, I've got no axe to grind,

but I am a long-standing fan of and writer about folk music, and I hate to see it being trashed by those who are as knowledgeable as you two. But best wishes with your podcast. Thanks, Ian. OK, we've been told. Well, that has put us... Very much been told. Very much in our place. I mean, we don't ever pretend to be experts in anything.

Because we're not. No, we're not. We're generalists. Polymaths. Or prats, depending on... Anyway, look, Ian, look, I take your point. I'm sorry if we've caused offence. It was just a bit of fun.

I know, but I absolutely retain the right to not enjoy every form of culture, Jane. It would just be absurd if we pretended that we did. Well, it would. Yeah. And we don't, but every now and again we do cause offence. It's usually me, but on this occasion I think it's both of us. So, Ian, we've read the email and we'll move on.

OK, well, can I just, can I squeeze in Jean before we move on? We haven't entirely left because there's plenty more on Morris Dancing. Keira, Laura, Jane and Fi, this email may be too late for the Morris Dancing chat, it's not. However, although it occurred over 20 years ago, it has stuck in my mind. I was being interviewed for a job as an administrator at a college of higher education

and my potential boss was Dr. J.D., an academic at the college. At the end of the interview, which went well, he said, now this last question is probably the most important of the interview. I love this. And think carefully before you answer. What is your opinion of Morris Dancers? And before you answer, I am one. Only a few people know this and I need you to keep this to yourself. I got the job and kept it confidential for over 20 years until now. Well, you have lifted the lid, Jean. But also, how can you keep confidential something that is designed to be publicly witnessed? I, Iris, that was the bit I was puzzling over.

Can you, can you just do it on the sly? Well, I wouldn't have thought so. Well, it's not a covert act. Or are there more sinister Morris dances that have to happen behind closed doors, witnessed by no one? Are they happening at the Freemasons? Yes. Do you think in the Venn diagram,

how many Freemasons are also Morris dancers? Well, when we lapsed into this conversation about Morris Dancing, I think it was earlier in the week, we honestly had no idea that there'd be so much interest in and response to that particular conversational. I thought it was a cul-de-sac, but it's turned out not to be. Harriet says, I was reminded, listening to your chat, of a good pal called

nicola who just couldn't stand morris dancers and i'm so sorry maybe just make a cup of tea yeah or just leave this episode come back no i don't think ian's a regular listener i think he was alerted to our ignorance by someone and he's felt moved to contact us but i don't think he okay well you can't do that you can can't just dip in and take one episode. You've got to have more than that to balance this out. Well, OK, yeah. Yes, I'm basically with you there. We're not something that you can just take off a dusty shelf and then put back.

We're something you should cherish and keep by your bed. That's what she means. That's what we both mean. Harriet, back to you. This chat reminded me of a good pal, Nicola, who couldn't stand Morris dancers. She avoided them whenever they came out and about. It was particularly bad at this time of year.

So this is April in England, and indeed elsewhere in the United Kingdom. I suggested that Nicola write in, but she hasn't, and I've had a few porn star martinis. So I thought I'd write in on her behalf. I'm on a bus. What else am I going to do? I love this.

Somebody on a bus, fuelled by a couple of porn star martinis, has thought, sod it, I've got a bit of time to kill. I will email off air. Moving on, says Harriet, and I wish she would, a family friend also took up Morris dancing following a divorce and met a nice fellow who was part of the troupe. Now, as regular listeners will know, Fee and I are not unfamiliar with the concept of divorce, but neither of us thought after the event that Morris dancing might be the answer to our troubles. Why didn't I?

Well, it's not too late, Jane. I mean, this is the season of the jingle jangle. I think maybe if you headed down to your local village square, you might find that love welcomes you. Harriet does bring us good news of her friend who met this lovely chap at Morris Dancing. I still don't enjoy it much, but they do seem happy, says Harriet, and they've been married now for a few years. A bit of further evidence that women are allowed to partake in

what I like to call stick clacking. I'm from Suffolk, lots of Morris dancers there, but I work in Kent, home of course to the Rochester Sweeps Festival. I haven't been and I don't intend to go. Well, I think we've moved on to a whole other area there, Harriet. Porn star martinis clearly do a great deal for your creativity. Yeah. Do you think they do a slow dance at the end of the March dance festival? I don't know. And I also need to know more about the Rochester Sweeps Festival.

I wish everyone involved well. Because have you ever had your... What? Have you ever had your... What? Have you ever had your chimney swept? Yes, I have it swept every year. Oh, do you? I do. Forget you.

Right. Stop it. Hello, both. This one comes from Jay. Regarding your topic of couples from opposite sides of the world getting together, I wonder if anyone else has any experience and can offer advice. We don't want to be seen to have so much when the other side of the family can't. Our son is soon to marry his wonderful Australian girlfriend. They live an hour away from us and we see them often. Her family are

in Western Australia, lots of whom will be coming to the wedding. However, they've asked us not to attend the register office official ceremony, which is a few weeks before the big day because they feel it's not fair that one set of parents can be there while the others are so far away my husband and i feel sad not to be there but understand why they're taking this stance regards that is tricky isn't it yeah that is that really got me thinking because i don't know what the answer to that is i do understand i've got sympathies on both sides I do understand why the couple have said it's either everyone or nobody but equally if it were my offspring and I could be there I'd find it quite hard not to be there yes to to kind of be making room for somebody else's inability to attend you don't go either yeah it's a double

negative isn't it yeah yeah do you know what i do think actually um i think sometimes when you're younger and getting married you don't always understand you know nor should you because it's not your life experience yet just how much it means to parents to be at those important events of their children. And I suppose it can be a sign of two very different things, can't it? If you don't want your parents to be there, one can be because that is a horrendous experience for you. I'm not saying you should change that at all. No. But if it's the other way around, actually you get on so well with your parents, think it kind of doesn't matter they don't need to see you get married well i i trust trust

me i think i think you do want to see your kids get married actually i think it is it's just one of those moments that that gives an awful lot of parents and you know huge amount of pleasure it's a kind of it is there is still a slight handing over of responsibility as well isn't it which is quite important well if it's a daughter that you're getting shot of i mean it's wonderful isn't it and if you're getting six goats in return you have to be there to pick the goats up that's not what i mean no but you know what i mean it's kind of like they they've met somebody it's their partnership now they're gonna you know what I mean? It's kind of like they've met somebody, it's their partnership now, they're going to start their own life together. We're kind of slightly withdrawing from it or whatever it is.

Until they need money. Well, that's true. I don't want to... Well, the thing is we have got some such good emails about Morris Dancers. I'm afraid this won't be the final mention but I just wanted to acknowledge Leo's email about an episode of Doctor Who,

which I also remember, Leo. Thank you for this. Ever since this Morris Dance-themed episode of Doctor Who with John Pertwee, I have been scared to death by what Leo describes as this despicable form of dancing. It's sinister,

and it should be added to a list of prescribed activities. I mean, honestly, who knew that people feel so strongly about this? But I do remember the John Pertwee era of Doctor Who. Well, no, see, I never watched it. I just found it so terrifying. I didn't like it either. But occasionally, I mean, there were no channels in those days. So it was either that or nothing. So I did occasionally, and I do recall that. It was... It still makes me quiver and shiver a bit. Yeah.

Nasty. He was good, though, John Pertwee. Yes. Was he the one with... Did they all have big, long scarves? No, that was Tom Baker. OK, sorry. You can tell I'm really...

Or was it? I'm on very, very, very thin ice here. I think it was Tom Baker. But maybe he also did. Anyway, look. We don't want to get controversial with chat about Doctor Who. Good Lord, no. Katie is amongst many people who are really, really, really enjoying the Book Club book. I've just finished A Dutiful Boy.

I have to say it's my favourite Book Club book yet. The story itself is compelling, but it's also offered me insight into how to be more inclusive. In particular, Mohsin's descriptions of his university experience highlighted a kind of unconscious racism from his college, not accommodating his belief to students replacing his name with Martin. And Katie, we will keep your email and read the whole of it in our book club special. So I think you've probably got about three weeks to complete the book. It is called A Dutiful Boy by Mohsin Zaidi. And so

many people have really enjoyed it. And have you started it? No, I haven't. But it does look immensely readable. It's beautiful, Jane. And you know what, the quality of writing is just really remarkable so right from the get-go you know that you're with someone who can just tell a story so beautifully and just his observations his language his vocabulary his insight is really really top-notch so i'm very glad we chose it yeah so do if you possibly can grab hold of a copy. It's out in paperback now, isn't it? And we'll talk about it, as V says, in about three weeks' time on our Book Club podcast special edition.

They're all special, OK? Now, we're going to get to the guest in a couple of moments' time, but Jane has got a clipping which she couldn't squeeze onto the air yesterday, so it has made it into today. Which Kids means it is really, really really important it's an article from the sun newspaper which kitchen roll wipes the floor with all the rest and it's one of those consumer articles where people consumer consumer articles uh where researchers have gallantly tested a range of kitchen towels to discover which does indeed offer the best service that's what

you're after with a kitchen towel isn't it my question though by the way the winner in case you want to know what offers best value and actually is properly absorbent and will help you with your domestic spills the answer is saxon blast kitchen towel one yes never heard of it saxon blast i think when you don't think you went out with him he sounds like a gladiator doesn't is Saxon Blast kitchen towel. Yes, never heard of it. Saxon Blast. I don't think you went out with him. He sounds like a gladiator, doesn't he? Saxon Blast. Do you know Saxon Blast?

Actually, there should be a gladiator called Saxon Blast. You think he's got a son called Anvil? Saxon Blast kitchen towel retails at £1.99 for 100 sheets. You can get it in Aldi. And it's got five out of five in this Sun consumer test. My question, though, I was thinking about this. Oh, by the way, also, they give good marks to Floralee's kitchen towel at £2.55 for 200 sheets. That's from Lidl.

So, actually, that's much cheaper, isn't it? 100 sheets, 200 sheets. Yes, that's from Lidl. So actually, that's much cheaper, isn't it? 100 sheets, 200 sheets. Yes, that's slightly better value. Anyway, there was a time when we didn't have kitchen towel. Do you remember? Well. Because you just used to use

the all-purpose cloth. That's very true. And now, every single self-respecting kitchen has a roll of towel. Well, I beg to differ. Oh, you don't have one? We don't have one, no. Gosh, what do you use for thrills and spills?

So I use cloths. You just get one of your cloths? I just get a cloth out. And do you launder your cloths? I do. Oh. Yep. Regularly?

Yes. No, we're really now. They go on a hot wash. But do you know why? My mum just had a bit of a thing about kitchen towels. So it's just how I... It's a bit common. I don't know.

I mean, there are a lot of things in my childhood that I've not replicated in my own children's experience of their childhood, but I've stuck with the dishcloth thing. Mum used to boil the dishcloths and cloths in a big saucepan with a little bit of persil etc use whatever you like and there's a certain smell of boiling cloths that uh that is hideous but i quite like to recreate it in my own house make of that what you will bring in the guest please i can't you started i did start actually no intention i bitterly regret that transgression. I really do.

We've got Seti and now you started talking about your mother pot-boiling a load of hot wash cloths and you try to recreate it in your own home. Oh, good God. Right, John O'Farrell. Sure, but if you've got any unique anecdotes on how you manage your spills, then this is the place for you.

We do politics as well. Now, John O'Farrell is a very, very funny writer. He is a Labour man through and through. He's been a Labour activist. He has also stood as a candidate. He is a writer on so many different programmes that you would recognise in a comedy format. And he has got a new novel out.

I know that you had a very favourite. Oh, The Best A Man Can Get. The premise was a man just completely fed up with the domestic tribulations in a household dominated by the demands and needs of small children. And he just leaves and sets up a completely different parallel existence while still maintaining contact with his family. So he lives a double life.

Yeah, he does. Which is not to be advised. Please don't do that. Don't do that. But God knows we've all felt like it. So his latest novel is called Family Politics and I would really, really recommend it. It is properly, properly making you giggle in places.

What's the name of the character that did make you laugh? So there is a Labour activist. This is all set in hastings as well with lots and lots of jokes about failed in london try hastings the mob who move out of london buy big houses and then want to tell everybody who's lived there their entire lives how to run those lives and there is an activist called mrs smith smith and she is mrs smith smith because when she married mr smith she wanted to make sure that her name stayed in their surname and then there's just this lovely scene where somebody asks her

whether or not it's her Smith that comes first. And is it? Yes, of course it is because that's the feminist principle that she's trying to illuminate. That is very good. So it's full of stuff like that. It's properly good and the premise is a very simple one and a very funny one uh that these two labor people through and through their son comes back having attended university i think done a couple of

years in the outside world he comes back with the news that he's got something to impart to them and the terrible truth that he imparts is the fact that he is now a conservative so the book is called family politics and uh john came in to tell us a bit more this is the story of two um boomer lefty parents uh active in politics, the Labour Party, local refugee charities, all sorts. And they've got a son coming home, moving back home after university, as many parents my age have. And he sends them a message saying, oh, I need to have a personal chat with you.

And they think that's fine because we're so tolerant if he's gay. We'll be cool with that. We're so open-minded. But the thing he has to tell them is not that he's gay or he's trans or anything. He's a conservative. And they're like, no, you cannot be. You're just doing this to rebel. You're going through a phase. You don't mean it.

You're experimenting. And they're appalled. And then when he's got bright, more Michael Portillo type trousers, they're like, don't flaunt it. But it's not even just the trousers. The level of attention to detail in the book, I think, is absolutely brilliant.

So it's the slightly puffy gilet that he's also wearing with the pink trousers. It's the names, actually, throughout the book as well. And we'll talk a bit more about the conceit and the plot. But it's things like the candidate who is is mrs smith smith yes well who's mrs smith smith sally smith smith uh married a guy who's called smith and they wanted they didn't want she wanted to assert her equality and um wanted to uh also keep her uh name before she was married and then they have a big argument. They have an argument about whose Smith is first

and whether you pronounce it Smith-Smith or Smith-Smith. And it's just this running joke. It's the joke that actually got Alistair Campbell to get up out of the tube because he was laughing so much, bless him. He said it was the funniest book about politics he'd ever read. And in a message to me, he said it was the Smith-Smith stuff that finally got him off the tube. Yeah, well, it is the attention to detail exactly like that that makes it such a fantastic read

and you are definitely playing on that notion of rebellion within families did you rebel yourself against your parents political beliefs well my parents were sort of soft left sort of supporters of Shirley Williams and Roy Jenkins. And I was sort of radical far left, Tony Benn and Barbara Castle. I remember looking back to the 1975 referendum on Europe, I was 13 years old. And I think that's the first time I took a different position to my parents. Because Tony Benn was against Europe, I decided I was against Europe. And now I'm embarrassed to say that as a staunch Remainer. But that was the left-wing position back then.

And so I was always... But I was rebelling in the same team, as it were. So these parents in family politics think, oh, it's your politics you want to talk about. Oh, if you're Extinction Rebellion or Revolutionary Communist Party, we can talk about about that but conservative is completely beyond the pale for them yeah and and tell us just a little bit more about where the book is set because actually that's very key to it too yes that was quite a late idea because i sort of instinctively and rather lazily

set things in london quite often and i thought no this needs to be somewhere where the town is a character in the book as well and having been to Hastings quite a lot I just like the idea of this battle going on within this family and the running joke of everything being called the conquest leisure centre and the conquest hospital and the you know the conquerors country park and the Conquerors Country Park. And the notion of the last place where foreigners successfully invaded Britain becomes this sort of political touchstone for the Conservative parliamentary candidate there who plays on this idea of us repelling invaders and makes you know uh allusions to these small boats in the same way did you worry at all when you were writing the book that you were you were kind of mimicking people that you know but poking fun at them while you were doing it because obviously

eddie and emma are activists. They're good people. They want to make the world a better place. That's their belief system. Within your circle of friends, you must know lots of people like that. But you also do send them up, don't you, as parents? I think I've always done that, though. And things can only get better and things can only get worse. I sort of had enormous fun with the foibles of uh left-wing activists it's a tribe

i know very well of course and i i remember um back in the day going to labour party conference and saying seeing a hilarious review where they took the mickey out of the labour party i went i wonder what the conservatives do and they take the mickey out of the Labour Party as well. I think it's better. It's a better indicator that people on the left like to make jokes about themselves. I poke fun at the Conservatives as well, of course. But I don't think I offend any left-wing activists in there. I'll point out things that might be a bit self-indulgent or a bit too oppositionalist.

Like the banner, there's a whole thing about restoring the banner and the Conservative boy goes, why do you need a banner? Are you always going to be in opposition? Are you always going to be going on demonstrations? And there's that mindset I wanted to challenge about Labour, about we're a party of protest or are we aspiring to power? So where do you think that banner would sit now with the Labour Party? You know, if it was in Eddie and Emma's house and they are real people ahead of

this general election, does it just gather dust and they don't bother doing anything with it because they're so confident that they're not going to have to march against someone? I think there are very many Labour Party members who are proud of their banners and proud of marching under banners, but that shouldn't be the point of the Labour Party. The Labour Party should be about winning elections. Fantastic to march under a banner on specific protests about issues, about campaigns,

but the Labour Party itself is not there to go down with the government. It's there to be, we're going to be the government. That should be the emphasis. So right now, the Labour Party is in a weird place of having a 20-point lead in the polls and lots of people feeling a bit cool about the leader because they really would love him to express all the frustrations that they feel

and all the issues on which they feel so passionate. But he is not talking to them. He's talking to people he needs to persuade to vote for Labour. So what do you think happens if or when, as the polls suggest, Keir Starmer does become the next prime minister of this country, is he strong enough? And do you think that a government would be strong enough

to make all those U-turns, to come back, you know, and say, actually, the green stuff, yeah, we're going to put it back in. We were just saying what we thought people wanted to hear in order to get here. Well, I don't think any politician can say it quite in such blunt terms. But people will interpret it as that. we were just saying what we thought people wanted to hear in order to get here. Well, I don't think any politician can say it quite in such blunt terms. But people will interpret it as that if it happens. I think he'll have to tread very carefully just because there's so little money

and the economy is in such a terrible state. The sort of unspoken secret about Blair's victory in 1997 was that the major government had actually got the economy back to a pretty decent place and there was a fair bit of money sloshing around. Now there's nothing, but there's still a million decisions that cabinet ministers and governments take every day about small things that could be changed that improve people's everyday lives. And I think when we start to see a government focusing on governing rather than stoking the culture wars or trying to damage the opposition, that will be such a breath of fresh air and I look forward to that. Do you honestly think this country will ever be rich again? I really don't know.

I think we are a rich country in so many ways and we've got so much to offer the world that I don't think we need to keep beating ourselves up about you know being in decline there's a city i'm looking at out of your window for you we're looking at the city of london that was the one of the biggest trading hubs of the world and then brexit has declined since um and you think about the arts and film and culture there's so much this country has to offer but it needs a bit of help from the government and needs an environment where these things can thrive. And not a place where young people can't afford to live in the capital or where everyone's forced to move back to their

parents like this young man is in my book. So there are lots of ways that government can intervene and make us a more effective country. There's definitely a theme running throughout the book where, and I don't know whether this is just a conceit that you managed to write with, but you put into Dylan, the son's mouth, some very clever phrases about what's drawn him to the Conservatives. And, of course, that's an understandable position. There are millions of people who feel that way. But is there a little bit of you, when you were writing it,

you know, when he's talking about just wanting to have his personal freedoms, wanting to grow up with a bit more hope and optimism, not wanting to be under the banner of a duck or whatever it is, where you kind of scratch your head as an older, wiser person and go, hmm, I can't really see the point now. I did want to make him credible and wanted to make him not a sort of uh straw man so some of the issues on which he challenges his parents are things on which knee-jerk lefties might like me might go royal yacht what do we need a bloody

royal yacht for it's ridiculous like they haven't got enough palaces and castles and then the young conservative goes what if it makes more money for british industry by schmoozing chinese and japanese investors what if uh it pays for itself 10 times over by people meeting royalty and putting their car plant in sunderland just to make you go oh well i mean does that happen and is that a good is that a policy that, you know, I haven't thought about? So I just wanted to sort of dig a little bit deeper and stop us being quite so predictably left wing and have some of our smug assumptions challenged by this sort of young man who comes back into their life

and upsets everything. Yeah. Do you think that Zakir Starmer has a different side to him that he's only really going to be able to show when he might possibly be in power and you know i want to really put in i don't want us to just have a assumption about the next color of government in this country but equally during this interview it's tedious if I keep on quoting polls. So, yes, I think he's a very single minded and determined man. And the way he has been quite ruthless within the Labour Party sort of gives me some encouragement, even though I would put myself to the left of him on many issues.

I want someone who's going to win power. And then I want someone to go, you know, no, we are going to force through these policies on housing on jobs, on health that I hope he is in politics to pursue there's a certain amount of close your eyes and jump, you know, for Labour activists

at the next election and we're really hoping that he is going to change the landscape in this country. But there were many things that I think I would love to see in this country, but I wouldn't necessarily put them in a manifesto if I was standing for election. It's interesting, I do a podcast myself, Faye, called We Are History,

and I was just doing one on the permissive society in the 1960s, and we were looking at, it's called We Are History, we were looking at legalisation of abortion, Divorce Reform Act, legalisation of homosexuality. All of those things happened in 67, 68, 69. None of them were in the 1966 manifesto. They didn't mention them. And that was one of the biggest changes of that Labour government.

But you don't go into an election shouting about these rather controversial things that might frighten the horses. Yeah. OK, so what do you think might be on the horizon then? I mean, on day one, they could make it legal for asylum seekers sitting in hotels to work. It's just crazy that they're sitting there with their mental health deteriorating. We've got care homes desperate for minimum wage workers. You could do that with a stroke of a pen. Cancer or Rwanda, stroke of a pen, save millions.

There are lots of things like that that you could do. Then there are things that are expensive. Then there are things that we'll need to borrow money to build hospitals and make schools better and to build council houses. Housing is a desperate state. So many of us have got adult kids living at home. And it's crazy if you think about when I was young

and moved to London, you could live somewhere very cheaply and work and contribute to the economy, and that's becoming impossible. Yeah, everyone has to move to London, you could live somewhere very cheaply and work and contribute to the economy, and that's becoming impossible. Yeah, everyone has to move to Hastings. Yeah, move to Hastings and don't upset your parents. Do your children share the same political leanings as you? Both of them are on the left, firmly on the left. Both of them have been members of the Labour Party

at one point or the other. I'm not sure both of them are at the moment. So it's not an autobiographical book. But this month, my daughter said something very stressful. And it's a child who has taken along to my football club, Fulham. She was taken there as a six-year-old. She's been with her for decades. And she suddenly goes, John, I support Arsenal now.

And that broke my heart. I've written her out of the will. She's everything. Her brother's getting everything. And that broke my heart. I've written her out of the will. She's everything. Her brother's getting everything. So that's the nearest equivalent I've got of a betrayal. So you know how it feels. Okay. John O'Farrell.

The book is called Family Politics. And it's funny, isn't it? Because maybe it was just because this was hanging around in the ether. But we started talking about this on the podcast, this notion, you you know that your children might have very difficult political political leanings difficult for you to understand and the form of rebellion i suppose that's much more accepted is that children become more liberal than their parents and fight against that so it is quite a funny conceit to go the other way round.

It is a funny conceit. Isn't it true, though, that we're a bit more sentimental when someone says, oh, I'm from a Labour family, we've always voted Labour, and you sort of think, oh, there's a sort of twinkly aspect to that. When someone says, oh, I'm from a long line of Tories, I'm always a bit more, oh, God, why don't you try and think of something else? But then the truth is, most people are just from a long line of crazed swing voters.

And nobody ever says that. Yeah, or people who've just missed a couple of votes. Oh, I forgot. I'm from a long line of people who were just suddenly too busy on the day or got stuck in traffic. Nobody's saying that. No, I mean, I do. I think this time around, there might be a lot of people saying, I'm from a long line of people who forgot their voter ID.

Well, that could be... Don't do it, kids. All the information's there. And you can take lots of different things along with you. It doesn't have to be your passport or your driving licence. I might just go along with my Times Radio lanyard. I think that will probably get me in. Do you know the thing that I really don't have any time for at all? The members of our profession, journalists, who say they don't have any time for at all. The members of our profession,

journalists who say they don't vote because they can't... They want to float. Yes, they have to. That's the reason that you are watching Married at First Sight Australia, isn't it? You want to be a little bit above the whole thing. They have to remain separate

from the proceedings that they are involved in commentating on. And I genuinely don't understand that. Do you think that's self-aggrandising bollocks? Yeah. Well, no, no, I don't actually. I just don't get it because you're allowed to work as something and have your own personal life.

And I think you can sustain a decent political argument where you're pushing somebody up against the wall, metaphorically, over their views, irrespective of what your own views are. That's what you're kind of being paid to do, isn't it? And I wouldn't want to miss a vote, Jane. No. Well, I don't think I ever have. No. So I don't get it.

Maybe somebody could explain. Let us know. Jane and Fi at times.radio is the email address. I don't get it. Maybe somebody could explain. Let us know. Jane and Fee at times.radio is the email address. We welcome all of your thoughts on absolutely everything. I'm thinking maybe taper off with the Morris dancing. I don't know. I'm still into it. Can you take more? I'd certainly like someone to take on Sharon's cheese for a sandwich suggestion.

And I'd love to hear from someone who has been recently to their first rodeo what was it like okay and and the serious question to chuck out there is just about not being invited to your kids weddings and maybe if you're a kid who didn't invite their parents you could help out our listener by fleshing out the detail of the story and also managing your spills mainly managing your spills and Morris dancing, I think. OK, thank you very much for putting up with whatever this was. Good evening, afternoon or morning. You did it.

Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man,

it's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at three o'clock Monday until Thursday every week. And you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day, as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing with us, and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.