Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Honestly, it makes me tingle

Episode Date: February 29, 2024

Jane has just about finished her three hour salad, and in the meantime Fi's been worrying about baths being anywhere but the bathroom. They're joined by Zak and Jules, Award-winning presenters of the podcast Life After Prison - run by the Prison Radio Association.  If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Well, welcome to Thursday's Off-Air. Do you know what we're both done to a crisp? You've been up since the crack of dawn. You did a sports interview at 9.15. That's exactly it. And then I've decided to eat healthily. So ahead of my, is it called our health today or your health tomorrow? Our future health. Our future health. Because I've signed up to this data gathering thing that's supposed to basically, basically I'm saving lives. You've also done it, haven't you? And you were quite patronising when I said I'd done it.

Sometimes I just copy you. And in this case I have again. But I've got this assessment coming up. I want to be reasonably fit when that takes place. So Jane had a salad that took her, no joke, it was eaten over the course of three hours. And every time I looked round, it hadn't really diminished. No, because there was just a huge mound of spinach leaves

on top of some other itty-bitty healthy ingredients. Yeah, it's the Caesar salads in the canteen here that slightly do my nut. I don't buy them anymore. Because there are three very juicy, crunchy croutons on top. I don't like croutons. And a couple of slices of chicken. But it is 98% slightly damp lettuce leaves. Yeah.

So the first three mouthfuls are really good, and then underneath it is just rabbit food. Could it be that that's the cheapest of the ingredients? I think you're right, sister. Yeah. But anyway, are you feeling healthier? I just feel great. Do you feel great?

I feel great. I feel absolutely great. Oh, so one of the reasons why we were both in early actually and we've done an astonishing amount of work for two old biddies today is because we've pre-recorded uh book club podcast number four so if you've been waiting on hooks of tenter to find out what everybody thinks about an elderly lady is up to no good to find out what everybody thinks about An Elderly Lady is Up to No Good by Helen Turstyn, then tomorrow is your opportunity to find out. We really love Book Club and we really love all of your opinions

about the books we've read because you're so thoughtful about it. And actually, Jane had a bit of a revelation, a bit of a revelation about this book because of your opinions. Exactly. So we are very grateful to you for just engaging with it. And we also now need suggestions for the fifth one. And we are both thinking nonfiction,

possibly even British, could be written by someone who's not female. There we are. I'm just putting it out there. So far, we've only had lady writers. I wonder whether we could find a really good biography

of beefy Botham. Well, it's funny you say that. It's the one coming out. No, but I have one. And I tell you what, if you play your cards right, I might bring it in next week and read out extracts. Oh, God, could you? Could you? Yes, OK.

I was doing a bit of thinning of the bookshelves the other day, and so I've got this kind of little collection. That's too grand a term for it. I've got some books about radio, but they are funny. So there's Simon Bates' compilation of our tunes oh yeah shall I bring that in? oh yes please

and there's a book by Steve Wright which is one of his kind of I think back in the day we would have called it zany zany radio annuals zany humour yeah right I'm just about to cough

are you? okay are you going down with something? it'd be ironic if you couldn't make your R future health physics. You'd like that, wouldn't you? No, it was just a little tickle. I've dealt with it. Marie.

Trent Dalton is a man. Trent Dalton is a man. That's correct. News incoming. Trent Dalton is a man. Thank you. But he's not British and he hasn't written non-fiction. I can't be expected to know everything.

He was the author of Boy Swallows Universe. I stand corrected. Yeah, thank God you're here, Kate. Right, Maria's been in touch. My ears pricked up when she mentioned the karate cushion, which seems to be in vogue at the moment on hotel beds. I'm fascinated by the thinking that goes behind these trends in decor and it reminded me of a malmaison hotel we

stayed at a few years ago in charterhouse square smithfield which is kind of just east of the center of london it would literally have made barry white blush the lobby was dark and had upholstery and black velvet with covered buttons at the lift had a jackettriano style framed saucy print Ladies Day at Aintree came to mind Watch it, that's coming up by the way in a couple of weeks The room was chalk and beige the bathroom red and black

and on the side a bottle of red wine chargeable to the room if the seal was broken Champagne on ice plus strawberries dipped in chocolate were also on offer I was recently doing a recce on places to stay in Yorkshire and realised another trend had crept in, the Victorian or copper bath at the end of the bed

or on a plinth in the window or anywhere except in a bathroom. We'd love to hear if anyone really does prefer doing their ablutions in public whilst knocking back a flute of Prosecco. Or is this all part of today's obsession with production line seduction, which is just today's obsession with production line seduction which is just a great phrase production line seduction and I know what you mean Marie that that bath in the bedroom

don't drives me bonkers that's that's a thing now is it is such a thing weird yeah because I don't want to have a bath in front of people I love having baths for the very reason that it's a as far as I'm concerned, a private activity. Yeah. Although back in the day, of course, not that long ago, big butch fellas who'd played very aggressive games together would then hop in the bath. They would have a shared bath, wouldn't they?

Yes. But if anybody does like having a bath in their bedroom, I just don't, you know, there's always, you know, if you're staying in a hotel room with somebody, you know, inevitably they're scrolling on a phone or they might be unpacking a suitcase and it's not romantic at all uh and then you just you drip all over the nice carpet or whatever i just think that you can't find the robe with those studio i hate the hangers that imply that you'd steal them if they weren't in their funny little plugs. It's just I've paid

a lot of money for this hotel room. I'm not nicking your coat hangers. No. No, I wouldn't. Have you ever taken a dressing gown? No. Because you just know that... Not even when you're on the travel show? No, you just know that they would track you down and charge you £675. There is that, isn't there?

And you can get them in Matalan now. Really nice ones for about £7.99. Well, isn't there? Yeah, and you can get them in Matalan now. Really nice ones for about £7.99. Yeah. Well, there we are. I just want to leap to the defence of my poor, unfortunate cat because I'm horrified to read that this email is entitled Dora, help with peeing on bed. No.

No. No, no, nope. It's Barbara. She's in the frame. My Dora has not done anything of this nature since she had a very nasty tummy bug when she was very young. And since then, she's been very careful with her habits. But there's a very long and thoughtful email here

that I think you probably need to read in your own private time fee. It is from Fern. And she's really put thought in it. She's got lots of ideas. You definitely need to read it. Yeah, I have read it and I um you definitely need to read it yeah i did i have read it and i will take it home and read it again but it it astounded me because at the beginning uh the pet behaviorologist as fern is yeah suggests that barbara is peeing on my bed because

she likes me because it's where my scent is and i have to confess i hadn't thought about that at all i thought she was going upstairs thinking, I don't like that woman. So it comes from a place of love. I'm going to stick with it. More animal news has come our way from Julia in Brisbane. By the way, I'm still

so excited when we get an email from someone who's not in the United Kingdom. It doesn't matter where in the world you are. Honestly, it makes me tingle. It's just brilliant. Julia says, sorry Jane, hope you're not inundated with emails from Down Under listeners to say koalas are not bears, they are marsupials.

P.S. I went to school in the UK in the early 70s and I was a member of the Tufty Club, which was about road safety, sounds similar to Tinger and Tucker. Now there I have been having a wrestle, mental wrestle with myself since yesterday's episode. Julia, I think the Tufty Club was what I meant.

The Tufty Club was all about, it was a squirrel who was very active in the road safety world. And I don't think Tinger and Tucker were about road safety. I think I got confused with Tufty. Okay, so what would Tinga and Tucker have been? I think they were just your imagination. I think, no, they existed because why would I have thought of that? Well, yeah, you're right.

They were just a couple of, well, what I now know to be cuddly marsupials going about their business and I think they may have had adventures. Okay. I'm sure that somebody will be able to fill us in. That's ding-donging somebody's bells somewhere. It will be. Julia says she wakes up early and listens to the podcast.

It drops about 4 a.m. Brisbane time. Well, good morning, Julia. For heaven's sake. Are we allowed to do that? I don't know. I don't know. Sorry. Frances is in Macclesfield.

Is that giving you the same tingle? Not quite. Although I have taken a train from Macclesfield Station within living memory. Now you see, you're going to get us into trouble with our lovely UK listeners. Oh, Fern's apologised. She says, in my usual muddled way,

I got the cat's names confused. Oh, thank God. I know that Barbara lives with Thee and Dora allows Jane to live with her. Correct. Thank you, Fern. Francis, who is from Macclesfield, says, with above two children,

both living in London, I'm also Avanti-averse. So this is about the birth of the children. I've just listened to your podcast with an email referring to a tear when giving birth. I can still get quite angry when I'm reminded of my

experience of being stitched up after my second baby was born. She's 33 now. My first birth was quite lengthy and ended with an episiotomy and a Von Tews delivery. It was a bit traumatic. He had a large head and I really sympathise with your listener as I am also sharply reminded every Christmas that hat lasts seconds. I subsequently had a lot of issues with pain and discomfort. My daughter arrived 20 months later because my records mentioned my problems. I was told by the midwife that she couldn't stitch the tear I'd had during the birth so I'd have to wait for a doctor. I awaited prostrate. He arrived 90 minutes later with barely any conversation I was put

in stirrups and he got on with his business it hurt and suddenly he loudly uttered between my legs stop flinching you can't feel it I was so shocked and just wanted the whole thing over and I regret to this day that all I said in a very quiet voice was I can it was horrible incidentally she was born with a cord very tightly around her neck and it had that all I said in a very quiet voice was, I can. It was horrible. Incidentally, she was born with a cord very tightly around her neck and it had to be cut after her head was delivered, but doesn't have any problems with things around her neck. Good to know that.

But do you know what? That's just such a, you're in such a vulnerable position and you must have been knackered and in quite a lot of pain and you'd waited for an hour and a half. And for someone to say that you can't feel it when clearly you were feeling it because you wouldn't have flinched if you couldn't feel it it's just mean and you know I'm not surprised it still makes you angry and I think that's why it's probably quite good to you know for all of us to get it out because I think lots of women do carry it around with them for years there is never an opportunity you know

I think you tell your birth stories don't you a bit afterwards with new mums you know when you're waiting to have the baby Wade and whatever but I've definitely I just parked mine I didn't you know endlessly refer to it but I think for a lot of people uh it's a source of um of some mental kind of uh hurt actually so I hope that just telling your story yeah i hope so too has made you feel a little bit better because we have to acknowledge and i think it's okay to say this for all the brilliance and the compassion of so many members of the medical and nursing professions sometimes they say and do unforgivable things yeah because the nice thing to say would be

are you okay you know you know do you need more pain relief or whatever but also it just doesn't make sense stop flinching you can't feel it doesn't make sense because you wouldn't flinch if you couldn't feel it i want to bring in this listener and um she has been kind enough to tell us about what she describes as an unpleasant memory and i salute her courage in giving us this a slice of life um i'm not going to mention your name, but I do admire you. Following the birth of my first child, I both tore and was cut. So I found myself post-delivery lying on my back with my legs in those stirrups with a piece of fabric with a discreet opening between my legs. The doctor told me I needed some stitches. He went on to say that there were some students

with him and would I mind if they observed. For some reason, unclear to me now, I did agree. Well, the procedure took ages and I thought perhaps they were all being encouraged to have a go. However, it went on for so long I enquired at one point if they were trying to recreate the Bayer tapestry. The next day the nurse in charge asked me if I wanted to go to the bathroom. Well, I did get out of bed but trying to walk was just excruciating and I was reduced to tears. The nurse said that didn't sound right and asked to take a look. And when she did, she said this. Oh, I see the problem. They've included one of your hemorrhoids into the stitching. A quick snip of her scissors and the problem was solved. I was sore but relieved.

Yeah, I mean, that's, it's unbelievable. And sometimes can we just acknowledge the courage of women? Because going to the loo after childbirth, however junior has emerged, particularly for a number two, is a very trying experience. And we don't even know whether this was a two or a one, but either way, she was on her way to the loo. And that's just, honestly, it doesn't bear thinking about, but we all are.

And I hope that it's been cathartic to let that one out too. A couple of you said that you were doing oral history things yourselves. This one comes from Claire. It's a lovely suggestion. I'm really interested to hear you talking about oral histories. I love the Listening Project, and I think it's a really suggestion i'm really interested to hear you talking about oral histories i love the listening project and i think it's a really important piece of work it does still exist in the library the british library and they've got an open archive so if you ever want to listen to any conversations you just head along to their website and you can find them all there and they're all

beautifully kind of curated and collated as well by dialect or by subject matter and I think probably some stuff is still up on the BBC website too. I'm in my 50s and studying to be a psychotherapist as an aside I would say that training to do counselling and psychotherapy as a second career is a thoroughly rewarding thing to do. As part of our study we were required to complete our own genogram that's a family tree with the help of surviving family members and claire went on to do it as an interview with both of her 30 something parents individually about their family memories i audio recorded the conversations on my phone once i got them talking about their childhood parents grandparents and even great grandparents

there was no stopping them on all manner of topics. We talked about what life was like, mental health, behaviour expected of them as children, what they ate, what toys they played with, you name it, they talked about it. And my mum even revealed her own postnatal depression, which had never been mentioned before. Because I was required to do the exercise, it wasn't a problem to initiate with them but they were actually both thrilled to be asked and Claire says I genuinely believe this is an endeavour anyone can simply undertake by inviting relatives to contribute

and you can do it very easily on a mobile phone I'd love it if you could pass on this idea to your listeners Great idea I agree Claire and I think also most people do exactly that they might be a bit reluctant at the beginning, but then you can't shut them up. Yeah. I mean, actually, it's just lovely.

We know how lovely it is to talk about ourselves. I'll correct that. I know how lovely it is to talk about myself. No, it is lovely. And for someone to be interested, because look, everyone's got a story. Yeah. And the longer you've been around, the more stories you're going to have. And how wonderful as well to just record all those details, what you ate and, you know, what your friends were like and what games you played and stuff. Because that's the stuff that actually your kids want to hear.

You know, they're probably not interested in, you know, jobs that Uncle John had or whatever. You know, whatever tends to be recorded, actually. It's the detail of daily life isn't it so good suggestion claire and and i'm glad also that you found a kind of second career in later life uh anonymous says here in sunny lincoln we have the ibcc the international bomber command center for the past couple of years they've been recording the experience of former bomber command men and women from the war years it It's all digitised and is up on their website.

To this end, I can now listen to my dad and my mum offering her views. So there you go. There's another little bit of world experience, life experience, that is going to be lost to us, I don't know, in the next, well, realistically, in the next decade. And it's very important. Rachel, love your show, always listen. But after hearing the interview with Davina McCall,

you both implied you'd had enough of hearing about the menopause. Did we? I think what we were both trying to express, certainly what I was trying to express was, yeah, sometimes I do think I have heard enough about it. I'm still going through it, I think. I just don't want to be identified by it, lumbered with it as the only thing that hoves into view

whenever women of our age are ever discussed. And I think the point that I was trying to make was that we may be talking about it a lot at the moment, but we won't always talk about it a lot. It won't be on the front pages forever. I mean, personally, I think it is a really good thing it be on the front pages forever. Personally, I think it is a really good thing it's on the front pages now. But there won't be this volume of chat about

it. It's because it's new to be able to talk about it so much. It's a big part of the world where you can bet your life it's never been mentioned. Actually, I'm not sure we decried a conversation about it totally. Rachel says, only 5% globally and 14% of women nationally take HRT

because it still isn't talked about enough. And I know that to be true. I think Rachel's absolutely spot on there. And I think that was something I said to Davina, that actually I've always thought that HRT was largely used and demanded by gobby middle-class women. And there are plenty of other women who could hugely benefit from it, who either haven't got the time in their lives to try and get an appointment. And then once they're in the doctor surgery, for whatever reason, don't get

given HRT. I do think that's a massive issue. Yeah. And we have talked about this before, that actually an awful lot of doctors don't really know what questions to ask and then what to prescribe. So for a while, and I think this has been overtaken actually by young people, but for a while the menopausal woman was the most prescribed demographic in the country for antidepressants because that was the immediate go-to for a doctor. So it's fantastic that's changed.

But also that disability thing, presence because that was the immediate go-to for a doctor so it's fantastic that's changed but also that disability thing which was the story about the menopause that had put it on the front pages that under employment law if your symptoms were severe enough then the menopause could be classed as a disability i think it was reported the wrong way because it did lead lots of people to say don't look at us as being disabled but it's not what this that's not what the story is the story just means um that if you if your symptoms are so severe the area of employment law that you would fall into in order to get what you need from your employer is disability law because there isn't any other kind of medical part of employment law that fits the bill. So I got a bit annoyed with the reporting of it,

because it wasn't true that we were being told that we are disabled, having a menopause. So it's important to get that right. It is. It is important. We should say we have some great guests today, actually, two young people who are award-winning podcasters, and their podcast is about something most of us don't know much about, life both in prison and then afterwards, how you kind of rebuild your life after you've been released.

And there were loads of questions we could have asked them. We slightly ran out of time. I could have talked to the two of them for ages because they were brilliant, and you can hear from them in a couple of minutes' time. This is important about something you were talking about earlier in the week, about people being reluctant to appear in family photos. And it's from a listener who says, I wanted to join in and say, yes, yes, yes to this. Get in photos, take group family photos. After my son was born, I fell into the trap of taking hundreds of photos of him and not much else.

On Mother's Day 2022, we celebrated with four generations, including my granny, who'd just turned 90. We were saying our goodbyes, I had my coat on, ready to leave. Then I realised we hadn't taken any group photos that day. I took my coat off and got my granny, my mum, myself and my one-year-old son together for a photo on the sofa. I will be forever grateful I did that because my granny died very suddenly from Covid a week later. We had no idea it was going to be the last time

we were all together and you never do know so for Pete's sake take a photo. I think you'd have liked my granny she says. She was a little bit like an English bulldog. Short and stout and nobody messed with her. She was incredibly loyal. She once came out of the en suite in her high rise flat and accidentally flashed the builders working on the building opposite. She was unfazed by this and gave them a cheeky shimmy of the shoulders before dashing back inside. Love the sound of her. She sounds amazing. Emma, thank you very much for that. That's great. Lucky builders. right uh let's bring in zach and jules they are award-winning presenters of the podcast life after prison it is run by the prison radio association and its fifth series launched yesterday now um there's so much content in these podcasts they

are really good aren't they oh they're fascinating and they're from every perspective yep and uh they're very engaging hosts and do you know what i would say before listening to this is please don't worry we didn't have time to address this in the interview uh they both acknowledge their crimes don't they and it's important to do that they're not victimless crimes they talk about this quite a lot uh in the early editions of the podcast. So I did feel when we were talking to them during the interview that it's not because we had kind of ignored that point that it's not included. We just didn't have time. It really was a time limited conversation, but it was great to meet them. Zach is one of the presenters. He was given three different

sentences for robbery and drug offences. Jules is his co-host. She spent two and a half years inside for grievous bodily harm. So Jules told us how long it had been since she was released from jail. So I was released in November 2019. Right and Zach when was the last time you spent a night behind bars? I was actually released four years ago today. Four years ago today? Yeah. So it was between 2018 and 2020. Right. Now I know that you made the decision I think that you didn't want this life anymore during your second term in prison. Yes. Then there was another one because basically the authorities caught up with you for an offence that was committed a while back. Precisely. So how did that mindset of your third prison term, when it was the last

place you wanted to be, what was that like? That was like a baptism of fire. Because it's like, are you now going to stick to your guns? Are you this changed, renewed character that you are? Because I'm back in an environment where I wasn't the same person I am today back then. So I'm coming across staff and fellow inmates that remember the old me. And a significant moment was when a few guys were like, you know what, you're actually different now. You're not the same Zach that we once knew. And that change in mindset and that coming back into that environment allows you to, one, be somewhat of a positive influence in there

and kind of change the narrative. So when you're having discussions with your fellow inmates, it's not, oh, what are we going to do when we come out in terms of the criminal world? It's what are we going to do productively and contribute to society? And you, I mean, four years on, you're sitting in this hugely glamorous location here, and it must seem a bit peculiar, but what progress has been made in that four years?

That seems remarkable. In four years boy, so quite a lot so far. So I've got my own organisation supporting young people that are at risk of entering the criminal justice system or they've come into contact with the criminal justice system. And we support them to make better decisions, to educate themselves and return into the workforce, as well as education. So that's one thing there.

I'm part of a charity that supports young people in East London to build social enterprises, tackling issues in their community, utilising their lived experience. And that's with SocialArk. And also working with the PRA, you know, being a professional within the criminal justice system, supporting people who have been where we've been, using our lived experience and supporting people to make better decisions and navigate what life is like once you're released your podcasts are hugely entertaining and they've won awards and many congratulations don't you go getting too good please um but you know what's so interesting about it as well is just to hear that first person experience of life in jail to try and take away some of the prejudices about it actually and. And Jules, I was quite struck by something you said, though,

about how little you felt when you first left prison, that you wanted to ever tell people the reality of your experience. So why now be able to do it amplified, you know, so hundreds of thousands of people can know this about you that's a very good question I think um yeah you're right when I got out I didn't want to tell anyone um I think there's no like guidebook rule book on how you deal with uh getting out of prison so you're kind of left to your own devices and your family and your friends the people around you and their advice which it's funny because they haven't been through it. So

you're taking advice from your loved ones. I love them very much. And I appreciate their, um, I take what they say on board, you know, it means so much to me, but they haven't actually been through it. So it's quite hard for them to even know what I should do. They're just, they just want the best for me. Um, and it's just that fear of being judged. And I, I agreed with it, you know, I was the one that decided to take on their advice. And, you know, keep it to myself, not really tell many people, I think, when you go through work, and you're getting jobs, and your bosses are telling you to, you know, kind of keep it to yourself, and people judge, like no one really needs to know. And that is very true.

Not everybody that you come across needs to know that you've been to prison. But it kind of builds this fear of being able to talk about it to anybody. And what happens then, especially when, I don't know, I think for everybody, but I was quite young. You just, you need to talk, I think. And I think people need to talk as well. They need to be able to relate. But if there's a stigma around even being to go into prison, it makes it kind of impossible to speak. So I think the moment I did the podcast,

it allowed me to actually express my own journey and be able to help other people. And now that, you know, I've come out as a prisoner, you know, I've been to prison and now I you know I've come out as a prisoner you know I've been to prison um and now I get to give back and help people that have been in similar situations as me and be able to help family and friends that have been through it like my family and friends did um now you know I I'm not I'm not ashamed um and I want to continue to to help and continue to express how I felt so that it, yeah, continues to help people.

What is, I'm sure you've talked about this, you two, the difference in the experience of male prisons and female prisons because there aren't that many women in British prisons than there ever have been. There aren't very many female prisons. Are conditions, they can't be as bad as they are in some male prisons? Well, tell me. Well, you know, prisons are very different.

So it depends on what prison you go to. And some people might actually only be in one prison their whole sentence and might have, you know, really nice, clean, new jail, let's say. Zach has been to a fair few. I've been to a few yeah and it varies it varies from prison to prison um you know you've got your victorian prisons um and obviously with wear and tear there's some issues there um but you've got like the newer prisons that are privately run um and they tend to be in better condition. But in terms of... The thing about conditions that really matter most is

are the conditions for rehabilitation nurtured and supported? That's what really matters in terms of conditions because at the end of the day, being in prison is a punishment. But what is the result of that sentence? I think that's what matters. But both men and women have... I went to four different women jails

and there were significant, like, a significant difference between some and the others. So I think, yeah, Zach's right. I think, are these conditions anyway, even the better kind of conditions, are they like an environment of rehabilitation or what is it kind of environment of environment you know it's i know that you both give credit actually to some of the people who work with you when you were inside and

there's a there was a gym instructor i think yeah who really i mean really came well not to your rescue jewels but kind of rebuilt you in a way and gave you confidence he did and you know what i was speaking to him earlier because we i literally just went back into um one of the prisons that i was i was released from this was an open prison and that's where he was his name's Neil Layton I'll shout him out and you know afterwards we did a I referenced him on the podcast you know of spotlighting people that have really helped you on your journey and you know he he's really modest about it so when he listened to it he was, you know, he's really modest about it. So when he listened to it, he was like, you know,

just like, wow, you're giving me so much credit. But he really does deserve it. And there are so many different kinds of people in authority within the prison system that can either really help you or really not. And I got really blessed and lucky to land in that prison with him, helping me get my level three PT

and showing me how to succeed on the outside. Well, you're now a personal trainer, aren't you? Yeah, yeah, got that. And a good one too. Thank you very much. There was something I really learned a lot from an episode I listened to last night about IPP sentences. Now, you cover a whole range of topics, I should say, on these podcasts

and they are really accessible. You know, people who've never been anywhere near the prison system IPP sentences. Now, you cover a whole range of topics, I should say, on these podcasts, and they are really accessible. You know, people who've never been anywhere near the prison system can get a lot out of these. An IPP is a sentence for public protection. Yes, an indeterminate sentence for the protection of the public. Indeterminate is the important word. I know they were actually abolished in 2012, but there are still people serving them. abolished in 2012, but there are still people serving them. Yeah. So the episode about IPP, we spoke to two people, well, three included Lord Blunkett. We interviewed Lord Blunkett.

Yes. Because he was in government at the time, part of the cabinet at the time that the sentences were created and used. And the thing about IPP is that even though it's abolished it wasn't abolished retrospectively so like you said there are still a couple thousand people serving sentences within the prison system that have almost 90% of them are at tariff or past tariff so what it is is is that the challenge is now how do you navigate their parole hearings how do you assess whether they're ready to be released into the into society again and there's a conversation going on now with the now with the prison minister and the justice secretary about how they're going to tackle this issue because um it has been by the court of by the european court of human rights it's been deemed as an inhumane sentence.

So it's just about now, what are the steps going forward in order to rectify somewhat of a mistake? And Lord Blunkett's own words is that it is a mistake and he feels very bad about it and he's doing all he can to rectify this. But I mean, we are talking, I think in some cases, and I hope this isn't an extreme example, people who stole a mobile phone 12, 15 years ago who are still in prison.

Yes, that's an example actually of one person who actually, yeah, did steal a mobile phone. But this is the thing, the sentence was supposed to be applied. The application of the sentence wasn't clear. It wasn't supposed to be for those kind of offences. They were supposed to be for the more serious offences but yeah you are right

It's just about how it was applied by the judges so the judges in the system weren't sure about the application of it but the criteria given is quite vague Right I mean I think it is horrifying and I think people

who might not have heard of them will be really quite disturbed when they find out about these things. And I appreciate what you said about Lord Blunkett. I know he has apologised but he's trying to do something about it. What topics are you covering in this series, Jules, that you haven't done before?

Very good question. So we always have incredible guests. We like to have a variety of people. Are we allowed to... Don't give too much away. So we have... We have a gentleman who was actually part of... Do you remember when the London Bridge attack happened?

Oh, yeah. He was part of prisoners that were there that day at a criminal justice event. And he was part of the people that actually took down the terrorists so he's come on the show to explain Steve Gallant you probably might have heard his book he had a book out recently

Road to London Bridge or something like that and that was on his first day out wasn't it that was his first day out in I can't remember a few years a good few years yeah just incredible yeah just coming out of prison and then getting yourself into this you know like stopping a terrorist it's quite an incredible story so definitely listen up for that one and we just launched our first episode of series five today and that's with uh david navarro yeah or

delinquent nation if you've heard of his podcast. He actually started his podcast Within Prison and with the aim of actually showing the reality of prison not the glorified version to really get through to young people and people in society that you know it's not a glorified thing to be in prison and to change the narrative on that so yeah. Such a difficult question because we've only got about a minute left but what would have been the thing that someone could have said to both of you that would have stopped you from committing a crime that put you in jail great question i'd probably automatically go to how much how many other people are affected by your sentence and not just you your family and your friends and you know my like my, bless her, she really, really suffered

and I would just never, never would have wanted that. So I probably, off the top of my head, my first thing, probably that. I'm with you on that, Jules. But just to add, maybe if it was, what do you want to do with yourself? If this is a career that you can take, go, this is the way to do it. You know, give me a blueprint, a plan something that can be action

It's well well worth a listen it's called Life After Prison you can search it wherever you get your podcasts the hosts are Zach and Jules and those podcasts are organised by the Prison Radio Association which actually produces some really good stuff doesn't it they often win awards

They do So I don't think I don't think we're not even up for a gong what it's here Jane don't worry I've got room on my shelf no this is it very very small shelf I make it smaller every shrink it. Have a half decent weekend. I'm back super healthy on Monday and can't wait to tell people

about the improvement in my circumstances. I've had so many runner beans over the last couple of days. Oh, Lordy. And I should be reading aloud on Monday's podcast

from Beefy Botham's book and Fee has got something from Simon Bates. Simon Bates. Yes. Our tune. Everyone a winner. Was he much loved from Simon Bates. Simon Bates. Yes. Our tune. Yep, everyone a winner.

Was he much loved, Simon Bates? I think he was just Simon Bates. He was Symes, wasn't he? He was big, big, deep-voiced Symes. Yep. Always wore a blazer to work, didn't he? Maybe we should think of doing that, a nice regimental tie.

Then we might win an award. Don't forget, Book Club podcast tomorrow. Thanks so much for taking part and your suggestion is welcome for the next one. Have a lovely weekend. Ta-ra. And Julia, get up! Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run. Or running a bank.

Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that. A lady listener. I'm sorry.