Off Air... with Jane and Fi - His fifth wife must be an optimistic soul...

Episode Date: July 8, 2024

Jane and Fi are back from covering election night and they are ready to debrief. Today's episode will scratch your plumbing itch and make sure you hold on for the abattoir!And they are joined by Countryfile presenter, Tom Heap, to chat about his new book, 'Land Smart'.Our next book club pick has been announced! 'Missing, Presumed' is by Susie Steiner.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Hannah QuinnPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

He did a lovely interview with him late at night, and I did think, I saw it pop up on the X. A lovely interview. You did. It's difficult to get a microphone near him, but lovely interview all the same. I did think maybe he was the person that you were going to choose to share your other curly whirly with.

I don't know. Well, let's just talk about that. Because we don't have to do politics, do we? We don't have to do politics. Don't be so silly. Although Times Radio is fantastic, isn't it? Because everybody today has been opening their conversation, their chat with how was your election?

And I like that. I like it too. We are quite interested in politics, so that's probably why. And I was saying to you earlier that I think I'm sounding rather pompous, but and that's unusual. It's unusual for me. But the 40% of people

who didn't vote, that's got to be a worry, hasn't it? I think that's an enormous worry as is the make-up of some of the independent constituencies. The constituencies won by independents, I'm sorry about that, because they are whole communities who didn't believe

that the major parties of this country offered them anything. And I think that's a thing, Jane, that's a big thing. But what everyone's been enjoying today is that, and we shouldn't be smug, but the French are in chaos no we're not being smug you seem i'm not but there is a slight element of some of the coverage has been france has got a very unstable government well and actually for years the french have been able to point at us quite legitimately and say what are they up to you are absolutely channeling your 100 years war it's quite bizarre how much joy you're taking in the chaos no no well it's honestly it's not me it's just the tone of some of the coverage has been

very much over in france things are looking very very rocky but here for once but i mean how long will this last uh possibly not for long but um it's just worth saying that the most the funniest thing about my election night was the cab driver who picked my colleague and i up from the count we were in rishi sunak's count in north yorkshire um which i don't i don't know that part of the world very well it's it's very nice that that part of i mean yorkshire's a big county we looked up how big it was it's almost it's over twice the size of the next biggest English county. Did you know that? I didn't know that. No, it's absolutely enormous.

And it varies. There are some really wealthy parts of Yorkshire and there are some not so wealthy. But Rishisunak's constituency, perhaps not surprisingly, was in a very moneyed part of very lovely, truly beautiful Yorkshire. We were picked up from the count at north allerton leisure centre and um i think you're never meant to say the exact leisure centre are you for reasons of security it's it's over now it's over now and the log flume is open again um but the cab driver who

picked us up at 20 plus five in the morning a particular type of gentleman who entertained us on the way back to the hotel by talking about all his wives and he'd had five which can i i've got so many supplementary questions but the first one is did you ask him about his life when he just started because we you and i have been in cabs before where the cab driver yeah just starts telling you i've got one of those faces yeah about their life people think she won't have much to say, I'll tell her about my life. Well, I think it's about being polite as well, because if you do that first agreement just out of good manners,

oh, really? Then that's it. Sluice gates open. Yeah. Well, they certainly opened with him, because, well, as I say, he was on to his fifth wife. She's an optimistic soul. What seemed to be true of... He hadn't made the link between his failed marriages,

and look, I've had a failed... I mean, we've all been there, and him. He wasn't actually part of the problem. It's these women. They have caused him a great deal of grief. I feel like I want to get in touch with wife number five and just... Yes. And then keep in touch.

Get in touch and keep in touch. Let's hear her story. Anyway, was it a leisure centre that you were in or was it somewhere else? We were at a leisure centre. Yes. They do a big, big business on election night. Just outside Hazelmere. We went to the wrong leisure centre initially.. They do a big business on election night. Just outside Hazelmere. We went to the wrong

leisure centre initially. The taxi carriage and it did seem awful quiet. Democracy in Surrey is really, really struggling but it was the wrong leisure centre so we went to the right one which was buzzing. Actually I just wanted to read a bit of an email from

Caroline Kelly because it says so it kind of says everything that I'd want to say about election night. Caroline says, I was a count clerk in the London borough of Barnet on election night, something I'd always been interested in doing and finally got around to applying for. The count took place at the RAF Museum in Hendon, where myself and hundreds of others counted the ballots

for the three constituencies in the borough. It was such an amazing experience. I really felt I was in the absolute heart of our democracy counting the votes in a completely low-tech unalterable way with countless observers watching over us to ensure that no mistakes were made. We were split into tables with eight count clocks on each, each supervised by a table supervisor. Every ballot is counted from a ballot box to ensure that the number of ballots matches what was supposed to be in the box. If there is even one ballot discrepancy, everyone on the table counts every ballot again to find that discrepancy. And if it continues, the ballots will be counted three separate times to make sure that no mistake is being made. Only once everything tallies do we begin to separate the ballot papers

into the candidates who have voted for and then the ballots for each candidate are counted and recounted. And actually, I completely agree with you, Caroline. She says it made me really proud to be British and proud of our amazing democracy. And I have, you know, Jane and I are really lucky because we get to do this in our job. But every count that I've ever been to,

I've thought exactly the same thing. And I've also thought, all hail the Carolines of this world who agree to turn out on election night, stay up all night and stay lucid all night. I was in Jeremy Hunt's constituency. Well done. Thank you very much. I practice that a lot.

It was meant to be a big story, wasn't it? And it kind of still was. So he was given only a 19% chance of retaining his seat in the exit poll. So it was set to be high, high drama because the Chancellor had never lost his seat before in a British election. So, you know,

there was the world's media were there. And they were actually. There was a camera crew from Japan who were there. Extraordinary times. But we're lucky to witness this, aren't we? Because the Carolines of this world who turn out, they do it all. They have been through lots of training sessions. They know that the pressure is on them.

In Jeremy Hunt's constituency, it was only 891 votes that separated him from defeat. And it meant so much to the Liberal Democrat who was trying to unseat him to win. And that didn't happen. There was a moment at about four in the morning where it was suggested it might be a recount. And you just think to the Carolines of that world, we were all shattered. Imagine how you would feel if you then had to basically go and do it all again. So all hail the people who turn out and make this process work.

Is there, can I ask, because obviously it is a long night for everybody involved, is there any reason why we do it at night? Or we can't just wait 24 hours and do it on a Friday morning at 8 o'clock? I am so glad you asked that, because I thought that at about 3.21 in the morning, I thought, why are we doing this all night?

Why don't we, exactly that, why don't we lock up the ballot boxes? Yeah. Someone guards over them. Well, that's what I was going to ask. Would it just be too costly to have the votes guarded? I don't know, Jane. I mean, I would have thought that you could pretty much guarantee that the boxes

wouldn't be tampered with. I mean, you could film them on CCTV now and everything. And it does seem absurd to be doing it overnight. There are so many volunteers who turn out who are really elderly. Yeah, no, I know. I know. And it is heartwarming, truly, that people are for them well

you do but listen um the president of the you know the leader of the free world is someone who we worry about anyway um it's um yes it was a long old night for everybody involved but brilliantly done certainly uh in yorkshire as as fee describes down in surrey so um thanks to everybody who put a shift in there because it is a hell of a shift. And there is something rather slick, weirdly slick, about the British way of just getting one government out, another one in, a removal van turns up, and it is done, apparently.

And also really lovely, genuinely, that Mr Sunak and Mr Starmer said good things about each other. I was really encouraged by that and I thought it was great. Yes, and actually Jeremy Hunt's acceptance speech was very gracious towards his opponent and his constituency, but really gracious towards the incoming government. And he made a point of saying that Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves are very decent people and you'll be in safe hands.

You know, it was a it was I think quite a lot of people in the room were pleasantly surprised because there had been some Tory MPs who had really not covered themselves in glory with either their acceptance speeches or their flouncing off really as bad losers but enough about lose trust yeah um it just was I have got I am going to say something negative because I've been very nice so far in this podcast. I am absolutely up to here with novelty candidates. I will give an exception to Count Booneface. Have you kept in touch?

Well, I think something... You did a lovely interview with him late at night and I did think, I saw it pop up on the X. A lovely interview. You did. It's difficult to get a microphone near him, but lovely interview all the same. I did think maybe he was the person

that you were going to choose to share your other curly-whirly with. I never actually cracked into the curly-whirly. Very nearly did. But actually, I felt so much better on Friday morning because the only thing I'd eaten overnight was a banana. God, I got into Waterloo Station. I had a bacon roll and two bags of hash browns from the King of the Burger. Well, I mean, that's appalling, but I did have a full English at nine o'clock.

Fantastic. Yeah, no, or my breakfast was lovely as well, actually. It really was. Sometimes there's just nothing like a proper breakfast. I'm still not keen on black pudding. Actually, later in this podcast, we are going to talk about abattoirs. Yay! Maybe.

That's how you suck people in, kids, if you want to know how to sell a podcast. What was I going to talk about abattoirs. Yay! Maybe. That's how you suck people in, kids, if you want to know how to sell a podcast. What was I going to say? Yes, so we had Count Beanface, but we also had the Monster Raving Loonies. They're not funny. They're just not funny. And they arrived at, I don't know, just after midnight,

an enormous kerfuffle. That was the one wearing the silly mask. That was the baked bean man who stood against Rhys Morg in Somerset. So we had a ventriloquist in Yorkshire. So what was the dummy? That was Archibald or something. Archibalds don't freak me out. I'm not keen. And just what is the point? Perhaps they were amusing 40 years ago. They're not amusing now. Maybe they never were or perhaps it's just me and i'm a grouch which as everybody knows i'm not uh fee doesn't say

doesn't say anything no i was just thinking i can't imagine a time where i would ever walk into a polling booth and think yeah just for fun i'll put my ex next door to someone who's just in it for laughs i'd rather not turn up at the polling booth than do that because it's only encouraging them, Jane. You're so right. It is, isn't it? Yes, absolutely. Now, I did make an appeal on Thursday's podcast

when we were speaking to each other from our respective constituencies on election night about the difference between freestanding baths and plumbing in a bath very important point it's quite niche but we were trying to work out whether or not if you have a bath in a freestanding bath it feels different also i wanted to know how it was to install one and andy has um come up with the answer thank you so much i mean you never know who's listening and there was someone listening who knew the answer to this. Jane and Fee, re-freestanding baths versus against the wall baths and ease of instalment. In my experience, it's a bit easier to install a freestanding bath as you don't need eight foot long arms to connect the pipework to the taps up a tight dead end in a corner.

As you do with a to the wall install. The issue with a freestanding bath is that everything's on display and so all the plumbing needs to be dead neat and plumb and the legs the claw feet need fixing really neatly and securely to the floor to avoid you skidding it off across that self-same floor like in a latter-day female version of a last of the summer wine episode so thank you very much for that andy i appreciate that i hadn't yeah because all the plumbing is exposed in a freestanding bath so you've got to get it right and as he says it's got to be plum which is where

plumbing comes from isn't it is it yeah plum i didn't know that. Plumb. That's wonderful. Yeah. Well, I mean, that is a little plumbing itch that's been scratched. Certainly has. And don't forget, abattoirs later. So this one comes in. Trad wives, anti-feminist or modern female choice. Now, this is fantastic. It comes from Jess in North Somerset. And we're going to put it out to our listeners

and very much enjoy what comes back. Jess says I was listening to Thursday's episode in which you both discuss the potential pleasures to be found in domestic tasks. Strong relate to feeling that some of my best processing is done whilst folding laundry, hoovering the carpets, cleaning the bathroom often whilst also listening to off-air. We don't mind being the soundtrack to chores at all, do we? I'm really interested to know what you think about the trad wives movement. These are women who emulate a kind of 1950s housewife lifestyle with financial dependence on their husband and dedicating their time to running a home, childcare, cooking, etc. I believe Alina Kate Pettit, British, was one

of the earliest trad wives, but the movement is also now big in America with the likes of Hannah Nealman and Este Williams, both of whom promote this trad lifestyle to their huge Instagram following. It promotes a lot of ideas I don't personally subscribe to. I work full time, actually earning more than my husband. Not that we feel that holds any significance in how we both run and take responsibility for our shared household.

Well, well done you, I envy you that. However, I can see why some people find this apparent lifestyle so appealing. After years of being told we can have it all and trying and failing to do just that, getting burnt out in the process, the idea of embracing a wholly domestic role without the responsibility of having to earn a salary or the pressure of juggling domestic and professional life could to some seem a welcome option interested to hear your take and jess is punting that out to the offer community to see what they think and she goes on to say you could argue it's another

example of modern female choice i have the option to work but chose not to not because society discourages me from working and encourages valuing even celebrating the hard work of running a home and raising children have you did you ever want to be a trad wife no well actually but but that doesn't mean i don't take pleasure as you know from just being in the home and i don't mind at all doing quite a fair chunk of the domestic duties i've got like you i've got a cleaner but that's still you know as you know she's not she's not daily uh she's very much weekly and that does still leave quite a lot to do fee uh so but but do i dislike it I don't really do I resent it sometimes but not that much but I think

the trad wives movement is interesting because and it's very difficult to tell isn't it because of the amplification through Instagram of you know individuals choices but it's definitely a movement that I don't think would have been quite so celebrated when we were a bit younger. Oh, no, God, certainly not. And that's part of the pendulum swing of feminism. But I'm all for it because I think, doesn't it show, and this is only for a certain demographic because it's not about women who have no choices,

it's not about women who have to go out to work or have to stay home because of the financial circumstances of their household this is about middle-class women yes isn't it who've um who've made a can afford to make a profession out of running a home yes effectively and and also get the applause by putting it on instagram i think that's an incredibly important part of the story yes yeah i mean but i think it's a fantastic thing to do if you genuinely are going to find your satisfaction and your fulfillment uh in it but i do think it will always depend maybe it's just revealing of myself jane on somebody shoving a bit of gratitude back at you

whether that's your instagram following in fairness or your partner or your children or something because i think otherwise i don't't know, it doesn't appeal. Well, we've both chosen roles in which we do get a certain amount of gratitude. And I'm going to say acclaim. And it's much appreciated. But I don't see anything wrong with it. So I'm going to really agree with Jess,

who I think is suggesting the same thing, that is quite... Don't we live in a lovely time where that's come back up to the surface without condemnation? Well... Because it is about choice. Is it without condemnation? I'm sure some people are horrified.

Well, let us know what you think. Because... But I, you know, to go back to what you were saying, these are women who are making a profession and they are they are making money out of being so-called i'm talking about the really super successful ones on the instagram trad wives i'm not sure that's all that trad to be making money out of posting pictures of yourself buffing up your neck curtains yeah and and also isn't it i don't know is it't know, is it a bit cheeky and actually just a bit vulgar, Joan, to want to then call it a movement?

Is that insulting if you were a traditional wife and you just cracked on with it? I don't know. All thoughts welcome. Yes, very much so. Joan and Fee at Times.Radio. This is from Sarah, who has sent an email about a whole series of subjects. Thank you very much. So, jonefee at times.radio. This is from Sarah, who has sent an email about a whole series of subjects. Thank you very much.

She loved hearing Griffin Dunn on Thursday's Podfee, and she loves This Is Us. But she says she was slightly agonising about how to end her email. And I get this. She thinks she went through the possibility of putting love, then best wishes, which perhaps was a bit twee, thanks, which felt a bit weird and best best what she says in brackets um so sarah i get this because i no longer know

how to end emails so um i sometimes don't put anything except jane at the end of an email that's a bit blunt i mean i'm on the receiving end of those that's a bit blunt. I mean, I'm on the receiving end of those. That's a bit blunt. I've gone through all very best, all best, and sometimes I've just put best, but I agree with Sarah. What am I talking about? You can't put love always, because it's sometimes not appropriate. Yours?

Yours sincerely? On an email? With kind regards. With kind regards. Well, with kind regards, I think that would be okay if you were emailing a much more senior individual. Well, what do you put? I'm just trying to think. It does depend on the circumstance. So the thing that always comes up on the auto what's it

is with best wishes. So as soon as I get to that final line, with best wishes will appear up. So is that because I've used it a lot or that's the google telling me i should do that it's probably just the google knowing more about you you know about yourself we should start we should start a completely new sign off um oh gosh this is from sally who is riskaverse. And she seems to have stretched out her landmark 60th birthday, she says, a bit like me,

including a spa day with her daughter, a posh afternoon tea with close family and a long weekend away with extended family. You've gone for it, Sally. Good for you. Normally, I'm an extremely risk-averse individual, but I've been trying to step outside my comfort zone. However, I was not expecting my brother's birthday present. Scale. This is going to require me to fling myself off the Principality Rugby Stadium

in Cardiff on Monday morning. Now, this might have been this morning, Sally, so let us know how it went. The experience involves climbing to the top of the stadium, ziplining across it, then abseiling back down. When my brother handed me the voucher and I realised what I was expected to do, I asked him if he was going to do it with me. He said, no way, I'm scared of heights. Well, that's terrific, isn't it? Sally, if you've done it, let us know how it went.

I do hope it went well. And if it's coming up up I hope you enjoy it I hope you feel fantastic when you've done it Have you ever thought of doing a parachute jump? No What if he was strapped to somebody else? No

I'm not suggesting you should be strapped to me but someone who knows what they're doing I genuinely don't understand those kind of adrenaline things at all. I'm not sure I do either. I always think that I'll either need a wee or I'll actually go for a wee. Which if you're strapped to someone else

is no fun for them. It's very embarrassing because then everybody would, you know, rush to congratulate you in the middle of a field and then they'd look at you and not know what to do. So there's that that would haunt me. i don't like a rush of adrenaline at all i could quite happily never have a rush of adrenaline again in my life and i'll be absolutely fine and also i just think it's a slightly weird present i mean i would genuinely much rather just have the john knows vouchers yeah well i'm kind

of with you i think giving somebody that kind of high octane and actually quite nerve-wracking experience is a peculiar present because then you are really compelled it's a sibling it's a sibling so we all know about we all know about siblings and relationships you know interesting um sally i hope it hope it's been okay or it will be okay just because um jane is far too modest to to mention this i don't think modest the right word actually um i gave jane just in case you're wondering for her 60th birthday uh armageddon kit when i ordered it from a very well-known department store i thought it was going to be huge so i thought it was going to be the size of a big lunch box and it contained all of these tools and torches and bits and pieces and funny lights and all that kind of stuff so i

thought that's just got jane garvey written all over it and then when it turned up it's no joke it's the size of a little pin yeah box i thought you bought me some lovely earrings and what actually happened you see you got me an Armageddon kit. But, but... It's like something that comes out of a cracker. But it's in my emergency drawer with my special torch. And, I mean, I'm really gratified, actually, seriously, because when the end comes, at least you know I'll be all right. I don't think you will be.

No, I don't think I will be either. I think you're really going to need more than that. You're quite possibly right. Right, covering several topics. Best Regards, says Mary. That's quite good. Yeah, I quite like Best Reg than that. You're quite possibly right. Right, covering several topics. Best regards, says Mary. That's quite good. Yeah, I like best regards. It's all right.

With regards to having a bath in the middle of a hotel room, this was the style of the bathroom. See below, we found in almost all the hotel rooms we visited when we were in Vietnam in March. This is my husband posing in the bathroom and I'm taking the photo from the bedroom. And it is just a bathroom right in the middle of the bedroom. The second one is after we happily found the screen that

could be lowered for privacy. We've been married almost 47 years but there are still times when I enjoy a bit of privacy. Yeah quite. Yeah. I've been following the UK election with interest and the US one with dire trepidation. Sitting here in Canada, we're too close to the US and any potential violent outcome that could possibly flow over the border as it has in recent years. The first election I voted in was in the days of Mr Heath. I don't remember who I voted for. After I became a Canadian citizen,

I voted NDP, which is Labour over in Canada. I always vote as do my children and grandchildren. Don't vote, don't complain. It's a privilege. I do so enjoy my English friends here. I can be totally myself and they get my outrageous sense of humour. What do I miss most about living in the UK?

The smells, says Mary. The smell of stale beer in a pub. I know that one. The smell of the English countryside, cow patties included. And the smell of fish and chips and an old copy of the Daily Mail, Telegraph or the Evening Standard. And Mary, thank you for covering our sentiments by not including the times in that. Yes, quite. Because we'd both be absolutely horrified. It would be difficult to read that out.

Yes, it would. We must get on to our guest who's Tom Heap off of Countryfile in a moment. Abattoir's coming soon. But Joe says, you'll be glad to know we did make it back to London in time for my partner to vote. I'm not English, don't live in the UK, but I was here for the weekend. And I just wanted to say your elections were fantastic. I was glued to the telly. The channel we watched explained absolutely everything you needed to know. In the morning, the channel we watched explained absolutely everything you needed to know in the morning the results were all known then wham bam out with the old pm and in with the new one it was so dignified well i mean i actually think on friday it was quite dignified it isn't always in britain certainly not in british politics but that was good as we

said earlier and joe has absolutely loved her visit to London Fields Lido I'm not surprised it was great filled with people of all shapes and sizes swimming in their lanes from very slow to fast despite the miserable weather I think you've imagined the miserable weather Jo because it's boiling hot

I think we're talking tomorrow to our favourite weatherman aren't we? Jim Dale, social commentator and weatherman. Social commentator and weatherman Jim Dale. He's been fired up and he's going to talk to us on our Times radio show tomorrow afternoon between two and four because the weather has been shite. So we'd just like to just blame it on Jim, basically.

And we will. We'll bring him in tomorrow. But I'm glad you enjoyed the election, Jo. I wonder actually whether, because we have been teasing you about abattoirs, whether anyone listening has been to an abattoir, has worked in an abattoir, or has been on one of the school visits to an abattoir that apparently did take place in the 1980s

because we had a WhatsApp message to the radio show this afternoon from somebody saying they'd been on one. So this is all because Tom Heap from Country Fire has written a book called Land Smart. And it's really his thoughts about the land, about how much we expect from it, we get energy from it, we want shelter from it, we build homes on it. But we also need it obviously to grow our food on it. But can we do all of those things and protect the environment at the same time?'s his his big question i guess but during the course of this interview he does say and you you said you knew this about him

that he thinks every school child should visit an abattoir oh no i didn't know it oh didn't you okay oh i thought you said you'd heard him say it before no he said he said he said you might know that i've already said this before getting a bit getting a bit meta. Let's just bring in... I just nodded. You just nodded. Well, can I say I appreciated it? It's a good nod. Here is Countryfowl's Tom Heap. The big challenge is how we're going to make this finite area of land

do all the things we now want it to. And there are a couple you've alluded to already, food and shelter. Obviously, we've got space for nature absolutely critical but now we've added on top of that uh locking up carbon in terms of carbon sequestration pulling it down into the land or maybe in the form of trees uh we've added energy generation as well so solar farms or wind turbines and things like that we've got recreation in terms of our own physical and mental health. We've got warehouses, we've got roads, we've got housing estates, we've got all these different things that we're asking land to do. In sort of my environment circles, they talk about nature-based

solutions. And great, but how are we going to find the space to do it? I believe we can. The answers are within the book. All right. And it's land smart is the name of the book but obviously today a big talking point is house building and we all know that this is such an important issue for so many people but is are we going to be able to build the houses the homes we know we need without risking enormous damage to the environment we need to protect i think we can and this is without sounding too trite if it's done smartly now what I mean by that one of the guiding principles of this book is where you can multi-function land stack land uses and so if we're talking about a new housing estate new housing estates can be very good for nature they can be designed in a way that includes

a lot of natural environments within them and in fact people are conservationists often say it's not that difficult to make them better than a monoculture crop field that they replaced because that isn't that great for wildlife um so put that in i mean put solar panels on the roof and these kind of things i mean these things make a real difference. And one of the big questions I have for the incoming government, if I was allowed to ask it, was are we going to see quantity over quality?

In their sort of desperation, they've got this sort of virility test of, you know, one and a half million homes over the five years. Well, it's a bold... Why not? Go for it. Well, one of the dangers is if you attach yourself to quantity above all else and that's your success or fail metric, then the quality in terms of how energy efficient will they be, will they have their own panels on the roof,

what will they do with water, all these kind of things. Because I'm afraid the house builders have a reputation slightly of coming up behind the back of the minister and saying, well, we could give you your figures figures but maybe those regulations are a little tough and so it you know dribbles away because you mentioned solar panels there's a bit in the book where you talk about these enormous warehouses that we have at these distribution centres and how few of them have got solar panels it's absolutely shocking in my view and we've got massive acreages of new warehouses anyone who goes around this country sees them popping up like mushrooms and very very few of

them i get less than five percent have solar panels on the roof it's got to be a total no-brainer in terms of multi-functioning land and yet they were presumably they they got planning permission well they will have got planning permission they were built and nobody mentioned solar panels. It should be, in my view, it should be close to an insistence on giving them planning permission. But, I mean, there are some good reasons why they haven't and there are some bad reasons why they haven't. I'll start with the bad reasons.

There are things like, you know, it's slightly complicated who owns the building and the land and who's responsible and there's an occupier and so there's, you know, that sort of thing. There's insurance. Those struck to me as knock-your-heads-together kind of things. They should be soluble. The slightly better reason is grid. And you'll hear this a lot.

The grid will say, well, you can't put solar panels on here because we can't attach you or we can't attach you till 2035 or 2038. And that grid infrastructure is a huge holdback on many, many of these green things. Just a question that's come in for you, Tom. Please, can you ask him about flats? Why can't we build flats, more housing, and less using up of precious land? Young buyers might be able to afford them. And actually, in fairness, I should say to that listener, Tom does write about what do you think vertical living? What's it what's it called? Yeah, I mean, there isn't I have to be

straight on honest, there isn't a huge amount about the housing and intensity of housing in here because i felt it was a bit too far away from my kind of area of expertise which is more to farming and environment but it's definitely true you know being more like continental europe having more flats you get more people per per unit area no doubt about it and we but as br, we seem to be pretty attached to our little house with its little garden and space around it. Well, we are, and you say

you're out yourself as being someone who lives in relatively rural Warwickshire. You've got a garden. You're able to use it. I think you say you grow is it, what, a percentage, a third of the fruit and veg you eat? I think probably in terms of veg, it's probably about a third. In terms of staples, it would be a lot less.

On potatoes, we do pretty well. I'd say we get close to half the year on potatoes, but I'm not just a medieval diner. Are you a Maris Piper or a King Edward or what is it? My absolute favourite is pink fir apple. Really? What, potatoes or apples are we talking about? Pink fir apples.

Pink fir apples. Are they a type of potato? Absolutely. Every day is a school day. Did you know that, Fee? I recognise the pink fur, but I wouldn't have added the apple onto it, so I'm very confused now. That's what they're called. But I'd just say, you know, it takes a lot of time. But it's interesting,

you can actually, once again, my book is obsessed by the amount of things you can do per unit area. There was some research in the war that actually said per unit area, people's gardens and allotments were more productive than farmland. So if you do a lot in your home, you can actually do quite a lot. I gather there can be up to a 10, 15-year wait list for an allotment in some British cities. And you yourselves, you say you've got the land, you're able to do it, and actually grow your own is unfortunately in Britain

something that is limited to the relatively well-off, isn't it? Limited suggests it has to be like that, which I'm not quite sure is the case. There's definitely been... It's definitely been a trend, and someone I interview in this book remarks on it, that he does amazing things with his own garden and allotments and he proselytises about this in Newcastle,

but has noticed that in the allotments, the clientele has moved from the working class to the middle class. And once again, that's probably a whole other book, but it's very sort of perplexing, whether it's to do with the relative cheapness of food, which has actually got, despite the spike recently, has actually got cheaper as a proportion of our income, and whether it's about the amount of time that's required,

whether it's about the sort of tools you need or the car that you need, but it's definitely been a trend, which is, I think, most unwelcome. Yeah, that is interesting, isn't it? I wonder what the listeners have got anything to say about that. 0333 003 23 53 is the WhatsApp. You do make the bold suggestion, Tom, that we could all just simply eat less. And I looked at that and thought,

God, I don't know how people are going to go with that. But it's quite a good point, isn't it? Well, a lot of people in this area will say, look, they'll turn around and say, you can solve this whole problem if we didn't eat meat. Or you can solve this whole problem if we didn't eat meat or you can hold save this solve this whole problem if we didn't waste any food uh now i think both of those things deserve some i was going to say airtime some page time because it is true that the demands that we put on are incredibly relevant as well but i'm not someone who simply believes

you know i need to tell the world to behave like i do and everything will be fine it doesn't work like that but it is definitely true that if we ate less overall globally we produce 5 000 calories per head we only need two to two and a half we waste less we waste globally about between a quarter and a third of food and the thing with meat is it's not a very efficient converter of land. So I'm quite in favour of looking at more about eating less meat because I think that is part of the discussion as well in order to provide the land for everything we need. But as the global population grows, and it is growing, not necessarily in this country particularly,

or the birth rate here is relatively static, I think I'm right in saying, but elsewhere in the world it's really growing, we've still got the same amount of land to grow food for our ever-growing population. What happens? What happens is we need to find ways, and this is all the tools in the book, so I think we do need to change our demands. We've just spoken about that a little bit. And one particular thing, which I do want to get out there, is that I think growing crops for fuels, for biofuels, biodiesel, bioethanol, is a really bad idea. It's a very inefficient use of land. And there's a real danger, particularly as aviation talks about sustainable aviation fuels.

They could end up basically gobbling up vast amounts of land. How much land is dedicated? I'll just give you an example figure. If the aviation of America wanted to be powered by plants, it would take the entire cropland area of America. You know, it's absolutely vast if we start making crops into fuel, and it's really inefficient. If you want to make energy off the land, put a solar panel on it.

It is possibly a wind turbine. But the solar panel, as a certain area, you can measure it being 50 times, at least 50 times as efficient as any kind of crop. So don't do biofuels. That's one thing for our growing population. And the other thing is we need to use all the tools. So that's, yes, some better science,

potentially genetic modification, genetic engineering. We need to look at those tools so that, yes, there's some better science, potentially genetic modification, genetic engineering. We need to look at those things in order to get more yield off the existing area. And things like polytunnels, vertical crops, all these kind of things we need to look at. The worst thing we can do for our climate and for our nature is to take more land under the plough or under the cow. Did you vote Green? I'm not telling you how I voted. Oh.

Well, see, I would be... Would I be shocked if you didn't vote Green? I'd find it a bit odd. That's up to you to decide. OK, well... I mean, yeah, that's up to you to be shocked or otherwise. I mean, I believe passionately in a lot of these things to do with environment, but I'm also a pragmatist.

I'm not generally taking a sort of fundamental position on a lot of these things. Do you think that every primary school should have a garden? And do you think that the teaching of that connection between us and the land and the production of food should actually stay on the national curriculum all the way through a child's education would that make a difference yes i do and one of the things i i end with is saying that we need to get the whole we need to

respect far more land-based skills and these kind of um abilities because this is really tough stuff when you start balancing different priorities on your land i'm saying you need to look at for instance nature and you don't reduce your yield that becomes really complicated so yes it should stay in schools i'm also on the record of saying every school child should go to an abattoir at some stage that's probably a separate issue but actually but that's interesting do you think i'd ever eat meat again if i did go to an abattoir i think you might well i mean really i have been to an abattoir and I eat meat, but I think you've got to see how it's done and either make your peace with it or not.

But I would say a greater understanding, be it vegetables, as you're suggesting, or indeed meat, a greater understanding amongst our kids of how this stuff is done is absolutely vital. Because once you've got that disconnect between how you eat, what you eat, and where it comes from, I think it's incredibly difficult to put it back in.

It is really difficult to rebuild. And I think some of the leadership of this does need to come from government. And it's not necessarily saying, we've got all the answers. This is a conversation we need to start. We need to start respecting the skills that deliver this sort of stuff. We need to start investing in the science and technology that delivers it. And, you know, I want to see more politicians not just sort of posing in hard hats and high-vis jackets and looking roughy-toughty about metalwork in front of them, or in a computer lab. You know, AI doesn't

just mean artificial intelligence. It means artificial insemination in the farming world, AI doesn't just mean artificial intelligence. It means artificial insemination in the farming world, or indeed avian influenza. The way we've got to is that politicians have slightly drawn back from being engaged in farming and the environment, and I think that's a real shame. Richard says,

I've just harvested 10 pounds of broad beans from two square metres, bunged them in the freezer, and I've still got some of last year's left. What a champion. It sounded like he might not actually like them that much. That's one of the unfortunate things. I think courgettes are the other thing that grow like bilio.

The glut. The courgette glut. With a chilli and a bit of pasta and a bit of tomato. It starts spiralising. That's when you get into desperation, trying to turn them into spaghetti. Never spiralise. I've never gone there. Tom Heap, and he presents Countryfile and a whole load of other things for the BBC.

And he is the most outspoken of the Countryfile presenters, and I'm going to say probably the most controversial fee. He puts himself out there, he sticks his head above the parapet, and his book Landsmart is out now. I do think it's interesting about abattoirs. And as I said in that conversation, I was a vegetarian for a long time, really. Went back to meat because I quite literally wanted a steak.

I don't know. I can't. I'm not. I'm not bigging myself up for being a vegetarian or anything. I just really missed occasionally eating meat. I'd be very interested in hearing from teachers about the experience of making that connection for children because I think there's just so much joy to be found in cooking when you're tiny, in gardening, in sticking your fingers in the soil and meeting your first worm.

You know, it doesn't have to be Swallows and Amazons style, gardening and sticking your fingers in the soil and meeting your first worm you know it's not it doesn't have to be swallows and amazons style you know completely out in the country living i think we've got this very weird lack of curiosity about nature in this country which just doesn't seem right at all because we're never very far away from it you know we don't live in mega cities so uh i think teachers would know quite a lot about that and i know lots of schools who tried so hard with their outdoor classrooms and gardens and cooking schools and all that kind of stuff and it would be great to amplify their message actually if somebody offered us the chance to go to an abattoir yes i would go i would go i would go out of curiosity and because I genuinely um don't like my inability to face that part of a process that I'm I'm part of part of yeah okay well um we've

thrown the gauntlet down uh I wish we hadn't said it now to be honest but um if anybody is uh well if anyone's been to one or works in one as I said earlier, please do let us know. And we haven't got an axe to grind here, probably an unfortunate expression. We do eat meat, so we're not... And we're always willing to, you know, embrace something new. And, you know, in a similar vein, I've never had a two-and-a-half-hour aromatherapy massage. I'd be willing to give it a go, Jane.

Would you? For free, definitely. Right, Jane and Fiat, Time Start Radio, thanks for listening. Have a good evening, or whatever it is with you. Because people listen all over the place, don't they? Just say goodbye, just leave the microphone. Bye. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio.

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