Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Hot Crotch Snippers (with Fred Trump)

Episode Date: October 15, 2024

Jane and Fi consider alternative careers and the result is slightly worrying... we're not quite sure they should give up the day jobs just yet. They also chat beans, quilting and submariner surgeries. Plus, Fred Trump, nephew of Donald Trump, discusses his book ‘All In The Family: The Trumps and How We Got This Way’. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Could I be, well, just somebody who specialises in vasectomies, does them cheaply and without training. DIY vasectomy! In my own van! The back of the van! That would be great! This episode of Off Air with Jane and Fee is sponsored by Norwegian Cruise Line. Have you ever thought of taking a cruise? Well, it's crossed my mind. Tell me a bit more about it.

Well, with Norwegian Cruise Line you can travel to iconic locations across Northern Europe, the Mediterranean and the Greek Isles, unpacking only once and exploring multiple European destinations in one holiday. They offer exclusive go-local shore excursions as well as an immersive programme of on-board experiences. I can't lie, I'm intrigued by up to 21 dining options on a single ship. Well Jane, their fleet has so many unique bars, lounges and restaurants. They also have fantastic entertainment, shows, facilities on board. You wouldn't be short of things to do. Plan ahead to discover your dream Europe 2025 cruise. It's certainly one way to beat the winter blues.

Experience more at sea with Norwegian Cruise Life. For more information call 0333 222 6513. Contact your travel agent or visit ncl.com. I say always buy a squeezy bottle. Yes, absolutely. It makes life so much easier. Well it does doesn't it. Now I just want to air this before we move on. I've just been a bit triggered by Al Pacino, which isn't something I necessarily expected to say, but he's promoting something or other as people tend to do. I mean there's no shame in it because where would we be without people promoting something or other. But Al Pacino has given an interview to the BBC and the headline is, Al Pacino says it's fun to be a new dad at 84. And that's what he's

written a memoir. He's written a memoir. Yes. I thought he'd be very busy with the little one. Although sleepless nights, Jane. I didn't even have time to read a book, let alone write one. He has found the time. Has he? Well done, Al. Yeah. He explains that part of the reason he wanted to commit his life to paper was becoming a

dad for a fourth time last year. Oh, to be fair, he was only 83 when he had this baby. It's a boy, now 16 months old. He is called Roman. And this book is a way of guaranteeing that the new baby will have the opportunity to learn about his dad's story. Okay, so that's really sad, isn't it? Because you got to write a book, knowing that you will not live to see your child into their adult life. I mean, also, I'm here to tell Al that in my experience, kids don't give a toss about

your story. If you've not read your book. Actually not that engaged. It's our book. They're not that engaged. And it suits you. In my stories. They're really not. So I bless Al. They will come to it, Jane. I'm more concerned about Al. Yes, okay. That he thinks that Roman is going to pick up his dad's memoir.

Anyway, I'll just press on for a little bit. Puccino, who's never married, is no longer with Roman's mother. She's a film producer called Nor Al Fallah, but they are co-parenting fee. However, from what he says, most of the day-to-day involvement is limited to online contact. He does text me from time to time, says Al. Well, that's a very clever 16 month old. Yes, I tell you what, he's an absolute prodigy this kid. Everything he does is real, says Al. Everything he does is interesting to me, so we talk. I play the harmonica with him on the other video thing and we have made this kind of contact. It's fun. Oh, I find that very tragic, Jane.

It's pathetic, isn't it, really? And there's a child involved here and there's a whole human life involved. And we obviously don't know how things will turn out for young Roman and I wish him the best. I'm just going to say I'm not sure it's the easiest start in life, is it? No, I don't think that is at all. And you just know that you're going to experience loss very early in your life, don't think that is at all and you just know that you're going to experience loss very early in your life, don't you? If you're going to make somebody else experience loss

very early in their life if you have a baby at that age. Not something that you and I are going to have to consider. It isn't. No, but I could still be fertile, Jane. How many years is it since the immaculate ovulation? I think that was so spooky, I was 49. And there was still a chance. That makes me feel a bit ill.

It shouldn't make you feel ill. It's just... No, I feel ill considering the fact that I could have a six-year-old now. Actually, I would struggle to have a six-year-old now. I'm very tired. And this is a serious point to this with these old conches having these kids. You know, he's not getting up in the night, is he? No. I mean, they're not actually together anymore. So there's no reason, I suppose, why he should be disturbed in the night.

But Roman must come to stay from time to time, one would assume. Anyway, you're right. But do let us know. I mean, because I live in an all-female household, there are so many mood swings in my house. And I'm absolutely certain I can tell what's happening in the sort of... In the ovulation calendar. I totally can. house and I'm absolutely certain I can tell what's happening in the sort of... In the ovulation calendar.

Yeah, I totally can. I really can because... So it's... Oh dear, it can be exhausting. I'm not part of the picture anymore, I need to make very clear. Well, I'm still there, but I'm not part of the... You're an observer. I'm an observer of the hormonal ups and downs. I wish that more was said about the deterioration of sperm in older men because we really get it as women in terms of when is our prime time to have children and that terrible kind of, oh you're slightly jeopardising the baby if you have a baby very late and all of these

terrible things might happen to you and there just is a deterioration when men at a certain age in what they're producing but that's not really talked about is it because they can they can still manage to help in the conception of a child but I'd like that conversation to be louder maybe we could do a little special feature on how poor is your sperm. Shall we do celebrity? Oh no! Oh come on. Do you know what? That sadly, Jane, you and I know that is the only programme that we would get commissioned

in a sea of travelogues. So the latest one that I saw advertised is... Who's gone travelling? Is Patti McGuinness and some bloke called Wilf. I don't even know who he is, a Wilf. They're off exploring the agenda for middle-aged men, which in the trailer, in the sizzle reel, just seems to involve them stripping off and leaping into cold water and at various points having mud kind of slathered on them. There's a lot of fist bumping and back slapping. And yet again,

it's two blocks. Go off and tell us about the world. I've never done a fist bump. Do you want to try one now? No, I guess I don't think I just think it's so on me. It is quite on you. And also given your dyspraxia, I think there's a high high chance you'd miss. What's the matter? Do you want us to try and do one now? I don't even know what you do. So, okay, you make a fist and then we're going to bump.

And that's in celebration of what? Life. Life, okay. Great. Terrific. And our commercial success. But we return to that more than I thought I would. It won't be the last.

We return to our all too familiar theme of television just being insanely interested in the progress of men. They've not had it easy for you. No, you know, we've got the Times radio bus, we could have gone travelling in that. Oh, I love, did you see the email from a listener with just the picture of Maggie Smith with the van? This is where, the late great day Maggie Smith made her film The Lady in the Van, the Alan Bennett story that was made into a film. And I'm very grateful to, is it Gayley? Yes, I think it is. Or maybe just Gail. Maybe her middle name is a Y. It is just Gail. Gail, lovely. Thank you, Gail. Just listen to the 14th of October 2024 episode with your description of the Times van and this is what I imagine. It's

not far off actually. It's a picture of Maggie Smith midway through her attempt to paint the van that she lived in, in the garden. Is it Front Path, wasn't it? It was. Yeah. And she's painting it banana yellow. So I'm gonna hand this to Eve as well and she can photograph this, if that's all right Eve, could you pop this up on the Insta? So look what I've done, I've just written Times Radio across it and I think that's absolutely,

it's bringing back the Cheltenham vibes right away. Oh, teary me, conversations regarding what you do comes in from Bridget who says, "'Dear Jayden Fee, I'm now retired, but back in the 1980s, I got so fed up with pompous men asking me if I worked. I replied that I worked in the Radio 4 costume department. That's lovely. It led me to think, Bridget, what profession would you choose?

I mean, if you could just, I think we should just create an off air kind of personality bank that people can dip into and next time we're sitting opposite a flaming ball who takes 45 minutes to ask us what we do we can all answer the same thing. What would it be? I'm just thinking. I mean you could try something ludicrous like lumberjack or in my I'm talking ludicrous for me so lumberjack, tree surgeon. Well, you said I was dressed like a lumberjack or in my gear. I'm talking ludicrous for me. So lumberjack, tree surgeon. Well, they said I was dressed like a lumberjack yesterday. Yeah, well, that's because I just

come from the country. So what could I be? Well, just somebody who specializes in vasectomies does them does them cheaply and without training. In my own van. That would be great. So can we put that out that everyone can say that? What would I call it? Sniptastic. You could just call it chop off. Okay. Right, well this is going places. It really is. Yeah, that's what I'd say. What would you say? I would just say that I was in a witness protection scheme. I can't answer any further questions. Sometimes I'm quite liked. That clears the way for them just to blither on, doesn't it? You'd let them off the hook a bit. No, but they would anyway.

They would anyway, you're right. That's the thing. I mean, it doesn't matter that you say. I mean, that's what's so genius about the Victoria Wood sketch, isn't it? Where she's still running the UN and there's still no supplementary question. Back to my bowls. Actually, let's just mention Chris who says, we enjoyed your chat with Anne and Brenda. They were two lovely women. They were. We said it yesterday, I think, but it's worth just emphasizing. Brenda just doesn't do the part. She cares about Vera Stanhope and I was actually really touched by that. I thought it was great. Those of us who love Vera too, really loved Brenda for her love for Vera. Does that make sense? Does any of that make sense?

Sounds like a great party. Some of it made sense, some of it sounded a little bit sapphic. Chris says that they were a bit angry by the prominence of the B. Johnson book. Oh, I love this. Good work, sisters. Yes, they went about their business in the bookshop and threw a few books on top of the, in my view, preposterously entitled Unleashed. The books they've put on top include What a Shame by Abigail Bergstrom, Naked Portrait, a memoir of Lucien Freud by Rose Boyd, The List of Suspicious

Things by Janey Godfrey, which is a very good book, and Dark Matter, a ghost story by Michelle Paver. I hadn't realized that on the back cover of the B. Johnson book is he's on a motorbike. The old twit. No crash helmet because he's a Marty Maverick. Well, that fries your sperm as well, doesn't it? Allowing your crotch to get too hot.

Lots of men who have to get off their bikes in midlife in order to facilitate conception. Well I may be changing the name of my company to Hot Crotch Snickers. God knows what they're going to call this podcast. Eve will have her work cut out. No pun intended. Oh dear, right. Are you thinking of using a large manicure set or just the small one? Probably just the small one because my hands are tiny. Why don't you get out of a cracker? Just sit still love.

It's worth saying my sight isn't great but I will do good prices. Roll up. So, roll up! Anyway, woe betide anyone who doesn't ask me any man who doesn't ask sufficient questions because they'll be getting it in the neck. What would you use for an anaesthetic? One of my anecdotes. I'd use one of Boris's. Yeah, actually, yes, that's a good idea. Knock you out for longer. Right, this comes in from Sally and we were talking about the listening project yesterday. Sally, here we go.

Serious bit. Serious bit. Serious bit. Public service announcement coming. I'm going to revert to my Radio 4 voice. If you download the StoryCorps app, they have got a fantastic section on how to record a conversation. So the listening project was based on StoryCorps with permission of David Isay. Can I just ask how is StoryCorps spelt? Thank you for asking that sister because it does have a P in it. That's what I was wondering. So it's StoryCorps as we would say. So that's story, C-O-R-P-S. But in America is pronounced StoryCorps or obviously StoryCorps. That

helped didn't it? So if you just search out StoryCorps or obviously StoryCorps. That helped, didn't it? So if you just search out StoryCorps... Because you're banned from doing Australian accents, you won't for that one. Yes. I think people will want me to be back in Perth. If you download the app or just look on the website and you go to the section about recording your own conversation, it's just got a really, really good kind of 10-part guide to what makes a very decent chat. And certainly if you're looking to use something in schools, I think that will do the trick. So I wish you the best of luck Sally and maybe keep in touch and let us know how it goes. Yes and we want to give a tote. They are increasingly rare as we made clear

yesterday but I couldn't resist this one from an emailer called Emma who says, I've been listening to you since before the pandemic. I've always enjoyed the show and you've kept me company through the last couple of years, helping me to feel a bit more connected to the UK while I was living abroad. You've seen me through a lot recently, including a difficult and emotional move back to the UK after 11 years away. Wow, that's a real stretch, Emma. So I hope things are going OK for you back here. Imagine my surprise, she said this weekend, when I discovered that my 75-year-old dad also listens

to your podcast. Over dinner, we were discussing a recipe for the butter bean hummus I'd made for dinner. Yes, we are that kind of family. And he revealed that he's now a fan of those Waitrose butter beans in jars, thanks to a tip he heard on your program. He listens whilst he prepares his evening meal, a job he took over from my mum when he retired 25 years ago and it really made me smile to think that we've both been listening

to the same thing at the same time without realising it. What a lovely guy. Yeah he sounds like a great chap. Perhaps a tote bag for my dad so that next time he goes shopping for his butter beans he can carry them home in an off-air tote. Well I think we should make the Joint Executive decision that one of our very, very limited tote bags will head off in that direction because it's nice to welcome a decent man, isn't it? And we hope that that spreads really. We're very encouraging of the decent man and certainly it is one mark of decency if you can do something very, very clever with a butter bean.

Oh, I've always said it for you, they are underrated. I believe so, yes. I'm a slightly bigger fan of the black bean. Or you say I'm not. Are you not? I like the small black bean very much. And I find... What do you do with that? Well, just chucking that into a bolognese or any kind of stew or just to liven up an omelette I think they're just really wonderful

really really wonderful because the butter bean can be a little bit... slimy Oh my god, I've never felt that Have you never felt that? No Okay Well I don't mind being corrected.

I do. This is all about quilting and of course there are loads and loads of quilting things going on across the country. This one comes in from Elspeth who is in Cornwall where there are groups of quilters in loads of communities who regularly meet. My group, the Corenza Quilters, meets fortnightly throughout the year in the community hall of a village appropriately named Playing Place. We're a smaller group than pre-pandemic but we've got a vibrant busy membership of

hugely talented women. At each meeting we do a show-and-tell where we all get to see our friends, new makes, historic makes etc. The most amazing work from beautiful quilts to smaller items and they also always make a group quilt which is raffled, proceeds to the local hospice and Jenny wanted to alert my attention to one of the biggest shows for quilters which takes place at the NEC. Every August they fill the NEC with the festival of quilts. It's Europe's largest quilting and patchwork exhibition. So I'm going to head there.

The NEC in Birmingham is where they do that? Wow, OK. It just shows how big the whole thing is, doesn't it? They are so beautiful. I mean, I think we have got... Have we got any... No, one of my daughters has a quilt on her bed that a godparent bought her and it is beautiful.

Yeah. And I slightly wish I had one myself. Oh, okay. There's a hint. If everyone's ready, off you go in time for Christmas. Now, I did mention the steam fair I went to on Sunday morning and Andy says, Jane, those stationary engines you saw, they're often used on farms to run milking machines and similar in the days before mains electricity was readily available.

Thank you. And Marie, who is a very regular correspondent and knows so much stuff. This is really, really good, Marie. Thank you very much indeed. The scene Jane described of a man, hands folded on a substantial stomach, sitting next to a little farting engine did make me laugh. You always see these at rural fairs and agricultural shows. Generally ten or so ruddy-faced chaps in country attire, corralled in a field, sometimes joined by

a rather bored-looking wife or partner, or a lanky lad who's often just a bit too old to be wearing short trousers. I have it on good authority they are Lister petrol engines used for pumping water from a well or stream on a farm but for demonstration purposes only, i.e. at country fairs. They are generally pumping water from one bucket into another whilst attracting admiring glances and chit chat from other interested men. It's a scene which I can only describe as quintessentially English along with the couples who like to exhibit their classic cars. I'm not sure about that. I think classic cars are a global phenomenon, aren't they? I mean they're massive in America.

Yeah. Cars, trucks, that kind of thing. Anyway, Marie, thank you as ever. Speaking of tandems, I didn't know we were. Why is the man always at the front? Anyway, Marie, thank you as ever. Speaking of tandems, I didn't know we were. Why is the man always at the front? Oh, no, I've seen some lady facing forward tandem riding. Yeah, not often, but I think it actually, it was so rare we commented on it, so she's probably got a point.

Yeah, thank you, Marie. I do love your input. Right, dear Jane and Fee, forgive me for being a little delayed. I'm about a week behind on your podcast. I wanted to get in touch because my dad was a submariner during the 1980s. After your discussion about what happens when a submariner has appendicitis, I asked him whether he knew the answer. He responded as follows. Depends on the type of submarine and what they're doing.

A trident submarine carries a fully qualified doctor and they perform any necessary operations at sea. Other submarines only have paramedic types so they'd have to surface and get the casualty off if they can. Otherwise the paramedics will do their best using videos. And fingers crossed for luck. Can I say I use those videos when I'm doing really minor DIY stuff. Yes, me too, like bleeding the radiators. I used mine to try and get a door slam shut and I couldn't get the handle to work so I used a video for that.

Not for appendicitis. No, or worse. Yes. I mean, although appendicitis can be very serious, she said quickly. But do you think there are very... Who's put a video up of an appendectomy on YouTube? I'm not sure. I don't know. And you'd have to hope it wouldn't be, you know, me, amateur hour, vasectomy.

Yes. It wouldn't be one of those people. It would be someone who actually knew what they were doing. Well, obviously that would be very, very useful for doctors who aren't familiar with it, who suddenly need to with it, who suddenly need to do it. It's time thinking about war-torn scenarios. Oh yeah, no, of course.

And obviously in a submarine, but it just seems a bit bizarre. Anyway, Harriet goes on to say, it sounds terrible. I followed up by asking whether there was anaesthetic on board and he responded, yes, the doctors are fully trained to use it and the paramedics get special permission to do so. He said he'd never heard of a paramedic staff submarine not being able to medivac a casualty and that this would only occur if the risk to the submarine and crew being detected was greater than the danger to life.

So that makes sense doesn't it? I asked the reasonable follow-up question which was what happens if somebody dies on board to which he responded, bag the body, put it in a non-flooded torpedo tube and leave it there until you return to harbor. Well I'll tell you what in terms of advertisements for the Royal Navy this is not it. Let's move on. It's not going to make the poster is it? I guess when you do see the armed forces... Join the Navy! They just have a great time. No non-flooded body bags in sight. Absolutely not. Can I just say a really good tip I saw the other day on one of those videos I had and it occurs in all households maybe a couple of times a year.

It's relatively trivial but incredibly annoying when a draw gets jammed, usually with pan lids. Do you know when you've turned them the wrong way up or for whatever reason there's too much stuff? And you can't reach in. My hands are small but even I can't reach in. To pull it back down. You can't, exactly. To achieve the smooth flow. I know this.

Well, I'm here to tell you what works is a wire coat hanger. Okay. So you stick it in and you jostle it about a bit and it takes a bit of effort but within minutes everything is freed. Well the other thing to do is to pull out half pull out the drawer above and reach in that way. What if it's the top drawer? Oh yes that is tricky. That is what happens. happens. Thank you. But should you be keeping your pans in a top drawer?

Well, it's the lids. The lids I keep in the top drawer. Keep the lids in a separate drawer to the actual pan? I should put them on the pan, shouldn't I? Yes. I would. Have we got a guest today? The guest is coming up.

I tell you what, sometimes a bit of a treat. You know, when you pull out all of the drawers and you find all the stuff that's disappeared down the back of the drawers that's just leapt out of particularly the man drawer or whatever. I found our Christmas silver charms the other day. Completely randomly. What are Christmas silver charms? Oh the ones that you put in the Christmas pudding. Do you not put charms in your Christmas pudding? Don't make a pudding. Do you not? Don't like pudding. We can't stand Christmas pudding but we make the Christmas pudding to put the charms in because we're always excited. I still get excited when I get the wedding bells and really give them my history. Look,, Fee, not again.

No they don't. Isn't it Stir up Sunday soon? Well it probably is. Yeah, I think that's four Sundays before Christmas isn't it? Oh, I don't know. Because that's for feeding your pudding or your cake or something. I don't do that. Well we have trifle at Christmas and really as a health tip it's not a good idea to make that eight weeks in advance. Don't, don't, don't do that. Well we have trifle at Christmas and really as a health tip it's not a good idea to make that 8 weeks in advance.

Don't, don't, don't. Final one from me because then our guest is an absolute corker. Sarah is writing in from East London. Okay there's two pleas here, one of them really serious but I think very interesting. So, I love all the guests you have on but I've wanted to ask if you would consider having somebody on to talk about birth trauma. I suffered from birth trauma over a year ago and the impact on me, mostly my mental health, has been devastating. Sarah, we did talk about birth trauma quite a lot on the podcast about a year ago. It may or it may not be helpful to go back and listen to those episodes, but I think it is something that we could certainly

revisit and we could do with having a guest on. So we will look into that. And if we do put a guest on the show, then we will make sure that that guest makes it onto the podcast because it's always helpful to talk about that. And Sarah then goes on to say, like Fee, I'm also an open water swimmer and hearing you chat about the benefits of open water swimming has helped me to start again after having my baby. I swim in the various docks around the Docklands. Most of these are now dry docks and have excellent water quality. Oh sorry, the docks? And lifeguards, so it's safe, yes.

Oh okay. So there's one, you would be able to see it if you crane your neck out of this window. You can swim down here in Docklands and there's another there's another kind of cordoned off bit and it's quite weird because you would have thought this is the Thames further out is the Thames estuary maybe this isn't particularly nice water to swim in because it feels very industrial but Sarah's right the water quality does tend to be incredibly good because they're kind of slightly cordoned off areas. So maybe they're escaping the tidal forces. I don't know that for a fact, but I know they

are checked. So that's always a good thing. And Sarah says, I don't know if many other people, especially mums who do it too, could we arrange a fortunately swim? Jane, and it says Jane does not to join, I think does not have to join, but I'm just going to cross out one word there and say... Can we cross out the name of our old podcast as well? Jane has to join. So I think we could do the most fantastic off-air meet-up and take a bit of an open air dip somewhere.

I think it would be a really lovely thing to do. I did have a wetsuit, I don't know where it is. I would be willing to swim in a wetsuit. OK, but also we could find a heated Lido and we could all bob around in that. I think it would just be a fun thing to do, combine lots of what we are type things. I think you would enjoy it. You know there's a campaign, there was a campaign to get a Lido in Crosby. Oh yes, no I know. You could spearhead that. Oh, I can't spearhead anything else. No, I know. And actually, I'm well overdue a conversation about Lidos with people who

got in touch with us about that. So my apologies. It's been on the list for a very long time. So look, let's see whether or not we could drum up some support for a bit of an off air swim. You're right. The previous podcast has been mentioned. Our feeds being used, isn't it, back at the old place. Yes, we're grateful to you for drawing our attention to this. What can we say about it? I think it's just business, isn't it? It's just the way the world of showbiz rolls. But it's a bit annoying. But it's helping a little-known broadcaster. Indeed. And as you know, we're all about the sisterhood. She's very good as well.

She's very good. And it's Kirsty Young, who cares, let's just mention it. And I think she's terrific. And also, I think she's had a really, really hard time health-wise over the last couple of years. So it's lovely that she's back. But this is the feed you need for this podcast. To the merry old band of Trumps who are not the world's happiest family. Yeah I bet you're

really surprised to hear that. Fred and Mary Trump are the children of Donald Trump's older brother also called Fred, keep up at the back, and they're not very keen on Uncle Donald. There have been over the years some legal battles over financial matters and both Mary and Fred have written books about the family very keen on Uncle Donald. There have been over the years some legal battles over financial matters and both Mary and Fred have written books about the family Trump. Mary's 2020 tome was called Too Much and Never Enough. Fred's new book is called All in the Family, the Trumps and How We Got This Way. So you probably get the picture of family gatherings, Shay Trump can be a little bit strained. I talked to Fred Trump Junior, it's not the easiest, I talked to Fred Trump Junior

last week, he remember is the nephew of Donald Trump and we talked about his family relations inevitably. Fred has three children with his wife Lisa and their youngest child William was born with a rare genetic variant known as KCNQ2. William will need round the clock care for the rest of his life. And that is significant because the way Donald Trump treats William and treats his condition tells you quite a lot about Donald Trump. Here's Fred Trump then talking about his late father, Donald's older brother. This incredible dynamic you have within the family and also importantly the place of your dad, Fred, who was the oldest son of your grandparents.

Yeah, dad was the second oldest child but the the oldest son, and he had a dream to becoming an airline pilot. He was very much the black sheep of the family, a free spirit, loved by all, but he didn't want a part of the family business, which my grandfather couldn't understand. And Donald certainly demeaned my father for not only wanting to become an airline pilot, but it led to my father's alcoholism. Now, I don't know if you have the show Succession over in the UK, but the premise basically is three children are looking to take over the father's business. My father wanted no part of that. In fact,

he gave Donald the entree way to be working with my grandfather and getting what Donald wanted. Again, my father wanted no part. But dad was looked down upon that. In fact, with that paired with his heavy drinking, he became the embarrassment of the family, if you will, even though he was the one with the most personality and empathy of any of them. And it wasn't a family that was, shall we say, overburdened with empathy. Your grandfather, also called Fred, was, well, frankly, he comes across as something of an ogre. Have I got that right? There was not much hugging and kissing going on in the family, that's for sure. It was a very unemotional dynamic within the family, other than with, frankly, my mother and my

father who were very caring to us. But my grandfather pitted each child against each other. And that may have been the way he was brought up, I don't know. But that's what he did. Each child was pitted against the other to see who would come out on top. And you could choose what you want to define as on top, but in Donald's mind he became the star of the family. There is no doubt that the birth of your son William, obviously hugely significant for you and your immediate family, but the reaction of the rest of the Trumps is very, very telling. Just describe how it all unfolded. William was born, well, typically, typical birth, first day was absolutely fine. And then all of a sudden issues arose and William started having hundreds of seizures a day. And he was between

three hospitals, he was in a neonatal intensive care unit for seven total weeks. Not once did any of my aunts or uncles who lived very close to the first hospital he was in in Manhattan, did they ever come to visit or even call. Except one time, and if you've gotten past this part of the story, I went to dinner. My grandmother actually reached out to me because I reached out to her, said, I have some relatives in from Scotland, would you mind having dinner? You and Lisa should probably go out and just have some time away from the hospital. And we did. And as we walked into the restaurant towards our table, Donald and Melania were to our left. I still can envision it perfectly. He just said without standing up or coming over to us, hey, I hear your kid's really

sick. That was that. When William came home a while later, I received a letter from Donald's attorney saying, in essence, that my sister and I were taken out of my grandfather's will. In the end, it was Donald who had hatched a plan to do that because he was in very bad financial straits at the time. Bankruptcies, it was so embarrassing that the banks had to put him on an allowance. But the real telling part about Donald's character was when my father died in 1981, Donald was

named my trustee. I take that to mean that you're going to protect the interest of the person you're the trustee for, and that was me and my family. Donald did the exact opposite. In fact, he trod upon the memory of his dead brother. He took advantage of his father who had dementia and he basically attacked me during the most vulnerable time of my life, while my son was at home still fighting for his life. It all is deeply unpleasant and we should say this is all, well at what stage of his political career was your uncle Donald at this time?

Oh, when William was in the early 2000s, he had always taught... I mean, he was very involved in politics, the local politicians mostly to try to get benefit for his business like anybody else in Manhattan does. I certainly can't hold that against Donald, everybody does it. But his real ambitions started probably in the late 2000s. I know in 2011, he kind of threw his name out there and he was rising in the polls. And he finally decided that, you know, a popular president in Obama, it wasn't the time for him. Is it true, I know you write about this in the book, that it was the roast, it was the roasting your uncle got from Obama at a formal dinner that properly concentrated his mind on the idea of running for the presidency. Yes, it was at the annual correspondence dinner where the President of the United States gets

roasted by a host, I think it was Seth Meyers that year. And Donald was in the audience. And actually I was in this room where I'm speaking to you right now with my wife watching it. And when Obama started going after Donald and they pant, I said to her, that's it. They awoke the sleeping giant. There was no way Donald was going to let that go. And he made it his mission to get back at Obama. At what point, perhaps it wasn't until election night in 2016, but at what point did the family realize that this

man was going to become US President? Well certainly Donald's children wanted it to happen. I'm not going to speak for the rest of us, although Mary certainly has voiced her own opinion. I didn't think he was going to do it. And as much as Donald hates to be labeled a loser, I'm not so sure he wanted to win either. We kind of joked that it was a branding exercise for him, just a way to make money on it. Little did we know that he was probably going to make more money while in office and then when he left office. But I never really thought he was going to win up until that early morning when Hillary Clinton gave in and gave his concession speech to him. You voted for Hillary Clinton, didn't you?

I did. Even though I still say she was a flawed candidate and ran a poor campaign, as well as she knew Donald, she didn't know as well as I do. If there's two things Donald and I share is a love for golf, and we are relentless, and there was no way anything Hillary Clinton could match his energy. And in the end, that's why he won. Yeah. There are some interesting photographs in the book of you with your uncle in the Oval Office. So presumably you were back on reasonable terms with him, were you, when he was elected to the presidency?

Yes, after our lawsuit was settled in 2000, we, Donald invited me to become an honorary member at his golf course in Westchester, which is 20 minutes from where I live here. And I said, the only way I would do that is if we played a round of golf together. And we did. And we played dozens and dozens of times over the years. And when the round was over, we had lunch and as we're leaving in the parking lot, he said, we're done, right? And many people say done. Does that mean that's the end of your relationship? And no, it wasn't. It was his way of saying, let's bury the hatchet and move forward. And we did for many years. And when he became president, I knew and my wife Lisa knew that this was our chance to, on a more national level advocate on behalf of people with disabilities. And we started literally

three months after he was inaugurated. We started meeting with cabinet secretaries and other government officials culminating in what is now, I guess, become somewhat of a famous meeting in the Oval Office where I escorted a group called Equally Alive, just a wonderful group of MDs and other professionals that we spoke to. Alex Azar, who was the head of Health and Human Services, and it culminated in the meeting in the Oval Office. And after 45 minutes, we thought we made some progress. Meeting ended, Donald called me back in, greeted me with his familiar, hey pal, how's it going? We chatted for a minute or so and he said, you know, those people, meaning the disabled

community, those people, all the expenses, they should just die. And it was something I really couldn't respond to at the time. I wasn't expecting that at all because part of the meeting was to figure out a way how do you lessen the expenses and yet get better services for this very large population in this country, 60, 70 million people. So that was very disconcerting to say the least. And in the end, nothing came about it. And just to get back to the character issue, if you don't mind, Jane, it would have been gracious of Donald if he said after he was elected, you know what, I know what you and Lisa are going through with William. I know you're advocating on behalf of millions of people.

Whatever you need, you've got it. Yeah. That would have been nice. Well, was I happy to do it on my own and go that way? Sure. But it would have been great if he, from the very beginning, just backed us up. So where we are now, it's relatively early October of 2024, he could win the presidency again. Yes.

And I imagine that you'll be voting for his opponent again. Yes. Are you any... I'm not very clear. Do you think Kamala Harris is a better candidate than Hillary Clinton was? Yes, I think she's a better candidate. I think it in a way it's benefited her for having a short amount of time to ramp up her campaign and she's doing so.

Reading the book, your uncle Donald Trump comes across as mean-spirited, cruel, thoughtless, a man who will always clutch victory from the jaws of defeat or actually just claim victory when in fact he hasn't won. We all know what he's done. Never admits defeat. Right, okay. He's also a convicted felon. He's been found liable in a civil court for a sexual assault. He routinely tells lies, he makes things up and his public speeches, his appearances are quite incoherent and often rambling. I mean, do you think he's all right? I always have to disclaim I am no physician, so I have no right to make a clinical diagnosis. I can just say that my grandfather, his father, suffered serious dementia for years. His first cousin, John Walters, also had dementia.

And my Aunt Mary Ann, his older sister at the end of her life, absolutely exhibited signs of dementia. Now, I say that just from anecdotes of living through my grandfather's year long battle with it. My other grandfather, my mom's father also had dementia. So I know what it looks like. Yes, his ramblings, his speeches now are almost twice as long as they used to be. He's again, not a clinical psychologist or an MD, but he's cursing a lot, which I understand happens when people get really old and disoriented. So he is a different person certainly than when I knew him growing up. There's no doubt about that. He's always been full on, but it's getting sad to watch him. He looks tired and the vile things that are

coming from him now embarrassing for me and my tight family here. Yes, but the plain fact is, Fred, he could win again. I suppose that's what amazes so many of us is that he is in a position where it isn't inconceivable that for all his faults and all his obvious frailties he could still win. Yes. And I can't understand it. I just, his base isn't going anywhere. It doesn't matter what you say to them. And Donald's a genius at that too. He started off as a populist like, hey, I'm here to back you up. And people bought it hook, line, and sinker. And they believe all the lies that he throws out there. It's a country that I never thought I would be living in right now, but it is. And we've got to

get through it and move forward. And only Kamala Harris can move us forward in a civil positive way. And when you see people like Elon Musk, for example, attaching, he's attached himself very firmly to the Trump cause. Does that worry you too? Sure. I mean, just think of all the government contracts Elon Musk's company has. SpaceX and Starlink and military contracts. Yeah, it's disturbing. And he's a man of huge influence, and yet he still will throw out the lies that this will be the, if Donald loses, that's the last election that's ever going to happen. I guess we've been taught to call that projection, meaning that they're saying that about the Democrats when it's actually the Republicans are the ones that stand the chance of ruining

and changing our democracy or ending it. Are you sleeping well at the moment, Fred? I mean, I don't know what your personal situation is, but I mean, there are lots of us over this side of the Atlantic who frankly are a little bit frazzled about events in the world generally. This is not an easy time anywhere. And I think there is a lot of concern about what might happen in the American election. Are you fearful? Yes, I am. I absolutely am. And you can see it's starting already where some local election boards are saying, okay,

if Donald loses, we're not going to certify that. I foresee sort of the same way it started last time in 2000, I'm sorry, 2020. Just it'll turn into a judicial process and God forbid it goes into something violent again. There's no place for violence in this country or in any country, be it political or otherwise. But yes, I am very fearful. And the only way I guess that could be prevented is if Donald Trump wins, which could happen, or if Kamala Harris wins by a big enough number and wins the Electoral College so that it couldn't be challenged even by Donald Trump's most fervent supporters. But to be honest, that doesn't seem like a likely prospect, does it? A thumping Kamala Harris win?

No, it doesn't seem likely. And I'll push back a little bit, Jane, even if she has a significant victory, he's not going to give in right away. It's just not going to happen. I know him too well. It won't happen. For those who know me, I'm a huge Godfather fan. I think what's going to have to happen is yes, some decisive win, but I think it's going to be the Republican Party just having

enough of all the losses under Donald during midterm elections and things of that nature. There's a great scene where Michael Corleone's father's closest friend says, you know, you need a war every five or 10 years. And I don't mean a physical war. I mean, there's got to be a way to cleanse the blood out of the Republican Party. This is a two party system. I get it. That's the way we were founded. We need two healthy parties. We have one that is not healthy right now. But is JD Vance in a position where he could play the role of Mike Pence? Let's say Kamala Harris does win, your Uncle Donald isn't prepared to concede and JD Vance plays the role of Mr. Reasonable and says that we have to concede and then that puts him in the box seat to be the next Republican

candidate. What do you think about that? I have yet to see anything reasonable about JD Vance. I think he will do what he's not only said but intimated. He will not necessarily play the role of Mike Pence. And it took quite a bit to get Mike Pence to do what he did. I mean, first of all, what he did was great, but that was his job. That was his only job was to certify that election. Yeah. Okay. We all need to understand that.

When Fred, I've got to finish now in a second, I know, but when did you last speak to your uncle, Fred? The day he said that my son should just die. Right. You've never exchanged a word since. By the way, I don't blame you, but that was the last time. Yeah, that was the last time. Fred Trump and his book is called All In The Family. The American election gets closer, but somehow it always just seems that bit further away. Every day I wake up and think, will it be over soon? And the answer is not for a couple of weeks yet. I know that it doesn't

hugely impact on us we have the luxury don't we of being observers from across an ocean but I'm terrified of this result are you terrified of it? I know it's not it's not it's not an exaggeration to say that I do sometimes wake up in the night thinking about it. You say it'll have no impact. It'll have an impact on practically everybody on the planet in some way. Yes, but it doesn't impact our safety. But there's a feeling that for people who are in the States, there's a lot that could impact their safety. There's just this hinterland, isn't there, of what might happen. Either way, either way, it's a very odd feeling isn't it? It is and frankly the more I read, the more I hear, the more baffled and bemused I become.

So anyway we're grateful to Fred for being a part of the Times Radio Show and the podcast Off Air. Thank you for listening and we love hearing from you as I hope you know. Jane and Fee at times.radio. Goodbye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day Monday to Thursday 2-4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app.

Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.